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I just reverted the addition of a section added by 1990'sguy ( talk · contribs) on "government style and deregulation" per WP:SS, but forgot to put an edit summary explaining this. -- Scjessey ( talk) 11:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Here is what I wish to add, as a sub-section to the "Domestic policy" section:
On January 23, 2017, in a Presidential Memorandum, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze of the civilian work force in the executive branch, preventing federal agencies, except for the offices of the new presidential appointees, national security, the military and public safety, from filling vacant positions. [1] [2] On January 30, 2017, Trump signed Executive Order 13771, which directed federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every one new regulation, and to do so in such a way that the total cost of regulations does not increase. [3] [4] On February 24, 2017, Trump signed an order requiring all federal agencies to create task forces to look at and determine which regulations hurt the U.S. economy. [5] Reuters described the order as "what may be the most far reaching effort to pare back U.S. red tape in recent decades." [5]
On February 28, 2017, Trump announced he did not intend on filling many of the numerous governmental positions that were still vacant, as he considered them unnecessary. [6]
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This is a shortened form of what I added to Presidency of Donald Trump. I really don't mind making changes to the specifics of this proposal, but I do think we should mention Trump's positions and actions concerning deregulation and size of government in this article. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 03:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
I think my proposal above could have been worded better, and I did find some new relevant info.
Trump has strongly favored a smaller-sized federal government and deregulation through his policies as president. In the first six weeks of his tenure as President, Trump abolished over 90 regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution on February 14, 2017 – the Act had only been successfully used once before in its history. [3]
Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze on January 23, 2017. [4] [5] He signed Executive Order 13771 on January 30, 2017, which directed federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every one new regulation, and to do so in such a way that the total cost of regulations does not increase. [6] [7] On February 24, 2017, Trump signed an order requiring all federal agencies to create task forces to look at and determine which regulations hurt the U.S. economy, something which Reuters described as "what may be the most far reaching effort to pare back U.S. red tape in recent decades." [8]
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I guess this section could be in the "100 days" section if it is more appropriate there, but I think it would preferrably go into the "Domestic policy" section. This deregulation/government size section would be updated through his presidency. Once again, I don't really care about the specifics about this proposal. I think it is relevant to add, however. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 21:18, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Proposal #2.3 (responding to comments by Scjessey and Casprings)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation issued. [6] [7] The order has been described as populist theater and condemned as "just plain dumb". [8] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [9]
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1,024 characters -> 684 777. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 08:49, 9 March 2017 (UTC) 03:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
@ 1990'sguy: Everyone has their own point of view, but the view that Trump's deregulation executive order is "stupid" is near universal, with only the most extreme "small government" types supporting it. Reliable sources all say it is a dumb idea. -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [6] [7] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [8]
Defenders of administrative agencies have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [9]
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884 characters. Graf 3 attempts to paraphrase the most relevant passage in the new TIME cover story, "Trump's War on Washington". (Can't say I agree with the author's analysis, but it does accurately summarize what the reputable mainstream opposition is saying.) -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 06:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] In a letter signed by 137 organizations, interest groups warned Trump that Americans would "be exposed to more health, safety, environmental and financial dangers." [1] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] The head of the GAO criticized the move, saying past hiring freezes "haven't proven to be effective in reducing costs and [can] cause some problems if they're in effect for a long period of time." [6] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [7] [8] The order was described as "arbitrary" and "not implementable" by Harvard law professor Jody Freeman. [9] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [10]
Defenders of administrative agencies have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [11]
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It's a little longer, but it addresses the neutrality concerns I have. -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
All the sections I compared were within the "Presidency" section. It really would look bad if we add a section with all the criticism when even more controversial issues do not have as much listed criticism. Also, the proposal that you support is about as long as the section in Presidency of Donald Trump. The section here wouldn't be much of a summary. For those reasons, I support the condensed #2. I see that more editors support #3.1, so I will not fight it anymore. It's just a waste of my time. However, I still believe #3.1 is not a good choice. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 03:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. He became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [1] During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [2] [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] The Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office told a House committee that hiring freezes have not proven to be effective in reducing costs. [6] Unlike some past freezes, however, the current freeze bars agencies from adding contractors to make up for employees leaving. [6]
A week later Trump signed Executive Order 13771, directing administrative agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [7] [8] Harvard Law professor Jody Freeman said that the order
was not implementable andwould do no more than slow the regulatory process, because itwas written so as todid not block rules required by statute. [9] Nearly 140 interest groups wrote Trump a letter saying that US citizens did not vote to be exposed to more health, safety, environmental and financial dangers. [2] inconsistent undue weight? – discussOn February 24, 2017, Trump ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [10] Agency defenders have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [11]
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1,359 characters -> 1,531. (Adds balancing information from article about GAO comment; expands Freeman's quote for clarity.) -> 1,488. (Trim longest sentence, no substantive change in meaning; full ref quote given in citation.) Tag last sentence in graf 3 for apparent inconsistency with last sentence in graf 4 and for question of undue weight. Are the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, National Center for Transgender Equality, or National LGBTQ Task Force recognized as authorities on whether Trump voters are willing to "be exposed to more dangers" in return for, say, more money or personal freedom? -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 02:23, 11 March 2017 (UTC) 23:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC) 09:17, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Everything that this man does as president CANNOT be included in his BLP. Not even a paragraph. This page is WP:NOTNEWS. Put these proposed edits on the presidency page, not here. This page is his BLP. That means his life, not his presidency. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:37, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Scjessey: Please stop attacking. Your comments are almost always disruptive, filled as they are with your obvious bias. SW3 5DL ( talk) 15:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@ JFG: Proposal #2.4 is about as neutral as it gets - it has 0 controversy. However, it has been rejected on the grounds that not covering the controversy wouldn't be a complete and accurate coverage of the topic of Trump's Presidency, even if we try to make it as brief as possible. 69.165.196.103 ( talk) 03:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I checked the list of "nearly 140 interest groups" who wrote the letter to Trump. They include the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, Family Equality Council, National Center for Lesbian Rights, National Center for Transgender Equality, National LGBTQ Task Force, and Trevor Project. Are these interest groups (or, indeed, the other 131) widely held to be authorities on such matters as whether Trump voters did indeed register their willingness to be "exposed to more dangers" -- in return for, say, more jobs or personal freedom? (The Hegelian dialectic might come in handy here.) I propose that we just omit the material and keep the other, more authoritative analyses by recognized experts at Harvard and Yale Law Schools. This would bring us down to 191 words, with no loss of significant information. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 09:13, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. He became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before.[1] During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations.[2][3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze.[4][5] The Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office told a House committee that hiring freezes have not proven to be effective in reducing costs.[6] Unlike some past freezes, however, the current freeze bars agencies from adding contractors to make up for employees leaving.[6]
A week later Trump signed Executive Order 13771, directing administrative agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue.[7][8] Harvard Law professor Jody Freeman said that the order would do no more than slow the regulatory process, because it did not block rules required by statute.[9]
On February 24, 2017, Trump ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy.[10] Agency defenders expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups.[11]
Maybe the best use of our time would be to get consensus on the structure of the personal life section, so we can add it to the list of consensuses at the top of this talk page. I am open to changes. Here is what the structure currently is:
1 Personal life
1.1 Early life 1.2 Ancestry 1.3 Education 1.4 Family 1.5 Religious views 1.6 Health 1.7 Net worth
Does anyone have a proposal how to change this, or not? Anythingyouwant ( talk) 06:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
On the contrary to something I said? I said a header like "Marriage and children" instead of "family" is "too narrow". I didn't say it's not specific enough, quite the opposite. As to the rest of your comment, we have a lot of flexibility, so we don't have to do everything that's "standard" in the same standard way. But, in this BLP, how about if we re-name "early life" to "early life and education", and merge the education stuff into it? Like this:
1. Personal life
1.1 Early life and education 1.2 Ancestry 1.3 Family 1.4 Religious views 1.5 Health 1.6 Net worth
If that's not satisfactory then I support leaving it as-is (see first comment in this section) or simply removing the "early life" subheader so that its contents are a preamble to the "Personal life" section. Any of these three ways would be fine with me. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 17:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Ancestry makes no sense. It seems to be there only to support the 17th century claim about Drumpf. Which apparently is false anyway. Nobody's got 'ancestry' in their BLP. It's not like he's a member of the Royal family and we're tracing his lineage. SW3 5DL ( talk) 02:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
1 Personal life 1.1 Ancestry 1.2 Education 1.3 Family 1.4 Religion 1.5 Health 1.6 Wealth
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:14, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
This section currently has this structure:
2.4 Legal affairs, business bankruptcies, and personal taxes 2.4.1 Legal affairs 2.4.2 Business bankruptcies 2.4.3 Taxes
I'd like to change the last subheader to "Personal taxes". Also, please note that the article Legal affairs of Donald Trump includes business bankruptcies and personal taxes. So, I suggest we change the main header (2.4) to "Legal affairs", and simply remove the first subheader (2.4.1) so that its contents are a preamble at the start of section 2.4. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 16:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The annual Forbes 2017 list is out and I made adjustments to the article. The consensus at the top of this page should be edited. Objective3000 ( talk) 18:49, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
I made changes in the Education section and removed the use of passive voice. I also clarified the reason Trump's parents sent him to military school. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
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His full name is Donald John Trump, not Donald John Trump, Sr. -- 219.79.97.163 ( talk) 03:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template. —
IVORK
Discuss 03:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)Here are two pertinent guidelines:
The most relevant example seems to be that of John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy Jr.. Therefore, I support removal of the "Sr." Anythingyouwant ( talk) 04:16, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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Family section: The couple divorced in 1992 following Trump's affair with actress Marla Maples. 219.79.97.163 ( talk) 06:27, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a quality-driven American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States.
Please change 'an American businessman' to 'a quality-driven American businessman', because quality is an important aspect of the man, Donald Trump, whom this article is about. As a businessman, every company and building he has constructed has been quality-driven. He has demanded quality from every last person who has worked for or with him, and the quality of the American government has become his most recent goal.
Thank You! 76.11.118.30 ( talk) 13:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
We shall take it under advisement, and thank you for stopping by to comment. For your future reference, please be aware of Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Take care, and carry on.🇺🇸 And hello to everyone up there in Nova Scotia.😉 Anythingyouwant ( talk) 06:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the sentence "Trump refers to his ghostwritten book..." (Religion section), please add link [[Ghostwriter|ghostwritten]]. Uncle Roy ( talk) 11:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
I haven't looked into the editing history to see who was responsible, but what the hell is this?
His mother's Scottish grandfather, Donald Smith, had gone done with his fishing boat in 1868.
Gone done with his fishing boat? -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
There's another topic: "Drumpf". Since I am not allowed to change it myself at the moment, please read Talk:Frederick_Trump#Update:_The_legend_of_Hanns_Drumpf_.2817th_century.29 and maybe compare other relevant articles. Blair's book was first published in 2000 and it is still outstanding, but what might have seemed plausible to her almost 20 years ago is no more tenable today. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 23:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Mentioning the "uncertain" spelling change looks undue. Every family name that goes back centuries has been changed or spelled in different ways over time; this detail has no place in the BLP of a contemporary person. I will remove it unless somebody has a strong objection. — JFG talk 20:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
If it seems to be relevant that DT said he was "proud of his German heritage" then it should also be mentioned that in The Art of the Deal (1987) he asserted to be of Swedish descent instead. And more interesting than his participation at the Steuben Parade (does anybody know about this seemingly important event?) would be when and why he changed his opinion from denial to proudness. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 02:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Now some minor mistakes have occurred in this section. Kallstadt was and still is not a town but just a small village. And Donald's grandfather was officially named Friedrich when he came to NY at age 16, but later (at least since 1892 when he became a US citizen) Frederick. (Non-officially, he was called Fritz in the German-speaking milieu he still preferred in Queens.) -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 21:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC) Anything's recent edit "small town" is still not correct. It is a village and in Germany, the difference is well defined. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 02:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Anyone tired of quibbling over a word here and there, and wish they could do some actual article work? If so, here's an opportunity to do just that. I recently found out that we have no article on Trump's current foreign policy positions. The article Foreign policy of Donald Trump is just supposed to be about his positions as a candidate. His positions as president are supposed to go in a separate article called Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. I have started trying to put together such an article but it's a big job. The first step, currently under way, is to reduce and adapt the material in the "foreign policy of Donald Trump" article so that it becomes a fairly brief "during the campaign" introduction to each subject. After we complete that, we will undertake to add his current positions. This is all going on at a draft where you are welcome to help. Click here to find out how. Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the build up to a very heated election lots of interviews and journalists claimed that donald trump had no friends and small hands Judlebog500 ( talk) 18:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the Ancestry section it says:
Might it be better to say,
I have reliable sources for this edit. Please support or oppose this suggested edit. Thank you. SW3 5DL ( talk) 01:22, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please rewrite the lead of this biography, to fulfill its purpose to encourage readers to read the entire article. Wouldn't it be an honor if Wikipedia could be proud of it? Maybe one of you can suggest another guideline to follow than this one which seems to be weak and incomplete: WP:MOSBIO. Like maybe WP:LEAD. For starters:
Thank you. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
“ | Trump has emphasized improving border security and infrastructure, ensuring that international trade is not just free but fair, reducing federal regulations and taxes, and combatting the most dangerous foes of the United States such as ISIS. His positions have been described by scholars and commentators as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. | ” |
I agree the lead needs to be rewritten, with removal of unnecessary details about content, that is supposed anyway to be covered sufficiently in the article. 69.165.196.103 ( talk) 01:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The lead looks like something to be proud of. I'm just getting ready to archive this thread. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:37, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Can someone give me a link to the discussion where it was decided not to put the person's religion in most infoboxes (unless it was a significant part of their notability, or whatever the wording was)? There is someone going around adding religion to dozens if not hundreds of infoboxes. I have asked them to stop, but I'd like to be able to cite the discussion where consensus was reached. Anyone have that link? Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
The following paragraph needs to be removed from the article because the article is about Donald Trump, not his ancestry. Grandfathers and Grandmothers are viable topics but need to be covered in their own articles or Trump Family article. Please note the treatment of the grandfathers and grandmothers in other similar bios such as former President Barack Obama: "His paternal grandfather, Friedrich Trump, first emigrated to the United States in 1885 (aged 16), became a citizen in 1892, and amassed a fortune operating boom-town restaurants and boarding houses in the Seattle area and the Klondike region of Canada, during the gold rush.[5] On a visit to his home village, he met Elisabeth Christ and married her in 1902. After two years in New York City, the couple returned to Kallstadt but were ordered to leave in 1905 because Friedrich had missed military service, so they settled in New York definitively.[6][7][8] He died from the flu pandemic of 1918 and Elizabeth incorporated the family real estate business, Elizabeth Trump and Son, which would later become The Trump Organization." Please remove from article, for undue weight, off topic.-- SlackerDelphi ( talk) 20:28, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
This sentence,
"The pastor at that church, Norman Vincent Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking and The Art of Living, ministered to Trump's family and mentored him until Peale's death in 1993.[55][54] Trump, who describes himself as a Presbyterian,[56] has cited Peale and his works during interviews when asked about the role of religion in his personal life."
does not illuminate the reader on why mention of Norman Vincent Peale is important in the article. This isn't about Peale, it is about the influence that Peale had on Trump's thinking and his positive outlook in everything he does. The sentence as is, makes Peale the actor and Trump the 'acted upon,' or passive receiver of being 'ministered to,' But how did he 'minister' to Trump? What did Trump get out of that?. I tried to correct this but it was reverted in a rollback. Also, note that the only book that matters there is The Power of Positive Thinking. It is this book that Trump frequently refers to when discussing his outlook and his belief that he can do anything he sets his mind to.
Any suggestions? There are plenty of sources to show the relationship between Trump and Peale. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
It isn't clear at all because it's about Peale, not Trump's use of Peale's philosophy. What does 'ministering to' even mean? SW3 5DL ( talk) 14:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
He is Presbyterian per Glueck, Katie. "Trump's religious dealmaking pays dividends", Politico (December 7, 2016). So, I have made this change. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 23:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
You don't see why we use this Politico article? Obviously, we use it so that we can say "Trump is Presbyterian" instead of the previous drivel ("Trump describes himself as a Presbyterian"). Here is what the BLP says now:
“ | Trump, who is Presbyterian....
[1]
[2] References
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” |
Do you object to saying he is Presbyterian? Do you object to supporting that statement with footnotes? I do not understand what the problem with using Politico is. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 15:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting at all that the sentence be added to. I'm saying it's needs to be rewritten. In fact, the whole section needs a rewrite. It rambles, and too much is written about Norman Vincent Peale and his books and his 'ministering.' It should be concise, and it should not have previous mention of his ancestors being Lutherans which had no effect on Trump. It should start and end with Donald Trump. And the mention of his marriage at the Marble Collegiate Church is already mentioned in the "Family" section. Lots of redundancy, and too much lack of focus, and poorly written. SW3 5DL ( talk) 19:05, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Personally I think "describes himself as Presbyterian" is the best way to put it. The fact is, he is no more a Presbyterian than Richard Nixon was a Quaker. Nixon probably never went to a Quaker meeting in his adult life, but his mother was Quaker so that's what he said. Trump was confirmed in the Presbyterian church as a teenager, so that's what he says - even though he is basically nonreligious. His public statements reveal that he knows next to nothing about the Christian faith he supposedly professes. He does not attend church with any kind of consistency, and when he does need a church (say to get married) he chooses any old church that is handy. Presidents are expected to have a religion, and if they are basically nonreligious they apply a family label to themselves, and that is what Trump has done. "Describes himself" is the most accurate way to convey this. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
LORD
to judge the sincerity of his professed beliefs -- not us sinners. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 04:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)Just wanted to start a discussion on how much WP:WEIGHT the article should give to the fact that the FBI has an open investigation collusion with Russia. An open federal investigation concerning his current administration is historically significant. Should this be given more weight in the article? Should we expand and make more prominent the sections on Trump's ties with Russia? As this unfolds, this seems like what is most likely to be relevant 10 years from now. Casprings ( talk) 20:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Casprings: This seems to be covered in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. It would seem perhaps a paragraph but only if there is consensus to include it at this time. SW3 5DL ( talk) 22:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Daily Mail has been determined to be an unreliable source: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=764420952#Daily_Mail_RfC
We need another source for the claim that Trump was an early supporter of Reagan. Seeing history, an editor mentions "The Daily Mail citation was not the first in the article" but I am unsure what was meant (I left a message on user's talk page) -- I do not see another citation for this claim, but perhaps I am overlooking something? In any event, if there is another source for this claim, we should use that source rather than the Daily Mail which I believe is unacceptable in these circumstances. Adlerschloß ( talk) 10:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
This sentence:
"Trump's father Fred was born in the Bronx, and worked with his mother since he was 15 as a real estate developer in New York City, eventually building and selling thousands of houses, barracks and apartments."
New York City is often considered Manhattan, even though NYC is made up of the five boroughs, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, The Bronx, and Staten Island. The sentence might be better if it clarified that Fred Trump focused on Queens and Brooklyn. Also, "selling thousands of houses, barracks, and apartments," is confusing. He did his work in stages, and was very much affected by World War II. There were no new housing starts then, unless it was contracted by the War Department for housing for workers. Trump got a contract for garden apartments for workers at naval shipyards in Chester, Pennsylvania and Newport News, Virginia. After the war, Fred built affordable housing for returning soldiers. He did not build 'thousands of houses.' He did build some single family homes, but for the most part, he built apartment high-rises, and while he sold some as condos, he kept ownership of most of the other buildings and collected rents. He built all of those in Queens and Brooklyn. He never built anything in Manhattan. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
There's still another point I would like to discuss: It is not common sense that Donald's grandfather Frederick "skipped" the military service in Bavaria. Blair describes what happened at length in The Trumps. When young Friedrich left for NY, military service was no matter at all. And he later convincingly assured that he never had planned to go back to Germany. Only after his young wife had got severely homesick in NY, he gave up his own plans, returned to Kallstadt, where everybody was happy about that, and than was astonished about the reaction of the (somehow foreign) Bavarian authorities that were only interested in militarian aspects. A quite enormous correspondence ensued, with all the Palatinian parties being on Trump's side, but it ended with a − questionable − verdict.
This might have been not so important here but, as it was, Donald's father Fred would have been born in Kallstadt if the Bavarian authorities would habe been not so stubborn. Elizabeth was in the 5th month when they were forced to leave Germany. Interesting for the readers of this BLP or not? Given Donald's radical attitude towards immigrants? -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 03:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Klaus Frisch: Given the political changes in the Palatinate region between 1885 and 1905, would it be correct to say "the new Bavarian authorities" instead of simply "the authorities"? — JFG talk 05:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I object to the edit. It's not informative at all. Brooklyn and Queens, what is not clear about Fred Trump staying there? What does, "boroughs outside Manhattan" mean precisely? Why can't the article say, Brooklyn and Queens? What's to hide there? SW3 5DL ( talk) 17:12, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the "Swedish" family lie, maintained for two generations, and embellished by Donald himself? They lied that they were Swedish. No mention at all? That smacks of censorship, especially since Donald himself embellished the lie. -- BullRangifer ( talk) 05:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
In an article entitled "The Swedish Whopper: Donald Trump's Long-standing Struggle With the Truth," the Trump family lie is revealed to be their claim, maintained for two generations, that they are Swedish, when in fact they are Germans. Donald's father, Fred Trump, "for a reason that has never been disclosed, began telling people that he was Swedish." [1] The lie was repeated by Fred's son Donald, who, in The Art of the Deal (1987), repeated and embellished the lie by claiming that Friedrich Trump, "came here from Sweden as a child," [2] even though he left his family and emigrated from his home town, Kallstadt, Germany, in 1885, when he was 16 years old. [3] Wayne Barrett confirmed that Donald also claimed that his own father, Fred Trump, was "born in New Jersey to Swedish parents; in fact, he was born in the Bronx to German parents." [4]
BullRangifer ( talk) 06:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
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Not important enough for this article. It would take a full paragraph to explain all of this, in an article that is already way longer than ideal. Donald Trump ultimately set the record straight and IMO this is not a significant aspect of his biography. -- MelanieN ( talk) 13:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Scjessey and SPECIFICO:, I agree. It can be put into one sentence and should be mentioned, especially as I've been studying the Barack Obama article. It's FA and we need more editors from there to get this article to that level. They've got the experience and judgment over the last 8 years in what should and should not be included and how best to do that. Fred Trump was mindful of German resentment and did everything he could to keep it from hurting his business and rightly so. Yes, this belongs. It's significant. Support inclusion. SW3 5DL ( talk) 13:58, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | → | Archive 60 |
I just reverted the addition of a section added by 1990'sguy ( talk · contribs) on "government style and deregulation" per WP:SS, but forgot to put an edit summary explaining this. -- Scjessey ( talk) 11:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Here is what I wish to add, as a sub-section to the "Domestic policy" section:
On January 23, 2017, in a Presidential Memorandum, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze of the civilian work force in the executive branch, preventing federal agencies, except for the offices of the new presidential appointees, national security, the military and public safety, from filling vacant positions. [1] [2] On January 30, 2017, Trump signed Executive Order 13771, which directed federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every one new regulation, and to do so in such a way that the total cost of regulations does not increase. [3] [4] On February 24, 2017, Trump signed an order requiring all federal agencies to create task forces to look at and determine which regulations hurt the U.S. economy. [5] Reuters described the order as "what may be the most far reaching effort to pare back U.S. red tape in recent decades." [5]
On February 28, 2017, Trump announced he did not intend on filling many of the numerous governmental positions that were still vacant, as he considered them unnecessary. [6]
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This is a shortened form of what I added to Presidency of Donald Trump. I really don't mind making changes to the specifics of this proposal, but I do think we should mention Trump's positions and actions concerning deregulation and size of government in this article. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 03:22, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
I think my proposal above could have been worded better, and I did find some new relevant info.
Trump has strongly favored a smaller-sized federal government and deregulation through his policies as president. In the first six weeks of his tenure as President, Trump abolished over 90 regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution on February 14, 2017 – the Act had only been successfully used once before in its history. [3]
Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze on January 23, 2017. [4] [5] He signed Executive Order 13771 on January 30, 2017, which directed federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every one new regulation, and to do so in such a way that the total cost of regulations does not increase. [6] [7] On February 24, 2017, Trump signed an order requiring all federal agencies to create task forces to look at and determine which regulations hurt the U.S. economy, something which Reuters described as "what may be the most far reaching effort to pare back U.S. red tape in recent decades." [8]
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I guess this section could be in the "100 days" section if it is more appropriate there, but I think it would preferrably go into the "Domestic policy" section. This deregulation/government size section would be updated through his presidency. Once again, I don't really care about the specifics about this proposal. I think it is relevant to add, however. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 21:18, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Proposal #2.3 (responding to comments by Scjessey and Casprings)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation issued. [6] [7] The order has been described as populist theater and condemned as "just plain dumb". [8] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [9]
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1,024 characters -> 684 777. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 08:49, 9 March 2017 (UTC) 03:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
@ 1990'sguy: Everyone has their own point of view, but the view that Trump's deregulation executive order is "stupid" is near universal, with only the most extreme "small government" types supporting it. Reliable sources all say it is a dumb idea. -- Scjessey ( talk) 13:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [6] [7] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [8]
Defenders of administrative agencies have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [9]
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884 characters. Graf 3 attempts to paraphrase the most relevant passage in the new TIME cover story, "Trump's War on Washington". (Can't say I agree with the author's analysis, but it does accurately summarize what the reputable mainstream opposition is saying.) -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 06:55, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [1] [2] In a letter signed by 137 organizations, interest groups warned Trump that Americans would "be exposed to more health, safety, environmental and financial dangers." [1] Trump became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] The head of the GAO criticized the move, saying past hiring freezes "haven't proven to be effective in reducing costs and [can] cause some problems if they're in effect for a long period of time." [6] A week later he signed Executive Order 13771, directing federal agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [7] [8] The order was described as "arbitrary" and "not implementable" by Harvard law professor Jody Freeman. [9] On February 24, 2017, he ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [10]
Defenders of administrative agencies have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [11]
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It's a little longer, but it addresses the neutrality concerns I have. -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:14, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
All the sections I compared were within the "Presidency" section. It really would look bad if we add a section with all the criticism when even more controversial issues do not have as much listed criticism. Also, the proposal that you support is about as long as the section in Presidency of Donald Trump. The section here wouldn't be much of a summary. For those reasons, I support the condensed #2. I see that more editors support #3.1, so I will not fight it anymore. It's just a waste of my time. However, I still believe #3.1 is not a good choice. -- 1990'sguy ( talk) 03:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. He became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before. [1] During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations. [2] [3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze. [4] [5] The Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office told a House committee that hiring freezes have not proven to be effective in reducing costs. [6] Unlike some past freezes, however, the current freeze bars agencies from adding contractors to make up for employees leaving. [6]
A week later Trump signed Executive Order 13771, directing administrative agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue. [7] [8] Harvard Law professor Jody Freeman said that the order
was not implementable andwould do no more than slow the regulatory process, because itwas written so as todid not block rules required by statute. [9] Nearly 140 interest groups wrote Trump a letter saying that US citizens did not vote to be exposed to more health, safety, environmental and financial dangers. [2] inconsistent undue weight? – discussOn February 24, 2017, Trump ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy. [10] Agency defenders have expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups. [11]
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1,359 characters -> 1,531. (Adds balancing information from article about GAO comment; expands Freeman's quote for clarity.) -> 1,488. (Trim longest sentence, no substantive change in meaning; full ref quote given in citation.) Tag last sentence in graf 3 for apparent inconsistency with last sentence in graf 4 and for question of undue weight. Are the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, National Center for Transgender Equality, or National LGBTQ Task Force recognized as authorities on whether Trump voters are willing to "be exposed to more dangers" in return for, say, more money or personal freedom? -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 02:23, 11 March 2017 (UTC) 23:03, 14 March 2017 (UTC) 09:17, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Everything that this man does as president CANNOT be included in his BLP. Not even a paragraph. This page is WP:NOTNEWS. Put these proposed edits on the presidency page, not here. This page is his BLP. That means his life, not his presidency. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:37, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Scjessey: Please stop attacking. Your comments are almost always disruptive, filled as they are with your obvious bias. SW3 5DL ( talk) 15:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@ JFG: Proposal #2.4 is about as neutral as it gets - it has 0 controversy. However, it has been rejected on the grounds that not covering the controversy wouldn't be a complete and accurate coverage of the topic of Trump's Presidency, even if we try to make it as brief as possible. 69.165.196.103 ( talk) 03:10, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I checked the list of "nearly 140 interest groups" who wrote the letter to Trump. They include the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, Family Equality Council, National Center for Lesbian Rights, National Center for Transgender Equality, National LGBTQ Task Force, and Trevor Project. Are these interest groups (or, indeed, the other 131) widely held to be authorities on such matters as whether Trump voters did indeed register their willingness to be "exposed to more dangers" -- in return for, say, more jobs or personal freedom? (The Hegelian dialectic might come in handy here.) I propose that we just omit the material and keep the other, more authoritative analyses by recognized experts at Harvard and Yale Law Schools. This would bring us down to 191 words, with no loss of significant information. -- Dervorguilla ( talk) 09:13, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
Trump's early policies have favored far-reaching deregulation and a smaller federal government. He became the first president in sixteen years to sign a Congressional Review Act disapproval resolution; the law had been used only once before.[1] During his first six weeks in office, he abolished ninety federal regulations.[2][3]
On January 23, 2017, Trump ordered a temporary government-wide hiring freeze.[4][5] The Comptroller General of the Government Accountability Office told a House committee that hiring freezes have not proven to be effective in reducing costs.[6] Unlike some past freezes, however, the current freeze bars agencies from adding contractors to make up for employees leaving.[6]
A week later Trump signed Executive Order 13771, directing administrative agencies to repeal two existing regulations for every new regulation they issue.[7][8] Harvard Law professor Jody Freeman said that the order would do no more than slow the regulatory process, because it did not block rules required by statute.[9]
On February 24, 2017, Trump ordered the agencies to create task forces to determine which regulations burden the U.S. economy.[10] Agency defenders expressed opposition to Trump's attacks, saying that the bureaucracy exists to protect people against well-organized, well-funded interest groups.[11]
Maybe the best use of our time would be to get consensus on the structure of the personal life section, so we can add it to the list of consensuses at the top of this talk page. I am open to changes. Here is what the structure currently is:
1 Personal life
1.1 Early life 1.2 Ancestry 1.3 Education 1.4 Family 1.5 Religious views 1.6 Health 1.7 Net worth
Does anyone have a proposal how to change this, or not? Anythingyouwant ( talk) 06:57, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
On the contrary to something I said? I said a header like "Marriage and children" instead of "family" is "too narrow". I didn't say it's not specific enough, quite the opposite. As to the rest of your comment, we have a lot of flexibility, so we don't have to do everything that's "standard" in the same standard way. But, in this BLP, how about if we re-name "early life" to "early life and education", and merge the education stuff into it? Like this:
1. Personal life
1.1 Early life and education 1.2 Ancestry 1.3 Family 1.4 Religious views 1.5 Health 1.6 Net worth
If that's not satisfactory then I support leaving it as-is (see first comment in this section) or simply removing the "early life" subheader so that its contents are a preamble to the "Personal life" section. Any of these three ways would be fine with me. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 17:37, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Ancestry makes no sense. It seems to be there only to support the 17th century claim about Drumpf. Which apparently is false anyway. Nobody's got 'ancestry' in their BLP. It's not like he's a member of the Royal family and we're tracing his lineage. SW3 5DL ( talk) 02:48, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
1 Personal life 1.1 Ancestry 1.2 Education 1.3 Family 1.4 Religion 1.5 Health 1.6 Wealth
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:14, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
This section currently has this structure:
2.4 Legal affairs, business bankruptcies, and personal taxes 2.4.1 Legal affairs 2.4.2 Business bankruptcies 2.4.3 Taxes
I'd like to change the last subheader to "Personal taxes". Also, please note that the article Legal affairs of Donald Trump includes business bankruptcies and personal taxes. So, I suggest we change the main header (2.4) to "Legal affairs", and simply remove the first subheader (2.4.1) so that its contents are a preamble at the start of section 2.4. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 16:18, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The annual Forbes 2017 list is out and I made adjustments to the article. The consensus at the top of this page should be edited. Objective3000 ( talk) 18:49, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
I made changes in the Education section and removed the use of passive voice. I also clarified the reason Trump's parents sent him to military school. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
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His full name is Donald John Trump, not Donald John Trump, Sr. -- 219.79.97.163 ( talk) 03:38, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
{{
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template. —
IVORK
Discuss 03:56, 25 March 2017 (UTC)Here are two pertinent guidelines:
The most relevant example seems to be that of John F. Kennedy and John F. Kennedy Jr.. Therefore, I support removal of the "Sr." Anythingyouwant ( talk) 04:16, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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Family section: The couple divorced in 1992 following Trump's affair with actress Marla Maples. 219.79.97.163 ( talk) 06:27, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
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Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States.
Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is a quality-driven American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States.
Please change 'an American businessman' to 'a quality-driven American businessman', because quality is an important aspect of the man, Donald Trump, whom this article is about. As a businessman, every company and building he has constructed has been quality-driven. He has demanded quality from every last person who has worked for or with him, and the quality of the American government has become his most recent goal.
Thank You! 76.11.118.30 ( talk) 13:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
We shall take it under advisement, and thank you for stopping by to comment. For your future reference, please be aware of Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Take care, and carry on.🇺🇸 And hello to everyone up there in Nova Scotia.😉 Anythingyouwant ( talk) 06:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the sentence "Trump refers to his ghostwritten book..." (Religion section), please add link [[Ghostwriter|ghostwritten]]. Uncle Roy ( talk) 11:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
I haven't looked into the editing history to see who was responsible, but what the hell is this?
His mother's Scottish grandfather, Donald Smith, had gone done with his fishing boat in 1868.
Gone done with his fishing boat? -- Scjessey ( talk) 14:31, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
There's another topic: "Drumpf". Since I am not allowed to change it myself at the moment, please read Talk:Frederick_Trump#Update:_The_legend_of_Hanns_Drumpf_.2817th_century.29 and maybe compare other relevant articles. Blair's book was first published in 2000 and it is still outstanding, but what might have seemed plausible to her almost 20 years ago is no more tenable today. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 23:09, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Mentioning the "uncertain" spelling change looks undue. Every family name that goes back centuries has been changed or spelled in different ways over time; this detail has no place in the BLP of a contemporary person. I will remove it unless somebody has a strong objection. — JFG talk 20:08, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
If it seems to be relevant that DT said he was "proud of his German heritage" then it should also be mentioned that in The Art of the Deal (1987) he asserted to be of Swedish descent instead. And more interesting than his participation at the Steuben Parade (does anybody know about this seemingly important event?) would be when and why he changed his opinion from denial to proudness. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 02:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Now some minor mistakes have occurred in this section. Kallstadt was and still is not a town but just a small village. And Donald's grandfather was officially named Friedrich when he came to NY at age 16, but later (at least since 1892 when he became a US citizen) Frederick. (Non-officially, he was called Fritz in the German-speaking milieu he still preferred in Queens.) -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 21:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC) Anything's recent edit "small town" is still not correct. It is a village and in Germany, the difference is well defined. -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 02:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Anyone tired of quibbling over a word here and there, and wish they could do some actual article work? If so, here's an opportunity to do just that. I recently found out that we have no article on Trump's current foreign policy positions. The article Foreign policy of Donald Trump is just supposed to be about his positions as a candidate. His positions as president are supposed to go in a separate article called Foreign policy of the Donald Trump administration. I have started trying to put together such an article but it's a big job. The first step, currently under way, is to reduce and adapt the material in the "foreign policy of Donald Trump" article so that it becomes a fairly brief "during the campaign" introduction to each subject. After we complete that, we will undertake to add his current positions. This is all going on at a draft where you are welcome to help. Click here to find out how. Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 18:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the build up to a very heated election lots of interviews and journalists claimed that donald trump had no friends and small hands Judlebog500 ( talk) 18:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the Ancestry section it says:
Might it be better to say,
I have reliable sources for this edit. Please support or oppose this suggested edit. Thank you. SW3 5DL ( talk) 01:22, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
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Please rewrite the lead of this biography, to fulfill its purpose to encourage readers to read the entire article. Wouldn't it be an honor if Wikipedia could be proud of it? Maybe one of you can suggest another guideline to follow than this one which seems to be weak and incomplete: WP:MOSBIO. Like maybe WP:LEAD. For starters:
Thank you. - SusanLesch ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
“ | Trump has emphasized improving border security and infrastructure, ensuring that international trade is not just free but fair, reducing federal regulations and taxes, and combatting the most dangerous foes of the United States such as ISIS. His positions have been described by scholars and commentators as populist, protectionist, and nationalist. | ” |
I agree the lead needs to be rewritten, with removal of unnecessary details about content, that is supposed anyway to be covered sufficiently in the article. 69.165.196.103 ( talk) 01:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The lead looks like something to be proud of. I'm just getting ready to archive this thread. - SusanLesch ( talk) 00:37, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Can someone give me a link to the discussion where it was decided not to put the person's religion in most infoboxes (unless it was a significant part of their notability, or whatever the wording was)? There is someone going around adding religion to dozens if not hundreds of infoboxes. I have asked them to stop, but I'd like to be able to cite the discussion where consensus was reached. Anyone have that link? Thanks. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:14, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
The following paragraph needs to be removed from the article because the article is about Donald Trump, not his ancestry. Grandfathers and Grandmothers are viable topics but need to be covered in their own articles or Trump Family article. Please note the treatment of the grandfathers and grandmothers in other similar bios such as former President Barack Obama: "His paternal grandfather, Friedrich Trump, first emigrated to the United States in 1885 (aged 16), became a citizen in 1892, and amassed a fortune operating boom-town restaurants and boarding houses in the Seattle area and the Klondike region of Canada, during the gold rush.[5] On a visit to his home village, he met Elisabeth Christ and married her in 1902. After two years in New York City, the couple returned to Kallstadt but were ordered to leave in 1905 because Friedrich had missed military service, so they settled in New York definitively.[6][7][8] He died from the flu pandemic of 1918 and Elizabeth incorporated the family real estate business, Elizabeth Trump and Son, which would later become The Trump Organization." Please remove from article, for undue weight, off topic.-- SlackerDelphi ( talk) 20:28, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
This sentence,
"The pastor at that church, Norman Vincent Peale, author of The Power of Positive Thinking and The Art of Living, ministered to Trump's family and mentored him until Peale's death in 1993.[55][54] Trump, who describes himself as a Presbyterian,[56] has cited Peale and his works during interviews when asked about the role of religion in his personal life."
does not illuminate the reader on why mention of Norman Vincent Peale is important in the article. This isn't about Peale, it is about the influence that Peale had on Trump's thinking and his positive outlook in everything he does. The sentence as is, makes Peale the actor and Trump the 'acted upon,' or passive receiver of being 'ministered to,' But how did he 'minister' to Trump? What did Trump get out of that?. I tried to correct this but it was reverted in a rollback. Also, note that the only book that matters there is The Power of Positive Thinking. It is this book that Trump frequently refers to when discussing his outlook and his belief that he can do anything he sets his mind to.
Any suggestions? There are plenty of sources to show the relationship between Trump and Peale. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:51, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
It isn't clear at all because it's about Peale, not Trump's use of Peale's philosophy. What does 'ministering to' even mean? SW3 5DL ( talk) 14:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
He is Presbyterian per Glueck, Katie. "Trump's religious dealmaking pays dividends", Politico (December 7, 2016). So, I have made this change. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 23:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
You don't see why we use this Politico article? Obviously, we use it so that we can say "Trump is Presbyterian" instead of the previous drivel ("Trump describes himself as a Presbyterian"). Here is what the BLP says now:
“ | Trump, who is Presbyterian....
[1]
[2] References
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” |
Do you object to saying he is Presbyterian? Do you object to supporting that statement with footnotes? I do not understand what the problem with using Politico is. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 15:26, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting at all that the sentence be added to. I'm saying it's needs to be rewritten. In fact, the whole section needs a rewrite. It rambles, and too much is written about Norman Vincent Peale and his books and his 'ministering.' It should be concise, and it should not have previous mention of his ancestors being Lutherans which had no effect on Trump. It should start and end with Donald Trump. And the mention of his marriage at the Marble Collegiate Church is already mentioned in the "Family" section. Lots of redundancy, and too much lack of focus, and poorly written. SW3 5DL ( talk) 19:05, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Personally I think "describes himself as Presbyterian" is the best way to put it. The fact is, he is no more a Presbyterian than Richard Nixon was a Quaker. Nixon probably never went to a Quaker meeting in his adult life, but his mother was Quaker so that's what he said. Trump was confirmed in the Presbyterian church as a teenager, so that's what he says - even though he is basically nonreligious. His public statements reveal that he knows next to nothing about the Christian faith he supposedly professes. He does not attend church with any kind of consistency, and when he does need a church (say to get married) he chooses any old church that is handy. Presidents are expected to have a religion, and if they are basically nonreligious they apply a family label to themselves, and that is what Trump has done. "Describes himself" is the most accurate way to convey this. -- MelanieN ( talk) 14:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
LORD
to judge the sincerity of his professed beliefs -- not us sinners. --
Dervorguilla (
talk) 04:41, 23 March 2017 (UTC)Just wanted to start a discussion on how much WP:WEIGHT the article should give to the fact that the FBI has an open investigation collusion with Russia. An open federal investigation concerning his current administration is historically significant. Should this be given more weight in the article? Should we expand and make more prominent the sections on Trump's ties with Russia? As this unfolds, this seems like what is most likely to be relevant 10 years from now. Casprings ( talk) 20:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Casprings: This seems to be covered in Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. It would seem perhaps a paragraph but only if there is consensus to include it at this time. SW3 5DL ( talk) 22:09, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Daily Mail has been determined to be an unreliable source: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&oldid=764420952#Daily_Mail_RfC
We need another source for the claim that Trump was an early supporter of Reagan. Seeing history, an editor mentions "The Daily Mail citation was not the first in the article" but I am unsure what was meant (I left a message on user's talk page) -- I do not see another citation for this claim, but perhaps I am overlooking something? In any event, if there is another source for this claim, we should use that source rather than the Daily Mail which I believe is unacceptable in these circumstances. Adlerschloß ( talk) 10:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
This sentence:
"Trump's father Fred was born in the Bronx, and worked with his mother since he was 15 as a real estate developer in New York City, eventually building and selling thousands of houses, barracks and apartments."
New York City is often considered Manhattan, even though NYC is made up of the five boroughs, Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, The Bronx, and Staten Island. The sentence might be better if it clarified that Fred Trump focused on Queens and Brooklyn. Also, "selling thousands of houses, barracks, and apartments," is confusing. He did his work in stages, and was very much affected by World War II. There were no new housing starts then, unless it was contracted by the War Department for housing for workers. Trump got a contract for garden apartments for workers at naval shipyards in Chester, Pennsylvania and Newport News, Virginia. After the war, Fred built affordable housing for returning soldiers. He did not build 'thousands of houses.' He did build some single family homes, but for the most part, he built apartment high-rises, and while he sold some as condos, he kept ownership of most of the other buildings and collected rents. He built all of those in Queens and Brooklyn. He never built anything in Manhattan. SW3 5DL ( talk) 20:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
There's still another point I would like to discuss: It is not common sense that Donald's grandfather Frederick "skipped" the military service in Bavaria. Blair describes what happened at length in The Trumps. When young Friedrich left for NY, military service was no matter at all. And he later convincingly assured that he never had planned to go back to Germany. Only after his young wife had got severely homesick in NY, he gave up his own plans, returned to Kallstadt, where everybody was happy about that, and than was astonished about the reaction of the (somehow foreign) Bavarian authorities that were only interested in militarian aspects. A quite enormous correspondence ensued, with all the Palatinian parties being on Trump's side, but it ended with a − questionable − verdict.
This might have been not so important here but, as it was, Donald's father Fred would have been born in Kallstadt if the Bavarian authorities would habe been not so stubborn. Elizabeth was in the 5th month when they were forced to leave Germany. Interesting for the readers of this BLP or not? Given Donald's radical attitude towards immigrants? -- Klaus Frisch ( talk) 03:47, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Klaus Frisch: Given the political changes in the Palatinate region between 1885 and 1905, would it be correct to say "the new Bavarian authorities" instead of simply "the authorities"? — JFG talk 05:58, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
I object to the edit. It's not informative at all. Brooklyn and Queens, what is not clear about Fred Trump staying there? What does, "boroughs outside Manhattan" mean precisely? Why can't the article say, Brooklyn and Queens? What's to hide there? SW3 5DL ( talk) 17:12, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Why is there no mention of the "Swedish" family lie, maintained for two generations, and embellished by Donald himself? They lied that they were Swedish. No mention at all? That smacks of censorship, especially since Donald himself embellished the lie. -- BullRangifer ( talk) 05:59, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
In an article entitled "The Swedish Whopper: Donald Trump's Long-standing Struggle With the Truth," the Trump family lie is revealed to be their claim, maintained for two generations, that they are Swedish, when in fact they are Germans. Donald's father, Fred Trump, "for a reason that has never been disclosed, began telling people that he was Swedish." [1] The lie was repeated by Fred's son Donald, who, in The Art of the Deal (1987), repeated and embellished the lie by claiming that Friedrich Trump, "came here from Sweden as a child," [2] even though he left his family and emigrated from his home town, Kallstadt, Germany, in 1885, when he was 16 years old. [3] Wayne Barrett confirmed that Donald also claimed that his own father, Fred Trump, was "born in New Jersey to Swedish parents; in fact, he was born in the Bronx to German parents." [4]
BullRangifer ( talk) 06:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
References
Not important enough for this article. It would take a full paragraph to explain all of this, in an article that is already way longer than ideal. Donald Trump ultimately set the record straight and IMO this is not a significant aspect of his biography. -- MelanieN ( talk) 13:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Scjessey and SPECIFICO:, I agree. It can be put into one sentence and should be mentioned, especially as I've been studying the Barack Obama article. It's FA and we need more editors from there to get this article to that level. They've got the experience and judgment over the last 8 years in what should and should not be included and how best to do that. Fred Trump was mindful of German resentment and did everything he could to keep it from hurting his business and rightly so. Yes, this belongs. It's significant. Support inclusion. SW3 5DL ( talk) 13:58, 22 March 2017 (UTC)