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This seems very doubtful, and the source provided is not persuasive to the best of my reading. I will preface this by saying that I do not speak Portuguese, so it would be appreciated if someone familiar with the language could confirm, but that said the source appears to be a letter sent in 1512 by Afonso de Albuquerque to king of Portugal Manuel I, de Albuqueque being at the time Captain-Major of the Seas of Arabia and Governor of Portuguese India. What seems to be the relevant section is:
″tambem vos vay hum pedaço de padram que se tirou düa gramde carta dum piloto de jaoa, a quall tinha ho cabo de bõoa esperamça, portugall e a terra do brasyll, ho mar rroxo e ho mar da persia, as ilhas do cravo, a navegaçam dos chins e gores, com suas lynhas e caminhos dereytos por omde as naos hiam, e ho sertam, quaees reynos comfynavam huns cos outros: pareceme, senhor, que foy a milhor cousa que eu nunca vy, e vossalteza ouuera de folgar muyto de ha ver″
From which my best effort at translating produces:
″You also have a piece of map that was taken from a large chart of a Java pilot, which had the Cape of Good Hope, Portugal and the land of Brazil, the Red Sea and the sea of Persia, the Spice Islands, the navigation of the Chinese and [Gores?], with their routes and rights of way [and where they avoid?], [e ho sertam], which kingdoms abut one another: it seems to me, sir, that it was the greatest thing I have ever seen, and your highness would enjoy seeing it″
Given that various Portuguese operations had established bases of operation around the Indian Ocean steadily closer and closer to Java for a decade by then, and de Albuquerque even says in his letter that he had someone in his employ able to speak the Javanese language, it seems that this statement by itself establishes very little. The Javanese pilot could have acquired the map or the knowledge to make it from plenty of sources without having been anywhere outside of the Indian Ocean, and even if a Javanese sailor had reached Brazil by then (which would be a truly astonishing feat considering that Brazil is almost as far away from Java as it is possible to be on Earth's surface) it certainly doesn't establish "ancient times". Before I edit anything, though, I am aware that as mentioned I can't actually speak the language of the source and I can't pretend to be especially familiar with the relevant history. Is there better evidence or a mistake I've made somewhere?
PurpleSkua ( talk) 05:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Please delete paragraph without valid sources and international journals Yukiaika3 ( talk) 10:26, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
The mandarin pronunciation for ships/boat is "chuan". But in ancient times, the people of China do not speak mandarin. They speak regional dialects. The dialect calling for "chuan" is "zun" for people from the coastal province of Fujian. The Austronesians have their own term for ships which is praw/perahu and kapal later from Tamil language. The Borobodur ship relief found in Borobodur do not have junk design. Can someone please clatify? 2001:D08:D7:88EF:DF8:9307:4A6B:95E2 ( talk) 01:08, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida) This was a description of a southern Chinese ship, not a Javanese ship. According to the cited source, they were discussing Chinese ships; also, according to 5 other sources that use the same Zhou's description, they were all describing southern Chinese ships. Merzostin ( talk) 10:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Pakbelangi feared this article contains a lot of disinformation or at the very least misinformation. Sadly, no one is willing to fact check everything on this page but then again it's quite a task Merzostin ( talk) 08:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Djong (ship) § Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida.
Merzostin (
talk)
09:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi editors, this is regarding wether the article should include the quote from Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida or not. The history of the quote has been disputed on the talk page, since there are no consensus between Merzostin and Nitekuzee, RfC seems to be the best course of action. In light of the source and evidence, it should be determined wether to:
Option #1: Keep The Quote
Option #2: Remove The Quote
Merzostin ( talk) 15:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
"are you sane? all you do is just rambling unsourced nonsense again and again on this thread and NO! your out of topic ramblings are absolutely wrong too, also no one is talking about Mongol!"are completely inappropriate to a collegial environment like that which is meant to be found in all en.wikipedia talk page discussions. Aside from the fact that these sorts of comments work against you gaining consensus for your preferred outcome, they may very well lead to blocks or other restrictions on your editorial contributions, being as they are rude, a violation of our WP:CIV and WP:PA policies, and mostly contribute nothing to a resolution here.
I'm going to have to dig in a little deeper here before entering my own firm !vote on the OP's inquiryI wanted to follow up regarding your consensus based on the evidence. I understand that you may have a hectic schedule and numerous responsibilities to attend to. Nevertheless, I eagerly await your consensus. Merzostin ( talk) 22:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I found that this page contained a lot of disinformation WP:LIE, and I already removed some of it, but i hope someone is willing to continue fact checking this entire article. Also be cautious of edits by @ Verosaurus, this users have repeatedly made original research edits based on little to no credible source (it violated WP:VER Wikipedia:No original research), the edits also had underlying nationalist ethnocentrism or Java centrism. Here i provide evidences for some of the misinformations, i'll keep it brief
Catalan Atlas
Basically the person made bad faith "original research" and trying to pass this junk ship image as actually of Javanese jong, but cited no secondary source and the primary source wasn't at all specific, from Source a : it basically explained that the flag on the ship was the same as Ilkhanate (Mongols) flag just beside the ships and it was depicted in this map to show how connected the IIkhanate was "the ships bear Il-Khanate flags and one of them sails in the eastern Indian Ocean, the map proves that the ships from the Il-Khanate sailed there." from Source b Source c : It was Chinese ships source b " The entire southeast corner of the map is sprinkled with a brightly colored array of islands, further embellished by a double-tailed mer-maid, a couple of naked fishers, and a Chinese junk with palm leaf sails". Source c " an effort to describe a Chinese junk off the south coast of Asia. It is near an open boat with pearl fishers diving, as described by Marco Polo who put the fishery off southwest India and claimed it produced most of the pearls in the world.
Comment: around this time, Chinese ships were already owned by the Mongols, so this explanation can both exist, being it was a Chinese ships given to other Mongols domain. (Catalan Atlas)
Fra Mauro Map
Removed the two Fra Mauro map 1420 descriptions as it was original research and had no sources much less reliable secondary one, from all the sources i can find based on the Quote, in all of them, they stated it as quote of Chinese ships, but again this person try to pass it as of Javanese jong on this Djong article. Source 1 "ship which he refers was probably Chinese The dominant power in south-east Asia at that time was the Ming dynasty in China. Under the Yongle Emperor,3 a huge fleet of ships had been constructed and between 1405 and 1433 the Chinese treasure fleet" Source 2 Source 3 "Marco polo describing ship made in China... perhaps it would be as accurate as Fra Mauro Map" (even the picture this person used on this page said Chinese ships). Source 4pg 29 "One of these boats is illustrated next to the text and another east of the Indian penin-sula: with their transom bow and stern, rails on the stern galley, portholes, and as many as five masts with unmistakable mast and batten sails, they are undoubtedly Chinese junks such as Marco Polo had described." Source 5 pg 85. Chinese Junks.
Odoric
"In 1322 friar Odoric of Pordenone recorded that during his voyage from India to China he boarded a vessel of the zuncum type which carried at least 700 people, either sailors or merchants." source 1 source 2
Evidence : From the referenced Source 1, this exact description was taken out of context, it was sandwiched between 2 other sentences that mentioned clear Chinese origin junks. From Source 2, this source didn't focus on the origin of the junk. additional Source 3 Source 4 "Friar Odoric has recorded that he sailed from India in a Chinese junk via Sumatra , Java , Borneo , and ... 700 souls on board ; while Marco's ships each carried 600" ( Source 4The Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze volume 1By G. R. G. Worcester · 1947, page 25.)
Miller Atlas images
@ Verosaurus just provided original research without any sources, just because you uploaded this image and provided unsourced interpretation on the description doesn't mean it can be presented here. Until a reliable source was given, where it stated that this image was of said Javanese ship, this should be removed.
Removed since it violates WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. The Miller Atlas images contained false interpretation from the primary source, which was original research and isn't allowed on Wikipedia. (also had no valid source or secondary source), i can't find any source that said this was in anyway a Javanese ships, but found statement that this atlas wasn't accurate.
These were fairly easy to verify, since most of these are quite famous primary sources, which has been discussed by many publications that can be found online. But i'm afraid that the whole page contained a lot of these false "interpretation" and need to be fact checked, sentence by sentence. Merzostin ( talk) 23:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
'Djong' is pre-1972 spelling, so the title needs to be 'Jong' here (I realise that other aspects of this page are controversial, but using the conventional spelling should not be). Adrian Vickers ( talk) 06:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The issue is perennial as can be seen in the sample discussions: -
There is a lot more where that came from, as there have been multiple conversations over time in individual articles where more than one spelling is encountered. JarrahTree 02:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Djong article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This seems very doubtful, and the source provided is not persuasive to the best of my reading. I will preface this by saying that I do not speak Portuguese, so it would be appreciated if someone familiar with the language could confirm, but that said the source appears to be a letter sent in 1512 by Afonso de Albuquerque to king of Portugal Manuel I, de Albuqueque being at the time Captain-Major of the Seas of Arabia and Governor of Portuguese India. What seems to be the relevant section is:
″tambem vos vay hum pedaço de padram que se tirou düa gramde carta dum piloto de jaoa, a quall tinha ho cabo de bõoa esperamça, portugall e a terra do brasyll, ho mar rroxo e ho mar da persia, as ilhas do cravo, a navegaçam dos chins e gores, com suas lynhas e caminhos dereytos por omde as naos hiam, e ho sertam, quaees reynos comfynavam huns cos outros: pareceme, senhor, que foy a milhor cousa que eu nunca vy, e vossalteza ouuera de folgar muyto de ha ver″
From which my best effort at translating produces:
″You also have a piece of map that was taken from a large chart of a Java pilot, which had the Cape of Good Hope, Portugal and the land of Brazil, the Red Sea and the sea of Persia, the Spice Islands, the navigation of the Chinese and [Gores?], with their routes and rights of way [and where they avoid?], [e ho sertam], which kingdoms abut one another: it seems to me, sir, that it was the greatest thing I have ever seen, and your highness would enjoy seeing it″
Given that various Portuguese operations had established bases of operation around the Indian Ocean steadily closer and closer to Java for a decade by then, and de Albuquerque even says in his letter that he had someone in his employ able to speak the Javanese language, it seems that this statement by itself establishes very little. The Javanese pilot could have acquired the map or the knowledge to make it from plenty of sources without having been anywhere outside of the Indian Ocean, and even if a Javanese sailor had reached Brazil by then (which would be a truly astonishing feat considering that Brazil is almost as far away from Java as it is possible to be on Earth's surface) it certainly doesn't establish "ancient times". Before I edit anything, though, I am aware that as mentioned I can't actually speak the language of the source and I can't pretend to be especially familiar with the relevant history. Is there better evidence or a mistake I've made somewhere?
PurpleSkua ( talk) 05:30, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Please delete paragraph without valid sources and international journals Yukiaika3 ( talk) 10:26, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
The mandarin pronunciation for ships/boat is "chuan". But in ancient times, the people of China do not speak mandarin. They speak regional dialects. The dialect calling for "chuan" is "zun" for people from the coastal province of Fujian. The Austronesians have their own term for ships which is praw/perahu and kapal later from Tamil language. The Borobodur ship relief found in Borobodur do not have junk design. Can someone please clatify? 2001:D08:D7:88EF:DF8:9307:4A6B:95E2 ( talk) 01:08, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida) This was a description of a southern Chinese ship, not a Javanese ship. According to the cited source, they were discussing Chinese ships; also, according to 5 other sources that use the same Zhou's description, they were all describing southern Chinese ships. Merzostin ( talk) 10:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Pakbelangi feared this article contains a lot of disinformation or at the very least misinformation. Sadly, no one is willing to fact check everything on this page but then again it's quite a task Merzostin ( talk) 08:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Djong (ship) § Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida.
Merzostin (
talk)
09:49, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Hi editors, this is regarding wether the article should include the quote from Zhou Qufei, Lingwai Daida or not. The history of the quote has been disputed on the talk page, since there are no consensus between Merzostin and Nitekuzee, RfC seems to be the best course of action. In light of the source and evidence, it should be determined wether to:
Option #1: Keep The Quote
Option #2: Remove The Quote
Merzostin ( talk) 15:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
"are you sane? all you do is just rambling unsourced nonsense again and again on this thread and NO! your out of topic ramblings are absolutely wrong too, also no one is talking about Mongol!"are completely inappropriate to a collegial environment like that which is meant to be found in all en.wikipedia talk page discussions. Aside from the fact that these sorts of comments work against you gaining consensus for your preferred outcome, they may very well lead to blocks or other restrictions on your editorial contributions, being as they are rude, a violation of our WP:CIV and WP:PA policies, and mostly contribute nothing to a resolution here.
I'm going to have to dig in a little deeper here before entering my own firm !vote on the OP's inquiryI wanted to follow up regarding your consensus based on the evidence. I understand that you may have a hectic schedule and numerous responsibilities to attend to. Nevertheless, I eagerly await your consensus. Merzostin ( talk) 22:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
I found that this page contained a lot of disinformation WP:LIE, and I already removed some of it, but i hope someone is willing to continue fact checking this entire article. Also be cautious of edits by @ Verosaurus, this users have repeatedly made original research edits based on little to no credible source (it violated WP:VER Wikipedia:No original research), the edits also had underlying nationalist ethnocentrism or Java centrism. Here i provide evidences for some of the misinformations, i'll keep it brief
Catalan Atlas
Basically the person made bad faith "original research" and trying to pass this junk ship image as actually of Javanese jong, but cited no secondary source and the primary source wasn't at all specific, from Source a : it basically explained that the flag on the ship was the same as Ilkhanate (Mongols) flag just beside the ships and it was depicted in this map to show how connected the IIkhanate was "the ships bear Il-Khanate flags and one of them sails in the eastern Indian Ocean, the map proves that the ships from the Il-Khanate sailed there." from Source b Source c : It was Chinese ships source b " The entire southeast corner of the map is sprinkled with a brightly colored array of islands, further embellished by a double-tailed mer-maid, a couple of naked fishers, and a Chinese junk with palm leaf sails". Source c " an effort to describe a Chinese junk off the south coast of Asia. It is near an open boat with pearl fishers diving, as described by Marco Polo who put the fishery off southwest India and claimed it produced most of the pearls in the world.
Comment: around this time, Chinese ships were already owned by the Mongols, so this explanation can both exist, being it was a Chinese ships given to other Mongols domain. (Catalan Atlas)
Fra Mauro Map
Removed the two Fra Mauro map 1420 descriptions as it was original research and had no sources much less reliable secondary one, from all the sources i can find based on the Quote, in all of them, they stated it as quote of Chinese ships, but again this person try to pass it as of Javanese jong on this Djong article. Source 1 "ship which he refers was probably Chinese The dominant power in south-east Asia at that time was the Ming dynasty in China. Under the Yongle Emperor,3 a huge fleet of ships had been constructed and between 1405 and 1433 the Chinese treasure fleet" Source 2 Source 3 "Marco polo describing ship made in China... perhaps it would be as accurate as Fra Mauro Map" (even the picture this person used on this page said Chinese ships). Source 4pg 29 "One of these boats is illustrated next to the text and another east of the Indian penin-sula: with their transom bow and stern, rails on the stern galley, portholes, and as many as five masts with unmistakable mast and batten sails, they are undoubtedly Chinese junks such as Marco Polo had described." Source 5 pg 85. Chinese Junks.
Odoric
"In 1322 friar Odoric of Pordenone recorded that during his voyage from India to China he boarded a vessel of the zuncum type which carried at least 700 people, either sailors or merchants." source 1 source 2
Evidence : From the referenced Source 1, this exact description was taken out of context, it was sandwiched between 2 other sentences that mentioned clear Chinese origin junks. From Source 2, this source didn't focus on the origin of the junk. additional Source 3 Source 4 "Friar Odoric has recorded that he sailed from India in a Chinese junk via Sumatra , Java , Borneo , and ... 700 souls on board ; while Marco's ships each carried 600" ( Source 4The Junks and Sampans of the Yangtze volume 1By G. R. G. Worcester · 1947, page 25.)
Miller Atlas images
@ Verosaurus just provided original research without any sources, just because you uploaded this image and provided unsourced interpretation on the description doesn't mean it can be presented here. Until a reliable source was given, where it stated that this image was of said Javanese ship, this should be removed.
Removed since it violates WP:OR and WP:VERIFY. The Miller Atlas images contained false interpretation from the primary source, which was original research and isn't allowed on Wikipedia. (also had no valid source or secondary source), i can't find any source that said this was in anyway a Javanese ships, but found statement that this atlas wasn't accurate.
These were fairly easy to verify, since most of these are quite famous primary sources, which has been discussed by many publications that can be found online. But i'm afraid that the whole page contained a lot of these false "interpretation" and need to be fact checked, sentence by sentence. Merzostin ( talk) 23:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
'Djong' is pre-1972 spelling, so the title needs to be 'Jong' here (I realise that other aspects of this page are controversial, but using the conventional spelling should not be). Adrian Vickers ( talk) 06:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The issue is perennial as can be seen in the sample discussions: -
There is a lot more where that came from, as there have been multiple conversations over time in individual articles where more than one spelling is encountered. JarrahTree 02:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)