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Just looked back at edit history fully and realised there is an ongoing debate about whether to use the description of "English" or "British" politician. Convention is generally the latter, aside from some politicians in places like Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, however for Labour MPs, especially members of the UK-wide (Shadow) Cabinet and who identify as British, it is normal and expected for them to be described as "British politician" as it is the most accurate and clear description, and a sort of unwritten convention at this point. I'd be curious to hear thoughts from others on this however given there seems to be a differing of views on the matter. Greenleader(2) ( talk) 13:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
References
Perhaps a new thought is needed. It is important to distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. An ethnicity is cultural group with a unique language and culture, a nationality is a group of people born or living on any given land mass that is a country. All English, Scottish and Welsh are British, but not all British are English, Scottish or Welsh. We can also go further based on genetics and to give a kind of a quick summary, the only information I can find on ethnic English, is based on genetics, and specifically the DNA haplogroup R1b subclade R-U106, which is most common in England and the Netherlands, and whose history is in the Anglo, Saxon, Jute and Frisian immigration to Great Britain, where they coalesced and intermingled to become Anglo-Saxons and then modern day English. We won't know if David Lammy is ethnically English unless he takes a DNA test and shows the results, but according to Wikipedia, his parents were Ghanaian, leading me to believe that he probably would not have the DNA haplogroup pinpointed to English people. So therefore he would not be ethnically English. He most definitely is British however born and raised. The label British is more accurate based on what we do know.
The previous section has gone of the rails abit. So I'm adding a new section in case anyone has anything new to add. The pertinent policies appear to be WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:UKNATIONALS. I believe that the weight of sources, particularly the self declarations by Lammy, show that we should be using English. However I'm open to any policy based discussions. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 20:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Politician doesn't mean MP. They are not the same terms, someone could be a Martian politician and a British MP. Everything else you mention doesn't matter, as you appear unable to understand that simple fact. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 10:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
why is Gordon Brown, Boris Johnson and Tony Blair British politicians but not David Lammy?
Erzan ( talk) 10:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
These are direct quotes from David Lammy official Twitter/X, LBC radio, Facebook page and some other sites. He repeatedly identifies as British. For context he is British MP for the British Parliament and is against separatism, he is a British Unionist.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1158791107347668995?t=YqVVddS3hslr4DTZPZISXg&s=19
"Whether you like it or not I am both English and British."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1121095507684859904?t=FqfHsMQBNsHWtd9YriXM5A&s=19
"for the record I am British."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1111282788425175042?t=IjCokQ_FmZbUtaA7s-OLow&s=19
"I am British and proud of it."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/997413779569807360?t=0K_-paHtNWxEQ0Otx4AFug&s=19
"I am Black British"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/991002584294019072?t=rf6X_M7jemYZrWocOZMHgA&s=19
"I am here because you were there. My ancestors were not British subjects because they came to Britain. They were British subjects because Britain came to them"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/972502731087908866?t=Dh-t-SzdF9DHEWqg1jlRlQ&s=19
"I am Black. I am British. I am Caribbean."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/928171649521868801?t=-uFyjQZeYoSDCH5iD36Hrg&s=19
"I love Winnie the Pooh - does that make me more British?"
https://m.facebook.com/DavidLammyTottenham/photos/a.10151122350126541/10155261588046541/?type=3
"As a Black, British, Caribbean son of the Windrush and descendant of slaves"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/988828590644002821?t=-XogFbosAG_OgUOrvYwxUg&s=19
"Should be considered British"? Are British.
The Windrush Generation (including my parents) were British citizens when they were invited here. See the 1948 British Nationality Act, Chapter 56, Part I.
Their British citizenship is and always has been theirs by right"
“The British are known for their fair play, their civility, their tolerance and understanding,”
"Black history is British history"
"our great nation is able to partake in the commemoration of one of the many things that makes Great Britain great ... our capacity to accept and pay tribute to the wealth of cultures which have come to be encapsulated in that word; British"
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/07/29/david-lammy-tribes-book
"I am British, English and a Londoner"
https://highprofiles.info/interview/david-lammy/
"I guess. In that sense, [my faith] is terribly British."
"We’re all British – this is a multi-ethnic country with a long history. I will continue to assert the rights of British citizens"
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/david-lammy-interview-2019
"People don’t contest that I’m British as a black man"
"That was terribly un-British; just not the way we behave.”
"I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told to go home, or had my Britishness questioned."
Editors ask for sources and then when they overwhelming show the person calls themselves something it's ignored.No I asked for sources and then went to sleep, you don't get to demand other editors time. This isn't something so urgent that I must WP:SATISFY your whim.
Also to imply discrimination is not civil, that was not what DanielRigal said, they said this discussion started as such.
especially when I have gone out my way to offer a compromiseAs I said above your compromise is just your desired outcome it is not a compromise, and as I have shown above it is poorly thought out.
This is bias and uncooperativedon't make WP:ASPERSIONS against other editors. If you truly think this is the case then WP:ANI would be the place to report it, but I would very strong suggest you read WP:BOOMERANG first. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 10:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
it's ignorednow it wasn't, you just have to give other editors time to reply to your comments. Editors may not be able to reply immediately, and you don't get to insist they do. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 15:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Just to note "other stuff exists" is a bad argument. If you want to tag someone just do it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 16:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
*An IP hoping disruptive editor making negative comments on the assumed ethnicity of other editors, I already know everything I need to about such editors. -- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 20:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
The editing page (which the reader can't see) says "otherparty" but it says "Other political affiliations" on the page and that's what people see. Therefore, this is NOT saying this is a political party when people come to read the Wikipedia page. I agree with the above IP that it’s a political group. It’s a group in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which is obviously a completely political institution. If it wasn’t political it would not be a group in the UK Parliament. Helper201 ( talk) 22:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Is it acceptable to place
Labour Friends of Israel in the "Other political affiliations section" of the infobox?
Helper201 (
talk) 00:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
It is not necessary to include … a politicians affiliations to groups within their own party, and mere membership indicates 'interest' rather than 'affiliation'. The underlying logic of this is somewhat McCarthyite "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Friends of …". If and when WP:RS describe some solid reason why an individual politician's 'memberships' become important - then it can go in the body and perhaps the infobox if WEIGHT allows. Pincrete ( talk) 09:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
This RfC has been open more than a month, discussion seems to have slowed, and a closure request has been registered at
WP:CR. I am here to bring you closure.
By headcounting, 5 editors supported "English" and 8 supported "British". Another editor didn't really care one way or the other and said either was fine with them.
Argument came down to an MOS battle, with
MOS:NATIONALITY frequently cited, directly or indirectly, by the "English" camp. In rebuttal, some "British" editors said the MOS allows either. However, the allowance of either is implicitly an argument not to preclude "English".
MOS:CITIZEN was cited by some in the "British" camp, however, like NATIONALITY, the authority of that argument collapsed a bit during rebuttal and surrebuttal.
WP:V was touched upon with some editors indicating sources refer to him as British.
Ultimately, arguments on both sides were equally convincing and of similar quality so resolution by strict application of
WP:DETCON is not possible at this time. And an 8/5 split is too narrow to infer unread consensus. Therefore, there is
WP:NOCONSENSUS and, as such, the stable form of the article prior to the RfC should remain until this RfC is overturned. By my reading, "English" is the stable form of the article. To clarify, there is no consensus for "English," rather "English" is merely the status quo for the article until a new RfC can arrive at consensus.
Chetsford (
talk) 06:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Should David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, be described as a "British politician" or an "English politician"? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Do the balance of these sources assert that David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, is a British politician?
[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] Erzan ( talk) 14:11, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
OK. Maybe I can rescue this. While I think the question here was asked and answered quite some time ago, I think it might be good to get a final, definitive, documented answer that will discourage repeated attempts to relitigate it. Here is my interpretation of the question that Erzan is asking stated in the most simple and neutral way that I can. Ezran, please feel free to point out any mistakes in this:
This article currently describes Lammy as "an English politician". Should this be changed to primarily describe him as "a British politician"? -- DanielRigal ( talk) 18:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
1. Overwhelming refers to himself as British. The many references support that.
2. A British politician for the British Parliament. English MPs do not exist nor is there an English election or Parliament.
3. A member of the British Labour Party.
4. Personally identifies as European, British, English and a Londoner.
5. The vast majority of the UK Shadow Cabinet are also described as British politicans.
I am the same ethnicity as David Lammy, Afro-Carribbean heritage, and have repeatedly explained with many references why Lammy is a British politician. A compromise was offered to have his English identity mentioned elsewhere and I am more than glad to have it mentioned in his personal life area because it is clear by the many references he has a strong passion for a plural identity. This repeated need to mention alleged bigotry have nothing to do with my statements, please stop mentioning it. Thank you.
I propose an offer of compromise.
David Lammy described as a British politician, like the rest of the UK Shadow Cabinet of MPs, then have his personal identities mentioned in the personal life section.
Erzan ( talk) 19:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
English This is a very simple case per MOS:NATIONALITY. He resides in his country of origin, which is England. I don't see a compelling argument presented to change the status quo. WP:OTHERCONTENT is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't think a RFC is necessary on something so simple. Nemov ( talk) 13:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
British, in line with the articles for
these
first
contemporary
politicians
I
picked, and the sources above which could be used to support self-identification as either British or English. From a quick glance at other articles, it looks like 'English politician' is more common for historical figures like
these
ancient
guys. Changed my mind. English or British are both fine. I'm not sure the argument about 'British politician because they sit in Westminster' is really all that great (we wouldn't call an English person sat in the European parliament a 'European politician', for example. If anything, I'd probably prefer English, which is also supported by the sources and in line with the sort of, lowest level of nationality the subject identifies as.
Tewdar 09:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC) edited by
Tewdar 09:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
British, in line with sources. English politician would only make sense if his politics were England-specific and/or he supported English independence, neither of which is the case.The English ones are mostly listed as British now. The Scottish and Welsh ones are still mostly listed as Scottish and Welsh
That simply isn't true,
Gordon Brown,
Robin Cook,
John Smith,
Tony Blair (who was born in Scotland) are all described as 'British', because they were all members of the UK parliament and involved with British, not Scots, politics. Those who are listed as 'Scottish/Welsh/ N Irish' will almost always be because they are solely involved in devolved (ie Scots/Welsh/N Irish) politics in Scots/Welsh/N Irish assemblies and/or because they are members of pro-independence political parties. I have never heard of Lammy being described as English. If he ever self-describes, it is as a local cultural identification akin to Bush describing himself as 'Texan', not something that overrides Lammy's citizenship (British) and area of political involvement (the UK). This is an attempt to impose a 'one-size-fits-all' logic by those who don't appear to understand either British politics or conventions.
Pincrete (
talk) 07:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The English ones are mostly listed as British now.
You must be joking thinking a Sinn Féin politician is a British citizen?I'm not saying that (as I specifically noted). I'm saying that even though Finucane was born in the UK and was elected to the British parliament, it would be wrong to call him British. Those facts don't change that he's Irish. I did say I didn't see anything in his article to show that he's taken Irish citizenship.
nearly half of people born in Northern Ireland held an Irish passportabsolutely and it's why it not possible to have a simple one size fits all for all people in the UK. The fact remains that there are four nations of people inside the UK state
There has not been a government of England since 1707
There is no categorical preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh”. - SchroCat ( talk) 05:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Note: I have recently reverted attempts to change the description from "English" to "British". This was because those changes were accompanied by racist edit summaries and were obviously not genuine attempts to implement any consensus reached here. Please do not interpret this as a slight on those who want to make the same change for non-racist reasons. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 20:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
The section was just renamed, which got me to think the whole things should be broken up. Per WP:CRITS I'm thinking the different parts should be merged into the Views and Parliamentary career sections. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
David Lammy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This page is about an active politician who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy. Because of this, this article is at increased risk of biased editing, talk-page trolling, and simple vandalism. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Just looked back at edit history fully and realised there is an ongoing debate about whether to use the description of "English" or "British" politician. Convention is generally the latter, aside from some politicians in places like Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, however for Labour MPs, especially members of the UK-wide (Shadow) Cabinet and who identify as British, it is normal and expected for them to be described as "British politician" as it is the most accurate and clear description, and a sort of unwritten convention at this point. I'd be curious to hear thoughts from others on this however given there seems to be a differing of views on the matter. Greenleader(2) ( talk) 13:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
References
Perhaps a new thought is needed. It is important to distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. An ethnicity is cultural group with a unique language and culture, a nationality is a group of people born or living on any given land mass that is a country. All English, Scottish and Welsh are British, but not all British are English, Scottish or Welsh. We can also go further based on genetics and to give a kind of a quick summary, the only information I can find on ethnic English, is based on genetics, and specifically the DNA haplogroup R1b subclade R-U106, which is most common in England and the Netherlands, and whose history is in the Anglo, Saxon, Jute and Frisian immigration to Great Britain, where they coalesced and intermingled to become Anglo-Saxons and then modern day English. We won't know if David Lammy is ethnically English unless he takes a DNA test and shows the results, but according to Wikipedia, his parents were Ghanaian, leading me to believe that he probably would not have the DNA haplogroup pinpointed to English people. So therefore he would not be ethnically English. He most definitely is British however born and raised. The label British is more accurate based on what we do know.
The previous section has gone of the rails abit. So I'm adding a new section in case anyone has anything new to add. The pertinent policies appear to be WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:UKNATIONALS. I believe that the weight of sources, particularly the self declarations by Lammy, show that we should be using English. However I'm open to any policy based discussions. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 20:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Politician doesn't mean MP. They are not the same terms, someone could be a Martian politician and a British MP. Everything else you mention doesn't matter, as you appear unable to understand that simple fact. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 10:23, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
why is Gordon Brown, Boris Johnson and Tony Blair British politicians but not David Lammy?
Erzan ( talk) 10:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
These are direct quotes from David Lammy official Twitter/X, LBC radio, Facebook page and some other sites. He repeatedly identifies as British. For context he is British MP for the British Parliament and is against separatism, he is a British Unionist.
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1158791107347668995?t=YqVVddS3hslr4DTZPZISXg&s=19
"Whether you like it or not I am both English and British."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1121095507684859904?t=FqfHsMQBNsHWtd9YriXM5A&s=19
"for the record I am British."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1111282788425175042?t=IjCokQ_FmZbUtaA7s-OLow&s=19
"I am British and proud of it."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/997413779569807360?t=0K_-paHtNWxEQ0Otx4AFug&s=19
"I am Black British"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/991002584294019072?t=rf6X_M7jemYZrWocOZMHgA&s=19
"I am here because you were there. My ancestors were not British subjects because they came to Britain. They were British subjects because Britain came to them"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/972502731087908866?t=Dh-t-SzdF9DHEWqg1jlRlQ&s=19
"I am Black. I am British. I am Caribbean."
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/928171649521868801?t=-uFyjQZeYoSDCH5iD36Hrg&s=19
"I love Winnie the Pooh - does that make me more British?"
https://m.facebook.com/DavidLammyTottenham/photos/a.10151122350126541/10155261588046541/?type=3
"As a Black, British, Caribbean son of the Windrush and descendant of slaves"
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/988828590644002821?t=-XogFbosAG_OgUOrvYwxUg&s=19
"Should be considered British"? Are British.
The Windrush Generation (including my parents) were British citizens when they were invited here. See the 1948 British Nationality Act, Chapter 56, Part I.
Their British citizenship is and always has been theirs by right"
“The British are known for their fair play, their civility, their tolerance and understanding,”
"Black history is British history"
"our great nation is able to partake in the commemoration of one of the many things that makes Great Britain great ... our capacity to accept and pay tribute to the wealth of cultures which have come to be encapsulated in that word; British"
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/07/29/david-lammy-tribes-book
"I am British, English and a Londoner"
https://highprofiles.info/interview/david-lammy/
"I guess. In that sense, [my faith] is terribly British."
"We’re all British – this is a multi-ethnic country with a long history. I will continue to assert the rights of British citizens"
https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/david-lammy-interview-2019
"People don’t contest that I’m British as a black man"
"That was terribly un-British; just not the way we behave.”
"I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been told to go home, or had my Britishness questioned."
Editors ask for sources and then when they overwhelming show the person calls themselves something it's ignored.No I asked for sources and then went to sleep, you don't get to demand other editors time. This isn't something so urgent that I must WP:SATISFY your whim.
Also to imply discrimination is not civil, that was not what DanielRigal said, they said this discussion started as such.
especially when I have gone out my way to offer a compromiseAs I said above your compromise is just your desired outcome it is not a compromise, and as I have shown above it is poorly thought out.
This is bias and uncooperativedon't make WP:ASPERSIONS against other editors. If you truly think this is the case then WP:ANI would be the place to report it, but I would very strong suggest you read WP:BOOMERANG first. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 10:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
it's ignorednow it wasn't, you just have to give other editors time to reply to your comments. Editors may not be able to reply immediately, and you don't get to insist they do. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 15:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Just to note "other stuff exists" is a bad argument. If you want to tag someone just do it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆ transmissions∆ ° co-ords° 16:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
*An IP hoping disruptive editor making negative comments on the assumed ethnicity of other editors, I already know everything I need to about such editors. -- LCU
ActivelyDisinterested ∆
transmissions∆ °
co-ords° 20:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
The editing page (which the reader can't see) says "otherparty" but it says "Other political affiliations" on the page and that's what people see. Therefore, this is NOT saying this is a political party when people come to read the Wikipedia page. I agree with the above IP that it’s a political group. It’s a group in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which is obviously a completely political institution. If it wasn’t political it would not be a group in the UK Parliament. Helper201 ( talk) 22:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Is it acceptable to place
Labour Friends of Israel in the "Other political affiliations section" of the infobox?
Helper201 (
talk) 00:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
It is not necessary to include … a politicians affiliations to groups within their own party, and mere membership indicates 'interest' rather than 'affiliation'. The underlying logic of this is somewhat McCarthyite "Are you or have you ever been a member of the Friends of …". If and when WP:RS describe some solid reason why an individual politician's 'memberships' become important - then it can go in the body and perhaps the infobox if WEIGHT allows. Pincrete ( talk) 09:49, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
This RfC has been open more than a month, discussion seems to have slowed, and a closure request has been registered at
WP:CR. I am here to bring you closure.
By headcounting, 5 editors supported "English" and 8 supported "British". Another editor didn't really care one way or the other and said either was fine with them.
Argument came down to an MOS battle, with
MOS:NATIONALITY frequently cited, directly or indirectly, by the "English" camp. In rebuttal, some "British" editors said the MOS allows either. However, the allowance of either is implicitly an argument not to preclude "English".
MOS:CITIZEN was cited by some in the "British" camp, however, like NATIONALITY, the authority of that argument collapsed a bit during rebuttal and surrebuttal.
WP:V was touched upon with some editors indicating sources refer to him as British.
Ultimately, arguments on both sides were equally convincing and of similar quality so resolution by strict application of
WP:DETCON is not possible at this time. And an 8/5 split is too narrow to infer unread consensus. Therefore, there is
WP:NOCONSENSUS and, as such, the stable form of the article prior to the RfC should remain until this RfC is overturned. By my reading, "English" is the stable form of the article. To clarify, there is no consensus for "English," rather "English" is merely the status quo for the article until a new RfC can arrive at consensus.
Chetsford (
talk) 06:23, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Should David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, be described as a "British politician" or an "English politician"? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Do the balance of these sources assert that David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, is a British politician?
[2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] Erzan ( talk) 14:11, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
OK. Maybe I can rescue this. While I think the question here was asked and answered quite some time ago, I think it might be good to get a final, definitive, documented answer that will discourage repeated attempts to relitigate it. Here is my interpretation of the question that Erzan is asking stated in the most simple and neutral way that I can. Ezran, please feel free to point out any mistakes in this:
This article currently describes Lammy as "an English politician". Should this be changed to primarily describe him as "a British politician"? -- DanielRigal ( talk) 18:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
1. Overwhelming refers to himself as British. The many references support that.
2. A British politician for the British Parliament. English MPs do not exist nor is there an English election or Parliament.
3. A member of the British Labour Party.
4. Personally identifies as European, British, English and a Londoner.
5. The vast majority of the UK Shadow Cabinet are also described as British politicans.
I am the same ethnicity as David Lammy, Afro-Carribbean heritage, and have repeatedly explained with many references why Lammy is a British politician. A compromise was offered to have his English identity mentioned elsewhere and I am more than glad to have it mentioned in his personal life area because it is clear by the many references he has a strong passion for a plural identity. This repeated need to mention alleged bigotry have nothing to do with my statements, please stop mentioning it. Thank you.
I propose an offer of compromise.
David Lammy described as a British politician, like the rest of the UK Shadow Cabinet of MPs, then have his personal identities mentioned in the personal life section.
Erzan ( talk) 19:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
English This is a very simple case per MOS:NATIONALITY. He resides in his country of origin, which is England. I don't see a compelling argument presented to change the status quo. WP:OTHERCONTENT is irrelevant. Frankly, I don't think a RFC is necessary on something so simple. Nemov ( talk) 13:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
British, in line with the articles for
these
first
contemporary
politicians
I
picked, and the sources above which could be used to support self-identification as either British or English. From a quick glance at other articles, it looks like 'English politician' is more common for historical figures like
these
ancient
guys. Changed my mind. English or British are both fine. I'm not sure the argument about 'British politician because they sit in Westminster' is really all that great (we wouldn't call an English person sat in the European parliament a 'European politician', for example. If anything, I'd probably prefer English, which is also supported by the sources and in line with the sort of, lowest level of nationality the subject identifies as.
Tewdar 09:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC) edited by
Tewdar 09:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
British, in line with sources. English politician would only make sense if his politics were England-specific and/or he supported English independence, neither of which is the case.The English ones are mostly listed as British now. The Scottish and Welsh ones are still mostly listed as Scottish and Welsh
That simply isn't true,
Gordon Brown,
Robin Cook,
John Smith,
Tony Blair (who was born in Scotland) are all described as 'British', because they were all members of the UK parliament and involved with British, not Scots, politics. Those who are listed as 'Scottish/Welsh/ N Irish' will almost always be because they are solely involved in devolved (ie Scots/Welsh/N Irish) politics in Scots/Welsh/N Irish assemblies and/or because they are members of pro-independence political parties. I have never heard of Lammy being described as English. If he ever self-describes, it is as a local cultural identification akin to Bush describing himself as 'Texan', not something that overrides Lammy's citizenship (British) and area of political involvement (the UK). This is an attempt to impose a 'one-size-fits-all' logic by those who don't appear to understand either British politics or conventions.
Pincrete (
talk) 07:33, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
The English ones are mostly listed as British now.
You must be joking thinking a Sinn Féin politician is a British citizen?I'm not saying that (as I specifically noted). I'm saying that even though Finucane was born in the UK and was elected to the British parliament, it would be wrong to call him British. Those facts don't change that he's Irish. I did say I didn't see anything in his article to show that he's taken Irish citizenship.
nearly half of people born in Northern Ireland held an Irish passportabsolutely and it's why it not possible to have a simple one size fits all for all people in the UK. The fact remains that there are four nations of people inside the UK state
There has not been a government of England since 1707
There is no categorical preference between describing a person as British rather than as English, Scottish, or Welsh”. - SchroCat ( talk) 05:16, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Note: I have recently reverted attempts to change the description from "English" to "British". This was because those changes were accompanied by racist edit summaries and were obviously not genuine attempts to implement any consensus reached here. Please do not interpret this as a slight on those who want to make the same change for non-racist reasons. -- DanielRigal ( talk) 20:31, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
The section was just renamed, which got me to think the whole things should be broken up. Per WP:CRITS I'm thinking the different parts should be merged into the Views and Parliamentary career sections. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)