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-- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Shree Swasthi Srimad Udupi Sri Sonde Mutt Sri Vadiraja Guru Peetharoodha Srimad Vishwadheesha Thirtha Padangalauru,
Warm wishes to the Midaje Sime Gokarna shetgar Sanu,Mahabal shetti, Budhiwantha Subraya shetti ,Adigona shettigar ,Ram shetti, Durga shetti ,Shamanna shetti , Hosakeri Sham Appu shetti, Krishna Subraya shetti.
We are at the Admanandana Samvatsara Vaishaka Shudha and under penance, deeply busy with the Puja of Srimad Vadiraja, Shri Krishna, Sri Boovaraha ,Sri Hayagreeva and at the residence of shri Burde at Hosakeri.
In respect, this is to inform you that you are Mukhamasitha Daivajnya Suvarnakar Surya Brahmin, and attain the right of performing Yajna Karma and Shatkarma rituals . We may be able to make you satisfy by giving records of your existence in the Rigveda Purusha sukta ,Agni purana ,Skanda Purana, Manu Smrithi ,and Dharma Shastra etc. Daivajna vedamurthi Narayana Shanker Bhatta,Guddekagal taluk ,Kumta.
“Vishwabrahmakulothsaha” authored by Brahmasri. B.R. Kshirasagara –edition 6, page 139.
Common undisputed spellings like Ganesha, shudra, Maharashtra, Konkani etc. are unneccessarily spelt in IAST. That is a big readability issue. How many people will know "Mahārāṣṭra" (also spelt in the article as Maharshtra) is NOT a typos of Maharashtra, but something called IAST? IAST is OK in scholarly books for a scholarly audience, but one can not expect the audience of wikipedia be a reader of foreign author's IAST books. I wasted my time clicked on Peśvās and realizing it was plain Peshwas. This hindered my read.
I strongly recommend the author: Change the following back in English
Every other term is italicised in the article. Remove italics as much as possible
There is too much flowery language and also some personal opinions, and some grammar errors too.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 14 kilometers, use 14 kilometers, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 14 kilometers.
[?] *As done in
WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the
CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]
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You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Redtigerxyz Talk 13:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed a spurious paragraph based on unrealiable sources: "Technites,or the artist,as well as the Latin verb Texo,the obsolete Teuxo,now Teukho in Greek ,are derived from the Sanskrit Takṣa.Like Technites stand the eight drgree of lineal descent from Syayambhuva,adam or Protogonus. Tvaṣṭar was the grandfather of Maga and the present Manu." In reality, the Latin texo, the Greek tekhnites (τεχνίτης), and the Sanskrit taksan are cognates (IndoEuropean root *tek-). Tvaṣṭar does not seem to feature the same root (a reliable source has to be cited). The Greek teucho (τεύχω) features the IE root *dheugh- which is also unrelated to *tek-. -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 16:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I remain really concerned about this article. It is incredibly complex and seemingly very reliant on obscure sources of dubious merit. I realise that English-language sources may be thin on the ground but, honestly, the number of non-English sources written by seemingly non-notable authors and published by non-notable houses is astonishing. It may need some substantial pruning. - Sitush ( talk) 07:41, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
No one reply as all info is fake Sitush so start your work obviously everything will be in history no need to worry.It is Octobor now your statement dated January so hope wiki policy don't justify this rite? I am particularly showing you wrong statement hoping for your action! Raju Achar ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
We say It is possible that Vadirajatirtha bestowed the appellation Daivadnya when many of the community adopted the Madhwa religion under leadership of Vadiraja but there is valid proof for this claim
, which makes no sense. The quote that follows the sentence also makes no sense, in that instance because it has two wildly different sources, one of which is not even in English as far as I can tell. -
Sitush (
talk) 21:43, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
This whole section and citations speaks about karade,saraswth brahmins and konkonastha not daivdnyas.I have went through all the citations in this paragraph,If possible remove this paragraph built on wrong citation and add caste related stuffs............Anyone can check the above information!
Ganesh072 (
talk) 17:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi sitush can you please go through the above claimed content by that user once and also many other content has been placed there which don't have valid references.Please delete the content if no one is replying,obviously if it is justifiable they would have done untill now. In the whole site there is no relevant proof justifying the relation of parashuram with this page but they have added simply obviously in wiki fake content cannot be kept for more time.Rite? I have seen your name in many pages ending fake claims but why are you not taking action here,please do Take action if not they will start adding more fake content!! Raju Achar ( talk) 16:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Sitush only you can do this !.Please don't entertain these content I had visited all the references here yes majority of them are not refered in digital library and some are not in English.Obviously according to wiki policy these fake contents should be removed.Please do it soon if not in many pages once again vandalised may start vandalism keeping this page reference format as reference (Once again my well formatted contents will be vandalised:( ). Raju Achar ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
By the way this claim of user:Gowrish seems perfect which ever reference I visited speaks about either konkan creation, saraswat Brahmins,konkonasta brahmin and karade brahmin(I saw mainly migration of saraswat brahmin with parashuram and some researchers giving archeological evidence with some opposing this as brahminism) but I didn't found Daivadnya anywhere!? Lol. My personal point brought me here was sivagama and jyotishya origin which don't have valid references but also they have kept it here I don't know still how many loop wholes are there! If you cannot open documents obviously better to remove since they have given wrong reference they do some tricks like this .Hoping for the same action you took in komati and other North Indian brahmin pages!!! Raju Achar ( talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"Daiva jānati iti daivajñaḥ is literally translated as the one who knows the fate is Daivadnya or "the one who knows about God is Daivadnya", and can be interpreted as the one who knows about the future is a Daivadnya; or the one is well versed in Śilpaśāstra and can craft an idol of God is called a Daivadnya.[5][page needed][8][clarification"
This is one example of some of many exaggerated biased wordings.Actually this means something else but someone has user here and reference is not from any researcher but from caste writer and other references is blank page. Like this atlmost 80-90 percentage of this article is filled with unauthenticated fake contents without reference non valid for wiki standards. So my request is please don't entertain this instead start trimming. ~~ Raju Achar ( talk) 02:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
27 Jan 2017 is the date where you have asked citation but I didn't find any reply till now but you will take instant action as per my knowledge but why are you delaying here!!Obviously citation is there you can go through it definitely you will find the fakeness of majority of this article.If you are indicating any user: nijg obviously if he have citation let him come giving 8 months to reply? Raju Achar ( talk) 13:57, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 13:57, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Whole section is not related to daivdnya caste
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
At least let's start from this section I personally read all the citaions and found this as wrongly kept sentence here so please go through this sentence and after that obviously you will understand what I am trying to convey(After reading citaion if you find irrelevant info first delete this statement).
You may give time to ambiguous statements but how can you give time for these statements which is appearantly wrong!!!! Waiting for reply or actions Sitush Raju Achar ( talk) 14:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 14:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I have just reverted here. Thank you for providing an edit summary explaining your contention that there is no connection between the Daivadnya and the Sonars but it does appear to be sourced. Is the source unreliable? Is it misrepresented? The only way we will move on is by discussing the issue. I admit that the entire article is incredibly messy and reliant on far too many sources closely connected to the community but we have to start somewhere in sorting it out. This is as good as point to start as any. When the discussions are all over, I suspect it will be half the size that it is currently because it is ridiculous. - Sitush ( talk) 00:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Pinging @ DiavadnyaInfo: because I am not sure if they're aware of talk pages. - Sitush ( talk) 00:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
And please note my earlier comment at Talk:Daivadnya_Brahmin#Sourcing above. - Sitush ( talk) 00:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I have just made a large revert. As previous notes on this talk page indicate, the article is a mess of excessive detail, poor writing and poor sourcing. The last thing this needs is yet more expansion in a similar vein (blimey, the recent stuff even included citations of Enthoven, who has long been considered unreliable). There has clearly been a lot of work put in by one or two people who have a keen interest in this caste and appear to be often oblivious to the finer points of how an encyclopaedia is supposed to operate and the purposes for which it exists. It needs to stop, we need to take stock of what already exists, and we need to prune it drastically. Whether the actual word count goes up or down isn't really the point: the detail is way too confusing and specious. - Sitush ( talk) 07:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps we could make a start by just concentrating on one section at a time? Can anyone resolve the queries tagged for what is now the "Names" section? And please provide quotations from all of the offline sources? - Sitush ( talk) 07:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
The version of "Names" that I have just reverted was then called "Etymology" and "Appellations" - see here. Aside from the obvious problem of citing Enthoven, it also contained a nonsense because the etymological explanation included the word daivadnya in its definition of daivadnya - that is circular. - Sitush ( talk) 08:00, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I am in the process of archiving a lot of old posts on this page. The ones that make statements without sources and/or ask general questions about kuladevata etc and/or quote ancient primary sources are simply not useful to improvement of this article. - Sitush ( talk) 07:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Most sources are caste based or Raj era. Also, most academic sources refer to them as "Daivadnya Sonars"(goldsmiths) that call themselves "Daivadnya Brahmins". For example see this simple search : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Daivadnya+sonar— Preceding unsigned comment added by Acharya63 ( talk • contribs)
How do I upload images of the festivals celebrated by this community in Goa and Mumbai? ComMentist ( talk) 16:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Nijgoykar, I reverted your edit for Brahmin as it was not sourced. See here. Please discuss on the talk page with concerned editors . Also pinging @ Jonathansammy: and MRRaja001. I don't know the answer to this as I have not looked deeply into the sources yet. LukeEmily ( talk) 15:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Among Sonars there are jatis in Maharashtra which call themselves Daivadnya Sonar , Lad Sonar , Ahir Sonar , etc. Other sources agree with Karve when discussing their varna. They are a subcaste of the Goldsmith caste. Daivadnya Brahmin(Sonars) will mean they are often referred to as Daivadnya Brahmins by sources but are actually sonars and not Brahmins. Here are some facts about the dispute in 1824. As you may know, Hindu scriptures such as Puranas or other texts were used to settle such disputes. In case of the Daivadnya, one of the texts used was a text by Hemadpant, a Brahmin from the 13th century. The final decision of the Brahmin scholars was that based on the text - Daivadnya are not Brahmins - this decision was never overturned by other Brahmin scholars or any Brahmin leaders like the Shankaracharyas. The Sonars then fired the Brahmin Priests working in their homes and appointed their own priests. The Brahmins tried to get the British to stop the sonars but the British refused to intervene. Such disputes were common but the point is that the decision of the religious council was never overturned. The Sonars did not care about the decision based on the scripture by Hemadpant. But the summary is as per Hindu scriptures they are not Brahmins and the Brahmin scholars explicitly came to that conclusion after the debates and study of the scriptures. The modern scholars (except one) do not classify them in the Brahmin varna. The just use that name(Brahmin) although they are not Brahmin - and hence sources and courts use the same name. We can discuss further. LukeEmily ( talk) 20:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
References
@ Kautilya3: I have written about this in the lead section. I think it is not necessary to mention "The Daivdanyas also called as Daivadnya Brahmins" again. Since I have already explained this. What do you say? - MRRaja001 ( talk) 08:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
I am from Pune and many of my family members married GSB's. I request you to not take any controversial sources about GSB personally as on wikipedia we never give our personal opinion. For me the similarity is : Both castes claimed Brahminhood, both castes eat meat, both castes were educated, both castes were opposed by the established Brahmins, both are eferred to as "X Brahmins" by multiple sources. Both castes are differentiated from brahmins by some sources. What is the difference between them in terms of Brahmin status? LukeEmily ( talk) 17:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
You will also find examples of marriages between Daivadnyas and Chitpavans, or Deshasthas and vegetarian non-Brahmins, Brahmins and Marathas, etc..— Marriages is a broad term. I am talking about arranged marriages here. Arranged marriages between them as you mentioned is impossible. I am not talking about Love marriages. Hope you understood. - MRRaja001 ( talk) 00:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
they even eat all kinds non-vegetarian foods like their Non-Brahmins counterparts."? - What do you mean by this? Do Daivadnya Brahmins eat pork?I have written all about their diet with proper citation in "Diet" section. You can refer to it. Reply to this
You should cite sources for how they were treated in Goa and then say if they are Brahmins or not.In 1st and 2nd citations itself there are clear details about their claims in Goa and Karnataka. Daivadnyas claim that they are descendants of Daivdnya or Vishwadnya, the younger son of Vishwakarma. Is this true or not? See I don't have any hatred against any community but I am againt the communities who use Wikipedia to mislead people and promote something else rather than the fact. Hope I answered you. - MRRaja001 ( talk) 08:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
we cannot say in Wikipedia voice that they are Brahminsif any modern sources mention disputes or doubts the claim. But we should give all opinions as per WP:NPOV. About changing the name to Daivadnya Brahmins, I am not sure, I have seen sources use both Daivadnya Brahmins and Daivadnya Sonars. Don't know which is more popular with locals. Adding Brahmins to the name does not imply that they are part of the Brahmin subgroup. Please can you list some high quality sources in a separate section where they are called Daivadnya Brahmins and where they are called Daivadnya sonars? LukeEmily ( talk) 20:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
"Brahmin" at its inception was a jati. It was also designated as a varna. [2] This double-existence is probably what led the British administrators to coin the word " caste" for both the concepts and pretend that they were talking sense.
This was not the case with the other varnas. Shudra and Vaishya were always varnas, never jatis. Kshatriya was initially a jati, but by the end of the Gupta Empire, there were so few Kshatriyas that they had to treat it as a varna, and admit new groups of people into it.
What this means for our purpose here is that Brahminhood is hard-wired into birth. People cannot be simply given "Brahmin status", unlike for the other varnas. (Kshatriyas were also not simply "given status", but were given concocted genealogies, thereby maintaining the pretense that the Kshatriya expansion was still birth-driven. But whoever was doing the concoction obviously knew what they were doing! "Vaishya status", on the other hand, is not particularly sought after.)
The upshot is that the Brahmins get to say who Brahmins are. Nobody else does. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 04:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
[previous comment by Vernekar123]
References
This
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Please remove Christianity from the infobox, Daivadnya caste practises Hinduism only. Those members who converted to Islam and Christianity during Sultanate and Portuguese rule are no longer part of it. 42.107.64.10 ( talk) 20:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Daivadnya brahmins are not just daivadnyas. They belong to an upper and superior Brahmin community since ancestry as there are many articles proving Daivadnya brahmins performing Yagnas and Yogas across India, specifically in the North Indian region. Daivadnya brahmins follow rigveda and all rituals affiliated to the same. This community in ancestry belonged to astrology and yagnas. And for the correction, Daivadnya brahmins are a descendants of Sakaldwipi Brahmin or Maga Brahmin and not from Vishwakarma community. Air01droid ( talk) 06:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Irrespective of whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not, their names based on my search on google books is "Daivadnya Brahmin" - not Daivadnya. A community is free to call itself whatever it wants. Whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not is irrelevant to the name. @ Jonathansammy:, do you think the name is correct? GSB also have this issue (no concensus on varna) but we still call them by the name they use for themselves. Should this page be renamed to Daivadnya Brahmin (irrespective of their varna)? LukeEmily ( talk) 18:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
The Daivajña or Daivadnya is an ethno-religious community and a Hindu Brahmin sub-caste of the west coast of India, predominantly residing in the states of Goa, coastal Karnataka, and coastal Maharashtra. The state of Goa is considered to be the original homeland of Daivadnyas. They are believed to have flourished and prospered in Goa and hence sometimes they are calledGomantaka Daivajña. Due to many socio-economic reasons, they emigrated to different parts of India within the last few centuries
They are commonly known as Śeṭ in the coastal region. The word Śeṭ is a corrupt form of the word Śreṣṭha or Śreṣṭhin, which could mean excellent, distinguished, or superior. Over time the word was transformed from Śreṣṭha to Śeṭ.[4] Most of the older generation from the Daivajña community in Goa call themselves Śeṭī Bāmaṇ, which is a corrupt form of Śreṣṭhi Brāhmaṇa. The Portuguese referred these people as Xete (cf. Xett, Xete) or sometimes Chatim (cf. Xatim), which is now Cyātī in the Konkani language; the word was a Portuguese appellation for "trader" derived from the local word Śreṣṭhin. Daivajña Brāhmaṇa and Gomantaka Daivajña Brāhmaṇa are sometimes abbreviated as DB and GDB respectively.
The exact reason,why they are called Daivajna is debatable. Yet it is quite possible that it was Vadirajatirtha who bestowed the appellation Daivadnya onto them when many of them adopted Madhwa religion under leadership of Vadiraja,whom the aforesaid had gifted an idol of Hayagriva.
Daiva jānati iti daivajñaḥ - is literally translated as the one who knows the fate is Daivadnya or "the one who knows about God is Daivadnya", and can be interpreted as the one who knows about the future is a Daivadnya; or the one is well versed in Śilpaśāstra and can craft an idol of God is called a Daivadnya .
In Vedas, Taittariya Samhita, Shatapatha Brahmana, sage Kashyapa is recorded as an eminent artisan.His book Kashyapa Samhita,along with Bhrigu Samhita and Maya Samhita recognises Daivadnya as assistant engineer. Daivadnya is mentioned as the title of the assistant engineer.Their work was like that of a draughtsman or evaluator.It is said that astrology began from this class of ancient vedic Daivadnyas.So the term Daivadnya became equivalent to astrologer.Even though there are no reference of people of this modern caste practising only astrology in past few centuries,it is probable that the caste name has come from the ancient Daivadnyas mentioned in the texts above. Though it was not a caste but just a profession it is quite possible that their descendants called themselves Daivadnyas too.
Historians believe that the Daivadnya Brahmins originated with Sun- and Fire-worshipping priests, analogous to the Brahmins. These priests were mentioned in ancient Hindu scriptures such as Bhaviṣya Puraṇa,Viṣṇupuraṇa, and Mahabharata.[citation needed] They crafted an idol of the sun god Surya; hence they are called Murtikara.These sun-worshipper priests were called Magas.
Historians Viṭhṭhala Mitragotri, Sridhara Veṅkaṭesa Ketkara, Paṇduraṅga Puruṣottama Siroḍkara and Ba. Da. Satoskar have concluded that Seṭs are descendants of the Bhojakas and have inherited the art of crafting an idol from the Bhojakas. Bhojakas are also called Gaṇakas, which is synonymous with Daivajña. Daivajñas are descendants of Bhojakas, who migrated to Goa in the fourth or sixth century AD with a Kshatriya tribe called Bhojas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ichhadhari Prashant ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
Peshwa era source is categorising them as shudras,this community started calling them as brahmins recently as per the sources.Thier own website is associating themself with Gaud Saraswat brahmin's Mutt(Smartha mutt) and justifying thier claim.There is no verdict of any high level vedic bodies like Kashi pandits on this community as in the case of shenvi sub-division of GSB.There is no favourable verdict of shankaracharya as in the case of Yajurvedi desastha,Padhe karhade and CKP.probably court too denied thier brahmin status(verdict was status quo).Historically they were called sonars or mentioned as Ratakara(sankrit:Mixed origin).So discussion is required as the article should be in the range NPOV.I can point out some caste push source with primary sources and probably will add secondary sources but not a single secondary source is associating them will brahmin.What's your take on this @
Jonathansammy and @
LukeEmily as I saw you moving this caste from daivadny to daivadny brahmin.Hope you can share that information which may help in developing this article.
Regards,
Fadnavis
Rajeshfadnavis (
talk) 17:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Ekdalian:, we need to use the common name for any community. GSb has become a common name although some call the saraswats or gaud saraswats. The sonars call themselves daivadnya brahmin. However, the sources also refer to them by that name (for whatever reason). This does not mean that they are brahmins. I dont think they are brahmins. But I feel the name hardly matters since we clarify that their brahmin claim is not accepted. But we cannot change the name that is commonly used for them by society. It is either sonar or daivadnya brahmin. The court documents as well as news papers also use the words "daivadnya brahmins". But that does not mean the courts consider them brahmins. Using only the word "daivadnya" is neither here nor there. A person opposing their brahmin claim would explicitly call them sonar or maybe daivadnya sonar but not Daivadnya. My main point was that the academic sources that give synonyms use daivadnya brahmin as a synonym not daivadnya. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy, Sitush, and Ekdalian:, check this news here : https://www.huffpost.com/archive/in/entry/this-open-badminton-tournament-in-karnataka-is-closed-for-non-br_n_7567712 . Also if you check the law cases in Indian courts https://indiankanoon.org/doc/510545/ https://nearlaw.com/PDF/MumbaiHC/2013/2013(2)-ALL-MR-195.html https://goemkarponn.com/akhil-gomatakiya-daivadnya-brahmin-youth-association-agdbya-celebrated-childrens-day-in-rural-goa/ the word daivadnya is not used. Requesting second opinion. I feel the name of the page should be Diavadnya Brahmin although they are not brahmin as per WP:COMMONNAME. Does the Vishwakarma caste have sources that call them vishwakarma brahmin (will check) LukeEmily ( talk) 18:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
References
I feel this page should be called sonar. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
As suggested by LukeEmily above, I would like to formally propose the renaming of the article as Sonar (caste), keeping all alternate names within brackets in the lede as usual. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
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122.171.238.55 ( talk) 11:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
they are vegetarians eating rice is a main source.
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-- Redtigerxyz Talk 05:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Shree Swasthi Srimad Udupi Sri Sonde Mutt Sri Vadiraja Guru Peetharoodha Srimad Vishwadheesha Thirtha Padangalauru,
Warm wishes to the Midaje Sime Gokarna shetgar Sanu,Mahabal shetti, Budhiwantha Subraya shetti ,Adigona shettigar ,Ram shetti, Durga shetti ,Shamanna shetti , Hosakeri Sham Appu shetti, Krishna Subraya shetti.
We are at the Admanandana Samvatsara Vaishaka Shudha and under penance, deeply busy with the Puja of Srimad Vadiraja, Shri Krishna, Sri Boovaraha ,Sri Hayagreeva and at the residence of shri Burde at Hosakeri.
In respect, this is to inform you that you are Mukhamasitha Daivajnya Suvarnakar Surya Brahmin, and attain the right of performing Yajna Karma and Shatkarma rituals . We may be able to make you satisfy by giving records of your existence in the Rigveda Purusha sukta ,Agni purana ,Skanda Purana, Manu Smrithi ,and Dharma Shastra etc. Daivajna vedamurthi Narayana Shanker Bhatta,Guddekagal taluk ,Kumta.
“Vishwabrahmakulothsaha” authored by Brahmasri. B.R. Kshirasagara –edition 6, page 139.
Common undisputed spellings like Ganesha, shudra, Maharashtra, Konkani etc. are unneccessarily spelt in IAST. That is a big readability issue. How many people will know "Mahārāṣṭra" (also spelt in the article as Maharshtra) is NOT a typos of Maharashtra, but something called IAST? IAST is OK in scholarly books for a scholarly audience, but one can not expect the audience of wikipedia be a reader of foreign author's IAST books. I wasted my time clicked on Peśvās and realizing it was plain Peshwas. This hindered my read.
I strongly recommend the author: Change the following back in English
Every other term is italicised in the article. Remove italics as much as possible
There is too much flowery language and also some personal opinions, and some grammar errors too.-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:02, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
-- Redtigerxyz Talk 14:07, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 14 kilometers, use 14 kilometers, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 14 kilometers.
[?] *As done in
WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the
CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2]
[?]
You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Redtigerxyz Talk 13:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed a spurious paragraph based on unrealiable sources: "Technites,or the artist,as well as the Latin verb Texo,the obsolete Teuxo,now Teukho in Greek ,are derived from the Sanskrit Takṣa.Like Technites stand the eight drgree of lineal descent from Syayambhuva,adam or Protogonus. Tvaṣṭar was the grandfather of Maga and the present Manu." In reality, the Latin texo, the Greek tekhnites (τεχνίτης), and the Sanskrit taksan are cognates (IndoEuropean root *tek-). Tvaṣṭar does not seem to feature the same root (a reliable source has to be cited). The Greek teucho (τεύχω) features the IE root *dheugh- which is also unrelated to *tek-. -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 16:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I remain really concerned about this article. It is incredibly complex and seemingly very reliant on obscure sources of dubious merit. I realise that English-language sources may be thin on the ground but, honestly, the number of non-English sources written by seemingly non-notable authors and published by non-notable houses is astonishing. It may need some substantial pruning. - Sitush ( talk) 07:41, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
No one reply as all info is fake Sitush so start your work obviously everything will be in history no need to worry.It is Octobor now your statement dated January so hope wiki policy don't justify this rite? I am particularly showing you wrong statement hoping for your action! Raju Achar ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 14:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
We say It is possible that Vadirajatirtha bestowed the appellation Daivadnya when many of the community adopted the Madhwa religion under leadership of Vadiraja but there is valid proof for this claim
, which makes no sense. The quote that follows the sentence also makes no sense, in that instance because it has two wildly different sources, one of which is not even in English as far as I can tell. -
Sitush (
talk) 21:43, 30 September 2017 (UTC)
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
This whole section and citations speaks about karade,saraswth brahmins and konkonastha not daivdnyas.I have went through all the citations in this paragraph,If possible remove this paragraph built on wrong citation and add caste related stuffs............Anyone can check the above information!
Ganesh072 (
talk) 17:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi sitush can you please go through the above claimed content by that user once and also many other content has been placed there which don't have valid references.Please delete the content if no one is replying,obviously if it is justifiable they would have done untill now. In the whole site there is no relevant proof justifying the relation of parashuram with this page but they have added simply obviously in wiki fake content cannot be kept for more time.Rite? I have seen your name in many pages ending fake claims but why are you not taking action here,please do Take action if not they will start adding more fake content!! Raju Achar ( talk) 16:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Sitush only you can do this !.Please don't entertain these content I had visited all the references here yes majority of them are not refered in digital library and some are not in English.Obviously according to wiki policy these fake contents should be removed.Please do it soon if not in many pages once again vandalised may start vandalism keeping this page reference format as reference (Once again my well formatted contents will be vandalised:( ). Raju Achar ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 01:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
By the way this claim of user:Gowrish seems perfect which ever reference I visited speaks about either konkan creation, saraswat Brahmins,konkonasta brahmin and karade brahmin(I saw mainly migration of saraswat brahmin with parashuram and some researchers giving archeological evidence with some opposing this as brahminism) but I didn't found Daivadnya anywhere!? Lol. My personal point brought me here was sivagama and jyotishya origin which don't have valid references but also they have kept it here I don't know still how many loop wholes are there! If you cannot open documents obviously better to remove since they have given wrong reference they do some tricks like this .Hoping for the same action you took in komati and other North Indian brahmin pages!!! Raju Achar ( talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 01:55, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
"Daiva jānati iti daivajñaḥ is literally translated as the one who knows the fate is Daivadnya or "the one who knows about God is Daivadnya", and can be interpreted as the one who knows about the future is a Daivadnya; or the one is well versed in Śilpaśāstra and can craft an idol of God is called a Daivadnya.[5][page needed][8][clarification"
This is one example of some of many exaggerated biased wordings.Actually this means something else but someone has user here and reference is not from any researcher but from caste writer and other references is blank page. Like this atlmost 80-90 percentage of this article is filled with unauthenticated fake contents without reference non valid for wiki standards. So my request is please don't entertain this instead start trimming. ~~ Raju Achar ( talk) 02:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
27 Jan 2017 is the date where you have asked citation but I didn't find any reply till now but you will take instant action as per my knowledge but why are you delaying here!!Obviously citation is there you can go through it definitely you will find the fakeness of majority of this article.If you are indicating any user: nijg obviously if he have citation let him come giving 8 months to reply? Raju Achar ( talk) 13:57, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 13:57, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Whole section is not related to daivdnya caste
"The Daivadnyas claim that they came to Goa in the south in 2500 BCE to assist those Brahmins who came with Parashurama to perform yajna (ritualistic sacrifices) and are believed to have settled in various agraharas with other Brahmins.[18][19] That date is disputed, with some scholars saying it was during fourth to sixth century CE, others saying 700 BCE, and some supporting the community's claim of 2500 BCE. Research by scholars like Dharmananda Damodar Kosambi[20] and Bhau Daji[21][22] claim that these mythologies serves as a symbol of the sanskritisation that, then Goan culture experienced with the advent of Brahminical religion to this region but some scholars reject these claims by providing proofs of migration.[23][24][25]"
At least let's start from this section I personally read all the citaions and found this as wrongly kept sentence here so please go through this sentence and after that obviously you will understand what I am trying to convey(After reading citaion if you find irrelevant info first delete this statement).
You may give time to ambiguous statements but how can you give time for these statements which is appearantly wrong!!!! Waiting for reply or actions Sitush Raju Achar ( talk) 14:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC) Raju Achar ( talk) 14:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I have just reverted here. Thank you for providing an edit summary explaining your contention that there is no connection between the Daivadnya and the Sonars but it does appear to be sourced. Is the source unreliable? Is it misrepresented? The only way we will move on is by discussing the issue. I admit that the entire article is incredibly messy and reliant on far too many sources closely connected to the community but we have to start somewhere in sorting it out. This is as good as point to start as any. When the discussions are all over, I suspect it will be half the size that it is currently because it is ridiculous. - Sitush ( talk) 00:26, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Pinging @ DiavadnyaInfo: because I am not sure if they're aware of talk pages. - Sitush ( talk) 00:38, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
And please note my earlier comment at Talk:Daivadnya_Brahmin#Sourcing above. - Sitush ( talk) 00:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I have just made a large revert. As previous notes on this talk page indicate, the article is a mess of excessive detail, poor writing and poor sourcing. The last thing this needs is yet more expansion in a similar vein (blimey, the recent stuff even included citations of Enthoven, who has long been considered unreliable). There has clearly been a lot of work put in by one or two people who have a keen interest in this caste and appear to be often oblivious to the finer points of how an encyclopaedia is supposed to operate and the purposes for which it exists. It needs to stop, we need to take stock of what already exists, and we need to prune it drastically. Whether the actual word count goes up or down isn't really the point: the detail is way too confusing and specious. - Sitush ( talk) 07:16, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps we could make a start by just concentrating on one section at a time? Can anyone resolve the queries tagged for what is now the "Names" section? And please provide quotations from all of the offline sources? - Sitush ( talk) 07:39, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
The version of "Names" that I have just reverted was then called "Etymology" and "Appellations" - see here. Aside from the obvious problem of citing Enthoven, it also contained a nonsense because the etymological explanation included the word daivadnya in its definition of daivadnya - that is circular. - Sitush ( talk) 08:00, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
I am in the process of archiving a lot of old posts on this page. The ones that make statements without sources and/or ask general questions about kuladevata etc and/or quote ancient primary sources are simply not useful to improvement of this article. - Sitush ( talk) 07:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Most sources are caste based or Raj era. Also, most academic sources refer to them as "Daivadnya Sonars"(goldsmiths) that call themselves "Daivadnya Brahmins". For example see this simple search : https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=Daivadnya+sonar— Preceding unsigned comment added by Acharya63 ( talk • contribs)
How do I upload images of the festivals celebrated by this community in Goa and Mumbai? ComMentist ( talk) 16:41, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Nijgoykar, I reverted your edit for Brahmin as it was not sourced. See here. Please discuss on the talk page with concerned editors . Also pinging @ Jonathansammy: and MRRaja001. I don't know the answer to this as I have not looked deeply into the sources yet. LukeEmily ( talk) 15:50, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Among Sonars there are jatis in Maharashtra which call themselves Daivadnya Sonar , Lad Sonar , Ahir Sonar , etc. Other sources agree with Karve when discussing their varna. They are a subcaste of the Goldsmith caste. Daivadnya Brahmin(Sonars) will mean they are often referred to as Daivadnya Brahmins by sources but are actually sonars and not Brahmins. Here are some facts about the dispute in 1824. As you may know, Hindu scriptures such as Puranas or other texts were used to settle such disputes. In case of the Daivadnya, one of the texts used was a text by Hemadpant, a Brahmin from the 13th century. The final decision of the Brahmin scholars was that based on the text - Daivadnya are not Brahmins - this decision was never overturned by other Brahmin scholars or any Brahmin leaders like the Shankaracharyas. The Sonars then fired the Brahmin Priests working in their homes and appointed their own priests. The Brahmins tried to get the British to stop the sonars but the British refused to intervene. Such disputes were common but the point is that the decision of the religious council was never overturned. The Sonars did not care about the decision based on the scripture by Hemadpant. But the summary is as per Hindu scriptures they are not Brahmins and the Brahmin scholars explicitly came to that conclusion after the debates and study of the scriptures. The modern scholars (except one) do not classify them in the Brahmin varna. The just use that name(Brahmin) although they are not Brahmin - and hence sources and courts use the same name. We can discuss further. LukeEmily ( talk) 20:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
References
@ Kautilya3: I have written about this in the lead section. I think it is not necessary to mention "The Daivdanyas also called as Daivadnya Brahmins" again. Since I have already explained this. What do you say? - MRRaja001 ( talk) 08:53, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
I am from Pune and many of my family members married GSB's. I request you to not take any controversial sources about GSB personally as on wikipedia we never give our personal opinion. For me the similarity is : Both castes claimed Brahminhood, both castes eat meat, both castes were educated, both castes were opposed by the established Brahmins, both are eferred to as "X Brahmins" by multiple sources. Both castes are differentiated from brahmins by some sources. What is the difference between them in terms of Brahmin status? LukeEmily ( talk) 17:39, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
You will also find examples of marriages between Daivadnyas and Chitpavans, or Deshasthas and vegetarian non-Brahmins, Brahmins and Marathas, etc..— Marriages is a broad term. I am talking about arranged marriages here. Arranged marriages between them as you mentioned is impossible. I am not talking about Love marriages. Hope you understood. - MRRaja001 ( talk) 00:47, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
they even eat all kinds non-vegetarian foods like their Non-Brahmins counterparts."? - What do you mean by this? Do Daivadnya Brahmins eat pork?I have written all about their diet with proper citation in "Diet" section. You can refer to it. Reply to this
You should cite sources for how they were treated in Goa and then say if they are Brahmins or not.In 1st and 2nd citations itself there are clear details about their claims in Goa and Karnataka. Daivadnyas claim that they are descendants of Daivdnya or Vishwadnya, the younger son of Vishwakarma. Is this true or not? See I don't have any hatred against any community but I am againt the communities who use Wikipedia to mislead people and promote something else rather than the fact. Hope I answered you. - MRRaja001 ( talk) 08:09, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
we cannot say in Wikipedia voice that they are Brahminsif any modern sources mention disputes or doubts the claim. But we should give all opinions as per WP:NPOV. About changing the name to Daivadnya Brahmins, I am not sure, I have seen sources use both Daivadnya Brahmins and Daivadnya Sonars. Don't know which is more popular with locals. Adding Brahmins to the name does not imply that they are part of the Brahmin subgroup. Please can you list some high quality sources in a separate section where they are called Daivadnya Brahmins and where they are called Daivadnya sonars? LukeEmily ( talk) 20:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
"Brahmin" at its inception was a jati. It was also designated as a varna. [2] This double-existence is probably what led the British administrators to coin the word " caste" for both the concepts and pretend that they were talking sense.
This was not the case with the other varnas. Shudra and Vaishya were always varnas, never jatis. Kshatriya was initially a jati, but by the end of the Gupta Empire, there were so few Kshatriyas that they had to treat it as a varna, and admit new groups of people into it.
What this means for our purpose here is that Brahminhood is hard-wired into birth. People cannot be simply given "Brahmin status", unlike for the other varnas. (Kshatriyas were also not simply "given status", but were given concocted genealogies, thereby maintaining the pretense that the Kshatriya expansion was still birth-driven. But whoever was doing the concoction obviously knew what they were doing! "Vaishya status", on the other hand, is not particularly sought after.)
The upshot is that the Brahmins get to say who Brahmins are. Nobody else does. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 04:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
[previous comment by Vernekar123]
References
This
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Please remove Christianity from the infobox, Daivadnya caste practises Hinduism only. Those members who converted to Islam and Christianity during Sultanate and Portuguese rule are no longer part of it. 42.107.64.10 ( talk) 20:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Daivadnya brahmins are not just daivadnyas. They belong to an upper and superior Brahmin community since ancestry as there are many articles proving Daivadnya brahmins performing Yagnas and Yogas across India, specifically in the North Indian region. Daivadnya brahmins follow rigveda and all rituals affiliated to the same. This community in ancestry belonged to astrology and yagnas. And for the correction, Daivadnya brahmins are a descendants of Sakaldwipi Brahmin or Maga Brahmin and not from Vishwakarma community. Air01droid ( talk) 06:00, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
Irrespective of whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not, their names based on my search on google books is "Daivadnya Brahmin" - not Daivadnya. A community is free to call itself whatever it wants. Whether they are accepted as Brahmins or not is irrelevant to the name. @ Jonathansammy:, do you think the name is correct? GSB also have this issue (no concensus on varna) but we still call them by the name they use for themselves. Should this page be renamed to Daivadnya Brahmin (irrespective of their varna)? LukeEmily ( talk) 18:03, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
The Daivajña or Daivadnya is an ethno-religious community and a Hindu Brahmin sub-caste of the west coast of India, predominantly residing in the states of Goa, coastal Karnataka, and coastal Maharashtra. The state of Goa is considered to be the original homeland of Daivadnyas. They are believed to have flourished and prospered in Goa and hence sometimes they are calledGomantaka Daivajña. Due to many socio-economic reasons, they emigrated to different parts of India within the last few centuries
They are commonly known as Śeṭ in the coastal region. The word Śeṭ is a corrupt form of the word Śreṣṭha or Śreṣṭhin, which could mean excellent, distinguished, or superior. Over time the word was transformed from Śreṣṭha to Śeṭ.[4] Most of the older generation from the Daivajña community in Goa call themselves Śeṭī Bāmaṇ, which is a corrupt form of Śreṣṭhi Brāhmaṇa. The Portuguese referred these people as Xete (cf. Xett, Xete) or sometimes Chatim (cf. Xatim), which is now Cyātī in the Konkani language; the word was a Portuguese appellation for "trader" derived from the local word Śreṣṭhin. Daivajña Brāhmaṇa and Gomantaka Daivajña Brāhmaṇa are sometimes abbreviated as DB and GDB respectively.
The exact reason,why they are called Daivajna is debatable. Yet it is quite possible that it was Vadirajatirtha who bestowed the appellation Daivadnya onto them when many of them adopted Madhwa religion under leadership of Vadiraja,whom the aforesaid had gifted an idol of Hayagriva.
Daiva jānati iti daivajñaḥ - is literally translated as the one who knows the fate is Daivadnya or "the one who knows about God is Daivadnya", and can be interpreted as the one who knows about the future is a Daivadnya; or the one is well versed in Śilpaśāstra and can craft an idol of God is called a Daivadnya .
In Vedas, Taittariya Samhita, Shatapatha Brahmana, sage Kashyapa is recorded as an eminent artisan.His book Kashyapa Samhita,along with Bhrigu Samhita and Maya Samhita recognises Daivadnya as assistant engineer. Daivadnya is mentioned as the title of the assistant engineer.Their work was like that of a draughtsman or evaluator.It is said that astrology began from this class of ancient vedic Daivadnyas.So the term Daivadnya became equivalent to astrologer.Even though there are no reference of people of this modern caste practising only astrology in past few centuries,it is probable that the caste name has come from the ancient Daivadnyas mentioned in the texts above. Though it was not a caste but just a profession it is quite possible that their descendants called themselves Daivadnyas too.
Historians believe that the Daivadnya Brahmins originated with Sun- and Fire-worshipping priests, analogous to the Brahmins. These priests were mentioned in ancient Hindu scriptures such as Bhaviṣya Puraṇa,Viṣṇupuraṇa, and Mahabharata.[citation needed] They crafted an idol of the sun god Surya; hence they are called Murtikara.These sun-worshipper priests were called Magas.
Historians Viṭhṭhala Mitragotri, Sridhara Veṅkaṭesa Ketkara, Paṇduraṅga Puruṣottama Siroḍkara and Ba. Da. Satoskar have concluded that Seṭs are descendants of the Bhojakas and have inherited the art of crafting an idol from the Bhojakas. Bhojakas are also called Gaṇakas, which is synonymous with Daivajña. Daivajñas are descendants of Bhojakas, who migrated to Goa in the fourth or sixth century AD with a Kshatriya tribe called Bhojas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ichhadhari Prashant ( talk • contribs) 06:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
Peshwa era source is categorising them as shudras,this community started calling them as brahmins recently as per the sources.Thier own website is associating themself with Gaud Saraswat brahmin's Mutt(Smartha mutt) and justifying thier claim.There is no verdict of any high level vedic bodies like Kashi pandits on this community as in the case of shenvi sub-division of GSB.There is no favourable verdict of shankaracharya as in the case of Yajurvedi desastha,Padhe karhade and CKP.probably court too denied thier brahmin status(verdict was status quo).Historically they were called sonars or mentioned as Ratakara(sankrit:Mixed origin).So discussion is required as the article should be in the range NPOV.I can point out some caste push source with primary sources and probably will add secondary sources but not a single secondary source is associating them will brahmin.What's your take on this @
Jonathansammy and @
LukeEmily as I saw you moving this caste from daivadny to daivadny brahmin.Hope you can share that information which may help in developing this article.
Regards,
Fadnavis
Rajeshfadnavis (
talk) 17:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Ekdalian:, we need to use the common name for any community. GSb has become a common name although some call the saraswats or gaud saraswats. The sonars call themselves daivadnya brahmin. However, the sources also refer to them by that name (for whatever reason). This does not mean that they are brahmins. I dont think they are brahmins. But I feel the name hardly matters since we clarify that their brahmin claim is not accepted. But we cannot change the name that is commonly used for them by society. It is either sonar or daivadnya brahmin. The court documents as well as news papers also use the words "daivadnya brahmins". But that does not mean the courts consider them brahmins. Using only the word "daivadnya" is neither here nor there. A person opposing their brahmin claim would explicitly call them sonar or maybe daivadnya sonar but not Daivadnya. My main point was that the academic sources that give synonyms use daivadnya brahmin as a synonym not daivadnya. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
@ Jonathansammy, Sitush, and Ekdalian:, check this news here : https://www.huffpost.com/archive/in/entry/this-open-badminton-tournament-in-karnataka-is-closed-for-non-br_n_7567712 . Also if you check the law cases in Indian courts https://indiankanoon.org/doc/510545/ https://nearlaw.com/PDF/MumbaiHC/2013/2013(2)-ALL-MR-195.html https://goemkarponn.com/akhil-gomatakiya-daivadnya-brahmin-youth-association-agdbya-celebrated-childrens-day-in-rural-goa/ the word daivadnya is not used. Requesting second opinion. I feel the name of the page should be Diavadnya Brahmin although they are not brahmin as per WP:COMMONNAME. Does the Vishwakarma caste have sources that call them vishwakarma brahmin (will check) LukeEmily ( talk) 18:18, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
References
I feel this page should be called sonar. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
As suggested by LukeEmily above, I would like to formally propose the renaming of the article as Sonar (caste), keeping all alternate names within brackets in the lede as usual. Thanks. Ekdalian ( talk) 07:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
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122.171.238.55 ( talk) 11:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
they are vegetarians eating rice is a main source.