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Again it is highly probably that I will be blocked, for inserting information that while true is not flattering to the Cuban government. Just received the following:
Apparently[[User:Neobros|Neobros] is not aware that even senior Stalinist Agent in Cuba Fabio Grobart said it was necessary to support Machado because if Machado fell conservative forces (he used less flattering terms).
citation for insertion
Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8. Collaboration with dictators, who have few sincere allies offers advantages for infiltration of covert communists. CIA 1960 Communist influence in the Cuban government. “The objective of the Partido Socialista Popular (PSP-Cuban communist part…Its tactics, therefore are to conceal the membership, recruitment or reaffiliation of Party members who now occupy key positions in the government.” Following a Chinese model ”These secret Communist Party members are in close contact with known Communist Party members such as Blas Roca, Joaquin Ordoqui, Servero Aguirre, and Carlos Rafael Rodriguez, who establish public Communist Party policy and are in turn, in contact with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) and the international Communist apparatus.
end of this citation
It is common to attribute the fall of Machado to left wing forces this is simple not so, the ABC did far more to defeat Machado than any left wing group. Guiteras did a tiny action at La Gallinita (the place of the little chicken). Most of the action in Havana was done by the ABC which despite its reputation as being racist included a good number of black members. In the countryside Blas Hernandez was far more effective than Guiteras. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
21:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Since I am sure that Neobros will again delete the important material that I inserted and will place it here for safe keeping please read it, And make up your own minds. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
22:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that Soviet intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of Fabio Grobart. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of Great Depression, the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC
ref inserted: Dutcher, Rodney (NEA) 1933 Machado Fights Terrorists With Terror To Hold Iron-Handed Foes: of "ABC” Copy Gangster Methods to Rid Island of Despot Who Has Ruled Since-1924 Syracuse Herald Friday evening, April 28, 1933. Front Page “Terrorism has been met "with terrorism in this unique outbreak waged mostly by students and young Intellectuals who brand Machado as a tyrant. On one side is the "ABC," secret terrorist, organization that has copied the methods ol gangsters in the fine art of assassination. On the other side are Machado's strong-armed and equally, ruthless secret police. Murder has followed murder in a series of spectacular killings. The Law of Flight Typical were assinations of Dr. Clemente Vasquez Bella, president ol the Cuban Senate and political ally of Machedo, and Capt. Miguel Calvo former head of the secret police Both were slain on busy throughfares, in daylight, by men who dashed past in autos firing shot guns. Many members, or suspected members of the "ABC" have been slain by the secret police in equally ruthless manner. Often, those killings have been defended on the ground that the victims preferred death to capture, though the evidence. In many cases Is not convincing. One police official alone is accused of 40 official assassinations. Police have also defended killings on the ground that the ley de fuga (law of flight) recognized the right of an officer to shoot an escaping prisoner. But, according to witnesses, prisoners have been released told to flee and then shot down they ran. Bombing has been common. Incendiary fires have destroyed much property. Great numbers oi political prisoners have been jailed. President Machado. whose life has been threatened many times, is heavily guarded by soldiers and machine gun crews in his palace. He rides to and from his country estate in a bullet-proof auto, under escort of soldiers armed with rifles and machine guns. NEXT: Cuba economic distress and America's vast stake on the IslanNext story is Van Paassen Sees Foreign War as Hitler Final Gamble Holds Nazi Course of Terrorism Is Camouflage for Lack of Policy Job Finding Failure Unemployment and Misery Grow With Every Day of Delay By PIERRE VAN PAASSEN Roving European Correspondent of The Herald Paris, April 23 end of reference insertion
Then during a general strike in which the communist party took the side of Machado, the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, however, a second coup led by sergeants, most notably Fulgencio Batista, overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first Ramón Grau San Martín government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the Platt amendment.
Wow Neobros reverted in less than five minutes Ay vey! how some cling to their faith El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Goodbye all. Apparently it is a crime to report on the very existence of the ABC and the fact that the communists joined with Machado in an attempt to block the strike that overthrew that Dictator. Notice I inserted a verifiable reference and that was ignored. Well I suppose I will be now blocked for ever. Neobros is already working on that....El Jigue
208.65.188.149
22:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros:
I am writing on this topic. Just view the citations (some from Castro government sources) on the cooperation of the communists with Machado. El Jigue
Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8.
Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that
Soviet intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of
Fabio Grobart. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of
Great Depression, the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed
Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, 4th-5th 1933) however, a second coup (led by sergeants, most notably
Fulgencio Batista, overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first
Ramón Grau San Martín government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the
Platt amendment.
Then came the bloody events of the Hotel Nacional September 8- and November 8-9 1933 which culminated in the defense by and death of Blas Hernandez at the ancient castle of Atares in Havana, in which Batista loyal soldiers and radicals killed off much of their opposition [1] El Jigue 208.65.188.149 12:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros: Went back and checked my insertion did not appear to damage the article, and it was carefully referenced. Please explain. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 14:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I see that now tell me what to do with those "tag closing," the formating for these footnotes is so arcane I cannot tell what you mean. As to the secret nature of the ABC was essential to its survival in during the Machado era, and that term was used in newspaper accounts, would the word "covert" be more suitable.
As to the newspaper accounts they can be recovered from newspaperarchives.com would you be satisfied with the URL from there. However, this is a fee based source and that may cause difficulties....
The puzzling thing about the reputation of the ABC is that it is often labeled "fascist," and yet in included a good number of personages of "Black" or Sub-saharan African heritage. For instance Riera Hernández, Mario 1965 Historial Obrero Cubano 1574-1965 Rema Press Miami Florida http://www.cubarepublicana.org/dobook.php?folder=historialobrerocubano p. 100 Los adversarios del exclusivista ABC endilgan a este groupo el sambenito de anti-negro y mussolinesco. Señalaron los rojos en un volante del Comité Central del Partido Comunista, entonces orientado por Martín Castellanos, la siguiente acusación: “A titulo de señuelos el fascista ABC hace figurar en sus cuadros reaccionarios a los negros Armado León Ibáñez (Cabo Soto); María Ignacio Mareu, Pastor González y Matías Cañizares, en fallido apaciguamiento de una masa negra y democrática que combate a ese aparato del imperialismo yankista de Cuba”.
and of course Batista, although he had considerable neo-Taino inheritance too, see for instance Argote-Freyre (p.40 and others) which discusses his covert activities with the ABC. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros that was most kind and generous of you. Inserted section, it looks at least on first reading to be Ok. The 1930s in Cuba probably still need some details, such as the Hotel Nacional, the Atares actions, and the shooting of the ABC demonstration in 1934. I also would like to enter a brief note about the Cuban Navy sinking of a Nazi submarine during WWII. What holds me back is the matter of space. Perhaps there may be some reference to the Hotel Nacional somewhere around, perhaps in the Batista article....will check. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. However, El_C is quite familiar with my record. One visit to his Wikipedia home page suggests,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:El_C
but does not prove, that our conflict is ideological. A person I knew, a non communist 7-26 rebel in the War Against Batista, was falsely accused and executed by the Che Guevara. This one matter about which my book in progress is about, this is one of the reasons that I contribute here; but another stronger reason is my search for truth as "corny" as that sounds. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 20:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
My book is written in an attempt to be as objective as possible, if that is a conflict with Wikipedia guidelines, please advise. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not follow your argument, so far as I see your personal page promotes your partisan views on the Cuba circumstance, and that does not appear to disqualify you. And yet in your view, my book in progress on Cuba, which naturally you cannot have read since you do not know who I am, does disqualify me. If you would be so kind please clarify this intriguing matter in detail. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
El_C one may consider that it is less than wise to presume the content of unpublished book, when one neither knows the name of the author nor the nature of the book, much less to presume that my insertions in Wikipedia are taken from my book. While Wikipedia guidelines encourage the presumption of good faith. Some who do not subscribe to that guideline might interpret the content of your page as promoting a particular POV. Surely this is not correct. Although several other interpretations of the content of your page could be to taken suggest you are "false flagging" to collect a list contributors who subscribe to some ideological bent, or that you are simply trolling. Please assure me that none of these possibilities are true. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an important part of Cuban history missing in the history section. Cuba was actively involved in Africa for 25 years. Cuban Intervention in Guinea-Bisau and Angola was instrumental in ending imperialism in Africa and in the independance of Namibia. At the hight of their involvement there were 450.000 Cuban troops involved in a war against FNLA (supported by the USA and UNITA (supported by South Africa); very unique and no small feat for a little country halfway around the world. Cuba keeps the numbers of its fallen soldiers secret. Estimates go up to 10.000. This certainly left its mark on Cuban society. Sundar1 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sundar You are correct that is important. There are a number of descriptions on the web that talk about the actions for instance a Ciuta Canavale. However, they tend to be inaccurate. Are you sure about that 450,000 number? El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sundar Started a section on these matters. PS Cuba is not a little country see Churchill's statement at the beginning of the page. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 14:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The section on the Maine while quite well researched from the Spanish point of view is not that commonly accepted. Thus I took the liberty of changing it slightly to reflect this circumstance. Please add and change as appropriate El Jigue 208.65.188.149 16:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a new book out on the Cuban exodus:
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I actually deleted the first paragraph of this outright. Hate to take umbrage in such a way, but this section needs a rethink from a far, far, far less biased point of view. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.151.72.224 (
talk)
20:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Apparently some are remise to recognize Cuban government intervention place such as South Yemen. For this reason I have reinserted Yemen into article and added the following citations:
Ramazani, Rouhollah K. 1975 The Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz. Vol. 3 Sijthoff & Noordhoof, Holland ISBN 9028600698 Mentions Cuban intervention in several different sections e.g. p. 75 “Just as the Soviet Union has sought the destruction of the Omani regime by proxy of South Yemini and Cuban support for the insurgents, the United States…” p. 115 “The Soviet Union indirectly intervened in the civil war in Oman by aiding the Dhofari rebels through Cuban and South Yemen.” Fontaine, Roger 1988 http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/bg655.cfm?renderforprint=1 “Third, the U.S. should consider ending its low-level diplomatic ties with Cuba THE EARLY YEARS OF CUBAN TERRORISM Cuban history is replete with examp les of terrorism, most notably in the early 1930s when groups of young Cubans struggled against General Gerardo Machado, who ran Cuba with an iron hand for nearly a decade beginning in 1925. Calling themselves the*ABC it is unclear what the initials stood for (This stood for the level of its cell structure A being the highest level B, the next etc El Jigue)), these young Cubans invented many of the techniques of modern urban terrorism (coordinated bombing, for example which Cuban advisers have passed on in scores of training camps around the world to thousands of Argentinians Brazilians, Chileans, Colombians, Ecuadorans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, and Uruguayans, to name a few in Latin America, and to Basques, Namibians, Palestinians West Germans, and Yemenis. ” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
In addition, changed the title of minisection to Africa and adjacent Asia Minor. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Where did Cuba's name come from? It couldn't have come from the mouth of Christopher Columbus, who had named it "Juana". was it named for a person? after a native word? after a bunch of natives? — Rickyrab | Talk 23:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Before I start, let's just get a couple things out of the way:
1. Yes, I'm well aware that there aren't that many left.
2. Yes, I'm well aware that many people believe that the Communist system in general is flawed.
3. And, more unimportantly, no, I'm not Cuban, nor related to anyone from Cuba.
However, I'm having problems with this statement. Let me quote it one more time:
"It is one of few remaining Communist countries in the world."
Alright, I'll start with the small matters: First of all, " it" has a name...it would be better to just refer to it as "Cuba". Second of all, there are more than a "few" Communist countries in the world, and also rather a lot of Socialist countries, but I really think that should fall into the same category. Third, basically saying "Cuba's ALMOST the only remaining Communist country in the world" sounds rather like U.S. propoganda from the '60s, as if reffering to Communist countries as in "They'll all crumble...any day now...". Basically, I find that this statement could have cleverly hidden weasel words and could be incinuating Anti-Communist POV, as if written by a staunch Republican. I actually think it would be better to say:
"Cuba is in a minority of countries in the world which are still one-party, Communist republics."
Well? It makes more sense, it could contain no possible bias (on either side), and it tells the truth. Far better for this article than the previous statement. 172.189.200.211 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
An interesting article came out today in Sun-Sentinal showing how difficult it is to get information out of Cuba http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-flbpress1016nboct16,0,1631791.story
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 01:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW who is that person who keeps erasing complete sections
Again we have the less than enlightened view that Cuba is a small island, a matter of some concern since this phrase is repeated ad nauseum. Saying that Cuba is a small island does not make it so, for Cuba is 766 miles long, and Churchill having fought there at Iguara in 1896 knew this well. Thus I have reinserted: Winston Churchill considered Cuba to be a "...large, rich, beautiful island..." Churchill, Winston S. 1951 The Second World War, Volume 5: Closing the Ring. Houghton Miffin Edition. Bantam Books, New York No ISBN or other number provided. P. 606 “Prime Minister to Foreign Secretary 5. Feb (19)44. Your minute about raising certain legations to the status of embassy. I must say that Cuba has as good a claim as some other places –“la perla de Las Antillas.” Great offense will be given if all the others have it and this large, rich, beautiful island, the home of the cigar, is denied. Surely Cuba has much more claim than Venezuela. You will make a bitter enemy if you leave them out, and after a bit you will be forced to give them what you have given to the others.” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
One notes the dissenting opinion of contributor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/207.151.245.218 however, this seems to be the only contribution from that source. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I know that the first sentence of the section about the spanish view on the Maine incident is grammatically incorrect. Problem is, I'm not skilled enough with grammar to fix it. Can someone please fix it? Luigi "Kurai" III 15:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Michael the main analysis presented here is extreme and apparently derived the Spanish Government's point of view and is not counterbalanced by the findings of numerous other investigations. See Samuels, Peggy and Harold. Remembering the Maine. (Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1995) a more balanced text, for details. Thus although I have left the present text as is and unchanged, I have labeled it "an alternative view" El Jigue 208.65.188.149 00:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the below because the source appears to be a random web site. Published professional historians would be much more appropriate. If there are "fringe" theories about the attack, their notability needs to be established and they need to be put in context. The removed text also has POV problems. -- Beland 19:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Even McMorrow [2], who concludes that it was most probable but not proven, that Cuban rebels caused the explosion, is forced to speculate on unknown plots and mechanisms. neutrality is disputed For instance McMorrow’s hypothesis relies on complete rationality of the Spanish Weylerites: neutrality is disputed
and suicidal actions on the part of the Cuban rebels:
Neither complete rationality of the Weylerites nor suicidal actions by Cuban rebels have basis in historical fact. neutrality is disputed
Beltran
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
* English landing at Guantanamo (Cumberland)by Admiral Edward Vernon 1741 * English Conquest of Havana 1762-1763 [2][12] * Annexionist actions Narciso Lopez1850, 1851 * Ten Years War 1868-1878 * Guerra Chiquita 1880 Antonio Maceo Calixto Garcia * War of Independence 1895-1898
Added list El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
A blank statement e.g. section too long, needs editing, etc. without explanation serves no useful purpose. Such a notice should be followed by some description of the perceived flaw. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
It is necessary for balance to compare economic conditions before and after Castro, instead of lambasting past conditions and then white washing Cuban conditions for the last almost fifty years. Thus, in the Carlos Prío Socarrás section of this page, I have inserted:
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Militant "Frank Pais" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Frank_Pais (who is apparently unaware that the real Frank Pais was anti-communist and betrayed to Batista by Vilma Espin, self-describes as:
Is now deleting material underfalse pretenses, his last deletion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cuba&diff=168376700&oldid=168353402) claims lack of source. on examination this claim proved false. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur
the note reads:
It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to:
"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06"
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 81 has nothing to do with the assertion it is supposed to prove! Someone recommend a fix!
TuckerResearch 07:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This citation (see below), which is by the same author as previous cite, and presents balanced, factual and data was removed. In other words the citation that describes good urban conditions but poor rural conditions during the Prio administration, is left unqualified by necessary comparison to bad urban and rural conditions in present day Cuba.
It is POV to select citations to attempt prove a point El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur
the note reads:
It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to:
"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06"
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Cuban government partisans on attack again, deleting data on present conditions, falsely alleging that it is a personal attack on a living person. Ignoring the fact that the present Cuban goverment has been in power for almost fifty years, and thus must bear responsability for present conditions in Cuba. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 30 links to a Fox News report. Given the ideological slant of this channel, can this be in any way considered a reliable source? 82.69.28.55 09:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes! Fox is no more ideological than CNN or the BBC or the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. There is no such thing as "objective."
TuckerResearch 20:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Several wiki-personas are desperately attempting by every means, and spurious excuse to delete material that is unfavorable to the Cuban government (see immediately above "Video on Cuba's hospitals"). Matters slated for such a whitewash, include:
These wiki-personas suddenly appear with a very short Wikipedia record, or a very short record on Cuban matters. This could be taken to suggest that they are either ad hock personas conjured up for this very purpose, or persons new to this Cuba page.
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 02:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Michael W. You allege, based upon some secret rule (see Animal House's Dean Wormer, double secret codicles) that "contemporary comparisons do not belong in historical narrative." This would be an action similar, to the teaching of history in second Batista (1950s) dictatorship, when narrations of then relatively recent histories (1930s) were omitted from school curriculums, since they would place Batista in an unfavorable light. Thus, while your point of view is interesting it is invalid, since even were some such secret Wikipedia rule to exist it would not apply since Fidel Castro has passed from power, if not quite yet from life... and he has moved to what you like to call "historical narrative." El Jigue (now alleged to be some kind of multiple diety) 208.65.188.149 15:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Michael I will move section to later period.... Oh by the way I read your discussion section...
it does seem somewhat less than impartial on Cuban matters... El Jigue 208.65.188.149 18:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Michael, for making my points even more manifest. One would presume that since you work in Cuba you are an employee of the Cuban Government and thus not eligible to contribute to this page. El Jigue(bleak caricaturist of the Cuban reality) 208.65.188.149 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent photographs of a dead Castro are in circulation, they are either extremely high quality montages or the real thing. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 23:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Apparently they are excellent fakes done some time ago see http://lacrudarealidad.blogsome.com/2006/12/28/fidel-castro-ha-muerto/ El Jigue 208.65.188.149 00:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
UH!!!!!!!!! I already said they were faked what gives. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
01:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Por favor, El Jigue, pueda acabar con esta actitud que traigas aqui. Somos un enciclopedia y esto quire decir que todos los editores aqui necesitan traer una actitud de neutralidad a este articulo, o sea que no debemos pensar que Castro es correcto o incorrecto, que es heroe o que es dictador. Hay muchos foros donde uno pueda discutir Castro y su influencia sobre Cuba pero wikipedia no es un foro. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SB: Looks like there is another attempt to ban me, and continue to whitewash the record of the present government. Neutrality does not mean being neutered. Let me repeat the record shows that Castro is an autocrat. It would be far wiser if more time were spent on adding pertinent material to the page rather than trying to whitewash the record of the present Cuban government El Jigue
208.65.188.149
16:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 16:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
SQ Thank you since your response merely reinforces my argument. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
18:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
SQ This is merely an example, of a very large number of incidents, and here one can clearly see that Castro is a dictator since only dictators try to inhibit by coercion, rather than manipulate, the press overseas in this way.... Darn it they have been beating up people in Geneva for some time. Don't you remember the Calzon incident, El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It is my opinion that factual data is not obtained by trying to achieve a balance of pro- and anti-Castro view points, but by attempting to evaluate each factual event on its own and in context. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 16:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Several references in the history section including multiple paragraphs of the source material. I've removed them, since this is really not the appropriate place, and suggest that if people feel it's important to have access to these particular paragraphs that they be moved to Wikisource. Natalie ( talk) 15:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It is very destructive, almost akin to vandalism,to engage in massive deletions with the only briefest explanation. These changes ignored years of discussion and left the article with a decided pro-Castro bent. It might be wise for Ms Erin to be more prudent until she learns more about Cuban history. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 19:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been almost 50 years of censorship in Cuba, this has wide ranging effects on the perception of Cuban matters. Outside of Cuba some academic activists have been attacking and in some cases were able to deny tenure to other academics who have non-Castro view points. Communist party activists world wide have been promoting a spurious view of Cuban data. Cuban archives are only available to those viewed with favor by Cuban government, thus one has to be cautious about data generated in this fashion. El Jigue20:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
If one doubts this, ask a simple current question:
What year was recently deceased. former chief of Cuban armed forces staff and interior minister, Sergio del Valle Jimenez born?
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 20:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD So you want to remove the reality of Cuban censorship, and verification of that reality. Would it be malicious of me to suggest that this request of yours merely supports this point. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 20:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD the reliability of this source is a matter of opinion, since, the material is taken almost verbatim from an official Cuban Government source the periodical Granma. Apparently even the Granma staff does not know the birthdate of an important Cuba official. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For AP report taken from the same source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/obit_del_valle_1
GD Make a Sergio del Valle Jimenez page and then we can talk about it. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD guess what a page on him showed up within the last few days. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD Subsequent is the most commonly accepted spelling. Bloggins one can presume is somebody from the Shire in Middle Earth. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 00:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that Natalie Erin a real newbie on the Cuba page is planning a purge of "anti-Castroites" El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 04:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Take this example from her talk page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Natalie_Erin
Hi, Natalie. Here is bibliotecario galio from the Spanish Wikipedia. The user you are talking about used to be active on es:, as seen on his contributions log while being 205.240.227.15, but seems to have disappeared since I blocked him on May 7. He hasn't signed as El Jigüe nor edited with his current IP, 208.65.188.149. Fortunately, that's all what I have to say. There are, however, some rabious anti-Castro users, but only a checkuser can provide some evidence. Regards, 24.232.175.140 ( talk) 02:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 04:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
You decide. Ellomate ( talk) 00:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
There's no difference. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Socialist, Communist would mean no free enterprise at all.
CaptinJohn ( talk) 15:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The so-called difference between the two terms dates to Lenin, not Marx and Engels. For instance, here is what Engels writes about the Communist Manifesto: "Thus the history of the Manifesto reflects the history of the modern working-class movement; at present, it is doubtless the most wide spread, the most international production of all socialist literature, the common platform acknowledged by millions of working men from Siberia to California." If the two terms were not used synonymously as I contend, he would've described the Manifesto as the most "international production of all communist literature" and not "the most international production of all socialist literature." I can pluck out countless other examples in Marx and Engels works where communism and socialism are also treated synonymously... Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have just read the Class privilege section below:
While the form of government of Cuba is theoretically opposed to class privilege, preferential treatment exists for those who are members of the Communist Party or who hold positions of power within the government. Housing is in short supply in Cuba and most Cubans live in circumstances that can only be described as poor. Access to better housing is reserved for those favored by the Cuban government. Access to transportation, work, housing, university education and better health care are a function of status within the government or the Communist Party. [6]
[7] For instance, in order to enter university, students are required to pass an entry examination to show they possess the basic knowledge required. In order to take this examination students need a letter from the Committee for the Defense (CDR) CDR of the Revolution vouching for their "political and moral background". It is reported that often people are unable to take the examinations because their letter from the CDR was unfavorable. In one case a student was not allowed to take the examination as the letter stated that he "had friendly relations with elements who wished to leave the country". Human Rights and Education
The first refernece (6) seems to be some sort of online discussion about Fidel Castros personal villa. The second reference (7) is about labour rights. The third (which is stuck in as a link at the end of the section is someones blog. Since only one of the references actually mentions university admission, and that is a blog about somes friend I think the whole section should be removed but before I do that I wanted to give fair notice. If anyone disagrees then please say!
John
CaptinJohn ( talk) 14:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
There are other sources that can be cited on that matter, I will add them shortly. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I love the <sarcasm>! I am thinking that this section might be better off rewritten to say that althought there is no cash cost of attending there are restrictions on people of "questionable loyalty" to the revolution (or who are related to them). If we can get sources we could say that this often, sometimes or seldom prevents someone from attending. Also Id put it under education rather than where it is and call it something like "Educational Access Restrictions" as this is not so much about class as it is about compromising on admissions priciples.
What do people think?
CaptinJohn 16:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. Hope this is ok with everyone
CaptinJohn ( talk) 13:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems necessary to point out that discrimination regarding university entrance is the norm rather than something that only happens on occasion. In general, only those deemed to be supportive of the system - either by being party members or by being vouched for by a CDR are allowed into the University system. Happened to me, happened to at least six or seven other childhood friends. This isn't anything new and I'm wondering what all the hub-bub is about concerning the paragraph. Were folks under the impression that this was not so? Seems like pretty common knowledge although I suppose maybe I am not as familiar with the opinions or assumptions made by those without experience on the island. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.224.35 ( talk) 19:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Again it is highly probably that I will be blocked, for inserting information that while true is not flattering to the Cuban government. Just received the following:
Apparently[[User:Neobros|Neobros] is not aware that even senior Stalinist Agent in Cuba Fabio Grobart said it was necessary to support Machado because if Machado fell conservative forces (he used less flattering terms).
citation for insertion
Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8. Collaboration with dictators, who have few sincere allies offers advantages for infiltration of covert communists. CIA 1960 Communist influence in the Cuban government. “The objective of the Partido Socialista Popular (PSP-Cuban communist part…Its tactics, therefore are to conceal the membership, recruitment or reaffiliation of Party members who now occupy key positions in the government.” Following a Chinese model ”These secret Communist Party members are in close contact with known Communist Party members such as Blas Roca, Joaquin Ordoqui, Servero Aguirre, and Carlos Rafael Rodriguez, who establish public Communist Party policy and are in turn, in contact with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU) and the international Communist apparatus.
end of this citation
It is common to attribute the fall of Machado to left wing forces this is simple not so, the ABC did far more to defeat Machado than any left wing group. Guiteras did a tiny action at La Gallinita (the place of the little chicken). Most of the action in Havana was done by the ABC which despite its reputation as being racist included a good number of black members. In the countryside Blas Hernandez was far more effective than Guiteras. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
21:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Since I am sure that Neobros will again delete the important material that I inserted and will place it here for safe keeping please read it, And make up your own minds. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
22:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that Soviet intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of Fabio Grobart. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of Great Depression, the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC
ref inserted: Dutcher, Rodney (NEA) 1933 Machado Fights Terrorists With Terror To Hold Iron-Handed Foes: of "ABC” Copy Gangster Methods to Rid Island of Despot Who Has Ruled Since-1924 Syracuse Herald Friday evening, April 28, 1933. Front Page “Terrorism has been met "with terrorism in this unique outbreak waged mostly by students and young Intellectuals who brand Machado as a tyrant. On one side is the "ABC," secret terrorist, organization that has copied the methods ol gangsters in the fine art of assassination. On the other side are Machado's strong-armed and equally, ruthless secret police. Murder has followed murder in a series of spectacular killings. The Law of Flight Typical were assinations of Dr. Clemente Vasquez Bella, president ol the Cuban Senate and political ally of Machedo, and Capt. Miguel Calvo former head of the secret police Both were slain on busy throughfares, in daylight, by men who dashed past in autos firing shot guns. Many members, or suspected members of the "ABC" have been slain by the secret police in equally ruthless manner. Often, those killings have been defended on the ground that the victims preferred death to capture, though the evidence. In many cases Is not convincing. One police official alone is accused of 40 official assassinations. Police have also defended killings on the ground that the ley de fuga (law of flight) recognized the right of an officer to shoot an escaping prisoner. But, according to witnesses, prisoners have been released told to flee and then shot down they ran. Bombing has been common. Incendiary fires have destroyed much property. Great numbers oi political prisoners have been jailed. President Machado. whose life has been threatened many times, is heavily guarded by soldiers and machine gun crews in his palace. He rides to and from his country estate in a bullet-proof auto, under escort of soldiers armed with rifles and machine guns. NEXT: Cuba economic distress and America's vast stake on the IslanNext story is Van Paassen Sees Foreign War as Hitler Final Gamble Holds Nazi Course of Terrorism Is Camouflage for Lack of Policy Job Finding Failure Unemployment and Misery Grow With Every Day of Delay By PIERRE VAN PAASSEN Roving European Correspondent of The Herald Paris, April 23 end of reference insertion
Then during a general strike in which the communist party took the side of Machado, the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, however, a second coup led by sergeants, most notably Fulgencio Batista, overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first Ramón Grau San Martín government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the Platt amendment.
Wow Neobros reverted in less than five minutes Ay vey! how some cling to their faith El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Goodbye all. Apparently it is a crime to report on the very existence of the ABC and the fact that the communists joined with Machado in an attempt to block the strike that overthrew that Dictator. Notice I inserted a verifiable reference and that was ignored. Well I suppose I will be now blocked for ever. Neobros is already working on that....El Jigue
208.65.188.149
22:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros:
I am writing on this topic. Just view the citations (some from Castro government sources) on the cooperation of the communists with Machado. El Jigue
Massón Sena, Caridad 2004 (accessed 6-9-07) Dos visiones sobre el nacionalismo y las alianzas: Mella y Villena. Centro de Investigación y Desarrollo de la Cultura Cubana “Juan Marinello”. La Habana, Cuba. http://168.96.200.17/ar/libros/cuba/marin/nacion.rtf. “ Según explicara Fabio Grobart a posteriori: “ Esta miopía política se reflejó también en una errónea conclusión que los dirigentes del Partido sacaron, de la justa apreciación de que sustituir a Machado por un gobierno de la oposición burgués-terrateniente significaba dejar a Cuba en su estado de semicolonia y a las masas populares en la misma miseria y esclavitud y que únicamente un gobierno de trabajadores podía producir los cambios radicales que el país necesitaba /.../Dicha a conclusión fue profundamente falsa por ser mecánica, por no basarse en un análisis correcto del desarrollo dialéctico de la situación y, esencialmente, por no tener en cuenta que las masas revolucionarias, enardecidas por la victoria sobre Machado y orientadas en su acción por una justa política de su vanguardia marxista-leninista, sí podría asegurar los cambios profundos, es decir, la realización del programa agrario-antimperialista, por el cual abogaba y luchaba desde su fundación el Partido Comunista.(22)” Reference 22 is Fabio Grobart, 1985, p. 93, This author also refers in this regard to Leonel Soto, 1977, vol. II, p. 8.
Machado was a Cuban nationalist and his regime had considerable local support despite its violent suppression of critics. However, it was during this period that
Soviet intrusion into Cuban affairs began with the arrival in Cuba of
Fabio Grobart. During Machado's tenure, Cubans gained greater control over their own economy and major national development projects were undertaken. His hold on power was weakened, by the lower demand for sugar because of
Great Depression, the attacks first by War of Independence Veterans, and later on by secret organizations principally the ABC Cite error: A <ref>
tag is missing the closing </ref>
(see the
help page). the Senior elements of the Cuban army forced Machado into exile and installed
Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, son of Cuba's founding father, as President. In September, 4th-5th 1933) however, a second coup (led by sergeants, most notably
Fulgencio Batista, overthrew Céspedes leading to the formation of the first
Ramón Grau San Martín government. This government lasted just 100 days, but engineered radical liberal changes in Cuban society and a rejection of the
Platt amendment.
Then came the bloody events of the Hotel Nacional September 8- and November 8-9 1933 which culminated in the defense by and death of Blas Hernandez at the ancient castle of Atares in Havana, in which Batista loyal soldiers and radicals killed off much of their opposition [1] El Jigue 208.65.188.149 12:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros: Went back and checked my insertion did not appear to damage the article, and it was carefully referenced. Please explain. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 14:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I see that now tell me what to do with those "tag closing," the formating for these footnotes is so arcane I cannot tell what you mean. As to the secret nature of the ABC was essential to its survival in during the Machado era, and that term was used in newspaper accounts, would the word "covert" be more suitable.
As to the newspaper accounts they can be recovered from newspaperarchives.com would you be satisfied with the URL from there. However, this is a fee based source and that may cause difficulties....
The puzzling thing about the reputation of the ABC is that it is often labeled "fascist," and yet in included a good number of personages of "Black" or Sub-saharan African heritage. For instance Riera Hernández, Mario 1965 Historial Obrero Cubano 1574-1965 Rema Press Miami Florida http://www.cubarepublicana.org/dobook.php?folder=historialobrerocubano p. 100 Los adversarios del exclusivista ABC endilgan a este groupo el sambenito de anti-negro y mussolinesco. Señalaron los rojos en un volante del Comité Central del Partido Comunista, entonces orientado por Martín Castellanos, la siguiente acusación: “A titulo de señuelos el fascista ABC hace figurar en sus cuadros reaccionarios a los negros Armado León Ibáñez (Cabo Soto); María Ignacio Mareu, Pastor González y Matías Cañizares, en fallido apaciguamiento de una masa negra y democrática que combate a ese aparato del imperialismo yankista de Cuba”.
and of course Batista, although he had considerable neo-Taino inheritance too, see for instance Argote-Freyre (p.40 and others) which discusses his covert activities with the ABC. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Neobros that was most kind and generous of you. Inserted section, it looks at least on first reading to be Ok. The 1930s in Cuba probably still need some details, such as the Hotel Nacional, the Atares actions, and the shooting of the ABC demonstration in 1934. I also would like to enter a brief note about the Cuban Navy sinking of a Nazi submarine during WWII. What holds me back is the matter of space. Perhaps there may be some reference to the Hotel Nacional somewhere around, perhaps in the Batista article....will check. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. However, El_C is quite familiar with my record. One visit to his Wikipedia home page suggests,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:El_C
but does not prove, that our conflict is ideological. A person I knew, a non communist 7-26 rebel in the War Against Batista, was falsely accused and executed by the Che Guevara. This one matter about which my book in progress is about, this is one of the reasons that I contribute here; but another stronger reason is my search for truth as "corny" as that sounds. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 20:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
My book is written in an attempt to be as objective as possible, if that is a conflict with Wikipedia guidelines, please advise. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not follow your argument, so far as I see your personal page promotes your partisan views on the Cuba circumstance, and that does not appear to disqualify you. And yet in your view, my book in progress on Cuba, which naturally you cannot have read since you do not know who I am, does disqualify me. If you would be so kind please clarify this intriguing matter in detail. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
El_C one may consider that it is less than wise to presume the content of unpublished book, when one neither knows the name of the author nor the nature of the book, much less to presume that my insertions in Wikipedia are taken from my book. While Wikipedia guidelines encourage the presumption of good faith. Some who do not subscribe to that guideline might interpret the content of your page as promoting a particular POV. Surely this is not correct. Although several other interpretations of the content of your page could be to taken suggest you are "false flagging" to collect a list contributors who subscribe to some ideological bent, or that you are simply trolling. Please assure me that none of these possibilities are true. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an important part of Cuban history missing in the history section. Cuba was actively involved in Africa for 25 years. Cuban Intervention in Guinea-Bisau and Angola was instrumental in ending imperialism in Africa and in the independance of Namibia. At the hight of their involvement there were 450.000 Cuban troops involved in a war against FNLA (supported by the USA and UNITA (supported by South Africa); very unique and no small feat for a little country halfway around the world. Cuba keeps the numbers of its fallen soldiers secret. Estimates go up to 10.000. This certainly left its mark on Cuban society. Sundar1 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sundar You are correct that is important. There are a number of descriptions on the web that talk about the actions for instance a Ciuta Canavale. However, they tend to be inaccurate. Are you sure about that 450,000 number? El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sundar Started a section on these matters. PS Cuba is not a little country see Churchill's statement at the beginning of the page. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 14:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The section on the Maine while quite well researched from the Spanish point of view is not that commonly accepted. Thus I took the liberty of changing it slightly to reflect this circumstance. Please add and change as appropriate El Jigue 208.65.188.149 16:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
There is a new book out on the Cuban exodus:
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I actually deleted the first paragraph of this outright. Hate to take umbrage in such a way, but this section needs a rethink from a far, far, far less biased point of view. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
81.151.72.224 (
talk)
20:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Apparently some are remise to recognize Cuban government intervention place such as South Yemen. For this reason I have reinserted Yemen into article and added the following citations:
Ramazani, Rouhollah K. 1975 The Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz. Vol. 3 Sijthoff & Noordhoof, Holland ISBN 9028600698 Mentions Cuban intervention in several different sections e.g. p. 75 “Just as the Soviet Union has sought the destruction of the Omani regime by proxy of South Yemini and Cuban support for the insurgents, the United States…” p. 115 “The Soviet Union indirectly intervened in the civil war in Oman by aiding the Dhofari rebels through Cuban and South Yemen.” Fontaine, Roger 1988 http://www.heritage.org/Research/LatinAmerica/bg655.cfm?renderforprint=1 “Third, the U.S. should consider ending its low-level diplomatic ties with Cuba THE EARLY YEARS OF CUBAN TERRORISM Cuban history is replete with examp les of terrorism, most notably in the early 1930s when groups of young Cubans struggled against General Gerardo Machado, who ran Cuba with an iron hand for nearly a decade beginning in 1925. Calling themselves the*ABC it is unclear what the initials stood for (This stood for the level of its cell structure A being the highest level B, the next etc El Jigue)), these young Cubans invented many of the techniques of modern urban terrorism (coordinated bombing, for example which Cuban advisers have passed on in scores of training camps around the world to thousands of Argentinians Brazilians, Chileans, Colombians, Ecuadorans, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Salvadorans, and Uruguayans, to name a few in Latin America, and to Basques, Namibians, Palestinians West Germans, and Yemenis. ” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
In addition, changed the title of minisection to Africa and adjacent Asia Minor. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Where did Cuba's name come from? It couldn't have come from the mouth of Christopher Columbus, who had named it "Juana". was it named for a person? after a native word? after a bunch of natives? — Rickyrab | Talk 23:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Before I start, let's just get a couple things out of the way:
1. Yes, I'm well aware that there aren't that many left.
2. Yes, I'm well aware that many people believe that the Communist system in general is flawed.
3. And, more unimportantly, no, I'm not Cuban, nor related to anyone from Cuba.
However, I'm having problems with this statement. Let me quote it one more time:
"It is one of few remaining Communist countries in the world."
Alright, I'll start with the small matters: First of all, " it" has a name...it would be better to just refer to it as "Cuba". Second of all, there are more than a "few" Communist countries in the world, and also rather a lot of Socialist countries, but I really think that should fall into the same category. Third, basically saying "Cuba's ALMOST the only remaining Communist country in the world" sounds rather like U.S. propoganda from the '60s, as if reffering to Communist countries as in "They'll all crumble...any day now...". Basically, I find that this statement could have cleverly hidden weasel words and could be incinuating Anti-Communist POV, as if written by a staunch Republican. I actually think it would be better to say:
"Cuba is in a minority of countries in the world which are still one-party, Communist republics."
Well? It makes more sense, it could contain no possible bias (on either side), and it tells the truth. Far better for this article than the previous statement. 172.189.200.211 23:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
An interesting article came out today in Sun-Sentinal showing how difficult it is to get information out of Cuba http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/cuba/sfl-flbpress1016nboct16,0,1631791.story
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 01:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW who is that person who keeps erasing complete sections
Again we have the less than enlightened view that Cuba is a small island, a matter of some concern since this phrase is repeated ad nauseum. Saying that Cuba is a small island does not make it so, for Cuba is 766 miles long, and Churchill having fought there at Iguara in 1896 knew this well. Thus I have reinserted: Winston Churchill considered Cuba to be a "...large, rich, beautiful island..." Churchill, Winston S. 1951 The Second World War, Volume 5: Closing the Ring. Houghton Miffin Edition. Bantam Books, New York No ISBN or other number provided. P. 606 “Prime Minister to Foreign Secretary 5. Feb (19)44. Your minute about raising certain legations to the status of embassy. I must say that Cuba has as good a claim as some other places –“la perla de Las Antillas.” Great offense will be given if all the others have it and this large, rich, beautiful island, the home of the cigar, is denied. Surely Cuba has much more claim than Venezuela. You will make a bitter enemy if you leave them out, and after a bit you will be forced to give them what you have given to the others.” El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
One notes the dissenting opinion of contributor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/207.151.245.218 however, this seems to be the only contribution from that source. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I know that the first sentence of the section about the spanish view on the Maine incident is grammatically incorrect. Problem is, I'm not skilled enough with grammar to fix it. Can someone please fix it? Luigi "Kurai" III 15:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Michael the main analysis presented here is extreme and apparently derived the Spanish Government's point of view and is not counterbalanced by the findings of numerous other investigations. See Samuels, Peggy and Harold. Remembering the Maine. (Washington, DC: Smithsonian Institution Press, 1995) a more balanced text, for details. Thus although I have left the present text as is and unchanged, I have labeled it "an alternative view" El Jigue 208.65.188.149 00:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the below because the source appears to be a random web site. Published professional historians would be much more appropriate. If there are "fringe" theories about the attack, their notability needs to be established and they need to be put in context. The removed text also has POV problems. -- Beland 19:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Even McMorrow [2], who concludes that it was most probable but not proven, that Cuban rebels caused the explosion, is forced to speculate on unknown plots and mechanisms. neutrality is disputed For instance McMorrow’s hypothesis relies on complete rationality of the Spanish Weylerites: neutrality is disputed
and suicidal actions on the part of the Cuban rebels:
Neither complete rationality of the Weylerites nor suicidal actions by Cuban rebels have basis in historical fact. neutrality is disputed
Beltran
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
* English landing at Guantanamo (Cumberland)by Admiral Edward Vernon 1741 * English Conquest of Havana 1762-1763 [2][12] * Annexionist actions Narciso Lopez1850, 1851 * Ten Years War 1868-1878 * Guerra Chiquita 1880 Antonio Maceo Calixto Garcia * War of Independence 1895-1898
Added list El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
A blank statement e.g. section too long, needs editing, etc. without explanation serves no useful purpose. Such a notice should be followed by some description of the perceived flaw. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 13:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
It is necessary for balance to compare economic conditions before and after Castro, instead of lambasting past conditions and then white washing Cuban conditions for the last almost fifty years. Thus, in the Carlos Prío Socarrás section of this page, I have inserted:
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Militant "Frank Pais" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Frank_Pais (who is apparently unaware that the real Frank Pais was anti-communist and betrayed to Batista by Vilma Espin, self-describes as:
Is now deleting material underfalse pretenses, his last deletion ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cuba&diff=168376700&oldid=168353402) claims lack of source. on examination this claim proved false. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur
the note reads:
It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to:
"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06"
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 81 has nothing to do with the assertion it is supposed to prove! Someone recommend a fix!
TuckerResearch 07:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
This citation (see below), which is by the same author as previous cite, and presents balanced, factual and data was removed. In other words the citation that describes good urban conditions but poor rural conditions during the Prio administration, is left unqualified by necessary comparison to bad urban and rural conditions in present day Cuba.
It is POV to select citations to attempt prove a point El Jigue 208.65.188.149 15:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Just receive a somewhat less than flattering note apparently from 71.101.58.229 to my talk page at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:208.65.188.149&diff=cur
the note reads:
It appears that the lady/gentleman in question is referring to:
"One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06"
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Cuban government partisans on attack again, deleting data on present conditions, falsely alleging that it is a personal attack on a living person. Ignoring the fact that the present Cuban goverment has been in power for almost fifty years, and thus must bear responsability for present conditions in Cuba. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 21:21, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 30 links to a Fox News report. Given the ideological slant of this channel, can this be in any way considered a reliable source? 82.69.28.55 09:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes! Fox is no more ideological than CNN or the BBC or the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. There is no such thing as "objective."
TuckerResearch 20:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Several wiki-personas are desperately attempting by every means, and spurious excuse to delete material that is unfavorable to the Cuban government (see immediately above "Video on Cuba's hospitals"). Matters slated for such a whitewash, include:
These wiki-personas suddenly appear with a very short Wikipedia record, or a very short record on Cuban matters. This could be taken to suggest that they are either ad hock personas conjured up for this very purpose, or persons new to this Cuba page.
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 02:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Michael W. You allege, based upon some secret rule (see Animal House's Dean Wormer, double secret codicles) that "contemporary comparisons do not belong in historical narrative." This would be an action similar, to the teaching of history in second Batista (1950s) dictatorship, when narrations of then relatively recent histories (1930s) were omitted from school curriculums, since they would place Batista in an unfavorable light. Thus, while your point of view is interesting it is invalid, since even were some such secret Wikipedia rule to exist it would not apply since Fidel Castro has passed from power, if not quite yet from life... and he has moved to what you like to call "historical narrative." El Jigue (now alleged to be some kind of multiple diety) 208.65.188.149 15:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Michael I will move section to later period.... Oh by the way I read your discussion section...
it does seem somewhat less than impartial on Cuban matters... El Jigue 208.65.188.149 18:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you Michael, for making my points even more manifest. One would presume that since you work in Cuba you are an employee of the Cuban Government and thus not eligible to contribute to this page. El Jigue(bleak caricaturist of the Cuban reality) 208.65.188.149 20:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Excellent photographs of a dead Castro are in circulation, they are either extremely high quality montages or the real thing. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 23:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Apparently they are excellent fakes done some time ago see http://lacrudarealidad.blogsome.com/2006/12/28/fidel-castro-ha-muerto/ El Jigue 208.65.188.149 00:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
UH!!!!!!!!! I already said they were faked what gives. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
01:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Por favor, El Jigue, pueda acabar con esta actitud que traigas aqui. Somos un enciclopedia y esto quire decir que todos los editores aqui necesitan traer una actitud de neutralidad a este articulo, o sea que no debemos pensar que Castro es correcto o incorrecto, que es heroe o que es dictador. Hay muchos foros donde uno pueda discutir Castro y su influencia sobre Cuba pero wikipedia no es un foro. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
SB: Looks like there is another attempt to ban me, and continue to whitewash the record of the present government. Neutrality does not mean being neutered. Let me repeat the record shows that Castro is an autocrat. It would be far wiser if more time were spent on adding pertinent material to the page rather than trying to whitewash the record of the present Cuban government El Jigue
208.65.188.149
16:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 16:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
SQ Thank you since your response merely reinforces my argument. El Jigue
208.65.188.149
18:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
SQ This is merely an example, of a very large number of incidents, and here one can clearly see that Castro is a dictator since only dictators try to inhibit by coercion, rather than manipulate, the press overseas in this way.... Darn it they have been beating up people in Geneva for some time. Don't you remember the Calzon incident, El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It is my opinion that factual data is not obtained by trying to achieve a balance of pro- and anti-Castro view points, but by attempting to evaluate each factual event on its own and in context. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 16:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Several references in the history section including multiple paragraphs of the source material. I've removed them, since this is really not the appropriate place, and suggest that if people feel it's important to have access to these particular paragraphs that they be moved to Wikisource. Natalie ( talk) 15:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It is very destructive, almost akin to vandalism,to engage in massive deletions with the only briefest explanation. These changes ignored years of discussion and left the article with a decided pro-Castro bent. It might be wise for Ms Erin to be more prudent until she learns more about Cuban history. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 19:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
There has been almost 50 years of censorship in Cuba, this has wide ranging effects on the perception of Cuban matters. Outside of Cuba some academic activists have been attacking and in some cases were able to deny tenure to other academics who have non-Castro view points. Communist party activists world wide have been promoting a spurious view of Cuban data. Cuban archives are only available to those viewed with favor by Cuban government, thus one has to be cautious about data generated in this fashion. El Jigue20:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
If one doubts this, ask a simple current question:
What year was recently deceased. former chief of Cuban armed forces staff and interior minister, Sergio del Valle Jimenez born?
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 20:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD So you want to remove the reality of Cuban censorship, and verification of that reality. Would it be malicious of me to suggest that this request of yours merely supports this point. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 20:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD the reliability of this source is a matter of opinion, since, the material is taken almost verbatim from an official Cuban Government source the periodical Granma. Apparently even the Granma staff does not know the birthdate of an important Cuba official. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
For AP report taken from the same source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071116/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/obit_del_valle_1
GD Make a Sergio del Valle Jimenez page and then we can talk about it. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD guess what a page on him showed up within the last few days. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 21:17, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
GD Subsequent is the most commonly accepted spelling. Bloggins one can presume is somebody from the Shire in Middle Earth. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 00:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
It would seem that Natalie Erin a real newbie on the Cuba page is planning a purge of "anti-Castroites" El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 04:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Take this example from her talk page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Natalie_Erin
Hi, Natalie. Here is bibliotecario galio from the Spanish Wikipedia. The user you are talking about used to be active on es:, as seen on his contributions log while being 205.240.227.15, but seems to have disappeared since I blocked him on May 7. He hasn't signed as El Jigüe nor edited with his current IP, 208.65.188.149. Fortunately, that's all what I have to say. There are, however, some rabious anti-Castro users, but only a checkuser can provide some evidence. Regards, 24.232.175.140 ( talk) 02:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
El Jigue 208.65.188.149 ( talk) 04:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
You decide. Ellomate ( talk) 00:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
There's no difference. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 01:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Socialist, Communist would mean no free enterprise at all.
CaptinJohn ( talk) 15:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The so-called difference between the two terms dates to Lenin, not Marx and Engels. For instance, here is what Engels writes about the Communist Manifesto: "Thus the history of the Manifesto reflects the history of the modern working-class movement; at present, it is doubtless the most wide spread, the most international production of all socialist literature, the common platform acknowledged by millions of working men from Siberia to California." If the two terms were not used synonymously as I contend, he would've described the Manifesto as the most "international production of all communist literature" and not "the most international production of all socialist literature." I can pluck out countless other examples in Marx and Engels works where communism and socialism are also treated synonymously... Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I have just read the Class privilege section below:
While the form of government of Cuba is theoretically opposed to class privilege, preferential treatment exists for those who are members of the Communist Party or who hold positions of power within the government. Housing is in short supply in Cuba and most Cubans live in circumstances that can only be described as poor. Access to better housing is reserved for those favored by the Cuban government. Access to transportation, work, housing, university education and better health care are a function of status within the government or the Communist Party. [6]
[7] For instance, in order to enter university, students are required to pass an entry examination to show they possess the basic knowledge required. In order to take this examination students need a letter from the Committee for the Defense (CDR) CDR of the Revolution vouching for their "political and moral background". It is reported that often people are unable to take the examinations because their letter from the CDR was unfavorable. In one case a student was not allowed to take the examination as the letter stated that he "had friendly relations with elements who wished to leave the country". Human Rights and Education
The first refernece (6) seems to be some sort of online discussion about Fidel Castros personal villa. The second reference (7) is about labour rights. The third (which is stuck in as a link at the end of the section is someones blog. Since only one of the references actually mentions university admission, and that is a blog about somes friend I think the whole section should be removed but before I do that I wanted to give fair notice. If anyone disagrees then please say!
John
CaptinJohn ( talk) 14:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
There are other sources that can be cited on that matter, I will add them shortly. Freedomwarrior ( talk) 02:58, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I love the <sarcasm>! I am thinking that this section might be better off rewritten to say that althought there is no cash cost of attending there are restrictions on people of "questionable loyalty" to the revolution (or who are related to them). If we can get sources we could say that this often, sometimes or seldom prevents someone from attending. Also Id put it under education rather than where it is and call it something like "Educational Access Restrictions" as this is not so much about class as it is about compromising on admissions priciples.
What do people think?
CaptinJohn 16:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. Hope this is ok with everyone
CaptinJohn ( talk) 13:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
It seems necessary to point out that discrimination regarding university entrance is the norm rather than something that only happens on occasion. In general, only those deemed to be supportive of the system - either by being party members or by being vouched for by a CDR are allowed into the University system. Happened to me, happened to at least six or seven other childhood friends. This isn't anything new and I'm wondering what all the hub-bub is about concerning the paragraph. Were folks under the impression that this was not so? Seems like pretty common knowledge although I suppose maybe I am not as familiar with the opinions or assumptions made by those without experience on the island. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.224.35 ( talk) 19:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)