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Wikipedia's charge is to cite scholarly evidence first, especially as it pertains to material in peer-reviewed journals and periodicals. Therefore, the moving of material from the 2nd scholar who was making a different point than the first scholar under a footnote to an opinion of the community is preferring secondary evidence over primary evidence. I have no problem with the opinion of the community being cited, so I have attempted to group the material together as the previous editor intended, but left the best evidence first. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 23:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In my view, this section should remain. It serves two purposes: (1) One of the primary slogans during the riots was that Jews are not allowed to buy property and move into the Crown Heights. This demonstrates the riots failed to promote that cause. (2) Most Jewish groups left Crown Heights as immigrants moved in, with the notable exception of the Lubavitchers. The fact that they remained, even after the riots, indicates their desire to live peacefully with all their neighbors, even those who don't desire their presence.
I am uncomfortable with an editor who decides unilaterally that a section is irrelevant. IMO, after someone has added material, there should be a discussion on this page first prior to deleting it. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 13:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
If someone knows how to Archive this page (to "Archive 2", please do so up to but not including the section "On mixing scholars with opinions of the community", which is where the discussion resumes after the mediation. Thank you. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 13:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The statements added by this editor are false. Edstat ( talk) 04:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The article overview / lead paragraph mentions that the child was "struck", and the next mention tells us that the child was "injured", and it's lmost in passing in the 5th paragraph that we learn the child died. It seems like the overview paragraph could mention that the child was "struck by the car and subsequently died from the injuries" or something. I know that this article is politically charged, and however the story is told will be controversial. But the boys death does seem almost willfully buried here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.86.248.1 ( talk) 13:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Though, I find nothing discernibly wrong with the facts of this article, I do find the tone a bit biased. As stated above, this article is very much politically/racially charged, and it would be a shame to seem one-sided. Example: the opening which states one historian's account of this incident as "the most serious anti-Semitic incident of in American History" and the event is viewed as an example of yet another "pogrom", are, quite simply, opinions. These perhaps do not belong in the general description which heads this piece. Also, contrasting quotes in the "Impact of the riot on the 1993 mayoral race" section like, " '...offical indifference to the plight of Jews, contributed to the defeat of incumbent mayor of New York' ", with "...vocal proponents of 'black nationalism, back-to-Africa, economic radicalism, and racial exclusiveness' " suggests an opinion of the articles author. Please consider -- Jesse.parnell ( talk) 02:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
This article will never have a NPOV because certain wikipedia users want to alter and rewrite history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.124.156 ( talk) 01:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
First paragraph has "causing deteriorated racial relations" but no citation of who voiced this opinion in a publication. Wikipedia eschews original research. So, if you have unpublished data that show a baseline before the riot and a metric of racial relations after the riot, then publish it and then cite it in the article. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Here's another example. Rather than say, "Some Jews feel antisemitism was behind the riots," cite http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-crown-heights-riots/# and write something like A Jewish encyclopedia attributes the riots to antisemitism. | title= The Crown Heights Riots: The outbreak of violence in 1991 was fueled by anti-Semitism. | First=Ben | Last = Havumaki MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:16, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Example #3 "actions during the rioting led Butman to say" I wrote that, but there must be a more neutral way to say it without getting inside the cause-and-effect in Rabbi Butman's head. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
When I added the Butman quotes, I played around with the Viewpoints portion a bit to include citations, so I hope that improves the readability. It's worth taking a look at a little bit at a time with a fresh eye to include a citation where I actually wrote the un-wikipedia-ish statement [Needs citation]. I can re-visit next year on the anniversary. TTFN .. oh great, Malik Shabazz cleaned up Viewpoints even more, including the needs citation blurb. I see that the "as cited in" 25th anniversary isn't necessary in the article, but perhaps it should go in the footnote? MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:24, 31 August 2016 (UTC) MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Should we assume that Havumaki did not write the antisemitism sub-title on his article? Thanks for clarifying wikimedia protocol. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:44, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
I can't find an article online where David Dinkins gave Lee Brown that particular command. Maybe the author of the sentence might be confused with another controversial Brooklyn incident at the Walt Whitman projects [1] where, after a series of gunshots aimed at the police, residents were withheld from leaving their homes by the NYPD in search of the suspects. Responding to the turmoil, James Davis, a councilman, advised police officers to attend a meeting discussing the incident and to "Let them vent.", referring to outraged tenants and community leaders. (For some reason, my footnote link doesn't work. So here it is again: http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-07-29/news/the-visible-man/. ) Winstonwolf33 ( talk) 19:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Winstonwolf33 ( talk) 14:37, 17 Aug 2009
I've deleted the following paragraph from the article:
The section isn't sourced, and without a source it isn't clear that a shooting on September 5 was related to the three-day-long riot that took place two weeks earlier. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 21:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Here's a citation that includes the archived URL, but I am not sure if the format should be news or journal: [1] MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 23:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This article nowhere relies on the Girgenti report. Is there a reason why?
15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.111.141.2 ( talk)
References
It seems this subject is only notable for the role he played in sparking the Crown Heights Riot, so I'm proposed it be merged there, and that this article be redirected to that one. Any objections? — Hunter Kahn ( c) 00:10, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This is not a big deal, but this is a weird headline. Saying that some event "precipitated" a riot doesn't imply that it was the sole cause, and this section is only about the car accident and its immediate aftermath, it doesn't mention any longstanding community tensions. It isn't necessary to say "immediately." Prezbo ( talk) 11:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Maybe another redirect? -- 68.9.117.21 ( talk) 13:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it a travesty of our society (wikipedia including) that Lemrick Nelson has an article as large as this one and Yankel Rosenbaum has none? I know, I know, you will readily tell me that Yankel did nothing notable but getting killed while Lemrick was a noticeable bad bro. <Sigh> ... Loew Galitz ( talk) 20:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems remarkable that a driver breaking a traffic light at speed, striking a legitimate cross traffic car, mounting the pavement, taking out a half ton pillar and then a wall and then killing a child should escape any conviction ? In Europe a dangerous driving charge or a manslaughter charge would have been likely. Is there any record of the driver or his employer paying compensation to the parents of the dead child and of the severely injured child ? Any info on the life of the severely injured child today ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/ Stalk 11:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
The lead says "Some prominent members of the Jewish community still view the events of August 1991 as the "worst pogrom against Jews in United States history.""
What is not said is that media use of the term pogrom caused public controversy. See eg:
So was it a pogrom or not? That's not for us to decide. We should just show both sides, in equal balance.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
03:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
02:28, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
20:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/timeline-1991-crown-heights-riots-unfolded-article-1.945012. http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-01-15/news/the-crown-heights-quiets/ The death of the mob victim Mr. Rosenbaum being due (at least in part) to an overlooked wound is new, to this WP article at any rate.
Here is an article http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-01-15/news/the-crown-heights-quiets/ that mentions also that it was the city of NY rather than the offending driver or his organization, who paid out the 400,000 dollar compensation for the death of child victim Gavin Cato and also references the reversals of the federal convictions of Lemrick Nelson jr. and of Charles Price on the charge of violating the rights of mob victim Yankel Rosenbaum. It also references the Cato father and his more recent expressions on the deaths of and of seeking justice for his son and niece. Should we include this?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/ Stalk 04:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Almost all of the violence was directed from African Americans at Orthodox Jews during the riot. The introduction appears to be using intentionally misleading language to make the reader not aware of that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:3000:1013:435:4AC7:EE1E:ECF2 ( talk) 01:34, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
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Was Dinkins attacked by proponents of black nationalism, economic radicalism etc. or was he attacked for allegedly giving the nod to black nationalism, economic radicalism, and so on? The latter seems more likely (based on the context), but the sentence does not make this particularly clear.
"He was attacked by many political adversaries in his reelection bid, including vocal proponents of “black nationalism, back-to-Africa, economic radicalism, and racial exclusiveness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.124.248 ( talk) 18:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
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Yankel Rosenbaum photo from geneology website November 28, 1961 - August 20, 1991 (29)
Gavin Cato photo from cemetery website 24 Nov 1983 - 19 Aug 1991 (aged 7) photo of father at grave
Anthony Graziosi was born on November 7 1923. Anthony lived in Maspeth, New York 11378, USA. Anthony passed away on September 5 1991, at age 67. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 00:53, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
In the viewpoint section:
A number of studies[citation needed] focused on the allegation that law enforcement habitually favored Jews over African Americans. City Journal refuted the allegation.[6]
There are no cited studies (as noted), nor does the city journal refute the allegation using studies or evidence. It is a commentary piece and should be referenced in the text as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadybabs ( talk • contribs) 13:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
There's been some minor edit warring recently over two edits that I initiated a few weeks ago, so I thought I might establish a discussion topic. Here are the two passages and the proposed edits:
1. "The riots began on August 19, 1991, after two children of Guyanese immigrants were accidentally struck by one of the cars in the motorcade of Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of Chabad, a Jewish religious movement."
I propose that we remove the adjective "accidentally." The entire introduction establishes pretty clearly that the crash was an accident, so the adjective isn't necessary. Furthermore, this sentence functions as an explanation of why some Black residents of the neighborhood began to riot, and for this reason, I think it is important to stick to a bare description of the facts. As is, this sentence suggests that the Black rioters were upset that the crash had been "accidental," when it was the crash itself that triggered the riots. I think this risks violating NPOV.
2. "Not wishing to lose sight of Schneerson's car, Lifsh's vehicle either crossed Utica Avenue on a yellow light or ran a red light."
I think "Lifsh's vehicle" should be changed to just read "Lifsh," because vehicles do not have wishes to lose sight of cars. Only living beings have wishes, and in this situation, the living being was Lifsh. This sentence just does not make sense. The other usages of the term "Lifsh's vehicle" in this paragraph are fine, because they do not ascribe it motivation. theBOBbobato ( talk) 16:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 19, 2011 and August 19, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Crown Heights riot be
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improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
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The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
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Wikipedia's charge is to cite scholarly evidence first, especially as it pertains to material in peer-reviewed journals and periodicals. Therefore, the moving of material from the 2nd scholar who was making a different point than the first scholar under a footnote to an opinion of the community is preferring secondary evidence over primary evidence. I have no problem with the opinion of the community being cited, so I have attempted to group the material together as the previous editor intended, but left the best evidence first. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 23:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
In my view, this section should remain. It serves two purposes: (1) One of the primary slogans during the riots was that Jews are not allowed to buy property and move into the Crown Heights. This demonstrates the riots failed to promote that cause. (2) Most Jewish groups left Crown Heights as immigrants moved in, with the notable exception of the Lubavitchers. The fact that they remained, even after the riots, indicates their desire to live peacefully with all their neighbors, even those who don't desire their presence.
I am uncomfortable with an editor who decides unilaterally that a section is irrelevant. IMO, after someone has added material, there should be a discussion on this page first prior to deleting it. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 13:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
If someone knows how to Archive this page (to "Archive 2", please do so up to but not including the section "On mixing scholars with opinions of the community", which is where the discussion resumes after the mediation. Thank you. 68.43.236.4 ( talk) 13:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The statements added by this editor are false. Edstat ( talk) 04:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The article overview / lead paragraph mentions that the child was "struck", and the next mention tells us that the child was "injured", and it's lmost in passing in the 5th paragraph that we learn the child died. It seems like the overview paragraph could mention that the child was "struck by the car and subsequently died from the injuries" or something. I know that this article is politically charged, and however the story is told will be controversial. But the boys death does seem almost willfully buried here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.86.248.1 ( talk) 13:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Though, I find nothing discernibly wrong with the facts of this article, I do find the tone a bit biased. As stated above, this article is very much politically/racially charged, and it would be a shame to seem one-sided. Example: the opening which states one historian's account of this incident as "the most serious anti-Semitic incident of in American History" and the event is viewed as an example of yet another "pogrom", are, quite simply, opinions. These perhaps do not belong in the general description which heads this piece. Also, contrasting quotes in the "Impact of the riot on the 1993 mayoral race" section like, " '...offical indifference to the plight of Jews, contributed to the defeat of incumbent mayor of New York' ", with "...vocal proponents of 'black nationalism, back-to-Africa, economic radicalism, and racial exclusiveness' " suggests an opinion of the articles author. Please consider -- Jesse.parnell ( talk) 02:05, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
This article will never have a NPOV because certain wikipedia users want to alter and rewrite history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.124.156 ( talk) 01:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
First paragraph has "causing deteriorated racial relations" but no citation of who voiced this opinion in a publication. Wikipedia eschews original research. So, if you have unpublished data that show a baseline before the riot and a metric of racial relations after the riot, then publish it and then cite it in the article. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Here's another example. Rather than say, "Some Jews feel antisemitism was behind the riots," cite http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-crown-heights-riots/# and write something like A Jewish encyclopedia attributes the riots to antisemitism. | title= The Crown Heights Riots: The outbreak of violence in 1991 was fueled by anti-Semitism. | First=Ben | Last = Havumaki MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:16, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Example #3 "actions during the rioting led Butman to say" I wrote that, but there must be a more neutral way to say it without getting inside the cause-and-effect in Rabbi Butman's head. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
When I added the Butman quotes, I played around with the Viewpoints portion a bit to include citations, so I hope that improves the readability. It's worth taking a look at a little bit at a time with a fresh eye to include a citation where I actually wrote the un-wikipedia-ish statement [Needs citation]. I can re-visit next year on the anniversary. TTFN .. oh great, Malik Shabazz cleaned up Viewpoints even more, including the needs citation blurb. I see that the "as cited in" 25th anniversary isn't necessary in the article, but perhaps it should go in the footnote? MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:24, 31 August 2016 (UTC) MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Should we assume that Havumaki did not write the antisemitism sub-title on his article? Thanks for clarifying wikimedia protocol. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 02:44, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
I can't find an article online where David Dinkins gave Lee Brown that particular command. Maybe the author of the sentence might be confused with another controversial Brooklyn incident at the Walt Whitman projects [1] where, after a series of gunshots aimed at the police, residents were withheld from leaving their homes by the NYPD in search of the suspects. Responding to the turmoil, James Davis, a councilman, advised police officers to attend a meeting discussing the incident and to "Let them vent.", referring to outraged tenants and community leaders. (For some reason, my footnote link doesn't work. So here it is again: http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-07-29/news/the-visible-man/. ) Winstonwolf33 ( talk) 19:42, 16 August 2009 (UTC) Winstonwolf33 ( talk) 14:37, 17 Aug 2009
I've deleted the following paragraph from the article:
The section isn't sourced, and without a source it isn't clear that a shooting on September 5 was related to the three-day-long riot that took place two weeks earlier. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 21:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Here's a citation that includes the archived URL, but I am not sure if the format should be news or journal: [1] MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 23:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This article nowhere relies on the Girgenti report. Is there a reason why?
15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)15:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.111.141.2 ( talk)
References
It seems this subject is only notable for the role he played in sparking the Crown Heights Riot, so I'm proposed it be merged there, and that this article be redirected to that one. Any objections? — Hunter Kahn ( c) 00:10, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This is not a big deal, but this is a weird headline. Saying that some event "precipitated" a riot doesn't imply that it was the sole cause, and this section is only about the car accident and its immediate aftermath, it doesn't mention any longstanding community tensions. It isn't necessary to say "immediately." Prezbo ( talk) 11:08, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Maybe another redirect? -- 68.9.117.21 ( talk) 13:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it a travesty of our society (wikipedia including) that Lemrick Nelson has an article as large as this one and Yankel Rosenbaum has none? I know, I know, you will readily tell me that Yankel did nothing notable but getting killed while Lemrick was a noticeable bad bro. <Sigh> ... Loew Galitz ( talk) 20:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems remarkable that a driver breaking a traffic light at speed, striking a legitimate cross traffic car, mounting the pavement, taking out a half ton pillar and then a wall and then killing a child should escape any conviction ? In Europe a dangerous driving charge or a manslaughter charge would have been likely. Is there any record of the driver or his employer paying compensation to the parents of the dead child and of the severely injured child ? Any info on the life of the severely injured child today ?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/ Stalk 11:35, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
The lead says "Some prominent members of the Jewish community still view the events of August 1991 as the "worst pogrom against Jews in United States history.""
What is not said is that media use of the term pogrom caused public controversy. See eg:
So was it a pogrom or not? That's not for us to decide. We should just show both sides, in equal balance.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 15:08, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
03:44, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
02:28, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Zad
68
20:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/timeline-1991-crown-heights-riots-unfolded-article-1.945012. http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-01-15/news/the-crown-heights-quiets/ The death of the mob victim Mr. Rosenbaum being due (at least in part) to an overlooked wound is new, to this WP article at any rate.
Here is an article http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-01-15/news/the-crown-heights-quiets/ that mentions also that it was the city of NY rather than the offending driver or his organization, who paid out the 400,000 dollar compensation for the death of child victim Gavin Cato and also references the reversals of the federal convictions of Lemrick Nelson jr. and of Charles Price on the charge of violating the rights of mob victim Yankel Rosenbaum. It also references the Cato father and his more recent expressions on the deaths of and of seeking justice for his son and niece. Should we include this?--— ⦿⨦⨀Tumadoireacht Talk/ Stalk 04:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Almost all of the violence was directed from African Americans at Orthodox Jews during the riot. The introduction appears to be using intentionally misleading language to make the reader not aware of that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:3000:1013:435:4AC7:EE1E:ECF2 ( talk) 01:34, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Crown Heights riot. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:43, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
Was Dinkins attacked by proponents of black nationalism, economic radicalism etc. or was he attacked for allegedly giving the nod to black nationalism, economic radicalism, and so on? The latter seems more likely (based on the context), but the sentence does not make this particularly clear.
"He was attacked by many political adversaries in his reelection bid, including vocal proponents of “black nationalism, back-to-Africa, economic radicalism, and racial exclusiveness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.121.124.248 ( talk) 18:59, 16 July 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Crown Heights riot. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Yankel Rosenbaum photo from geneology website November 28, 1961 - August 20, 1991 (29)
Gavin Cato photo from cemetery website 24 Nov 1983 - 19 Aug 1991 (aged 7) photo of father at grave
Anthony Graziosi was born on November 7 1923. Anthony lived in Maspeth, New York 11378, USA. Anthony passed away on September 5 1991, at age 67. MichelleInSanMarcos ( talk) 00:53, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
In the viewpoint section:
A number of studies[citation needed] focused on the allegation that law enforcement habitually favored Jews over African Americans. City Journal refuted the allegation.[6]
There are no cited studies (as noted), nor does the city journal refute the allegation using studies or evidence. It is a commentary piece and should be referenced in the text as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadybabs ( talk • contribs) 13:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
There's been some minor edit warring recently over two edits that I initiated a few weeks ago, so I thought I might establish a discussion topic. Here are the two passages and the proposed edits:
1. "The riots began on August 19, 1991, after two children of Guyanese immigrants were accidentally struck by one of the cars in the motorcade of Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the leader of Chabad, a Jewish religious movement."
I propose that we remove the adjective "accidentally." The entire introduction establishes pretty clearly that the crash was an accident, so the adjective isn't necessary. Furthermore, this sentence functions as an explanation of why some Black residents of the neighborhood began to riot, and for this reason, I think it is important to stick to a bare description of the facts. As is, this sentence suggests that the Black rioters were upset that the crash had been "accidental," when it was the crash itself that triggered the riots. I think this risks violating NPOV.
2. "Not wishing to lose sight of Schneerson's car, Lifsh's vehicle either crossed Utica Avenue on a yellow light or ran a red light."
I think "Lifsh's vehicle" should be changed to just read "Lifsh," because vehicles do not have wishes to lose sight of cars. Only living beings have wishes, and in this situation, the living being was Lifsh. This sentence just does not make sense. The other usages of the term "Lifsh's vehicle" in this paragraph are fine, because they do not ascribe it motivation. theBOBbobato ( talk) 16:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)