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The route diagram template for this article can be found in Template:Cross Country Route RDT. |
DO they use turbostars on the Lickey? And are they any good for torque? I'd have thought (on the basis mind you of prejudice) you needed the flexibility of a diesel-electric to make a decent fist of the gradient?? Linuxlad 09:45, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah yes. What speed do they do the Lickey? (the Voyagers seem to do about 60; the old 2,500 hp diesel-electrics were often struggling at 30 to 40 IIRC. (I like to set it as a work/energy problem to Year 11 students :-)) Linuxlad 13:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NB NB - don't forget the stub
Cross Country services created to lead in to all the routes through Brum with a cross-country flavour, 'drilling down' (chris j wood's nice phrase) to particular examples such as this (MR) one. In so far as the SW/NW route through Brum counts as Cross Country, it should perhaps be referenced there.
Linuxlad 20:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"many older diesels were underpowered' - this is a bit questionable as a statement - they provided 2500 bhp, just like it said they would on the can (a fun sum, within the capabilities of a competent GCSE student at Y11 :-)). And this was significantly better than the steam locos of earlier year which only did (from memory) 600 bhp. What is possibly true (IIRC citation needed) is that a nominal 3300bhp electric loco was capable of being _over-run_ for a period, making it very useful on eg West Coast Main line... Bob aka Linuxlad 14:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
what is "cinderella" status? I'm guessing from the context maybe something to do with the fact that if it ran late it became severley delayed (turned into a pumpkin)? Is this correct? Could someone who knows expand the article please...? Tjwood 6 July 2005 10:41 (UTC)
Cinderella, though best of the bunch, usually had to play second string to her sisters. In a similar way, the cross-country route, though offering some of the longest Inter-City journeys on the network, was never actively promoted and timetabled, because of BR's structure. I recollect the phrase being Ivor Warburton's, but I may be wrong (it's many year's since the conversation, on the aforesaid route) Linuxlad
This would appear to include the route as follows
We need to identify which segments of rail are covered by which wikipedia articles already, and which aren't. The Derby-Sheffield part is part of the Midland Main Line - there is only one railway line going north from Derby, which merges with the Nottingham loop of the MML south of Chesterfield and then goes through Sheffield. The main route here then appears to go via Rotherham, Swinton/Mexborough, Pontefract, York, Northallerton, Darlington, east of Aycliffe, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshaed, Newcastle, etc. The latter part of this is of course the East Coast Main Line. So what bits of this route correspond to what? Morwen - Talk 23:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing on this page which could be disputed or cited. I don't understand the tag at the top of this page. Everything here is backed up by other Wikipedia articles. Mojo29 23:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't the cross country route go to Penzance, Aberdeen and Glasgow? Dewarw 09:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In the new Cross Country franchise this route does not even exist anymore, Mark999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark999 ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Would this route be part of the cross-country route? as most of its route is on the current ccr and will be operated by crosscountry very soon Mark999 13:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This article confuses the "Cross Country Route", as in the Midland line from Bristol to Derby and beyond, with the "Cross Country Franchise", as in the long-distance services running across it, and "CrossCountry", the current franchisee. The three need to be separated out somewhat. 90.203.45.244 ( talk) 21:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we have a source to say Worcester is actually on the CCR? It seems like an odd diversion to me, especially given that the rest of it has no diversions whatsoever, and Worcester's hardly a big place. - mattbuck ( Talk) 20:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
There are currently problems with template transclusion in this article, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Cross Country Route. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 14:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
As at least a temporary fix I've moved the route diagram out to a separate page ( Cross Country Route diagram) so that the rest of the templates in the article (including reference citations) can be displayed. If someone wishes to improve the links and formatting they are, of course, welcome to do so. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 15:56, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
As even that separate diagram hit the template transclusion size limit after a number of changes by other editors, I have now split the diagram into two parts, Cross Country Route (North) and Cross Country Route (South). -- David Biddulph ( talk) 00:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to an as-of-yet undetermined destination. The consensus is clearly to move the page (removing the Title Case), but there is no firm consensus about where to move it. I suggest a new discussion (possibly an RFC) to determine the new location. Primefac ( talk) 14:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Cross Country Route → Cross-country route – Or possibly some better name. I can't find any evidence of the current title, capped and punctuated thus, in sources. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 07:37, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
in the new Cross Country franchise this route does not even exist anymore. That would be the CrossCountry (camel case, a train operating company) franchise. Per CrossCountry § Routes, Aberdeen and Penzance are not on a basic route, but rather are extensions to the basic service pattern. See CrossCountry network map. Cross Country services (proper name, but not camel case), appears to be an article about the franchiser, rather than the franchisee ( CrossCountry), but we don't have much sourcing about the franchiser (the British government?) either. Cross-country route seems too generic. There are many countries with cross-country routes, and many cross-country routes within a given country. These cross-country routes could be rail lines, or they could be roads, or even perhaps footpaths. Maybe Aberdeen–Penzance rail route? – wbm1058 ( talk) 18:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
And I will happily withdraw this RM proposal in favor of a better name if someone proposes one that's likely to achieve consensus. Or we can just work it out in this discussion, perhaps. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
OK, let's work out the scope and come up with a better name; but in any case, we don't make up proper names, so unless we find a better name, let's downcase this one (and put the hyphen as most sources do). Dicklyon ( talk) 23:04, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058, RGloucester, SMcCandlish, Jenks24, Black Kite, Robertiki, Redrose64, and Mattbuck: We never did finish picking a name after the consensus that this needed to move, about 5 years ago. Any good ideas? SMcCandlish had suggested CrossCountry North East – South West route which might be as good as any, though more concise might be nice. I'm going to be on the road for a while; might check back and see if there's any further ideas, and if not maybe I'll just move to that one. Dicklyon ( talk) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Sounds good to me but I suggest there is a bit more consensus than just us two 23:58, 10 April 2022 (UTC) GRALISTAIR ( talk) 00:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus; reverting back to previous stable title. The history of this article's title is a messy one, so before getting into my own rationale, I want to include a timeline of the titling history for reference:
Timeline
|
---|
|
Within the RM discussion, I've seen opposition to the current title and the proposed title, but little willingness to expressly support any given title. The main arguments that pertain to these titles seem to be as follows:
contrivedand another calling it a
cumbersome mess.
In summary, the current title is regarded as a poor title and the proposed title is regarded as a poor title; alternate titles were raised in one comment, only to be shot down in the same message that initially proposed them. This discussion did not result in a consensus for any title.
However, one participant did make the argument that – in the absence of consensus – the best course of action would be moving back to the most longstanding established title, which was Cross Country Route
. I find myself convinced by this argument, for two principal reasons. First, although the current title has been in place for nearly a year and a half, it is also true that "Cross Country Route" has been the title for approximately 15 years throughout the article's history, indicating a strong level of stability. Second, the discussion that led this article to be moved to its current title had little publicity and few participants, and opposition emerged not long after the move went through; thus, any consensus to adopt the "CrossCountry NE–SW route" title was a very weak one in the first place.
Finally, just as a reminder about RM norms: because this proposal ended in a no-consensus result, participants should not feel dissuaded from opening a follow-up RM if they would like to propose a not-previously-discussed title for the article. We may not have found the ideal title for this article yet, but one may still exist out there somewhere. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
CrossCountry NE–SW route → Cross Country Route – Per my comments of last April (above). The consensus was not there to move away from the old title, with no widely-publised RM and I happen to think the renaming was a mistake. Ping Dicklyon, GRALISTAIR, SMcCandlish, Black Kite, wbm1058. Rcsprinter123 (notify) 21:01, 17 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
"Cross Country Route" of what, and where?is a question which is answered by the lead sentence of the article. We don't expect our readers to immediately know what all 6+ million articles are about from just reading their titles; we expect them to read the ledes. – wbm1058 ( talk) 15:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is the suffix of UK now added to the title? To me, that seems less like a railway line and more like a description of a bunch of lines. Could I have some context as to why it had UK added, as I can't find it in the section above. Nathan A RF ( talk) 09:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
"The Cross Country Route is a long-distance rail route in the United Kingdom that has in its central part superseded the Midland Railway." What does this mean? The Midland Railway ceased to exist in 1922. It was superseded by the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, not by the Cross Country Route. What is this important first sentence trying to say? 87.75.117.183 ( talk) 13:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
This section was/is out of date. I have made a start updating it and will try and complete in next few days GRALISTAIR ( talk) 20:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC) I have updated but if someone can check my work that would be good GRALISTAIR ( talk) 01:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The route diagram template for this article can be found in Template:Cross Country Route RDT. |
DO they use turbostars on the Lickey? And are they any good for torque? I'd have thought (on the basis mind you of prejudice) you needed the flexibility of a diesel-electric to make a decent fist of the gradient?? Linuxlad 09:45, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Ah yes. What speed do they do the Lickey? (the Voyagers seem to do about 60; the old 2,500 hp diesel-electrics were often struggling at 30 to 40 IIRC. (I like to set it as a work/energy problem to Year 11 students :-)) Linuxlad 13:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NB NB - don't forget the stub
Cross Country services created to lead in to all the routes through Brum with a cross-country flavour, 'drilling down' (chris j wood's nice phrase) to particular examples such as this (MR) one. In so far as the SW/NW route through Brum counts as Cross Country, it should perhaps be referenced there.
Linuxlad 20:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"many older diesels were underpowered' - this is a bit questionable as a statement - they provided 2500 bhp, just like it said they would on the can (a fun sum, within the capabilities of a competent GCSE student at Y11 :-)). And this was significantly better than the steam locos of earlier year which only did (from memory) 600 bhp. What is possibly true (IIRC citation needed) is that a nominal 3300bhp electric loco was capable of being _over-run_ for a period, making it very useful on eg West Coast Main line... Bob aka Linuxlad 14:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
what is "cinderella" status? I'm guessing from the context maybe something to do with the fact that if it ran late it became severley delayed (turned into a pumpkin)? Is this correct? Could someone who knows expand the article please...? Tjwood 6 July 2005 10:41 (UTC)
Cinderella, though best of the bunch, usually had to play second string to her sisters. In a similar way, the cross-country route, though offering some of the longest Inter-City journeys on the network, was never actively promoted and timetabled, because of BR's structure. I recollect the phrase being Ivor Warburton's, but I may be wrong (it's many year's since the conversation, on the aforesaid route) Linuxlad
This would appear to include the route as follows
We need to identify which segments of rail are covered by which wikipedia articles already, and which aren't. The Derby-Sheffield part is part of the Midland Main Line - there is only one railway line going north from Derby, which merges with the Nottingham loop of the MML south of Chesterfield and then goes through Sheffield. The main route here then appears to go via Rotherham, Swinton/Mexborough, Pontefract, York, Northallerton, Darlington, east of Aycliffe, Durham, Chester le Street, Gateshaed, Newcastle, etc. The latter part of this is of course the East Coast Main Line. So what bits of this route correspond to what? Morwen - Talk 23:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing on this page which could be disputed or cited. I don't understand the tag at the top of this page. Everything here is backed up by other Wikipedia articles. Mojo29 23:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Doesn't the cross country route go to Penzance, Aberdeen and Glasgow? Dewarw 09:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In the new Cross Country franchise this route does not even exist anymore, Mark999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mark999 ( talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Would this route be part of the cross-country route? as most of its route is on the current ccr and will be operated by crosscountry very soon Mark999 13:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
This article confuses the "Cross Country Route", as in the Midland line from Bristol to Derby and beyond, with the "Cross Country Franchise", as in the long-distance services running across it, and "CrossCountry", the current franchisee. The three need to be separated out somewhat. 90.203.45.244 ( talk) 21:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Do we have a source to say Worcester is actually on the CCR? It seems like an odd diversion to me, especially given that the rest of it has no diversions whatsoever, and Worcester's hardly a big place. - mattbuck ( Talk) 20:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)
There are currently problems with template transclusion in this article, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Cross Country Route. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 14:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
As at least a temporary fix I've moved the route diagram out to a separate page ( Cross Country Route diagram) so that the rest of the templates in the article (including reference citations) can be displayed. If someone wishes to improve the links and formatting they are, of course, welcome to do so. -- David Biddulph ( talk) 15:56, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
As even that separate diagram hit the template transclusion size limit after a number of changes by other editors, I have now split the diagram into two parts, Cross Country Route (North) and Cross Country Route (South). -- David Biddulph ( talk) 00:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: move to an as-of-yet undetermined destination. The consensus is clearly to move the page (removing the Title Case), but there is no firm consensus about where to move it. I suggest a new discussion (possibly an RFC) to determine the new location. Primefac ( talk) 14:06, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Cross Country Route → Cross-country route – Or possibly some better name. I can't find any evidence of the current title, capped and punctuated thus, in sources. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 ( talk) 07:37, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
in the new Cross Country franchise this route does not even exist anymore. That would be the CrossCountry (camel case, a train operating company) franchise. Per CrossCountry § Routes, Aberdeen and Penzance are not on a basic route, but rather are extensions to the basic service pattern. See CrossCountry network map. Cross Country services (proper name, but not camel case), appears to be an article about the franchiser, rather than the franchisee ( CrossCountry), but we don't have much sourcing about the franchiser (the British government?) either. Cross-country route seems too generic. There are many countries with cross-country routes, and many cross-country routes within a given country. These cross-country routes could be rail lines, or they could be roads, or even perhaps footpaths. Maybe Aberdeen–Penzance rail route? – wbm1058 ( talk) 18:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
And I will happily withdraw this RM proposal in favor of a better name if someone proposes one that's likely to achieve consensus. Or we can just work it out in this discussion, perhaps. Dicklyon ( talk) 19:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
OK, let's work out the scope and come up with a better name; but in any case, we don't make up proper names, so unless we find a better name, let's downcase this one (and put the hyphen as most sources do). Dicklyon ( talk) 23:04, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
@ Wbm1058, RGloucester, SMcCandlish, Jenks24, Black Kite, Robertiki, Redrose64, and Mattbuck: We never did finish picking a name after the consensus that this needed to move, about 5 years ago. Any good ideas? SMcCandlish had suggested CrossCountry North East – South West route which might be as good as any, though more concise might be nice. I'm going to be on the road for a while; might check back and see if there's any further ideas, and if not maybe I'll just move to that one. Dicklyon ( talk) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Sounds good to me but I suggest there is a bit more consensus than just us two 23:58, 10 April 2022 (UTC) GRALISTAIR ( talk) 00:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus; reverting back to previous stable title. The history of this article's title is a messy one, so before getting into my own rationale, I want to include a timeline of the titling history for reference:
Timeline
|
---|
|
Within the RM discussion, I've seen opposition to the current title and the proposed title, but little willingness to expressly support any given title. The main arguments that pertain to these titles seem to be as follows:
contrivedand another calling it a
cumbersome mess.
In summary, the current title is regarded as a poor title and the proposed title is regarded as a poor title; alternate titles were raised in one comment, only to be shot down in the same message that initially proposed them. This discussion did not result in a consensus for any title.
However, one participant did make the argument that – in the absence of consensus – the best course of action would be moving back to the most longstanding established title, which was Cross Country Route
. I find myself convinced by this argument, for two principal reasons. First, although the current title has been in place for nearly a year and a half, it is also true that "Cross Country Route" has been the title for approximately 15 years throughout the article's history, indicating a strong level of stability. Second, the discussion that led this article to be moved to its current title had little publicity and few participants, and opposition emerged not long after the move went through; thus, any consensus to adopt the "CrossCountry NE–SW route" title was a very weak one in the first place.
Finally, just as a reminder about RM norms: because this proposal ended in a no-consensus result, participants should not feel dissuaded from opening a follow-up RM if they would like to propose a not-previously-discussed title for the article. We may not have found the ideal title for this article yet, but one may still exist out there somewhere. ( closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
CrossCountry NE–SW route → Cross Country Route – Per my comments of last April (above). The consensus was not there to move away from the old title, with no widely-publised RM and I happen to think the renaming was a mistake. Ping Dicklyon, GRALISTAIR, SMcCandlish, Black Kite, wbm1058. Rcsprinter123 (notify) 21:01, 17 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite ( talk • contribs) 13:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
"Cross Country Route" of what, and where?is a question which is answered by the lead sentence of the article. We don't expect our readers to immediately know what all 6+ million articles are about from just reading their titles; we expect them to read the ledes. – wbm1058 ( talk) 15:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is the suffix of UK now added to the title? To me, that seems less like a railway line and more like a description of a bunch of lines. Could I have some context as to why it had UK added, as I can't find it in the section above. Nathan A RF ( talk) 09:55, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
"The Cross Country Route is a long-distance rail route in the United Kingdom that has in its central part superseded the Midland Railway." What does this mean? The Midland Railway ceased to exist in 1922. It was superseded by the London, Midland and Scottish Railway, not by the Cross Country Route. What is this important first sentence trying to say? 87.75.117.183 ( talk) 13:53, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
This section was/is out of date. I have made a start updating it and will try and complete in next few days GRALISTAIR ( talk) 20:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC) I have updated but if someone can check my work that would be good GRALISTAIR ( talk) 01:59, 11 April 2022 (UTC)