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I recommend a couple of edits to the section Social Planning.
I don't know enough about the subject to address either issue. Some of what I added lately is also skeletal, and is equally available for being beefed up.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Despite referenced criticisms of Marriage, this article needs to elaborate more on the referenced articles. (Marriage Sux is not an argument, despite any references that suggest so.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.241.243 ( talk) 01:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is written npov. This means that we are neither for nor against violence against women!
So that section needs to be rewritten to state that UN resolution says thus and so, and various countries (enumerate, if possible) are not in compliance with that resolution. The section is currently a vague rant against possibly (not really sure) various Arabic and African countries. Maybe some Asian ones thrown in for good measure. Or maybe more. Who knows? Student7 ( talk) 22:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
We need better structure in this article. We seem to be rapidly losing control. Not every "fresh" material requires a brand new subsection to support it. Possibly an old one can be found that will serve. It might need renaming. Sections should be broadly (simply) named anyway, otherwise we'll wind up with too many. Ten is probably more than enough. We're just about there now. Student7 ( talk) 22:41, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
I have seen that you have reverted several changes, stating in your summary that WP must present the subject of violence against women, legal inequality between husband & wife, marital rape, dowry violence etc from a neutral POV. But these are considered violations of human rights by the UN, and crimes under international law. Domestic violence, including marital rape, is listed as a human rights violation by international conventions.
The 1993 UN Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women lists domestic violence against women as a human rights violation, and defines it as: [1]
"Physical, sexual and psychological violence occurring in the family, including battering, sexual abuse of female children in the household, dowry-related violence, marital rape, female genital mutilation and other traditional practices harmful to women, non- spousal violence and violence related to exploitation".
Other articles, such as Rape, Murder, Child sexual abuse etc, are not presented in a neutral way, because these acts are officially considered human rights abuses by international organizations.
The section on 'History' contains the paragraph:
I'm going to remove it because it is not about criticism of marriage which is the subject of this article. It is off topic. It is rather a criticism of divorce, and a support for plural marriages (which are also marriages) and bigamy. It does not criticize the institution of marriage itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.26.250 ( talk) 07:40, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Material states:
The quote is over a century old. A lot has happened in one century in public morals and opinions.
Shaw is rather the reverse of an expert on marriage.
The quote is from a life-long bachelor, possibly misogynist. His biases should be revealed IMO. He is not an authority on marriage, but rather an authority on "letters." A wordsmith. An amusing person. Would you allow a quote from Dave Barry here? Should we have a section devoted to "jokes about marriage?" The summary of his remarks are already there. The quote is there, unnecessarily, simply adding extra words in a pov language. The earlier remarks summarize his remarks in a npov manner. "Prisoners" and "lock him in" is obviously pov and not necessary nor desirable to the criticism article. The "him" is a giveaway as well. How about locking her in? Misogyny. The words are unencylopedic and demean the level of argument. It overstates the position and sounds desperate for attention.
Sometime quotes are needed when they are npov and present statistics or something that can't really be summarized properly. Or is from an npov source (government, UN) but emphasizes that the activity/outcome was desirable/undesirable. Student7 ( talk) 15:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
So what? This article is about criticism of marriage; older views are as important as new views, because the article is supposed to give a general overview - both historical and present - of the opposition to marriage. It would be inappropriate to only focus on present views. Also, older writings on marriage from past authors often serve as a source of inspiration for new writings by contemporary authors (as with all subjects).
First of all, what on earth is an "expert on marriage"? It's not like we're talking about an expert in chemistry, or in any hard science - ie. something in which one can have clear credentials. Shaw is clearly a relevant personality - a Nobel laureate. He expressed political and social views during his lifetime - he had opinions on relevant social issues; and there is no reason as to why his views, as an important personality, should not be cited in this article. His lifestyle, character etc, are completely irrelevant. We present ideas from relevant authors here, we do not judge their lifestyles and other personal characteristics. (And btw Shaw was not a "life-long bachelor", he was married to Charlotte Payne-Townshend).
Well, quotes are biased and POV, when they express a specific idea/criticism. We don't endorse their POV, we present the quote to the reader. In fact, sometimes, it is much better to have the quote from the author, rather than summarize it, because we can get it wrong, especially if the quote is complex.
Again see above. Quotes are not neutral. (And as an aside note: "Prisoners" and "lock him in" are used rather metaphorically in the quote above (IMO), but even if they were meant to be taken literally they would still not be exaggerated - at the time on this quote people were literally 'prisoners' and 'locked' in their marriages as divorce was extremely difficult to obtain and highly stigmatized too - and this continues to be the case today in most countries outside the West).
You say: "The "him" is a giveaway as well. How about locking her in?
Until very recently, the English language used "he/man" as masculine generics, ie. "he" was used to refer to any person - in ordinary language, in legal texts etc; there simply was no other generally accepted form (when referred to a 'person' - unless it was clear that the person was a female). Yes, this was extremely misogynistic - and this has been a major area of activism by feminists. But Shaw was simply using the language of his time; he should not be faulted for this.
i never want to have a wedding of my own and i wish everyone else would stop doing that
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The article touches upon solely the feminist criticism of marriage, while many argue that in modern times women benefit from marriage more than men do, and it's men who begin increasingly avoiding marriage due to the easier availability of sex. Women also tend to get half of the common wealth and possessions after divorce, an undesirable perspective for many men. There are many similar reasons that are often given by men - it would be nice to add a section to the article about criticisms raised by men.
Although it may sound like a conspiracy theory, many people say, criticism of a maggiage together with intentional raising of individualism and supported with corresponding law acts may be used to fight against overpopulation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.67.163.43 ( talk) 21:25, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
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I recommend a couple of edits to the section Social Planning.
I don't know enough about the subject to address either issue. Some of what I added lately is also skeletal, and is equally available for being beefed up.
Nick Levinson ( talk) 04:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Despite referenced criticisms of Marriage, this article needs to elaborate more on the referenced articles. (Marriage Sux is not an argument, despite any references that suggest so.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.244.241.243 ( talk) 01:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is written npov. This means that we are neither for nor against violence against women!
So that section needs to be rewritten to state that UN resolution says thus and so, and various countries (enumerate, if possible) are not in compliance with that resolution. The section is currently a vague rant against possibly (not really sure) various Arabic and African countries. Maybe some Asian ones thrown in for good measure. Or maybe more. Who knows? Student7 ( talk) 22:22, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
We need better structure in this article. We seem to be rapidly losing control. Not every "fresh" material requires a brand new subsection to support it. Possibly an old one can be found that will serve. It might need renaming. Sections should be broadly (simply) named anyway, otherwise we'll wind up with too many. Ten is probably more than enough. We're just about there now. Student7 ( talk) 22:41, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
I have seen that you have reverted several changes, stating in your summary that WP must present the subject of violence against women, legal inequality between husband & wife, marital rape, dowry violence etc from a neutral POV. But these are considered violations of human rights by the UN, and crimes under international law. Domestic violence, including marital rape, is listed as a human rights violation by international conventions.
The 1993 UN Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women lists domestic violence against women as a human rights violation, and defines it as: [1]
"Physical, sexual and psychological violence occurring in the family, including battering, sexual abuse of female children in the household, dowry-related violence, marital rape, female genital mutilation and other traditional practices harmful to women, non- spousal violence and violence related to exploitation".
Other articles, such as Rape, Murder, Child sexual abuse etc, are not presented in a neutral way, because these acts are officially considered human rights abuses by international organizations.
The section on 'History' contains the paragraph:
I'm going to remove it because it is not about criticism of marriage which is the subject of this article. It is off topic. It is rather a criticism of divorce, and a support for plural marriages (which are also marriages) and bigamy. It does not criticize the institution of marriage itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.26.250 ( talk) 07:40, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Material states:
The quote is over a century old. A lot has happened in one century in public morals and opinions.
Shaw is rather the reverse of an expert on marriage.
The quote is from a life-long bachelor, possibly misogynist. His biases should be revealed IMO. He is not an authority on marriage, but rather an authority on "letters." A wordsmith. An amusing person. Would you allow a quote from Dave Barry here? Should we have a section devoted to "jokes about marriage?" The summary of his remarks are already there. The quote is there, unnecessarily, simply adding extra words in a pov language. The earlier remarks summarize his remarks in a npov manner. "Prisoners" and "lock him in" is obviously pov and not necessary nor desirable to the criticism article. The "him" is a giveaway as well. How about locking her in? Misogyny. The words are unencylopedic and demean the level of argument. It overstates the position and sounds desperate for attention.
Sometime quotes are needed when they are npov and present statistics or something that can't really be summarized properly. Or is from an npov source (government, UN) but emphasizes that the activity/outcome was desirable/undesirable. Student7 ( talk) 15:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
So what? This article is about criticism of marriage; older views are as important as new views, because the article is supposed to give a general overview - both historical and present - of the opposition to marriage. It would be inappropriate to only focus on present views. Also, older writings on marriage from past authors often serve as a source of inspiration for new writings by contemporary authors (as with all subjects).
First of all, what on earth is an "expert on marriage"? It's not like we're talking about an expert in chemistry, or in any hard science - ie. something in which one can have clear credentials. Shaw is clearly a relevant personality - a Nobel laureate. He expressed political and social views during his lifetime - he had opinions on relevant social issues; and there is no reason as to why his views, as an important personality, should not be cited in this article. His lifestyle, character etc, are completely irrelevant. We present ideas from relevant authors here, we do not judge their lifestyles and other personal characteristics. (And btw Shaw was not a "life-long bachelor", he was married to Charlotte Payne-Townshend).
Well, quotes are biased and POV, when they express a specific idea/criticism. We don't endorse their POV, we present the quote to the reader. In fact, sometimes, it is much better to have the quote from the author, rather than summarize it, because we can get it wrong, especially if the quote is complex.
Again see above. Quotes are not neutral. (And as an aside note: "Prisoners" and "lock him in" are used rather metaphorically in the quote above (IMO), but even if they were meant to be taken literally they would still not be exaggerated - at the time on this quote people were literally 'prisoners' and 'locked' in their marriages as divorce was extremely difficult to obtain and highly stigmatized too - and this continues to be the case today in most countries outside the West).
You say: "The "him" is a giveaway as well. How about locking her in?
Until very recently, the English language used "he/man" as masculine generics, ie. "he" was used to refer to any person - in ordinary language, in legal texts etc; there simply was no other generally accepted form (when referred to a 'person' - unless it was clear that the person was a female). Yes, this was extremely misogynistic - and this has been a major area of activism by feminists. But Shaw was simply using the language of his time; he should not be faulted for this.
i never want to have a wedding of my own and i wish everyone else would stop doing that
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The article touches upon solely the feminist criticism of marriage, while many argue that in modern times women benefit from marriage more than men do, and it's men who begin increasingly avoiding marriage due to the easier availability of sex. Women also tend to get half of the common wealth and possessions after divorce, an undesirable perspective for many men. There are many similar reasons that are often given by men - it would be nice to add a section to the article about criticisms raised by men.
Although it may sound like a conspiracy theory, many people say, criticism of a maggiage together with intentional raising of individualism and supported with corresponding law acts may be used to fight against overpopulation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.67.163.43 ( talk) 21:25, 21 April 2022 (UTC)