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There's no section about Russian HRW criticism. HRW had a big blackout on Tskhinvali bombings and had a full coverage on Gori region. SkyBon Talk\ Contributions 08:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
http://thebricspost.com/hrw-report-on-russia-is-clearly-biased/#.UgPcY4WfvLY
-- MusicGeek101 ( talk) 18:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
To be honest, I think that probably 70-80% of the criticism in this article is non-notable (including the 'responses'). Unfortunately since it is verifiable and people don't want to delete it, and I don't have the inclination to argue, we are stuck with it. As are stuck with it, it is better in a separate article as to have it in the main article would put undue weight on the criticism. - Francis Tyers · 20:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Trying to maintain a list for those who don't want to go through all of the content below. Feel free to debate these or add your own:
This should then imply a list of goals to get the tag off. We need to establish a basic consensus on:
This is just my stab at it, and everybody probably has their own take on it. So just write what you think below this. -- 75.46.80.104 13:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
HRW has also been criticized for anti-India bias. I have re-sectioned the criticism with anti-semitism on one section and anti-India in another section.Iunderstand that a debate may be progressing regarding the neutrality of the section so I have kept the tag. If the debators wish to include these edits in the debate then please do so and I would be happy to participate. Hkelkar 06:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
. On the basis of that, I'd say the balance of evidence is heavily on you to prove that your edits are neutral. Mostlyharmless 21:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)And yes, HRW is a terrorist front.My opinions are my own and I certainly won't enter them into the article(s) unless I can source them in a neutral narrative, but HRW is definitely a cabal of terrorists who should be hanged from lampposts
. You've come in, after declaring hatred for HRW, and made substantial edits that only represent one controversial and disputed perspective. Baseless tantrums? After seeing the evidence produced in the request for arbitration against you, I think that claim is a bit rich. Mostlyharmless 00:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)All Wikipedia articles and other user-facing content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.
Yatindra Bhatnagar, chief editor of "International Opinion", has criticized Human Rights Watch representatives and those of related organizations of having an anti-India bias with regards to their reports of communal riots in India between Hindus and Muslims, particularly in reference to the 2002 Gujarat violence. He writes that, instead of trying to heal the wounds of such incidents, organizations like Human Rights Watch focus disproportionately on blaming Hindus exclusively for the incident and trying to deflect attention from the violence perpetrated by Islamists in the Godhra Train Burning that precipitated the riots. In particular, he criticizes Human Rights Watch representative Smita Narula and her colleagues for providing a "blatantly one-sided" account of events and dismissing his concerns to that effect [1].
In addition, the reports on the Gujarat riots compiled by Human Rights Watch have been criticized by Arvin Bahl of Princeton University as "one-sided" and "biased". He claims that the reports generally "are based on half-truths, distortions and sometimes outright falsehoods". He points out that Human Rights Watch's claims about the Bharatiya Janata Party advocating a Hindu Nation as its core ideology are false. He further says that his analysis of the reports accuse the Gujarat government for planning the riots but do not provide any evidence to back those assertions. He also criticizes Human Rights Watch's labeling of the attacks on Hindus by Muslims during the riots as "retaliatory". In his analysis he states that while he does not deny that Hindu extremists were responsible for the riots, he "objectively analyze[s] the complexity of communal conflict in India and avoid[s] the generalizations associated with Human Rights Watch reports." [2].
South Asia Analysis Group is a non profit non commercial think tank that appears to be modeleld on the Middle Eastern think tanks of the US government.The objective of the group is to advance strategic analysis and contribute to the expansion of knowledge of Indian and International security and promote public understanding. In so doing, the SAAG seeks to address the decision makers, strategic planners, academics and the media in South Asia and the world at large.
reference to saag by UColumbia: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl/govt.html
The google search that shows numerous refs to the organization, none of them negative:
http://www.google.com/search?q=South+Asia+analysis+group&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a I will start discussion in 24 hrs per agreement with mostly harmless.Please peruse this information and know all you can about SAAG. Hkelkar 01:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Quite aside from the question of whether they belong in a separate article, there are other problems with the criticism section. Some of the same information is presented more than once.
In fact, even paragraph 1 is quite misleading as it gives the impression of a chorus of independent criticisms, when what is actually cited is based almost entirely on two sources - NGO Monitor's studies and the allegations about the Durban conference.
I think paragraph 1 should be reworded, while 2,3,5, and 10 should be deleted entirely. If that were done I'd be willing for the section to remain in this page and not a sub-article. Tyronen 21:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Another problem:I think it should be noted that NGO Monitor belongs to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, which charges itself with the purpose of "the need to present Israel's case in the wake of the renewed Palestinian violence." The wording throughout the criticisms section lists the criticisms without what seem like NPOV qualifiers. Would a correct way to address my grievances be to start a section entitled "Established Credibility", "Accomplishments", etc. and then cite numerous academics and media outlets that agree with me? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.249.103.28 (
talk •
contribs) 23:05, 23 August 2006
HRW has just come out against its accusers, notably the ADL and NGOmonitor, saying that their criticism lack any attempt at factual rebuttal, and that their criticisms amount to a claim that Israel should be above the rules of war. The document can be found [ http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/30/isrlpa14094.htm here]. 125.237.74.41 23:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It's about as long as the rest of the article. The criticism of HRW definitely isn't that important to a neutral conversation about the topic of the article, especially when all of the criticism is related just to the Middle East and Israel. Maybe you guys should consider making a new article about this? 15:40, 23 August 2006 68.249.103.28
I wrote the first, original criticism section for this wikipedia article. After watching Ashley Y attempt to slip in pro-HRW and anti-Israel edits for about a month, I stopped watching the article. Needless to say, it's been trashed. One example of clear POV that no one seems willing to correct is the introduction to the criticism section:
As an organization that explicitly criticizes governments and human rights abusers around the world, Human Rights Watch's reports are often condemned by governments and interested parties on all sides of a conflict. But journalists, academics and policy-makers have relied on the organization for sober, in-depth reporting for more than two decades. Human Rights Watch has been criticized as having an anti-Israel bias--but is often similarly attacked in the Arab world as having a pro-Israeli bias. The organization's research on Israel, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority is a fraction of its global work.
This reads like a disclaimer over the criticism section. It attempts to explain away the criticism as being the result of "interested parties." It may have a place in the article, but not at the top of the criticism section. It belongs in the response to criticism section, since it's one of HRW's big excuses for why it receives so much criticism. The fact that "journalists, academics, and policy-makers" have relied upon it is another attempt to downplay the criticism. The fact is, journalists, academics, and policy-makers have also criticized it. Thats what belongs in the criticism section - it's criticism. Not excuses for it.
I also noticed that people went through and removed accusations against HRW from politicians like Ana Palacio and Shimon Peres. I don't know why people said that they "couldn't find the sources" since the sources were clearly linked to. They'll be put back in.
I'll also replace quotations and aspects of the criticism that were removed or watered-down to gloss over HRW's poor track record.
-- ARoyal 04:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm reading some of the sources and now have a few problems with the criticisms section. I think a few edits are necessary for clarity:
1) Anne Bayefsky never "stated that there was an anti-Israel and anti-Semitic agenda", rather they "still has a lot of explaining to do".
2)The linked source for Isi Liebler doesn't seem to go to the right page. I can't find any occurences of Human Rights Watch on that page.
3)The CNN article you are citing also says "Some other international human rights groups who were part of the NGO forum, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, moved to distance themselves from the declaration" and a quote: Reed Brody, executive director of the New York-based Human Rights Watch, said: 'Israel has committed serious crimes against Palestinian people but it is simply not accurate to use the word genocide and to equate Zionism with racism ... it is now a matter of damage control.'"
So at this point I'd like to change the Bayefsky and Shimon Peres wording, as well as find the right Liebler source. I'm going to wait awhile (probably around a day) to edit as a matter of good faith, and I figure if we talk then maybe we can find an edit we both agree with. --
YoYoDa1
21:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Despite many Jewish financial supporters, board members and staff, Human Rights Watch has been criticized by human rights activists, non-governmental organizations, politicians, and the media as having an anti-Semitic and anti-Israel bias.
All of the debate in this article is around the criticism section, so I'm going to move the disputed tag there accordingly. -- Nosfartu 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
References
Was she really suggesting that anti-Semitism is more important then other human rights issues or was she suggesting that anti-Semitism received little attention as a human rights issue even though it's important? Nil Einne 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is clearly missing this section. Why haven't we addressed directly what we're all thinking but no one is saying? Human Rights watch is biased against genociders. It's also expressed a strong bias against people and governments who torture, who suppress political dissidents, and who deny rights to minority populations. Let's face it, Human Rights Watch is biased against those who violate human rights. This terrible secret agenda needs to be published for Wiki readers everywhere to learn about. Mjgilbert 15:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
In 2005 Isi Leibler, author of The Case for Israel, wrote an editorial archived at Campus Watch. In his archived editorial, Leibler asserted that Human Rights Watch is among the groups that “have long track records of bias and employing double standards in relation to Israel.”[9] Isi Leibler did not write The Case for Israel, Alan Dershowitz did. The quoted article is an editorial by Isi Leibler, a journalist.
To the interested: an article related to this, Human rights groups and the Middle East, is currently being considered for deletion. You may refer to the article for more information. This is intended to be neutral and a friendly notice. -- Nosfartu 06:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:RS: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." NGO Monitor, an Israeli NGO with the stated aim of stopping "certain self-declared ' humanitarian NGOs'" from promoting agendas which are perceived as anti-Israel, is a highly political website with an open agenda and does not independently meet the criteria for being a reliable source. If its material can be found in a reliable third-party publication then the material should still be used in the article though.-- 76.214.115.168 ( talk) 23:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Since HRW supports reproductive rights, the topic of pro-life/pro-choice opposition should very likely come up among ideological criticisms of the institution, they already exist, I think. ADM ( talk) ( talk) 12:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
In this edit, I removed the section due to WP:RS violation. The Hellenic News is not a WP:RS - it's a tiny publication, and the article in question doesn't really say much substantial, aside from criticizing HRW for not covering the areas that the author wanted covered. I see nothing in the article that is really of quality or verifiability to be worth including.
In this edit, I removed the section, again on the basis of WP:RS (and others) - the Asian Tribune is not a reliable source. The Asian Tribune is a tiny online newspaper published by an expatriate living in Sweden, and NGO Monitor is an Israeli partisan group that defends Israel against its repeated run-ins with various human rights groups over Israel's human rights record. The Asian Tribune source in question is a five-paragraph editorial in the online paper that serves as an introduction to a reprint of an editorial written by NGO Monitor's Executive Director that appears in the New York Sun. This is hardly an appropriate source to be using in a Wikipedia article.
Additionally, there was a partial sentence left dangling in the section. Clearly, User:Historicist simply did a copy-and-paste of his Amnesty International edit, and stuck it here, simply changing the name of the organization being criticized. (hint: search for the sentence he left here - "as part of the latter")
I believe these are strong enough reasons to warrant their removal. GrizzledOldMan ( talk) 08:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This edit doesn't really make much sense to me. NGO Monitor and the Anti-Defamation League are quite well documented to be pro-Israeli. I see no reason why this was taken out. I'll leave it for a few days so folks can comment, before I come back and restore it. GrizzledOldMan ( talk) 08:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Although the source states that those who wrote the letter are "experts", from what I have seen, a large number of them do not have any direct relationship to research on Latin America or Venezuela. Although the source portrays them as experts, I am not sure that some of the signers would portray themselves that way. I like the way it's worded in the main HRW article: "scholars", who are not necessarily experts on the particular area. Awickert ( talk) 02:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
...Well that's more than half the references, and that's enough. This article is bullshit. Noloop ( talk) 02:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I have removed material that does not meet our standards on verifiability and sourcing or undue weight. The following material was taken out:
Point 2: it's not so much that the topic is highly politicised, it's that it is highly globalised, by the nature of HRW, so that we have a fundamentally difficult problem of documented systemic bias in the English language wikipedia. The problem is not so much trying to be especially "strict" with "policy" - it's more a case of reading WP:BIAS and thinking about it and maybe following some of the suggestions provided there. E.g. make a special effort to find reliable sources from non-Western countries, go to project pages of various countries around the world on the en.wikipedia and invite people from there - who are likely to be multilingual and familiar with local reliable sources - to help contribute to this particular page. There are other suggestions on that page too.
Point 3: Including any responses by HRW is reasonable, buy i don't see any particular reason for HRW "to have the last word". Remember, the criticism starts with HRW documenting alleged HR violations in country X. Then (sometimes) governments or academics from country X respond. And then HRW may or may not respond. And then the same sources from X may respond. Sooner or later one party will see no point continuing the argument further, but i do not understand why we should make an "extra effort" for the party with the last word to be HRW. What does that have to do with NPOV?
Incidentally, i don't think that the effort to find HRW responses will be very great - it should be quite easy to find. What would be more difficult to find is the criticisms from the population of the planet Earth, most of whom do not live in the West, are not technically oriented, and do not have internet access, in statistical contrast to the demographics of en.wikipedians. Boud ( talk) 20:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Including any criticism you can find will immediately violate
WP:WEIGHT. There is no point in mentioning every disagreement anyone has ever expressed with HRW over any issue.
Noloop (
talk)
15:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the notability discussions that have taken place here, a few important points are:
For both Haiti and Venezuela, as i stated above, it should be easy to find HRW responses, if they made them.
In this edit, User:GHcool removed a sourced paragraph in which HRW claims that it is accused of being "soft" in Israeli HR violations, and also inserted a section relating to HRW's stance on al-Qaeda re-education camps in Saudi Arabia.
Probably other editors had the same idea as me, which is why the edit was reverted, and a later editor explained This article is about criticism of HRW, not criticism of the [Kingdom of Saudi Arabia].
i will now restore the sourced paragraph in which HRW claims that it is accused of being "soft" in Israeli HR violations, because i fail to see how this can be controversial - it's HRW itself that claims that a claim about it being biased exists.
i suggest we have a discussion about the stance-against paragraph, in case GHcool or someone else disagrees with "This article is about criticism of HRW, not criticism of the [Kingdom of Saudi Arabia]": Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
See the above. Does someone see a justification for including the "stance-on" paragraph? Please let's use this as one small example of building consensus! i can see that CSM may have been hoping that readers would infer that this is a criticism of HRW. However, this is OR and not valid for the article. CSM does not say, "The Christian Science Monitor strongly condemns HRW for its criticism of the Saudi re-education camps... and is appalled that HRW is being unfaithful to the defence of the Fatherland" or something similar.
Are there any arguments for keeping the section? Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Side comment: there seem to be very few wikipedia entries on reeducation camps, under that name, in general - HRW has criticised reeducation camps in PRChina and there is an article on Vietnamese reeducation camps, but other reeducation camps are probably classified as prisons. Note: the former is HRW criticising PRChina reeducation camps, not PRChina criticising HRW for this criticism. Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Just for convenience for people not wishing to check through a possibly long future revision history, in this version there is an attempt to NPOV the overall structure of the Arab-Israeli conflict related criticisms of HRW section. i have not included the "Stance against teaching suspected terrorists the value of tolerance" section as a subsection, since IMHO it has no chance of being accepted by consensus (see above).
Also, for clarity, here's a repeat of my comment above: If we as editors of this article cannot constructively work together, we could add the {{sanctions}} tag to the top of this talk page - see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Final_decision and Wikipedia:General_sanctions. This is not the first article related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in en.wikipedia history. In the interests of minimising the need for us to be "supervised", i suggest we try to avoid this need. i am not an administrator (for anyone curious), and in any case, administrators implementing the sanctions rules would have to be non-editors of this article, and, i guess, non-editors of Arab-Israeli conflict related articles in general and would have to not have any COI's (conflicts of interest). Boud ( talk) 23:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the editorial difficulties on this article and the two AfD's, i suggest that we wait a few weeks before attempting to summarise the content in the lead/introduction, which at present is blank. Otherwise, we will waste a lot of energy over it. At the moment, something like a geographical organisation seems to me to provide a reasonably neutral categorisation of different criticisms.
My suggested moratorium would end on 23:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC) + 14 days. After that, we can follow WP:LEAD for hints on writing the lead/introduction. Preparatory work before the end of the moratorium would be to put 'name="keywordsofreference"' type labels in the references, so that the most relevant ones can be re-used in the lead/introduction.
Any objections? Boud ( talk) 23:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the following sections (again):
I also have undue weight concerns about "Haiti 2004 coup d'etat." The only source in here that mentions HRW is a ZMag article. This is a rather fringey publication; it seems unreasonable to justify a whole paragraph based on it alone. I'm also not sure that Counterpunch is a good source in "Anti-Arab-League or pro-Israel bias". This is precisely why the article should have been deleted. As long as it exists, it will continue to be filled up with poorly sourced, POV crap. *** Crotalus *** 13:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The rule is you don't do anything against consensus--add or remove. You are adding without consensus. So, it is correct to revert to a somewhat stable version until some consensus is reached. Noloop ( talk) 22:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The organization was founded to watch human rights abuses in the former Soviet Empire. When did it start employing marxists? how did this come about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.71.197 ( talk) 08:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted all this material that has been added in disregard for the concerns of User:Crotalus horridus and myself. You are expected to work toward consensus. That means when you know material is opposed, and reasons have been given for the opposition, you make a serious effort to negotiate those principles on the Talk page. You do that before continuing to pile on contentious material. You also don't take advantage of a block to shove what you want into an article. The conerns about this article have been outlined above; the additions have been reverted by myself, they've been reverted by Crotalus horridus.
Again, the article as a whole is POV-fork. It just provides a platform for bashing an organization. Several editors expressed the concern about a POV-fork in the deletion discussion, and it needs to be addressed. It's been proposed that fairest way to discuss these criticisms in the context of HRW as a whole, so we should work toward merging it back to the main article. Taking criticisms out of the main article takes them out of context. Please take the time to address Crotalus's suggestion that our goal should be a merge, and the guidelines I gave above that seem like common sense to me. Noloop ( talk) 21:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Consensus discussions should always be attempts to convince others, using reasons. When a discussion breaks down to a mere polarized shouting match, there is no possibility of consensus, and the quality of the article will suffer.
That said, consensus is not simple agreement; a handful of editors agreeing on something does not constitute a consensus, except in the thinnest sense. Consensus is a broader process where specific points of article content are considered in terms of the article as a whole.....
....In determining consensus, consider the strength and quality of the arguments, including the evolution of final positions, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace if available. Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and their (strict) logic may outweigh the "logic" (point of view) of the majority.
...you are directly acting in opposition to these principles.
Noloop (
talk)
22:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
"Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality and verifiability in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on." the material is verifiable. You shgould not delete material wiht out forst achiving consensus, now I am willing to reset the page back to the state it was in on 26 July and then discuse each subject you object to in turn, but please refrain from just mass deletion of material that is sourced. Slatersteven ( talk) 22:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
<-This article has been retained following a deletion nomination so why not accept that and move on ? Repeating arguments used in that nomination won't acheive anything. Many of the criticisms here are well sourced and made by notable people who are prominent in their field (their field often being the field of relentlessly criticisng HRW). If the information complies with WP:V it should not be removed without a good reason and after discussions. If there are concerns about undue weight/npov coming from sources with extreme views then criticism must be balanced by presenting the opposing views. Working towards merging it back to the main article is impractical because the criticism of HRW won't stop. It's okay to have an article about fringe pseudoscience subjects like Intelligent Design and describe the sunject in detail. It wouldn't make sense to merge that into the Evolution article. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Sean.hoyland, I have two concerns:
This 144-page report documents the arbitrary arrest and detention of individuals for vaguely defined crimes or behavior that is not inherently criminal. Once arrested, suspects often face prolonged solitary confinement, ill-treatment, forced confessions, and are denied a lawyer at crucial stages of interrogation and trial.
whereas the blogs title is "HRW Sez: Don't Teach Terrorists Tolerance". Isn't this twisting of facts? Imad marie ( talk) 07:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
It's ironic that the user who is pushing for the paragraph, GHCool, has not made a single post to the talk page, just reverting back the paragraph.
There is no such thing as "reliable source for Goldberg's opinion", it's either RS or not, and it's not. I will remove the section now until there is consensus to insert it. Imad marie ( talk) 16:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't commented on this issue yet because I see valid points on boths sides and was very ambivalent about it. I kept revisiting though, and I think there is a lot of weight to the fact that was pointed out by Sean.hoyland: "It's a throwaway one line quip by Goldberg rather than a serious analysis of the issue." Since the article deals with serious and complex issues, it's incumbent on us to give it serious treatment. At this point I don't see that Goldberg's comment qualifies as such, and think the article would be stronger without it. Having said that, I would change stance and favor including it, if there were additional sources with stronger arguments. Doc Tropics 22:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
i have restored the subsection title Anti-Arab-League or pro-Israel bias because as most of us should surely know, the Arab–Israeli conflict is a major source of conflict in the world and in wikipedia, so we need to be very careful to NPOV things. The restored section includes: Jonathan Cook's criticism of HRW, HRW's response, and Cook's counter-response. If HRW has a further counter-response, then someone please add it.
i'll again repeat my above comment: If we as editors of this article cannot constructively work together, we could add the {{sanctions}} tag to the top of this talk page - see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Final_decision and Wikipedia:General_sanctions. This is not the first article related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in en.wikipedia history. People interested in having the sanctions tag should probably read the links and see what it involves. i suggest we try to work things out step by step and avoid needing any form of "external" mediation. Boud ( talk) 22:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC), Boud ( talk) 23:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that any response from HRW to allagations should be put after the accusation. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Stork has written a rebuttal to the Ma’Ariv article if anyone wants to incorporate it. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the section for now until someone has established that Arvin Bahl is a reliable and notable source on these issues. Perhaps that has already been done but it wasn't immediately obvious from previous discussions. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I reverted you again Slatersteven until WP:V compliance has been established. I'm assuming South Asia Analysis Group are considered to be an RS but since they don't endorse Bahl's article and it's a opinion piece, WP:V compliance relies on establishing that Bahl himself is considered to be an RS. Has he been published in academic journals, media RS's etc ?
The fact that he apparently wrote it as an undergrad rules it out for me but that's just my view. He sometimes writes a blog for the Huffington Post. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
i've dropped the "pro-US" part of the Latin America section title, putting Allegations of bias concerning Latin America instead. It does seem to me that most of the criticisms (Haiti, Venezuela, Honduras) are inferring that HRW seems to have recently (last 5 years) been too closely aligned with US foreign policy than it should be as an independent, non-governmental organisation, but at least in the sourced information we have in the text of the section at the moment, we don't have pro-US bias stated overtly in all cases. E.g. for Honduras, the authors of the criticism of HRW and appeal to HRW don't overtly say "You seem to be supporting US foreign policy". That does seem to be implied, but not stated outright. We do have a direct statement by Robert Naiman of Just Foreign Policy regarding pro-US-govt bias, which is relevant in the intro to the section, but i don't think it's strong enough to keep "pro-US" bias in the section title. Boud ( talk) 21:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Apart from this recent edit that removed sourced material and was reverted by another editor, we do seem to have approached something resembling NPOV+RS+NOR that seems to be stable. Congratulations to everyone participating, but presumably this page will still require regular watching. Boud ( talk) 00:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
i removed the old lead/introduction, since it had almost nothing to do with the content of the article. HRW's own summary of criticism against it cannot be expected to be a particularly good NPOV summary of that part of knowledge. We do not have any discussion of selection bias in the article, nor ideological bias. Geography is not ideology. i did suggest above that we wait a few weeks before trying to write a lead/introduction that summarises the content in line with the suggestions at WP:LEAD, since i didn't see much point trying to summarise it before it had stabilised.
Anyway, i've mostly picked out the refs that have name= tags. i suggest we avoid putting any refs in the lead/intro that are not already present in the main sections of the text, i.e. we only use repeat references. This seems to be consistent with the recommendations in WP:LEAD. i also think it's safer to err on the side of more (repeat) references in the lead/intro rather than too few, though we shouldn't include all of them.
i started with a 2-paragraph structure. One with a list of the criticisms based on the geographical structure of the main body of the article, and a second with HRW's responses, for those geographical areas where it did respond. The Arab–Israeli conflict occupies a lot of ink and bytes, so in the 1st paragraph that got split into a sentence of its own, for clarity.
An interesting side effect here is that it becomes clear that either HRW did not respond to the bias claims for Africa, or we have not found its responses yet. Boud ( talk) 01:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Lets have an RS for this claim, and if possible one that links it to his views on Israle. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Extra, is this even the same person? Slatersteven ( talk) 17:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
<- Boud, with respect the main problem is Historicist behaving like a POV warrior. There's a time and a place for assume good faith and this isn't it. It's patently obvious what is going on here to anyone who has worked in the I-P conflict area and the discretionary sanctions are quite clear that this kind of activity needs to stop. The policies are crystal clear about edits that potentially affect the reputation of living people and organizations. High quality sources and full WP:V compliance are mandatory. Historicist, must slow down and engage in gaining consensus. If he does not, admin involvement is entirely appropriate. Yes, this is a claim that HRW are run by Nazis (I'm exaggerating for comic effect obviously) and it should be treated with the caution that it deserves. There shoud be red flags waving all over the place in cases like this. Obviously Wikipedia isn't an outlet for anything that appears on partisan/fringe/extremist sites and blogs by people with an axe to grind. If the criticism is notable it will appear in high quality sources that are accepted as RS and we can discuss those. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
There don't seem to have been any objections to the sanctions tag, and in any case, part of the article Criticism of HRW necessarily relates to the Arab–Israeli conflict, so we automatically come under the sanctions structure, it would seem to me. So i've put the tag up the top.
As i said in a comment a few sections above, my impression is that the information that Historicist wishes to include in the article probably is relevant, notable and source-able, but editors will not reach a consensus on that through excessive reverts. Discussion on the talk page would (should) have more chance of achieving consensus. i thought i saw somewhere that "uninvolved administrators" could impose a WP:1RR rule on difficult editors, but i can't find the specific place in the arbitration texts. In any case, here is a description of the sanctions, which you can find by following the links in the box anyway. Just for the record, i'm not an administrator, and i have made some edits to the article, so both facts disqualify me from the set of people who can "meta-intervene" here. Boud ( talk) 22:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Somebody consistently published in the JPost and US News and World Report cannot be described as fringe and you cannot remove responses that you do not like. Take a look at WP:NPOV. This is not a personal playground to attack whoever you want without any response. nableezy - 04:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone quoted an IPS article as saying that David Bernstein apologized for saying that HRW didn't raise Saudi abuses on its fundraising trip to Saudi Arabia. That's inaccurate. No one from IPS ever spoke to David Bernstein (me). IPS instead butchered an original blog post that I wrote: "For my part, if Ms. Whitson did indeed criticize Saudi human rights abuses during her trip, I apologize for suggesting otherwise." http://www.volokh.com/posts/1247622550.shtml
NOTE THE "IF"
Given that Whitson has refused to release any transcript, video, or audio of her remarks, I have no idea what she raised or didn't raise, other than her anti-Israel quotes noted in the Arab News. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.172.198 ( talk) 14:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a big difference between Saudis being "aware" of HRW's criticisms of the kindgom's human rights practices, and being at least as upfront about those criticisms when looking for support there as HRW was about its hostility to Israel and its supporters. HRW's claim is that it treats all nations the same, not that it modulates its criticisms based on the audience.
I think that criticism of HRW by member of HRW board of directors Helena Cobban is significant, as is ceiticism by an NGO like [NGO Monitor. If you agree, do put the material back in. Historicist ( talk) 21:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
References
I started a new section. there are allegations of bias from the partisans of several nations. However, there are also allegations of methodological inadequacies and errors, which ought to be separated from the allegations of bias. Historicist ( talk) 14:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
is not a reliable source. See here, here, and here. nableezy - 23:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This section seems to suffer undue weight. Comments or suggestions?-- 69.208.131.94 ( talk) 00:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Howto: this is a point-wise list for helping to guide discussion in order to converge on possible compacting (compression) of the Anti-Israel/pro-Arab-League section of the article. The problem is concern that the section dominates the article out of proportion to its importance. Please add/remove/clarify/sort/re-structure this list of points and add longer explanations/comments below. Boud ( talk) 20:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
"bla" is just an example that obviously needs to be modified. Boud ( talk) 20:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
And I disagree, I think it is important to focus on it. AS HRW seems to ignore terrorist attacks against Israel and take an anti Israeli view on their self defense policy.
Tannim1 (
talk)
08:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Did you to WSJ link I supplied? It clkearly state the dispropinate HRW complaints and artciles I believe 28 for Isreal to 2 for the Palestinians. Tannim1 ( talk) 19:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not a Wikipedia guru, but it strikes me as absurd that if Helen Cobban (or Noah Pollack, or Gerald Steinberg of NGO Monitor) is quoted in a newspaper, the fact that it's in a newspaper makes the quotation a reliable source, even though newspaper quotations are often inaccurate and even more often incomplete or out of context. But if the same person made the same remark on the same subject on his or her blog, then the source is "not reliable," even though it's straight from the horse's mouth. That's just nonsense. The reliability has to be the person, not where his opinion is published.
link it to the page and reduce it I think is a boog idea. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Why was the section on anti-semitism removed? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
pro-HRW and anti-HRW. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 13:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm totally confused by the following:
I can't work out what this is trying to say! Is this criticism of Human Rights Watch? It does seem to be... can anyone shed any light on this? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 12:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Anyone mind if I change state of Israel to a capitalised State of Israel? I know it's a small thing, but it's the actual proper name. Also, there is a State of Palestine referred to as well, but that isn't yet even recognised by the UN as being an actual country yet (and it gets to be capitalised) and I'm not sure they've adopted State of Palestine as their name --- Correction, I now see they did in 1988 (they really should pick a better name than a silly Roman one meant to insult the Jews imo, but that's just me, maybe State of al-Quds or Republic of al-Quds). Hpelgrift ( talk) 18:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
sean - i wrote the facts, not POV. it makes no difference that hrw has been publishing reports about libya for years, as you say. what comes out is that the hrw head of the middle east division actually felt that reforms in libya were taking place two years ago, and only now, acknowledges her mistake. not sure why you feel this is not appropriate. Soosim ( talk) 17:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
There is talk about Allegations of bias against India but the article is missing that section, did someone delete it? -- Neelkamala ( talk) 09:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
I've removed an old POV template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 03:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Sean.hoyland! Thanks for your feedback, I recently started editing on Wiki and I am still learning the ropes! I took into account your comments and re-wrote the information below so the wording is more appropriate, what do you think?
I went to the link you provided, I thought that I would find a HRW written report on FGM in Somalia, but it's a policy paper citing a WHO study that mentioned that FGM occurred in African countries, it's not a full report from HRW on FGM in Somalia. SimplesC ( talk) 21:16, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
References
The Pro-Israel bias section has been repeatedly blanked. As another editor stated when restoring the information, "We have Camera and the like in the article. Either activist sources from BOTH sides...or none". Please stop the blatant POV-pushing being attempted by blanking this information. Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 15:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Yeah. When HRW released this total bullshit report on Egypt, the government criticized them. When I checked the HRW article, I saw no section on Egypt, so I thought, "Why not?"
As a result, I added this new section. Didn't you guys feel there was a missing section? Zakawer ( talk) 13:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
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@ Odalcet: please, before removing this content again [8], discuss why you do not agree with it. Maybe we can find a better wording. The Venezuelan government is not a impartial actor here because the report of the HRW is about Chavez administration. The point of view of the accused HRW investigators involved has to be taken into account.-- ReyHahn ( talk) 06:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
There is some online criticism of HRW's position on recent (2019/2020) developments in Bolivia, but none of them are great quality sources, ex: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/20/human-rights-watch-bolivia-coup-massacre/ - the responses to this: https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1305186958990172161
Are these enough for a new section? Does anybody have a better sources? Miserlou ( talk) 05:00, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Similar to Bolivia, there's criticism of their activities in Colombia: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/did-human-rights-watch-sabotage-colombias-peace-agreement/
Miserlou ( talk) 05:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
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There's no section about Russian HRW criticism. HRW had a big blackout on Tskhinvali bombings and had a full coverage on Gori region. SkyBon Talk\ Contributions 08:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
http://thebricspost.com/hrw-report-on-russia-is-clearly-biased/#.UgPcY4WfvLY
-- MusicGeek101 ( talk) 18:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
To be honest, I think that probably 70-80% of the criticism in this article is non-notable (including the 'responses'). Unfortunately since it is verifiable and people don't want to delete it, and I don't have the inclination to argue, we are stuck with it. As are stuck with it, it is better in a separate article as to have it in the main article would put undue weight on the criticism. - Francis Tyers · 20:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Trying to maintain a list for those who don't want to go through all of the content below. Feel free to debate these or add your own:
This should then imply a list of goals to get the tag off. We need to establish a basic consensus on:
This is just my stab at it, and everybody probably has their own take on it. So just write what you think below this. -- 75.46.80.104 13:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
HRW has also been criticized for anti-India bias. I have re-sectioned the criticism with anti-semitism on one section and anti-India in another section.Iunderstand that a debate may be progressing regarding the neutrality of the section so I have kept the tag. If the debators wish to include these edits in the debate then please do so and I would be happy to participate. Hkelkar 06:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
. On the basis of that, I'd say the balance of evidence is heavily on you to prove that your edits are neutral. Mostlyharmless 21:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)And yes, HRW is a terrorist front.My opinions are my own and I certainly won't enter them into the article(s) unless I can source them in a neutral narrative, but HRW is definitely a cabal of terrorists who should be hanged from lampposts
. You've come in, after declaring hatred for HRW, and made substantial edits that only represent one controversial and disputed perspective. Baseless tantrums? After seeing the evidence produced in the request for arbitration against you, I think that claim is a bit rich. Mostlyharmless 00:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)All Wikipedia articles and other user-facing content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.
Yatindra Bhatnagar, chief editor of "International Opinion", has criticized Human Rights Watch representatives and those of related organizations of having an anti-India bias with regards to their reports of communal riots in India between Hindus and Muslims, particularly in reference to the 2002 Gujarat violence. He writes that, instead of trying to heal the wounds of such incidents, organizations like Human Rights Watch focus disproportionately on blaming Hindus exclusively for the incident and trying to deflect attention from the violence perpetrated by Islamists in the Godhra Train Burning that precipitated the riots. In particular, he criticizes Human Rights Watch representative Smita Narula and her colleagues for providing a "blatantly one-sided" account of events and dismissing his concerns to that effect [1].
In addition, the reports on the Gujarat riots compiled by Human Rights Watch have been criticized by Arvin Bahl of Princeton University as "one-sided" and "biased". He claims that the reports generally "are based on half-truths, distortions and sometimes outright falsehoods". He points out that Human Rights Watch's claims about the Bharatiya Janata Party advocating a Hindu Nation as its core ideology are false. He further says that his analysis of the reports accuse the Gujarat government for planning the riots but do not provide any evidence to back those assertions. He also criticizes Human Rights Watch's labeling of the attacks on Hindus by Muslims during the riots as "retaliatory". In his analysis he states that while he does not deny that Hindu extremists were responsible for the riots, he "objectively analyze[s] the complexity of communal conflict in India and avoid[s] the generalizations associated with Human Rights Watch reports." [2].
South Asia Analysis Group is a non profit non commercial think tank that appears to be modeleld on the Middle Eastern think tanks of the US government.The objective of the group is to advance strategic analysis and contribute to the expansion of knowledge of Indian and International security and promote public understanding. In so doing, the SAAG seeks to address the decision makers, strategic planners, academics and the media in South Asia and the world at large.
reference to saag by UColumbia: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl/govt.html
The google search that shows numerous refs to the organization, none of them negative:
http://www.google.com/search?q=South+Asia+analysis+group&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a I will start discussion in 24 hrs per agreement with mostly harmless.Please peruse this information and know all you can about SAAG. Hkelkar 01:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Quite aside from the question of whether they belong in a separate article, there are other problems with the criticism section. Some of the same information is presented more than once.
In fact, even paragraph 1 is quite misleading as it gives the impression of a chorus of independent criticisms, when what is actually cited is based almost entirely on two sources - NGO Monitor's studies and the allegations about the Durban conference.
I think paragraph 1 should be reworded, while 2,3,5, and 10 should be deleted entirely. If that were done I'd be willing for the section to remain in this page and not a sub-article. Tyronen 21:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Another problem:I think it should be noted that NGO Monitor belongs to the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, which charges itself with the purpose of "the need to present Israel's case in the wake of the renewed Palestinian violence." The wording throughout the criticisms section lists the criticisms without what seem like NPOV qualifiers. Would a correct way to address my grievances be to start a section entitled "Established Credibility", "Accomplishments", etc. and then cite numerous academics and media outlets that agree with me? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.249.103.28 (
talk •
contribs) 23:05, 23 August 2006
HRW has just come out against its accusers, notably the ADL and NGOmonitor, saying that their criticism lack any attempt at factual rebuttal, and that their criticisms amount to a claim that Israel should be above the rules of war. The document can be found [ http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/30/isrlpa14094.htm here]. 125.237.74.41 23:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It's about as long as the rest of the article. The criticism of HRW definitely isn't that important to a neutral conversation about the topic of the article, especially when all of the criticism is related just to the Middle East and Israel. Maybe you guys should consider making a new article about this? 15:40, 23 August 2006 68.249.103.28
I wrote the first, original criticism section for this wikipedia article. After watching Ashley Y attempt to slip in pro-HRW and anti-Israel edits for about a month, I stopped watching the article. Needless to say, it's been trashed. One example of clear POV that no one seems willing to correct is the introduction to the criticism section:
As an organization that explicitly criticizes governments and human rights abusers around the world, Human Rights Watch's reports are often condemned by governments and interested parties on all sides of a conflict. But journalists, academics and policy-makers have relied on the organization for sober, in-depth reporting for more than two decades. Human Rights Watch has been criticized as having an anti-Israel bias--but is often similarly attacked in the Arab world as having a pro-Israeli bias. The organization's research on Israel, Lebanon, and the Palestinian Authority is a fraction of its global work.
This reads like a disclaimer over the criticism section. It attempts to explain away the criticism as being the result of "interested parties." It may have a place in the article, but not at the top of the criticism section. It belongs in the response to criticism section, since it's one of HRW's big excuses for why it receives so much criticism. The fact that "journalists, academics, and policy-makers" have relied upon it is another attempt to downplay the criticism. The fact is, journalists, academics, and policy-makers have also criticized it. Thats what belongs in the criticism section - it's criticism. Not excuses for it.
I also noticed that people went through and removed accusations against HRW from politicians like Ana Palacio and Shimon Peres. I don't know why people said that they "couldn't find the sources" since the sources were clearly linked to. They'll be put back in.
I'll also replace quotations and aspects of the criticism that were removed or watered-down to gloss over HRW's poor track record.
-- ARoyal 04:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm reading some of the sources and now have a few problems with the criticisms section. I think a few edits are necessary for clarity:
1) Anne Bayefsky never "stated that there was an anti-Israel and anti-Semitic agenda", rather they "still has a lot of explaining to do".
2)The linked source for Isi Liebler doesn't seem to go to the right page. I can't find any occurences of Human Rights Watch on that page.
3)The CNN article you are citing also says "Some other international human rights groups who were part of the NGO forum, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, moved to distance themselves from the declaration" and a quote: Reed Brody, executive director of the New York-based Human Rights Watch, said: 'Israel has committed serious crimes against Palestinian people but it is simply not accurate to use the word genocide and to equate Zionism with racism ... it is now a matter of damage control.'"
So at this point I'd like to change the Bayefsky and Shimon Peres wording, as well as find the right Liebler source. I'm going to wait awhile (probably around a day) to edit as a matter of good faith, and I figure if we talk then maybe we can find an edit we both agree with. --
YoYoDa1
21:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Despite many Jewish financial supporters, board members and staff, Human Rights Watch has been criticized by human rights activists, non-governmental organizations, politicians, and the media as having an anti-Semitic and anti-Israel bias.
All of the debate in this article is around the criticism section, so I'm going to move the disputed tag there accordingly. -- Nosfartu 22:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
References
Was she really suggesting that anti-Semitism is more important then other human rights issues or was she suggesting that anti-Semitism received little attention as a human rights issue even though it's important? Nil Einne 01:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article is clearly missing this section. Why haven't we addressed directly what we're all thinking but no one is saying? Human Rights watch is biased against genociders. It's also expressed a strong bias against people and governments who torture, who suppress political dissidents, and who deny rights to minority populations. Let's face it, Human Rights Watch is biased against those who violate human rights. This terrible secret agenda needs to be published for Wiki readers everywhere to learn about. Mjgilbert 15:14, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
In 2005 Isi Leibler, author of The Case for Israel, wrote an editorial archived at Campus Watch. In his archived editorial, Leibler asserted that Human Rights Watch is among the groups that “have long track records of bias and employing double standards in relation to Israel.”[9] Isi Leibler did not write The Case for Israel, Alan Dershowitz did. The quoted article is an editorial by Isi Leibler, a journalist.
To the interested: an article related to this, Human rights groups and the Middle East, is currently being considered for deletion. You may refer to the article for more information. This is intended to be neutral and a friendly notice. -- Nosfartu 06:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
WP:RS: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." NGO Monitor, an Israeli NGO with the stated aim of stopping "certain self-declared ' humanitarian NGOs'" from promoting agendas which are perceived as anti-Israel, is a highly political website with an open agenda and does not independently meet the criteria for being a reliable source. If its material can be found in a reliable third-party publication then the material should still be used in the article though.-- 76.214.115.168 ( talk) 23:36, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Since HRW supports reproductive rights, the topic of pro-life/pro-choice opposition should very likely come up among ideological criticisms of the institution, they already exist, I think. ADM ( talk) ( talk) 12:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
In this edit, I removed the section due to WP:RS violation. The Hellenic News is not a WP:RS - it's a tiny publication, and the article in question doesn't really say much substantial, aside from criticizing HRW for not covering the areas that the author wanted covered. I see nothing in the article that is really of quality or verifiability to be worth including.
In this edit, I removed the section, again on the basis of WP:RS (and others) - the Asian Tribune is not a reliable source. The Asian Tribune is a tiny online newspaper published by an expatriate living in Sweden, and NGO Monitor is an Israeli partisan group that defends Israel against its repeated run-ins with various human rights groups over Israel's human rights record. The Asian Tribune source in question is a five-paragraph editorial in the online paper that serves as an introduction to a reprint of an editorial written by NGO Monitor's Executive Director that appears in the New York Sun. This is hardly an appropriate source to be using in a Wikipedia article.
Additionally, there was a partial sentence left dangling in the section. Clearly, User:Historicist simply did a copy-and-paste of his Amnesty International edit, and stuck it here, simply changing the name of the organization being criticized. (hint: search for the sentence he left here - "as part of the latter")
I believe these are strong enough reasons to warrant their removal. GrizzledOldMan ( talk) 08:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This edit doesn't really make much sense to me. NGO Monitor and the Anti-Defamation League are quite well documented to be pro-Israeli. I see no reason why this was taken out. I'll leave it for a few days so folks can comment, before I come back and restore it. GrizzledOldMan ( talk) 08:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Although the source states that those who wrote the letter are "experts", from what I have seen, a large number of them do not have any direct relationship to research on Latin America or Venezuela. Although the source portrays them as experts, I am not sure that some of the signers would portray themselves that way. I like the way it's worded in the main HRW article: "scholars", who are not necessarily experts on the particular area. Awickert ( talk) 02:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
...Well that's more than half the references, and that's enough. This article is bullshit. Noloop ( talk) 02:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I have removed material that does not meet our standards on verifiability and sourcing or undue weight. The following material was taken out:
Point 2: it's not so much that the topic is highly politicised, it's that it is highly globalised, by the nature of HRW, so that we have a fundamentally difficult problem of documented systemic bias in the English language wikipedia. The problem is not so much trying to be especially "strict" with "policy" - it's more a case of reading WP:BIAS and thinking about it and maybe following some of the suggestions provided there. E.g. make a special effort to find reliable sources from non-Western countries, go to project pages of various countries around the world on the en.wikipedia and invite people from there - who are likely to be multilingual and familiar with local reliable sources - to help contribute to this particular page. There are other suggestions on that page too.
Point 3: Including any responses by HRW is reasonable, buy i don't see any particular reason for HRW "to have the last word". Remember, the criticism starts with HRW documenting alleged HR violations in country X. Then (sometimes) governments or academics from country X respond. And then HRW may or may not respond. And then the same sources from X may respond. Sooner or later one party will see no point continuing the argument further, but i do not understand why we should make an "extra effort" for the party with the last word to be HRW. What does that have to do with NPOV?
Incidentally, i don't think that the effort to find HRW responses will be very great - it should be quite easy to find. What would be more difficult to find is the criticisms from the population of the planet Earth, most of whom do not live in the West, are not technically oriented, and do not have internet access, in statistical contrast to the demographics of en.wikipedians. Boud ( talk) 20:56, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Including any criticism you can find will immediately violate
WP:WEIGHT. There is no point in mentioning every disagreement anyone has ever expressed with HRW over any issue.
Noloop (
talk)
15:04, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the notability discussions that have taken place here, a few important points are:
For both Haiti and Venezuela, as i stated above, it should be easy to find HRW responses, if they made them.
In this edit, User:GHcool removed a sourced paragraph in which HRW claims that it is accused of being "soft" in Israeli HR violations, and also inserted a section relating to HRW's stance on al-Qaeda re-education camps in Saudi Arabia.
Probably other editors had the same idea as me, which is why the edit was reverted, and a later editor explained This article is about criticism of HRW, not criticism of the [Kingdom of Saudi Arabia].
i will now restore the sourced paragraph in which HRW claims that it is accused of being "soft" in Israeli HR violations, because i fail to see how this can be controversial - it's HRW itself that claims that a claim about it being biased exists.
i suggest we have a discussion about the stance-against paragraph, in case GHcool or someone else disagrees with "This article is about criticism of HRW, not criticism of the [Kingdom of Saudi Arabia]": Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
See the above. Does someone see a justification for including the "stance-on" paragraph? Please let's use this as one small example of building consensus! i can see that CSM may have been hoping that readers would infer that this is a criticism of HRW. However, this is OR and not valid for the article. CSM does not say, "The Christian Science Monitor strongly condemns HRW for its criticism of the Saudi re-education camps... and is appalled that HRW is being unfaithful to the defence of the Fatherland" or something similar.
Are there any arguments for keeping the section? Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Side comment: there seem to be very few wikipedia entries on reeducation camps, under that name, in general - HRW has criticised reeducation camps in PRChina and there is an article on Vietnamese reeducation camps, but other reeducation camps are probably classified as prisons. Note: the former is HRW criticising PRChina reeducation camps, not PRChina criticising HRW for this criticism. Boud ( talk) 23:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Just for convenience for people not wishing to check through a possibly long future revision history, in this version there is an attempt to NPOV the overall structure of the Arab-Israeli conflict related criticisms of HRW section. i have not included the "Stance against teaching suspected terrorists the value of tolerance" section as a subsection, since IMHO it has no chance of being accepted by consensus (see above).
Also, for clarity, here's a repeat of my comment above: If we as editors of this article cannot constructively work together, we could add the {{sanctions}} tag to the top of this talk page - see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Final_decision and Wikipedia:General_sanctions. This is not the first article related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in en.wikipedia history. In the interests of minimising the need for us to be "supervised", i suggest we try to avoid this need. i am not an administrator (for anyone curious), and in any case, administrators implementing the sanctions rules would have to be non-editors of this article, and, i guess, non-editors of Arab-Israeli conflict related articles in general and would have to not have any COI's (conflicts of interest). Boud ( talk) 23:43, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Given the editorial difficulties on this article and the two AfD's, i suggest that we wait a few weeks before attempting to summarise the content in the lead/introduction, which at present is blank. Otherwise, we will waste a lot of energy over it. At the moment, something like a geographical organisation seems to me to provide a reasonably neutral categorisation of different criticisms.
My suggested moratorium would end on 23:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC) + 14 days. After that, we can follow WP:LEAD for hints on writing the lead/introduction. Preparatory work before the end of the moratorium would be to put 'name="keywordsofreference"' type labels in the references, so that the most relevant ones can be re-used in the lead/introduction.
Any objections? Boud ( talk) 23:59, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the following sections (again):
I also have undue weight concerns about "Haiti 2004 coup d'etat." The only source in here that mentions HRW is a ZMag article. This is a rather fringey publication; it seems unreasonable to justify a whole paragraph based on it alone. I'm also not sure that Counterpunch is a good source in "Anti-Arab-League or pro-Israel bias". This is precisely why the article should have been deleted. As long as it exists, it will continue to be filled up with poorly sourced, POV crap. *** Crotalus *** 13:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The rule is you don't do anything against consensus--add or remove. You are adding without consensus. So, it is correct to revert to a somewhat stable version until some consensus is reached. Noloop ( talk) 22:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
The organization was founded to watch human rights abuses in the former Soviet Empire. When did it start employing marxists? how did this come about? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.111.71.197 ( talk) 08:03, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I've reverted all this material that has been added in disregard for the concerns of User:Crotalus horridus and myself. You are expected to work toward consensus. That means when you know material is opposed, and reasons have been given for the opposition, you make a serious effort to negotiate those principles on the Talk page. You do that before continuing to pile on contentious material. You also don't take advantage of a block to shove what you want into an article. The conerns about this article have been outlined above; the additions have been reverted by myself, they've been reverted by Crotalus horridus.
Again, the article as a whole is POV-fork. It just provides a platform for bashing an organization. Several editors expressed the concern about a POV-fork in the deletion discussion, and it needs to be addressed. It's been proposed that fairest way to discuss these criticisms in the context of HRW as a whole, so we should work toward merging it back to the main article. Taking criticisms out of the main article takes them out of context. Please take the time to address Crotalus's suggestion that our goal should be a merge, and the guidelines I gave above that seem like common sense to me. Noloop ( talk) 21:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Consensus discussions should always be attempts to convince others, using reasons. When a discussion breaks down to a mere polarized shouting match, there is no possibility of consensus, and the quality of the article will suffer.
That said, consensus is not simple agreement; a handful of editors agreeing on something does not constitute a consensus, except in the thinnest sense. Consensus is a broader process where specific points of article content are considered in terms of the article as a whole.....
....In determining consensus, consider the strength and quality of the arguments, including the evolution of final positions, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace if available. Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and their (strict) logic may outweigh the "logic" (point of view) of the majority.
...you are directly acting in opposition to these principles.
Noloop (
talk)
22:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
"Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality and verifiability in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on." the material is verifiable. You shgould not delete material wiht out forst achiving consensus, now I am willing to reset the page back to the state it was in on 26 July and then discuse each subject you object to in turn, but please refrain from just mass deletion of material that is sourced. Slatersteven ( talk) 22:42, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
<-This article has been retained following a deletion nomination so why not accept that and move on ? Repeating arguments used in that nomination won't acheive anything. Many of the criticisms here are well sourced and made by notable people who are prominent in their field (their field often being the field of relentlessly criticisng HRW). If the information complies with WP:V it should not be removed without a good reason and after discussions. If there are concerns about undue weight/npov coming from sources with extreme views then criticism must be balanced by presenting the opposing views. Working towards merging it back to the main article is impractical because the criticism of HRW won't stop. It's okay to have an article about fringe pseudoscience subjects like Intelligent Design and describe the sunject in detail. It wouldn't make sense to merge that into the Evolution article. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Sean.hoyland, I have two concerns:
This 144-page report documents the arbitrary arrest and detention of individuals for vaguely defined crimes or behavior that is not inherently criminal. Once arrested, suspects often face prolonged solitary confinement, ill-treatment, forced confessions, and are denied a lawyer at crucial stages of interrogation and trial.
whereas the blogs title is "HRW Sez: Don't Teach Terrorists Tolerance". Isn't this twisting of facts? Imad marie ( talk) 07:20, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
It's ironic that the user who is pushing for the paragraph, GHCool, has not made a single post to the talk page, just reverting back the paragraph.
There is no such thing as "reliable source for Goldberg's opinion", it's either RS or not, and it's not. I will remove the section now until there is consensus to insert it. Imad marie ( talk) 16:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't commented on this issue yet because I see valid points on boths sides and was very ambivalent about it. I kept revisiting though, and I think there is a lot of weight to the fact that was pointed out by Sean.hoyland: "It's a throwaway one line quip by Goldberg rather than a serious analysis of the issue." Since the article deals with serious and complex issues, it's incumbent on us to give it serious treatment. At this point I don't see that Goldberg's comment qualifies as such, and think the article would be stronger without it. Having said that, I would change stance and favor including it, if there were additional sources with stronger arguments. Doc Tropics 22:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
i have restored the subsection title Anti-Arab-League or pro-Israel bias because as most of us should surely know, the Arab–Israeli conflict is a major source of conflict in the world and in wikipedia, so we need to be very careful to NPOV things. The restored section includes: Jonathan Cook's criticism of HRW, HRW's response, and Cook's counter-response. If HRW has a further counter-response, then someone please add it.
i'll again repeat my above comment: If we as editors of this article cannot constructively work together, we could add the {{sanctions}} tag to the top of this talk page - see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Final_decision and Wikipedia:General_sanctions. This is not the first article related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in en.wikipedia history. People interested in having the sanctions tag should probably read the links and see what it involves. i suggest we try to work things out step by step and avoid needing any form of "external" mediation. Boud ( talk) 22:57, 19 August 2009 (UTC), Boud ( talk) 23:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I think that any response from HRW to allagations should be put after the accusation. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Stork has written a rebuttal to the Ma’Ariv article if anyone wants to incorporate it. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the section for now until someone has established that Arvin Bahl is a reliable and notable source on these issues. Perhaps that has already been done but it wasn't immediately obvious from previous discussions. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC) Sorry, I reverted you again Slatersteven until WP:V compliance has been established. I'm assuming South Asia Analysis Group are considered to be an RS but since they don't endorse Bahl's article and it's a opinion piece, WP:V compliance relies on establishing that Bahl himself is considered to be an RS. Has he been published in academic journals, media RS's etc ?
The fact that he apparently wrote it as an undergrad rules it out for me but that's just my view. He sometimes writes a blog for the Huffington Post. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
i've dropped the "pro-US" part of the Latin America section title, putting Allegations of bias concerning Latin America instead. It does seem to me that most of the criticisms (Haiti, Venezuela, Honduras) are inferring that HRW seems to have recently (last 5 years) been too closely aligned with US foreign policy than it should be as an independent, non-governmental organisation, but at least in the sourced information we have in the text of the section at the moment, we don't have pro-US bias stated overtly in all cases. E.g. for Honduras, the authors of the criticism of HRW and appeal to HRW don't overtly say "You seem to be supporting US foreign policy". That does seem to be implied, but not stated outright. We do have a direct statement by Robert Naiman of Just Foreign Policy regarding pro-US-govt bias, which is relevant in the intro to the section, but i don't think it's strong enough to keep "pro-US" bias in the section title. Boud ( talk) 21:33, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Apart from this recent edit that removed sourced material and was reverted by another editor, we do seem to have approached something resembling NPOV+RS+NOR that seems to be stable. Congratulations to everyone participating, but presumably this page will still require regular watching. Boud ( talk) 00:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
i removed the old lead/introduction, since it had almost nothing to do with the content of the article. HRW's own summary of criticism against it cannot be expected to be a particularly good NPOV summary of that part of knowledge. We do not have any discussion of selection bias in the article, nor ideological bias. Geography is not ideology. i did suggest above that we wait a few weeks before trying to write a lead/introduction that summarises the content in line with the suggestions at WP:LEAD, since i didn't see much point trying to summarise it before it had stabilised.
Anyway, i've mostly picked out the refs that have name= tags. i suggest we avoid putting any refs in the lead/intro that are not already present in the main sections of the text, i.e. we only use repeat references. This seems to be consistent with the recommendations in WP:LEAD. i also think it's safer to err on the side of more (repeat) references in the lead/intro rather than too few, though we shouldn't include all of them.
i started with a 2-paragraph structure. One with a list of the criticisms based on the geographical structure of the main body of the article, and a second with HRW's responses, for those geographical areas where it did respond. The Arab–Israeli conflict occupies a lot of ink and bytes, so in the 1st paragraph that got split into a sentence of its own, for clarity.
An interesting side effect here is that it becomes clear that either HRW did not respond to the bias claims for Africa, or we have not found its responses yet. Boud ( talk) 01:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Lets have an RS for this claim, and if possible one that links it to his views on Israle. Slatersteven ( talk) 16:38, 8 September 2009 (UTC) Extra, is this even the same person? Slatersteven ( talk) 17:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
<- Boud, with respect the main problem is Historicist behaving like a POV warrior. There's a time and a place for assume good faith and this isn't it. It's patently obvious what is going on here to anyone who has worked in the I-P conflict area and the discretionary sanctions are quite clear that this kind of activity needs to stop. The policies are crystal clear about edits that potentially affect the reputation of living people and organizations. High quality sources and full WP:V compliance are mandatory. Historicist, must slow down and engage in gaining consensus. If he does not, admin involvement is entirely appropriate. Yes, this is a claim that HRW are run by Nazis (I'm exaggerating for comic effect obviously) and it should be treated with the caution that it deserves. There shoud be red flags waving all over the place in cases like this. Obviously Wikipedia isn't an outlet for anything that appears on partisan/fringe/extremist sites and blogs by people with an axe to grind. If the criticism is notable it will appear in high quality sources that are accepted as RS and we can discuss those. Sean.hoyland - talk 04:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
There don't seem to have been any objections to the sanctions tag, and in any case, part of the article Criticism of HRW necessarily relates to the Arab–Israeli conflict, so we automatically come under the sanctions structure, it would seem to me. So i've put the tag up the top.
As i said in a comment a few sections above, my impression is that the information that Historicist wishes to include in the article probably is relevant, notable and source-able, but editors will not reach a consensus on that through excessive reverts. Discussion on the talk page would (should) have more chance of achieving consensus. i thought i saw somewhere that "uninvolved administrators" could impose a WP:1RR rule on difficult editors, but i can't find the specific place in the arbitration texts. In any case, here is a description of the sanctions, which you can find by following the links in the box anyway. Just for the record, i'm not an administrator, and i have made some edits to the article, so both facts disqualify me from the set of people who can "meta-intervene" here. Boud ( talk) 22:11, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Somebody consistently published in the JPost and US News and World Report cannot be described as fringe and you cannot remove responses that you do not like. Take a look at WP:NPOV. This is not a personal playground to attack whoever you want without any response. nableezy - 04:53, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone quoted an IPS article as saying that David Bernstein apologized for saying that HRW didn't raise Saudi abuses on its fundraising trip to Saudi Arabia. That's inaccurate. No one from IPS ever spoke to David Bernstein (me). IPS instead butchered an original blog post that I wrote: "For my part, if Ms. Whitson did indeed criticize Saudi human rights abuses during her trip, I apologize for suggesting otherwise." http://www.volokh.com/posts/1247622550.shtml
NOTE THE "IF"
Given that Whitson has refused to release any transcript, video, or audio of her remarks, I have no idea what she raised or didn't raise, other than her anti-Israel quotes noted in the Arab News. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.172.198 ( talk) 14:46, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
There's a big difference between Saudis being "aware" of HRW's criticisms of the kindgom's human rights practices, and being at least as upfront about those criticisms when looking for support there as HRW was about its hostility to Israel and its supporters. HRW's claim is that it treats all nations the same, not that it modulates its criticisms based on the audience.
I think that criticism of HRW by member of HRW board of directors Helena Cobban is significant, as is ceiticism by an NGO like [NGO Monitor. If you agree, do put the material back in. Historicist ( talk) 21:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
References
I started a new section. there are allegations of bias from the partisans of several nations. However, there are also allegations of methodological inadequacies and errors, which ought to be separated from the allegations of bias. Historicist ( talk) 14:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
is not a reliable source. See here, here, and here. nableezy - 23:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
This section seems to suffer undue weight. Comments or suggestions?-- 69.208.131.94 ( talk) 00:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Howto: this is a point-wise list for helping to guide discussion in order to converge on possible compacting (compression) of the Anti-Israel/pro-Arab-League section of the article. The problem is concern that the section dominates the article out of proportion to its importance. Please add/remove/clarify/sort/re-structure this list of points and add longer explanations/comments below. Boud ( talk) 20:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
"bla" is just an example that obviously needs to be modified. Boud ( talk) 20:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
And I disagree, I think it is important to focus on it. AS HRW seems to ignore terrorist attacks against Israel and take an anti Israeli view on their self defense policy.
Tannim1 (
talk)
08:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Did you to WSJ link I supplied? It clkearly state the dispropinate HRW complaints and artciles I believe 28 for Isreal to 2 for the Palestinians. Tannim1 ( talk) 19:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm not a Wikipedia guru, but it strikes me as absurd that if Helen Cobban (or Noah Pollack, or Gerald Steinberg of NGO Monitor) is quoted in a newspaper, the fact that it's in a newspaper makes the quotation a reliable source, even though newspaper quotations are often inaccurate and even more often incomplete or out of context. But if the same person made the same remark on the same subject on his or her blog, then the source is "not reliable," even though it's straight from the horse's mouth. That's just nonsense. The reliability has to be the person, not where his opinion is published.
link it to the page and reduce it I think is a boog idea. Slatersteven ( talk) 14:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Why was the section on anti-semitism removed? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
pro-HRW and anti-HRW. -- Sceptic from Ashdod ( talk) 13:57, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm totally confused by the following:
I can't work out what this is trying to say! Is this criticism of Human Rights Watch? It does seem to be... can anyone shed any light on this? - Tbsdy (formerly Ta bu shi da yu) talk 12:48, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Anyone mind if I change state of Israel to a capitalised State of Israel? I know it's a small thing, but it's the actual proper name. Also, there is a State of Palestine referred to as well, but that isn't yet even recognised by the UN as being an actual country yet (and it gets to be capitalised) and I'm not sure they've adopted State of Palestine as their name --- Correction, I now see they did in 1988 (they really should pick a better name than a silly Roman one meant to insult the Jews imo, but that's just me, maybe State of al-Quds or Republic of al-Quds). Hpelgrift ( talk) 18:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
sean - i wrote the facts, not POV. it makes no difference that hrw has been publishing reports about libya for years, as you say. what comes out is that the hrw head of the middle east division actually felt that reforms in libya were taking place two years ago, and only now, acknowledges her mistake. not sure why you feel this is not appropriate. Soosim ( talk) 17:47, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
There is talk about Allegations of bias against India but the article is missing that section, did someone delete it? -- Neelkamala ( talk) 09:28, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
I've removed an old POV template with a dormant discussion, per the instructions on that template's page:
If editors are continuing to work toward resolution of any issue and I missed it, however, please feel free to restore. Cheers, -- Khazar2 ( talk) 03:10, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi Sean.hoyland! Thanks for your feedback, I recently started editing on Wiki and I am still learning the ropes! I took into account your comments and re-wrote the information below so the wording is more appropriate, what do you think?
I went to the link you provided, I thought that I would find a HRW written report on FGM in Somalia, but it's a policy paper citing a WHO study that mentioned that FGM occurred in African countries, it's not a full report from HRW on FGM in Somalia. SimplesC ( talk) 21:16, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
References
The Pro-Israel bias section has been repeatedly blanked. As another editor stated when restoring the information, "We have Camera and the like in the article. Either activist sources from BOTH sides...or none". Please stop the blatant POV-pushing being attempted by blanking this information. Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 15:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Yeah. When HRW released this total bullshit report on Egypt, the government criticized them. When I checked the HRW article, I saw no section on Egypt, so I thought, "Why not?"
As a result, I added this new section. Didn't you guys feel there was a missing section? Zakawer ( talk) 13:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
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@ Odalcet: please, before removing this content again [8], discuss why you do not agree with it. Maybe we can find a better wording. The Venezuelan government is not a impartial actor here because the report of the HRW is about Chavez administration. The point of view of the accused HRW investigators involved has to be taken into account.-- ReyHahn ( talk) 06:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
There is some online criticism of HRW's position on recent (2019/2020) developments in Bolivia, but none of them are great quality sources, ex: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/11/20/human-rights-watch-bolivia-coup-massacre/ - the responses to this: https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1305186958990172161
Are these enough for a new section? Does anybody have a better sources? Miserlou ( talk) 05:00, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Similar to Bolivia, there's criticism of their activities in Colombia: https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/did-human-rights-watch-sabotage-colombias-peace-agreement/
Miserlou ( talk) 05:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)