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Why does this article refer on more than one occasion to 'the Christian myth..'? The author may believe creation as described in Genesis is a myth, but that's entirely subjective...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.247.125 ( talk)
Right, except that the Bible isn't folklore and in modern usage, the term myth always implies something which is in no way true. I'm aware that this has been discussed in much more detail on other discussion pages, but my point is that other words could be used here - myth is incorrect and is used, I suspect, primarily by non-Christians in order to offend... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.247.125 ( talk) 20:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Something I feel worth pointing out is that
Universally used terms are often preferable to less widely distributed terms. Basically, it's best to keep it simple yet formal. For example, "wall" is prefered over "bulkhead" as most people will recognize wall whereas many people will get confused over bulkhead.
PCHS-NJROTC
(Messages)
03:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The use of the words "Christian myth" do not portray a neutral standpoint. It should be changes to "biblical scripture", as this is not offensive to any user, and is not portraying Christian nor non-Christian standpoints. Francisoh7 ( talk) 02:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I would have to agree that the term "myth" is very misleading, not to mention highly objectionable to the majority of those who would consider their self to be creationists. If this page is suppose to be an unbiased page rather than coming across as naturalistic propaganda, it should be amended. Quintessential1 ( talk) 19:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)JPD
This poll http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm is proving contentious as to whether it should be included in this article and if so how phrased. To summarize the positions as I see it the nays say that the poll questioned people only about what they believed with regard to the creation of humans (10,000 BCE) and not the Earth. Therefore using the poll to justify the line "Young Earth creationist views are held by as many as 44%" is not correct. The other side, and I'm quoting Rossnixon from his/her summary "yes, but you will find there is no group of note than says both that the earth is billions of years old and humans are less than 10,000 years old". I think there are two issues here, not being able to find such a group (and I don't even know how to begin looking) does not justify reinterpreting the original article even if we're convinced the two versions practically mean the same thing -- we should not make those kinds of judgement calls and just use the original wording. The second issue is that it's been over 20 years since I held any religious belief but I'm almost positive that I did, at one point, believe that the Earth/universe was billions of years old but that humans were 6,000 - 10,000 years old (my need to reconcile science and religion). While I might have been unique in this belief as a young teenager I can't help but think I must have gotten it from other people. Yes, that's anecdotal, but I think that's all that's necessary to demonstrate that the possibility exists for groups of people to hold both views (Earth=billions, humans=thousands) which renders the current phrasing misleading. SQGibbon ( talk) 04:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
This passage here: Since the end of the 19th century, belief in creationism has decreased as scientific theories have been presented that may support more naturalistic explanations for the universe and for life.
Should be changed to: Since the end of the 19th century, belief in creationism has decreased as scientific theories have been presented that may support more realistic explanations for the universe and for life. Jbhf1 ( talk) 02:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The article opens with the assertion that "Creationism is the religious belief..." The quoted statement is both sourced and true ... a lot of the time, anyway, but not in every instance. Implicit in the opening line is that creationism cannot be anything other than a religious belief. Given this implication, let's say (hypothetically) that I believe that X ("X" being any supernatural entity that feels personally meaningful to me, and--as it turns out--only to me) created all of everything because he/she/it simply wanted to. My belief would match the remainder of the article's definition of creationism. It would not, however, meet several definitions of "religion". If this belief contributes to my "selfhood", then it meets Thomas Luckmann's very broad definition of religion. Such a belief could fit quite nicely with Alfred North Whitehead's summary of religion as that which one does with one's "solitariness". Belief in X might be somewhat consistent with Paul Tillich's description of religion as that which makes one experience a sense of holiness and awe. X could, at least in theory, accomplish this for me. But consider Peter Berger, who stated that this meaningfulness must be of the sort that makes everything seem "humanly significant". Maybe my belief in X doesn't go quite that far. And it doesn't have to go so far as accepting that a God or saviour exists (in contrast to the belief that religion makes such acceptances); my "supernatural entity" could be nothing but a sentient blob of ectoplasm. Or consider Clifford Geertz, who saw religion as a "cultural system". If my belief is idiosyncratic, it's not a "cultural" system. And so on. I would change the line to something like, "Creationism is the belief, often of a religious nature, that..." What do others think about this suggestion? Cosmic Latte ( talk) 14:46, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and made this change. Please let me know if there are any problems with the change or with my rationale. Cosmic Latte ( talk) 12:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no other grievance apart from the (seemingly) hijacking of creationism by Christians. There are plenty of other earlier religions, myths and sagas that mention it. Creationism certainly dates from earlier times than the first century AD. Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 22:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a user who is going back and changing all proper wiki-links in this article to an old article title. Now that old article title was only in effect for 2 months, and yet all the wiki-links were changed to match that. Somehow this user didn't object then. Now that the article is changed back, that user is pushing that the wiki-links remain the same. Does anyone else see this as pov-pushing? I certainly do. SAE ( talk) 03:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Why does one of the paragraphs reference the Lutheran church as a church that does not hold the Bible as applicable to the physical world? I am not trying to fight or argue, but as a Lutheran I am curious as to where this reference was acquired. To my understanding, nowhere in Lutheran doctrine is the Bible discounted as a source of knowledge of the physical world. Help? Prussian725 ( talk) 02:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll acknowledge upfront that I've recently taken issue with the opening line's introduction of creationism as a "religious belief". I backed off from that argument (i.e., the position that labeling creationism a religious belief was over-simplistic), pending a look at the source already provided. I haven't checked that source and haven't seen that anyone else has checked it, and I retain my final position that the legitimacy of the opening phrase hinges on what the source says. So, I do not mean to rehash my old/original position here. However, as I was editing the article today, I still sensed something awkward about the first line. The problem, IMO, is that it's simply redundant. Even if we understand religious belief as belief generally in a supernatural agency, what we ultimately have, in the assertion that "Creationism is [a] religious belief [about] a supernatural agency" is, "Creationism is a religious belief pertaining to the object of a religious belief." To avoid this sort of redundancy, I might suggest rephrasing the line as something like, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural, or religious, agency." Or, perhaps, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural agency of religious import." Or even, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural deity." Or just, "...the creation of a deity." Again, I acknowledge having raised (and relented on) a related theme a while back. I trust my fellow editors not to assume that I'm trying to push any particular POV (e.g., some form of naturalistic legitimation), but nonetheless offer evidence of my neutrality to any... shall I say, non-believers. ;-) Basically, regardless of whether or not the opening line is over-simplifying, I wonder if it might be overstating its idea. Cosmic Latte ( talk) 20:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I have the second edition of the book. I found this on page 114 regarding Creationism as a religious belief
"McLean v. Arkansas was tried in federal district court... The Arkansas ACLU would argue that because creation science was inherently a religious idea, its advocacy as required by Act 590 would violate the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution." That is what I can find on page 114. But it goes on further about the trial and how the defense was unwilling to use people from the ICR due to the fact that they wrote Christian apologetic material.
Essentially by passing Act 590, the state of Arkansas was acting in the advancement of religion (by allowing for the teaching of creation science). The Act was overturned in that court case because creation science is a religious belief. ZgokE ( talk) 21:53, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Don’t be sorry, be specific. Point out the evidence (I maybe missed it), rather than simply be disdainful and patronising. Mannafredo ( talk) 14:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I am not advocating spontaeneous edits, but the most recent edit by a random IP has brought to light an uncited statement that I think deserves some sort of reference, since it does speak for literally millions of people around the globe. I understand that it does only say "many" Christians, but this language is somewhat floppy and does not entail any factual data. Thoughts? Prussian725 ( talk) 16:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
comes before other claims attributed to the source found at Miller, J. D.; Scott, EC; Okamoto, S (11 August 2006). "Public Acceptance of Evolution". Science. 313 (5788): 765–766. doi: 10.1126/science.1126746. PMID 16902112. For what it's worth, I think the "many" may fall into WP:WEASEL territory, but it's a claim clearly supported by the source (that outside of the US & Turkey, "Western" nations are far less literal in their interpretations of scripture and less antagonistic its relationship to science). — Scien tizzle 17:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)Many Christians around the world today accept evolution as the most likely explanation for the origins of species, and do not take a literal view of the Genesis creation narrative.
Shouldn't it be referred to as a theory, much like evolution? -- Iankap99 ( talk) 02:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Some 20 years ago in an archeology course at the University of Utah we were given a break down of how old the Evolution-Creationism debate was and what its origins were.
Neptunism vs Plutonism (18th century)
Catastrophism vs Uniformitarianism (Early 19th century before Darwin)
Creationism vs Evolution (19th century after Darwin)
Does anyone know of any books that support this concept that we could use as reliable references?-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 08:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi, if you're asking for reading material on the history of creationism, and thus the 'debate', then I'd recommend looking for works by Eugenie Scott, as head of the NCSE she's an authority on that kind of information. (edit, whoops, forgot to log in. also, not sure if her work will go back to pre-Darwinian times.) -- SeldooN ( talk) 23:40, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Biostratigraphy is far from my field, but the fossil record has always shown innumerable discontinuities, whose cause eluded the 19th Century geologist, such as Sedgwick. Modern ones have evidence of massive volcanoes, cosmic collisions, and other catastrophes. Explaining observed phenomena using only processes that take place uniformly and an Earth's age well over 6000 years was the passion of James Hutton, who mapped ... well, plutons in Scotland for decades. :-)
In England, at least, this was accepted; while it took a long time for the igneous nature of basalts to be accepted by continental geologists. They had been thought deposited by the 'great flood'. I do know that, though French publications were highly attractive, it wasn't until Bunsen's chemical work on lavas in Iceland that 'plutonism' replaced 'neptunism'. It was so hard to swallow that I'm not sure Germany's finest field geologist, von Buch, ever fully accepted it. I should think this debate would be important to creationists.
Uniformitarianism didn't exclude catastrophic changes in flora & fauna between the Cambrian, Ordovician, & Devonian periods and many hiatuses between. However, the success of explaining most of geological history by those slow & uniform changes seen today did require great periods of time. It was this that was presented in Lyell's text, which Darwin (I read) was influenced by. The 'great flood' was the only catastrophe drawn on by continental geologists; and this didn't agree well with stratigraphy (I have read Sedgwick: he was a plutonist); and the bending of strata by rushing water wasn't as attractive as the Scottish theories, which required deep burial & uplift. The 'uniformitarianism' vs 'catastrophism' (floods & wrath) debate would appear an important creationist debate as well.
BTW, I've a copy of Darwin's famous (short) paper on coral atolls. It seemed remarkably clever, to me, as a young geologist; and I assumed it had no trouble being accepted. However, I never read anything by A. Agassiz on reefs: his book, at least, was on Alpine glaciation and its role as a uniform force of geologic change. I've not read Darwin's observations on earthquakes, however.
In this collection of reprints are papers by Darwin on the important subject of differentiation of a volcanic rock by the floating of feldspar crystals, a reasonable (at the time) explanation of granite selvages parallel to foliation at the base of a granitic synform, careful measurements of sea cliffs containing littoral (shallow) sea shells, and a discussion of how life might appear to have formed suddenly at the base of the Cambrian: Darwin suggests, correctly, that metamorphism of the pre-Cambrian may have obscured any evidence. The excellent references, correct use of language, and impeccable reasoning suggests to me that Darwin was more than the competent geologist he claimed. Few, if any, geologists today write so well in such differing specialties. Geologist ( talk) 02:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I had never heard the word 'creationism' until I moved home to California, where I was stunned to be welcomed as an atheist, to be shunned. So, I've no special interest in knowing what a modern creationism is. (No offense, but I thought all had died out in the 19th Century.)
Two requirements that I don't seem to have would, however, appear necessary: (1) a belief that there must be some animosity between science and religion; and (2) a failure to recognize that religion is based upon faith, and science is based upon objective observation & measurement. Scientific truth is not religious truth. If one should have a deep, religious experience during a temporal lobe seizure (with sufficient clinical indications), can one not commune with God or with 'God within us' (our soul) during that seizure? (In fact, many mystics have experienced exactly that.) We have both subjective experiences and objective ones. I don't see a clash. A definition of 'creationism' should be written by a disinterested person; and that clearly isn't I.
Regularly I donate to the SPCA & Humane Society, and I'm very, very pleased, religiously, with the concept that all sentient being are relatives; though I'm ashamed at our arrogance and treatment of animals. I feel confident in stating that the first line of your definition should be changed. Geologist ( talk) 10:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Mather & Mason's book of fine reprints (from about 1480 to 1898, refernced above) contains samples of the best geologists' papers of the period covering Neptunism & Plutonism, and Uniformitarianism & Catastrophism. These were very important creationism debates that distilled from observation, the creation of 'geology' as a science. Von Buch did finally accept the igneous origin of basalt, Sedgwick's acceptance of 'Plutonism' appears, a ten page summary of Hutton's 'Theory of the Earth' is here, Lyell writes on Uniformitarianism, and Werner writes on the sedimentary origin of all rocks.
There should be many books in the History of Science on these debates; and Google Books and the Internet Archive should have many, public domain, full PDF books on these debates: they created geology and are most important. The articles should be fascinating. (My first geology course was to read Holmes's traditional text and Velikovsky's 'catastrophic' text, while evaluating the observations & conclusions by each. Good stuff.) If is BruceGrubb is near a university, the History of Science Department might have a specialist. Good luck. Geologist ( talk) 02:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Whilst reading though the article (at 04:15, mind you), I came to the conclusion that this whole thing must have been written in an effort to perpetuate the "science v religion" mentality, especially prevalent in the introduction. I though the point of a Wikipedia article was to inform about the topic at hand. It seems much of that could go into Creation–evolution controversy, being the more appropriate place for what is such a digression here. Ninjayofthefunk ( talk) 09:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm having trouble working out what the closing clause of this sentence from the Scientific critique section means ...
The "whilst" is confusing since it doesn't fit with the "disprove" on either side. One might expect a "prove" on one side of a "whilst" with a "disprove" on the other (i.e. "X is disproven whilst Y is proven"). More generally, the wording here could be expanded so it's clearer that Gould was eschewing creationism when he was talking about religion. That might make it easier to explain why exactly some scientists reject NOMA. Cheers, -- PLUMBAGO 09:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Review: Creationism and Its Critics in Antiquity | NCSE suggests a useful source for those with the time and interest to explore the philosophical origins of creationism. Also, A chance to explore Darwin's Universe | NCSE gives a link to a downloadable pdf of sample pages, including a brief though perhaps rather simplistic outline of Bryan's reasons for setting creationism off as an anti-evolution crusade. . . dave souza, talk 11:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the lead went on a rather offtopic discussion of the history of geology, when as sources show the term creationism developed as part of arguments over the origin of species, and indeed early creationists such as Bryan were firm believers in an ancient earth. I've therefore refocussed this paragraph on the origins of the controversy and usage of the term. The text and references I've removed are replicated below in case they're of use for the body of the article. . dave souza, talk 09:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
In the 19th century, British geologists and other scientists [1] [2] argued that the world was considerably older than the 17th-century, scripture-based calculation of less than six millennia. [3] [4] In the United States the apparent discrepancies between science and religion were seized upon and amplified in "cultural warfare" [5] [6] over whether science or religion could provide the most "authentically American" creation story. [5] By the 1920s, Biblical creationism had become "the standard alternative to" [7] scientific explanations of the biosphere.
The above info may be of use in the body of the text, but is rather too detailed or offtopic for the lead. . . dave souza, talk 09:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
From around the start of the nineteenth century, ideas such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck's concept of transmutation of species had gained a small number of supporters in Paris and Edinburgh, mostly amongst anatomists. [1] Britain at that time was enmeshed in the Napoleonic Wars, and fears of republican revolutions such as the American Revolution and French Revolution led to a harsh repression of such evolutionary ideas, which challenged the divine hierarchy justifying the monarchy. Charles Darwin's development of his theory of natural selection at this time was kept closely secret. Repression eased, and the anonymous publication of Vestiges of Creation in 1844 aroused wide public interest with support from Quakers and Unitarians, but was strongly criticised by the scientific community, which emphasized the need for solidly backed science. In 1859 Darwin's On the Origin of Species provided that evidence from an authoritative and respected source, and gradually convinced scientists that evolution occurs. This acceptance was resisted by conservative evangelicals in the Church of England, but their attention quickly turned to the much greater uproar about Essays and Reviews by liberal Anglican theologians, which introduced into the controversy " the higher criticism" begun by Erasmus centuries earlier. This book re-examined the Bible and cast doubt on a literal interpretation. [2] By 1875 most American naturalists supported ideas of theistic evolution, often involving special creation of human beings. [3]
At this time those holding that species had been separately created were generally called "advocates of creation", but they were occasionally called "creationists" in private correspondence between Charles Darwin and his friends. [4] The term appears in letters Darwin wrote between 1856 and 1863, [5] and was also used in a response by Charles Lyell. [6]
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Why is it that thoughout both this article and many others relating to creationism and evolution that the evolutionist side has the main and final points, and that the articles are written in such a way as to provide an unbalanced view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Banak ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
This article could use some more eyes. Dylan Flaherty ( talk) 03:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is definately slanted toward the evolutionary viewpoint. That seems odd given its subject. For instance, there very first sentence includes the unrelated phrase "religious belief". Like the evolutionary belief system, the creationism belief system uses the area of science to support itself. Those who only use some Biblical sources are misunderstanding the point of it all.
I believe that the real confusion comes in by not understanding the foundational issue of science, with the side issues of evolution and creation as interesting belief systems side-notes.
Evolutionists should have no business contributing to this article, any more than creationists should be expected to know about evolution. (True scientists need not apply in either case.) Without a clear basic understanding, the article's authors will never be able to reach the level of accuracy and truth necessary for a real encyclopedia. - KitchM ( talk) 23:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
This text reads to me to be biased. If you read the Bible literally then the solar day was created on the 4th day, and therefore the 7 days of creation cannot be solar days. So I do not understand how people taking a liberal view of the text, applying solar days to the first 3 days before the solar day was created, can be said to be literalists or fundamentalists. Anyone taking the text literally cannot do this. This was pointed out by St Augustine of Hippo so this is a valid orthodox historical view. Of course anyone is free to make any interpretation but please do not claim that they are taking the text literally which distorts their view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChilternGiant ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
What exactly did St Augustine say about evolution and solar days in Genesis? The main article doesn't actually quote him and so could be slightly harder to understand.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Englishnotbritish ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 17 February 2011
In the "Re-Emergence in the United States" section I did a very minor cleanup. I simply removed a few extraneous commas in the first sentence, moved a link to United States to the term's first appearance in the section, and made a small change to correct repetitive wording (both of the first two sentences previously began with the phrase "In the United States" which seemed awkward to me). Hope no one minds. 98.116.207.197 ( talk) 19:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
The truth of this phrase would appear to be blindingly obvious as theistic evolution is the official position of, e.g., the Catholic Church, and is cited to Public Acceptance of Evolution, which states "Catholics and mainstream Protestants generally accept variations of a theological view known as theistic evolution, which views evolution as the means by which God brought about humans, as well as other organisms." clearly supporting this claim. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Any chance i can add a small section about Native American Creationism to the article? 86.10.119.131 ( talk) 18:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Archives 2-11 are, for some reason, redirects to archive 1. does anyone know if there is a reason for this? Farsight001 ( talk) 02:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
A minor edit skirmish has just occurred over this matter. I don't feel it's pejorative where I am in Australia. I'd be happy to be called an evolutionist. Is it different elsewhere? HiLo48 ( talk) 02:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
This revert is because the term "evolutionist" is considered pejorative and is used to somehow equilibrate religion to evolution. Religion is a belief. Evolution is a science. One does not "believe" in evolution. One accepts it based on the facts or on its merits. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 02:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Why is a secondary source better than a primary source when dealing with what creationists state that they believe? Dan Watts ( talk) 17:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
The table in the "Types of Biblical creationism" section totally misinterprets the referenced Gallup poll. It makes the error of correlating the 3 Gallup categories with the 5 listed creationist views. In fact, the first three creationist views correlate to the "God created humans in their present form" Gallup category, and the last two creationist views can correspond to either of the two other Gallup categories (humans evolved with/without God's help). The Gallup poll does not well-distinguish these views.
A more correct accounting is the first three creationist views are held by 40% and the last two are held by 54%.
173.172.51.3 ( talk) 04:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I found it rather annoying when the article stated that "Maimonides described the story of Eve and the serpent as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts". This is an excerpt from his book, Guide for the Perplexed (chapter 30, paragraph 19), and, according to [5], what the scholar really said was: "The following is also a remarkable passage, most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with real facts, as will be found by those who understand all the chapters of this treatise. When the serpent came to Eve he infected her with poison; the Israelites, who stood at Mount Sinai, removed that poison; idolaters, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, have not got rid of it. Note this likewise. Again they said: "The tree of life extends over an area of five hundred years' journey, and it is from beneath it that all the waters of the creation sprang forth": and they added the explanation that this measure referred to the thickness of its body, and not to the extent of its branches, for they continue thus: "Not the extent of the branches thereof, but the stem thereof [korato, lit., 'its beam,' signifying here 'its stem') has a thickness of five hundred years' journey." This is now sufficiently clear. Again: "God has never shown the tree of knowledge [of good and evil] to man, nor will He ever show it." This is correct, for it must be so according to the nature of the Universe. Another noteworthy saying is this: "And the Lord God took the man, i.e., raised him, and placed him in the Garden of Eden," i.e., He gave him rest. The words "He took him," "He gave him, "have no reference to position in space, but they indicate his position in rank among transient beings, and the prominent character of his existence. Remarkable and noteworthy is the great wisdom contained in the names of Adam, Cain, and Abel, and in the fact that it was Cain who slew Abel in the field, that both of them perished, although the murderer had some respite, and that the existence of mankind is due to Seth alone. Comp. "For God has appointed me another seed" (iv. 25). This has proved true." He was talking about an extra-biblical source probably popular in the early 12th century. May I have someone's permission to delete the part about Maimonides? If you disagree with anything I've said, I'd be more than happy to reconsider. Thank you. Wekn reven i susej eht ( talk) 07:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
@ Wekn, it's very nice of you to offer your interpretations of the original text, but by suggesting getting Jewish editors to advise on the basis of their studies of old Hebrew literature, you've clearly missed the whole point of our no original research policy. Opinions on primary sources have to be based on reliable published secondary sources. In this case, Forster has published the opinion that this passage by Maimonides illustrates non-literal interpretation of the bible, specifically of the Genesis text. You don't even seem to differ from this general point, so there's no reason to remove the example. If you think our wording should be modified to reflect the views published by Forster more accurately, please suggest proposals for improving the wording. . . dave souza, talk 14:40, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Backs up what claim? The claim that Maimonides' argues that much of the Bible should be read figuratively and not literally? Well, you say that you have read Guide both in English and in Hebrew (although I am stil not sure how this matters) means that you surely found this passage:
Slrubenstein | Talk 05:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
While translating and understanding ancient texts is worthy, for our purposes we need to base the article on reliable secondary sources discussing the implications of that primary source for the subject. From Forster, Roger; Marston, Dr Paul (2001). "Chapter 7 - Genesis Through History". Reason Science and Faith. Chester, England: Monarch Books. ISBN 1854244418 –
Maimonides, for example, probably the greatest Jewish exegete after Rashi, is quite explicit that parts of Genesis 1-3 cannot be taken literally. In, eg, the context of the snake, Eve and the tree of life, Maimonides has:
"The following is also a remarkable passage, most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts, as will be found by those who understand all the chapters of this treatise."
At present the article says
The tradition of such writers as
Abraham ibn Ezra consistently rejected overly literal understandings of Genesis, and
Maimonides described the story of
Eve and the serpent as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts".
Here's a suggested modification:
The tradition of such writers as
Abraham ibn Ezra consistently rejected overly literal understandings of Genesis.
Maimonides discussed a treatise on
Eve, the serpent and the
tree of life, as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts".
dave souza,
talk
11:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I think the discussion here ought to be about whether or not the secondary source used is reliable. If the secondary source has indeed made a blatantly incorrect assessment of the primary source, then it is not usable. If it is a reasonable assessment of the primary source then it is fine. If you are unsure as to the reliability of the source then the content should be removed until further evidence is found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkennedy561 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "The significantly higher percentage of Republicans who choose a creationist view of human origins reflects in part the strong relationship between religion and politics in contemporary America. Republicans are significantly more likely to attend church weekly than are others, and, as noted, Americans who attend church weekly are most likely to select the creationist alternative for the origin of humans." Four in 10 Americans Believe in Strict Creationism-Belief in evolutionary origins of humans slowly rising, however, GALLUP.-- 87.178.104.202 ( talk) 21:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Liberal Lutherans such as the ELCA support evolution.
Conservative Lutherans such as the LCMS and WELS oppose evolution.
Db63376 ( talk) 18:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)db63376
I question why this irrelevant section was put in the article, especially when there is no Creationism section in the Evolution article. If anyone can come up with a logical reason why it is in the article, I would like to know a logical reason why there is no creationism section in the Evolution article.-- Jacksoncw ( talk) 22:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
By the way, you shouldn't quote Wikipedia articles to argue factual points, especially not on Wikipedia. Since, you know, you may well be arguing with the people who wrote the article. And the best you are likely to get is an admission that they didn't write as clearly as they should have. Guettarda ( talk) 02:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Clearly the article does not convey that message very well. That's not the message I was getting at all. Might I reccomend specifying that extremely broad and extremely vague description in the lede. Because what I got was that Creationism is the belief that a supernatural being created everything, which has been around for thousands of years.-- Jacksoncw ( talk) 03:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
This paragraph belongs in either the Evolution page or the Creation-Evolution Controversy page, period. It contains no information in understanding the concept of Creationism and displays a bias that does not belong in an encyclopedia article. The Creation-Evolution Controversy page is ALWAYS going to try to creep in here and everywhere else it can via people with their own agenda. I hope Wiki doesn't lose its integrity and cleans this article up from everything that is not Creationism information. Thinktank33 ( talk) 16:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It appears that under the Movements section Judaism has two sections. Can these be consolidated? Mthoodhood ( talk) 19:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Diff Weasel words are unsupported attributions, such as "It is said that" without naming who said it. Here the issue is about differences such as the one between "claimed" and "said" in contexts such as "... intelligent design, which was subsequently claimed to be a new scientific theory."
WP:CLAIM does not forbid the use of words such as "claim," but calls for them to be used judiciously.
In this context the word "claim" is correct, since the statement's credibility was indeed called into question in court, in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. The judge's ruling explicitly stated that The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.
__ Just plain Bill ( talk) 12:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The article claims that creationism rejects scientific conclusions. This claim is wrong. The truth is, that evolutionism rejects scientific findings, as anyone knows who is familiar with the topic. 18:33, 22 November 2011 (CET) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.162.68.39 ( talk)
I propose a different name for the section... Judaism has its own section slightly further down the page that focuses more specifically on Judaism. The section that was formerly titled " Judaism and Christianity" seems to change focus from first Christianity (with a minor mention of old Jewish views; which are covered in the history section anyhow) then focuses entirely on the Bible. user:Mthoodhood brought the point up a month ago and suggested the two sections were consolidated... but there's nothing more than two sentences on Judaism to consolidate from the first section.
Maybe a little too bold in changing the name of the section to just "Christianity", but to include Judaism in the title seems misleading and confusing. Perhaps a better title would be something like "Biblical interpretation vs. Genesis", because the whole section and the sub-sections are about biblical interpretation and Christian views. Peter ( talk) 17:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
So, if this article is about the 're-branding of anti-evolution which responded to the growing evidence for evolution and its general acceptance in science' (Dave Souza, an earlier post), where is the article on Creationism as a belief that a supreme being created the world (not necessarily restricted to modern times)? Should there be an in-article separation or two separate articles or no article...ideas, anyone? Wekn reven i susej eht Talk• Follow 14:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a section on Theistic Evolution? It is the belief that God created everything by means of what has been discovered in science. Technically it is a form of Creationism, so is it possible for it to have a section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.223.184 ( talk) 21:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
The 'Creationism internationally' section is a complete dog's breakfast. We have TE & the Catholic Church tossed in there, as well as various individual European and Middle-Eastern countries listed independently of 'Europe and Middle East' and 'Islamic countries'. The forms of creationism are currently discussed as an (un-ToC-listed) section called 'Types of Biblical creationism' within the Christianity section. This is ludicrously improper WP:WEIGHTing. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
(The lack of ToC listing was due to a limiter-tag. I've restructured things so that they're hopefully in a more easy-to-find hierarchy -- with 'internationally' divided up by continent, and the forms of creationism no longer in a sub-sub-sub-sub-category.) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a section on this that is more conspicuous? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.223.184 ( talk) 03:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 02:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
MOS:CAPS#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents states "In a biblical context 'God' is always capitalized when referring to the Judeo-Christian deity". This means that Abrahamic god should be replaced by Abrahamic God, and the former should probably be WP:RFDed. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I actually agree with Hrafn. I think it does need to be changed to "Abrahamic God". Zenkai251 ( talk) 01:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
(i) I am not a Christian ("selfish" or otherwise -- as most regulars on this article are aware). (ii) I (a) believe their is "doubt" due to "God" in the English language being in the grey area between proper and common noun, and am in favour of following MOS on this.
All of which means that HiLo48 is completely talking out their arse.
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk(
P)
14:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok, that's just a fairly daft debate. It's THE abrahamic God; i.e. there is only one. And His commonly used name is "God". If I had a pet cat whose name was "Mongommery the Third", but whose nickname was "Cat", it would be perfectly reasonably for me to use "Cat" as ether a proper noun; "my tabby Cat" or a common noun; "my tabby cat". Plus, God is that accepted usage. Grammar is full of exceptions/compromises. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.50.102 ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Note It seems like most people are in favor of the change. Have we reached a consensus? Zenkai251 ( talk) 21:27, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
The chart Response to the Statement, "Human Beings, as We Know Them, Developed from Earlier Species of Animals appears twice in this article, first at Creationism internationally and then again at Prevalence. I haven't even attempted to read this whole article, but it appears there's at least some overlap or duplication of discussion as well. My impression is that some general cleanup and organizing of the whole article would help a great deal. Milkunderwood ( talk) 05:38, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
In the "Creationism internationally" paragraph, it is stated that creationism has an effect on scientists, universities or society in European countries. No, it does not have one. Not at all. The whole paragraph should be deleted until proof can be shown that officially approved European educational institutions such as legal universities even have creationism as a topic of their scientific research. Otherwise, this whole article is totally biased junk and a marketing tool for a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.157.55.84 ( talk) 16:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
The article is POV if it suggests that all Christians are by definition Creationists. The dictionary definition indicates that Creationism is specifically belief in the literal interpretation of the Creation Account in Genesis, or specifically that Creationism is the counterpoised to evolution. It therefore gives the inaccurate perception that all Christians consider that the Creation account is to be interpreted literally and that evolution is not accepted in Christianity. This is clearly not the case, certainly as far as mainstream Christianity is concerned and it is misleading to give the impression that all Christians are exclusively ideologically Creationist. JohnArmagh ( talk) 16:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems odd that these two sections are separate, let alone have a whole load of material between them. Is there a particular reason for this that I'm missing? If not, I'd suggest making the latter a subsection of the former, possibly moving the last part of "Prevalence" on the education issues in the US elsewhere or making it into a separate section. Dr Marcus Hill ( talk) 12:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
British geneticist and evolutionary biologist, J B S Haldane, observed that the Dasavataras (ten principal avatars of Lord Vishnu) are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.[8] The avatars of Vishnu show an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.[9] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.26.223.225 ( talk) 12:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
This article pertains solely to a religious belief. We do not categorize theism as "denialism" or any other religious belief as "denialism" because this runs up against WP:NPOV. It is not our place to judge the truth of any particular religious view. Creationism can encompass young earth creationism or theistic evolution so it is even worse, but even if it was just the young earth variety the "denialism" category would be inappropriate. Religious beliefs should not be categorized as "denial" under any circumstances.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 19:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm always wary of the term "denialism" and just prefer the less pejorative, and more broader term "pseudo-science". -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 10:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Guetterada in that this should still be placed in the category "denialism", since categories are navigational aids, and do not have to only apply to those things which are inherently under that category only (excuse my Slavic sentence structure -- I couldn't find any other way to put it). Especially with those who went beyond pseudoscience and into Scientific misconduct like Kent Hovind and his "gang". Wekn reven 18:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
166.248.66.32, you write like someone who is really fond of the sound of their own voice. This is a place for concise discussion of how to improve the article, not tl:dr walls of text. 68.116.168.154 ( talk) 23:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Mmm, argument by assertion, with a side of "from ignorance." Next time you flex that vocabulary, how about using four tildes so the bot doesn't have to clean up after you?
Sorry, guys, I'm done feeding this troll now. 68.116.168.154 ( talk) 23:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
God didn't need evolution to create anything. That would diminish his craftsmanship. No. The notion of a young earth creation, only a few thousand years old is the only logical alternative. If a scientist studies rock and it seems to show that they are billions of years old, it does not disproove the notion of a young earth because God created the world in a mature state. If one looked at Adam after God created him, Five minutes later, he might look 30 or 40. Does that mean that he is actually 30 or 40? No, because God created him to look 30 or 40. Jay72091 ( talk) 3:55PM 27 March 2012 CST —Preceding undated comment added 20:56, 27 March 2012 (UTC).
I have concern about the weight of this article. There is a Creation myth in every religion, but this article gives undue deference to historical Christian Creationism. This is perhaps due to the controversy of this belief in "the west" but it is still a minority held belief, while the majority of many "eastern" regions & their respective institutions still teach and maintain a Creationist belief. Yet, counter-intuitively the history, influences & diversity of specific origin myths of these & other religions are marginalized as the geographic dominance they may or may not hold. If this is because the main page has become a reference mostly sourcing the Christian Creationist myth & it's current controversies might there be plans to better streamline and title the information so that access to supporting information, while fully available, wouldn't dominate a specific topic?
I would also submit that the domination of the Christian (or perhaps better stated "western") Creationism makes the representation of other beliefs intrinsically harder to organize, communicate & source as the headings seem to be driven by a "western" Christian bias. An example would be in the beginning headings: Europe, Australia, South Korea, Americas, Islamic Countries. On it's face, there are 4 geographic labels that head topics in creationism and one geo-political/semi-religious label. The countries under the "Islamic countries" span across 3 separate continents. It's unclear why the distinction "islamic countries" rather than a geographical analysis is presented or if there is a value, but it does restrict or inhibit inclusion of geographical distinctions, even in Islamic dominated regions, very difficult. And making them understood in their geographical context, as allowed with the other subjects, near impossible. I understand the issues I raised are not trivial and don't expect immediate edits. I was just looking for input on the weight issue and the consideration of the bias, not in so much as it is unfair, but that it restricts the addition of appropriate research in many areas. A factor that underlies the "weight" issue, at least in part. I am not a wiki editor so if I have inappropriately raised issues I do apologize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.107.246.204 ( talk) 21:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
"A point of creation would be a place where science broke down. One would have to appeal to religion and the hand of God" — Stephen Hawking [6]
Am I the only one who thinks the above quote looks odd in the lead? Hawking is mentioned nowhere else in the article, there's no context, and to me it reads like Hawking is making a case for religion. The archives don't seem to have any previous discussion on the subject. Looks like it was added April 4th by Plasmic Physics ( talk · contribs). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 19:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began.
This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. —Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989.
Looks like the usual suspects have fired up ye old propaganda machine...
God and the Astronomers, Revisited brought to you by the oh so reliable*
Discovery Institute.
Here is the Hawking bit from the article...
While many of us may be OK with the idea of the big bang simply starting everything, physicists, including Hawking, tend to shy away from cosmic genesis. "A point of creation would be a place where science broke down. One would have to appeal to religion and the hand of God," Hawking told the meeting, at the University of Cambridge, in a pre-recorded speech.— Why physicists can't avoid a creation event
Apparently Hawking used the word God and Alexander Vilenkin talked about the need for a beginning via physics...
Vilenkin presented the failure of a beginningless eternal inflation at Hawking's 60th birthday party in 2002. He was back at the 70th party with more evidence that eternal inflation needs a good beginning. Still, he said it was news to him if that made Hawking change his mind about the need for an almighty God. There's no problem with a beginning, he said. "Historically people were uncomfortable because they didn't know what caused the beginning - it seemed to require something outside of physics. . . . Now we know there is a possibility of a natural creation of the universe," through the laws of quantum mechanics, something can come from nothing. Guth agreed. "We don't have a solid theory of how the universe originated," he added, "but that doesn't mean we have to invoke a deity." — Planet of the apes: Why were creationists cheered by Hawking's words?
Roll film. *Reliable if you need some anti-science propaganda with massive piles of dung on the side. — ArtifexMayhem ( talk) 02:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why does this article refer on more than one occasion to 'the Christian myth..'? The author may believe creation as described in Genesis is a myth, but that's entirely subjective...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.247.125 ( talk)
Right, except that the Bible isn't folklore and in modern usage, the term myth always implies something which is in no way true. I'm aware that this has been discussed in much more detail on other discussion pages, but my point is that other words could be used here - myth is incorrect and is used, I suspect, primarily by non-Christians in order to offend... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.247.125 ( talk) 20:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Something I feel worth pointing out is that
Universally used terms are often preferable to less widely distributed terms. Basically, it's best to keep it simple yet formal. For example, "wall" is prefered over "bulkhead" as most people will recognize wall whereas many people will get confused over bulkhead.
PCHS-NJROTC
(Messages)
03:46, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
The use of the words "Christian myth" do not portray a neutral standpoint. It should be changes to "biblical scripture", as this is not offensive to any user, and is not portraying Christian nor non-Christian standpoints. Francisoh7 ( talk) 02:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I would have to agree that the term "myth" is very misleading, not to mention highly objectionable to the majority of those who would consider their self to be creationists. If this page is suppose to be an unbiased page rather than coming across as naturalistic propaganda, it should be amended. Quintessential1 ( talk) 19:41, 3 March 2010 (UTC)JPD
This poll http://www.pollingreport.com/science.htm is proving contentious as to whether it should be included in this article and if so how phrased. To summarize the positions as I see it the nays say that the poll questioned people only about what they believed with regard to the creation of humans (10,000 BCE) and not the Earth. Therefore using the poll to justify the line "Young Earth creationist views are held by as many as 44%" is not correct. The other side, and I'm quoting Rossnixon from his/her summary "yes, but you will find there is no group of note than says both that the earth is billions of years old and humans are less than 10,000 years old". I think there are two issues here, not being able to find such a group (and I don't even know how to begin looking) does not justify reinterpreting the original article even if we're convinced the two versions practically mean the same thing -- we should not make those kinds of judgement calls and just use the original wording. The second issue is that it's been over 20 years since I held any religious belief but I'm almost positive that I did, at one point, believe that the Earth/universe was billions of years old but that humans were 6,000 - 10,000 years old (my need to reconcile science and religion). While I might have been unique in this belief as a young teenager I can't help but think I must have gotten it from other people. Yes, that's anecdotal, but I think that's all that's necessary to demonstrate that the possibility exists for groups of people to hold both views (Earth=billions, humans=thousands) which renders the current phrasing misleading. SQGibbon ( talk) 04:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
This passage here: Since the end of the 19th century, belief in creationism has decreased as scientific theories have been presented that may support more naturalistic explanations for the universe and for life.
Should be changed to: Since the end of the 19th century, belief in creationism has decreased as scientific theories have been presented that may support more realistic explanations for the universe and for life. Jbhf1 ( talk) 02:02, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
The article opens with the assertion that "Creationism is the religious belief..." The quoted statement is both sourced and true ... a lot of the time, anyway, but not in every instance. Implicit in the opening line is that creationism cannot be anything other than a religious belief. Given this implication, let's say (hypothetically) that I believe that X ("X" being any supernatural entity that feels personally meaningful to me, and--as it turns out--only to me) created all of everything because he/she/it simply wanted to. My belief would match the remainder of the article's definition of creationism. It would not, however, meet several definitions of "religion". If this belief contributes to my "selfhood", then it meets Thomas Luckmann's very broad definition of religion. Such a belief could fit quite nicely with Alfred North Whitehead's summary of religion as that which one does with one's "solitariness". Belief in X might be somewhat consistent with Paul Tillich's description of religion as that which makes one experience a sense of holiness and awe. X could, at least in theory, accomplish this for me. But consider Peter Berger, who stated that this meaningfulness must be of the sort that makes everything seem "humanly significant". Maybe my belief in X doesn't go quite that far. And it doesn't have to go so far as accepting that a God or saviour exists (in contrast to the belief that religion makes such acceptances); my "supernatural entity" could be nothing but a sentient blob of ectoplasm. Or consider Clifford Geertz, who saw religion as a "cultural system". If my belief is idiosyncratic, it's not a "cultural" system. And so on. I would change the line to something like, "Creationism is the belief, often of a religious nature, that..." What do others think about this suggestion? Cosmic Latte ( talk) 14:46, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and made this change. Please let me know if there are any problems with the change or with my rationale. Cosmic Latte ( talk) 12:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I have no other grievance apart from the (seemingly) hijacking of creationism by Christians. There are plenty of other earlier religions, myths and sagas that mention it. Creationism certainly dates from earlier times than the first century AD. Brutal Deluxe ( talk) 22:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
There is a user who is going back and changing all proper wiki-links in this article to an old article title. Now that old article title was only in effect for 2 months, and yet all the wiki-links were changed to match that. Somehow this user didn't object then. Now that the article is changed back, that user is pushing that the wiki-links remain the same. Does anyone else see this as pov-pushing? I certainly do. SAE ( talk) 03:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Why does one of the paragraphs reference the Lutheran church as a church that does not hold the Bible as applicable to the physical world? I am not trying to fight or argue, but as a Lutheran I am curious as to where this reference was acquired. To my understanding, nowhere in Lutheran doctrine is the Bible discounted as a source of knowledge of the physical world. Help? Prussian725 ( talk) 02:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll acknowledge upfront that I've recently taken issue with the opening line's introduction of creationism as a "religious belief". I backed off from that argument (i.e., the position that labeling creationism a religious belief was over-simplistic), pending a look at the source already provided. I haven't checked that source and haven't seen that anyone else has checked it, and I retain my final position that the legitimacy of the opening phrase hinges on what the source says. So, I do not mean to rehash my old/original position here. However, as I was editing the article today, I still sensed something awkward about the first line. The problem, IMO, is that it's simply redundant. Even if we understand religious belief as belief generally in a supernatural agency, what we ultimately have, in the assertion that "Creationism is [a] religious belief [about] a supernatural agency" is, "Creationism is a religious belief pertaining to the object of a religious belief." To avoid this sort of redundancy, I might suggest rephrasing the line as something like, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural, or religious, agency." Or, perhaps, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural agency of religious import." Or even, "Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural deity." Or just, "...the creation of a deity." Again, I acknowledge having raised (and relented on) a related theme a while back. I trust my fellow editors not to assume that I'm trying to push any particular POV (e.g., some form of naturalistic legitimation), but nonetheless offer evidence of my neutrality to any... shall I say, non-believers. ;-) Basically, regardless of whether or not the opening line is over-simplifying, I wonder if it might be overstating its idea. Cosmic Latte ( talk) 20:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I have the second edition of the book. I found this on page 114 regarding Creationism as a religious belief
"McLean v. Arkansas was tried in federal district court... The Arkansas ACLU would argue that because creation science was inherently a religious idea, its advocacy as required by Act 590 would violate the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution." That is what I can find on page 114. But it goes on further about the trial and how the defense was unwilling to use people from the ICR due to the fact that they wrote Christian apologetic material.
Essentially by passing Act 590, the state of Arkansas was acting in the advancement of religion (by allowing for the teaching of creation science). The Act was overturned in that court case because creation science is a religious belief. ZgokE ( talk) 21:53, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
Don’t be sorry, be specific. Point out the evidence (I maybe missed it), rather than simply be disdainful and patronising. Mannafredo ( talk) 14:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I am not advocating spontaeneous edits, but the most recent edit by a random IP has brought to light an uncited statement that I think deserves some sort of reference, since it does speak for literally millions of people around the globe. I understand that it does only say "many" Christians, but this language is somewhat floppy and does not entail any factual data. Thoughts? Prussian725 ( talk) 16:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
comes before other claims attributed to the source found at Miller, J. D.; Scott, EC; Okamoto, S (11 August 2006). "Public Acceptance of Evolution". Science. 313 (5788): 765–766. doi: 10.1126/science.1126746. PMID 16902112. For what it's worth, I think the "many" may fall into WP:WEASEL territory, but it's a claim clearly supported by the source (that outside of the US & Turkey, "Western" nations are far less literal in their interpretations of scripture and less antagonistic its relationship to science). — Scien tizzle 17:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)Many Christians around the world today accept evolution as the most likely explanation for the origins of species, and do not take a literal view of the Genesis creation narrative.
Shouldn't it be referred to as a theory, much like evolution? -- Iankap99 ( talk) 02:07, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Some 20 years ago in an archeology course at the University of Utah we were given a break down of how old the Evolution-Creationism debate was and what its origins were.
Neptunism vs Plutonism (18th century)
Catastrophism vs Uniformitarianism (Early 19th century before Darwin)
Creationism vs Evolution (19th century after Darwin)
Does anyone know of any books that support this concept that we could use as reliable references?-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 08:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Hi, if you're asking for reading material on the history of creationism, and thus the 'debate', then I'd recommend looking for works by Eugenie Scott, as head of the NCSE she's an authority on that kind of information. (edit, whoops, forgot to log in. also, not sure if her work will go back to pre-Darwinian times.) -- SeldooN ( talk) 23:40, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Biostratigraphy is far from my field, but the fossil record has always shown innumerable discontinuities, whose cause eluded the 19th Century geologist, such as Sedgwick. Modern ones have evidence of massive volcanoes, cosmic collisions, and other catastrophes. Explaining observed phenomena using only processes that take place uniformly and an Earth's age well over 6000 years was the passion of James Hutton, who mapped ... well, plutons in Scotland for decades. :-)
In England, at least, this was accepted; while it took a long time for the igneous nature of basalts to be accepted by continental geologists. They had been thought deposited by the 'great flood'. I do know that, though French publications were highly attractive, it wasn't until Bunsen's chemical work on lavas in Iceland that 'plutonism' replaced 'neptunism'. It was so hard to swallow that I'm not sure Germany's finest field geologist, von Buch, ever fully accepted it. I should think this debate would be important to creationists.
Uniformitarianism didn't exclude catastrophic changes in flora & fauna between the Cambrian, Ordovician, & Devonian periods and many hiatuses between. However, the success of explaining most of geological history by those slow & uniform changes seen today did require great periods of time. It was this that was presented in Lyell's text, which Darwin (I read) was influenced by. The 'great flood' was the only catastrophe drawn on by continental geologists; and this didn't agree well with stratigraphy (I have read Sedgwick: he was a plutonist); and the bending of strata by rushing water wasn't as attractive as the Scottish theories, which required deep burial & uplift. The 'uniformitarianism' vs 'catastrophism' (floods & wrath) debate would appear an important creationist debate as well.
BTW, I've a copy of Darwin's famous (short) paper on coral atolls. It seemed remarkably clever, to me, as a young geologist; and I assumed it had no trouble being accepted. However, I never read anything by A. Agassiz on reefs: his book, at least, was on Alpine glaciation and its role as a uniform force of geologic change. I've not read Darwin's observations on earthquakes, however.
In this collection of reprints are papers by Darwin on the important subject of differentiation of a volcanic rock by the floating of feldspar crystals, a reasonable (at the time) explanation of granite selvages parallel to foliation at the base of a granitic synform, careful measurements of sea cliffs containing littoral (shallow) sea shells, and a discussion of how life might appear to have formed suddenly at the base of the Cambrian: Darwin suggests, correctly, that metamorphism of the pre-Cambrian may have obscured any evidence. The excellent references, correct use of language, and impeccable reasoning suggests to me that Darwin was more than the competent geologist he claimed. Few, if any, geologists today write so well in such differing specialties. Geologist ( talk) 02:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I had never heard the word 'creationism' until I moved home to California, where I was stunned to be welcomed as an atheist, to be shunned. So, I've no special interest in knowing what a modern creationism is. (No offense, but I thought all had died out in the 19th Century.)
Two requirements that I don't seem to have would, however, appear necessary: (1) a belief that there must be some animosity between science and religion; and (2) a failure to recognize that religion is based upon faith, and science is based upon objective observation & measurement. Scientific truth is not religious truth. If one should have a deep, religious experience during a temporal lobe seizure (with sufficient clinical indications), can one not commune with God or with 'God within us' (our soul) during that seizure? (In fact, many mystics have experienced exactly that.) We have both subjective experiences and objective ones. I don't see a clash. A definition of 'creationism' should be written by a disinterested person; and that clearly isn't I.
Regularly I donate to the SPCA & Humane Society, and I'm very, very pleased, religiously, with the concept that all sentient being are relatives; though I'm ashamed at our arrogance and treatment of animals. I feel confident in stating that the first line of your definition should be changed. Geologist ( talk) 10:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Mather & Mason's book of fine reprints (from about 1480 to 1898, refernced above) contains samples of the best geologists' papers of the period covering Neptunism & Plutonism, and Uniformitarianism & Catastrophism. These were very important creationism debates that distilled from observation, the creation of 'geology' as a science. Von Buch did finally accept the igneous origin of basalt, Sedgwick's acceptance of 'Plutonism' appears, a ten page summary of Hutton's 'Theory of the Earth' is here, Lyell writes on Uniformitarianism, and Werner writes on the sedimentary origin of all rocks.
There should be many books in the History of Science on these debates; and Google Books and the Internet Archive should have many, public domain, full PDF books on these debates: they created geology and are most important. The articles should be fascinating. (My first geology course was to read Holmes's traditional text and Velikovsky's 'catastrophic' text, while evaluating the observations & conclusions by each. Good stuff.) If is BruceGrubb is near a university, the History of Science Department might have a specialist. Good luck. Geologist ( talk) 02:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Whilst reading though the article (at 04:15, mind you), I came to the conclusion that this whole thing must have been written in an effort to perpetuate the "science v religion" mentality, especially prevalent in the introduction. I though the point of a Wikipedia article was to inform about the topic at hand. It seems much of that could go into Creation–evolution controversy, being the more appropriate place for what is such a digression here. Ninjayofthefunk ( talk) 09:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm having trouble working out what the closing clause of this sentence from the Scientific critique section means ...
The "whilst" is confusing since it doesn't fit with the "disprove" on either side. One might expect a "prove" on one side of a "whilst" with a "disprove" on the other (i.e. "X is disproven whilst Y is proven"). More generally, the wording here could be expanded so it's clearer that Gould was eschewing creationism when he was talking about religion. That might make it easier to explain why exactly some scientists reject NOMA. Cheers, -- PLUMBAGO 09:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Review: Creationism and Its Critics in Antiquity | NCSE suggests a useful source for those with the time and interest to explore the philosophical origins of creationism. Also, A chance to explore Darwin's Universe | NCSE gives a link to a downloadable pdf of sample pages, including a brief though perhaps rather simplistic outline of Bryan's reasons for setting creationism off as an anti-evolution crusade. . . dave souza, talk 11:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the lead went on a rather offtopic discussion of the history of geology, when as sources show the term creationism developed as part of arguments over the origin of species, and indeed early creationists such as Bryan were firm believers in an ancient earth. I've therefore refocussed this paragraph on the origins of the controversy and usage of the term. The text and references I've removed are replicated below in case they're of use for the body of the article. . dave souza, talk 09:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
In the 19th century, British geologists and other scientists [1] [2] argued that the world was considerably older than the 17th-century, scripture-based calculation of less than six millennia. [3] [4] In the United States the apparent discrepancies between science and religion were seized upon and amplified in "cultural warfare" [5] [6] over whether science or religion could provide the most "authentically American" creation story. [5] By the 1920s, Biblical creationism had become "the standard alternative to" [7] scientific explanations of the biosphere.
The above info may be of use in the body of the text, but is rather too detailed or offtopic for the lead. . . dave souza, talk 09:42, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
From around the start of the nineteenth century, ideas such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck's concept of transmutation of species had gained a small number of supporters in Paris and Edinburgh, mostly amongst anatomists. [1] Britain at that time was enmeshed in the Napoleonic Wars, and fears of republican revolutions such as the American Revolution and French Revolution led to a harsh repression of such evolutionary ideas, which challenged the divine hierarchy justifying the monarchy. Charles Darwin's development of his theory of natural selection at this time was kept closely secret. Repression eased, and the anonymous publication of Vestiges of Creation in 1844 aroused wide public interest with support from Quakers and Unitarians, but was strongly criticised by the scientific community, which emphasized the need for solidly backed science. In 1859 Darwin's On the Origin of Species provided that evidence from an authoritative and respected source, and gradually convinced scientists that evolution occurs. This acceptance was resisted by conservative evangelicals in the Church of England, but their attention quickly turned to the much greater uproar about Essays and Reviews by liberal Anglican theologians, which introduced into the controversy " the higher criticism" begun by Erasmus centuries earlier. This book re-examined the Bible and cast doubt on a literal interpretation. [2] By 1875 most American naturalists supported ideas of theistic evolution, often involving special creation of human beings. [3]
At this time those holding that species had been separately created were generally called "advocates of creation", but they were occasionally called "creationists" in private correspondence between Charles Darwin and his friends. [4] The term appears in letters Darwin wrote between 1856 and 1863, [5] and was also used in a response by Charles Lyell. [6]
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Why is it that thoughout both this article and many others relating to creationism and evolution that the evolutionist side has the main and final points, and that the articles are written in such a way as to provide an unbalanced view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Banak ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
This article could use some more eyes. Dylan Flaherty ( talk) 03:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is definately slanted toward the evolutionary viewpoint. That seems odd given its subject. For instance, there very first sentence includes the unrelated phrase "religious belief". Like the evolutionary belief system, the creationism belief system uses the area of science to support itself. Those who only use some Biblical sources are misunderstanding the point of it all.
I believe that the real confusion comes in by not understanding the foundational issue of science, with the side issues of evolution and creation as interesting belief systems side-notes.
Evolutionists should have no business contributing to this article, any more than creationists should be expected to know about evolution. (True scientists need not apply in either case.) Without a clear basic understanding, the article's authors will never be able to reach the level of accuracy and truth necessary for a real encyclopedia. - KitchM ( talk) 23:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
This text reads to me to be biased. If you read the Bible literally then the solar day was created on the 4th day, and therefore the 7 days of creation cannot be solar days. So I do not understand how people taking a liberal view of the text, applying solar days to the first 3 days before the solar day was created, can be said to be literalists or fundamentalists. Anyone taking the text literally cannot do this. This was pointed out by St Augustine of Hippo so this is a valid orthodox historical view. Of course anyone is free to make any interpretation but please do not claim that they are taking the text literally which distorts their view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChilternGiant ( talk • contribs) 00:01, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
What exactly did St Augustine say about evolution and solar days in Genesis? The main article doesn't actually quote him and so could be slightly harder to understand.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Englishnotbritish ( talk • contribs) 19:18, 17 February 2011
In the "Re-Emergence in the United States" section I did a very minor cleanup. I simply removed a few extraneous commas in the first sentence, moved a link to United States to the term's first appearance in the section, and made a small change to correct repetitive wording (both of the first two sentences previously began with the phrase "In the United States" which seemed awkward to me). Hope no one minds. 98.116.207.197 ( talk) 19:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
The truth of this phrase would appear to be blindingly obvious as theistic evolution is the official position of, e.g., the Catholic Church, and is cited to Public Acceptance of Evolution, which states "Catholics and mainstream Protestants generally accept variations of a theological view known as theistic evolution, which views evolution as the means by which God brought about humans, as well as other organisms." clearly supporting this claim. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:46, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Any chance i can add a small section about Native American Creationism to the article? 86.10.119.131 ( talk) 18:57, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Archives 2-11 are, for some reason, redirects to archive 1. does anyone know if there is a reason for this? Farsight001 ( talk) 02:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
A minor edit skirmish has just occurred over this matter. I don't feel it's pejorative where I am in Australia. I'd be happy to be called an evolutionist. Is it different elsewhere? HiLo48 ( talk) 02:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
This revert is because the term "evolutionist" is considered pejorative and is used to somehow equilibrate religion to evolution. Religion is a belief. Evolution is a science. One does not "believe" in evolution. One accepts it based on the facts or on its merits. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 02:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Why is a secondary source better than a primary source when dealing with what creationists state that they believe? Dan Watts ( talk) 17:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
The table in the "Types of Biblical creationism" section totally misinterprets the referenced Gallup poll. It makes the error of correlating the 3 Gallup categories with the 5 listed creationist views. In fact, the first three creationist views correlate to the "God created humans in their present form" Gallup category, and the last two creationist views can correspond to either of the two other Gallup categories (humans evolved with/without God's help). The Gallup poll does not well-distinguish these views.
A more correct accounting is the first three creationist views are held by 40% and the last two are held by 54%.
173.172.51.3 ( talk) 04:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
I found it rather annoying when the article stated that "Maimonides described the story of Eve and the serpent as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts". This is an excerpt from his book, Guide for the Perplexed (chapter 30, paragraph 19), and, according to [5], what the scholar really said was: "The following is also a remarkable passage, most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with real facts, as will be found by those who understand all the chapters of this treatise. When the serpent came to Eve he infected her with poison; the Israelites, who stood at Mount Sinai, removed that poison; idolaters, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, have not got rid of it. Note this likewise. Again they said: "The tree of life extends over an area of five hundred years' journey, and it is from beneath it that all the waters of the creation sprang forth": and they added the explanation that this measure referred to the thickness of its body, and not to the extent of its branches, for they continue thus: "Not the extent of the branches thereof, but the stem thereof [korato, lit., 'its beam,' signifying here 'its stem') has a thickness of five hundred years' journey." This is now sufficiently clear. Again: "God has never shown the tree of knowledge [of good and evil] to man, nor will He ever show it." This is correct, for it must be so according to the nature of the Universe. Another noteworthy saying is this: "And the Lord God took the man, i.e., raised him, and placed him in the Garden of Eden," i.e., He gave him rest. The words "He took him," "He gave him, "have no reference to position in space, but they indicate his position in rank among transient beings, and the prominent character of his existence. Remarkable and noteworthy is the great wisdom contained in the names of Adam, Cain, and Abel, and in the fact that it was Cain who slew Abel in the field, that both of them perished, although the murderer had some respite, and that the existence of mankind is due to Seth alone. Comp. "For God has appointed me another seed" (iv. 25). This has proved true." He was talking about an extra-biblical source probably popular in the early 12th century. May I have someone's permission to delete the part about Maimonides? If you disagree with anything I've said, I'd be more than happy to reconsider. Thank you. Wekn reven i susej eht ( talk) 07:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
@ Wekn, it's very nice of you to offer your interpretations of the original text, but by suggesting getting Jewish editors to advise on the basis of their studies of old Hebrew literature, you've clearly missed the whole point of our no original research policy. Opinions on primary sources have to be based on reliable published secondary sources. In this case, Forster has published the opinion that this passage by Maimonides illustrates non-literal interpretation of the bible, specifically of the Genesis text. You don't even seem to differ from this general point, so there's no reason to remove the example. If you think our wording should be modified to reflect the views published by Forster more accurately, please suggest proposals for improving the wording. . . dave souza, talk 14:40, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Backs up what claim? The claim that Maimonides' argues that much of the Bible should be read figuratively and not literally? Well, you say that you have read Guide both in English and in Hebrew (although I am stil not sure how this matters) means that you surely found this passage:
Slrubenstein | Talk 05:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
While translating and understanding ancient texts is worthy, for our purposes we need to base the article on reliable secondary sources discussing the implications of that primary source for the subject. From Forster, Roger; Marston, Dr Paul (2001). "Chapter 7 - Genesis Through History". Reason Science and Faith. Chester, England: Monarch Books. ISBN 1854244418 –
Maimonides, for example, probably the greatest Jewish exegete after Rashi, is quite explicit that parts of Genesis 1-3 cannot be taken literally. In, eg, the context of the snake, Eve and the tree of life, Maimonides has:
"The following is also a remarkable passage, most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts, as will be found by those who understand all the chapters of this treatise."
At present the article says
The tradition of such writers as
Abraham ibn Ezra consistently rejected overly literal understandings of Genesis, and
Maimonides described the story of
Eve and the serpent as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts".
Here's a suggested modification:
The tradition of such writers as
Abraham ibn Ezra consistently rejected overly literal understandings of Genesis.
Maimonides discussed a treatise on
Eve, the serpent and the
tree of life, as "most absurd in its literal sense; but as an allegory it contains wonderful wisdom, and fully agrees with the real facts".
dave souza,
talk
11:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
I think the discussion here ought to be about whether or not the secondary source used is reliable. If the secondary source has indeed made a blatantly incorrect assessment of the primary source, then it is not usable. If it is a reasonable assessment of the primary source then it is fine. If you are unsure as to the reliability of the source then the content should be removed until further evidence is found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkennedy561 ( talk • contribs) 12:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Quote: "The significantly higher percentage of Republicans who choose a creationist view of human origins reflects in part the strong relationship between religion and politics in contemporary America. Republicans are significantly more likely to attend church weekly than are others, and, as noted, Americans who attend church weekly are most likely to select the creationist alternative for the origin of humans." Four in 10 Americans Believe in Strict Creationism-Belief in evolutionary origins of humans slowly rising, however, GALLUP.-- 87.178.104.202 ( talk) 21:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Liberal Lutherans such as the ELCA support evolution.
Conservative Lutherans such as the LCMS and WELS oppose evolution.
Db63376 ( talk) 18:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)db63376
I question why this irrelevant section was put in the article, especially when there is no Creationism section in the Evolution article. If anyone can come up with a logical reason why it is in the article, I would like to know a logical reason why there is no creationism section in the Evolution article.-- Jacksoncw ( talk) 22:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
By the way, you shouldn't quote Wikipedia articles to argue factual points, especially not on Wikipedia. Since, you know, you may well be arguing with the people who wrote the article. And the best you are likely to get is an admission that they didn't write as clearly as they should have. Guettarda ( talk) 02:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Clearly the article does not convey that message very well. That's not the message I was getting at all. Might I reccomend specifying that extremely broad and extremely vague description in the lede. Because what I got was that Creationism is the belief that a supernatural being created everything, which has been around for thousands of years.-- Jacksoncw ( talk) 03:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
As late as the 1920s antievolutionists chose to dedicate their organizations to "Christian Fundamentals," "Anti-Evolution," and "Anti-False Science," not to creationism. It was not until 1929 that one of George McCready Price’s former students, the Seventh-day Adventist biologist Harold W. Clark, explicitly packaged Price’s new catastrophism as "creationism." In a brief self-published book titled Back to Creationism Clark urged readers to quit simply opposing evolution and to adopt the new "science of creationism," by which he meant Price’s flood geology. For decades to come various Christian groups, from flood geologists to theistic evolutionists, squabbled over which camp most deserved to use the creationist label. However, by the 1980s the flood geologists/scientific creationists had clearly co-opted the term for their distinctive interpretation of earth history.
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
This paragraph belongs in either the Evolution page or the Creation-Evolution Controversy page, period. It contains no information in understanding the concept of Creationism and displays a bias that does not belong in an encyclopedia article. The Creation-Evolution Controversy page is ALWAYS going to try to creep in here and everywhere else it can via people with their own agenda. I hope Wiki doesn't lose its integrity and cleans this article up from everything that is not Creationism information. Thinktank33 ( talk) 16:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
It appears that under the Movements section Judaism has two sections. Can these be consolidated? Mthoodhood ( talk) 19:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Diff Weasel words are unsupported attributions, such as "It is said that" without naming who said it. Here the issue is about differences such as the one between "claimed" and "said" in contexts such as "... intelligent design, which was subsequently claimed to be a new scientific theory."
WP:CLAIM does not forbid the use of words such as "claim," but calls for them to be used judiciously.
In this context the word "claim" is correct, since the statement's credibility was indeed called into question in court, in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District. The judge's ruling explicitly stated that The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.
__ Just plain Bill ( talk) 12:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The article claims that creationism rejects scientific conclusions. This claim is wrong. The truth is, that evolutionism rejects scientific findings, as anyone knows who is familiar with the topic. 18:33, 22 November 2011 (CET) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.162.68.39 ( talk)
I propose a different name for the section... Judaism has its own section slightly further down the page that focuses more specifically on Judaism. The section that was formerly titled " Judaism and Christianity" seems to change focus from first Christianity (with a minor mention of old Jewish views; which are covered in the history section anyhow) then focuses entirely on the Bible. user:Mthoodhood brought the point up a month ago and suggested the two sections were consolidated... but there's nothing more than two sentences on Judaism to consolidate from the first section.
Maybe a little too bold in changing the name of the section to just "Christianity", but to include Judaism in the title seems misleading and confusing. Perhaps a better title would be something like "Biblical interpretation vs. Genesis", because the whole section and the sub-sections are about biblical interpretation and Christian views. Peter ( talk) 17:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
So, if this article is about the 're-branding of anti-evolution which responded to the growing evidence for evolution and its general acceptance in science' (Dave Souza, an earlier post), where is the article on Creationism as a belief that a supreme being created the world (not necessarily restricted to modern times)? Should there be an in-article separation or two separate articles or no article...ideas, anyone? Wekn reven i susej eht Talk• Follow 14:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a section on Theistic Evolution? It is the belief that God created everything by means of what has been discovered in science. Technically it is a form of Creationism, so is it possible for it to have a section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.223.184 ( talk) 21:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
The 'Creationism internationally' section is a complete dog's breakfast. We have TE & the Catholic Church tossed in there, as well as various individual European and Middle-Eastern countries listed independently of 'Europe and Middle East' and 'Islamic countries'. The forms of creationism are currently discussed as an (un-ToC-listed) section called 'Types of Biblical creationism' within the Christianity section. This is ludicrously improper WP:WEIGHTing. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
(The lack of ToC listing was due to a limiter-tag. I've restructured things so that they're hopefully in a more easy-to-find hierarchy -- with 'internationally' divided up by continent, and the forms of creationism no longer in a sub-sub-sub-sub-category.) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Can we have a section on this that is more conspicuous? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.223.184 ( talk) 03:48, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 02:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
MOS:CAPS#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents states "In a biblical context 'God' is always capitalized when referring to the Judeo-Christian deity". This means that Abrahamic god should be replaced by Abrahamic God, and the former should probably be WP:RFDed. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 05:27, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I actually agree with Hrafn. I think it does need to be changed to "Abrahamic God". Zenkai251 ( talk) 01:15, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() |
Whack! You've been whacked with a wet trout. Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly. |
(i) I am not a Christian ("selfish" or otherwise -- as most regulars on this article are aware). (ii) I (a) believe their is "doubt" due to "God" in the English language being in the grey area between proper and common noun, and am in favour of following MOS on this.
All of which means that HiLo48 is completely talking out their arse.
Hrafn
Talk
Stalk(
P)
14:17, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok, that's just a fairly daft debate. It's THE abrahamic God; i.e. there is only one. And His commonly used name is "God". If I had a pet cat whose name was "Mongommery the Third", but whose nickname was "Cat", it would be perfectly reasonably for me to use "Cat" as ether a proper noun; "my tabby Cat" or a common noun; "my tabby cat". Plus, God is that accepted usage. Grammar is full of exceptions/compromises. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.50.102 ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Note It seems like most people are in favor of the change. Have we reached a consensus? Zenkai251 ( talk) 21:27, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
The chart Response to the Statement, "Human Beings, as We Know Them, Developed from Earlier Species of Animals appears twice in this article, first at Creationism internationally and then again at Prevalence. I haven't even attempted to read this whole article, but it appears there's at least some overlap or duplication of discussion as well. My impression is that some general cleanup and organizing of the whole article would help a great deal. Milkunderwood ( talk) 05:38, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
In the "Creationism internationally" paragraph, it is stated that creationism has an effect on scientists, universities or society in European countries. No, it does not have one. Not at all. The whole paragraph should be deleted until proof can be shown that officially approved European educational institutions such as legal universities even have creationism as a topic of their scientific research. Otherwise, this whole article is totally biased junk and a marketing tool for a cult. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.157.55.84 ( talk) 16:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
The article is POV if it suggests that all Christians are by definition Creationists. The dictionary definition indicates that Creationism is specifically belief in the literal interpretation of the Creation Account in Genesis, or specifically that Creationism is the counterpoised to evolution. It therefore gives the inaccurate perception that all Christians consider that the Creation account is to be interpreted literally and that evolution is not accepted in Christianity. This is clearly not the case, certainly as far as mainstream Christianity is concerned and it is misleading to give the impression that all Christians are exclusively ideologically Creationist. JohnArmagh ( talk) 16:42, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems odd that these two sections are separate, let alone have a whole load of material between them. Is there a particular reason for this that I'm missing? If not, I'd suggest making the latter a subsection of the former, possibly moving the last part of "Prevalence" on the education issues in the US elsewhere or making it into a separate section. Dr Marcus Hill ( talk) 12:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
British geneticist and evolutionary biologist, J B S Haldane, observed that the Dasavataras (ten principal avatars of Lord Vishnu) are a true sequential depiction of the great unfolding of evolution.[8] The avatars of Vishnu show an uncanny similarity to the biological theory of evolution of life on earth.[9] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.26.223.225 ( talk) 12:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
This article pertains solely to a religious belief. We do not categorize theism as "denialism" or any other religious belief as "denialism" because this runs up against WP:NPOV. It is not our place to judge the truth of any particular religious view. Creationism can encompass young earth creationism or theistic evolution so it is even worse, but even if it was just the young earth variety the "denialism" category would be inappropriate. Religious beliefs should not be categorized as "denial" under any circumstances.-- The Devil's Advocate ( talk) 19:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm always wary of the term "denialism" and just prefer the less pejorative, and more broader term "pseudo-science". -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 10:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Guetterada in that this should still be placed in the category "denialism", since categories are navigational aids, and do not have to only apply to those things which are inherently under that category only (excuse my Slavic sentence structure -- I couldn't find any other way to put it). Especially with those who went beyond pseudoscience and into Scientific misconduct like Kent Hovind and his "gang". Wekn reven 18:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
166.248.66.32, you write like someone who is really fond of the sound of their own voice. This is a place for concise discussion of how to improve the article, not tl:dr walls of text. 68.116.168.154 ( talk) 23:20, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Mmm, argument by assertion, with a side of "from ignorance." Next time you flex that vocabulary, how about using four tildes so the bot doesn't have to clean up after you?
Sorry, guys, I'm done feeding this troll now. 68.116.168.154 ( talk) 23:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
God didn't need evolution to create anything. That would diminish his craftsmanship. No. The notion of a young earth creation, only a few thousand years old is the only logical alternative. If a scientist studies rock and it seems to show that they are billions of years old, it does not disproove the notion of a young earth because God created the world in a mature state. If one looked at Adam after God created him, Five minutes later, he might look 30 or 40. Does that mean that he is actually 30 or 40? No, because God created him to look 30 or 40. Jay72091 ( talk) 3:55PM 27 March 2012 CST —Preceding undated comment added 20:56, 27 March 2012 (UTC).
I have concern about the weight of this article. There is a Creation myth in every religion, but this article gives undue deference to historical Christian Creationism. This is perhaps due to the controversy of this belief in "the west" but it is still a minority held belief, while the majority of many "eastern" regions & their respective institutions still teach and maintain a Creationist belief. Yet, counter-intuitively the history, influences & diversity of specific origin myths of these & other religions are marginalized as the geographic dominance they may or may not hold. If this is because the main page has become a reference mostly sourcing the Christian Creationist myth & it's current controversies might there be plans to better streamline and title the information so that access to supporting information, while fully available, wouldn't dominate a specific topic?
I would also submit that the domination of the Christian (or perhaps better stated "western") Creationism makes the representation of other beliefs intrinsically harder to organize, communicate & source as the headings seem to be driven by a "western" Christian bias. An example would be in the beginning headings: Europe, Australia, South Korea, Americas, Islamic Countries. On it's face, there are 4 geographic labels that head topics in creationism and one geo-political/semi-religious label. The countries under the "Islamic countries" span across 3 separate continents. It's unclear why the distinction "islamic countries" rather than a geographical analysis is presented or if there is a value, but it does restrict or inhibit inclusion of geographical distinctions, even in Islamic dominated regions, very difficult. And making them understood in their geographical context, as allowed with the other subjects, near impossible. I understand the issues I raised are not trivial and don't expect immediate edits. I was just looking for input on the weight issue and the consideration of the bias, not in so much as it is unfair, but that it restricts the addition of appropriate research in many areas. A factor that underlies the "weight" issue, at least in part. I am not a wiki editor so if I have inappropriately raised issues I do apologize. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.107.246.204 ( talk) 21:10, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
"A point of creation would be a place where science broke down. One would have to appeal to religion and the hand of God" — Stephen Hawking [6]
Am I the only one who thinks the above quote looks odd in the lead? Hawking is mentioned nowhere else in the article, there's no context, and to me it reads like Hawking is making a case for religion. The archives don't seem to have any previous discussion on the subject. Looks like it was added April 4th by Plasmic Physics ( talk · contribs). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 19:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide how the universe began.
This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary. —Stephen W. Hawking, Der Spiegel, 1989.
Looks like the usual suspects have fired up ye old propaganda machine...
God and the Astronomers, Revisited brought to you by the oh so reliable*
Discovery Institute.
Here is the Hawking bit from the article...
While many of us may be OK with the idea of the big bang simply starting everything, physicists, including Hawking, tend to shy away from cosmic genesis. "A point of creation would be a place where science broke down. One would have to appeal to religion and the hand of God," Hawking told the meeting, at the University of Cambridge, in a pre-recorded speech.— Why physicists can't avoid a creation event
Apparently Hawking used the word God and Alexander Vilenkin talked about the need for a beginning via physics...
Vilenkin presented the failure of a beginningless eternal inflation at Hawking's 60th birthday party in 2002. He was back at the 70th party with more evidence that eternal inflation needs a good beginning. Still, he said it was news to him if that made Hawking change his mind about the need for an almighty God. There's no problem with a beginning, he said. "Historically people were uncomfortable because they didn't know what caused the beginning - it seemed to require something outside of physics. . . . Now we know there is a possibility of a natural creation of the universe," through the laws of quantum mechanics, something can come from nothing. Guth agreed. "We don't have a solid theory of how the universe originated," he added, "but that doesn't mean we have to invoke a deity." — Planet of the apes: Why were creationists cheered by Hawking's words?
Roll film. *Reliable if you need some anti-science propaganda with massive piles of dung on the side. — ArtifexMayhem ( talk) 02:22, 11 April 2012 (UTC)