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Cotswold Games were organized by
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A good portion of this article relies on Haddon 2004. However, Celia Haddon is neither a historian nor particularly qualified to be considered an authority on this matter. Haddon normally writes about cats. [1] – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 04:06, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
This is what I've found for Haddon, which I'm sure you'll agree, MJL, is pretty varied and extensive. That should satisfy your concerns that she's, somewhat bizarrely, unreliable for being a writer on feline habits; unless of course you're purely here to grind an axe, that is? Cassianto Talk 17:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.[ emphasis added
Material such as an article or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars.The distinct difference is the inclusion of books (and stronger advisement). ( edit conflict) – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 18:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Jeni, please be more careful when reverting during an ongoing discussion. You need to be more aware of your surroundings before unilaterally reverting on a featured article. Eric, are you happy for the inserted reference to be used? If so, I'll restore. Cassianto Talk 09:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
References
MJL's comment above about the second paragraph of the origins section demonstrates very clearly to me that he does not take the trouble to read the sources he produces. Eric Corbett 13:20, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
these people.
If you want to replace what you consider to be unreliable sources with ones that you consider to be more reliable and which act as a direct replacement for verifying the statement in question then that's a discussion worth having. However, I don't think Haddon is unreliable per se, unless you have sources which contradict her (in which case we would probably need to show both). - Sitush ( talk) 20:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
If so, were Robert Dover's Olimpick Games eventually closed by a puritanically-minded clergyman and his supporters, rather like the "refinèd clergy" that originally inspired Robert Dover to create his Olimpick Games to confront?but there doesn't seem to be anything before that which ties in with it and indeed much of what is said earlier in the paper is referencing the debate about nationhood and the desire to hark back to "traditional England" etc. - Sitush ( talk) 20:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Pugilism played a central role in British culture's attempt to identify itself with classical models ... Boxing had first appeared in the Olympic Games in 688 BC, while 'boxing' matches, with prizes at stake, are described in both the Iliad and the Aeneid. A desire to imitate these precedents was apparent in England as early as 1636, when Robert Dover's 'Olimpick Games', held in the Cotswolds, included pugilistic contests modelled on that which took place between Entellus and Dares in the Aeneid ... an enthusiasm for sports more generally spread rapidly in the seventeenth century, despite the Puritans' dislike of activities which appeared to cultivate bodily prowess and beauty for their own sakes. The classical models of societies in which sports were both valued in themselves, and played a part in the development of martial prowess, became increasingly influential, providing a kind of retrospective justification for a social development which was in fact unique and wholly indigenous.So, again, not a theological thing even though it was running (sic) against the Puritans. We have to be careful not to emphasise something by extrapolating motivation, as it increasingly seems that MJL may have done - that would be synthesis/original research. - Sitush ( talk) 05:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Though it is possible to oversimplify the degree of regulation sought by each side (Catholic versus Protestant, Royalist or Parliamentarian, pleasure-seeking as opposed to the pious) Dover's reimagine Olimpick Games took the title both to secularize and gentrify proceedings. They also drew on much older traditions of the British sportscape, including traditional ales and rural festivities.- Sitush ( talk) 05:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Brookes, no doubt, inspired by the legend of Robert Dover and the Cotswold Olimpick Games that were established centuries before (as a celebration of the alcohol-fuelled rough play of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century Britain) ...No theology there, although of course the Puritans were opposed to alcohol along with everything else that might be considered as relaxation, entertainment or fun. - Sitush ( talk) 05:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Dover may have wanted to put the Puritans in their place. He may have wanted to extol Catholic virtues. But people are difficult to manipulate, especially Cotswold people, particularly for propaganda purposes. Had his activities been mainly political, they would have been little more than a nine day’s wonder, particularly as Dover was not a native of the area. It seems more likely that Dover gave expression to a feeling that national pride should be reawakened, and that, for many people, was synonymous with an idealistic view of the Greek festivals.here. - Sitush ( talk) 07:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
When Robert Dover, a Catholic Royalist, staged his first Cotswold Olimpicks in 1612 as an antidote to the Puritanism sweeping the land, it made them the first public games to have used the Olympic brand since the ancient celebrations had been abolished more than 1,000 years before.However, the source that discusses the subject the most, and I find to be the most reliable, is Radford (who is more than a
former athleteas Nick states below). Radford attributes the narrative of the games in the context of nationhood as a simple part of the religious message with which both Robert Dover and Michael Drayton (who was among the poets to contribute to Annalia Dubrensis). There's no stellar quote that says this, but he connects the Greek imagery of the games rather well with the anti-puritan message that it had set out to make. In asking
What is England?, Radford claims that the nation was something of the distant past.. more akin to Greece than the ever growing Puritanical elements which were then sweeping the country. ( edit conflict) – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 19:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Instituted in 1612, the Cotswold Games were firmly placed within the revivalist tradition which attempted to rescue popular recreations from the clutches of Puritan opposition and to recreate the 'Golden Age', or 'Merrie England'. Robert Dover transformed the traditional Whitsun Ales of Chipping Campden and Weston-Sub-Edge (in Gloucestershire) into a 'civilized' occasion for communal celebration and sporting achievement based on the Greek model of the Olympics.
[T]o rescue popular recreations from the clutches of Puritan opposition and to recreate the 'Golden Age', or 'Merrie England'is precisely my point - it had no theological basis per se but was in reaction to something that did have such a basis. The sources are clear and that you cannot understand them is worrying; perhaps no wonder, then, that a recent GAN in which you have been involved had so many problems. - Sitush ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
MJL generally what we do when someone disputes a source or a claim, is suggest alternate wording. I've taken a look at the sources, dug through Jstor, found that Haddon is quite well cited on Google scholar, and all I'm seeing a the well-established theme of nostalgic national pride, to paraphrase broadly. Dunno if you've had the pleasure of reading Poly-Olbion (I have, back in the mists of time), and the sentiment at the time was hearkening back to Arthurian England. Please use the talk page to post a suggested edit with appropriate sourcing that validates the claim the games were theological. In other words, we need proof that rather in reaction to Puritanism, which is established, to your claim that there's theology involved. Thanks. Victoria ( tk) 17:09, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree with Sitush in this case - Haddon can't be dismissed out of hand. -- Nick ( talk) 20:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
his disputewas a typo and you meant
this dispute. Can you please make that correction? – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 22:35, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cotswold Olimpick Games article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Cotswold Olimpick Games is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 31, 2013. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 18, 2005. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the
Cotswold Games were organized by
Robert Dover as a protest against
Puritanism in the early
17th century? |
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A good portion of this article relies on Haddon 2004. However, Celia Haddon is neither a historian nor particularly qualified to be considered an authority on this matter. Haddon normally writes about cats. [1] – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 04:06, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
This is what I've found for Haddon, which I'm sure you'll agree, MJL, is pretty varied and extensive. That should satisfy your concerns that she's, somewhat bizarrely, unreliable for being a writer on feline habits; unless of course you're purely here to grind an axe, that is? Cassianto Talk 17:49, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.[ emphasis added
Material such as an article or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable. If the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses, generally it has been at least preliminarily vetted by one or more other scholars.The distinct difference is the inclusion of books (and stronger advisement). ( edit conflict) – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 18:52, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Jeni, please be more careful when reverting during an ongoing discussion. You need to be more aware of your surroundings before unilaterally reverting on a featured article. Eric, are you happy for the inserted reference to be used? If so, I'll restore. Cassianto Talk 09:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
References
MJL's comment above about the second paragraph of the origins section demonstrates very clearly to me that he does not take the trouble to read the sources he produces. Eric Corbett 13:20, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
these people.
If you want to replace what you consider to be unreliable sources with ones that you consider to be more reliable and which act as a direct replacement for verifying the statement in question then that's a discussion worth having. However, I don't think Haddon is unreliable per se, unless you have sources which contradict her (in which case we would probably need to show both). - Sitush ( talk) 20:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
If so, were Robert Dover's Olimpick Games eventually closed by a puritanically-minded clergyman and his supporters, rather like the "refinèd clergy" that originally inspired Robert Dover to create his Olimpick Games to confront?but there doesn't seem to be anything before that which ties in with it and indeed much of what is said earlier in the paper is referencing the debate about nationhood and the desire to hark back to "traditional England" etc. - Sitush ( talk) 20:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Pugilism played a central role in British culture's attempt to identify itself with classical models ... Boxing had first appeared in the Olympic Games in 688 BC, while 'boxing' matches, with prizes at stake, are described in both the Iliad and the Aeneid. A desire to imitate these precedents was apparent in England as early as 1636, when Robert Dover's 'Olimpick Games', held in the Cotswolds, included pugilistic contests modelled on that which took place between Entellus and Dares in the Aeneid ... an enthusiasm for sports more generally spread rapidly in the seventeenth century, despite the Puritans' dislike of activities which appeared to cultivate bodily prowess and beauty for their own sakes. The classical models of societies in which sports were both valued in themselves, and played a part in the development of martial prowess, became increasingly influential, providing a kind of retrospective justification for a social development which was in fact unique and wholly indigenous.So, again, not a theological thing even though it was running (sic) against the Puritans. We have to be careful not to emphasise something by extrapolating motivation, as it increasingly seems that MJL may have done - that would be synthesis/original research. - Sitush ( talk) 05:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Though it is possible to oversimplify the degree of regulation sought by each side (Catholic versus Protestant, Royalist or Parliamentarian, pleasure-seeking as opposed to the pious) Dover's reimagine Olimpick Games took the title both to secularize and gentrify proceedings. They also drew on much older traditions of the British sportscape, including traditional ales and rural festivities.- Sitush ( talk) 05:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Brookes, no doubt, inspired by the legend of Robert Dover and the Cotswold Olimpick Games that were established centuries before (as a celebration of the alcohol-fuelled rough play of late sixteenth and early seventeenth century Britain) ...No theology there, although of course the Puritans were opposed to alcohol along with everything else that might be considered as relaxation, entertainment or fun. - Sitush ( talk) 05:58, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Dover may have wanted to put the Puritans in their place. He may have wanted to extol Catholic virtues. But people are difficult to manipulate, especially Cotswold people, particularly for propaganda purposes. Had his activities been mainly political, they would have been little more than a nine day’s wonder, particularly as Dover was not a native of the area. It seems more likely that Dover gave expression to a feeling that national pride should be reawakened, and that, for many people, was synonymous with an idealistic view of the Greek festivals.here. - Sitush ( talk) 07:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
When Robert Dover, a Catholic Royalist, staged his first Cotswold Olimpicks in 1612 as an antidote to the Puritanism sweeping the land, it made them the first public games to have used the Olympic brand since the ancient celebrations had been abolished more than 1,000 years before.However, the source that discusses the subject the most, and I find to be the most reliable, is Radford (who is more than a
former athleteas Nick states below). Radford attributes the narrative of the games in the context of nationhood as a simple part of the religious message with which both Robert Dover and Michael Drayton (who was among the poets to contribute to Annalia Dubrensis). There's no stellar quote that says this, but he connects the Greek imagery of the games rather well with the anti-puritan message that it had set out to make. In asking
What is England?, Radford claims that the nation was something of the distant past.. more akin to Greece than the ever growing Puritanical elements which were then sweeping the country. ( edit conflict) – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 19:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Instituted in 1612, the Cotswold Games were firmly placed within the revivalist tradition which attempted to rescue popular recreations from the clutches of Puritan opposition and to recreate the 'Golden Age', or 'Merrie England'. Robert Dover transformed the traditional Whitsun Ales of Chipping Campden and Weston-Sub-Edge (in Gloucestershire) into a 'civilized' occasion for communal celebration and sporting achievement based on the Greek model of the Olympics.
[T]o rescue popular recreations from the clutches of Puritan opposition and to recreate the 'Golden Age', or 'Merrie England'is precisely my point - it had no theological basis per se but was in reaction to something that did have such a basis. The sources are clear and that you cannot understand them is worrying; perhaps no wonder, then, that a recent GAN in which you have been involved had so many problems. - Sitush ( talk) 01:06, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
MJL generally what we do when someone disputes a source or a claim, is suggest alternate wording. I've taken a look at the sources, dug through Jstor, found that Haddon is quite well cited on Google scholar, and all I'm seeing a the well-established theme of nostalgic national pride, to paraphrase broadly. Dunno if you've had the pleasure of reading Poly-Olbion (I have, back in the mists of time), and the sentiment at the time was hearkening back to Arthurian England. Please use the talk page to post a suggested edit with appropriate sourcing that validates the claim the games were theological. In other words, we need proof that rather in reaction to Puritanism, which is established, to your claim that there's theology involved. Thanks. Victoria ( tk) 17:09, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
I have to agree with Sitush in this case - Haddon can't be dismissed out of hand. -- Nick ( talk) 20:39, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
his disputewas a typo and you meant
this dispute. Can you please make that correction? – MJL ‐Talk‐ ☖ 22:35, 19 August 2019 (UTC)