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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to be, in the footnotes I've gone through, anything that defines the boundaries of the Cooper Square area. The claim of it being merely the red area in the map — which is not an official map but just someone's own work — appears to be uncited and possibly an original-research claim. In fact, the Cooper Square Association says here that the area is much larger: "In 1959, Robert Moses had designated a 12-block area from Ninth St. to Delancey St. as the Cooper Square Urban Renewal Area, and hundreds of buildings were to be taken through eminent domain, and slated for demolition in order to build middle-income housing." This needs to be addressed. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 21:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
First, you made a bold edit (i.e. adding tags on your own, not with a previous discussion behind them), I reverted it. The next step is discussion, NOT your reverting again, so I'm going to, one more time, restore the article to the status quo ante, and the discussion can continue.
Second, I have all the evidence lined up and ready to present that the definition of the street Cooper Square is precisely as I've given it in this article, but there's quite a lot of it, and it would time some time to present, so I'd rather not. If you'd like to AGF that I have the evidence, that's fine, but if you can't bring yourself to do that, I will put it here -- you just let me know here. Thanks. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 07:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Tenebrae, actually I was the editor who originated the verbiage you're accusing BYK of taking proprietary measures over, as when I created this article as a stub with, "It is fed directly from the south by Bowery at East Fourth Street which becomes Third Avenue after Saint Mark's Place. The northweast corner borders Saint Mark's Place, while the northwest corner borders Astor Place." This, being the bounds of the street itself, is self-evident. Arguing against such prima facie sourcing as that is akin to asking for citing present to the sky being blue. JesseRafe ( talk) 19:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph do not cite the boundaries of Cooper Square. (The first footnote is a comment, not a source.) I believe under basic WP:VERIFY a cite should be given for the claimed boundaries. The uncited boundaries are not what the Cooper Square Association itself gives. I believe tagging the page to request citations and to caution of original research is necessary, but an editor who wrote the bulk of the article refuses to allow it to be tagged. This is a request for comment over whether it is appropriate to remove the tags without adding citations. Please note it is protocol not to edit the disputed section while an RfC is in progress. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 19:37, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Please note that it is protocol to wait until after the conclusion of the RfC to edit the article. One does not open a Request for Comments from other editors and then put the article into the state you hope the RfC will result it. Thanks, Beyond My Ken ( talk) 19:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Given the nature of this article, if the article is going define the boundaries (a key piece of information), then reliable sources do need to be given if they can be found. Tenebrae is correct in keeping the citation requests on the page. Which quite frankly would do nothing but improve the article further. It is not appropriate behaviour for an editor to remove tags without addressing the reason for their placement. I notice from an edit summary that Beyond My Ken explained that the reason for his removal was that a month had passed, there is no time limit on Tags. Some tags I have seen have been on articles for months, if not years before.
Beyond My Ken your attitudes towards the removal of the tags, as Tenebrae has already said, would imply that you are taking their additions personally and that you feel you (intentionally or not) that you own the article and are against their additions. If this is about facts as you so adamantly claim, then it shouldnt be too difficult to come up with some verifiable facts from reliable sources. MisterShiney ✉ 21:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken is 100% right here. This is about the road named Cooper Square, not about the Business Improvement District. For the record, there is no "neighborhood" called Cooper Square, but many such neighborhoods are the result of enterprising and industrious realtors. New York City, London, and other metropolises are [in-]famous for names of neighborhoods arising overnight completely without the knowledge of their inhabitants. As such, the Cooper Square Association's bailiwick is beyond irrelevant. For comparison look at the list of BIDs here: http://www.nycbidassociation.org - It would be absurd to use any of these as criteria for determining where Union Square or Fifth Avenue are. Tenebrae seems to fundamentally misunderstand what this article is about. It is about a street. Not the park enclosed within it, not the entities abutting it, and not the nebulous names of the area it's in, but the street called Cooper Square which cannot be be more self-defined than it is. Any opinion to the contrary is purely overly-bureaucratic rule-mongering and failing to look at the article before the "rule book". JesseRafe ( talk) 02:54, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that I understand the cause of all this. After further exploration of Beyond My Ken's user sub-page, I think it is safe to say that said user seems to have some issue with tags and thinks that they are vandalism and therefore may be trying to prove a point on this article and taking it particularly personally that they have been added to a page he actively edits. Especially seeing as he see's them as and I quote:
He seems to feel very strongly about this which may go some way to describe his attitude in this conversation. MisterShiney ✉ 22:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Whilst I appreciate the time and effort that went into finding this information, this is an incorrect way to reference a work that is not standard for ANY manual of style, let alone Wikipedia as it is just effectively a chunk of information. I have therefore removed it and placed it here for another editor to incorporate properly into the article or to cite the works properly it references into the article. It is basically a chuck of information which is being used a source which if you look at it carefully has it's own sources within sources.
Here is the reference: According to New York City's official Geographic Information Systems map, at the intersection of East Fourth Street which is one block west of Second Avenue and one block west of Lafayette Street, the building on the southwest corner is 358 Bowery, and the building at the southeast corner is 359 Bowery, while the building at the northwest corner is 2 Cooper Square and the building at the northeast corner is 1 Cooper Square, confirming that the transition from the Bowery to Cooper Square takes place at East Fourth Street.
Visual corroboration is provided by the city's official street signs at the East Fourth Street intersection: on the northwest corner is "Cooper Sq / E 4 St", while at the southeast corner is "East 4 St / Bowery".
At the north end of the square, the last building to use the Cooper Square address on the eastern spur is 71 Cooper Square, just south of the intersection with St. Mark's Place; the building across St. Mark's is 23 Third Avenue. On the western spur of the Square, the last Cooper Square address is 56 Cooper Square; the next building uses a Lafayette Street address, while the building on the other side of Astor Place has a Fourth Avenue address, an indication that Cooper Square ends at Astor Place.
Visual corroboration is provided by the city's official street signs at the intersection with Astor Place, such as this one showing the transition from Cooper Square to Fourth Avenue at Astor Place, and "St Marks Pl/Cooper Sq on the southeast corner of that intersection and "3 Av/St Marks Pl" on the northeast corner. MisterShiney ✉ 22:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Congrats! Now prove with how many manhours that Broadway is a street. Tenebrae, there is no neighorhood called Cooper Square - and Business Improvement Association would have their own agenda, not be an impartial source of neighborhood knowledge, not until it passes into parlance. Like the decades it took for realtors to cull "East Village" out of the Lower East Side. JesseRafe ( talk) 02:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Done Now lets all go have a nice relaxing cup of tea.
MisterShiney
✉ 12:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Seeing as you wont follow BRD, I will. What is the point in you reverting a justified change without providing an edit summary. You are just showing your deliberate childish antagonistic behaviour. Your edit summary is ridiculous and does not assume good faith at all! Or perhaps you feel you own the article? -- MisterShiney ✉ 06:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
In regards to the 3RR issue involving the spelling of "the Bowery / The Bowery," discussion has been ongoing at Talk:Bowery rather than here. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 22:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The page is currently protected. I don't see why anyone needs to be blocked here so this is the easy way out. Once the or not to the is figured out at Talk:Bowery, this should be moot anyway. -- regentspark ( comment) 22:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Sheikha13. Peer reviewers:
Sheikha13.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
There doesn't appear to be, in the footnotes I've gone through, anything that defines the boundaries of the Cooper Square area. The claim of it being merely the red area in the map — which is not an official map but just someone's own work — appears to be uncited and possibly an original-research claim. In fact, the Cooper Square Association says here that the area is much larger: "In 1959, Robert Moses had designated a 12-block area from Ninth St. to Delancey St. as the Cooper Square Urban Renewal Area, and hundreds of buildings were to be taken through eminent domain, and slated for demolition in order to build middle-income housing." This needs to be addressed. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 21:16, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
First, you made a bold edit (i.e. adding tags on your own, not with a previous discussion behind them), I reverted it. The next step is discussion, NOT your reverting again, so I'm going to, one more time, restore the article to the status quo ante, and the discussion can continue.
Second, I have all the evidence lined up and ready to present that the definition of the street Cooper Square is precisely as I've given it in this article, but there's quite a lot of it, and it would time some time to present, so I'd rather not. If you'd like to AGF that I have the evidence, that's fine, but if you can't bring yourself to do that, I will put it here -- you just let me know here. Thanks. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 07:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Tenebrae, actually I was the editor who originated the verbiage you're accusing BYK of taking proprietary measures over, as when I created this article as a stub with, "It is fed directly from the south by Bowery at East Fourth Street which becomes Third Avenue after Saint Mark's Place. The northweast corner borders Saint Mark's Place, while the northwest corner borders Astor Place." This, being the bounds of the street itself, is self-evident. Arguing against such prima facie sourcing as that is akin to asking for citing present to the sky being blue. JesseRafe ( talk) 19:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
The first paragraph and the first sentence of the second paragraph do not cite the boundaries of Cooper Square. (The first footnote is a comment, not a source.) I believe under basic WP:VERIFY a cite should be given for the claimed boundaries. The uncited boundaries are not what the Cooper Square Association itself gives. I believe tagging the page to request citations and to caution of original research is necessary, but an editor who wrote the bulk of the article refuses to allow it to be tagged. This is a request for comment over whether it is appropriate to remove the tags without adding citations. Please note it is protocol not to edit the disputed section while an RfC is in progress. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 19:37, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Please note that it is protocol to wait until after the conclusion of the RfC to edit the article. One does not open a Request for Comments from other editors and then put the article into the state you hope the RfC will result it. Thanks, Beyond My Ken ( talk) 19:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Given the nature of this article, if the article is going define the boundaries (a key piece of information), then reliable sources do need to be given if they can be found. Tenebrae is correct in keeping the citation requests on the page. Which quite frankly would do nothing but improve the article further. It is not appropriate behaviour for an editor to remove tags without addressing the reason for their placement. I notice from an edit summary that Beyond My Ken explained that the reason for his removal was that a month had passed, there is no time limit on Tags. Some tags I have seen have been on articles for months, if not years before.
Beyond My Ken your attitudes towards the removal of the tags, as Tenebrae has already said, would imply that you are taking their additions personally and that you feel you (intentionally or not) that you own the article and are against their additions. If this is about facts as you so adamantly claim, then it shouldnt be too difficult to come up with some verifiable facts from reliable sources. MisterShiney ✉ 21:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken is 100% right here. This is about the road named Cooper Square, not about the Business Improvement District. For the record, there is no "neighborhood" called Cooper Square, but many such neighborhoods are the result of enterprising and industrious realtors. New York City, London, and other metropolises are [in-]famous for names of neighborhoods arising overnight completely without the knowledge of their inhabitants. As such, the Cooper Square Association's bailiwick is beyond irrelevant. For comparison look at the list of BIDs here: http://www.nycbidassociation.org - It would be absurd to use any of these as criteria for determining where Union Square or Fifth Avenue are. Tenebrae seems to fundamentally misunderstand what this article is about. It is about a street. Not the park enclosed within it, not the entities abutting it, and not the nebulous names of the area it's in, but the street called Cooper Square which cannot be be more self-defined than it is. Any opinion to the contrary is purely overly-bureaucratic rule-mongering and failing to look at the article before the "rule book". JesseRafe ( talk) 02:54, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
I think that I understand the cause of all this. After further exploration of Beyond My Ken's user sub-page, I think it is safe to say that said user seems to have some issue with tags and thinks that they are vandalism and therefore may be trying to prove a point on this article and taking it particularly personally that they have been added to a page he actively edits. Especially seeing as he see's them as and I quote:
He seems to feel very strongly about this which may go some way to describe his attitude in this conversation. MisterShiney ✉ 22:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Whilst I appreciate the time and effort that went into finding this information, this is an incorrect way to reference a work that is not standard for ANY manual of style, let alone Wikipedia as it is just effectively a chunk of information. I have therefore removed it and placed it here for another editor to incorporate properly into the article or to cite the works properly it references into the article. It is basically a chuck of information which is being used a source which if you look at it carefully has it's own sources within sources.
Here is the reference: According to New York City's official Geographic Information Systems map, at the intersection of East Fourth Street which is one block west of Second Avenue and one block west of Lafayette Street, the building on the southwest corner is 358 Bowery, and the building at the southeast corner is 359 Bowery, while the building at the northwest corner is 2 Cooper Square and the building at the northeast corner is 1 Cooper Square, confirming that the transition from the Bowery to Cooper Square takes place at East Fourth Street.
Visual corroboration is provided by the city's official street signs at the East Fourth Street intersection: on the northwest corner is "Cooper Sq / E 4 St", while at the southeast corner is "East 4 St / Bowery".
At the north end of the square, the last building to use the Cooper Square address on the eastern spur is 71 Cooper Square, just south of the intersection with St. Mark's Place; the building across St. Mark's is 23 Third Avenue. On the western spur of the Square, the last Cooper Square address is 56 Cooper Square; the next building uses a Lafayette Street address, while the building on the other side of Astor Place has a Fourth Avenue address, an indication that Cooper Square ends at Astor Place.
Visual corroboration is provided by the city's official street signs at the intersection with Astor Place, such as this one showing the transition from Cooper Square to Fourth Avenue at Astor Place, and "St Marks Pl/Cooper Sq on the southeast corner of that intersection and "3 Av/St Marks Pl" on the northeast corner. MisterShiney ✉ 22:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Congrats! Now prove with how many manhours that Broadway is a street. Tenebrae, there is no neighorhood called Cooper Square - and Business Improvement Association would have their own agenda, not be an impartial source of neighborhood knowledge, not until it passes into parlance. Like the decades it took for realtors to cull "East Village" out of the Lower East Side. JesseRafe ( talk) 02:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
Done Now lets all go have a nice relaxing cup of tea.
MisterShiney
✉ 12:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Seeing as you wont follow BRD, I will. What is the point in you reverting a justified change without providing an edit summary. You are just showing your deliberate childish antagonistic behaviour. Your edit summary is ridiculous and does not assume good faith at all! Or perhaps you feel you own the article? -- MisterShiney ✉ 06:29, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
In regards to the 3RR issue involving the spelling of "the Bowery / The Bowery," discussion has been ongoing at Talk:Bowery rather than here. -- Tenebrae ( talk) 22:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
The page is currently protected. I don't see why anyone needs to be blocked here so this is the easy way out. Once the or not to the is figured out at Talk:Bowery, this should be moot anyway. -- regentspark ( comment) 22:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Cooper Square. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)