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The history section seems to have somewhat of a pro-American slant, or at least to be written too much from an American (non-neutral) viewpoint. In particular, the assertions about the effect of Gray's entry of the Columbia River on American claims to the whole "Oregon Country" seem much over-stated. Gray himself does not seem to have made much of it, beyond that it afforded him some good trading, and American territorial claims on its basis were not mooted at the time -- at least not that I have read. The whole idea that this one bit of exploration by a private trader should have given the U.S. territorial claim to so vast an area, an area that was being much more extensively explored by other nations at the time, seems preposterous, and all the more so considering that the U.S. only extended east to the Missisippi at the time, the Louisiana Purchase being over a decade away, as yet. American territorial claims in the era a little afterward were not always conspicuous for their reasonableness, and a hagiographic, hindsight over-emphasis on the effect of Gray would not be out of character for them, but this needs to be presented for what it is. I've added some material on George Vancouver's explorations, which balances matters out somewhat.
A couple of other points seem doubtful to me; I've tagged them as needing citations.
--
Lonewolf BC
01:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I edited the volume. For this time of year mean flow is over 300,000 cfs. Total yearly mean flow is somewhat lower, but not less than 284,000 cfs, which makes the Columbia larger in Volume than the St. Lawrence and Mackenzie. Tides can affect the gaging, as when water is inflowing the discharge will read much lower. [1] - User:Peckvet55 05:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Myasuda 13:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: Everything above here is duplicated in /Archive 2, kept here only inasmuch as the discussions may (?) not be resolved yet. - Pete ( talk) 21:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The Bureau of Reclamation apparently had a lot to do with the building of dams and the economic development of the region. Notably, the Bureau was working on a "secret plan" in 1965 to divert the Columbia to California, but was thwarted by Washington Sen. Scoop Jackson. Also, the collapse of the Teton Dam in 1976 prompted the Carter administration to put the brakes on dam development, and declare that the rivers of the West had been successfully "harnessed." The book Cadillac Desert, reviewed here in the Seattle Times, explores the history of the agency. Also, this Washington Post article discusses the new approach of Carter's Interior Department.
;Time magazine article about Woody Guthrie and the BPA, and the evloving politics of the region.:
Morrow, Lance (
July 8
2002).
"This Land Is Whose Land? Times and priorities change. Woody Guthrie hailed Lewis and Clark for finding a place to build dams. Today his tune might be different". Time.
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DONE (not a very good or comprehensive article, so I found a citation from the Oregonian too) - Pete 19:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
;Time magazine article on Kennewick Man:
Lemonick, Michael D. (
March 13
2006).
"Who Were The First Americans?". Time.
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Fortune mag. article: cheap power makes river attractive for tech companies/server farms. -
Pete
20:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I cut out the following section from the main page. I'd like to see about getting this article reviewed for "Good" status, and another editor (VanTucky) pointed out that anything resembling a "trivia" section might be an impediment. If there is value in this section, can it be extracted and combined into the prose of the article somewhere else? Surely not all these movies need to be listed. - Pete 15:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Roll on, Columbia, roll on, roll on, Columbia, roll on
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn
Roll on, Columbia, roll on.
Roll on Columbia by Woody Guthrie, written under commission of the Bonneville Power Administration
On February 13 1980, $5,800 (in bundles of $20 bills) was found by a family on a picnic five miles northwest of Vancouver, Washington on the banks of the Columbia River. The money is believed by the FBI to be connected with the 1971 disappearance of hijacker D. B. Cooper. [1]
You know, this article's subject has so many different landmarks and ecologies, that I think it really merits a gallery. We could even organize it go with the flow of the river (starting in Canada etc.). This would free up some the places that the amount of images disrupts the text, and still manage to keep what are all quite necessary images. Thoughts? VanTucky Talk 22:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for weighing in here! I am a bit confused by Pfly's comment, because I also use Firefox 2 on a recent Mac (it's 10.4, should be about the same) and I don't think it has the same issue. If you can figure out a way to get a screen shot to me (Apple-Shift-3 puts a picture of your screen on your desktop) I'd be happy to tinker a bit.
VanTucky, I think we just have a difference of opinion about what looks good. I rather like having images "interrupt" the text in a few places. Pushing the header over is actually something I did on purpose. All that said, none of it is anything I'm going to fight too hard on -- if you have a different vision of how it should look, I'm happy to take a peek.
Finally, I generally avoid the "imagestack" template, but in this case I used it because it solves a problem I couldn't figure out how to solve any other way: using the white space to the right of the map in the "Tributaries" section. Definitely open to suggestion on that! Of course, we can talk this over tonight at WikiWednesday. - Pete 22:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's two screenshots of what I was talking about above (view larger to see more clearly). The first is with a wide window, showing how even then the text is obscured by images. The second is a narrower window, showing how the table gets obscured. There's no window width that doesn't obscure content. It could be that this is the result of some stupid mistake I made with some setting somewhere or other, but I can't recall making any unusual settings to anything. It's a fairly minor problem that happens only here and there on wikipedia, so I haven't mentioned it or tried to fix it yet. Pfly 03:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
where do you get photos of river george. my tearcher showed us photos in class , I dont know where she got them on this web site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.137.150 ( talk) 18:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to try to find some info on the old course of the river, where it followed through what is now the Wilson River valley when it flowed more straight into the Pacific (at least I remember hearing that before). Aboutmovies 00:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Myasuda just removed the "Drainage" section (pasted below.) This was discussed above, in the section #Removed some specifics. The section actually includes more detail than the intro, which had become bogged down, in my opinion (and according to a non-Wikipedian friend who read the article) with far too many statistics. Personally, I think there should be even fewer specific stats in the intro, to keep it interesting to the many readers who are not necessarily looking for a statistical rundown. But it's probably a good idea to include the details in the article; that's where the "Drainage" section came from to begin with.
Very interested in what other editors think of this. - Pete 03:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | DRAINAGE
With an average annual flow of about 265,000 ft³/s (7,500 m³/s), the Columbia is the largest river by volume flowing into the Pacific from the Western Hemisphere, and is the fourth-largest in North America. The Columbia's highest recorded flow was 1,240,000 ft³/s (35,113 m³/s), on June 6, 1894. The river flows 1,243 miles (2,000 km) from its headwaters to the Pacific, draining an area of about 258,000 square miles (668,217 km²). |
” |
The article makes the claim that the Columbia is the only river to pass through the Cascades, in the Gorge. Certainly, the Klamath River also cuts through the Cascades (though in less dramatic fashion); and arguments can be made for the Fraser River in BC and the Pit River in California (both of which pass the Cascades near the northern and southern ends of the range, respectively); articles for these rivers all claim to cut through the Cascade mountains.
Certainly, the article ought to be correct, and consistent with the other rivers in question. If there is controversy concerning which other rivers cut through the Cascades, that should be dealt with in some manner.
-- EngineerScotty 05:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that this section is a bit lacking. It should start with an overview of the flora and fauna of the river, before getting into the things that threaten that. Also, it's my understanding that the timber industry, historically, has been detrimental to fish habitat etc., though I'd have to hunt for a source. - Pete 00:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I will be doing the Good Article review here - more soon, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Pete 08:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
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help)Citation for "three times size of Great Pyramid" and some other stuff here. - Pete ( talk) 21:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a couple o' minor edits tonight: "at numerous times" and changed one of the three uses of "vibrant" to "thriving" - actually stole this word from an article that Google led me to! But someone who knows more about the article (Pete(r)?) should have a look at the two remaining "vibrant"s - it's a good word but not when over-used! --
Martha (
talk)
06:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
In the opening sentence the claim is made:
The cite is from Capt Gray.....who is anything but a valid source, I'd say; non-aboriginal nowledge comprehension of native langauges is not to be trusted, especially in the earliest years of contact (such misreadings are how Canada got its name, from the Algonquian word for "village"). A real source would be a Chinookan-language study, and from what i recall in Chinook Jargon studies/debates while there is a Chinookan name for the river, that's not it; I'll see if I can dig it up, I think it's mentioned in Shaw or Gibbs, who are the main Chinook Jargon source; the name they give for use in C J is that from the Chinookan language. In fairness though, there are a dozen or two languages along the river's route, and if Chinookan is to be here - it is a dead language - then the living (if endangered) languages farther upstream should also be here. I'll check on this Wimahl claim, it may resemble a Chinookan word, but I don't recognize it at all. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
William Denison Lyman, The Columbia River (Portland, OR: Binfords & Mort, 1963); 37, 43, 44-47, 50-51; Edmond S. Meany, History of the State of Washington (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1946), 15-16; Meany, Origin of Washington Geographic Names (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1923), 35, 52-53; Rick Minor, "Settlement and subsistence at the Mouth of the Columbia River" in Prehistoric Places on the Southern Northwest Coast ed. by Robert E. Greengo (Seattle: Burke Museum, 1983), 196-98; Murray Morgan, The Last Wilderness (New York: Viking Press, 1955), 8-9, 18; J. Richard Nokes, Columbia's River (Tacoma: Washington State Historical Society, 1991), 185, 189-91, 193-97; Robert Michael Pyle, Wintergreen (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1996), 44-46; Rick Rubin, Naked Against the Rain (Portland, OR: Far Shore Press, 1999), 3-5, 8, 14-15, 37-49, 61-62, 93-97, 107-21.
So I don't think it's accurate to say that Robert Gray is the authority cited. Of course, more detailed research would be an improvement, and including additional names from further upstream would be great if they can be found. By the way, good luck with the househunt! - Pete ( talk) 16:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The Bonneville image at the top of the article seems a bit washed out. I propose a new image for the top of the article. Maybe the Revelstoke picture? Or this one of the Hanford Reach? Or maybe a flickr image tagged as creative commons, like this one [3]? Northwesterner1 ( talk) 12:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I would be open to alternate images, but I feel that anything we use must display multiple aspects of the river, and invite a number of different stories to be told, along these lines. I don't believe any other image currently in the article comes close. - Pete ( talk) 18:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
is of Lake Windermere, not Columbia Lake, but is already on the Columbia Valley page. Skookum1 ( talk) 18:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I can see your point. The original is here [4]. It's an Army Corps of Engineers photo and is in the public domain for that reason. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 20:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
that ACE site looks really interesting, probably full of all kinds of useful wikipix...I tried searching for "Whatcom" and "Okanogan" just to see what would come up. Nothing did, maybe I wasn't looking in the right place....where did you browse/find/search for the Bonneville Dam pic? Skookum1 ( talk) 22:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I am confused about the meaning of this bit of text, which needs a source:
The Columbia's heavy flow and extreme elevation drop over a short distance give it tremendous capacity for hydroelectricity generation. It was estimated in the 1960s – ’70s that the Columbia represented a fifth of the total hydroelectric capacity on Earth (although these estimates may no longer be accurate.)
Sources seem to use the term "hydroelectric capacity" for existing dams. In this sense the claim here is about comparing the hydroelectric production of the Columbia River dams with the rest of the world's hydroelectric dams. But the mention of the river's flow and elevation drop imply that "capacity" means "potential", whether developed or not. It is hard to believe that the Columbia has a fifth of the world's potential hydroelectric power, but I can maybe believe it once had a fifth of the world's actual production, in the 60s perhaps. Pfly ( talk) 20:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
River | avg flow (kcfs) |
hydro length (mi) |
elev drop (ft) |
kcfs x elev ________ mi |
---|---|---|---|---|
Mississippi River | 450 | 1485 | 800 at Minneapolis | 242 |
Amazon River | 7500 | 900 | 300 at Manaus | 2500 |
Nile River | 100 | 1500 | 1200 at Khartoum, Sudan | 80 |
Columbia River | 265 | 400 | 360 at Snake River | 238 |
According to this website, the UN estimates the world's total "technically exploitable" potential for hydropower is 15 trillion kilowatt-hours." That's 15,000,000,000 MW if I'm not mistaken. The Columbia River dams currently produce 24,149 MW according to List of hydroelectric dams on the Columbia River. I'm sure more could be made, but a fifth of the world's potential would be 3,000,000,000 MW. That's an awful lot more than 24,149. Maybe my math is wrong somewhere. Pfly ( talk) 01:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's another sentence I have trouble with, from the Hydroelectricity subsection:
While hydroelectricity accounts for only 6.5% of energy in the United States, the Columbia and its tributaries provide approximately 60% of the hydroelectric power on the west coast.
First, the grammar and logic struck me as odd and somewhat confusing. Doesn't it seem odd? If nothing else I expected "Pacific Northwest" instead of "west coast". The Columbia and tributaries include some major hydroelectric sites in Idaho and Montana, but none in California.
Second, I looked at the source cited at the end of the sentence, this page, and could not find anything about "60% of the hydroelectric power on the west coast". I browsed the website's other pages for such info with no luck. Further, the page says that hydro accounts for 7.1% of the US energy production, not 6.5%.
So, I'll change the 6.5 to 7.1, move the footnote to just that claim, and add a fact tag to the second claim. I'll see if I can find more info, and think about better wording. Pfly ( talk) 04:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There is something else odd about the source footnote here. The ref tag says it is from the "Energy Information Administration, Electric Power Annual, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers". It is from the Energy Information Administration, but I see nothing about the Army Corps of Engineers there. Also, the footnote calls the link "Federal Columbia River Power System], brochure (2003), p. 1." But the actual link is called "Electric Power Annual", published in 2007 with data for 2006. It says nothing at all about the Columbia River. It isn't a brochure and does not have a page 1. In short, something is messed up here. Pfly ( talk) 04:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I just removed the statement altogether, figuring the one I added about the river having a third of the US's hydro potential covers the basic idea (ie, the river can and does produce an awful lot of electricity). Again, the removed statement is here on the talk page in case anyone gets around to figuring it out. Pfly ( talk) 21:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit replaced the material below; might be worth making the point about the USACE's predictions and restoring the cited articles. Also, wondering if this section should mention Kettle Falls and Cascades Rapids, which though not as significant as Celilo, were also major fishing and trading sites. - Pete ( talk) 21:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
And here's an alternate version of the above, influenced by what Pfly suggests below. I'm using "Modern History" instead of "River Modfications" because the dam content outweighs the current dredging project, so there's really only one BIG "modification," but there are many uses of that modification.
Northwesterner1 ( talk) 07:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad you're bringing this up. To sum up the choices, which I think you presented well:
The current sections are the result of some reorganizing I did, but needn't stay that way if they're not working. I'm interested to hear what others think. - Pete ( talk) 23:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think I know enough yet to contribute much to the ongoing discussion of overall organization, but I see quite a few low-level, nit-picky things that I'd like to change. I want to ask first, though, and not just flail away. I'd like to add conversion templates for virtually all of the imperial-to-metric conversions in the article. The templates eliminate the possibility of simple math errors in the conversions; they solve the "no-wrap" problem for each set of quantities and units; they spell out the primary unit, as suggested by the Manual of Style, and they abbreviate the secondary unit; they will accept a parameter that auto-wikilinks either the primary or secondary unit or both, and this is handy for linking terms like "acre" and "ha" on first use. They don't handle the hyphenated phrases like "16-mile tributary" very well because of the hyphen, but those phrases can be done "by hand". I see minor inconsistencies in the conversions here and there throughout the article, and I believe the templates would fix them all. I'd volunteer to do them if you have no objections. While I'm at it, I would also add no-break codes between all digitized numbers and units (or nouns) not fixed by the conversion templates. These minor things might or might not survive GA but certainly not FA, and they should be fixed in any case. Finetooth ( talk) 22:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
For streamflow discharge there is Template:CubicFeetPerSecAndMeters. I've used it a little (see Jur River for example), but decided I preferred doing cubic feet and cubic metres per second by hand. It appears that the template can't display results with commas (like 14,300 cu ft/s instead of 14300). Thought I'd mention it though -- perhaps useful. Pfly ( talk) 04:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>I'm finished with the conversions. The Convert template worked for stream flow OK with "per second" spelled out separately from the conversions. I decided not to use the template on the billion gallon conversions because they looked OK already and because I didn't want to change billion to 1,000,000,000 and get myself banished from the editing corps. If any of the article's numbers change in the future, it will be easy to plug the new numbers into the existing templates. I also inserted no-break codes everywhere I thought they were needed; 14 dams, for example. I may have missed a few but not many. Finetooth ( talk) 03:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I was requested to have a look at this article and make suggestions. I looked at a lot of other river articles, and without singling any one out, basically I didn't see one that was as good as this one. Don't know what the requirements are for Good Article, but this one seems to be at the front of the rivers at least. One teeeeeeny little quibble -- should the alternative names "Great River of the West" and "Oregon" also be listed as historic names of the river? Mtsmallwood ( talk) 05:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I gotta stop finding these, the work never ends! But...this 4-part OPB series is awfully cool, and probably has lots of stuff that could be used for this article, and/or related ones... http://news.opb.org/series/2007/columbia/ - Pete ( talk) 07:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I see a sentence in the "Drainage basin" section that is missing a word or phrase. It says, "For its first 200 miles (320 km) the Columbia flows northwest, through Windermere Lake and the town of Invermere, then northwest around the to Golden and into Kinbasket Lake." Something should go between "the" and "to", but I'm not sure what was intended. Finetooth ( talk) 19:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The MOS advises generally against repeating in the section heads any words used in the article title. I changed the "Wider world explores the river" to "Explorations" with that in mind. This is just a suggestion. "Early explorations" or something else might be better. Finetooth ( talk) 21:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
<outdent> I boldly restored the originals. They can always be changed again if consensus is reached on what would be best. Finetooth ( talk) 00:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
State (of Washington) cracking down on illegal frost-control dams - Pete ( talk) 21:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
turns out there's a Biodiversity Atlas underway funded by the BC Gov with the participation of Selkirk College. The main links off maps.gov.bc.ca didn't work but I found this which gives statistics on the Canadian length etc. and is a spinoff of the main project page. I don't have time to "mine" the article and add relevant contents here, but there was a need for Canadian-side citations/data so this should provide some of hte main stuff. Skookum1 ( talk) 16:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
i.e. the indigenous peoples section but in ref to Kennewick Man and other early-digs/finds; I'm mostly thinking of only one addition, but I don't know where to find the citation; so many hundred years ago, IIRC about 1500BP, maybe 3000BP, there was a pottery-using culture (presumably also pottery-making but finds are marginal); buried in alluvial ash or whatever, evidently wiped out by natural disaster. Bona fide but I don't know more than that tidbit, remembered from the CHINOOK-L listserve's discussions of various things. Oh, another aboriginal name for th river was Sesotkwa or Tsesotkwa, but nobody knew which language it was from; similarly when Simon Fraser started down the Fraser it was in the hopes to prove it was the Tacoutche Tesse, the Columbia; although once again in whose language I don't know, as that's not a Carrier-looking name (ko=river) nor is it Salishan (meen/een=river). The Chinookan name that turns up is Wihml - Wimhl? - with only one vowel; whether etymologically it means "big"+"river" I don't know. Oh, there's another "ancient" dig in the upper Columbia somewhere; might be in that diversity atlas or resources connected to it...basic drift is maybe there should be an archaoelogical section; won't be large but worthwhile.
When I look at this article with Safari it has a scrollbar where about 5-10% isn't displayed in the main window no matter how large I size my browser window (up to 1650px wide). It does not behave this way with Firefox and this is the only page that I can recall seeing this. After going through the code I've determined that this is caused by a known problem with Template:ImageStackRight. Template:Imagestack seems to work better, but if I use it to replace the existing template then it causes more problems than it fixes. Maybe someone can come up with a way to avoid the ImageStackRight template and maintain the layout?
Another thing, I took a neat photo from a viewpoint today but in deference to all the hard work that has gone into this page I'll put it here and let others decide if and where it belongs.
Cheers, Cacophony ( talk) 06:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
In his GA review, User:Ruhrfisch strongly recommended making the footnote formatting consistent. Specifically, "Internet refs should have title, publisher, author (if known), and date accessed." A glance at the footnotes shows me that he's right. I'm volunteering to fix these over the coming days unless anyone objects. Finetooth ( talk) 04:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>OK, I'll make that change. Meanwhile, I've found a Canadian source for the lake elevation here, 820 meters, which is very close to what we've used. I'll use it instead of Google Earth for that particular bit of data. Finetooth ( talk) 23:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>Pete, you and the others have done a terrific job with all the rest, and that's what makes doing these citations worthwhile. I wouldn't spend this much time on an article that was otherwise in bad shape. I'm motivated partly by a desire to see this big river article reach FA. But you can help me perhaps with another nit. I have a question I can't easily resolve about the Ronda book citation, #27. I replaced a dead link with a working one to the on-line Google version of the book, but the citation should include a specific page number rather than the whole book. Do you happen to know what it is? Finetooth ( talk) 17:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch brought up the possibility of making a new map for the Columbia on my talk page. Would this be useful and if so what would you like on it? Note this would be an addition, not a replacement for the existing map. Kmusser ( talk) 14:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
There's also the Bush River, the Sullivan, the Cummins, the Kinbasket, the Wood...all from the Rockies. it was the Goldstream River from the Selkirks I was thinking of, but there's also Bigmouth Creek and Downie Creek and others which are very large; "creek" in BC is often something larger than a "river".....I'll see what kind of hydrlogic data there is out there; I used to work for MoE HQ so maybe there's somebody whose back I can scratch there who can dig up inthe info (that was back in '95 or '93 though....)
As a precursor I made a small locator map at Image:ColumbiaRiverLocMap.png, though that's really intended for non-English wikis - a more detailed map is in the works for this one. Kmusser ( talk) 17:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's a neat map that might bear some similarity to what we need. Also, that page has descriptions of many place names along the river, including The Dalles among many others. Doesn't much help on the native name of the Columbia, though it does mention an early name applied to the upper Columbia by A. MacKenzie. - Pete ( talk) 22:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
By the way I test-sent myself something from that Columbia River Project map you found off maps.gov.bc.ca - there's no copyright mark on it, implying that it, like other types of generated maps, is public domain. That would be a good one for showing basins, I guess; it's the same data as in Basemap and the LRDWC but to me isn't as "clean" looking; but those generated maps with copyright markings on them. There's yet another really neat system which I've been hunting for to find again; it can do layers and all kinds of stuff, all public domain. You might google {Columbia River" and "ArcView" and see what comes up.....that's not the system I'm thinking of but there might be some Arcview Applications around re the region, if not hydrologic then geologic or ?? Looking for that other map system for some aboriginal-related map-making projects, but useful across the board....if I can find it again.... Skookum1 ( talk) 22:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
[undent] as far as the native-name goes I think David Thompson's stuff is online, maybe JSTOR or some other pay-for, maybe canadiana.org; not sure about Fraser's journal but I know, or I think I know, that he uses Tacoutche Tesse, but there he's using MacKenzie'snames/notes...one comment about natives names for "river", one thing you learn from books like the Sto:lo Historical Atlas that natives named geography on diffeerent paradigms; different parts of a body of water or of a mouhntain could have names, not just the thing as one object or just the peak....different names up and down the Columbia would yes havebeen all those different languages....but also perhaps local "spots" on the river; like the confusion over the name Canada, if you knoew the story. Sto:lo/staulo just means "river", that one river = wherever you happen to be; I think in Secwepemc it may mean the Thomspon, although in the modern paradigm it's from Halqemeylem and refers to the Fraser); I don't know the St'at'imcets and Nlaka'pamux names; there's maps showing hundreds ofnamed locations, but I don't recall one for the river as a river.....one thing to suggest is writing the Colville Tribes and Grande Ronde Community and asking their resident linguists.... Skookum1 ( talk) 05:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
New map added, comments are welcome. I think all major tributaries are on there, but I only labeled the very largest of them as I ran out of room. I included cities over 50,000 in the basin and then additional cities that are on the river itself. Too much? Not enough? Kmusser ( talk) 17:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) This is an idea I've toyed around with myself -- a map showing the rapids and falls of the lower Columbia before the dams -- because.. well, you are not the only one who can't always keep track of which one was where! I sketched out a rough map or two some time ago but never finished anything. I got stuck on some of the lesser known rapids. I'll move it from the back to the front burner, so to speak. I have a few books with (modern) maps of the Gorge, pre-dams. There is a very lovely set of Lewis and Clark atlases that also have a wealth of info on the Gorge rapids (something like $50 each though, too much more me, but nice to browse in the bookstore). Pfly ( talk) 23:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh and I meant to say, nice map Karl! Your relief always looks great, and excellent color sense. Pfly ( talk) 23:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Started looking for those data sets; think they're in one of the GeoSciences Canada links I've been browsing just now, but found this, GeoGratis free images; haven't scanned the page enough to see usage/copyright conditions but to me it looks like this is public-domain data; pretty specialized datasets but still capable of buildling topographic and river-route displays, if you know your mapping softwares; anyway looks like some useful image/map-building materials and mayube some useful images; I'll see what the feds have on the Columbia River per se later; I've got to go see about getting one of my amps either fixed or replaced (I'm a guitar player/performer...and have to play tonight...) oh this is the entry page for GeoGratis and this is the GeoSciences Data Repository page I found it through, from Natural Resources Canada. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm no expert on database copyright issues and I don't know exactly what the deal is in Canada, but in Britain the databases made by the Ordnance Survey are definitely under copyright (see especially Ordnance Survey#Access to data and criticisms). As I understand it this kind of thing is the reason for projects like OpenStreetMap. I'm not making a case for one side or the other, just pointing to some more info on it. Pfly ( talk) 19:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not very good with the niceties of disambiguation. I never know whether to propose a page move or just to create a disambig link at the top of the page. In any case, something should probably be done about Lake Bonneville. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 21:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
A lot of dams in the Columbia Basin are run-of-the-river without sizable reservoirs. Waneta Dam is one of these I think. It doesn't really have a reservoir, just a "forebay", ie, "Waneta Dam Forebay" (er, I think, suddenly I don't quite trust my grasp of hydropower terminology). Pfly ( talk) 05:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to drop by about this, which I've raised before; solution to the title problem presented itself tonight while I was tidying Boat Encampment - the old region name in the BC Big Bend is " Big Bend Country" which I'll use for that title; it's a subarea of Columbia Country like Columbia Valley and the Arrow Lakes; it used to be a relatively settled area, with lots of wayside towns like the Fraser Canyon used to have, too; that was when the Columbia was the route of the TransCanada, as only the CPR used Rogers Pass; so Big Bend of the Columbia River, if it's ever needed/written, can/should have a dab line "for the one in...etc.". Skookum1 ( talk) 06:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for other stuff about elsewhere in BC and came across a Columbia Basin page on "Living Landscapes", a Royal BC Museum webproject; the Human history page looks like it has some interesting stuff but the natural history page looks like it has some material useful for this page, and for Columbia Basin. Also found this but you probably already know about it (?) Skookum1 ( talk) 15:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Although Columbia Lake is nominally considered the headwater of the Columbia, ultimately the source is the Columbia Icefield, hence the name (as also of Mount Columbia. Which little upper tributaries exactly come from the icefiled I'll have to look at later; I had a vicious stomach flu yesterday and have to mobilate myself for errands and some fresh air right now; though this was worth mentioning, maybe someone can stitch a mention into the article on it? Also found this which if you zoom in on BC is interesting, more for the way the Fraser basin was dealt with; but useful anyway perhaps. The diverted areas shown are, from N to S, the Nechako, Bridge and Cheakamus Rivers; only Nechako changes actual basins, though, so I don't see the point, i.e. there's other basin-to-same basin diversions...I'll have to read up the backinfo on this page to se what's up with that. Not that the Whatshan is a big deal, nor Alouette Lake nor Jones Lake; usually these national-level things are complied with only a loose understanding of BC geography/history, though.....(my stock complaint, no?)_ Skookum1 ( talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This is for Karl re heh free - "unrestricted use license" is who they put it - map data from the Canadian government. It's here in various forms; I know I tried to learn map-building software with it but I'm not up on how to use it at all; I haven't read the license but what they're sending up basically is raw data, in zip files of point-sets as i recall but I haven't gone through the links on this page yet; I just happened to find it while researching something else; have a look, Karl, might be useful; and there might be other resources related to the Columbia region just like there was on the CRD plan or whstever it's called, the one with the interactive map. And this still ssn't the BC-generated maps I mentioned....they have to do with minerals and such so mayb e they're pay-for now, but the claims records and government assays are public property etc.....are the vectors that make the maps themselves tnangibly copyrightable. Can a curve, an corner, a jagged age - a natural form - can they be copyrighted? Amazing....Anyway these data sets are apparently the cat's meow; check out what there is; maybe it's useless for what you need. Maybe not.
There is a HUGE difference between 1800s (big deal, we knew that) and 219 B.C. Is there not some carbon dating or some such? ~ WikiDon ( talk) 21:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
When ONE author says: ""It is a near certainty..." that is POV. WikiDon ( talk)
(outdent) The Hayes book is pretty good -- I have it too -- but I'm not so sure about this bit. I have another book that makes some effort to debunk the notion of Chinese/Japanese ships to America way back when, if I remember correctly. I'll check it again and see what it says exactly. The notion that Polynesians reached America is much more plausible, I think -- but not the Columbia River area. Anyway... checking.... Pfly ( talk) 01:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
[undent]Two immediate suggestions come to mind: the indigenous people's section needs more work (and I grant it's complciatedd stuff, esp. to get it right while remaining NPOV and also culturally sebnsitivei....). The other spins off your point about D. Thompson, who pls remember was unlike L&C not on a mission of national expansion/exploration, but was primarily a fur trader and only incidentally assignged to the job of finding out which of the rivers wewt of hte mountains was the Columbia; this is why he buggered around up by Kootenae House and didn't head for hte Pacific straight out like A. Mackenzie had done; he already knew it was there and company profitability had to do with maintaining existing trade, not imperial expansion and glory; and he also apparently liked hunting and hanging out in the hills. "Starggazer" wasn't just because he was a navigator (fun typo; I'd hit that up first as nabigavor....ah, what the mountain stars of the Kootenays must have looked like back then.... So I was going to suggest a section on "the search for hte Columbia", as the looking-for-it overland is just as involved and mult-personalitied as the coastal story; Simon Fraser's story is also involved of course, and certain others. I'll try and do what I can on the indigenous section, though it would help to ahve a WA/OR indigenous person or two to contribute as we have in BC with User:OldManRivers on Skwxwu7mesh and KWakwaka'wakw stuff. I think a map showing hte Great Rivere of the West (La grande fleuve de'l'Ouest and that mysetrious Grand mer d'louest, as a giant bay - either the Georgia-Puget area was meant, or a flooded San Jouquin-Sacrmaneto? About the "first contact thing, ambye the wording "first confirmed visit to teh area by a non-indigenous person was....". "European" opens too many cans of worms, and I dn't like it for period Brits and Americans; it's anti-chrnoistic, a modern term with differnt meanings in those times; and using it cuts out any need to parallel mention that there were not confirmed contacts from ASia or Polyneisa, though these ahve been theorized (and the Polynesian largely dismissed). OK, off to play some music. BTW Pfly had a kid, don't know if it's boy or girl yet....02:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
that line has always bothered me, although the exception to it I'm thinking of doesn't pass through the Cascades from one side to the other; it loops through it - the Skagit River; I guess it never crosses the divide of the Cascades, though....but is such a concept of a "divide" on a range pierced by, or spanning, the Columbia, even relevant? Skookum1 ( talk) 03:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 7 |
The history section seems to have somewhat of a pro-American slant, or at least to be written too much from an American (non-neutral) viewpoint. In particular, the assertions about the effect of Gray's entry of the Columbia River on American claims to the whole "Oregon Country" seem much over-stated. Gray himself does not seem to have made much of it, beyond that it afforded him some good trading, and American territorial claims on its basis were not mooted at the time -- at least not that I have read. The whole idea that this one bit of exploration by a private trader should have given the U.S. territorial claim to so vast an area, an area that was being much more extensively explored by other nations at the time, seems preposterous, and all the more so considering that the U.S. only extended east to the Missisippi at the time, the Louisiana Purchase being over a decade away, as yet. American territorial claims in the era a little afterward were not always conspicuous for their reasonableness, and a hagiographic, hindsight over-emphasis on the effect of Gray would not be out of character for them, but this needs to be presented for what it is. I've added some material on George Vancouver's explorations, which balances matters out somewhat.
A couple of other points seem doubtful to me; I've tagged them as needing citations.
--
Lonewolf BC
01:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I edited the volume. For this time of year mean flow is over 300,000 cfs. Total yearly mean flow is somewhat lower, but not less than 284,000 cfs, which makes the Columbia larger in Volume than the St. Lawrence and Mackenzie. Tides can affect the gaging, as when water is inflowing the discharge will read much lower. [1] - User:Peckvet55 05:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Myasuda 13:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
NOTE: Everything above here is duplicated in /Archive 2, kept here only inasmuch as the discussions may (?) not be resolved yet. - Pete ( talk) 21:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The Bureau of Reclamation apparently had a lot to do with the building of dams and the economic development of the region. Notably, the Bureau was working on a "secret plan" in 1965 to divert the Columbia to California, but was thwarted by Washington Sen. Scoop Jackson. Also, the collapse of the Teton Dam in 1976 prompted the Carter administration to put the brakes on dam development, and declare that the rivers of the West had been successfully "harnessed." The book Cadillac Desert, reviewed here in the Seattle Times, explores the history of the agency. Also, this Washington Post article discusses the new approach of Carter's Interior Department.
;Time magazine article about Woody Guthrie and the BPA, and the evloving politics of the region.:
Morrow, Lance (
July 8
2002).
"This Land Is Whose Land? Times and priorities change. Woody Guthrie hailed Lewis and Clark for finding a place to build dams. Today his tune might be different". Time.
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DONE (not a very good or comprehensive article, so I found a citation from the Oregonian too) - Pete 19:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
;Time magazine article on Kennewick Man:
Lemonick, Michael D. (
March 13
2006).
"Who Were The First Americans?". Time.
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Fortune mag. article: cheap power makes river attractive for tech companies/server farms. -
Pete
20:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I cut out the following section from the main page. I'd like to see about getting this article reviewed for "Good" status, and another editor (VanTucky) pointed out that anything resembling a "trivia" section might be an impediment. If there is value in this section, can it be extracted and combined into the prose of the article somewhere else? Surely not all these movies need to be listed. - Pete 15:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Roll on, Columbia, roll on, roll on, Columbia, roll on
Your power is turning our darkness to dawn
Roll on, Columbia, roll on.
Roll on Columbia by Woody Guthrie, written under commission of the Bonneville Power Administration
On February 13 1980, $5,800 (in bundles of $20 bills) was found by a family on a picnic five miles northwest of Vancouver, Washington on the banks of the Columbia River. The money is believed by the FBI to be connected with the 1971 disappearance of hijacker D. B. Cooper. [1]
You know, this article's subject has so many different landmarks and ecologies, that I think it really merits a gallery. We could even organize it go with the flow of the river (starting in Canada etc.). This would free up some the places that the amount of images disrupts the text, and still manage to keep what are all quite necessary images. Thoughts? VanTucky Talk 22:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you both for weighing in here! I am a bit confused by Pfly's comment, because I also use Firefox 2 on a recent Mac (it's 10.4, should be about the same) and I don't think it has the same issue. If you can figure out a way to get a screen shot to me (Apple-Shift-3 puts a picture of your screen on your desktop) I'd be happy to tinker a bit.
VanTucky, I think we just have a difference of opinion about what looks good. I rather like having images "interrupt" the text in a few places. Pushing the header over is actually something I did on purpose. All that said, none of it is anything I'm going to fight too hard on -- if you have a different vision of how it should look, I'm happy to take a peek.
Finally, I generally avoid the "imagestack" template, but in this case I used it because it solves a problem I couldn't figure out how to solve any other way: using the white space to the right of the map in the "Tributaries" section. Definitely open to suggestion on that! Of course, we can talk this over tonight at WikiWednesday. - Pete 22:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's two screenshots of what I was talking about above (view larger to see more clearly). The first is with a wide window, showing how even then the text is obscured by images. The second is a narrower window, showing how the table gets obscured. There's no window width that doesn't obscure content. It could be that this is the result of some stupid mistake I made with some setting somewhere or other, but I can't recall making any unusual settings to anything. It's a fairly minor problem that happens only here and there on wikipedia, so I haven't mentioned it or tried to fix it yet. Pfly 03:06, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
where do you get photos of river george. my tearcher showed us photos in class , I dont know where she got them on this web site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.108.137.150 ( talk) 18:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to try to find some info on the old course of the river, where it followed through what is now the Wilson River valley when it flowed more straight into the Pacific (at least I remember hearing that before). Aboutmovies 00:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Myasuda just removed the "Drainage" section (pasted below.) This was discussed above, in the section #Removed some specifics. The section actually includes more detail than the intro, which had become bogged down, in my opinion (and according to a non-Wikipedian friend who read the article) with far too many statistics. Personally, I think there should be even fewer specific stats in the intro, to keep it interesting to the many readers who are not necessarily looking for a statistical rundown. But it's probably a good idea to include the details in the article; that's where the "Drainage" section came from to begin with.
Very interested in what other editors think of this. - Pete 03:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | DRAINAGE
With an average annual flow of about 265,000 ft³/s (7,500 m³/s), the Columbia is the largest river by volume flowing into the Pacific from the Western Hemisphere, and is the fourth-largest in North America. The Columbia's highest recorded flow was 1,240,000 ft³/s (35,113 m³/s), on June 6, 1894. The river flows 1,243 miles (2,000 km) from its headwaters to the Pacific, draining an area of about 258,000 square miles (668,217 km²). |
” |
The article makes the claim that the Columbia is the only river to pass through the Cascades, in the Gorge. Certainly, the Klamath River also cuts through the Cascades (though in less dramatic fashion); and arguments can be made for the Fraser River in BC and the Pit River in California (both of which pass the Cascades near the northern and southern ends of the range, respectively); articles for these rivers all claim to cut through the Cascade mountains.
Certainly, the article ought to be correct, and consistent with the other rivers in question. If there is controversy concerning which other rivers cut through the Cascades, that should be dealt with in some manner.
-- EngineerScotty 05:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that this section is a bit lacking. It should start with an overview of the flora and fauna of the river, before getting into the things that threaten that. Also, it's my understanding that the timber industry, historically, has been detrimental to fish habitat etc., though I'd have to hunt for a source. - Pete 00:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I will be doing the Good Article review here - more soon, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 18:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Pete 08:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
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help)Citation for "three times size of Great Pyramid" and some other stuff here. - Pete ( talk) 21:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a couple o' minor edits tonight: "at numerous times" and changed one of the three uses of "vibrant" to "thriving" - actually stole this word from an article that Google led me to! But someone who knows more about the article (Pete(r)?) should have a look at the two remaining "vibrant"s - it's a good word but not when over-used! --
Martha (
talk)
06:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
In the opening sentence the claim is made:
The cite is from Capt Gray.....who is anything but a valid source, I'd say; non-aboriginal nowledge comprehension of native langauges is not to be trusted, especially in the earliest years of contact (such misreadings are how Canada got its name, from the Algonquian word for "village"). A real source would be a Chinookan-language study, and from what i recall in Chinook Jargon studies/debates while there is a Chinookan name for the river, that's not it; I'll see if I can dig it up, I think it's mentioned in Shaw or Gibbs, who are the main Chinook Jargon source; the name they give for use in C J is that from the Chinookan language. In fairness though, there are a dozen or two languages along the river's route, and if Chinookan is to be here - it is a dead language - then the living (if endangered) languages farther upstream should also be here. I'll check on this Wimahl claim, it may resemble a Chinookan word, but I don't recognize it at all. Skookum1 ( talk) 15:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
William Denison Lyman, The Columbia River (Portland, OR: Binfords & Mort, 1963); 37, 43, 44-47, 50-51; Edmond S. Meany, History of the State of Washington (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1946), 15-16; Meany, Origin of Washington Geographic Names (Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1923), 35, 52-53; Rick Minor, "Settlement and subsistence at the Mouth of the Columbia River" in Prehistoric Places on the Southern Northwest Coast ed. by Robert E. Greengo (Seattle: Burke Museum, 1983), 196-98; Murray Morgan, The Last Wilderness (New York: Viking Press, 1955), 8-9, 18; J. Richard Nokes, Columbia's River (Tacoma: Washington State Historical Society, 1991), 185, 189-91, 193-97; Robert Michael Pyle, Wintergreen (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1996), 44-46; Rick Rubin, Naked Against the Rain (Portland, OR: Far Shore Press, 1999), 3-5, 8, 14-15, 37-49, 61-62, 93-97, 107-21.
So I don't think it's accurate to say that Robert Gray is the authority cited. Of course, more detailed research would be an improvement, and including additional names from further upstream would be great if they can be found. By the way, good luck with the househunt! - Pete ( talk) 16:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The Bonneville image at the top of the article seems a bit washed out. I propose a new image for the top of the article. Maybe the Revelstoke picture? Or this one of the Hanford Reach? Or maybe a flickr image tagged as creative commons, like this one [3]? Northwesterner1 ( talk) 12:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I would be open to alternate images, but I feel that anything we use must display multiple aspects of the river, and invite a number of different stories to be told, along these lines. I don't believe any other image currently in the article comes close. - Pete ( talk) 18:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
is of Lake Windermere, not Columbia Lake, but is already on the Columbia Valley page. Skookum1 ( talk) 18:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I can see your point. The original is here [4]. It's an Army Corps of Engineers photo and is in the public domain for that reason. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 20:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
that ACE site looks really interesting, probably full of all kinds of useful wikipix...I tried searching for "Whatcom" and "Okanogan" just to see what would come up. Nothing did, maybe I wasn't looking in the right place....where did you browse/find/search for the Bonneville Dam pic? Skookum1 ( talk) 22:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I am confused about the meaning of this bit of text, which needs a source:
The Columbia's heavy flow and extreme elevation drop over a short distance give it tremendous capacity for hydroelectricity generation. It was estimated in the 1960s – ’70s that the Columbia represented a fifth of the total hydroelectric capacity on Earth (although these estimates may no longer be accurate.)
Sources seem to use the term "hydroelectric capacity" for existing dams. In this sense the claim here is about comparing the hydroelectric production of the Columbia River dams with the rest of the world's hydroelectric dams. But the mention of the river's flow and elevation drop imply that "capacity" means "potential", whether developed or not. It is hard to believe that the Columbia has a fifth of the world's potential hydroelectric power, but I can maybe believe it once had a fifth of the world's actual production, in the 60s perhaps. Pfly ( talk) 20:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
River | avg flow (kcfs) |
hydro length (mi) |
elev drop (ft) |
kcfs x elev ________ mi |
---|---|---|---|---|
Mississippi River | 450 | 1485 | 800 at Minneapolis | 242 |
Amazon River | 7500 | 900 | 300 at Manaus | 2500 |
Nile River | 100 | 1500 | 1200 at Khartoum, Sudan | 80 |
Columbia River | 265 | 400 | 360 at Snake River | 238 |
According to this website, the UN estimates the world's total "technically exploitable" potential for hydropower is 15 trillion kilowatt-hours." That's 15,000,000,000 MW if I'm not mistaken. The Columbia River dams currently produce 24,149 MW according to List of hydroelectric dams on the Columbia River. I'm sure more could be made, but a fifth of the world's potential would be 3,000,000,000 MW. That's an awful lot more than 24,149. Maybe my math is wrong somewhere. Pfly ( talk) 01:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's another sentence I have trouble with, from the Hydroelectricity subsection:
While hydroelectricity accounts for only 6.5% of energy in the United States, the Columbia and its tributaries provide approximately 60% of the hydroelectric power on the west coast.
First, the grammar and logic struck me as odd and somewhat confusing. Doesn't it seem odd? If nothing else I expected "Pacific Northwest" instead of "west coast". The Columbia and tributaries include some major hydroelectric sites in Idaho and Montana, but none in California.
Second, I looked at the source cited at the end of the sentence, this page, and could not find anything about "60% of the hydroelectric power on the west coast". I browsed the website's other pages for such info with no luck. Further, the page says that hydro accounts for 7.1% of the US energy production, not 6.5%.
So, I'll change the 6.5 to 7.1, move the footnote to just that claim, and add a fact tag to the second claim. I'll see if I can find more info, and think about better wording. Pfly ( talk) 04:24, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There is something else odd about the source footnote here. The ref tag says it is from the "Energy Information Administration, Electric Power Annual, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers". It is from the Energy Information Administration, but I see nothing about the Army Corps of Engineers there. Also, the footnote calls the link "Federal Columbia River Power System], brochure (2003), p. 1." But the actual link is called "Electric Power Annual", published in 2007 with data for 2006. It says nothing at all about the Columbia River. It isn't a brochure and does not have a page 1. In short, something is messed up here. Pfly ( talk) 04:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I just removed the statement altogether, figuring the one I added about the river having a third of the US's hydro potential covers the basic idea (ie, the river can and does produce an awful lot of electricity). Again, the removed statement is here on the talk page in case anyone gets around to figuring it out. Pfly ( talk) 21:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
A recent edit replaced the material below; might be worth making the point about the USACE's predictions and restoring the cited articles. Also, wondering if this section should mention Kettle Falls and Cascades Rapids, which though not as significant as Celilo, were also major fishing and trading sites. - Pete ( talk) 21:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
And here's an alternate version of the above, influenced by what Pfly suggests below. I'm using "Modern History" instead of "River Modfications" because the dam content outweighs the current dredging project, so there's really only one BIG "modification," but there are many uses of that modification.
Northwesterner1 ( talk) 07:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm glad you're bringing this up. To sum up the choices, which I think you presented well:
The current sections are the result of some reorganizing I did, but needn't stay that way if they're not working. I'm interested to hear what others think. - Pete ( talk) 23:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think I know enough yet to contribute much to the ongoing discussion of overall organization, but I see quite a few low-level, nit-picky things that I'd like to change. I want to ask first, though, and not just flail away. I'd like to add conversion templates for virtually all of the imperial-to-metric conversions in the article. The templates eliminate the possibility of simple math errors in the conversions; they solve the "no-wrap" problem for each set of quantities and units; they spell out the primary unit, as suggested by the Manual of Style, and they abbreviate the secondary unit; they will accept a parameter that auto-wikilinks either the primary or secondary unit or both, and this is handy for linking terms like "acre" and "ha" on first use. They don't handle the hyphenated phrases like "16-mile tributary" very well because of the hyphen, but those phrases can be done "by hand". I see minor inconsistencies in the conversions here and there throughout the article, and I believe the templates would fix them all. I'd volunteer to do them if you have no objections. While I'm at it, I would also add no-break codes between all digitized numbers and units (or nouns) not fixed by the conversion templates. These minor things might or might not survive GA but certainly not FA, and they should be fixed in any case. Finetooth ( talk) 22:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
For streamflow discharge there is Template:CubicFeetPerSecAndMeters. I've used it a little (see Jur River for example), but decided I preferred doing cubic feet and cubic metres per second by hand. It appears that the template can't display results with commas (like 14,300 cu ft/s instead of 14300). Thought I'd mention it though -- perhaps useful. Pfly ( talk) 04:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>I'm finished with the conversions. The Convert template worked for stream flow OK with "per second" spelled out separately from the conversions. I decided not to use the template on the billion gallon conversions because they looked OK already and because I didn't want to change billion to 1,000,000,000 and get myself banished from the editing corps. If any of the article's numbers change in the future, it will be easy to plug the new numbers into the existing templates. I also inserted no-break codes everywhere I thought they were needed; 14 dams, for example. I may have missed a few but not many. Finetooth ( talk) 03:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I was requested to have a look at this article and make suggestions. I looked at a lot of other river articles, and without singling any one out, basically I didn't see one that was as good as this one. Don't know what the requirements are for Good Article, but this one seems to be at the front of the rivers at least. One teeeeeeny little quibble -- should the alternative names "Great River of the West" and "Oregon" also be listed as historic names of the river? Mtsmallwood ( talk) 05:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I gotta stop finding these, the work never ends! But...this 4-part OPB series is awfully cool, and probably has lots of stuff that could be used for this article, and/or related ones... http://news.opb.org/series/2007/columbia/ - Pete ( talk) 07:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
I see a sentence in the "Drainage basin" section that is missing a word or phrase. It says, "For its first 200 miles (320 km) the Columbia flows northwest, through Windermere Lake and the town of Invermere, then northwest around the to Golden and into Kinbasket Lake." Something should go between "the" and "to", but I'm not sure what was intended. Finetooth ( talk) 19:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The MOS advises generally against repeating in the section heads any words used in the article title. I changed the "Wider world explores the river" to "Explorations" with that in mind. This is just a suggestion. "Early explorations" or something else might be better. Finetooth ( talk) 21:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
<outdent> I boldly restored the originals. They can always be changed again if consensus is reached on what would be best. Finetooth ( talk) 00:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
State (of Washington) cracking down on illegal frost-control dams - Pete ( talk) 21:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
turns out there's a Biodiversity Atlas underway funded by the BC Gov with the participation of Selkirk College. The main links off maps.gov.bc.ca didn't work but I found this which gives statistics on the Canadian length etc. and is a spinoff of the main project page. I don't have time to "mine" the article and add relevant contents here, but there was a need for Canadian-side citations/data so this should provide some of hte main stuff. Skookum1 ( talk) 16:48, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
i.e. the indigenous peoples section but in ref to Kennewick Man and other early-digs/finds; I'm mostly thinking of only one addition, but I don't know where to find the citation; so many hundred years ago, IIRC about 1500BP, maybe 3000BP, there was a pottery-using culture (presumably also pottery-making but finds are marginal); buried in alluvial ash or whatever, evidently wiped out by natural disaster. Bona fide but I don't know more than that tidbit, remembered from the CHINOOK-L listserve's discussions of various things. Oh, another aboriginal name for th river was Sesotkwa or Tsesotkwa, but nobody knew which language it was from; similarly when Simon Fraser started down the Fraser it was in the hopes to prove it was the Tacoutche Tesse, the Columbia; although once again in whose language I don't know, as that's not a Carrier-looking name (ko=river) nor is it Salishan (meen/een=river). The Chinookan name that turns up is Wihml - Wimhl? - with only one vowel; whether etymologically it means "big"+"river" I don't know. Oh, there's another "ancient" dig in the upper Columbia somewhere; might be in that diversity atlas or resources connected to it...basic drift is maybe there should be an archaoelogical section; won't be large but worthwhile.
When I look at this article with Safari it has a scrollbar where about 5-10% isn't displayed in the main window no matter how large I size my browser window (up to 1650px wide). It does not behave this way with Firefox and this is the only page that I can recall seeing this. After going through the code I've determined that this is caused by a known problem with Template:ImageStackRight. Template:Imagestack seems to work better, but if I use it to replace the existing template then it causes more problems than it fixes. Maybe someone can come up with a way to avoid the ImageStackRight template and maintain the layout?
Another thing, I took a neat photo from a viewpoint today but in deference to all the hard work that has gone into this page I'll put it here and let others decide if and where it belongs.
Cheers, Cacophony ( talk) 06:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
In his GA review, User:Ruhrfisch strongly recommended making the footnote formatting consistent. Specifically, "Internet refs should have title, publisher, author (if known), and date accessed." A glance at the footnotes shows me that he's right. I'm volunteering to fix these over the coming days unless anyone objects. Finetooth ( talk) 04:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>OK, I'll make that change. Meanwhile, I've found a Canadian source for the lake elevation here, 820 meters, which is very close to what we've used. I'll use it instead of Google Earth for that particular bit of data. Finetooth ( talk) 23:23, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
<outdent>Pete, you and the others have done a terrific job with all the rest, and that's what makes doing these citations worthwhile. I wouldn't spend this much time on an article that was otherwise in bad shape. I'm motivated partly by a desire to see this big river article reach FA. But you can help me perhaps with another nit. I have a question I can't easily resolve about the Ronda book citation, #27. I replaced a dead link with a working one to the on-line Google version of the book, but the citation should include a specific page number rather than the whole book. Do you happen to know what it is? Finetooth ( talk) 17:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Ruhrfisch brought up the possibility of making a new map for the Columbia on my talk page. Would this be useful and if so what would you like on it? Note this would be an addition, not a replacement for the existing map. Kmusser ( talk) 14:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
There's also the Bush River, the Sullivan, the Cummins, the Kinbasket, the Wood...all from the Rockies. it was the Goldstream River from the Selkirks I was thinking of, but there's also Bigmouth Creek and Downie Creek and others which are very large; "creek" in BC is often something larger than a "river".....I'll see what kind of hydrlogic data there is out there; I used to work for MoE HQ so maybe there's somebody whose back I can scratch there who can dig up inthe info (that was back in '95 or '93 though....)
As a precursor I made a small locator map at Image:ColumbiaRiverLocMap.png, though that's really intended for non-English wikis - a more detailed map is in the works for this one. Kmusser ( talk) 17:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Here's a neat map that might bear some similarity to what we need. Also, that page has descriptions of many place names along the river, including The Dalles among many others. Doesn't much help on the native name of the Columbia, though it does mention an early name applied to the upper Columbia by A. MacKenzie. - Pete ( talk) 22:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
By the way I test-sent myself something from that Columbia River Project map you found off maps.gov.bc.ca - there's no copyright mark on it, implying that it, like other types of generated maps, is public domain. That would be a good one for showing basins, I guess; it's the same data as in Basemap and the LRDWC but to me isn't as "clean" looking; but those generated maps with copyright markings on them. There's yet another really neat system which I've been hunting for to find again; it can do layers and all kinds of stuff, all public domain. You might google {Columbia River" and "ArcView" and see what comes up.....that's not the system I'm thinking of but there might be some Arcview Applications around re the region, if not hydrologic then geologic or ?? Looking for that other map system for some aboriginal-related map-making projects, but useful across the board....if I can find it again.... Skookum1 ( talk) 22:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
[undent] as far as the native-name goes I think David Thompson's stuff is online, maybe JSTOR or some other pay-for, maybe canadiana.org; not sure about Fraser's journal but I know, or I think I know, that he uses Tacoutche Tesse, but there he's using MacKenzie'snames/notes...one comment about natives names for "river", one thing you learn from books like the Sto:lo Historical Atlas that natives named geography on diffeerent paradigms; different parts of a body of water or of a mouhntain could have names, not just the thing as one object or just the peak....different names up and down the Columbia would yes havebeen all those different languages....but also perhaps local "spots" on the river; like the confusion over the name Canada, if you knoew the story. Sto:lo/staulo just means "river", that one river = wherever you happen to be; I think in Secwepemc it may mean the Thomspon, although in the modern paradigm it's from Halqemeylem and refers to the Fraser); I don't know the St'at'imcets and Nlaka'pamux names; there's maps showing hundreds ofnamed locations, but I don't recall one for the river as a river.....one thing to suggest is writing the Colville Tribes and Grande Ronde Community and asking their resident linguists.... Skookum1 ( talk) 05:56, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
New map added, comments are welcome. I think all major tributaries are on there, but I only labeled the very largest of them as I ran out of room. I included cities over 50,000 in the basin and then additional cities that are on the river itself. Too much? Not enough? Kmusser ( talk) 17:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) This is an idea I've toyed around with myself -- a map showing the rapids and falls of the lower Columbia before the dams -- because.. well, you are not the only one who can't always keep track of which one was where! I sketched out a rough map or two some time ago but never finished anything. I got stuck on some of the lesser known rapids. I'll move it from the back to the front burner, so to speak. I have a few books with (modern) maps of the Gorge, pre-dams. There is a very lovely set of Lewis and Clark atlases that also have a wealth of info on the Gorge rapids (something like $50 each though, too much more me, but nice to browse in the bookstore). Pfly ( talk) 23:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh and I meant to say, nice map Karl! Your relief always looks great, and excellent color sense. Pfly ( talk) 23:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Started looking for those data sets; think they're in one of the GeoSciences Canada links I've been browsing just now, but found this, GeoGratis free images; haven't scanned the page enough to see usage/copyright conditions but to me it looks like this is public-domain data; pretty specialized datasets but still capable of buildling topographic and river-route displays, if you know your mapping softwares; anyway looks like some useful image/map-building materials and mayube some useful images; I'll see what the feds have on the Columbia River per se later; I've got to go see about getting one of my amps either fixed or replaced (I'm a guitar player/performer...and have to play tonight...) oh this is the entry page for GeoGratis and this is the GeoSciences Data Repository page I found it through, from Natural Resources Canada. Skookum1 ( talk) 17:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm no expert on database copyright issues and I don't know exactly what the deal is in Canada, but in Britain the databases made by the Ordnance Survey are definitely under copyright (see especially Ordnance Survey#Access to data and criticisms). As I understand it this kind of thing is the reason for projects like OpenStreetMap. I'm not making a case for one side or the other, just pointing to some more info on it. Pfly ( talk) 19:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not very good with the niceties of disambiguation. I never know whether to propose a page move or just to create a disambig link at the top of the page. In any case, something should probably be done about Lake Bonneville. Northwesterner1 ( talk) 21:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
A lot of dams in the Columbia Basin are run-of-the-river without sizable reservoirs. Waneta Dam is one of these I think. It doesn't really have a reservoir, just a "forebay", ie, "Waneta Dam Forebay" (er, I think, suddenly I don't quite trust my grasp of hydropower terminology). Pfly ( talk) 05:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Just wanted to drop by about this, which I've raised before; solution to the title problem presented itself tonight while I was tidying Boat Encampment - the old region name in the BC Big Bend is " Big Bend Country" which I'll use for that title; it's a subarea of Columbia Country like Columbia Valley and the Arrow Lakes; it used to be a relatively settled area, with lots of wayside towns like the Fraser Canyon used to have, too; that was when the Columbia was the route of the TransCanada, as only the CPR used Rogers Pass; so Big Bend of the Columbia River, if it's ever needed/written, can/should have a dab line "for the one in...etc.". Skookum1 ( talk) 06:23, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I was looking for other stuff about elsewhere in BC and came across a Columbia Basin page on "Living Landscapes", a Royal BC Museum webproject; the Human history page looks like it has some interesting stuff but the natural history page looks like it has some material useful for this page, and for Columbia Basin. Also found this but you probably already know about it (?) Skookum1 ( talk) 15:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Although Columbia Lake is nominally considered the headwater of the Columbia, ultimately the source is the Columbia Icefield, hence the name (as also of Mount Columbia. Which little upper tributaries exactly come from the icefiled I'll have to look at later; I had a vicious stomach flu yesterday and have to mobilate myself for errands and some fresh air right now; though this was worth mentioning, maybe someone can stitch a mention into the article on it? Also found this which if you zoom in on BC is interesting, more for the way the Fraser basin was dealt with; but useful anyway perhaps. The diverted areas shown are, from N to S, the Nechako, Bridge and Cheakamus Rivers; only Nechako changes actual basins, though, so I don't see the point, i.e. there's other basin-to-same basin diversions...I'll have to read up the backinfo on this page to se what's up with that. Not that the Whatshan is a big deal, nor Alouette Lake nor Jones Lake; usually these national-level things are complied with only a loose understanding of BC geography/history, though.....(my stock complaint, no?)_ Skookum1 ( talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
This is for Karl re heh free - "unrestricted use license" is who they put it - map data from the Canadian government. It's here in various forms; I know I tried to learn map-building software with it but I'm not up on how to use it at all; I haven't read the license but what they're sending up basically is raw data, in zip files of point-sets as i recall but I haven't gone through the links on this page yet; I just happened to find it while researching something else; have a look, Karl, might be useful; and there might be other resources related to the Columbia region just like there was on the CRD plan or whstever it's called, the one with the interactive map. And this still ssn't the BC-generated maps I mentioned....they have to do with minerals and such so mayb e they're pay-for now, but the claims records and government assays are public property etc.....are the vectors that make the maps themselves tnangibly copyrightable. Can a curve, an corner, a jagged age - a natural form - can they be copyrighted? Amazing....Anyway these data sets are apparently the cat's meow; check out what there is; maybe it's useless for what you need. Maybe not.
There is a HUGE difference between 1800s (big deal, we knew that) and 219 B.C. Is there not some carbon dating or some such? ~ WikiDon ( talk) 21:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
When ONE author says: ""It is a near certainty..." that is POV. WikiDon ( talk)
(outdent) The Hayes book is pretty good -- I have it too -- but I'm not so sure about this bit. I have another book that makes some effort to debunk the notion of Chinese/Japanese ships to America way back when, if I remember correctly. I'll check it again and see what it says exactly. The notion that Polynesians reached America is much more plausible, I think -- but not the Columbia River area. Anyway... checking.... Pfly ( talk) 01:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
[undent]Two immediate suggestions come to mind: the indigenous people's section needs more work (and I grant it's complciatedd stuff, esp. to get it right while remaining NPOV and also culturally sebnsitivei....). The other spins off your point about D. Thompson, who pls remember was unlike L&C not on a mission of national expansion/exploration, but was primarily a fur trader and only incidentally assignged to the job of finding out which of the rivers wewt of hte mountains was the Columbia; this is why he buggered around up by Kootenae House and didn't head for hte Pacific straight out like A. Mackenzie had done; he already knew it was there and company profitability had to do with maintaining existing trade, not imperial expansion and glory; and he also apparently liked hunting and hanging out in the hills. "Starggazer" wasn't just because he was a navigator (fun typo; I'd hit that up first as nabigavor....ah, what the mountain stars of the Kootenays must have looked like back then.... So I was going to suggest a section on "the search for hte Columbia", as the looking-for-it overland is just as involved and mult-personalitied as the coastal story; Simon Fraser's story is also involved of course, and certain others. I'll try and do what I can on the indigenous section, though it would help to ahve a WA/OR indigenous person or two to contribute as we have in BC with User:OldManRivers on Skwxwu7mesh and KWakwaka'wakw stuff. I think a map showing hte Great Rivere of the West (La grande fleuve de'l'Ouest and that mysetrious Grand mer d'louest, as a giant bay - either the Georgia-Puget area was meant, or a flooded San Jouquin-Sacrmaneto? About the "first contact thing, ambye the wording "first confirmed visit to teh area by a non-indigenous person was....". "European" opens too many cans of worms, and I dn't like it for period Brits and Americans; it's anti-chrnoistic, a modern term with differnt meanings in those times; and using it cuts out any need to parallel mention that there were not confirmed contacts from ASia or Polyneisa, though these ahve been theorized (and the Polynesian largely dismissed). OK, off to play some music. BTW Pfly had a kid, don't know if it's boy or girl yet....02:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
that line has always bothered me, although the exception to it I'm thinking of doesn't pass through the Cascades from one side to the other; it loops through it - the Skagit River; I guess it never crosses the divide of the Cascades, though....but is such a concept of a "divide" on a range pierced by, or spanning, the Columbia, even relevant? Skookum1 ( talk) 03:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
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