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As far as I can tell, collectivism is nothing but a pejorative term used by followers of Rand's objectionablism "Objectivism". Accordingly, the article should be reduced to a statement of that fact or removed altogether. This is no place for proselytising on behalf of Objectivism, which is all that this article does.
Shorne 16:29, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Agreed!
In response to Sam's request for help:
The reference section in this article, I am sorry to say, is absolutely pitiful. No personal offence to anyone, but I, for one, would be embarassed to submit a writing about issues of this magnitude with only an Encyclopedia (a Catholic one: Catholicism, also collectivism?) and the Dictionary attached!
There are so many unsubstantiated claims in this article, I don't even know where to begin. A central question to start with is whether persons (often generic) the article mentions as collectivists actually title themsleves as such. The article needs to -show- that it is well-reserached precisely due to the over-lapping, loaded nature of the term. So it is strange that the latter is qualified on several occasions, but then the article proceeds to making various unsubtantiated claims. One risk this article faces is with collectivism being used to encompass virtually any ideology that is not pronouncedly individualist and perhaps even explicitly 'anti-collectivist' — that is, as synonymous to cooperation (versus competition), social (versus individual), private (versus public), etc. It quickly becomes very muddled (i.e. autocracy or meritiocracy, for example). This article desprately needs to explain -whom- today uses the term and how it is viewed, especially by those alleged as being collectivists. Do they see themsleves as such? Irrespectively, how do 'they' approach the term? What about their critics? Et cetera, etc. These are question that need to be better addressed, and this means a substantive well-reserach and well-referenced exposition. El_C
Exactly. It is always difficult to tell serious editors that much of their writings is untenable, but at this point, this is the position I am leaning towards. The ideological juxtapositions this article makes are a product of treating the term collectivism as an epistemological category rather than a concept grounded in social, historical, cultural, etc. reality. Such juxtapositions cannot be the result of primary resreach, a prerequisite for these must be a scholarly account of, to start with, who employs the term: in politics, in academia and the social sciences, in literature and the arts, etc. Using an 'is not accepted by all' with respect to Corportism, Marxism, Meritocracy, etc. should most certainly not serve as a reason for not telling the reader who, for example, termed Meritocracy as collectivist, etc., and why. Names must be named, works must be cited. If not, then the etymological, philological, etc. uses of the term will have to do. Sorry. El_C
In responce to Mihnea's request for help:
Hmm...seems commie-ism tisn't the only page affected by this endless mind fuck. Okay, so what do we have here...? (First off, you guys need to sit back and talk about what gets included at all. That's just in general.)
Well, the first problem is that the opening paragraph tells me barely anything about what the article treads on. One can't define something by what it opposes. It seems too general as well. Something a tad more specific is needed.
Okay, moving on, we have Usage. Is it a perjorative term all the time? Is that only a western thing, or is it considered good among eastern Europeans? To socialists? To communists? Who really uses this term anymore?
Supporters and Detractors needs more. WAY more. We are given Chomsky and Rand, but this tells us nothing unless we know who they are. You CAN talk about them, you just need to define whom a detractor might be, and whom a supporter might be. Anarchist is too general. It's good to mention the other ideologies and kinds of supporters, but there's little good information here.
Theory: TELLS ME NOTHING! F MINUS!
Okay, with Politics, we're getting to the meat of it. Fascism is the first example...and yet up to this point we've been led to believe that this a purely leftist doctrine. Why wasn't this mentioned before? And, barring that, why have we been concerntrating on anarchists if this is true? Fascism needs a better definition as well: are we talking about Mussolini? Hitler? Pinochet? Franco? Give more direct examples.
Other wise pretty good. The last paragraph is okay, but it seems a little loaded. It could be put in a far more NPOV manner.
Economics: Pretty good. Needs a little expansion but otherwise fine.
Practice: And here, I assume, is where the problem is. This needs a hell of a lot more. Basically all there are are examples, which tells us little. One little place in Denmark does not collectivism make. You need to talk about Soviet collectivism a lot more...but don't even MENTION Stalin except as a reference. Maybe a little more, but leave the deaths thing alone. He killed people. He's a monster. He's an awful human being. HE'S NOT THE GOD OF COLLECTIVISM. HIS BRAND JUST HAPPENED TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE (I would argue that alone makes it not collectivism, but I'm not debating here...but I'm not treying to undermine the magnitude of Stalin's murders. I'm just making a point 'bout neutrality.)! Anywho, get over it. You can say it lead to deaths, but don't politicize it...He's too much of a bastard not to provoke something, you see.
Anti-collectivism: First sentence is AWFUL. Lots of interesting stuff but it seems to be a bit helter skelter with what the direction is supposed to be. It needs to be more concise. It needs to have a fairly smooth transition quality.
My verdict: forget about arguing about the politics of it, whether it works or not, whether Stalin killed every person in Russia and Europe with it, and learn to write. Certain sections are so woefully lacking, it's laughable. Others are so jumpy, it's embarassing. And some...blech. The article is entirely uninformative. You need to put all the politcs aside, and just start over. Don't talk about the deaths until you feel it warrants it. Or, make a page abot the results of Stalin's "collectivism". And what about Pol Pot? didn't he pull that crap and try to call it collectivism?
I categorically refuse to become involved in terms of philosphical debate. It's too moronic (on both sides).
And linking to the Catholic Encyclopedia? It's so dreadfully NPOV I almost threw up. Consider their articles on communism and socialism. COME ON. Find a better link.
But hey, happy Halloween.
PS: Shorne: just read your above statement. I entirely disagree. "Collectivism" was used before Rand, and I know it's used positively in some circles (even if it may or may not have begun negatively). [Was used positively in the First International shortly after the Anarchists were expelled El_C ] It's the term that we use to describe "this stuff" (whatever that is...which is one of the biggest problems with this article). It needs a place in the encyclopedia.
PPS: You know what you guys should try? Conservatives (American Libertarians, whatever) think like leftists. Think like dirty pinko commies. It gives one more perspective. Liberals (Social Democrats, socialists, communists, whatever) think like rightests. Think like dirty poor people bashing tories. It gives one more perspective. It also lets you guys see the other side of the argument. User:Yossarian (sig added by Sam [ Spade] 01:43, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC))
Devil advocacy (almost perfect timing for that pun) aside, we cannot speak about politics, theory, supporters-detractors, etc., with the question of who really uses this term anymore? being left unanswered. So, for that reason alone, I disagree with the remainder of Yossarian's approach. It seems too hasty at this point to be building the roof without knowing where the foundation is layed, if at all. El_C
I sort of realize that now...but I think most of my points are valid once the definition of the article is defined.
I'm pleased to learn you do. Many of your points could become valid, yes, when and/or if these defintions are established. I am of the opinion though that many could not be defined as some here intend since they likely will be proven to be incorrect defintions for the term (but I am, of course, far from infallible, we'll see).
I think the problem is that this is getting a bit too intellectual
I think it is more precise to say too abstract, methodologically inconsistent, and disjointed. This article, though, is very much in need of intellectual clarity, which I think -is- actually what you meant.
[T]hink about who reads this article (other than hard core wikipedians). What does the basic highschool/college student/casual observer think of when someone says "collectivism". You don't want to confuse the readership..
Absolutely true. At the same time, one has to be intellectually honest with the reader — this is esepcailly pressing with respects to the uses of the term throughout history, and just as significantly, to what extent (and when). And, obviously, contemporization (in various areas, as one can clearly see from the more recently published non-historical works I cited) must be firmly established.
The article as it is is far too rambling to be any use. And the theory section (which is one of the most important for anyone reading up on this) is disgraceful.
Indeed. As for the theory, as Shorne mentioned (and I tend to agree), nothing unified of the sort (has been proven to) exist today — at least not in any appreciable sense that I know of (again, for this divergence, see sources I cited).
Theory: could it be there needs to be a distinction of two articles: one concerning collectivism as a theory of society (Marx?), and one as a practice (communist collectivism, Lenin, Stalin, etc.) Anyway, my point is, one needs to think of what the GENERAL definition of this is. Otherwise, it becomes confusing and misleads a lot of people.
Again, I think you are being to hasty to jump the gun here. If the use of the term was as 'limited' as I suspect it was amongst Marxist(-Leninists), then it would be inappropriate to go on at length (seemingly, invariably in 'primary' writing style) as to these. More pertinent articles already exist. We avoid catch-22s by qualifying their carch-22 characteristics — likewise, in the case that this aforementioned 'limitation' proves true, we avoid confusion precisely through an explanation of this 'limitation.' As stated, central to this is a self-proclaimed affiliation with the term (or lack thereof, or irrespectively, its relevancy/prevelance), and how. El_C
The problem is, I don't know a heck of a lot about collectivism (whatever we define it is). My grievence with the article is the lack of readablity ... I was thinking more like an English teacher looking for a coherent content.
Fair enough, that's pivotal for the article, too. I, however, was thinking more like an historian and a social theorist — to reiterate my main point on this front though, the latter always needs to preced the former (we can always copyedit grammar and logical coherence, even expand on substance, but in order to do all encyclopedicly, this this substance needs to exist, to be made explicable a priori; meaning, needs to be appreciable enough as per the given use/emphasis accorded ). El_C
I still firmly believe that the present article is largely untenable. Please do not merely cite (copy & paste) these sources unless the article undergoes the (dramatic) changes recommended by myself and Shorne (a request only). El_C
I don't know what happened, but we had a few talk page errors. Please be careful, and clean up any duplication. Thanx. Sam [ Spade] 14:47, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
When I visited a good friend of mine in VA for a week during the spring (a friend, who, btw, holds a strong affinity to the various firearms he owns – we had a good time at the firing range!), he gave me that book to read. I confess to not having finished it. The book seems to sway between the anectodal and sensetional melodramatics on the one hand, and the tedius on the other, but it does provide some important insights into the policies. At the same time, much of the data and analyses of which appears to be highly distorted, possibly even intellectually dishonest — I have read several articles which I thought demonstrated this quite convincingly (though it is somewhat of an unfair statement on my part as I have yet to finish reading the book). All that said, I am actually very much in favour of having a firearm in every American household. Try to guess why, I believe you will be pleasently unsurprised! (well, maybe not so much pleasently :p ). El_C
I'd prefer to see them in harmony :) What I have learned most from this article and talk page is that Collectivism is poorly defined. Maybe we should just put it on VfD ;) Sam [ Spade] 16:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, harmony, we're all for that, I'm sure! But first, the foundation, then the painting, roofing, cat-door, etc. :) I think an article on Collectivism should exist, but certainly not in its current form. If you submitt a VfD, I will fully support you in this — even once deleted, it isn't 'really' deleted, we can always turn to whatever grains of truth exist in the original for use in a forthcoming rewrite. El_C
Here here. -- Yossarian 00:27, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Now that you've all seen and discussed Sam's version of this article, please see the version that I am trying to defend: [1]
You will find that it answers many of your concerns, and, though it is not perfect, it is at least better than the alternative. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The introduction exhibits great promise, but much of the rest is highly problematic. I hope that I get a chance to provide you with a more extensive response soon.
Best regards,
Hello, I would just like to add my own thoughts here.
First, I thought this article was a good one on Collectivism, even if somewhat short and not very in-depth. I did not think it was a plug for Ayn Rand's philosophy. I think the article was simply reporting the fact that one often finds this term used often by Rand, her followers and others who subscribe to right-libertarian political philosophies to describe the philosophies they are opposed to. The term “collectivism” is a common term used in political science and sociology and is to be found in various dictionaries or encyclopedia on political science and political philosophy.
Second, there was, and I think there still is, a group of left-anarchists who called themselves Collectivists, a term that was used by anarchist thinkers Mikhail Bakunin and James Guillaume. This was a good term to describe their preferred economic system of ownership of the means of production by collectives of workers associations. This system was contrasted to Marx's idea of collectivising production by concentrating it all in the hands of a proletarian state. There are Anarcho-Collectivists, along with their close relatives Anarcho-Communists and Anarcho-Syndicalists, who have claimed that while their system advocates economic collectivism, it promotes individualism as regards social relations. Some like Peter Kropotkin, one of the foremost Anarcho-Communist thinkers, have even argued that a system like anarchist communism offers advantages that best sustains individuality. Critics of these positions have argued that economic collectivisation tends to lead towards social/political collectivisation. These critics, like the Anarcho-Individualists, Anarcho-Mutualists and Anarcho-Capitalists, would argue that social/political individualism is best supported by economic individualism.
Third, the article has only given examples of economic collectivist societies. While the article gives a quote by Mussolini, I thought the article would have been much better had it given racism, Nazism, Fascism, Stalinism, militant nationalism and religious fundamentalism as examples of overtly politically/socially collectivist ideologies and/or societies.
Kubilay Ertuna
You deleted some stuff out of the intro believing it was POV. Here is a definition of collectivism from Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary ...
And this is from Encyclopedia Britannica...
It doesn't look to me like it was POV but goes along with this understanding. RJII 14:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Do any of you really know what true collectivism is? == == ==
--Phalus
This article is pretty bad. Let's fix it, by replacing it with sourceable material. Right now it looks like editors are just making up stuff off the top of their heads. I'm putting in a new intro. My sources for this are the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary and Encyclopedia Britannica. RJII 05:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster: "1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members 2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior -- see HOLISM"
Encyclopedia Britannica: "any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class. Collectivism may be contrasted with individualism (q.v.), in which the rights and interests of the individual are emphasized."
I plan on deleting the following unless sources are provided:
RJII 02:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm mostly looking at this article from the standpoint of issues regarding anarchism. I'm really not comfortable with how this term is being defined, particularly in comparison to individualism. This page suggests that collectivism is almost in direct opposition to individualism, even aggressive against individual freedom. I don't think many or any so-called collectivist anarchists oppose the liberty of the individual. Mikhail Bakunin, (who, according to anarchism, espoused collectivism) once said that "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." L. Susan Brown argues that all anarchists are individualist, but divides individualism between instrumental individualism and existential individualism. The difference, she argues, is only that instrumental individualists believe in the freedom of people to accomplish things and compete (ala liberalism), whereas existential individualists sees that freedom as an end in itself (ala anarchist communism). My point being that this page needs to note collectivism's relation to individualism, because it remains unclear (although is certainly not always as hostile as this article seems to suggest). Sarge Baldy 20:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that a number of people have had problems with the EB definition, I don't know why we'd use it, just because it's "sourced". It doesn't say anything this academic source doesn't say, except it says it in a very negative way. Where the source I'm using says that collectivists put group goals over individual goals, the EB source puts it as collectivism "subordinating" individuals. They mean the same thing, it's just one isn't loaded. We don't define individualism as a philosophy whereby individuals "subordinate" the larger group, because that would be completely biased. Instead, you'd say it's a philosophy where individual goals are placed above group goals. The EB article essentially seems to be describing vertical collectivism while utterly neglecting horizontal. Sarge Baldy 19:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean: "Collectivists oppose individualism and its focus on individual autonomy and will, arguing that it is impossible to free oneself from the influence of society without becoming a hermit"???? Individualists do NOT want to free themselves from the influence of society. They simply want to be free from being the victims of force used against them by others in society. They simply want to be treated as ends in themselves (to use Kant's words) instead of as mere means to the ends of others to be forced around by society. In other words they simply want to interact with others in society on a peaceful voluntary basis. To claim that they want to be free from the "influence" of society is preposterous. That is not what individualism is about. It has nothing to do with being a "hermit". Individualists WANT to interact with others in a society. It's about the METHOD of interaction, either peaceful or by force.
Avner Greif, a very prominent figure in economics, economic history, and game theory these days, uses the term "collectivism" to mean a set of cultural beliefs that "support an economic self-enforcing collective punishment, horizontal agency relations, segregation, and an ingroup social communications network." See his contribution to an anthology, "The Frontiers of the New Institutional Economics" ( 1997) for the context. I don't know how that source intersects with the partisan splits I see on this talk page. Orthogonally, I'd hope. -- Christofurio 02:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Note to -- Vision Thing --. It is considered very bad form to revert a page and then in the subject line to imply that it is the result of a consensus on the discussion page. As you are well aware, there is no such consensus. The claim is false. Please refrain from this sort of aggressive and discourteous editing. The discussion should continue without a revert war. -- Cberlet 13:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Present intro excludes mainstream definition and includes following part: "Collectivism is often based on a view of human beings as "social animals", who need the companionship and support of others of their kind in order to survive and thrive. Collectivists oppose individualism and its focus on individual autonomy and will, arguing that it is impossible to free oneself from the influence of society without becoming a hermit. Collectivists believe that society shapes many aspects of an individual's personality, and that individualistic attempts to separate individuals from society and from each other can be psychologically or even physically harmful." which implies that individualist don’t believe that they need other people to survive and thrive, and that they want to separate from society. That’s simply wrong and biased. Because my attempts to make intro neutral are constantly reverted I’m putting POV tag on. -- Vision Thing -- 09:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if there are any individuals or groups that call themselves "collectivist" in the present day. I have certainly seen legions of self-proclaimed anti-collectivists, but no self-proclaimed collectivists. If the term is used exclusively (or overwhelmingly) by anti-collectivists, we should mark it as a pejorative. -- Nikodemos 18:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Other than the article provided above by Christofurio, I have never seen any piece of writing that supports something called "collectivism". It seems that the term "collectivism" is used overwhelmingly by those people who oppose what they see as "collectivism". -- Nikodemos 14:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia must do more than just quote from other encyclopedias - or worse, dictionaries. We must also strive to present information in a NPOV manner. "Subordination" is POV - but I'll accept it as long as we make it clear that it's what Britannica says, not the Absolute Truth. -- Nikodemos 19:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the Merriam-Webster definition of collectivism can be found here, and it does not correspond with the text quoted by IndividualistAnarchist. -- Nikodemos 19:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
That is the abridged dictionary. The authoritative dictionary, The Merriam-Webster Third International Dictionary, Unabridged entry is this:
1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members 2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior -- see HOLISM 3 : 2COLLECTIVE 2, 3
TheIndividualist 00:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
<------This is a serious encyclopedia, not an out of date abridged dictionary. Get serious. Cite a serious scholar.-- Cberlet 02:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you wish to add that unabridged definition to the intro, TheIndividualist? I would not remove it, of course, but I would ensist that the definition is provided in its entirety, and then I would go look for different definitions in different dictionaries. I think this is a bad idea, because it would turn our introduction into little more than a collection of dictionary definitions (some of which describe the same concept and some of which don't).
I think the intro as it stands now is perfectly acceptable. Do you agree? If yes, we should remove the POV tag. -- Nikodemos 15:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the dictionary definitions from the introduction. The introduction, after all, is intended to be an overview of the content of the article; in this case, the very first section of the article notes that there is no universally-agreed upon definition of collectivism. Therefore, presenting a dictionary definition in the intro as if it was the commonly-accepted definition of collectivism is inappropriate. Few encyclopedia articles rely on a dictionary definition, and this case, in particular, seems like a poor place to start. I think that, instead, it might make sense to have at least a mention of anti-collectivism in the intro, since the term would seem to be, in the modern world, used most often by groups that define themselves in opposition to it. -- Aquillion 08:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
would vertical collectivism not just be totalitarianism instead of collectivism? sounds so to me, reading this article. or else totalism, too much of those words anyway-- Lygophile 07:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The Triandis article explicitly talks about fascism as Vertical Collectivism om page 119 [4]. Intangible 20:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
My apologies for not discussing here sooner. There is clearly no consensus on whether or not Fascist societies were individualist or collectivist. Quite honestly they incorporated elements of both but arguably were aimed at empowering powerful individuals. They remained firm in their support of Social Darwinism which is a form of vertical individualism that views collective concern as unreasonable. I simply edited the article to point out a more clear example of vertical collectivism which is Marxist-Leninist societies. Whether or not Fascist societies were collectivist is debatable as many Capitalist societies have strong elements of collectivism as well. No society is purely anything and it doesn't have to be. Full Shunyata 12:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
There are other sources than the scholar I quoted. The German militarist, Friederich von Bernhardi, praised the virtues of Darwinian war in strong evolutionary terms in his influential book Germany and the Next War. Bernhardi claimed war was a "biological necessity" and that it "gives a biologically just decision, since its decisions rest on the very nature of things." Bernhardi dismissed the idea of peaceful cooperation as a "presumptuous encroachment on the natural laws of development." and said "war is a universal law of nature." (As quoted by Ashley Montagu in Man in Process, World Pub. Co., 1961, pp. 76-77). If you want, we can edit this article together to include both views. Full Shunyata 12:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, "vertical collectivism" is a term coined by Triandis. Obviously you won't find anyone who contradicts his findings on VC, because no one else uses the term. So you must look at the definition of VC and see if it is consistent with the findings of other researchers on the subject of fascism. In any case, it seems that far too much time and effort has been spent on trying to figure out what societies are or aren't VC, when you should have written a more detailed description of the two kinds of collectivism and left the readers to decide what societies they apply to. -- Nikodemos 03:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Full Shunyata, can you provide quote from Henry Turner's book which says that there is no consensus agreement that Fascism is a type of collectivism? -- Vision Thing -- 13:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
There is enough content in this article that is unreferenced to warrent the {{ More sources}} tag. I have tagged those sections with {{ unreferencedsect}} and {{ fact}}.-- Sefringle 03:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
How can it be justified to classify Hegel - in one line with Marx - as early socialist? Pherrmann ( talk) 07:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This page discusses collectivism as a social and political philosophy. However, I've also heard it discussed in a psychological context, along with individualism. Specifically, these terms were used in discussion a person's or culture's concept of the self.
I took a university course on social psychology where collectivism and individualism were discussed when we covered a person's concept of the self. From what I recall, a predominantly individualist person would think of himself more in terms of his own attributes ("I am an engineer", "I like pie") while a predominantly collectivist person would think of himself more in terms of his relationships to others ("I am the son of Jason", "I live next door to Mark"). This idea motivated the discussion of the differences between cultures, where many European societies were described as individualist while many Asian societies were described as collectivist psychologically.
Anyone here who'd be able to give an insight on collectivism as it's defined and used in psychology? I'm not sure I'd be able to help much since psychology is not my major and I lost my class notes. :P 24.224.180.76 ( talk) 01:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
One only has to look to see that this is true. 20% of this article is made up of criticism of collectivism, while the other 80% try to link collectivism to fascism and Racism. Most of this seems to be due by those calling themselves individualist, as the “individualism” article has no criticism section. In fact it is nothing more then why individualism is good and groups that claim to be individualist. The problem is that there is no group that calls itself collectivist out there. You can clearly see this by trying to find one pro-collectivist site out, to even start to balance this article out. You will find none; in fact the only link here to a site called “in defense of collectivism” leads to a dead link. This is the reason why there are no external links, and also why the references section is full of links to not only pro Ayn Rand sits, but also to anti-collectivism sties. In fact all the links are to other Wikipedia pages, and the first link is to “Collective guilt”. The rest are there to link collectivism to fascism and Racism by saying that in these systems the individual must submitted to the state or race. But let’s look at this with a little logic. If being a collectivist means giving up things for the group, and group lines are draw by race, state, or other then by its own terms it can’t be raciest. If a group defines itself in term of race, then people of a different race can’t be asked to sacrifice for it, as they are not part of the same group. We can all agree that collectivism is the opposite of individualism, but the way we have it defined does not show this. We right now define collectivism as the “few sacrificing for the many”, but define individualism as “individual not sacrificing for anyone”, be them individual or groups. If we truly define them as opposite, then individualism would be “the many sacrificing for the few”. The funny thing is that this is the way we have it define, but it is not open. Individualism talks about the state getting out of the way of the individual, which means that the state submitted to the wish of the individual, as long as it does not come into conflict with the wish of other individual. This is the opposite of an individual submitting to the state, but is not clearly written out that way. Logic itself can prove that the very idea of individualism does in fact lead to the “the many sacrificing for the few”. Let’s say that an individual steals money from a state. The state is not an individual, which based on Individualism we can all agree on. So the government has no right to take back the money, as that individual did not steal for other individual, but form a state. Trying to link collectivism to fascism is other clear sign that this article is write to say “that everything bad has happened because of collectivism”. Let’s forget that fascism opposes democratic systems, just like individualist do, or the fact fascism focused on which individual are better than one other. In fact I could just as easily prove that Individualist are fascist. The United States has ruled in the past those corporations are individual, and Corporatism is the economic system of fascism. Therefore Corporatism = individualism as, Corporatism is for corporations and corporations are individual. There no point in trying to clean up this bias article the Individualist will just change it back or go around about way of saying that collectivism is everything wrong with the world, while saying that individualism is everything right. I would like to see someone prove me wrong, but the fact are there. There is no pro- collectivism site, book or sources to reference. I would like it if someone would go over to the “individualism” article and prove to me that there is some criticism of individualism, but I know no one will find any. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.149.139 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Recommend establishing a talk archive operated by a bot for this article. All is One ( talk) 23:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
In the sentence in the title of this section, the assertion that "most" anarchists embrace democracy is completely unsupported and I will change "most" to "some". It can be reverted if someone can provide reliable source, such a peer-reviewed statistical analysis of anarchists around the world, that shows that more than 50% of anarchists "embrace democracy". I conducted a search but could find no such source.
Speaking of reliable sources, the statement in the title of this section is referenced by this webpage: http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/sp001631.html
Spunk.org is an "online anarchist library and archive" owned by Spunk Press. The site is promotional in nature; according to the Wikipedia entry on Spunk Library, Spunk.org "was not intended to replace print publishing, but rather served a shop window promoting anarchist book publishers, newspapers and journals." Wikipedia maintains that "the identity of the author may help determine reliability", but the page referenced does not provide the author's name. So this source is unreliable on multiple counts.
The second source for this statement is "Anarcho-Syndicalism: Theory and Practice". Page 65, which is referenced as the source for this claim, has nothing to do with the statement made; the topic discussed on page 65 is Anarcho-Syndicalist workers of Spain, and democracy or horizontal collectivism is not even mentioned. Nor does it support the "most" anarchist claim I mentioned above.
Based on these factors, I believe the entire sentence should be stricken. The first source is unrelable, and the second source does not support the assertion. I believe this shows POV and bias on the part of the editor who wrote this part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.49.108 ( talk) 18:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Is corporatism a form of collectivism?
I reverted another users edit in which they asserted " corporativism definitely isn't a form of collectivism."
I wholeheartedly disagree, there is a clear relationship.
But I thought I should WP:Discuss the matter with other editors here.
-- Andrewaskew ( talk) 05:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
collectivists think group > individual. socialists want collective ownership of the means of production because socialization of production makes classical liberalism impossible. so, socialists may also be liberal individualists, and when they are are called anarchists; these ideas of collectivism and socialism are not connected in any meaningful way. i'm going to clean the article up appropriately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.43 ( talk) 12:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Ayn Rand and Ron Paul are referred to as "right-wing libertarians". I changed this to remove "right-wing" for a basis of neutrality (even though Rand did not categorize herself as a libertarian and was fairly critical of the libertarians), and it was reverted seemingly on the basis of an opinion. Point being, many commentators have said that Rand was not right-wing, citing her being in favor of abortion, and being an atheist, and it seems to me that the ones who consider Rand to be right-wing are usually critical of her. Her exact political views don't exactly fit the description "right-wing", except perhaps economically, if you consider favoring capitalism to be a right-wing position, which I do not. Libertarianism doesn't go hand-in-hand with right-wing politics, either, as libertarianism is usually a mix of being in favor of businessman's rights and social rights. -- WTF ( talk) 19:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
"Collectivism is discussed extensively by Objectivists." I took this out of the introduction, because it does not really belong there, if someone wants to add objectivist views of collectivism let it be so elsewhere; but simply stating that objectivism discusses it with no citations and no explanation is not informative. From my point of view obectivists elide collectivism and totalitarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.233.164 ( talk) 06:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinsic1 ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
How can USSR or the other stalinist states be described as "collectivist" when they were ruled by regimes and crime families unaccountable to and unalterable by the vast majority. These states could be better desrcribed as extreme individualist, sacrificing the rights of all individuals for the privileges of the concentrated few.
I'm having a real problem with the tail end of the first sentence in this article: "Collectivism is any philosophic, political, religious, economic, or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence of every human being." The interdependence of individuals may be a common reason for holding collectivist views, but it is not the best description of what collectivism is. It seems more direct and accurate to retreat to language of the Merriam-Webster definition discussed here previously, roughly: "...that emphasizes the importance of the collective and tends to analyze issues in those terms." I think the "every human being" wording could also be improved. Collectivism has no intrinsic scope; all collectivism is not about a universal collective. This just goes to show that interdependence is a red herring that is leading the description astray.
As well the list of possible outlook types is getting a bit long, accurate though it may be. I would prefer this for an initial sentence: "Collectivism is any system of thought that emphasizes groups—their identities, goals, rights, outcomes, etc.—over individuals."
I wasn't going to just drop in and alter the leading sentence without some notice though, so... hit me. Furball4 ( talk) 05:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Done. I ended up being influenced significantly by the Individualism page. Furball4 ( talk) 11:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The second sentence: " Collectivism is a basic cultural element that exists as the reverse of individualism (in the same way high context culture exists as the reverse of low context culture), and in some cases stresses the priority of group goals over individual goals and the importance of cohesion within social groups (such as an ingroup, in whichever specific context it is defined)." is rhetorical nonsense. What is "reverse" other then a vague and useless metaphor? Collectivism contradicts individualism by placing group decisions over individual authority. The essential nature of collectivism vs. individualism is that they are mutually exclusive, for any particular issue. We may have collective use of the earth, but still have individual control of our labors. With two different issues they can both apply, but not for a single issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.71.71.6 ( talk) 12:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
All organizations and especially states are necessarily collectivist to some extent. They prefer the existence and interest of the whole organisaton over some rights/interest an individual may have. Even a very liberal state subscribed to individual rights would have to do so. They may feign adherence, but in the end they would engage in "collectivist" action, when their interest/existence is at stake. -- 41.151.208.173 ( talk) 17:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Dr. Grigoriadis has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:
The analogy proposed by Greif (1994) distinguishes symmetrically between individualist economic systems and developed economies, on the one hand, and collectivist economic systems and developing economies, on the other. It suggests that cultural values matter for economic development and state capacity.
We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.
We believe Dr. Grigoriadis has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:
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@ Rupert loup You write: "Got rid of an oxymoron. You literally cannot mix individualist and collectivist ideologies, that made absolutely no sense. They are opposites by definition, you are either one or the other."
I just want to mention that this is not an accurate understanding of the relationship between collectivism and individualism. You can easily hold both collectivistic and individualistic world views. In fact, every measurement tool of individualism and collectivism reflects this. I would be happy to point you to numerous peer reviewed journal articles that demonstrate that the same people can endorse both collectivistic and individualistic cultural views simultaneously. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:27, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Respectfully, I feel that this section is very weak. Collectivism is a cultural value, so to have a section called "culture" doesn't entirely make sense, conceptually. I think it would be worthwhile to have a section that summarizes findings between the cultural value of collectivism and outcomes within the fields of clinical psychology, social psychology, perception, and neuroscience. The information currently on the page can also be condensed and more accurately re-written so that information about economics and organizational structure are also included. But as is, this section seems to present not entirely correct information in a way that is difficult to understand. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:09, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I also notice that the section I wrote on theoretical models was deleted and restored to information that again, is not accurate. For example the page currently reads "There are two types of collectivism..." It would be helpful to hear the rationale for why my content was deleted and replaced with the current content. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I am planning to make modifications to this page to improve the objectivity and focus of the topic. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 20:14, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Below please find some thoughts about changes I would like to make to each section:
-Lead section: Provide a more sophisticated and nuanced definition of the construct, as well as a comprehensive summary of the sections to follow -Typology: Renaming this section to better reflect the purpose of providing an overview of theories/models of collectivism; currently, this section only reflects one model of collectivism that is overly narrow -Culture: The title of this section is too broad and does not reflect the content. I would suggest moving the discussion of Hofstede’s work to a section that summarizes theoretical models of collectivism. -Collectivist anarchism: This section seems out of place and appears to be somewhat of a fringe movement. However, the way it is presented now makes it seem like this is a prominent application of this cultural variable, which is discordant with my experience. -Criticisms: These citations are primarily from the 1940’s or earlier and should be updated.
I also think this page should include discussion of relevant empirical findings involving collectivism, particularly in the fields of economics, perception, neuroscience, and psychology. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 01:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Czar I wrote a section about theoretical models of collectivism that cited books, meta-analyses, and peer reviewed empirical journal articles that are classics in the field and have been cited hundreds of times. I believe these qualify as being reliable sources, however, this section was deleted without discussion on the talk page. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 17:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Rupert loup I am curious why this deletion was reversed. There is already a standalone page for this topic and I feel like it gives too much priority to the movement. Would be helpful to hear your thoughts. Thank you. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 03:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Rupert loup It would be helpful to discuss your rationale for deleting several sections and restoring certain sections. Much of the restored content is incredibly outdated and not reflective of the empirical research that has been conducted regarding this construct. It would be disappointing to see this information getting widely circulated to the public. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Would this page be better off as a disambiguation page? It attempts to introduce different uses of the term "collectivism" but they are best covered in their respective articles. The only major area this might miss is something on "the relationship between individualism and collectivism", if that topic has a name. Otherwise, what sources are we using to justify "collectivism" as a separate topic than the specific kinds of applied collectivism? (See also Talk:Collectivism/Archive 3#Loaded term and the bibliography two sections below it.) czar 05:29, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The prose is currently written like an essay, not an encyclopedia article. If Masuda and Nisbett's study is important, you will be able to cite a secondary source that asserts the noteworthiness of their findings, but right now you're using it as a primary source about itself. Use sources secondary to the information given, ideally written by experts who write about the subject in summary for you to paraphrase.
Concepts such as "models of collectivism" and "self-concept" are introduced without any description or context, so it's unclear why they're event relevant to the topic. Remember that our articles are written for a general audience and that all jargon should be replaced or explained as if the reader knew nothing advanced about sociology or history.
All of my original points about the scope of this article pre-expansion remain. The article appears to be more about individualism and collectivism (their relation) rather than an ideologically separate concept of collectivism. You're welcome to prove otherwise with sources, but that requires reliable, secondary refs that say just that. It isn't enough to list several journal articles that address collectivism, but to use higher-level sources that cohere a narrative about those primary sources into a whole. czar 12:36, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there any historical interlinks between those two topics?
Excluding that enclosure tends to be more about agriculture ...
davronova.a. 00:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
In that sense, it is more of a polar opposite to individualism than the intro lets on. I think a simple outlying definition could help, before getting into the semantic details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.146.161.101 ( talk) 22:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
"Collectivism is often discussed alongside the cultural value of individualism, but these are two distinct concepts and are not considered to be opposites."
An interesting sentence, unfortunately devoid of any logic. I suggest deletion. NomenNominandum ( talk) 14:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
There at least could be a citation regarding that statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.146.161.101 ( talk) 22:46, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
"Collectivism is a value that is characterized by emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and prioritization of the group over the self."
Collectivists don't value the group over the self, they value the group over the individual. The difference is they disvalue both you placing greater worth on yourself than the group, and you placing greater worth on other individuals than the group. If Bob is in a collectivist group and proclaims that he values Sarah over the entire group, the group would ostracize him as he is no longer emphasizing group importance, even though he is not advocating for the worth of the self.
In the Individualism article the current definition, which I believe is much more accurate, reads "Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual." (I would also add "over the group" to the last bit, as you have plenty of collectivists who believe individuals have worth but that collective worth is far more important).
Can we change the first sentence to something like "Collectivism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the group over the individual?" Or at least change "self" to "individual" so the article is accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:702:4950:1D10:6621:B510:5577 ( talk) 05:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
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This Marxism-Leninism section is very messy and poorly written. The outlines of some good ideas are buried in there, but the poor order of the sentences and general weakness of the second half makes it so that someone who doesn't already know the contents would have a nearly impossible time understanding it. I probably shouldn't complain, as someone took the time to write it and I won't to rewrite it right now, but please, if anyone has time to improve this article, that is where I would ask for attention.
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As far as I can tell, collectivism is nothing but a pejorative term used by followers of Rand's objectionablism "Objectivism". Accordingly, the article should be reduced to a statement of that fact or removed altogether. This is no place for proselytising on behalf of Objectivism, which is all that this article does.
Shorne 16:29, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Agreed!
In response to Sam's request for help:
The reference section in this article, I am sorry to say, is absolutely pitiful. No personal offence to anyone, but I, for one, would be embarassed to submit a writing about issues of this magnitude with only an Encyclopedia (a Catholic one: Catholicism, also collectivism?) and the Dictionary attached!
There are so many unsubstantiated claims in this article, I don't even know where to begin. A central question to start with is whether persons (often generic) the article mentions as collectivists actually title themsleves as such. The article needs to -show- that it is well-reserached precisely due to the over-lapping, loaded nature of the term. So it is strange that the latter is qualified on several occasions, but then the article proceeds to making various unsubtantiated claims. One risk this article faces is with collectivism being used to encompass virtually any ideology that is not pronouncedly individualist and perhaps even explicitly 'anti-collectivist' — that is, as synonymous to cooperation (versus competition), social (versus individual), private (versus public), etc. It quickly becomes very muddled (i.e. autocracy or meritiocracy, for example). This article desprately needs to explain -whom- today uses the term and how it is viewed, especially by those alleged as being collectivists. Do they see themsleves as such? Irrespectively, how do 'they' approach the term? What about their critics? Et cetera, etc. These are question that need to be better addressed, and this means a substantive well-reserach and well-referenced exposition. El_C
Exactly. It is always difficult to tell serious editors that much of their writings is untenable, but at this point, this is the position I am leaning towards. The ideological juxtapositions this article makes are a product of treating the term collectivism as an epistemological category rather than a concept grounded in social, historical, cultural, etc. reality. Such juxtapositions cannot be the result of primary resreach, a prerequisite for these must be a scholarly account of, to start with, who employs the term: in politics, in academia and the social sciences, in literature and the arts, etc. Using an 'is not accepted by all' with respect to Corportism, Marxism, Meritocracy, etc. should most certainly not serve as a reason for not telling the reader who, for example, termed Meritocracy as collectivist, etc., and why. Names must be named, works must be cited. If not, then the etymological, philological, etc. uses of the term will have to do. Sorry. El_C
In responce to Mihnea's request for help:
Hmm...seems commie-ism tisn't the only page affected by this endless mind fuck. Okay, so what do we have here...? (First off, you guys need to sit back and talk about what gets included at all. That's just in general.)
Well, the first problem is that the opening paragraph tells me barely anything about what the article treads on. One can't define something by what it opposes. It seems too general as well. Something a tad more specific is needed.
Okay, moving on, we have Usage. Is it a perjorative term all the time? Is that only a western thing, or is it considered good among eastern Europeans? To socialists? To communists? Who really uses this term anymore?
Supporters and Detractors needs more. WAY more. We are given Chomsky and Rand, but this tells us nothing unless we know who they are. You CAN talk about them, you just need to define whom a detractor might be, and whom a supporter might be. Anarchist is too general. It's good to mention the other ideologies and kinds of supporters, but there's little good information here.
Theory: TELLS ME NOTHING! F MINUS!
Okay, with Politics, we're getting to the meat of it. Fascism is the first example...and yet up to this point we've been led to believe that this a purely leftist doctrine. Why wasn't this mentioned before? And, barring that, why have we been concerntrating on anarchists if this is true? Fascism needs a better definition as well: are we talking about Mussolini? Hitler? Pinochet? Franco? Give more direct examples.
Other wise pretty good. The last paragraph is okay, but it seems a little loaded. It could be put in a far more NPOV manner.
Economics: Pretty good. Needs a little expansion but otherwise fine.
Practice: And here, I assume, is where the problem is. This needs a hell of a lot more. Basically all there are are examples, which tells us little. One little place in Denmark does not collectivism make. You need to talk about Soviet collectivism a lot more...but don't even MENTION Stalin except as a reference. Maybe a little more, but leave the deaths thing alone. He killed people. He's a monster. He's an awful human being. HE'S NOT THE GOD OF COLLECTIVISM. HIS BRAND JUST HAPPENED TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE (I would argue that alone makes it not collectivism, but I'm not debating here...but I'm not treying to undermine the magnitude of Stalin's murders. I'm just making a point 'bout neutrality.)! Anywho, get over it. You can say it lead to deaths, but don't politicize it...He's too much of a bastard not to provoke something, you see.
Anti-collectivism: First sentence is AWFUL. Lots of interesting stuff but it seems to be a bit helter skelter with what the direction is supposed to be. It needs to be more concise. It needs to have a fairly smooth transition quality.
My verdict: forget about arguing about the politics of it, whether it works or not, whether Stalin killed every person in Russia and Europe with it, and learn to write. Certain sections are so woefully lacking, it's laughable. Others are so jumpy, it's embarassing. And some...blech. The article is entirely uninformative. You need to put all the politcs aside, and just start over. Don't talk about the deaths until you feel it warrants it. Or, make a page abot the results of Stalin's "collectivism". And what about Pol Pot? didn't he pull that crap and try to call it collectivism?
I categorically refuse to become involved in terms of philosphical debate. It's too moronic (on both sides).
And linking to the Catholic Encyclopedia? It's so dreadfully NPOV I almost threw up. Consider their articles on communism and socialism. COME ON. Find a better link.
But hey, happy Halloween.
PS: Shorne: just read your above statement. I entirely disagree. "Collectivism" was used before Rand, and I know it's used positively in some circles (even if it may or may not have begun negatively). [Was used positively in the First International shortly after the Anarchists were expelled El_C ] It's the term that we use to describe "this stuff" (whatever that is...which is one of the biggest problems with this article). It needs a place in the encyclopedia.
PPS: You know what you guys should try? Conservatives (American Libertarians, whatever) think like leftists. Think like dirty pinko commies. It gives one more perspective. Liberals (Social Democrats, socialists, communists, whatever) think like rightests. Think like dirty poor people bashing tories. It gives one more perspective. It also lets you guys see the other side of the argument. User:Yossarian (sig added by Sam [ Spade] 01:43, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC))
Devil advocacy (almost perfect timing for that pun) aside, we cannot speak about politics, theory, supporters-detractors, etc., with the question of who really uses this term anymore? being left unanswered. So, for that reason alone, I disagree with the remainder of Yossarian's approach. It seems too hasty at this point to be building the roof without knowing where the foundation is layed, if at all. El_C
I sort of realize that now...but I think most of my points are valid once the definition of the article is defined.
I'm pleased to learn you do. Many of your points could become valid, yes, when and/or if these defintions are established. I am of the opinion though that many could not be defined as some here intend since they likely will be proven to be incorrect defintions for the term (but I am, of course, far from infallible, we'll see).
I think the problem is that this is getting a bit too intellectual
I think it is more precise to say too abstract, methodologically inconsistent, and disjointed. This article, though, is very much in need of intellectual clarity, which I think -is- actually what you meant.
[T]hink about who reads this article (other than hard core wikipedians). What does the basic highschool/college student/casual observer think of when someone says "collectivism". You don't want to confuse the readership..
Absolutely true. At the same time, one has to be intellectually honest with the reader — this is esepcailly pressing with respects to the uses of the term throughout history, and just as significantly, to what extent (and when). And, obviously, contemporization (in various areas, as one can clearly see from the more recently published non-historical works I cited) must be firmly established.
The article as it is is far too rambling to be any use. And the theory section (which is one of the most important for anyone reading up on this) is disgraceful.
Indeed. As for the theory, as Shorne mentioned (and I tend to agree), nothing unified of the sort (has been proven to) exist today — at least not in any appreciable sense that I know of (again, for this divergence, see sources I cited).
Theory: could it be there needs to be a distinction of two articles: one concerning collectivism as a theory of society (Marx?), and one as a practice (communist collectivism, Lenin, Stalin, etc.) Anyway, my point is, one needs to think of what the GENERAL definition of this is. Otherwise, it becomes confusing and misleads a lot of people.
Again, I think you are being to hasty to jump the gun here. If the use of the term was as 'limited' as I suspect it was amongst Marxist(-Leninists), then it would be inappropriate to go on at length (seemingly, invariably in 'primary' writing style) as to these. More pertinent articles already exist. We avoid catch-22s by qualifying their carch-22 characteristics — likewise, in the case that this aforementioned 'limitation' proves true, we avoid confusion precisely through an explanation of this 'limitation.' As stated, central to this is a self-proclaimed affiliation with the term (or lack thereof, or irrespectively, its relevancy/prevelance), and how. El_C
The problem is, I don't know a heck of a lot about collectivism (whatever we define it is). My grievence with the article is the lack of readablity ... I was thinking more like an English teacher looking for a coherent content.
Fair enough, that's pivotal for the article, too. I, however, was thinking more like an historian and a social theorist — to reiterate my main point on this front though, the latter always needs to preced the former (we can always copyedit grammar and logical coherence, even expand on substance, but in order to do all encyclopedicly, this this substance needs to exist, to be made explicable a priori; meaning, needs to be appreciable enough as per the given use/emphasis accorded ). El_C
I still firmly believe that the present article is largely untenable. Please do not merely cite (copy & paste) these sources unless the article undergoes the (dramatic) changes recommended by myself and Shorne (a request only). El_C
I don't know what happened, but we had a few talk page errors. Please be careful, and clean up any duplication. Thanx. Sam [ Spade] 14:47, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
When I visited a good friend of mine in VA for a week during the spring (a friend, who, btw, holds a strong affinity to the various firearms he owns – we had a good time at the firing range!), he gave me that book to read. I confess to not having finished it. The book seems to sway between the anectodal and sensetional melodramatics on the one hand, and the tedius on the other, but it does provide some important insights into the policies. At the same time, much of the data and analyses of which appears to be highly distorted, possibly even intellectually dishonest — I have read several articles which I thought demonstrated this quite convincingly (though it is somewhat of an unfair statement on my part as I have yet to finish reading the book). All that said, I am actually very much in favour of having a firearm in every American household. Try to guess why, I believe you will be pleasently unsurprised! (well, maybe not so much pleasently :p ). El_C
I'd prefer to see them in harmony :) What I have learned most from this article and talk page is that Collectivism is poorly defined. Maybe we should just put it on VfD ;) Sam [ Spade] 16:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, harmony, we're all for that, I'm sure! But first, the foundation, then the painting, roofing, cat-door, etc. :) I think an article on Collectivism should exist, but certainly not in its current form. If you submitt a VfD, I will fully support you in this — even once deleted, it isn't 'really' deleted, we can always turn to whatever grains of truth exist in the original for use in a forthcoming rewrite. El_C
Here here. -- Yossarian 00:27, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)
Now that you've all seen and discussed Sam's version of this article, please see the version that I am trying to defend: [1]
You will find that it answers many of your concerns, and, though it is not perfect, it is at least better than the alternative. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The introduction exhibits great promise, but much of the rest is highly problematic. I hope that I get a chance to provide you with a more extensive response soon.
Best regards,
Hello, I would just like to add my own thoughts here.
First, I thought this article was a good one on Collectivism, even if somewhat short and not very in-depth. I did not think it was a plug for Ayn Rand's philosophy. I think the article was simply reporting the fact that one often finds this term used often by Rand, her followers and others who subscribe to right-libertarian political philosophies to describe the philosophies they are opposed to. The term “collectivism” is a common term used in political science and sociology and is to be found in various dictionaries or encyclopedia on political science and political philosophy.
Second, there was, and I think there still is, a group of left-anarchists who called themselves Collectivists, a term that was used by anarchist thinkers Mikhail Bakunin and James Guillaume. This was a good term to describe their preferred economic system of ownership of the means of production by collectives of workers associations. This system was contrasted to Marx's idea of collectivising production by concentrating it all in the hands of a proletarian state. There are Anarcho-Collectivists, along with their close relatives Anarcho-Communists and Anarcho-Syndicalists, who have claimed that while their system advocates economic collectivism, it promotes individualism as regards social relations. Some like Peter Kropotkin, one of the foremost Anarcho-Communist thinkers, have even argued that a system like anarchist communism offers advantages that best sustains individuality. Critics of these positions have argued that economic collectivisation tends to lead towards social/political collectivisation. These critics, like the Anarcho-Individualists, Anarcho-Mutualists and Anarcho-Capitalists, would argue that social/political individualism is best supported by economic individualism.
Third, the article has only given examples of economic collectivist societies. While the article gives a quote by Mussolini, I thought the article would have been much better had it given racism, Nazism, Fascism, Stalinism, militant nationalism and religious fundamentalism as examples of overtly politically/socially collectivist ideologies and/or societies.
Kubilay Ertuna
You deleted some stuff out of the intro believing it was POV. Here is a definition of collectivism from Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary ...
And this is from Encyclopedia Britannica...
It doesn't look to me like it was POV but goes along with this understanding. RJII 14:08, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Do any of you really know what true collectivism is? == == ==
--Phalus
This article is pretty bad. Let's fix it, by replacing it with sourceable material. Right now it looks like editors are just making up stuff off the top of their heads. I'm putting in a new intro. My sources for this are the Merriam-Webster Unabridged Dictionary and Encyclopedia Britannica. RJII 05:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Merriam-Webster: "1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members 2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior -- see HOLISM"
Encyclopedia Britannica: "any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class. Collectivism may be contrasted with individualism (q.v.), in which the rights and interests of the individual are emphasized."
I plan on deleting the following unless sources are provided:
RJII 02:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm mostly looking at this article from the standpoint of issues regarding anarchism. I'm really not comfortable with how this term is being defined, particularly in comparison to individualism. This page suggests that collectivism is almost in direct opposition to individualism, even aggressive against individual freedom. I don't think many or any so-called collectivist anarchists oppose the liberty of the individual. Mikhail Bakunin, (who, according to anarchism, espoused collectivism) once said that "Where the state begins, individual liberty ceases, and vice versa." L. Susan Brown argues that all anarchists are individualist, but divides individualism between instrumental individualism and existential individualism. The difference, she argues, is only that instrumental individualists believe in the freedom of people to accomplish things and compete (ala liberalism), whereas existential individualists sees that freedom as an end in itself (ala anarchist communism). My point being that this page needs to note collectivism's relation to individualism, because it remains unclear (although is certainly not always as hostile as this article seems to suggest). Sarge Baldy 20:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Seeing that a number of people have had problems with the EB definition, I don't know why we'd use it, just because it's "sourced". It doesn't say anything this academic source doesn't say, except it says it in a very negative way. Where the source I'm using says that collectivists put group goals over individual goals, the EB source puts it as collectivism "subordinating" individuals. They mean the same thing, it's just one isn't loaded. We don't define individualism as a philosophy whereby individuals "subordinate" the larger group, because that would be completely biased. Instead, you'd say it's a philosophy where individual goals are placed above group goals. The EB article essentially seems to be describing vertical collectivism while utterly neglecting horizontal. Sarge Baldy 19:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
What is this supposed to mean: "Collectivists oppose individualism and its focus on individual autonomy and will, arguing that it is impossible to free oneself from the influence of society without becoming a hermit"???? Individualists do NOT want to free themselves from the influence of society. They simply want to be free from being the victims of force used against them by others in society. They simply want to be treated as ends in themselves (to use Kant's words) instead of as mere means to the ends of others to be forced around by society. In other words they simply want to interact with others in society on a peaceful voluntary basis. To claim that they want to be free from the "influence" of society is preposterous. That is not what individualism is about. It has nothing to do with being a "hermit". Individualists WANT to interact with others in a society. It's about the METHOD of interaction, either peaceful or by force.
Avner Greif, a very prominent figure in economics, economic history, and game theory these days, uses the term "collectivism" to mean a set of cultural beliefs that "support an economic self-enforcing collective punishment, horizontal agency relations, segregation, and an ingroup social communications network." See his contribution to an anthology, "The Frontiers of the New Institutional Economics" ( 1997) for the context. I don't know how that source intersects with the partisan splits I see on this talk page. Orthogonally, I'd hope. -- Christofurio 02:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Note to -- Vision Thing --. It is considered very bad form to revert a page and then in the subject line to imply that it is the result of a consensus on the discussion page. As you are well aware, there is no such consensus. The claim is false. Please refrain from this sort of aggressive and discourteous editing. The discussion should continue without a revert war. -- Cberlet 13:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Present intro excludes mainstream definition and includes following part: "Collectivism is often based on a view of human beings as "social animals", who need the companionship and support of others of their kind in order to survive and thrive. Collectivists oppose individualism and its focus on individual autonomy and will, arguing that it is impossible to free oneself from the influence of society without becoming a hermit. Collectivists believe that society shapes many aspects of an individual's personality, and that individualistic attempts to separate individuals from society and from each other can be psychologically or even physically harmful." which implies that individualist don’t believe that they need other people to survive and thrive, and that they want to separate from society. That’s simply wrong and biased. Because my attempts to make intro neutral are constantly reverted I’m putting POV tag on. -- Vision Thing -- 09:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if there are any individuals or groups that call themselves "collectivist" in the present day. I have certainly seen legions of self-proclaimed anti-collectivists, but no self-proclaimed collectivists. If the term is used exclusively (or overwhelmingly) by anti-collectivists, we should mark it as a pejorative. -- Nikodemos 18:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Other than the article provided above by Christofurio, I have never seen any piece of writing that supports something called "collectivism". It seems that the term "collectivism" is used overwhelmingly by those people who oppose what they see as "collectivism". -- Nikodemos 14:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia must do more than just quote from other encyclopedias - or worse, dictionaries. We must also strive to present information in a NPOV manner. "Subordination" is POV - but I'll accept it as long as we make it clear that it's what Britannica says, not the Absolute Truth. -- Nikodemos 19:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the Merriam-Webster definition of collectivism can be found here, and it does not correspond with the text quoted by IndividualistAnarchist. -- Nikodemos 19:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
That is the abridged dictionary. The authoritative dictionary, The Merriam-Webster Third International Dictionary, Unabridged entry is this:
1 a : a politico-economic system characterized by collective control especially over production and distribution of goods and services in contrast to free enterprise <forces that have led to individualism have in the last fifty years been successfully opposed by the forces of collectivism -- M.R.Cohen> b : extreme control of the economic, political, and social life of its subjects by an authoritarian state (as under communism or fascism) c : a doctrine or system that makes the group or the state actively responsible for the social and economic welfare of its members 2 : a social theory or doctrine that emphasizes the importance of the collective (as the society or state) in contrast to the individual and that tends to analyze society in terms of collective behavior -- see HOLISM 3 : 2COLLECTIVE 2, 3
TheIndividualist 00:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
<------This is a serious encyclopedia, not an out of date abridged dictionary. Get serious. Cite a serious scholar.-- Cberlet 02:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you wish to add that unabridged definition to the intro, TheIndividualist? I would not remove it, of course, but I would ensist that the definition is provided in its entirety, and then I would go look for different definitions in different dictionaries. I think this is a bad idea, because it would turn our introduction into little more than a collection of dictionary definitions (some of which describe the same concept and some of which don't).
I think the intro as it stands now is perfectly acceptable. Do you agree? If yes, we should remove the POV tag. -- Nikodemos 15:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I removed the dictionary definitions from the introduction. The introduction, after all, is intended to be an overview of the content of the article; in this case, the very first section of the article notes that there is no universally-agreed upon definition of collectivism. Therefore, presenting a dictionary definition in the intro as if it was the commonly-accepted definition of collectivism is inappropriate. Few encyclopedia articles rely on a dictionary definition, and this case, in particular, seems like a poor place to start. I think that, instead, it might make sense to have at least a mention of anti-collectivism in the intro, since the term would seem to be, in the modern world, used most often by groups that define themselves in opposition to it. -- Aquillion 08:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
would vertical collectivism not just be totalitarianism instead of collectivism? sounds so to me, reading this article. or else totalism, too much of those words anyway-- Lygophile 07:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The Triandis article explicitly talks about fascism as Vertical Collectivism om page 119 [4]. Intangible 20:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
My apologies for not discussing here sooner. There is clearly no consensus on whether or not Fascist societies were individualist or collectivist. Quite honestly they incorporated elements of both but arguably were aimed at empowering powerful individuals. They remained firm in their support of Social Darwinism which is a form of vertical individualism that views collective concern as unreasonable. I simply edited the article to point out a more clear example of vertical collectivism which is Marxist-Leninist societies. Whether or not Fascist societies were collectivist is debatable as many Capitalist societies have strong elements of collectivism as well. No society is purely anything and it doesn't have to be. Full Shunyata 12:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
There are other sources than the scholar I quoted. The German militarist, Friederich von Bernhardi, praised the virtues of Darwinian war in strong evolutionary terms in his influential book Germany and the Next War. Bernhardi claimed war was a "biological necessity" and that it "gives a biologically just decision, since its decisions rest on the very nature of things." Bernhardi dismissed the idea of peaceful cooperation as a "presumptuous encroachment on the natural laws of development." and said "war is a universal law of nature." (As quoted by Ashley Montagu in Man in Process, World Pub. Co., 1961, pp. 76-77). If you want, we can edit this article together to include both views. Full Shunyata 12:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, "vertical collectivism" is a term coined by Triandis. Obviously you won't find anyone who contradicts his findings on VC, because no one else uses the term. So you must look at the definition of VC and see if it is consistent with the findings of other researchers on the subject of fascism. In any case, it seems that far too much time and effort has been spent on trying to figure out what societies are or aren't VC, when you should have written a more detailed description of the two kinds of collectivism and left the readers to decide what societies they apply to. -- Nikodemos 03:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Full Shunyata, can you provide quote from Henry Turner's book which says that there is no consensus agreement that Fascism is a type of collectivism? -- Vision Thing -- 13:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
There is enough content in this article that is unreferenced to warrent the {{ More sources}} tag. I have tagged those sections with {{ unreferencedsect}} and {{ fact}}.-- Sefringle 03:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
How can it be justified to classify Hegel - in one line with Marx - as early socialist? Pherrmann ( talk) 07:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This page discusses collectivism as a social and political philosophy. However, I've also heard it discussed in a psychological context, along with individualism. Specifically, these terms were used in discussion a person's or culture's concept of the self.
I took a university course on social psychology where collectivism and individualism were discussed when we covered a person's concept of the self. From what I recall, a predominantly individualist person would think of himself more in terms of his own attributes ("I am an engineer", "I like pie") while a predominantly collectivist person would think of himself more in terms of his relationships to others ("I am the son of Jason", "I live next door to Mark"). This idea motivated the discussion of the differences between cultures, where many European societies were described as individualist while many Asian societies were described as collectivist psychologically.
Anyone here who'd be able to give an insight on collectivism as it's defined and used in psychology? I'm not sure I'd be able to help much since psychology is not my major and I lost my class notes. :P 24.224.180.76 ( talk) 01:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
One only has to look to see that this is true. 20% of this article is made up of criticism of collectivism, while the other 80% try to link collectivism to fascism and Racism. Most of this seems to be due by those calling themselves individualist, as the “individualism” article has no criticism section. In fact it is nothing more then why individualism is good and groups that claim to be individualist. The problem is that there is no group that calls itself collectivist out there. You can clearly see this by trying to find one pro-collectivist site out, to even start to balance this article out. You will find none; in fact the only link here to a site called “in defense of collectivism” leads to a dead link. This is the reason why there are no external links, and also why the references section is full of links to not only pro Ayn Rand sits, but also to anti-collectivism sties. In fact all the links are to other Wikipedia pages, and the first link is to “Collective guilt”. The rest are there to link collectivism to fascism and Racism by saying that in these systems the individual must submitted to the state or race. But let’s look at this with a little logic. If being a collectivist means giving up things for the group, and group lines are draw by race, state, or other then by its own terms it can’t be raciest. If a group defines itself in term of race, then people of a different race can’t be asked to sacrifice for it, as they are not part of the same group. We can all agree that collectivism is the opposite of individualism, but the way we have it defined does not show this. We right now define collectivism as the “few sacrificing for the many”, but define individualism as “individual not sacrificing for anyone”, be them individual or groups. If we truly define them as opposite, then individualism would be “the many sacrificing for the few”. The funny thing is that this is the way we have it define, but it is not open. Individualism talks about the state getting out of the way of the individual, which means that the state submitted to the wish of the individual, as long as it does not come into conflict with the wish of other individual. This is the opposite of an individual submitting to the state, but is not clearly written out that way. Logic itself can prove that the very idea of individualism does in fact lead to the “the many sacrificing for the few”. Let’s say that an individual steals money from a state. The state is not an individual, which based on Individualism we can all agree on. So the government has no right to take back the money, as that individual did not steal for other individual, but form a state. Trying to link collectivism to fascism is other clear sign that this article is write to say “that everything bad has happened because of collectivism”. Let’s forget that fascism opposes democratic systems, just like individualist do, or the fact fascism focused on which individual are better than one other. In fact I could just as easily prove that Individualist are fascist. The United States has ruled in the past those corporations are individual, and Corporatism is the economic system of fascism. Therefore Corporatism = individualism as, Corporatism is for corporations and corporations are individual. There no point in trying to clean up this bias article the Individualist will just change it back or go around about way of saying that collectivism is everything wrong with the world, while saying that individualism is everything right. I would like to see someone prove me wrong, but the fact are there. There is no pro- collectivism site, book or sources to reference. I would like it if someone would go over to the “individualism” article and prove to me that there is some criticism of individualism, but I know no one will find any. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.25.149.139 ( talk) 14:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Recommend establishing a talk archive operated by a bot for this article. All is One ( talk) 23:47, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
In the sentence in the title of this section, the assertion that "most" anarchists embrace democracy is completely unsupported and I will change "most" to "some". It can be reverted if someone can provide reliable source, such a peer-reviewed statistical analysis of anarchists around the world, that shows that more than 50% of anarchists "embrace democracy". I conducted a search but could find no such source.
Speaking of reliable sources, the statement in the title of this section is referenced by this webpage: http://www.spunk.org/texts/intro/sp001631.html
Spunk.org is an "online anarchist library and archive" owned by Spunk Press. The site is promotional in nature; according to the Wikipedia entry on Spunk Library, Spunk.org "was not intended to replace print publishing, but rather served a shop window promoting anarchist book publishers, newspapers and journals." Wikipedia maintains that "the identity of the author may help determine reliability", but the page referenced does not provide the author's name. So this source is unreliable on multiple counts.
The second source for this statement is "Anarcho-Syndicalism: Theory and Practice". Page 65, which is referenced as the source for this claim, has nothing to do with the statement made; the topic discussed on page 65 is Anarcho-Syndicalist workers of Spain, and democracy or horizontal collectivism is not even mentioned. Nor does it support the "most" anarchist claim I mentioned above.
Based on these factors, I believe the entire sentence should be stricken. The first source is unrelable, and the second source does not support the assertion. I believe this shows POV and bias on the part of the editor who wrote this part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.49.108 ( talk) 18:15, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Is corporatism a form of collectivism?
I reverted another users edit in which they asserted " corporativism definitely isn't a form of collectivism."
I wholeheartedly disagree, there is a clear relationship.
But I thought I should WP:Discuss the matter with other editors here.
-- Andrewaskew ( talk) 05:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
collectivists think group > individual. socialists want collective ownership of the means of production because socialization of production makes classical liberalism impossible. so, socialists may also be liberal individualists, and when they are are called anarchists; these ideas of collectivism and socialism are not connected in any meaningful way. i'm going to clean the article up appropriately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.24.43 ( talk) 12:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Ayn Rand and Ron Paul are referred to as "right-wing libertarians". I changed this to remove "right-wing" for a basis of neutrality (even though Rand did not categorize herself as a libertarian and was fairly critical of the libertarians), and it was reverted seemingly on the basis of an opinion. Point being, many commentators have said that Rand was not right-wing, citing her being in favor of abortion, and being an atheist, and it seems to me that the ones who consider Rand to be right-wing are usually critical of her. Her exact political views don't exactly fit the description "right-wing", except perhaps economically, if you consider favoring capitalism to be a right-wing position, which I do not. Libertarianism doesn't go hand-in-hand with right-wing politics, either, as libertarianism is usually a mix of being in favor of businessman's rights and social rights. -- WTF ( talk) 19:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
"Collectivism is discussed extensively by Objectivists." I took this out of the introduction, because it does not really belong there, if someone wants to add objectivist views of collectivism let it be so elsewhere; but simply stating that objectivism discusses it with no citations and no explanation is not informative. From my point of view obectivists elide collectivism and totalitarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.233.164 ( talk) 06:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinsic1 ( talk • contribs) 12:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
How can USSR or the other stalinist states be described as "collectivist" when they were ruled by regimes and crime families unaccountable to and unalterable by the vast majority. These states could be better desrcribed as extreme individualist, sacrificing the rights of all individuals for the privileges of the concentrated few.
I'm having a real problem with the tail end of the first sentence in this article: "Collectivism is any philosophic, political, religious, economic, or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence of every human being." The interdependence of individuals may be a common reason for holding collectivist views, but it is not the best description of what collectivism is. It seems more direct and accurate to retreat to language of the Merriam-Webster definition discussed here previously, roughly: "...that emphasizes the importance of the collective and tends to analyze issues in those terms." I think the "every human being" wording could also be improved. Collectivism has no intrinsic scope; all collectivism is not about a universal collective. This just goes to show that interdependence is a red herring that is leading the description astray.
As well the list of possible outlook types is getting a bit long, accurate though it may be. I would prefer this for an initial sentence: "Collectivism is any system of thought that emphasizes groups—their identities, goals, rights, outcomes, etc.—over individuals."
I wasn't going to just drop in and alter the leading sentence without some notice though, so... hit me. Furball4 ( talk) 05:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Done. I ended up being influenced significantly by the Individualism page. Furball4 ( talk) 11:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The second sentence: " Collectivism is a basic cultural element that exists as the reverse of individualism (in the same way high context culture exists as the reverse of low context culture), and in some cases stresses the priority of group goals over individual goals and the importance of cohesion within social groups (such as an ingroup, in whichever specific context it is defined)." is rhetorical nonsense. What is "reverse" other then a vague and useless metaphor? Collectivism contradicts individualism by placing group decisions over individual authority. The essential nature of collectivism vs. individualism is that they are mutually exclusive, for any particular issue. We may have collective use of the earth, but still have individual control of our labors. With two different issues they can both apply, but not for a single issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.71.71.6 ( talk) 12:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
All organizations and especially states are necessarily collectivist to some extent. They prefer the existence and interest of the whole organisaton over some rights/interest an individual may have. Even a very liberal state subscribed to individual rights would have to do so. They may feign adherence, but in the end they would engage in "collectivist" action, when their interest/existence is at stake. -- 41.151.208.173 ( talk) 17:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Dr. Grigoriadis has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:
The analogy proposed by Greif (1994) distinguishes symmetrically between individualist economic systems and developed economies, on the one hand, and collectivist economic systems and developing economies, on the other. It suggests that cultural values matter for economic development and state capacity.
We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.
We believe Dr. Grigoriadis has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:
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@ Rupert loup You write: "Got rid of an oxymoron. You literally cannot mix individualist and collectivist ideologies, that made absolutely no sense. They are opposites by definition, you are either one or the other."
I just want to mention that this is not an accurate understanding of the relationship between collectivism and individualism. You can easily hold both collectivistic and individualistic world views. In fact, every measurement tool of individualism and collectivism reflects this. I would be happy to point you to numerous peer reviewed journal articles that demonstrate that the same people can endorse both collectivistic and individualistic cultural views simultaneously. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:27, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Respectfully, I feel that this section is very weak. Collectivism is a cultural value, so to have a section called "culture" doesn't entirely make sense, conceptually. I think it would be worthwhile to have a section that summarizes findings between the cultural value of collectivism and outcomes within the fields of clinical psychology, social psychology, perception, and neuroscience. The information currently on the page can also be condensed and more accurately re-written so that information about economics and organizational structure are also included. But as is, this section seems to present not entirely correct information in a way that is difficult to understand. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:09, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I also notice that the section I wrote on theoretical models was deleted and restored to information that again, is not accurate. For example the page currently reads "There are two types of collectivism..." It would be helpful to hear the rationale for why my content was deleted and replaced with the current content. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Hello, I am planning to make modifications to this page to improve the objectivity and focus of the topic. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 20:14, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Below please find some thoughts about changes I would like to make to each section:
-Lead section: Provide a more sophisticated and nuanced definition of the construct, as well as a comprehensive summary of the sections to follow -Typology: Renaming this section to better reflect the purpose of providing an overview of theories/models of collectivism; currently, this section only reflects one model of collectivism that is overly narrow -Culture: The title of this section is too broad and does not reflect the content. I would suggest moving the discussion of Hofstede’s work to a section that summarizes theoretical models of collectivism. -Collectivist anarchism: This section seems out of place and appears to be somewhat of a fringe movement. However, the way it is presented now makes it seem like this is a prominent application of this cultural variable, which is discordant with my experience. -Criticisms: These citations are primarily from the 1940’s or earlier and should be updated.
I also think this page should include discussion of relevant empirical findings involving collectivism, particularly in the fields of economics, perception, neuroscience, and psychology. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 01:24, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Czar I wrote a section about theoretical models of collectivism that cited books, meta-analyses, and peer reviewed empirical journal articles that are classics in the field and have been cited hundreds of times. I believe these qualify as being reliable sources, however, this section was deleted without discussion on the talk page. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 17:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
@ Rupert loup I am curious why this deletion was reversed. There is already a standalone page for this topic and I feel like it gives too much priority to the movement. Would be helpful to hear your thoughts. Thank you. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 03:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Rupert loup It would be helpful to discuss your rationale for deleting several sections and restoring certain sections. Much of the restored content is incredibly outdated and not reflective of the empirical research that has been conducted regarding this construct. It would be disappointing to see this information getting widely circulated to the public. PsychstudentUCLA ( talk) 16:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Would this page be better off as a disambiguation page? It attempts to introduce different uses of the term "collectivism" but they are best covered in their respective articles. The only major area this might miss is something on "the relationship between individualism and collectivism", if that topic has a name. Otherwise, what sources are we using to justify "collectivism" as a separate topic than the specific kinds of applied collectivism? (See also Talk:Collectivism/Archive 3#Loaded term and the bibliography two sections below it.) czar 05:29, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The prose is currently written like an essay, not an encyclopedia article. If Masuda and Nisbett's study is important, you will be able to cite a secondary source that asserts the noteworthiness of their findings, but right now you're using it as a primary source about itself. Use sources secondary to the information given, ideally written by experts who write about the subject in summary for you to paraphrase.
Concepts such as "models of collectivism" and "self-concept" are introduced without any description or context, so it's unclear why they're event relevant to the topic. Remember that our articles are written for a general audience and that all jargon should be replaced or explained as if the reader knew nothing advanced about sociology or history.
All of my original points about the scope of this article pre-expansion remain. The article appears to be more about individualism and collectivism (their relation) rather than an ideologically separate concept of collectivism. You're welcome to prove otherwise with sources, but that requires reliable, secondary refs that say just that. It isn't enough to list several journal articles that address collectivism, but to use higher-level sources that cohere a narrative about those primary sources into a whole. czar 12:36, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
Is there any historical interlinks between those two topics?
Excluding that enclosure tends to be more about agriculture ...
davronova.a. 00:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
In that sense, it is more of a polar opposite to individualism than the intro lets on. I think a simple outlying definition could help, before getting into the semantic details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.146.161.101 ( talk) 22:45, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
"Collectivism is often discussed alongside the cultural value of individualism, but these are two distinct concepts and are not considered to be opposites."
An interesting sentence, unfortunately devoid of any logic. I suggest deletion. NomenNominandum ( talk) 14:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
There at least could be a citation regarding that statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.146.161.101 ( talk) 22:46, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
"Collectivism is a value that is characterized by emphasis on cohesiveness among individuals and prioritization of the group over the self."
Collectivists don't value the group over the self, they value the group over the individual. The difference is they disvalue both you placing greater worth on yourself than the group, and you placing greater worth on other individuals than the group. If Bob is in a collectivist group and proclaims that he values Sarah over the entire group, the group would ostracize him as he is no longer emphasizing group importance, even though he is not advocating for the worth of the self.
In the Individualism article the current definition, which I believe is much more accurate, reads "Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual." (I would also add "over the group" to the last bit, as you have plenty of collectivists who believe individuals have worth but that collective worth is far more important).
Can we change the first sentence to something like "Collectivism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology and social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the group over the individual?" Or at least change "self" to "individual" so the article is accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:702:4950:1D10:6621:B510:5577 ( talk) 05:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
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RMM72.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:01, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This Marxism-Leninism section is very messy and poorly written. The outlines of some good ideas are buried in there, but the poor order of the sentences and general weakness of the second half makes it so that someone who doesn't already know the contents would have a nearly impossible time understanding it. I probably shouldn't complain, as someone took the time to write it and I won't to rewrite it right now, but please, if anyone has time to improve this article, that is where I would ask for attention.