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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Outside the sphere of collaboration with the German occupiers, a small minority of Poles murdered Jews during the Holocaust, while some Poles - considered traitors by the
Polish state - participated in German-inspired pogroms and informed on and even blackmailed Jews and their Polish protectors. Collaboration by Poland's German and Ukrainian minorities was widespread.
Is it a small minority?
This appears to be a rhetorical question, so you need to do the math. Even if ten separate Poles were to have murdered each one of these 40,000 Jews, then 400,000 Poles were involved: that's 400,000 / 24,300,000 1939 population of ethnic Poles = 0.0016% of all ethnic Poles. Even that is a small minority. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 16:50, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E-960: Regarding your string of reverts from today, before we go over them one by one let's just make this clear: The article was last restructured several months ago, when it was still just a section under "Collaboration with the Axis powers". At the state of the article today this structure in inadequate. The sections have no clear criteria, alternating between field (eg. "politics"), case ("Baudienst") and identity ("ethnic minorities), and in some cases mix disparate subjects (eg. early state-level arrangements and later party-level suggestions).
The edits:
François Robere ( talk) 20:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I see no rationale to change those titles which were applicable to the corresponding text- I gave you a rational.
the fact that the POLISH STATE never collaborated with the Germans- does the text imply anything else? No. The sections are supposed to follow a certain order; I expect other articles of this sort would follow a similar structure: "what did the state do", "how did the politicia react", "to what degree did the security services cooperate with the regime of terror" etc. This is an "inventory" of sorts, which in this case would list under "State collaboration" " N/A" (cf. "collaboration and the resistance" that elaborates on both collaboration and defiance). If that'll sooth your worries, we can rename the section "State defiance" or "State noncollaboration"; at any rate I'm of the opinion that section should be split in two.
As for the other items on your list, there is nothing wrong with them- can you explain exactly what's not wrong for each of the cases? François Robere ( talk) 15:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Any time an editors just comes in and changes half of the long standing section titles, that raises a red flagso that's a free license to "shoot first, ask questions later"?
it appears that you simply lack a full in-depth understanding on certain topics, as demonstrated when you moved the text on Gorals and Kaszubs to the Collaboration by ethnic minorities section, not realizing that Gorals and Kaszubs, though having a distinct and unique regional identity...- Gorals: "an ethnographic (or ethnic) group primarily found in their traditional area of southern Poland, northern Slovakia, and in the region of Cieszyn Silesia in the Czech Republic (Silesian Gorals)"; Kashubians: "a West Slavic ethnic group in Pomerelia, north-central Poland. Their settlement area is referred to as Kashubia (Kashubian: Kaszëbë; Polish: Kaszuby; German: Kaschubei, Kaschubien)".
...overwhelmingly see themselves as Polish- so did Polish Jews at the eve of the war - why are they listed separately?
I do object your changes are not correct- which? You made seven reverts to which I replied at the top of this post - which do you still object, and why exactly?
also quoting other Wikipedia articles is not a reliable reference source- of course not, but they are backed by sources, and it's easy to add some more ( [1], [2]). François Robere ( talk) 13:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
To all the questionable and incorrect changes you made. Also, you do not need to change anymore section titles because its clear that you are trying to project your POV on to the article, and the Goral/Kaszubs example is proof of that. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:29, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
https://universitas.com.pl/produkt/3751/Wymuszona-wspolpraca-czy-zdrada-Wokol-przypadkow-kolaboracji-Zydow-w-okupowanym-Krakowie Xx236 ( talk) 06:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
The number of German soldiers in occupied Poland was generally much lower. It was high only when the front passed Poland in in 1939, 1941 and 1944/1945. My source is G. Aly Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State. Xx236 ( talk) 09:46, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
National service is a system of either compulsory or voluntary government service.
Xx236 ( talk) 06:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of discussion focused on other editors rather than on high-quality sources. Remember, wikipedia editing is based on sources and this should be the focus of talk page discussions, not what motivations you think other editors have. This article is under discretionary sanctions, and if it starts degenerating again it's likely to result in more sanctions for battleground behavior. If you object to an edit, bring sources to the table that show how the edit is incorrect. (And no, I won't be banning/blocking/etc because, again, my Holocaust editing likely makes me an involved editor so I'm posting this just as a helpful reminder of best editing practices and as a wake up call). Ealdgyth - Talk 13:51, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Mainstream works on collaboration in Nazi occupied Poland(besides dividing it between General Government and Annexed Territories, something this article completely lacks) is the massive organized effort to punish collaboration and setting up underground judiciary system by Polish Government in Exile that prosecuted and sentenced collaborators. Polish Wikipedia has a seperate article on the subject https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%85dy_podziemne And there are available publications discussing it in detail
It would very constructive for the article to add this section and information from scholarly works. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:53, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
If anyone wants to discuss this [10] I don't see it adding much on the subject. As I mentioned earlier There is almost no mention of collaboration in the quote-we already have numerous quotes and data regarding antisemitism.Note that it on its own isn't necessarily collaboration,some anti-semites were hostile to both Jews and Germans, some assisted Jews in surviving genocide, while wanting them out of Poland after the war. As to number of Jews that were saved and that were denounced-there is already very lenghty passage above it, so really don't see how it improves the article. Generally building articles by adding quotes after quotes doesn't seem good form to me.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Generally building articles by adding quotes after quotes doesn't seem good form to meYet you support including Kumoch, who isn't an RS. François Robere ( talk) 21:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
What is this page about? You can't write about any collaboration if you don't know what the collaboration is. Lack of definition allows to attack Polish people ignoring facts and historical context. Xx236 ( talk) 06:35, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 09:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Re: the above - if anyone can give the full citation for
http://www.fpnp.pl/info/pdf/baudienst.pdf
, as well as a translation of the passage for context. Thanks.
François Robere (
talk)
18:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
This edit removed information that Baudienst was forced labour [12], although it was supported by RS and a quote" Baudienst (Construction Service) was a forced labour scheme for young men introduced in 1940 The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland Under the General Government page 122". The information that Baudienst was forced labour is not controversial, it's a simple historic fact, and I can provide dozens of both Polish and English scholarly works that state it.
Marianne Kahnert, David C. Pitt, Ilkka Taipale - 1983 - Snippet view - More editions "Adolescents and children were also forced to do hard labour at their home. Local forced labour groups were established, the so called "Baudienst""
Joseph R. Mitchell, Helen Buss Mitchell - 2001 ... the Polish Baudienst or 'Building Service', a National Socialist forced labour organization which coordinated the exploitation of young Polish male workers
Józef Marszałek - 1998 The second category consisted of forced labour camps, of which type 792 functioned between 1939-1945. ... The forced labour camps of the Baudienst des Generalgouvernements (Construction Service of the Government General)
Kiryl Sosnowski, Wanda Machlejd - 1962 In Poland, as in other countries, forced labour on the spot was introduced as well as deportation for work in the Reich. In the «General Government*, a Baudienst (building service) was organized.
The fact that Baudienst was forced labour is not disputed by any scholars I am aware of. And as this is a very important fact, then I see no reason to remove this information.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 06:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Using an eds nationality race or ethnicity to belittle or dismiss their opinions is against policy, I ask all users to stop it. Slatersteven ( talk) 08:50, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:26, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The section should describe the police. The Baudienst was a forced labor service and Wehrmacht was an army. Xx236 ( talk) 11:52, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Friedrich (2005), Collaboration in a Land without Quisling:
Beyond strengthening the Nazified education and discipline of the younger generation through "hard labor," the organization also pursued economic and politically propagandistic aims. The Baudienst was made up of eighteen- to twenty three-year-old Polish and Ukrainian draftees who were kept in barracks under the command of German officers, paid "pocket-money," and made to labor in public works... Towards the end of the war, the cheap labor reserve gained importance in the buildup of defense positions in the GG...
Polish firemen, volunteers of "Organisation Todt" who were usually engaged in construction work, and Baudienst conscripts or junacy (as they were often called in Polish) took part in anti-Jewish crimes as auxiliary staff... In June 1942, "an unknown number of Poles from the Baudienst" supported SS, German, and Polish police in a vast operation (Aktion) against forty thousand Jews who had been compelled to reside in the southern Polish town of Tarnow. Junacy dug up graves where Jewish victims of massacres were buried (for example, in Sambor), they closed off the Jewish quarter in order to keep inmates from fleeing, and they took part in deportations; sometimes the Poles had to search houses and apartments after theirJewish inhabitants had been deported. Dutifully, they dragged those who were hiding out of sheds and crawlspaces and collected the Jews' belongings...
François Robere ( talk) 14:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Note: In general what we're talking about here is a certain class of services provided by the state, intended (in a well-functioning state) to maintain safety, security and order. Different terms are employed in different places to describe different services: national service, emergency services, armed services, community service, civic service (not to be confused with "civil services") etc. My main reason for moving the "Baudienst" in with the "Blue Police" and "Wehrmacht" is that they're essentially part of the same class of organizations; the name of the section is of lesser importance.
François Robere (
talk)
20:04, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
This is seems highly dubious original research or lack of knowledge.There was no national service in Genera Government nor was it a state.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:46, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Enough wit the emotive rhetoric. The issue of whether or not forced collaboration is collaboration is different from the issue of whether or not labour battalions are part of the security forces. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I think we are losing our way here. We are talking about their presence in security services. I am, sure we can all agree that renaming this to "public works" is nonsensical given the presence of police. So arew we saying we rename the section, or move them to a new one? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
it seems we need to console all of this in that one section- conscription, forced labor, and zeal in persecuting Jews that is unexplained by either. François Robere ( talk) 12:08, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Xx236: Please self-revert this. Discussion is ongoing and it's a WP:CRP violation. François Robere ( talk) 20:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
The text and reference sources on the Paulinów incident and Hotel Polski affair should be re-add to the article: "Jewish agent-provocateurs were used by the Germans in several high profile actions to entrap Poles who were helping Jews, and to bait Jews hiding outside of the ghettos. In one incident in the village of Paulinów, the Germans used a Jewish agent to pose as an escapee looking for a hiding place with a Polish family, after receiving help the agent denounced the Polish family to the Germans, resulting in the deaths of 12 Poles and several Jews who were hiding with the family. Jewish agents from the Żagiew network, falsely promised Jews hiding outside of the ghetto in Warsaw who held foreign passports a safe place at Hotel Polski, while they waited to leave the General Government for neutral countries. Around 2,500 Jews came out of their hiding places and moved to the hotel. All were then transferred to the Vittel and Bergen-Belsen concentration camps"
I added the text on the Paulinów incident and Hotel Polski affair as two examples of agent-provocateur actions — first dealing with Poles being victims of the tactic and the second Jews, however user François Robere removed them, both examples are legitimate with sources (more can be included). -- E-960 ( talk) 18:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This seems very informative and I think it would be constructive addition to the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
The Jewish Historical Institute mentions these Jewish collaborators: [18] How did the Gestapo get these documents? In the case of Hotel Polski were involved two Jewish collaborators: Leon „Lolek” Skosowski and Adam Żurawin. The A Surplus of Memory: Chronicle of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising by Yitzhak ("Antek") Zuckerman also mentions Zagiew and these collaborators on page 324 as does Tadeusz Piotrowski in Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces on page 74. If needed I can quote them.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC) Besides the two very good sources above there is mention of this in other publications, for example
Holocaust Survivors in Canada: Exclusion, Inclusion, Transformation,1947-1955 by Anna Goldberg states International passports and guarantees for Central and South American countries were sold by Jewish collaborators at Hotel Polski and came from Switzerland
The book The Case of Hotel Polski: An Account of One of the Most Enigmatic Episodes of World War II by Abraham Shulman also names Jewish collaborators as responsible. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
"Then those sources need to be used" Goood, we can use then Jewish Historical Institute, Tadeusz Piotrowski and Anna Goldberg among other secondary sources. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:58, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Notes:
Questions:
François Robere ( talk) 02:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm again asking:
François Robere ( talk) 16:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ François Robere: Re: [19]? I'd appreciate an explanation. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
further discussion on that can of course occurNo discussion has occurred. You restored the text with only minor changes, while ignoring the objections raised during the previous discussion. What you should've done is brought it to talk so a text that's acceptable to everyone can be formulated. François Robere ( talk) 16:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Can we keep this in one thread? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I have reviewed the RfC and rewriting was suggested and IMHO preferred. The old sentence made unfounded claims about Jewish collaborationist groups, the current version seems more correct attributing the agency to Germans using individual Jewish agents. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:58, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
If you have reliable sources about the Baudienst, please correct that page. This page is about the Collaboration in German-occupied Poland, not about basic description of the Baudienst. Xx236 ( talk) 07:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
It quotes a 1984 book by Wróblewski. It's based on his doctor thesis. Xx236 ( talk) 09:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Outside the sphere of collaboration with the German occupiers, a small minority of Poles murdered Jews during the Holocaust, while some Poles - considered traitors by the
Polish state - participated in German-inspired pogroms and informed on and even blackmailed Jews and their Polish protectors. Collaboration by Poland's German and Ukrainian minorities was widespread.
Is it a small minority?
This appears to be a rhetorical question, so you need to do the math. Even if ten separate Poles were to have murdered each one of these 40,000 Jews, then 400,000 Poles were involved: that's 400,000 / 24,300,000 1939 population of ethnic Poles = 0.0016% of all ethnic Poles. Even that is a small minority. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 16:50, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E-960: Regarding your string of reverts from today, before we go over them one by one let's just make this clear: The article was last restructured several months ago, when it was still just a section under "Collaboration with the Axis powers". At the state of the article today this structure in inadequate. The sections have no clear criteria, alternating between field (eg. "politics"), case ("Baudienst") and identity ("ethnic minorities), and in some cases mix disparate subjects (eg. early state-level arrangements and later party-level suggestions).
The edits:
François Robere ( talk) 20:08, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I see no rationale to change those titles which were applicable to the corresponding text- I gave you a rational.
the fact that the POLISH STATE never collaborated with the Germans- does the text imply anything else? No. The sections are supposed to follow a certain order; I expect other articles of this sort would follow a similar structure: "what did the state do", "how did the politicia react", "to what degree did the security services cooperate with the regime of terror" etc. This is an "inventory" of sorts, which in this case would list under "State collaboration" " N/A" (cf. "collaboration and the resistance" that elaborates on both collaboration and defiance). If that'll sooth your worries, we can rename the section "State defiance" or "State noncollaboration"; at any rate I'm of the opinion that section should be split in two.
As for the other items on your list, there is nothing wrong with them- can you explain exactly what's not wrong for each of the cases? François Robere ( talk) 15:20, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
Any time an editors just comes in and changes half of the long standing section titles, that raises a red flagso that's a free license to "shoot first, ask questions later"?
it appears that you simply lack a full in-depth understanding on certain topics, as demonstrated when you moved the text on Gorals and Kaszubs to the Collaboration by ethnic minorities section, not realizing that Gorals and Kaszubs, though having a distinct and unique regional identity...- Gorals: "an ethnographic (or ethnic) group primarily found in their traditional area of southern Poland, northern Slovakia, and in the region of Cieszyn Silesia in the Czech Republic (Silesian Gorals)"; Kashubians: "a West Slavic ethnic group in Pomerelia, north-central Poland. Their settlement area is referred to as Kashubia (Kashubian: Kaszëbë; Polish: Kaszuby; German: Kaschubei, Kaschubien)".
...overwhelmingly see themselves as Polish- so did Polish Jews at the eve of the war - why are they listed separately?
I do object your changes are not correct- which? You made seven reverts to which I replied at the top of this post - which do you still object, and why exactly?
also quoting other Wikipedia articles is not a reliable reference source- of course not, but they are backed by sources, and it's easy to add some more ( [1], [2]). François Robere ( talk) 13:01, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
To all the questionable and incorrect changes you made. Also, you do not need to change anymore section titles because its clear that you are trying to project your POV on to the article, and the Goral/Kaszubs example is proof of that. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:29, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite encyclopedia}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
https://universitas.com.pl/produkt/3751/Wymuszona-wspolpraca-czy-zdrada-Wokol-przypadkow-kolaboracji-Zydow-w-okupowanym-Krakowie Xx236 ( talk) 06:07, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
The number of German soldiers in occupied Poland was generally much lower. It was high only when the front passed Poland in in 1939, 1941 and 1944/1945. My source is G. Aly Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State. Xx236 ( talk) 09:46, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
National service is a system of either compulsory or voluntary government service.
Xx236 ( talk) 06:00, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of discussion focused on other editors rather than on high-quality sources. Remember, wikipedia editing is based on sources and this should be the focus of talk page discussions, not what motivations you think other editors have. This article is under discretionary sanctions, and if it starts degenerating again it's likely to result in more sanctions for battleground behavior. If you object to an edit, bring sources to the table that show how the edit is incorrect. (And no, I won't be banning/blocking/etc because, again, my Holocaust editing likely makes me an involved editor so I'm posting this just as a helpful reminder of best editing practices and as a wake up call). Ealdgyth - Talk 13:51, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
Mainstream works on collaboration in Nazi occupied Poland(besides dividing it between General Government and Annexed Territories, something this article completely lacks) is the massive organized effort to punish collaboration and setting up underground judiciary system by Polish Government in Exile that prosecuted and sentenced collaborators. Polish Wikipedia has a seperate article on the subject https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C4%85dy_podziemne And there are available publications discussing it in detail
It would very constructive for the article to add this section and information from scholarly works. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:53, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
If anyone wants to discuss this [10] I don't see it adding much on the subject. As I mentioned earlier There is almost no mention of collaboration in the quote-we already have numerous quotes and data regarding antisemitism.Note that it on its own isn't necessarily collaboration,some anti-semites were hostile to both Jews and Germans, some assisted Jews in surviving genocide, while wanting them out of Poland after the war. As to number of Jews that were saved and that were denounced-there is already very lenghty passage above it, so really don't see how it improves the article. Generally building articles by adding quotes after quotes doesn't seem good form to me.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 18:32, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Generally building articles by adding quotes after quotes doesn't seem good form to meYet you support including Kumoch, who isn't an RS. François Robere ( talk) 21:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
What is this page about? You can't write about any collaboration if you don't know what the collaboration is. Lack of definition allows to attack Polish people ignoring facts and historical context. Xx236 ( talk) 06:35, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 09:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Re: the above - if anyone can give the full citation for
http://www.fpnp.pl/info/pdf/baudienst.pdf
, as well as a translation of the passage for context. Thanks.
François Robere (
talk)
18:08, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
This edit removed information that Baudienst was forced labour [12], although it was supported by RS and a quote" Baudienst (Construction Service) was a forced labour scheme for young men introduced in 1940 The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland Under the General Government page 122". The information that Baudienst was forced labour is not controversial, it's a simple historic fact, and I can provide dozens of both Polish and English scholarly works that state it.
Marianne Kahnert, David C. Pitt, Ilkka Taipale - 1983 - Snippet view - More editions "Adolescents and children were also forced to do hard labour at their home. Local forced labour groups were established, the so called "Baudienst""
Joseph R. Mitchell, Helen Buss Mitchell - 2001 ... the Polish Baudienst or 'Building Service', a National Socialist forced labour organization which coordinated the exploitation of young Polish male workers
Józef Marszałek - 1998 The second category consisted of forced labour camps, of which type 792 functioned between 1939-1945. ... The forced labour camps of the Baudienst des Generalgouvernements (Construction Service of the Government General)
Kiryl Sosnowski, Wanda Machlejd - 1962 In Poland, as in other countries, forced labour on the spot was introduced as well as deportation for work in the Reich. In the «General Government*, a Baudienst (building service) was organized.
The fact that Baudienst was forced labour is not disputed by any scholars I am aware of. And as this is a very important fact, then I see no reason to remove this information.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 06:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Using an eds nationality race or ethnicity to belittle or dismiss their opinions is against policy, I ask all users to stop it. Slatersteven ( talk) 08:50, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:26, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
The section should describe the police. The Baudienst was a forced labor service and Wehrmacht was an army. Xx236 ( talk) 11:52, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Friedrich (2005), Collaboration in a Land without Quisling:
Beyond strengthening the Nazified education and discipline of the younger generation through "hard labor," the organization also pursued economic and politically propagandistic aims. The Baudienst was made up of eighteen- to twenty three-year-old Polish and Ukrainian draftees who were kept in barracks under the command of German officers, paid "pocket-money," and made to labor in public works... Towards the end of the war, the cheap labor reserve gained importance in the buildup of defense positions in the GG...
Polish firemen, volunteers of "Organisation Todt" who were usually engaged in construction work, and Baudienst conscripts or junacy (as they were often called in Polish) took part in anti-Jewish crimes as auxiliary staff... In June 1942, "an unknown number of Poles from the Baudienst" supported SS, German, and Polish police in a vast operation (Aktion) against forty thousand Jews who had been compelled to reside in the southern Polish town of Tarnow. Junacy dug up graves where Jewish victims of massacres were buried (for example, in Sambor), they closed off the Jewish quarter in order to keep inmates from fleeing, and they took part in deportations; sometimes the Poles had to search houses and apartments after theirJewish inhabitants had been deported. Dutifully, they dragged those who were hiding out of sheds and crawlspaces and collected the Jews' belongings...
François Robere ( talk) 14:49, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Xx236 ( talk) 06:48, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Note: In general what we're talking about here is a certain class of services provided by the state, intended (in a well-functioning state) to maintain safety, security and order. Different terms are employed in different places to describe different services: national service, emergency services, armed services, community service, civic service (not to be confused with "civil services") etc. My main reason for moving the "Baudienst" in with the "Blue Police" and "Wehrmacht" is that they're essentially part of the same class of organizations; the name of the section is of lesser importance.
François Robere (
talk)
20:04, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
This is seems highly dubious original research or lack of knowledge.There was no national service in Genera Government nor was it a state.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:46, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Enough wit the emotive rhetoric. The issue of whether or not forced collaboration is collaboration is different from the issue of whether or not labour battalions are part of the security forces. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:50, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I think we are losing our way here. We are talking about their presence in security services. I am, sure we can all agree that renaming this to "public works" is nonsensical given the presence of police. So arew we saying we rename the section, or move them to a new one? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:41, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
it seems we need to console all of this in that one section- conscription, forced labor, and zeal in persecuting Jews that is unexplained by either. François Robere ( talk) 12:08, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Xx236: Please self-revert this. Discussion is ongoing and it's a WP:CRP violation. François Robere ( talk) 20:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
The text and reference sources on the Paulinów incident and Hotel Polski affair should be re-add to the article: "Jewish agent-provocateurs were used by the Germans in several high profile actions to entrap Poles who were helping Jews, and to bait Jews hiding outside of the ghettos. In one incident in the village of Paulinów, the Germans used a Jewish agent to pose as an escapee looking for a hiding place with a Polish family, after receiving help the agent denounced the Polish family to the Germans, resulting in the deaths of 12 Poles and several Jews who were hiding with the family. Jewish agents from the Żagiew network, falsely promised Jews hiding outside of the ghetto in Warsaw who held foreign passports a safe place at Hotel Polski, while they waited to leave the General Government for neutral countries. Around 2,500 Jews came out of their hiding places and moved to the hotel. All were then transferred to the Vittel and Bergen-Belsen concentration camps"
I added the text on the Paulinów incident and Hotel Polski affair as two examples of agent-provocateur actions — first dealing with Poles being victims of the tactic and the second Jews, however user François Robere removed them, both examples are legitimate with sources (more can be included). -- E-960 ( talk) 18:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
This seems very informative and I think it would be constructive addition to the article.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:00, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
The Jewish Historical Institute mentions these Jewish collaborators: [18] How did the Gestapo get these documents? In the case of Hotel Polski were involved two Jewish collaborators: Leon „Lolek” Skosowski and Adam Żurawin. The A Surplus of Memory: Chronicle of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising by Yitzhak ("Antek") Zuckerman also mentions Zagiew and these collaborators on page 324 as does Tadeusz Piotrowski in Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces on page 74. If needed I can quote them.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:24, 21 August 2018 (UTC) Besides the two very good sources above there is mention of this in other publications, for example
Holocaust Survivors in Canada: Exclusion, Inclusion, Transformation,1947-1955 by Anna Goldberg states International passports and guarantees for Central and South American countries were sold by Jewish collaborators at Hotel Polski and came from Switzerland
The book The Case of Hotel Polski: An Account of One of the Most Enigmatic Episodes of World War II by Abraham Shulman also names Jewish collaborators as responsible. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
"Then those sources need to be used" Goood, we can use then Jewish Historical Institute, Tadeusz Piotrowski and Anna Goldberg among other secondary sources. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 21:58, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Notes:
Questions:
François Robere ( talk) 02:56, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm again asking:
François Robere ( talk) 16:18, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
@ François Robere: Re: [19]? I'd appreciate an explanation. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
further discussion on that can of course occurNo discussion has occurred. You restored the text with only minor changes, while ignoring the objections raised during the previous discussion. What you should've done is brought it to talk so a text that's acceptable to everyone can be formulated. François Robere ( talk) 16:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Can we keep this in one thread? Slatersteven ( talk) 16:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
I have reviewed the RfC and rewriting was suggested and IMHO preferred. The old sentence made unfounded claims about Jewish collaborationist groups, the current version seems more correct attributing the agency to Germans using individual Jewish agents. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:58, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
If you have reliable sources about the Baudienst, please correct that page. This page is about the Collaboration in German-occupied Poland, not about basic description of the Baudienst. Xx236 ( talk) 07:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC)
It quotes a 1984 book by Wróblewski. It's based on his doctor thesis. Xx236 ( talk) 09:37, 24 August 2018 (UTC)