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Currently, there is a long list of people, entirely based on material by Max Schumann, executive director of a group known as Printed Matter, Inc where the basis of inclusion was based on being a blue link. Some of those people in that list that I trimmed out pending consensus, are heavily dependent on that Printed Matter, Inc source too. Per @ Vexations:, it seems like the requisite to be a Colab member is to attend three meetings. I believe a list like this is undue and Wikipedia is also not a webhost. Such directory like information is better suited on their own website, with the exception of particularly notable members that have proper secondary, independent coverage (not cottage mill advocacy agencies for artists) with reference to their membership to Colab. If this was to be the threshold to inclusion, then it would open up door to more and more pages being filled up with people list, such as a church article whose largest content is a list of people who have a Wikipedia entry that are church members whose Wikipedia pages are primarily sourced to borderline sources. Max Schumann source might be considered a WP:SPS given that he's the executive director and publishing it under his own publishing house, rather than the executive director of Printed Matter, Inc who had it published through something totally independent of his own business/organization. Graywalls ( talk) 17:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
I address this question below. Absolutely not "self-published". Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
This is the contents in question whose inclusion or non-inclusion (partial and or in entirety) I am trying to establish consensus. A very lengthy list was inserted by the article's creator, who then spinned it off to a new article about members of Colab, which was AfD'd with conensus to "merge" however, I believe how much of that list's contents are appropriate here is something for discussion here. Graywalls ( talk)
The following is a list of artists who participated in (or were associated with) Colab. [1]
References
Just want to note here that Kiki was closely involved with Colab for a few years, and was in fact an officer of the group. [cf. http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/fales/callard/ box 1] She also made a number of episodes of the Colab cable TV program "Potato Wolf". (She discusses this in another recent interview [5], and the evidence is here: https://archive.org/details/mwf_video_club&tab=collection . I'm going to do a little work on this page next month. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Limit it to members whose article makes mention of their membership and where that claim is supported by independent, reliable sourcesI meant that if a high quality source like Grove Art Online, both in their article on Colab AND in their article on the member artist makes mention of said artists' membership, inclusion in a list of member is verifiable, relevant and due. See [6] and [7] Vexations ( talk) 19:15, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Valueyou, there's clearly no consensus in favor of including the extensive list above. Please engage in discussion here and establish consensus per WP:ONUS. Pinging participants @ Star Mississippi and Vexations: Graywalls ( talk) 11:40, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
I do think the list is too longthat was because the sourcing for some members was dubious. If all we have is a single source for a long list, that's not good enough. If we have multiple sources, they should be listed. Vexations ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Just confirming I saw the ping. I'm busy over the next day or so but will try to come back to this by Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest. Don't wait on me if there's consensus in the interim. StarM 02:33, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
When looking into the long list of people, I am seeing Max Schumann, publishing through Printed Matters, an organization to which he is the executive director; as well as 98bowery/Marc Miller and that book about Colab by Alan Moore very frequently used. When determining due weight, I believe it is necessary to determine that if they're affiliated with Colab or if those sources are truly independent of Colab, ABC No Rio and people whose biography mentioned in written pieces by those people. Graywalls ( talk) 02:01, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY Please note: Printed Matter is a 501c-3 non-profit dedicated to artists' books, distribution and publication. Max Schumann is the current director. PM is on WikiP, BTW, so you can see what it is. This is NOT a vanity publication. "A Book About Colab" was edited by Max as an artists' book, which it is -- an anthology of primary texts, reprinted excerpts, and images. My own "ABC No Rio Dinero", edited by me and Marc Miller, and published by Colab in 1985 is also a collection of original and republished texts. But, since Marc and I are both PhD art historians, it was intended as a history and has a more clear structure than "A Book About". Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: The idea that Max can "can basically write and publish whatever he wants at his discretion" misrepresents processes of producing expensive projects in non-profit organizations. Again, this is an edited collection. It a primary, not a secondary textual source. Max, BTW, exhibited as an artist at ABC No Rio (as did uncounted numbers of others over 40 years), and became aware of Colab (the founding organization of ABC No Rio) years before he worked for Printed Matter. He was enthused (his father founded Bread & Puppet Theatre, another famous collective), and when he had the chance he took on this book project many years later. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Alan Moore appears directly involved with ABC No Rio as well as Colab. ?? http://artfcity.com/2012/07/09/the-abc-no-rio-interviews-alan-moore/2/ and https://collaborativeprojects.wordpress.com/artists/
REPLY: I am. Marc Miller co-edited "ABC No Rio Dinero" with me. He later mounted much of the book to his own website, 98bowery.com. I am presently developing a large-scale historical recuperation project around ABC No Rio's 40 years (only a few of which I was directly involved in) right now (3/21) for launch in '22. As for Colab, a number of us are involved in developing the (now more rare) projects and doing maintenance on its histories. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
A Book About Colab (and Related Activities) – edited by Max Schumann , and with a Foreword and Afterword by art writer and Colab member Walter Robinson - Schumann is executive director of Printed Matter, Inc, publishing through his own company, not independent and WP:SPS. Also, Robinson is a member, so also not independent. Graywalls ( talk) 18:46, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: AgainPrinted Matter is most emphatically not Max's company. He is a hired hand, and serves at the pleasure of the board of directors. This is normal in all New York State non-profit corporations. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The questions posed above has not been addressed satisfactorily yet. Despite repeated use of the same Hyperallergic sources, a large portion of materially significant contents of the article remain sourced to the aforementioned Miller, Moore, Schumann published via his own Printed Matter, Inc, dependent sources, so I don't feel when to remove template was quite satisfied to resolve primary and connected source dependence concern. Discussion would be much appreciated. Thank you all, Graywalls ( talk) 20:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: There are many other sources for Colab. I'll round some up and put them in. But this just popped up on my radar today (I don't get notifications on this page), and it will take me some time. I'll take them direct from my "Art Gangs" book (Autonomedia, 2012), which is also not in this list of references. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
see /info/en/?search=Talk:Joseph_Nechvatal#WP:COI Graywalls ( talk) 17:04, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
If you’re not specific about what you think is wrong, how is anyone supposed to fix the article? Vexations ( talk) 15:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Colab Members was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 28 February 2021 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Colab. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view. Their edits to this article were last checked for neutrality on 8 May 2021 by Vexations.
|
![]() | The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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autobiography, and
neutral point of view.
|
Currently, there is a long list of people, entirely based on material by Max Schumann, executive director of a group known as Printed Matter, Inc where the basis of inclusion was based on being a blue link. Some of those people in that list that I trimmed out pending consensus, are heavily dependent on that Printed Matter, Inc source too. Per @ Vexations:, it seems like the requisite to be a Colab member is to attend three meetings. I believe a list like this is undue and Wikipedia is also not a webhost. Such directory like information is better suited on their own website, with the exception of particularly notable members that have proper secondary, independent coverage (not cottage mill advocacy agencies for artists) with reference to their membership to Colab. If this was to be the threshold to inclusion, then it would open up door to more and more pages being filled up with people list, such as a church article whose largest content is a list of people who have a Wikipedia entry that are church members whose Wikipedia pages are primarily sourced to borderline sources. Max Schumann source might be considered a WP:SPS given that he's the executive director and publishing it under his own publishing house, rather than the executive director of Printed Matter, Inc who had it published through something totally independent of his own business/organization. Graywalls ( talk) 17:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
I address this question below. Absolutely not "self-published". Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
This is the contents in question whose inclusion or non-inclusion (partial and or in entirety) I am trying to establish consensus. A very lengthy list was inserted by the article's creator, who then spinned it off to a new article about members of Colab, which was AfD'd with conensus to "merge" however, I believe how much of that list's contents are appropriate here is something for discussion here. Graywalls ( talk)
The following is a list of artists who participated in (or were associated with) Colab. [1]
References
Just want to note here that Kiki was closely involved with Colab for a few years, and was in fact an officer of the group. [cf. http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/fales/callard/ box 1] She also made a number of episodes of the Colab cable TV program "Potato Wolf". (She discusses this in another recent interview [5], and the evidence is here: https://archive.org/details/mwf_video_club&tab=collection . I'm going to do a little work on this page next month. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Limit it to members whose article makes mention of their membership and where that claim is supported by independent, reliable sourcesI meant that if a high quality source like Grove Art Online, both in their article on Colab AND in their article on the member artist makes mention of said artists' membership, inclusion in a list of member is verifiable, relevant and due. See [6] and [7] Vexations ( talk) 19:15, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
Valueyou, there's clearly no consensus in favor of including the extensive list above. Please engage in discussion here and establish consensus per WP:ONUS. Pinging participants @ Star Mississippi and Vexations: Graywalls ( talk) 11:40, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
I do think the list is too longthat was because the sourcing for some members was dubious. If all we have is a single source for a long list, that's not good enough. If we have multiple sources, they should be listed. Vexations ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
Just confirming I saw the ping. I'm busy over the next day or so but will try to come back to this by Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest. Don't wait on me if there's consensus in the interim. StarM 02:33, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
When looking into the long list of people, I am seeing Max Schumann, publishing through Printed Matters, an organization to which he is the executive director; as well as 98bowery/Marc Miller and that book about Colab by Alan Moore very frequently used. When determining due weight, I believe it is necessary to determine that if they're affiliated with Colab or if those sources are truly independent of Colab, ABC No Rio and people whose biography mentioned in written pieces by those people. Graywalls ( talk) 02:01, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY Please note: Printed Matter is a 501c-3 non-profit dedicated to artists' books, distribution and publication. Max Schumann is the current director. PM is on WikiP, BTW, so you can see what it is. This is NOT a vanity publication. "A Book About Colab" was edited by Max as an artists' book, which it is -- an anthology of primary texts, reprinted excerpts, and images. My own "ABC No Rio Dinero", edited by me and Marc Miller, and published by Colab in 1985 is also a collection of original and republished texts. But, since Marc and I are both PhD art historians, it was intended as a history and has a more clear structure than "A Book About". Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: The idea that Max can "can basically write and publish whatever he wants at his discretion" misrepresents processes of producing expensive projects in non-profit organizations. Again, this is an edited collection. It a primary, not a secondary textual source. Max, BTW, exhibited as an artist at ABC No Rio (as did uncounted numbers of others over 40 years), and became aware of Colab (the founding organization of ABC No Rio) years before he worked for Printed Matter. He was enthused (his father founded Bread & Puppet Theatre, another famous collective), and when he had the chance he took on this book project many years later. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
Alan Moore appears directly involved with ABC No Rio as well as Colab. ?? http://artfcity.com/2012/07/09/the-abc-no-rio-interviews-alan-moore/2/ and https://collaborativeprojects.wordpress.com/artists/
REPLY: I am. Marc Miller co-edited "ABC No Rio Dinero" with me. He later mounted much of the book to his own website, 98bowery.com. I am presently developing a large-scale historical recuperation project around ABC No Rio's 40 years (only a few of which I was directly involved in) right now (3/21) for launch in '22. As for Colab, a number of us are involved in developing the (now more rare) projects and doing maintenance on its histories. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
A Book About Colab (and Related Activities) – edited by Max Schumann , and with a Foreword and Afterword by art writer and Colab member Walter Robinson - Schumann is executive director of Printed Matter, Inc, publishing through his own company, not independent and WP:SPS. Also, Robinson is a member, so also not independent. Graywalls ( talk) 18:46, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: AgainPrinted Matter is most emphatically not Max's company. He is a hired hand, and serves at the pleasure of the board of directors. This is normal in all New York State non-profit corporations. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
The questions posed above has not been addressed satisfactorily yet. Despite repeated use of the same Hyperallergic sources, a large portion of materially significant contents of the article remain sourced to the aforementioned Miller, Moore, Schumann published via his own Printed Matter, Inc, dependent sources, so I don't feel when to remove template was quite satisfied to resolve primary and connected source dependence concern. Discussion would be much appreciated. Thank you all, Graywalls ( talk) 20:33, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
REPLY: There are many other sources for Colab. I'll round some up and put them in. But this just popped up on my radar today (I don't get notifications on this page), and it will take me some time. I'll take them direct from my "Art Gangs" book (Autonomedia, 2012), which is also not in this list of references. Alanwmoore ( talk) 21:10, 17 March 2021 (UTC)
see /info/en/?search=Talk:Joseph_Nechvatal#WP:COI Graywalls ( talk) 17:04, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
If you’re not specific about what you think is wrong, how is anyone supposed to fix the article? Vexations ( talk) 15:18, 6 May 2021 (UTC)