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This article is critically reviewed in this article by an expert.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The discussion of money-changing is contradictory - the intro suggests (and I believe this to be true) that all money needed to be changed, while further down it suggests (uncited) that this was a service for travelers. Henry Troup ( talk) 13:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Most often when this passage is cited, it is done so in service to any of 4 divergent points: 1. Jesus was not a pacifist, advocating and using force in cases of flagrant abuse and/or violations of property rights; 2. Jesus considered profiteering offensive to the point of justifying violence to stop it, specifically challenging Jewish custom; and 3. Jesus ( anachronistically)recognized the right of the individual to make a " citizen's arrest" in situations of ongoing or flagrant abuse, using violence to the extent necessary to intervene in the illegal behavior. Yet there is no mention in the article of scholarly discussion or popular interpretation of these "pro-violence" passages. Overall, this is allegedly the only place in the Bible in which Jesus appears to exercise (and therefore, implicitly approve) violence, which most Christian societies (and many groups and/or individuals) claim as a right or responsibility under some circumstances. 4. This story also states the importance to keep the house of God pure. When Jesus overturned the Dove tables this is a symbol to all of mankind that the house of God shouldn't be used as a house of business. Even if the items being sold are used for the worship of God PlayCuz ( talk) 16:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
IMO, there is too much attention ( undue weight) given to the doves in this article. The article is about Jesus and the moneychangers, not Jesus and the doves. Comments? -- SkagitRiverQueen ( talk) 16:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the second restating of how Jesus did nothing to the doves. It's really not relevant to a secular encyclopedia, and seemed redundant to state it more than once. As I stated above, the article is about Jesus and the moneychangers, not Jesus and the doves. IMO, the placement of this (and the placement of the speculation about *why* Jesus did nothing to the doves that has since been removed) is POV pushing and, of course, that is not allowed. Again, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a Bible commentary. -- SkagitRiverQueen ( talk) 17:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm an Atheist and don't know much about Christianity. Did Jesus have some kind of authority? Because I am having issues understanding how one man could destroy other peoples livelihood without them resisting. Was it some super rage that gave him god strength? Did people respect him and fly? Where they so stunned they fled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.188.56 ( talk) 05:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
E.P. Sanders, in ''Jesus and Judaism, pp. 301ff. made points similar to these: (1) Jesus conducted a very small-scale "prophetic action," or acted-out prophecy. The Temple Guards and Roman Antonia Tower detachment could see down into the Temple, yet they did not arrest Jesus. No disciples were allowed to help (implication is they were surprised). Nothing is said about Jesus being angry. The act was neither revolutionary nor violent (but see #4 below). (2) The action predicted the permanent replacement of the sacrificial cult with a universal ("all nations") Judaism of "prayer" and justice ("bandits"). (3) The change would mark the "Last Days" in which God's will would be perfectly done on earth, led by a Messianic king (Jesus). To Sanders, the chief priests and worshipers had been doing nothing wrong day-after-day. God's plan had just reached a great turning point. (4) The Chief Priests construed Jesus' act as a curse on the Temple and hence decided to arrest him for execution whenever they could without causing an uproar. His death would disprove any divine approval of Jesus' "threatening prediction." Jakob3 ( talk) 15:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
While it is obvious that Jesus said he didn't want God's house used for profiteering, it is unclear on what is acceptable. Is it acceptable to use the church for political gain? If Jesus were alive today, would he like the involvement of the church in politics to the point that politicians often speak at or give "sermons" for political influence? Is this not profiting from the church? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.76.26 ( talk) 07:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
The money changers provided a service to the worshipers. The Roman coins had the image of the Caesar, a graven image, which was in contravention of the Torah. Changing the coins for simple coins without the graven image was necessary to maintain the holiness of the Temple. Why was 'Jesus' so incensed by this? He should have been pleased. Clearly the author of the text was not conversant with the Jewish religion and made up this story to denigrate the Jews. Just one of many inaccuracies in the Christian Bible. 'Jesus' is a myth written by liberals with a political agenda which after a few hundred years brought them to power across the globe. That power is now waning and a new mythology, a new power, that of Islam is taking over. Islam rejects the divinity of 'Jesus'. Islam does not rely on miracles and proof-texts for its rational. It is the inarticulate duplicitous ramblings of a war lord out to conquer the entire world! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.233.70.234 ( talk) 10:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Tyrian Money. I'm confused. The article says:
"Gentile money could not be used at the Temple because of the graven images on it." Why then was Tyrian money with an engraving of Baal on it acceptable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.194.210 ( talk) 13:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
That use of the Tyrian shekel for the temple tax is probably precisely what Jesus objected to with the moneychangers and it was a significant argument within Judaism at the time. The Sadduccees controlled all Tyrian shekels (not legal tender by then for anything except temple tax) and distributed them to moneychangers. The exchange rate/cost of those shekels rose over time because of both the monopoly and the debasement of Roman currency. So effectively the cost of that temple tax obligation rose over time - making it more difficult for the poor to pay it. And it is likely that the oral tradition of the aftermath of that incident (the parable of 'Render unto Caesar') involved a shekel - not a denarius - which greatly changes the meaning/importance of that parable. Render unto Baal what is Baal's and unto God what is God's is an existential challenge to the Sanhedrin. This was an issue until the Temple revolt of 70CE - and one of the first acts was the minting of a different coin for the temple tax — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.134.196.115 ( talk) 07:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Over on reddit, several Orthodox Christians are confused by the part that says that Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea that "this is the only account of Jesus using physical force in any of the Gospels". We've added the citation needed tag to that claim, but we think that this part should be removed unless someone can find a citation for it. And if a citation is found, it should probably be reworded since we are quite sure that this is not a dogmatic teaching of the entire church, but might be a view held by some in the church.
Here is the edit that introduced this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhknight ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cleansing_of_the_Temple&curid=4775253&diff=712183592&oldid=711745740 some clean-up needed, at the least. Johnbod ( talk) 17:17, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
In Mark 11:15-19 Only the selling of doves.
In Matt 21:12-17 Only the selling of doves.
In Luke 19:45-48 The selling of things (unspecified)
In John 2:13-16 The selling of cattle and sheep (driven out with a whip) and doves, the most grandiose version, a common practice of this author. Only in the Gospel of John (John 18:3) do soldiers help to carry out the arrest of Jesus.
An analysis and response from the Association of Ancient Historians according to Brian Messner, Professor of History and Interdisciplinary Studies, Lincoln Christian University: "Animals would have been kept away from the temple building itself. In thinking back to the temples I've visited I can't think of a single one that had an animal pen inside the temenos (sacred boundary line) of the temple, so clearly the animals were kept elsewhere. The Temple in Jerusalem was a large complex of course, and while there is no evidence that animals would have been kept in the main building at the center of the complex, the Gospel accounts do suggest that they were in housed in one or more of the courts surrounding/leading up to the main Temple building. So, that would indeed be different than the typical Greco-Roman practice." Jesus's actions and anger are described as taking place in the court yard, not inside the temple itself. His anger and actions are centered on the selling of living creatures. Miistermagico ( talk) 18:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14303-temple-administration-and-service-of
https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/265167/bird-sacrifice-daf-yomi-244 Miistermagico ( talk) 20:05, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Article says:
"Do not ...", addressing the reader, is not encyclopaedic in style. The second part, changed in recent edit, is just strange - sentiments do not "attempt" anything, and the semicolon is spurious. I'm not sure what it should say, though, so I'll leave it to others to fix it. But please take a look!-- Nø ( talk) 09:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
The article purports to give Alexis-Baker's "history of the interpretation", but in fact includes only those elements portraying Christians in a bad light, as violent and blood-thirsty, and missing out any reference to Christian pacificism. Note that his paper says "The temple incident has been a popular episode in Jesus’ ministry from which Christians since Augustine have drawn to justify Christian violence ranging from punishing schismatics and heretics to justifying war and the death penalty. However, another tradition of reading this passage nonviolently began well before Augustine." [1] The section should be re-written to be balanced, rather than an anti-Christian polemic. 2A00:23C8:3B10:F901:DF0:C254:EF29:A162 ( talk) 14:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)Ian Hampson, Wales, October 2021 2A00:23C8:3B10:F901:DF0:C254:EF29:A162 ( talk) 14:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
References
Perhaps there can be an added "Historicity" section or the following notions added under "Analysis":
This is from Bart Ehrman's blog and similar points are made in the Jesus Seminar-related book, The Acts of Jesus:
'In our first account, Mark’s, Jesus actually shuts down the operation of the entire temple. The problem with using this as evidence for the historical Jesus himself is that, as critical scholars have long argued, Mark’s account simply cannot be accurate, in a literal sense, but is at best massively exaggerated. How could it be right that Jesus not only overturned the moneychangers’ tables and drove out those selling sacrificial animals, but also shut down the entire Temple cult?
'The Temple precincts were *enormous*. Within the walls of the Temple you could fit 25 American football fields. How exactly did Jesus stop all the activities in the Temple? Are we to imagine that Jesus pulled this off by himself? (Aslan indicates that his disciples were helping pull it off – but that’s not what any of our sources indicate.) Moreover, it is important to note this time of year — during the Passover Festival — is precisely when the Roman prefect Pilate came to Jerusalem with troops that he stationed at pressure points — most especially the temple (as we know from the historian Josephus) in order to squash any unrest of any kind. If Jesus had caused this kind of ruckus he would have been arrested on the spot. Are we supposed to think he simply vanished into thin air?
'True, it is almost certain that something happened at the Temple. But what was it?...'
Speculations that follow are available to his blog subscribers. I am one but forgot my password and the site is so far not e-mailing me the code to change my password. M.mk ( talk) 18:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Yup,
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cleansing of the Temple article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is critically reviewed in this article by an expert.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
The discussion of money-changing is contradictory - the intro suggests (and I believe this to be true) that all money needed to be changed, while further down it suggests (uncited) that this was a service for travelers. Henry Troup ( talk) 13:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Most often when this passage is cited, it is done so in service to any of 4 divergent points: 1. Jesus was not a pacifist, advocating and using force in cases of flagrant abuse and/or violations of property rights; 2. Jesus considered profiteering offensive to the point of justifying violence to stop it, specifically challenging Jewish custom; and 3. Jesus ( anachronistically)recognized the right of the individual to make a " citizen's arrest" in situations of ongoing or flagrant abuse, using violence to the extent necessary to intervene in the illegal behavior. Yet there is no mention in the article of scholarly discussion or popular interpretation of these "pro-violence" passages. Overall, this is allegedly the only place in the Bible in which Jesus appears to exercise (and therefore, implicitly approve) violence, which most Christian societies (and many groups and/or individuals) claim as a right or responsibility under some circumstances. 4. This story also states the importance to keep the house of God pure. When Jesus overturned the Dove tables this is a symbol to all of mankind that the house of God shouldn't be used as a house of business. Even if the items being sold are used for the worship of God PlayCuz ( talk) 16:32, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
IMO, there is too much attention ( undue weight) given to the doves in this article. The article is about Jesus and the moneychangers, not Jesus and the doves. Comments? -- SkagitRiverQueen ( talk) 16:48, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the second restating of how Jesus did nothing to the doves. It's really not relevant to a secular encyclopedia, and seemed redundant to state it more than once. As I stated above, the article is about Jesus and the moneychangers, not Jesus and the doves. IMO, the placement of this (and the placement of the speculation about *why* Jesus did nothing to the doves that has since been removed) is POV pushing and, of course, that is not allowed. Again, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a Bible commentary. -- SkagitRiverQueen ( talk) 17:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm an Atheist and don't know much about Christianity. Did Jesus have some kind of authority? Because I am having issues understanding how one man could destroy other peoples livelihood without them resisting. Was it some super rage that gave him god strength? Did people respect him and fly? Where they so stunned they fled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.188.56 ( talk) 05:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
E.P. Sanders, in ''Jesus and Judaism, pp. 301ff. made points similar to these: (1) Jesus conducted a very small-scale "prophetic action," or acted-out prophecy. The Temple Guards and Roman Antonia Tower detachment could see down into the Temple, yet they did not arrest Jesus. No disciples were allowed to help (implication is they were surprised). Nothing is said about Jesus being angry. The act was neither revolutionary nor violent (but see #4 below). (2) The action predicted the permanent replacement of the sacrificial cult with a universal ("all nations") Judaism of "prayer" and justice ("bandits"). (3) The change would mark the "Last Days" in which God's will would be perfectly done on earth, led by a Messianic king (Jesus). To Sanders, the chief priests and worshipers had been doing nothing wrong day-after-day. God's plan had just reached a great turning point. (4) The Chief Priests construed Jesus' act as a curse on the Temple and hence decided to arrest him for execution whenever they could without causing an uproar. His death would disprove any divine approval of Jesus' "threatening prediction." Jakob3 ( talk) 15:38, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
While it is obvious that Jesus said he didn't want God's house used for profiteering, it is unclear on what is acceptable. Is it acceptable to use the church for political gain? If Jesus were alive today, would he like the involvement of the church in politics to the point that politicians often speak at or give "sermons" for political influence? Is this not profiting from the church? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.250.76.26 ( talk) 07:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
The money changers provided a service to the worshipers. The Roman coins had the image of the Caesar, a graven image, which was in contravention of the Torah. Changing the coins for simple coins without the graven image was necessary to maintain the holiness of the Temple. Why was 'Jesus' so incensed by this? He should have been pleased. Clearly the author of the text was not conversant with the Jewish religion and made up this story to denigrate the Jews. Just one of many inaccuracies in the Christian Bible. 'Jesus' is a myth written by liberals with a political agenda which after a few hundred years brought them to power across the globe. That power is now waning and a new mythology, a new power, that of Islam is taking over. Islam rejects the divinity of 'Jesus'. Islam does not rely on miracles and proof-texts for its rational. It is the inarticulate duplicitous ramblings of a war lord out to conquer the entire world! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.233.70.234 ( talk) 10:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Tyrian Money. I'm confused. The article says:
"Gentile money could not be used at the Temple because of the graven images on it." Why then was Tyrian money with an engraving of Baal on it acceptable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.194.210 ( talk) 13:43, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
That use of the Tyrian shekel for the temple tax is probably precisely what Jesus objected to with the moneychangers and it was a significant argument within Judaism at the time. The Sadduccees controlled all Tyrian shekels (not legal tender by then for anything except temple tax) and distributed them to moneychangers. The exchange rate/cost of those shekels rose over time because of both the monopoly and the debasement of Roman currency. So effectively the cost of that temple tax obligation rose over time - making it more difficult for the poor to pay it. And it is likely that the oral tradition of the aftermath of that incident (the parable of 'Render unto Caesar') involved a shekel - not a denarius - which greatly changes the meaning/importance of that parable. Render unto Baal what is Baal's and unto God what is God's is an existential challenge to the Sanhedrin. This was an issue until the Temple revolt of 70CE - and one of the first acts was the minting of a different coin for the temple tax — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.134.196.115 ( talk) 07:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
Over on reddit, several Orthodox Christians are confused by the part that says that Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea that "this is the only account of Jesus using physical force in any of the Gospels". We've added the citation needed tag to that claim, but we think that this part should be removed unless someone can find a citation for it. And if a citation is found, it should probably be reworded since we are quite sure that this is not a dogmatic teaching of the entire church, but might be a view held by some in the church.
Here is the edit that introduced this claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhknight ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
[ https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cleansing_of_the_Temple&curid=4775253&diff=712183592&oldid=711745740 some clean-up needed, at the least. Johnbod ( talk) 17:17, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
In Mark 11:15-19 Only the selling of doves.
In Matt 21:12-17 Only the selling of doves.
In Luke 19:45-48 The selling of things (unspecified)
In John 2:13-16 The selling of cattle and sheep (driven out with a whip) and doves, the most grandiose version, a common practice of this author. Only in the Gospel of John (John 18:3) do soldiers help to carry out the arrest of Jesus.
An analysis and response from the Association of Ancient Historians according to Brian Messner, Professor of History and Interdisciplinary Studies, Lincoln Christian University: "Animals would have been kept away from the temple building itself. In thinking back to the temples I've visited I can't think of a single one that had an animal pen inside the temenos (sacred boundary line) of the temple, so clearly the animals were kept elsewhere. The Temple in Jerusalem was a large complex of course, and while there is no evidence that animals would have been kept in the main building at the center of the complex, the Gospel accounts do suggest that they were in housed in one or more of the courts surrounding/leading up to the main Temple building. So, that would indeed be different than the typical Greco-Roman practice." Jesus's actions and anger are described as taking place in the court yard, not inside the temple itself. His anger and actions are centered on the selling of living creatures. Miistermagico ( talk) 18:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14303-temple-administration-and-service-of
https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/265167/bird-sacrifice-daf-yomi-244 Miistermagico ( talk) 20:05, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Article says:
"Do not ...", addressing the reader, is not encyclopaedic in style. The second part, changed in recent edit, is just strange - sentiments do not "attempt" anything, and the semicolon is spurious. I'm not sure what it should say, though, so I'll leave it to others to fix it. But please take a look!-- Nø ( talk) 09:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
The article purports to give Alexis-Baker's "history of the interpretation", but in fact includes only those elements portraying Christians in a bad light, as violent and blood-thirsty, and missing out any reference to Christian pacificism. Note that his paper says "The temple incident has been a popular episode in Jesus’ ministry from which Christians since Augustine have drawn to justify Christian violence ranging from punishing schismatics and heretics to justifying war and the death penalty. However, another tradition of reading this passage nonviolently began well before Augustine." [1] The section should be re-written to be balanced, rather than an anti-Christian polemic. 2A00:23C8:3B10:F901:DF0:C254:EF29:A162 ( talk) 14:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)Ian Hampson, Wales, October 2021 2A00:23C8:3B10:F901:DF0:C254:EF29:A162 ( talk) 14:08, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
References
Perhaps there can be an added "Historicity" section or the following notions added under "Analysis":
This is from Bart Ehrman's blog and similar points are made in the Jesus Seminar-related book, The Acts of Jesus:
'In our first account, Mark’s, Jesus actually shuts down the operation of the entire temple. The problem with using this as evidence for the historical Jesus himself is that, as critical scholars have long argued, Mark’s account simply cannot be accurate, in a literal sense, but is at best massively exaggerated. How could it be right that Jesus not only overturned the moneychangers’ tables and drove out those selling sacrificial animals, but also shut down the entire Temple cult?
'The Temple precincts were *enormous*. Within the walls of the Temple you could fit 25 American football fields. How exactly did Jesus stop all the activities in the Temple? Are we to imagine that Jesus pulled this off by himself? (Aslan indicates that his disciples were helping pull it off – but that’s not what any of our sources indicate.) Moreover, it is important to note this time of year — during the Passover Festival — is precisely when the Roman prefect Pilate came to Jerusalem with troops that he stationed at pressure points — most especially the temple (as we know from the historian Josephus) in order to squash any unrest of any kind. If Jesus had caused this kind of ruckus he would have been arrested on the spot. Are we supposed to think he simply vanished into thin air?
'True, it is almost certain that something happened at the Temple. But what was it?...'
Speculations that follow are available to his blog subscribers. I am one but forgot my password and the site is so far not e-mailing me the code to change my password. M.mk ( talk) 18:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Yup,