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The words advancement and progress are very prominent in the first few paragraphs. These imply directionality. Use of these words and directionality is opposed by many anthropologists. I will change these to better convey what "characteristics" informally are called civilization. Please explain any disagreements if it is deemed necessary to undo my changes.
According to historians: "Feudal civilization" See the books results: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22feudal+civilization%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=djCJVr-8OMLzPYP4jsAK#q=%22feudal+civilization%22&tbm=bks
The section refers to Europeans encountering peoples in the Neolithic and Mesolithic stage during the European "Age of Discovery", however the linked article states that "Neolithic" is not generally used for Australian or North and South American peoples. The cited source's date is given as 2014, but after some investigation, I have discovered that this only refers to the date it was archived, and the source itself is over 50 years old (from 1970). — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerytonMango ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
PerytonMango and Maxaxax, both of you expressed opposition to a particular sentence in § History:
In the European Age of Discovery, emerging Modernity was put into stark contrast with the Neolithic and Mesolithic stage of the cultures of many of the peoples they encountered.
I agree with you two, and so I removed the problematic sentence. Soon after it was re-added by Doug Weller without explanation. Doug Weller, could you explain why you believe that this sentence is appropriate? — Freoh 23:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Stone Age? The introduction to that article says that the Stone Age
ended between 4,000 BC and 2,000 BC, so I don't think so. I agree with both PerytonMango's and Maxaxax's criticisms, though you're right that they're critiquing different things. — Freoh 01:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
conservatives:
One reason we find it so difficult to reconstruct the history of these democratic sensibilities, and the everyday forms of organization and decision making they inspired, is that we are used to telling the story in a very peculiar way. It's a story that only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new: the expression would have been meaningless in the time of Washington or Jefferson. According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives, and is largely taken for granted by everyone else, democracy is really a set of institutional structures, based on voting, that was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition that traveled from Greece to Rome to medieval England, making a detour through Renaissance Italy, and then finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home. This formulation is how former cold warriors like Samuel Huntington can argue that we are now engaged in a "war of civilizations," with the free and democratic West vainly trying to inflict its values on everyone else. As an historical argument, this is an obvious example of special pleading. The whole story makes no sense. First of all, about the only thing Voltaire, Madison, or Gladstone really had in common with an inhabitant of ancient Greece is that he grew up reading ancient Greek books. But if the Western tradition is simply an intellectual tradition, how can one possibly call it democratic? In fact, not a single surviving ancient Greek author was in favor of democracy, and for 2,400 years at least, virtually every author now identied with "Western civilization" was explicitly antidemocratic. When someone has the temerity to point this out, the usual response by conservatives is to switch gears and say that "the West" is a cultural tradition, whose unique love of liberty can already be witnessed in medieval documents like the Magna Carta and was just waiting to burst out in the Age of Revolutions. This makes a little better sense. If nothing else, it would explain the popular enthusiasm for democracy in countries like the United States and France, even in the face of universal elite disapproval. But, if one takes that approach, and says "the West" is really a deep cultural tradition, then other parts of the conventional story fall apart. For one thing, how can one say that the Western tradition begins in Greece? After all, if we're speaking in cultural terms, the people alive today most similar to ancient Greeks are obviously modern Greeks. Yet most of those who celebrate the "Western tradition" don't even think modern Greece is part of the West anymore—Greece apparently having defected back around A.D. 600 when they chose the wrong variety of Christianity.
oversimplification). It is open to interpretation, and some of those interpretations are controversial. Unless we're providing an in-text attribution, we should keep the content specific and uncontroversial. — Freoh 16:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Current | Proposal |
---|---|
The Acropolis of Athens: Greece is widely referred to attribution needed as the cradle of Western civilization and the birthplace of democracy. [1] [2] | The
Acropolis of Athens – many Westerners describe
Greece as the
cradle of
Western civilization and the
birthplace of democracy.
[1]
[2] |
you Japanese people, and I don't know the answer to your question. My point is that this "Western civilization" narrative is a relatively recent product of Western culture and is not universally accepted. My proposal was my attempt at clarifying this, but I'd like to see your alternative proposal if you have one. — Freoh 20:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
If something is argued about
, isn't it controversial by definition? What makes you say that my source presents a minority opinion
? —
Freoh
21:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
References
Ancient Greek Athenai, historic city and capital of Greece. Many of classical civilization's intellectual and artistic ideas originated there, and the city is generally considered to be the birthplace of Western civilization
Greece is a picturesque country on the southern tip of the Balkan Peninsula straddling the always-blue Agean, Ionian and Adriatic Seas. Considered by many to be the cradle of Western Civilization and the birthplace of democracy, her ancient past has long been the source and inspiration of Western thought.
One reason we find it so difficult to reconstruct the history of these democratic sensibilities, and the everyday forms of organization and decision making they inspired, is that we are used to telling the story in a very peculiar way. It's a story that only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new: the expression would have been meaningless in the time of Washington or Jefferson. According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives, and is largely taken for granted by everyone else, democracy is really a set of institutional structures, based on voting, that was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition that traveled from Greece to Rome to medieval England, making a detour through Renaissance Italy, and then finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home.
[One narrative of the history of democracy] only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new ... According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives ... democracy ... was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition ... finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home.
Question: have we reached a consensus that we should delete the first paragraph in
§ History? —
Freoh
16:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
A recent
by
109.93.182.214 (
talk ·
contribs ·
WHOIS) removed some context about
Samuel P. Huntington. This is in
§ Future, but it's describing speculation from the 1990s about the 21st century, which we're already almost a quarter of the way through. The justification is that this is Argued and pretty active concept now also
, but I think that if this is the case then we should
prefer recent sources, especially when we're talking about the 21st century. —
Freoh
02:02, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Civilization article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
Index,
1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
![]() | This page is not a forum for general discussion about Civilization. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Civilization at the Reference desk. |
![]() | World civilisations was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 30 November 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Civilization. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
The words advancement and progress are very prominent in the first few paragraphs. These imply directionality. Use of these words and directionality is opposed by many anthropologists. I will change these to better convey what "characteristics" informally are called civilization. Please explain any disagreements if it is deemed necessary to undo my changes.
According to historians: "Feudal civilization" See the books results: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22feudal+civilization%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=djCJVr-8OMLzPYP4jsAK#q=%22feudal+civilization%22&tbm=bks
The section refers to Europeans encountering peoples in the Neolithic and Mesolithic stage during the European "Age of Discovery", however the linked article states that "Neolithic" is not generally used for Australian or North and South American peoples. The cited source's date is given as 2014, but after some investigation, I have discovered that this only refers to the date it was archived, and the source itself is over 50 years old (from 1970). — Preceding unsigned comment added by PerytonMango ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
PerytonMango and Maxaxax, both of you expressed opposition to a particular sentence in § History:
In the European Age of Discovery, emerging Modernity was put into stark contrast with the Neolithic and Mesolithic stage of the cultures of many of the peoples they encountered.
I agree with you two, and so I removed the problematic sentence. Soon after it was re-added by Doug Weller without explanation. Doug Weller, could you explain why you believe that this sentence is appropriate? — Freoh 23:14, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Stone Age? The introduction to that article says that the Stone Age
ended between 4,000 BC and 2,000 BC, so I don't think so. I agree with both PerytonMango's and Maxaxax's criticisms, though you're right that they're critiquing different things. — Freoh 01:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
conservatives:
One reason we find it so difficult to reconstruct the history of these democratic sensibilities, and the everyday forms of organization and decision making they inspired, is that we are used to telling the story in a very peculiar way. It's a story that only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new: the expression would have been meaningless in the time of Washington or Jefferson. According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives, and is largely taken for granted by everyone else, democracy is really a set of institutional structures, based on voting, that was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition that traveled from Greece to Rome to medieval England, making a detour through Renaissance Italy, and then finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home. This formulation is how former cold warriors like Samuel Huntington can argue that we are now engaged in a "war of civilizations," with the free and democratic West vainly trying to inflict its values on everyone else. As an historical argument, this is an obvious example of special pleading. The whole story makes no sense. First of all, about the only thing Voltaire, Madison, or Gladstone really had in common with an inhabitant of ancient Greece is that he grew up reading ancient Greek books. But if the Western tradition is simply an intellectual tradition, how can one possibly call it democratic? In fact, not a single surviving ancient Greek author was in favor of democracy, and for 2,400 years at least, virtually every author now identied with "Western civilization" was explicitly antidemocratic. When someone has the temerity to point this out, the usual response by conservatives is to switch gears and say that "the West" is a cultural tradition, whose unique love of liberty can already be witnessed in medieval documents like the Magna Carta and was just waiting to burst out in the Age of Revolutions. This makes a little better sense. If nothing else, it would explain the popular enthusiasm for democracy in countries like the United States and France, even in the face of universal elite disapproval. But, if one takes that approach, and says "the West" is really a deep cultural tradition, then other parts of the conventional story fall apart. For one thing, how can one say that the Western tradition begins in Greece? After all, if we're speaking in cultural terms, the people alive today most similar to ancient Greeks are obviously modern Greeks. Yet most of those who celebrate the "Western tradition" don't even think modern Greece is part of the West anymore—Greece apparently having defected back around A.D. 600 when they chose the wrong variety of Christianity.
oversimplification). It is open to interpretation, and some of those interpretations are controversial. Unless we're providing an in-text attribution, we should keep the content specific and uncontroversial. — Freoh 16:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
Current | Proposal |
---|---|
The Acropolis of Athens: Greece is widely referred to attribution needed as the cradle of Western civilization and the birthplace of democracy. [1] [2] | The
Acropolis of Athens – many Westerners describe
Greece as the
cradle of
Western civilization and the
birthplace of democracy.
[1]
[2] |
you Japanese people, and I don't know the answer to your question. My point is that this "Western civilization" narrative is a relatively recent product of Western culture and is not universally accepted. My proposal was my attempt at clarifying this, but I'd like to see your alternative proposal if you have one. — Freoh 20:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
If something is argued about
, isn't it controversial by definition? What makes you say that my source presents a minority opinion
? —
Freoh
21:19, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
References
Ancient Greek Athenai, historic city and capital of Greece. Many of classical civilization's intellectual and artistic ideas originated there, and the city is generally considered to be the birthplace of Western civilization
Greece is a picturesque country on the southern tip of the Balkan Peninsula straddling the always-blue Agean, Ionian and Adriatic Seas. Considered by many to be the cradle of Western Civilization and the birthplace of democracy, her ancient past has long been the source and inspiration of Western thought.
One reason we find it so difficult to reconstruct the history of these democratic sensibilities, and the everyday forms of organization and decision making they inspired, is that we are used to telling the story in a very peculiar way. It's a story that only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new: the expression would have been meaningless in the time of Washington or Jefferson. According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives, and is largely taken for granted by everyone else, democracy is really a set of institutional structures, based on voting, that was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition that traveled from Greece to Rome to medieval England, making a detour through Renaissance Italy, and then finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home.
[One narrative of the history of democracy] only really took shape in the wake of World War I, when universities in the United States and some parts of Europe began promulgating the notion that democracy was an intrinsic part of what they called "Western civilization." The idea that there even was something called "Western civilization" was, at the time, relatively new ... According to this new version of history, which soon became gospel to American conservatives ... democracy ... was first "invented" in ancient Athens and has remained somehow embedded in a grand tradition ... finally lodging itself in the North Atlantic, which is now its special home.
Question: have we reached a consensus that we should delete the first paragraph in
§ History? —
Freoh
16:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
A recent
by
109.93.182.214 (
talk ·
contribs ·
WHOIS) removed some context about
Samuel P. Huntington. This is in
§ Future, but it's describing speculation from the 1990s about the 21st century, which we're already almost a quarter of the way through. The justification is that this is Argued and pretty active concept now also
, but I think that if this is the case then we should
prefer recent sources, especially when we're talking about the 21st century. —
Freoh
02:02, 26 January 2023 (UTC)