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In view of Charles Manson's skin color, obviously if Colonel Scott was his biological father, he cannot possibly have been black. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.234.245 ( talk) 03:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
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Please edit the quote within the excerpt below (which is presented as a direct quote from a 1951 document) so it reflects the actual language of used. The original document used the term "colored" instead of "African American." It's extremely misleading as is. If you insist on keeping "African American" please place it within brackets to indicate the edit. Nobody used that term at the time. The original document can easily be found online. Thanks.
These include the first two sentences of his family background section, which read: "Father: unknown. He is alleged to have been an African American cook by the name of Scott, with whom Charles's mother had been promiscuous at the time of pregnancy."
Sbgleason (
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05:51, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Crime is his "profession'? Presuming music is his other vocation? Crime is now a calling, in the USA, something you write on a census form under "Occupation"? 118.211.195.218 ( talk) 08:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Cultural Reverberation:
Here is an example of hypocrisy and calumny all in one: "Within months of the Tate–LaBianca arrests, Manson was embraced by underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture." So, when the liks of Time Magazine or National Review feature Charles Manson on their covers or in their pages it's "reporting," but when so-called "counterculture" (i.e., any journal that opposes or defies the conservative ideologies, styles, and rituals of the likes of Time or National Review) do the same, it's an "embrace by underground newspapers." Yeah. As I stated, this is a classic case of hypocrisy (double standards) and calumny (the transparent slander of an entire multi-hued Left-leaning cultural revolution). CHANGE this offending and offensive passage, as it neither meets the baseline of academic standards nor wiki's supposed ideological "neutrality." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:D132:F00:214:51FF:FEE6:3765 ( talk) 21:00, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I would add some of this commentary to the article, as an example of the paranoid lefty delusional mindset of which Manson was only an extreme example. It might help people understand how anyone could come close to sympathising with this.
As I recall, the 'Berkley Tribe' was enthusiastic about Manson, as was an indie paper in San Diego whose name escapes me. Some research should show there was more support for Manson amongst such people than the OP will admit - or like. 2.31.38.227 ( talk) 18:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I have seen reports that Sharon Tate's death certificate runs to several pages, but only the first page is available for viewing. Apparently something grotesque was done involving her unborn child, is there any confirmation of this? It could be a research point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.38.227 ( talk) 18:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
The article presents a dense collection of facts, sometimes going into minute detail. I think it would be more readable and informative if it gave an overview of what had happened.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
The reference to Bernardine Dohrn, taken from a newspaper article from 1981, seems primarily designed to blacken her name. According to her husband, Bill Ayers, the attributed comment was taken out of context and misconstrued.
Similarly, the article refers to Tuesday's Child (newspaper), a newspaper that was only published for six months.
These references seem primarily designed to discredit the New Left/ counterculture/ hippie movement rather than actually shed any light on the topic. Did the Weather Underground support the murder of rich, white civilians? No, they didn't. Did most supporters of the peace movement support Charles Manson? No, they didn't.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 12:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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It's a minor point, I know, but the article mentions he was a drummer and yet drums are not included on the list of instruments. If this were a very minor thing (in the way that some musicians can play Harmonica, but it's not their main instrument) I could understand. Manson was, however, a founding member of the Beach Boys as a drummer, and that seems more significant, in the current article, than his vocal or guitar work. I'm sure I am missing something, I'm new here so I'm quite happy to let more experienced editors correct me if I'm wrong. I can't edit the article anyway so I thought I would suggest this, if someone wanted to make the edit. No problem if not. Sorry if I've done something wrong here. Still getting to grips with everything. -- ClydeGhost ( talk) 12:28, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Hey y'all, did any of you notice that the first time Charles Manson marked his forehead it was the shape of an X before it became a swastika? X is the symbol of Christ, while the swastika can be considered a symbol of pagan religions (simply other religions) like the religions of India, most notably Hindu and Hindu dogma. Storm Machinine ( talk) 04:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Just read a news article that he has been found dead in his cell. http://theracketreport.com/charles-manson-found-dead-at-age-80/ Oddly ive seen other articles that claim this happened earlier this year around may. -- Nzoomed ( talk) 21:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
This article should be cleaned up with {{ref=harv}} and {{sfn|||}} templates.-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 22:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm curious if there is any info on what kind of psychiatric diagnosis's Manson has been given. I'm assuming he has been treated extensively throughout his time in prison. I think it would make a very good addition to the article if someone knows. He is a very notable pathological subject — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 ( talk) 19:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
At the recent AfD discussions about Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, Steven Parent and Wojciech Frykowski, it was suggested that the Tate murders should be split off from this article into a separate article Tate murders. I agree. Those particular five murders were so notorious, and have been written about in such detail, that they overwhelm this article, even though they don't contain all the information they should - for example, there should be a little more information about each victim. The Abigail Folger article was redirected to this page per the AfD closure, but even though the recommendation was to "merge", no merging of any of the information about her was done. This article is just too bloated, there isn't room for it. If there is support for a new article, I am willing to create it, with help and input from other editors here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I totally agree. The Tate murders received huge media coverage BEFORE the LAPD even considered Manson and his gang as the suspects. The murders also involve NUMEROUS people: Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Steven Parent, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Linda Kasabian... all of whom arguably play a bigger role in the event than Manson himself. Yet the main article on the murders are on his page? Manson's article is already very long, like you suggested above, this section overwhelms his article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.205.98 ( talk) 01:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
His name is hardly even mentioned AT ALL in the "Family Crimes" sub-section on this page. It probably shouldn't even be on his page at all, but linked to another separate article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aloud212 ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I think all the text located between "Manson Family" and "Trials" should be moved to Manson Family and replaced with a two or three-paragraph summary of the Family, crimes, and conviction. Some sections under "Aftermath" should be moved as well, but others ought to stay, like "Interviews" and some statements in "Later events".-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 01:37, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
It appears that there is a general concensus for splitting the Tate murders. I will move the content but won't seamlessly at this time. I not the wikipedia isn't perfect, and this may take some time to smooth over. 110.175.158.17 ( talk) 07:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
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After 14 years the page 2violent.com has gone offline; the new site is charlesmanson.com. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.255.133 ( talk) 04:12, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
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Case of Jane Doe # 59
− In November 16, 1969 the body of a unknown female murder victium was found Mulholand Drive, Los Angeles; the victium had been stabbed 150 times.
− In April 2016 the identity of the victium was determined-she was identified as Reet Jurvetson of Montreal Canada.
− It is speculated she was a "Manson family" victium. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.169.142 ( talk) 22:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
References
There has recently been some disagreement over whether to include the "musical artist infobox" in this article, with the complaint that it isn't "sourced". Not sourced? The text has a whole section about his musical career, supported by 16 references. If he isn't in some sense a musician, why do we have an article called Charles Manson discography? The music infobox has been restored and I hope it stays. However, I do agree that describing him as a "criminal and musician" is overkill; that's not what he is known for or why he has an article at Wikipedia. IMO the lead sentence should say "criminal", period, as it does now. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Masta_Ace:Slaughtahouse
Mess around with the black charles manson
Jidanni ( talk) 05:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
There was more or less a consensus that Manson Family should be its own article, along with the promise that this would be carried out, but nobody has done it yet. I think the citation style on the article needs to be sorted out first (replacing {{ Rp}} with {{ sfn}} and {{ harv}}).-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 20:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
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I've attempted to do a summary of the Manson Family crimes, using sources from other Wikipedia pages. I cribbed a decent amount from other articles, but tried to shorten things without leaving out anything important. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so I welcome feedback from those more experienced! this name is also in use 22:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
This article is a perennial target for vandals. It has been under PC protection for the past several years, but PC has often been insufficient, with semi-protection needed multiple times. I added semi-protection last week, and as soon as it expired, vandalism resumed. The main rationale for using PC instead of semi is to allow constructive contributions by new editors, but looking back through recent history, I don't see anything constructive from new editors - just inappropriate edits which then have to be reverted by someone. The log of all the various protections that have been imposed is almost as long as the article. I have concluded that this article is not well served by short-term or PC protection. I am going to convert it to indefinite semi-protection. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:27, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if Empire News is RS: but this is what they're reporting. freshacconci talk to me 19:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Having listed and/or summarized statements that
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says he was sent to a juvenile center in Indianapolis, I think they are referring to his time at Gibault, which is in Terre Haute, Indiana. From there he went to the School for Boys in Plainfield. He did a couple nights in Hamilton Co. jail, which is near Indianapolis but by no means Indy. I don't belive he ever did any youth time in Indianapolis or Marion Co. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/history/retroindy/2014/01/14/charles-manson/4471927/ Not much of an editor but if I can figure out how to change and cite it I will, if not there is the source if it meets the standards for someone else to do it. 184.60.42.123 ( talk) 04:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I feel that mansondirect.com should be listed as his official site. The one that had been linked, charlesmanson.com, is sensational and anti-Charles Manson, clearly not making it his official site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitzi777 ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Official site. Based on facts. Photo should be updated to most recent prison photo release this month. Fishnagles ( talk) 20:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Lately there has been some edit warring about whether to add "convicted mass murderer" to his definition as a criminal and former cult leader. Those who want to add it point out that he actually was convicted of murder; those who want to remove it point out that he didn't actually kill the people himself. Let's work it out here.
According to our article
Mass murder, The FBI defines mass murder as murdering four or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location where one or more people kill several others.
Based on that definition, the five killings at the Tate/Polanski residence were a mass murder. Was Manson one of the murderers? In American jurisprudence, someone who conspires to commit murder is equally guilty of murder even if they don't carry out the actual killing. For example, a person who pays another person to commit the murder is also a murderer under law. Under common (as opposed to legal) usage, possibly not. So we need to discuss whether we should identify him as a "mass murderer" or not. And please discuss here, don't edit-war and revert each other. --
MelanieN (
talk)
21:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
It's not Charles Manson, it's Adolf Hitler. Am I wrong ? Cheers ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.106.10.160 ( talk) 02:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
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In view of Charles Manson's skin color, obviously if Colonel Scott was his biological father, he cannot possibly have been black. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.233.234.245 ( talk) 03:43, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
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Please edit the quote within the excerpt below (which is presented as a direct quote from a 1951 document) so it reflects the actual language of used. The original document used the term "colored" instead of "African American." It's extremely misleading as is. If you insist on keeping "African American" please place it within brackets to indicate the edit. Nobody used that term at the time. The original document can easily be found online. Thanks.
These include the first two sentences of his family background section, which read: "Father: unknown. He is alleged to have been an African American cook by the name of Scott, with whom Charles's mother had been promiscuous at the time of pregnancy."
Sbgleason (
talk)
05:51, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Crime is his "profession'? Presuming music is his other vocation? Crime is now a calling, in the USA, something you write on a census form under "Occupation"? 118.211.195.218 ( talk) 08:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Cultural Reverberation:
Here is an example of hypocrisy and calumny all in one: "Within months of the Tate–LaBianca arrests, Manson was embraced by underground newspapers of the 1960s counterculture." So, when the liks of Time Magazine or National Review feature Charles Manson on their covers or in their pages it's "reporting," but when so-called "counterculture" (i.e., any journal that opposes or defies the conservative ideologies, styles, and rituals of the likes of Time or National Review) do the same, it's an "embrace by underground newspapers." Yeah. As I stated, this is a classic case of hypocrisy (double standards) and calumny (the transparent slander of an entire multi-hued Left-leaning cultural revolution). CHANGE this offending and offensive passage, as it neither meets the baseline of academic standards nor wiki's supposed ideological "neutrality." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:D132:F00:214:51FF:FEE6:3765 ( talk) 21:00, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
I would add some of this commentary to the article, as an example of the paranoid lefty delusional mindset of which Manson was only an extreme example. It might help people understand how anyone could come close to sympathising with this.
As I recall, the 'Berkley Tribe' was enthusiastic about Manson, as was an indie paper in San Diego whose name escapes me. Some research should show there was more support for Manson amongst such people than the OP will admit - or like. 2.31.38.227 ( talk) 18:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
I have seen reports that Sharon Tate's death certificate runs to several pages, but only the first page is available for viewing. Apparently something grotesque was done involving her unborn child, is there any confirmation of this? It could be a research point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.38.227 ( talk) 18:57, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
The article presents a dense collection of facts, sometimes going into minute detail. I think it would be more readable and informative if it gave an overview of what had happened.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:19, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
The reference to Bernardine Dohrn, taken from a newspaper article from 1981, seems primarily designed to blacken her name. According to her husband, Bill Ayers, the attributed comment was taken out of context and misconstrued.
Similarly, the article refers to Tuesday's Child (newspaper), a newspaper that was only published for six months.
These references seem primarily designed to discredit the New Left/ counterculture/ hippie movement rather than actually shed any light on the topic. Did the Weather Underground support the murder of rich, white civilians? No, they didn't. Did most supporters of the peace movement support Charles Manson? No, they didn't.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 12:13, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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It's a minor point, I know, but the article mentions he was a drummer and yet drums are not included on the list of instruments. If this were a very minor thing (in the way that some musicians can play Harmonica, but it's not their main instrument) I could understand. Manson was, however, a founding member of the Beach Boys as a drummer, and that seems more significant, in the current article, than his vocal or guitar work. I'm sure I am missing something, I'm new here so I'm quite happy to let more experienced editors correct me if I'm wrong. I can't edit the article anyway so I thought I would suggest this, if someone wanted to make the edit. No problem if not. Sorry if I've done something wrong here. Still getting to grips with everything. -- ClydeGhost ( talk) 12:28, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Hey y'all, did any of you notice that the first time Charles Manson marked his forehead it was the shape of an X before it became a swastika? X is the symbol of Christ, while the swastika can be considered a symbol of pagan religions (simply other religions) like the religions of India, most notably Hindu and Hindu dogma. Storm Machinine ( talk) 04:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Just read a news article that he has been found dead in his cell. http://theracketreport.com/charles-manson-found-dead-at-age-80/ Oddly ive seen other articles that claim this happened earlier this year around may. -- Nzoomed ( talk) 21:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
This article should be cleaned up with {{ref=harv}} and {{sfn|||}} templates.-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 22:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm curious if there is any info on what kind of psychiatric diagnosis's Manson has been given. I'm assuming he has been treated extensively throughout his time in prison. I think it would make a very good addition to the article if someone knows. He is a very notable pathological subject — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.207.135.183 ( talk) 19:35, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
At the recent AfD discussions about Abigail Folger, Jay Sebring, Steven Parent and Wojciech Frykowski, it was suggested that the Tate murders should be split off from this article into a separate article Tate murders. I agree. Those particular five murders were so notorious, and have been written about in such detail, that they overwhelm this article, even though they don't contain all the information they should - for example, there should be a little more information about each victim. The Abigail Folger article was redirected to this page per the AfD closure, but even though the recommendation was to "merge", no merging of any of the information about her was done. This article is just too bloated, there isn't room for it. If there is support for a new article, I am willing to create it, with help and input from other editors here. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:11, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
I totally agree. The Tate murders received huge media coverage BEFORE the LAPD even considered Manson and his gang as the suspects. The murders also involve NUMEROUS people: Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, Wojciech Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Steven Parent, Tex Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Linda Kasabian... all of whom arguably play a bigger role in the event than Manson himself. Yet the main article on the murders are on his page? Manson's article is already very long, like you suggested above, this section overwhelms his article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.205.98 ( talk) 01:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
His name is hardly even mentioned AT ALL in the "Family Crimes" sub-section on this page. It probably shouldn't even be on his page at all, but linked to another separate article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aloud212 ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I think all the text located between "Manson Family" and "Trials" should be moved to Manson Family and replaced with a two or three-paragraph summary of the Family, crimes, and conviction. Some sections under "Aftermath" should be moved as well, but others ought to stay, like "Interviews" and some statements in "Later events".-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 01:37, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
It appears that there is a general concensus for splitting the Tate murders. I will move the content but won't seamlessly at this time. I not the wikipedia isn't perfect, and this may take some time to smooth over. 110.175.158.17 ( talk) 07:34, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
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After 14 years the page 2violent.com has gone offline; the new site is charlesmanson.com. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.255.133 ( talk) 04:12, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
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Case of Jane Doe # 59
− In November 16, 1969 the body of a unknown female murder victium was found Mulholand Drive, Los Angeles; the victium had been stabbed 150 times.
− In April 2016 the identity of the victium was determined-she was identified as Reet Jurvetson of Montreal Canada.
− It is speculated she was a "Manson family" victium. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.169.142 ( talk) 22:35, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
References
There has recently been some disagreement over whether to include the "musical artist infobox" in this article, with the complaint that it isn't "sourced". Not sourced? The text has a whole section about his musical career, supported by 16 references. If he isn't in some sense a musician, why do we have an article called Charles Manson discography? The music infobox has been restored and I hope it stays. However, I do agree that describing him as a "criminal and musician" is overkill; that's not what he is known for or why he has an article at Wikipedia. IMO the lead sentence should say "criminal", period, as it does now. -- MelanieN ( talk) 23:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Masta_Ace:Slaughtahouse
Mess around with the black charles manson
Jidanni ( talk) 05:01, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
There was more or less a consensus that Manson Family should be its own article, along with the promise that this would be carried out, but nobody has done it yet. I think the citation style on the article needs to be sorted out first (replacing {{ Rp}} with {{ sfn}} and {{ harv}}).-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 20:00, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
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I've attempted to do a summary of the Manson Family crimes, using sources from other Wikipedia pages. I cribbed a decent amount from other articles, but tried to shorten things without leaving out anything important. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so I welcome feedback from those more experienced! this name is also in use 22:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
This article is a perennial target for vandals. It has been under PC protection for the past several years, but PC has often been insufficient, with semi-protection needed multiple times. I added semi-protection last week, and as soon as it expired, vandalism resumed. The main rationale for using PC instead of semi is to allow constructive contributions by new editors, but looking back through recent history, I don't see anything constructive from new editors - just inappropriate edits which then have to be reverted by someone. The log of all the various protections that have been imposed is almost as long as the article. I have concluded that this article is not well served by short-term or PC protection. I am going to convert it to indefinite semi-protection. -- MelanieN ( talk) 17:27, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if Empire News is RS: but this is what they're reporting. freshacconci talk to me 19:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Having listed and/or summarized statements that
Vincent Bugliosi had made to Curt Gentry in Helter Skelter in the most recent edit of its text, but having had to ask "Where?" these were in the book itself out of personal ignorance of their placements in the said book, sounds a call for other Wikipedians to fill in the said missing references; please use the most recent edition of Helter Skelter as the source for these. Those Wikipedians who can do so are thanked in advance.
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says he was sent to a juvenile center in Indianapolis, I think they are referring to his time at Gibault, which is in Terre Haute, Indiana. From there he went to the School for Boys in Plainfield. He did a couple nights in Hamilton Co. jail, which is near Indianapolis but by no means Indy. I don't belive he ever did any youth time in Indianapolis or Marion Co. http://www.indystar.com/story/news/history/retroindy/2014/01/14/charles-manson/4471927/ Not much of an editor but if I can figure out how to change and cite it I will, if not there is the source if it meets the standards for someone else to do it. 184.60.42.123 ( talk) 04:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
I feel that mansondirect.com should be listed as his official site. The one that had been linked, charlesmanson.com, is sensational and anti-Charles Manson, clearly not making it his official site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitzi777 ( talk • contribs) 19:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
Official site. Based on facts. Photo should be updated to most recent prison photo release this month. Fishnagles ( talk) 20:56, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Lately there has been some edit warring about whether to add "convicted mass murderer" to his definition as a criminal and former cult leader. Those who want to add it point out that he actually was convicted of murder; those who want to remove it point out that he didn't actually kill the people himself. Let's work it out here.
According to our article
Mass murder, The FBI defines mass murder as murdering four or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders. A mass murder typically occurs in a single location where one or more people kill several others.
Based on that definition, the five killings at the Tate/Polanski residence were a mass murder. Was Manson one of the murderers? In American jurisprudence, someone who conspires to commit murder is equally guilty of murder even if they don't carry out the actual killing. For example, a person who pays another person to commit the murder is also a murderer under law. Under common (as opposed to legal) usage, possibly not. So we need to discuss whether we should identify him as a "mass murderer" or not. And please discuss here, don't edit-war and revert each other. --
MelanieN (
talk)
21:38, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
It's not Charles Manson, it's Adolf Hitler. Am I wrong ? Cheers ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.106.10.160 ( talk) 02:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)