![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is this confined to politics only? Why not to e.g. religion? Andries 19:47, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have removed Stalin who came to power via tricks in the Communist party, not because he was so popular, and was more a bureaucrat and reigned by fear and was obeyed. Later he created a personality cult but that doesn't make him a charismatic leader. Lenin would be a better example.
Andries 18:39, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
==Charismatic authority in religion==
If we have Charismatic authority in politics section, why not have religious? Lots of prophets fit into charismatic authority type (if not all), right? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:22, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Heading text ==
I read somewhere that charismatic leasers only happen to be charismatic because of special social and historical circumstances. Not always in the first place because of their personal traits. I do not have an English referenced source for this but if somebody can find a reference then I would appreciate it if this included in the article because I believe it to be true. E.g. Hitler was charismatic only because of very special circumstances i.e. humiliating, unexpected defeat in WWI, period of hyperinflation that ruined people's savings, Versailles treaty etc. Not only because he was eloquent. Andries 22:35, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Including such persons such as Jim Jones and the saint Sai Baba nicely illustrates the diversity of the charismatic leaders. Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Basically, I object to this arbitrary taxonomy. These lists need to either go away or be seriously cleaned up. -- Zappaz 05:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This was referred to my Desk, and so I've started to edit it. I felt that the text was sufficiently disorganized enough to warrant a major re-write, but I would love opinions. I just finished the first version, and I'm going to go over the examples list and tune that up as well, next. Cheers! Khamsin 01:09, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Are pythagoras and plato really charismatic religious leaders? I have my doubts. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I created a category category:charismatic religious leaders for two reasons. First there is no category religious founders because there is always controversy who created the religion: the messiah or one of his prominent followers, as the case of Jesus and Paul illustrates. For this reason the category religious founder had been deleted. The second reason was because the category:new religious movements was becoming too large and messy. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber died in 1920, how come the article reads as if speaks of "cults' and new religions? ≈ jossi ≈ 16:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There is a lot of material in this article that is unreferrenced. If it is from Weber's writings, it needs to be stated. If it is by someone else, it needs to be stated. I have added a cleanup tag. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber defined charisma as "an exceptional quality in an individual who, through appearing to possess supernatural, providential, or extraordinary powers succeeds in gathering disciples about him" Weber The sociology of religion Boston Beacon Press 1963, cited in Charisma: A psychoanalytic look at mass society Irvine Schiffer (New York Free Press 1973), 3 and in Madelein Landau Tobia and Janja Lalich Captive Hears captive minds:freedom and recovery from cults and abusive relationships. Publishers group West 1993 Andries 21:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
For discussion of the proposed merge with Max Weber, please see Talk:Max Weber#Mergers by User:Jossifresco.
Please note that Schnabel was not making an assertion about Elan Vital or the current situation. He was only writing about Rawat's leadership of the DLM at that time. I had some e-mail correspondence with him about his dissertation and he emphasized that his dissertation should be seen in the context of 1982. Andries 10:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Translation of Schnabel as per the new guidelines at Wikipedia:verifiability
Andries 21:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Help with the translation of this German quote is appreciated
Sory, Andries but the grammar on this translation does not make sense: The purest examples of charismatic leadership are at this moment, still, Bhagwan and Maharaj Ji." page 101-102 "At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. From one perspective, it concerns here routinized charisma (succession), but to the followers in America and Europe this applies nevertheless hardly: they were prepared to have faith exactly in him and around Maharaj Ji a complete organisation existed which fed and reinforced that faith.. Can you please post the Dutch version and let someone translate properly? It does not make sense as is. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber died in 1920. The cite added is labeled "Weber, 1978, p.241". If you use the notation (year) on the body of an article, you need to provide the date in which Weber first published that specific assertion. It would also be useful to have the name and published of the book you are citing from. Thank you. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
What about him and other CEO's who use charisma. Cite iCon and other books.
"People associate with religion" is very vague and unnecessarily so. what dictionary says that figurehead is a pejorative word? Andries 20:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The word "inspirator" sounded a bit strange to me too, but is really an English word. (I had checked it.) merriam webster Andries 21:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does Oakes book a reference to "phsychology of charismatic leaders". Oakes book Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities is abook in which he explores the psychology of charisma and proposes his own theory on the development ofeligious prophets: the messianic and charismatic. This selective citation is, IMO unsuitable and misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The article lists:
That is incorrect. Mary McCormick Maaga call Jones "charismatic" but that is it. This article discusses Charismatic authority as per Webber's definition (and as specified in the intro to this article), and not Charisma that is a different definition. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Same applies to
Unless you find a reference tha describes this person as a charismatic authority, I will remove it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Andries. My feeling is the sections with names of people is not compliant with NPOV. If you recall, WP:NPOV declares that we have to describe competing views without asserting any one in particular and that minority points of view should not be presented as if they were the majority point of view. For this reason, inserting the name of a person on this section because one book refers them as having "charimastic authority", is presenting only that POV as if it was the consensus opinion. For this reason I am placing an NPOV warning on that section. My proposal is to delete all entries from that section unless:
IMO, the best place to present competing views about these persons, is in their own articles . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I will try again. We are breaking the nonnegotiable policy of NPOV:
IMO, the best place to discuss a subject and have the opportunity and space to present all POVs about that subject, is that subject's article. When we depart from that, and we create lists of people that we then proceed to assign a categorization (such as this list), the most reliable source would be the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the subject itself. For example, if in the Jesus article there is overwhelming support for a characterization of Jesus as a religious leader fitting Weber's characterization of charismatic authority, that in itself will denote overwhelming evidence of consensus opinion, and its inclusion in this list would be warranted. On the other hand, when we use one obscure scholar, and one citation as the reason for inclusion of one person in this list, and the article about this person does not provide a consensus of opinion about this person befitting such characterization, then we are again in violation of NPOV. Hope this clarifies it for you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
What do you want me to do? Inlude the scholars' opinions in the respective articles and only then list them here as charismatic leaders. That has already been done for Prem Rawat, Adolf Hitler, and Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 04:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
To present my argument again, in case you did not read it: the most reliable source is the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the subject itself. For example, if in the Jesus article there is overwhelming support for a characterization of Jesus as a religious leader fitting Weber's characterization of charismatic authority, that in itself will denote overwhelming evidence of consensus opinion, and its inclusion in this list would be warranted. On the other hand, when we use one obscure scholar, and one citation as the reason for inclusion of one person in this list, and the article about this person does not provide a consensus of opinion about this person befitting such characterization, then we are again in violation of NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I have not looked at this page before, though being a political philosopher (in the sense of having a doctorate in that area, not as having a vague "philosophy towards life"), I naturally am familiar with Weber's concept. But Jossi asked me to take a look at this, so I've read through the article and the above discussion.
The thing that strikes me even more than Jossi's concern (which I endorse) of providing citation of consensus support for a given name having "charsimatic authority" is just how capriciously selective the list is. In some vague sense, just about every religious and political figure might be included; or in any case, a very large percentage of them. What is special about the ones chosen for this list? It's too long to be the least necessary to illustrate the concept, but far too short to include even 1% of those plausibly listable. On the other hand, most of the politicians are much more likely in the rational-legal mode. Lenin seems like almost a perfect example of the latter, and JFK or Wilson are just regular elected presidents, with no obvious distinction from all the other US presidents (which isn't to say they don't each have some personal appeal; but you don't get elected without some).
I think most of the list, even where nominal citations exist, is more of the nature of writers using "charismatic" in its less formal non-Weberian sense. Sure, JFK was a charismatic guy... I would have loved to schmooze with him if he hadn't been killed 11 months before I was born. And Mohammad would certainly have made a very interesting dinner guest too. But saying they're charismatic in a popular sense doesn't mean that there is a body of sociologists who follow Weber's specific classificatory system, and actually debated whether so-and-so fits this category. In fact, there aren't a lot of dedicated Weberians in sociology, at least not at the level of following this much detail (lots of people are indirectly influenced), and mostly you'll only read some specific claim inasmuch as it illustrates something modestly counter-intuitive... that's not consensus, just inattention by everyone without the particular research agenda.
My opinion is that the whole list should get axed. If mentioning some of the names in paragraph text can help illustrate the general concept of the article, it's great to use them. I.e. "Wilson, in contrast with the style set by Roosevelt and Taft, ...illustrates charismatic authority... inasmuch as..." If there really is something special about Wilson that make him an example, explain to readers what it is, don't just throw up a random name that, for unspecified reasons, might be plausible as an example. Why not list all the US presidents? Seriously? I might make my own guess, but as reader I'm given no guidance in the current article. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The intro reads: The sociologist Max Weber defined charismatic authority, also called charismatic domination, or charismatic leadership...
As far as I know Weber never used "charismatic leadership". Unless references are provided for these assertions, I will remove that from the intro.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
00:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent)I have yet to see an article or book in which "charismatic authority" is referred to, that does not include Weber. The article in Wikipedia about charismatic authority is, and needs to be focused on Weber's definition, with maybe a section in which the application of these concepts by other scholars is explored. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
To me this sounds doubtful. I admit that he presents a contestable theory about two different kind of prophets though. Andries 06:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
All of which certainly argues rather strongly against such a list. If several different thinkers all mean somewhat different things by the term "charismatic authority", it's a deceptive simplification to just throw up a bunch of names as if they somehow meet some common definition. Why not just incorporate the names you find illustrative into a narrative discussion (with appropriate citations, of course) that describes why or in what respect each figure mentioned illustrates the concept? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Andries, since when a revert is a "minor edit"? Please do not do that again. Thanks. As discussed above, this list is like a sore thumb in the article. Best would be to incorporate some names that are 100% undisputed, into the narrative of the article. That is what I intend to do. As for the people in the list, these POVs of these scholars are already discussed in their respective articles, so nothing is lost. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
There are two sources for the following persons
Andries 06:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Chrissides article as evidentiary source that Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Prabhupada, is inconsistent with the article itself. Read [9]
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain this: "Sennett 1975, Berger 1963, Blau 1963, Olin 1980". Where are these sources? Or is this a copy and paste? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I removed this article from the listing of request for comments because the dispute is more or less resolved, I believe, by creating the List of charismatic leaders. Andries 16:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I see this interpretations and summary of Baker's assertions to be (a) factually innacurate and (b) not representative of her body of work.
Read the article. I would suggest we properly quote a summary of Baker's assertions rather than an narrow interpretation (e.g. the word "unreliable" is not even used once in Barker's article). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) That is what I found to be the most appropriate from her book, about this specific subject as related to Weber's concept applied to NRMs. You are welcome to augument. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
"... most leaders movements have a founder or a leader. It is often said of this person that that he or she posseses special powers or special knowledge. Followers are expected that they believe and obey this person" (translated back into English)
Andries
22:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This quote:
I cannot find it anywere. If this is a cite from a book, it needs to be from the english version and not free-form translation by an editor. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have that squared, let's look at this:
The source provided in [1] is an article in About.com. I would argue that being this an article on Weber's definition of charismatic authority, we use a good cite from Weber rather than an interpretation by an about.com. com editor for the first sentence. As for the second sentence there is no source, so it will be good to have one. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that Oakes wrote that Weber had written that they were not insane, but I have to check that. Andries 16:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The "Characteristics" section of this article is as clear as mud and has several unattributed quotes. Somebody please rewrite it. I don't have the time. Moby-Dick3000 ( talk) 03:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
The list that was originally a spin-off from this article has disappeared from Wikipedia. It was very well referenced by reputable sociological sources. If that list has no value then I think that any example in this article that has not been used by Weber himself should be deleted. Andries ( talk) 20:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I would like to add to the page with a description of the various methods of succession from charismatic leadership. I'm planning on using some of Max Weber's work in the area as my source. This should improve the page by adding content. Any objections? Jbredar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbredar ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
The note link is broken.
Clinton does not qualify -- except in popular, not Weberian -- sense for charisma. Obama might -- but the dust hasn't settled. Reagan would. Among U.S. military leaders, Pershing fits better than Marshall.
This paragraph seems a bit politically biased.
Also, consider using some non-U.S., non-Western examples.
User:Ethicsjrt 3 july 2012 (copied from article by Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 19:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC))
# [A] certain quality of an individual personality,
[diff http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Charismatic_authority&diff=next&oldid=542823873] Joshua Jonathan you reverted my edit with an edit summary of "Undid cutting up of quote and removal of wiki-makeup". Until I read your summary I didn't have a clue that part of the page was a quote of someones. Going by the fact an editor added a citation need to this part of the text, I'm not the only editor this is not clear to. Having reread the text in compare selected revisions section the with your comment in mind I see the quote markup but this is not the normal readers view.
It is not clear that part of text is a quote, who is being quoted or where it's being quoted from. This should be address by someone who know what the RS actually says. ?oygul ( talk) 13:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Charismatic authority. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Max Weber does not say that it is the longest-lasting form of authority. Rather, it is the most unstable form because it only remains as long as the people believe in this individual. Further, because of how unstable this form of authority is, the individual inevitably transgresses into another form of authority. Rational or Traditional.( 70.24.214.255 ( talk) 21:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC))
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Charismatic authority. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:03, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Please answer us 197.189.183.25 ( talk) 15:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph immediately following Weber's definition of charisma which states that "Weber does not get to the crux of what charisma is" and that it is "unscientific and impossible to measure or to manipulate" ought to be cut or moved to a later, specifically subtitled, section of the page. The idea that charisma can be operationalized in this way is missing the point of what Weber thought his types of legitimate authority, and the social sciences more broadly, should be. At the very least, this paragraph needs to include Weber's thoughts on the matter: First, that charismatic authority is an Ideal type that Weber intended to be compared to actually existing cases. Weber recognized that no case would perfectly correspond to his concepts, and thought that those differences would be analytically fruitful. (For example, the debates above about whether or not Bill Clinton and other US Presidents possess charismatic authority are testament of the concept's generatively rather than its lack of specificity.) And second, Weber's position in the Methodenstreit, as a proponent of the historical school. Edit was initially made by @ 2A02:120B:2C15:C8A0:A13F:BB99:7E24:2E83 and a similar concern was introduced by @ 46.183.103.8 but not properly addressed. I am submitting an RFC to aid in the resolution of this dispute Sandsiltloam ( talk) 21:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is this confined to politics only? Why not to e.g. religion? Andries 19:47, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have removed Stalin who came to power via tricks in the Communist party, not because he was so popular, and was more a bureaucrat and reigned by fear and was obeyed. Later he created a personality cult but that doesn't make him a charismatic leader. Lenin would be a better example.
Andries 18:39, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
==Charismatic authority in religion==
If we have Charismatic authority in politics section, why not have religious? Lots of prophets fit into charismatic authority type (if not all), right? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:22, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC) == Heading text ==
I read somewhere that charismatic leasers only happen to be charismatic because of special social and historical circumstances. Not always in the first place because of their personal traits. I do not have an English referenced source for this but if somebody can find a reference then I would appreciate it if this included in the article because I believe it to be true. E.g. Hitler was charismatic only because of very special circumstances i.e. humiliating, unexpected defeat in WWI, period of hyperinflation that ruined people's savings, Versailles treaty etc. Not only because he was eloquent. Andries 22:35, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Including such persons such as Jim Jones and the saint Sai Baba nicely illustrates the diversity of the charismatic leaders. Andries 10:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Basically, I object to this arbitrary taxonomy. These lists need to either go away or be seriously cleaned up. -- Zappaz 05:00, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This was referred to my Desk, and so I've started to edit it. I felt that the text was sufficiently disorganized enough to warrant a major re-write, but I would love opinions. I just finished the first version, and I'm going to go over the examples list and tune that up as well, next. Cheers! Khamsin 01:09, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Are pythagoras and plato really charismatic religious leaders? I have my doubts. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I created a category category:charismatic religious leaders for two reasons. First there is no category religious founders because there is always controversy who created the religion: the messiah or one of his prominent followers, as the case of Jesus and Paul illustrates. For this reason the category religious founder had been deleted. The second reason was because the category:new religious movements was becoming too large and messy. Andries 18:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber died in 1920, how come the article reads as if speaks of "cults' and new religions? ≈ jossi ≈ 16:17, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
There is a lot of material in this article that is unreferrenced. If it is from Weber's writings, it needs to be stated. If it is by someone else, it needs to be stated. I have added a cleanup tag. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ 21:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber defined charisma as "an exceptional quality in an individual who, through appearing to possess supernatural, providential, or extraordinary powers succeeds in gathering disciples about him" Weber The sociology of religion Boston Beacon Press 1963, cited in Charisma: A psychoanalytic look at mass society Irvine Schiffer (New York Free Press 1973), 3 and in Madelein Landau Tobia and Janja Lalich Captive Hears captive minds:freedom and recovery from cults and abusive relationships. Publishers group West 1993 Andries 21:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
For discussion of the proposed merge with Max Weber, please see Talk:Max Weber#Mergers by User:Jossifresco.
Please note that Schnabel was not making an assertion about Elan Vital or the current situation. He was only writing about Rawat's leadership of the DLM at that time. I had some e-mail correspondence with him about his dissertation and he emphasized that his dissertation should be seen in the context of 1982. Andries 10:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Translation of Schnabel as per the new guidelines at Wikipedia:verifiability
Andries 21:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Help with the translation of this German quote is appreciated
Sory, Andries but the grammar on this translation does not make sense: The purest examples of charismatic leadership are at this moment, still, Bhagwan and Maharaj Ji." page 101-102 "At the same time, this means however that charismatic leadership, as such, can be staged to a certain degree. Maharaj Ji is an example of this. From one perspective, it concerns here routinized charisma (succession), but to the followers in America and Europe this applies nevertheless hardly: they were prepared to have faith exactly in him and around Maharaj Ji a complete organisation existed which fed and reinforced that faith.. Can you please post the Dutch version and let someone translate properly? It does not make sense as is. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
Weber died in 1920. The cite added is labeled "Weber, 1978, p.241". If you use the notation (year) on the body of an article, you need to provide the date in which Weber first published that specific assertion. It would also be useful to have the name and published of the book you are citing from. Thank you. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 22:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
What about him and other CEO's who use charisma. Cite iCon and other books.
"People associate with religion" is very vague and unnecessarily so. what dictionary says that figurehead is a pejorative word? Andries 20:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The word "inspirator" sounded a bit strange to me too, but is really an English word. (I had checked it.) merriam webster Andries 21:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Why does Oakes book a reference to "phsychology of charismatic leaders". Oakes book Prophetic Charisma: The Psychology of Revolutionary Religious Personalities is abook in which he explores the psychology of charisma and proposes his own theory on the development ofeligious prophets: the messianic and charismatic. This selective citation is, IMO unsuitable and misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
The article lists:
That is incorrect. Mary McCormick Maaga call Jones "charismatic" but that is it. This article discusses Charismatic authority as per Webber's definition (and as specified in the intro to this article), and not Charisma that is a different definition. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:33, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Same applies to
Unless you find a reference tha describes this person as a charismatic authority, I will remove it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:49, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Andries. My feeling is the sections with names of people is not compliant with NPOV. If you recall, WP:NPOV declares that we have to describe competing views without asserting any one in particular and that minority points of view should not be presented as if they were the majority point of view. For this reason, inserting the name of a person on this section because one book refers them as having "charimastic authority", is presenting only that POV as if it was the consensus opinion. For this reason I am placing an NPOV warning on that section. My proposal is to delete all entries from that section unless:
IMO, the best place to present competing views about these persons, is in their own articles . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:24, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I will try again. We are breaking the nonnegotiable policy of NPOV:
IMO, the best place to discuss a subject and have the opportunity and space to present all POVs about that subject, is that subject's article. When we depart from that, and we create lists of people that we then proceed to assign a categorization (such as this list), the most reliable source would be the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the subject itself. For example, if in the Jesus article there is overwhelming support for a characterization of Jesus as a religious leader fitting Weber's characterization of charismatic authority, that in itself will denote overwhelming evidence of consensus opinion, and its inclusion in this list would be warranted. On the other hand, when we use one obscure scholar, and one citation as the reason for inclusion of one person in this list, and the article about this person does not provide a consensus of opinion about this person befitting such characterization, then we are again in violation of NPOV. Hope this clarifies it for you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
What do you want me to do? Inlude the scholars' opinions in the respective articles and only then list them here as charismatic leaders. That has already been done for Prem Rawat, Adolf Hitler, and Sathya Sai Baba. Andries 04:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
To present my argument again, in case you did not read it: the most reliable source is the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the subject itself. For example, if in the Jesus article there is overwhelming support for a characterization of Jesus as a religious leader fitting Weber's characterization of charismatic authority, that in itself will denote overwhelming evidence of consensus opinion, and its inclusion in this list would be warranted. On the other hand, when we use one obscure scholar, and one citation as the reason for inclusion of one person in this list, and the article about this person does not provide a consensus of opinion about this person befitting such characterization, then we are again in violation of NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I have not looked at this page before, though being a political philosopher (in the sense of having a doctorate in that area, not as having a vague "philosophy towards life"), I naturally am familiar with Weber's concept. But Jossi asked me to take a look at this, so I've read through the article and the above discussion.
The thing that strikes me even more than Jossi's concern (which I endorse) of providing citation of consensus support for a given name having "charsimatic authority" is just how capriciously selective the list is. In some vague sense, just about every religious and political figure might be included; or in any case, a very large percentage of them. What is special about the ones chosen for this list? It's too long to be the least necessary to illustrate the concept, but far too short to include even 1% of those plausibly listable. On the other hand, most of the politicians are much more likely in the rational-legal mode. Lenin seems like almost a perfect example of the latter, and JFK or Wilson are just regular elected presidents, with no obvious distinction from all the other US presidents (which isn't to say they don't each have some personal appeal; but you don't get elected without some).
I think most of the list, even where nominal citations exist, is more of the nature of writers using "charismatic" in its less formal non-Weberian sense. Sure, JFK was a charismatic guy... I would have loved to schmooze with him if he hadn't been killed 11 months before I was born. And Mohammad would certainly have made a very interesting dinner guest too. But saying they're charismatic in a popular sense doesn't mean that there is a body of sociologists who follow Weber's specific classificatory system, and actually debated whether so-and-so fits this category. In fact, there aren't a lot of dedicated Weberians in sociology, at least not at the level of following this much detail (lots of people are indirectly influenced), and mostly you'll only read some specific claim inasmuch as it illustrates something modestly counter-intuitive... that's not consensus, just inattention by everyone without the particular research agenda.
My opinion is that the whole list should get axed. If mentioning some of the names in paragraph text can help illustrate the general concept of the article, it's great to use them. I.e. "Wilson, in contrast with the style set by Roosevelt and Taft, ...illustrates charismatic authority... inasmuch as..." If there really is something special about Wilson that make him an example, explain to readers what it is, don't just throw up a random name that, for unspecified reasons, might be plausible as an example. Why not list all the US presidents? Seriously? I might make my own guess, but as reader I'm given no guidance in the current article. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 04:57, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
The intro reads: The sociologist Max Weber defined charismatic authority, also called charismatic domination, or charismatic leadership...
As far as I know Weber never used "charismatic leadership". Unless references are provided for these assertions, I will remove that from the intro.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@
00:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent)I have yet to see an article or book in which "charismatic authority" is referred to, that does not include Weber. The article in Wikipedia about charismatic authority is, and needs to be focused on Weber's definition, with maybe a section in which the application of these concepts by other scholars is explored. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
To me this sounds doubtful. I admit that he presents a contestable theory about two different kind of prophets though. Andries 06:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
All of which certainly argues rather strongly against such a list. If several different thinkers all mean somewhat different things by the term "charismatic authority", it's a deceptive simplification to just throw up a bunch of names as if they somehow meet some common definition. Why not just incorporate the names you find illustrative into a narrative discussion (with appropriate citations, of course) that describes why or in what respect each figure mentioned illustrates the concept? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 06:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Andries, since when a revert is a "minor edit"? Please do not do that again. Thanks. As discussed above, this list is like a sore thumb in the article. Best would be to incorporate some names that are 100% undisputed, into the narrative of the article. That is what I intend to do. As for the people in the list, these POVs of these scholars are already discussed in their respective articles, so nothing is lost. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
There are two sources for the following persons
Andries 06:38, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Chrissides article as evidentiary source that Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard and Prabhupada, is inconsistent with the article itself. Read [9]
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Can you explain this: "Sennett 1975, Berger 1963, Blau 1963, Olin 1980". Where are these sources? Or is this a copy and paste? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) I removed this article from the listing of request for comments because the dispute is more or less resolved, I believe, by creating the List of charismatic leaders. Andries 16:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I see this interpretations and summary of Baker's assertions to be (a) factually innacurate and (b) not representative of her body of work.
Read the article. I would suggest we properly quote a summary of Baker's assertions rather than an narrow interpretation (e.g. the word "unreliable" is not even used once in Barker's article). ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) That is what I found to be the most appropriate from her book, about this specific subject as related to Weber's concept applied to NRMs. You are welcome to augument. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
"... most leaders movements have a founder or a leader. It is often said of this person that that he or she posseses special powers or special knowledge. Followers are expected that they believe and obey this person" (translated back into English)
Andries
22:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
This quote:
I cannot find it anywere. If this is a cite from a book, it needs to be from the english version and not free-form translation by an editor. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Now that we have that squared, let's look at this:
The source provided in [1] is an article in About.com. I would argue that being this an article on Weber's definition of charismatic authority, we use a good cite from Weber rather than an interpretation by an about.com. com editor for the first sentence. As for the second sentence there is no source, so it will be good to have one. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that Oakes wrote that Weber had written that they were not insane, but I have to check that. Andries 16:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
The "Characteristics" section of this article is as clear as mud and has several unattributed quotes. Somebody please rewrite it. I don't have the time. Moby-Dick3000 ( talk) 03:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
The list that was originally a spin-off from this article has disappeared from Wikipedia. It was very well referenced by reputable sociological sources. If that list has no value then I think that any example in this article that has not been used by Weber himself should be deleted. Andries ( talk) 20:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
I would like to add to the page with a description of the various methods of succession from charismatic leadership. I'm planning on using some of Max Weber's work in the area as my source. This should improve the page by adding content. Any objections? Jbredar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbredar ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
The note link is broken.
Clinton does not qualify -- except in popular, not Weberian -- sense for charisma. Obama might -- but the dust hasn't settled. Reagan would. Among U.S. military leaders, Pershing fits better than Marshall.
This paragraph seems a bit politically biased.
Also, consider using some non-U.S., non-Western examples.
User:Ethicsjrt 3 july 2012 (copied from article by Joshua Jonathan ( talk) 19:21, 3 July 2012 (UTC))
# [A] certain quality of an individual personality,
[diff http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Charismatic_authority&diff=next&oldid=542823873] Joshua Jonathan you reverted my edit with an edit summary of "Undid cutting up of quote and removal of wiki-makeup". Until I read your summary I didn't have a clue that part of the page was a quote of someones. Going by the fact an editor added a citation need to this part of the text, I'm not the only editor this is not clear to. Having reread the text in compare selected revisions section the with your comment in mind I see the quote markup but this is not the normal readers view.
It is not clear that part of text is a quote, who is being quoted or where it's being quoted from. This should be address by someone who know what the RS actually says. ?oygul ( talk) 13:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Charismatic authority. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:46, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Max Weber does not say that it is the longest-lasting form of authority. Rather, it is the most unstable form because it only remains as long as the people believe in this individual. Further, because of how unstable this form of authority is, the individual inevitably transgresses into another form of authority. Rational or Traditional.( 70.24.214.255 ( talk) 21:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC))
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Charismatic authority. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:03, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
Please answer us 197.189.183.25 ( talk) 15:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph immediately following Weber's definition of charisma which states that "Weber does not get to the crux of what charisma is" and that it is "unscientific and impossible to measure or to manipulate" ought to be cut or moved to a later, specifically subtitled, section of the page. The idea that charisma can be operationalized in this way is missing the point of what Weber thought his types of legitimate authority, and the social sciences more broadly, should be. At the very least, this paragraph needs to include Weber's thoughts on the matter: First, that charismatic authority is an Ideal type that Weber intended to be compared to actually existing cases. Weber recognized that no case would perfectly correspond to his concepts, and thought that those differences would be analytically fruitful. (For example, the debates above about whether or not Bill Clinton and other US Presidents possess charismatic authority are testament of the concept's generatively rather than its lack of specificity.) And second, Weber's position in the Methodenstreit, as a proponent of the historical school. Edit was initially made by @ 2A02:120B:2C15:C8A0:A13F:BB99:7E24:2E83 and a similar concern was introduced by @ 46.183.103.8 but not properly addressed. I am submitting an RFC to aid in the resolution of this dispute Sandsiltloam ( talk) 21:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)