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"Later, in 1258 when groups of Albanians around Dyrrachion (Durrës) were allied with the Despot of Epirus, Michael II Doukas, there was no evidence of Albanians in Epirus" While 2 sentences before, following appears: "During this time, the earliest mention of Albanians within the region of Epirus is recorded in a Venetian document of 1210 as inhabiting the area opposite the island of Corfu" I somehow do not understand the context. I also failed verification for the first claim. AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period, hence it refers to specific Albanian groups and their movement southwards. Such a movement is indeed undocumented but Albanians were already present in the region in 1210 and as Lopasić (1992) writes:
In the south, Albanians had already started to move into Greece towards the Peloponnese and Thessaly in the thirteenth century when they fought as mercenaries of the Despot Michael II Angelos in 1268[1] which means that there's no reason to include the statement about 1258 in the article.
References
-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@
Khirurg you're always playing the victim and implying that there's a conspiracy against you when it's you who refuses to discuss and revert so that users can't revert your absurd arguments without breaching the 3-Revert-Rule.
It's onto you to seek consensus to remove content, and I evidently don't agree with it. Do you even know what "peasant woman" means? It means Bäuerin / grua fshatar in my two native languages. Here's a definition for you:
noun:
a member of a class of persons, as in Europe, Asia, and Latin America, who are small farmers or farm laborers of low social rank.
[1]
Even if peasant woman meant something that you're thinking it is it's still not a valid reason to remove it. One could simply write: In 1980, [Author] recorded that... But that's not what you're aiming for, isn't it? Ice-cold removal of content that calls for edit-warring is the standard here and I'm honestly fed up with it. I'm sure you would be very happy if I removed Kallivretakis because I don't like his choice of words. Unfortunately I don't speak Greek so I can't do that. AlexBachmann ( talk) 18:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
it describes a reality that no longer existsJust as Kallivretakis does. The vast majority of Greeks in Albania has emigrated to Greece since 1990 (Georgiou, Myria). I won't go further into this, perhaps we'll talk about that at the appropriate venue.
ridiculous threats about KallivretakisThat's not a thread, and you know that, it's just a comparison. What you're doing with him. It's funny to me that the quote you've been removing isn't valid but at the same time Kallivretakis is. That's the point. If you can't see that, I don't know what to do.
There is simply no way we are going to present a reality from 1978I will ask you again, if you have any evidence that the situation has changed. If you can give me a source that Cham Albanian is dying out in Christian Arvanite/Albanian communities in Epirus, I'll agree to put this into the past tense.
There are no large rural populations in Greece anymore. Exactly. You don't know either. Perhaps a source could help.
have long ago assimilated. Do you know what we're talking about? We are talking about the language that they speak, not about a revival of Albanian consciousness and nationalism in Christian Albanian communities in Epirus.
Some Orthodox speakers remained, but the language was not encouraged or even allowed, and by the end of the twentieth century it had virtually disappeared..... And so with spurious confidence Greek historians insist that the inscriptions prove that the Epirots of 360, given Greek names by their fathers and grandfathers at the turn of the century, prove the continuity of Greek speech in Southern Albania since their grandfathers whose names they might bear would have been living in the time of Thucydides. Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus. They have impeccable names, they speak only Greek, but their grandparents undoubtedly spoke Albanian.) The language has disappeared. And this was in 2002, nowadays the situation would be even more extreme. Time to accept reality and move on. Khirurg ( talk) 01:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
What is this obsession with Kallivretakis?I'm not obsessed with Kallivretakis, it's your double standards all the time that are bothering me. I'm not disputing that some villages in the extreme South of Albania are Greek, unlike you:
Nobody speaks Albanian anymore.. Demographics have changed, do I have to remind you of Qeparo? The upper part is almost non-existent anymore, thus Qeparo became an "an Albanian-speaking village" [1]. The next census in Albania hopefully will provide clarity, unlike Greece that's been hiding their demographics for decades.
very few people work the land nowadays. "Der Landwirtschaftssektor ist weiterhin in Griechenland ein sehr wichtiger Bereich von wirtschaftlichen Aktivitäten und Arbeitsbeschaffung. Der primäre Bereich der Agrikultur beschäftigt 12,4% der gesamten Arbeitskraft in Griechenland und umfasst etwa 600.000 Personen (2010)." [2]. I don't think I need to translate.
Tom Winnifrith, a British researcher, searched all over the regionYou mean three cities? AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus.Also I find it unencyclopedic that Alexikoua hasn't made a single comment here since I've kindly asked him to discuss here. AlexBachmann ( talk) 21:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
virtually disappeared. He is clearly referring to Cham Albanian in Epirus, not Albanian in Greece as a whole, as you are trying to claim with that figure of 600,000. Khirurg ( talk) 00:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Να σημειωθεί ότι τα αρβανίτικα έθιμα είναι καθαρά ελληνικά και δεν έχουν καμία σχέση με τα αλβανικά. Άλλωστε οι Αρβανίτες είναι Έλληνες με ιδιαίτερο γλωσσικό ιδιίωμα και όχι Αλβανοί.into Google Translate and see what you get. This is why blogposts are not to be taken seriously. Khirurg ( talk) 00:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Btw you should read something before you post it.I already did. Similar to the Arvanites in Attica, huh? For me personally this would prove that's its 100% true even though it's not a RS. This just shows this post is not made by an Albanian.
@ Khirurg, @ Alexikoua it seems we have a disagreement on the interpretation of the source by Miranda Vickers. According to Vickers, there are 250,000 Chams in Albania, 400,000 living in diaspora, and 40,000 living in Greece. Would this not total up to at least 650,000 or 690,000? The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined. I think, we should reach a consensus through discussion. Thanks, Yung Doohickey ( talk) 05:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure what leads you to believe that this publication isn't peer reviewed.Sounds like you do not understand what peer review is or how it works. If that's the case, you shouldn't be editing this topic. Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures. Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades. This is my last post on the topic. You are just repeating the same arguments over and over while trying to maximize the numbers as much as possible, as you are doing across multiple articles. Khirurg ( talk) 04:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures.This argument is WP:SYNTH and fails to account for Chams that already lived in or have emigrated to Albania prior to WWII. You have not cited a single source throughout this entire discussion, nor elaborated on your concerns.
Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades.Yes I did, in my previous response:
I think Vickers estimates ~150,000 Chams in Albania are descended from the deportees from WWII (which is more than possible), which the rest were likely there prior to expulsion (probably through simple emigration).If you refuse to continue the discussion, and reject all of my arguments, I don't see how we can resolve this without other editors joining in. Yung Doohickey ( talk) 06:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
The Cham refugees set up associations and clubs. These have been revital-ized after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania. According to the local officials they claim that the original Chams were 30,000 to 35,000 and that today their descendants number close to 170,000(Kallivertakis, 1995:50)
The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others.[1] Which would imply the refugee population doubled twice in 6 decades (entirely possible) The other 100,000 are Chams who lived on the Albanian side since before WWII.
The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined.which is not an adequate explanation. The fact that you think it is too low means absolutely nothing. Roudmoetof is a top notch academic source. And no it's not 28 years old, it is actually from 2002. Let me remind you that populations in this part of the world are no longer growing, but are in fact shrinking. So there is every reason to believe that the Cham population hasn't grown significantly in the last 20 years, and in fact is very likely shrinking as we discuss this. Khirurg ( talk) 06:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
which does not seem to indicate the total Cham population.That's just your own speculation. Btw, no source claims a figure of 690k, you just added the estimated 40k in Greece to Vicker's figure, but that's the very definition of WP:SYNTH. And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k. Khirurg ( talk) 02:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k.They add up to 460k, and it doesn't matter because this would be WP:SYNTH. Combining figures from a single source is not WP:SYNTH, combining them from multiple different sources is. Vickers and Ahmed both have 250k in Albania and 400k in diaspora (and Vickers estimates 40k in Greece). Yung Doohickey ( talk) 03:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diasporaclearly refers to the total number of Chams. Khirurg ( talk) 16:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
In that part the article elaborates only on those Chams who are not Greek citizens nowadays: "Although the majority of Muslim Chams fled
Greece during the Second World War, other displacements occurred during the
Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, and during the dictatorship of General Metaxas in the
1930s when many Chams were violently driven from their homes. Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as
refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored." It makes a clear distinction between the Orthodox who are Greek citizens and those Chams who are in the diaspora Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home.
Pretending that Orthodox Chams in Greece are part of the diaspora is ridiculous, and it is merely an attempt to somehow reduce the total number of Chams, after the efforts to remove or tag Vickers failed. I do not mind having 40k Chams more or less in the total number, as it practically is a trivial thing that has no real importance or effect. But I dislike the bad faith I see in your effort to decrease the numbers through RS removal, RS tagging and source misinterpretation.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 18:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
"Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in
Greece" refers the 40k estimate to those who remained in Greece, not to the diaspora. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 07:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The majority of the Cham population were forcibly displaced from their homes in north-western Greece at various stages from 1913 to 1949 and today more than 250,000 Chams live as refugees in Albania and elsewhere and they are campaigning ever more vigorously for the Greek government to grant them Greek citizenship and to return their confiscated properties with due compensation.
The 250,000 figures includes Cham diaspora everywhere and as such the older Vickers figures should be corrected accordingly. It's not the first time that Vickers self-refutes here older claims though. On her 2007 paper she claimed that Chameria stretched as far as Prespa which is clearly non-historical. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Ok Kretsi is one scholar, but it's not the only one that rejects such data. Zhelyazkova, 2003: In order to wind up the topic of Зams, we should mention that, in the opinion of the Greek scholars, today the Зam population numbers around 80 000 persons. There are Albanian web-sites on the Internet that discuss the theme of the genocide of Зams committed by the Greeks. One can find there publications in which their number is specified to be about 500 000; many of our Albanian respondents believed they exceed this figure many times. As is usual in the Balkans, in such disputes over minorities, the parties are
biased, while the truth lies somewhere in the middle. According to our own estimates, based on census data produced by the Special Commission that counted them in the first quarter of the 20th century and recorded their number to be 20 000, the Зams could be about 120 000 - 150 000 people, 90 per cent of them being Muslims. During the period of their expulsion, or flight, after the end of World War II, all Зams of Muslim faith departed, while the Christians remained and were integrated into the Greek society
Alexikoua (
talk) 00:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
As a result, the problem of the property and number of Çams has been directly linked with the property and number of Greeks in Albania. According to the team’s approximate estimates, today the Çams living in Albania must be around 120-150 thousandper his 2004 paper. Yung Doohickey ( talk) 23:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
According to the President of "Tsamouria", "thirty to thirty-five thousand" Chamides left Greece after the war, and today they amount to "one hundred and sixty to one hundred and seventy thousand", a number which, if it were real, would mean, as Aggelos Elefantis observes , that while the total population of Albania tripled between 1950 and 1990, "the Chams in particular increased eightfold. Greek estimates on the other side put them at just 25,000."
Alexikoua (
talk) 21:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
Cham Albanians was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 3 sections are present. |
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Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
"Later, in 1258 when groups of Albanians around Dyrrachion (Durrës) were allied with the Despot of Epirus, Michael II Doukas, there was no evidence of Albanians in Epirus" While 2 sentences before, following appears: "During this time, the earliest mention of Albanians within the region of Epirus is recorded in a Venetian document of 1210 as inhabiting the area opposite the island of Corfu" I somehow do not understand the context. I also failed verification for the first claim. AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:32, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period, hence it refers to specific Albanian groups and their movement southwards. Such a movement is indeed undocumented but Albanians were already present in the region in 1210 and as Lopasić (1992) writes:
In the south, Albanians had already started to move into Greece towards the Peloponnese and Thessaly in the thirteenth century when they fought as mercenaries of the Despot Michael II Angelos in 1268[1] which means that there's no reason to include the statement about 1258 in the article.
References
-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:51, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
@
Khirurg you're always playing the victim and implying that there's a conspiracy against you when it's you who refuses to discuss and revert so that users can't revert your absurd arguments without breaching the 3-Revert-Rule.
It's onto you to seek consensus to remove content, and I evidently don't agree with it. Do you even know what "peasant woman" means? It means Bäuerin / grua fshatar in my two native languages. Here's a definition for you:
noun:
a member of a class of persons, as in Europe, Asia, and Latin America, who are small farmers or farm laborers of low social rank.
[1]
Even if peasant woman meant something that you're thinking it is it's still not a valid reason to remove it. One could simply write: In 1980, [Author] recorded that... But that's not what you're aiming for, isn't it? Ice-cold removal of content that calls for edit-warring is the standard here and I'm honestly fed up with it. I'm sure you would be very happy if I removed Kallivretakis because I don't like his choice of words. Unfortunately I don't speak Greek so I can't do that. AlexBachmann ( talk) 18:59, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
it describes a reality that no longer existsJust as Kallivretakis does. The vast majority of Greeks in Albania has emigrated to Greece since 1990 (Georgiou, Myria). I won't go further into this, perhaps we'll talk about that at the appropriate venue.
ridiculous threats about KallivretakisThat's not a thread, and you know that, it's just a comparison. What you're doing with him. It's funny to me that the quote you've been removing isn't valid but at the same time Kallivretakis is. That's the point. If you can't see that, I don't know what to do.
There is simply no way we are going to present a reality from 1978I will ask you again, if you have any evidence that the situation has changed. If you can give me a source that Cham Albanian is dying out in Christian Arvanite/Albanian communities in Epirus, I'll agree to put this into the past tense.
There are no large rural populations in Greece anymore. Exactly. You don't know either. Perhaps a source could help.
have long ago assimilated. Do you know what we're talking about? We are talking about the language that they speak, not about a revival of Albanian consciousness and nationalism in Christian Albanian communities in Epirus.
Some Orthodox speakers remained, but the language was not encouraged or even allowed, and by the end of the twentieth century it had virtually disappeared..... And so with spurious confidence Greek historians insist that the inscriptions prove that the Epirots of 360, given Greek names by their fathers and grandfathers at the turn of the century, prove the continuity of Greek speech in Southern Albania since their grandfathers whose names they might bear would have been living in the time of Thucydides. Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus. They have impeccable names, they speak only Greek, but their grandparents undoubtedly spoke Albanian.) The language has disappeared. And this was in 2002, nowadays the situation would be even more extreme. Time to accept reality and move on. Khirurg ( talk) 01:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
What is this obsession with Kallivretakis?I'm not obsessed with Kallivretakis, it's your double standards all the time that are bothering me. I'm not disputing that some villages in the extreme South of Albania are Greek, unlike you:
Nobody speaks Albanian anymore.. Demographics have changed, do I have to remind you of Qeparo? The upper part is almost non-existent anymore, thus Qeparo became an "an Albanian-speaking village" [1]. The next census in Albania hopefully will provide clarity, unlike Greece that's been hiding their demographics for decades.
very few people work the land nowadays. "Der Landwirtschaftssektor ist weiterhin in Griechenland ein sehr wichtiger Bereich von wirtschaftlichen Aktivitäten und Arbeitsbeschaffung. Der primäre Bereich der Agrikultur beschäftigt 12,4% der gesamten Arbeitskraft in Griechenland und umfasst etwa 600.000 Personen (2010)." [2]. I don't think I need to translate.
Tom Winnifrith, a British researcher, searched all over the regionYou mean three cities? AlexBachmann ( talk) 19:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
Try telling the same story to some present-day inhabitants of places like Margariti and Filiates in Southern Epirus.Also I find it unencyclopedic that Alexikoua hasn't made a single comment here since I've kindly asked him to discuss here. AlexBachmann ( talk) 21:39, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
virtually disappeared. He is clearly referring to Cham Albanian in Epirus, not Albanian in Greece as a whole, as you are trying to claim with that figure of 600,000. Khirurg ( talk) 00:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
Να σημειωθεί ότι τα αρβανίτικα έθιμα είναι καθαρά ελληνικά και δεν έχουν καμία σχέση με τα αλβανικά. Άλλωστε οι Αρβανίτες είναι Έλληνες με ιδιαίτερο γλωσσικό ιδιίωμα και όχι Αλβανοί.into Google Translate and see what you get. This is why blogposts are not to be taken seriously. Khirurg ( talk) 00:33, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Btw you should read something before you post it.I already did. Similar to the Arvanites in Attica, huh? For me personally this would prove that's its 100% true even though it's not a RS. This just shows this post is not made by an Albanian.
@ Khirurg, @ Alexikoua it seems we have a disagreement on the interpretation of the source by Miranda Vickers. According to Vickers, there are 250,000 Chams in Albania, 400,000 living in diaspora, and 40,000 living in Greece. Would this not total up to at least 650,000 or 690,000? The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined. I think, we should reach a consensus through discussion. Thanks, Yung Doohickey ( talk) 05:34, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
I'm not sure what leads you to believe that this publication isn't peer reviewed.Sounds like you do not understand what peer review is or how it works. If that's the case, you shouldn't be editing this topic. Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures. Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades. This is my last post on the topic. You are just repeating the same arguments over and over while trying to maximize the numbers as much as possible, as you are doing across multiple articles. Khirurg ( talk) 04:04, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Even if we take into account the 85k migrants (a very high figure, the source itself is dubious), and add that to ~40k in Greece (the most common estimate), that's 120k Chams in 1944, which would still imply an increase of 400%-500% in 6 decades to get to Vickers' non-peer-reviewed figures.This argument is WP:SYNTH and fails to account for Chams that already lived in or have emigrated to Albania prior to WWII. You have not cited a single source throughout this entire discussion, nor elaborated on your concerns.
Not to mention you have not addressed my argument how we went from ~25k Chams in Albania at the end of 1945, to 250k in the space of a few decades.Yes I did, in my previous response:
I think Vickers estimates ~150,000 Chams in Albania are descended from the deportees from WWII (which is more than possible), which the rest were likely there prior to expulsion (probably through simple emigration).If you refuse to continue the discussion, and reject all of my arguments, I don't see how we can resolve this without other editors joining in. Yung Doohickey ( talk) 06:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
The Cham refugees set up associations and clubs. These have been revital-ized after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania. According to the local officials they claim that the original Chams were 30,000 to 35,000 and that today their descendants number close to 170,000(Kallivertakis, 1995:50)
The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others.[1] Which would imply the refugee population doubled twice in 6 decades (entirely possible) The other 100,000 are Chams who lived on the Albanian side since before WWII.
The figure of 170,000 Chams is 28 years old and extremely low in comparison to the minimum estimate of all countries combined.which is not an adequate explanation. The fact that you think it is too low means absolutely nothing. Roudmoetof is a top notch academic source. And no it's not 28 years old, it is actually from 2002. Let me remind you that populations in this part of the world are no longer growing, but are in fact shrinking. So there is every reason to believe that the Cham population hasn't grown significantly in the last 20 years, and in fact is very likely shrinking as we discuss this. Khirurg ( talk) 06:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
which does not seem to indicate the total Cham population.That's just your own speculation. Btw, no source claims a figure of 690k, you just added the estimated 40k in Greece to Vicker's figure, but that's the very definition of WP:SYNTH. And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k. Khirurg ( talk) 02:30, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
And even the maximum estimates in the infobox only add up to 440k, way below 650k.They add up to 460k, and it doesn't matter because this would be WP:SYNTH. Combining figures from a single source is not WP:SYNTH, combining them from multiple different sources is. Vickers and Ahmed both have 250k in Albania and 400k in diaspora (and Vickers estimates 40k in Greece). Yung Doohickey ( talk) 03:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diasporaclearly refers to the total number of Chams. Khirurg ( talk) 16:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
In that part the article elaborates only on those Chams who are not Greek citizens nowadays: "Although the majority of Muslim Chams fled
Greece during the Second World War, other displacements occurred during the
Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, and during the dictatorship of General Metaxas in the
1930s when many Chams were violently driven from their homes. Today there are approximately 250,000 Chams in Albania and an estimated 400,000 in the wider diaspora, mostly in the USA and Turkey. Despite being granted Albanian citizenship in 1953, many Chams still regard themselves as
refugees deprived of their Greek citizenship and the right to return to their property in Greece. The Chams are campaigning for the Greek government to acknowledge the violence perpetrated against them, and for the return of their confiscated properties together with compensation for their use since their expulsion. They also want their Greek citizenship restored." It makes a clear distinction between the Orthodox who are Greek citizens and those Chams who are in the diaspora Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home.
Pretending that Orthodox Chams in Greece are part of the diaspora is ridiculous, and it is merely an attempt to somehow reduce the total number of Chams, after the efforts to remove or tag Vickers failed. I do not mind having 40k Chams more or less in the total number, as it practically is a trivial thing that has no real importance or effect. But I dislike the bad faith I see in your effort to decrease the numbers through RS removal, RS tagging and source misinterpretation.
Ktrimi991 (
talk) 18:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
"Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in
Greece" refers the 40k estimate to those who remained in Greece, not to the diaspora. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 07:12, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The majority of the Cham population were forcibly displaced from their homes in north-western Greece at various stages from 1913 to 1949 and today more than 250,000 Chams live as refugees in Albania and elsewhere and they are campaigning ever more vigorously for the Greek government to grant them Greek citizenship and to return their confiscated properties with due compensation.
The 250,000 figures includes Cham diaspora everywhere and as such the older Vickers figures should be corrected accordingly. It's not the first time that Vickers self-refutes here older claims though. On her 2007 paper she claimed that Chameria stretched as far as Prespa which is clearly non-historical. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Ok Kretsi is one scholar, but it's not the only one that rejects such data. Zhelyazkova, 2003: In order to wind up the topic of Зams, we should mention that, in the opinion of the Greek scholars, today the Зam population numbers around 80 000 persons. There are Albanian web-sites on the Internet that discuss the theme of the genocide of Зams committed by the Greeks. One can find there publications in which their number is specified to be about 500 000; many of our Albanian respondents believed they exceed this figure many times. As is usual in the Balkans, in such disputes over minorities, the parties are
biased, while the truth lies somewhere in the middle. According to our own estimates, based on census data produced by the Special Commission that counted them in the first quarter of the 20th century and recorded their number to be 20 000, the Зams could be about 120 000 - 150 000 people, 90 per cent of them being Muslims. During the period of their expulsion, or flight, after the end of World War II, all Зams of Muslim faith departed, while the Christians remained and were integrated into the Greek society
Alexikoua (
talk) 00:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
As a result, the problem of the property and number of Çams has been directly linked with the property and number of Greeks in Albania. According to the team’s approximate estimates, today the Çams living in Albania must be around 120-150 thousandper his 2004 paper. Yung Doohickey ( talk) 23:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
According to the President of "Tsamouria", "thirty to thirty-five thousand" Chamides left Greece after the war, and today they amount to "one hundred and sixty to one hundred and seventy thousand", a number which, if it were real, would mean, as Aggelos Elefantis observes , that while the total population of Albania tripled between 1950 and 1990, "the Chams in particular increased eightfold. Greek estimates on the other side put them at just 25,000."
Alexikoua (
talk) 21:46, 12 January 2024 (UTC)