![]() | Cedar Fire has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It's true that we will never know if the Cedar Fire could have been stopped by earlier, more massive, intervention. However, it's better to say "We did all we could." than "We didn't bother because it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference." Rsduhamel 01:11, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to user Minesweeper for adding a photo, but a trio of politicians looking earnest is about the most irrelevant photo for this article. Aren't there any PD photos that show the fire? - Willmcw 21:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems the news media can't get it straight on what Martinez was charged with. I think we may have it straight this time. Rsduhamel 22:38, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why is the "Why was the Cedar Fire so bad?" section written so poorly and in such an odd way?
--- Modified narration of fire to follow chronological order (i.e. Julian area and firefighter burned after fire turned east, put approximate time ("noon") of Scripps Ranch fires. "Noon" is approximate but definitely many house were burning (or burnt) by that time. The first houses in Scripps Ranch area were likely burning as early as 8:00 or 9:00 AM. Removed mention of "merger with Grand Prix fire" as no citation is provided and the statement is incorrect ( http://www.geog.utah.edu/~cova/kim-etal-nhr-2006.pdf).(The Grand Prix and Old Fires, which were also burning at that time merged but were well to the north of the Cedar Fire. Removed mention of where firefighter was from as while efforts are greatly appreciated, did not seem of first order relevance. 146.244.227.73 18:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I've moved this section here. It's not encyclopedic, completely unsourced, and reads like an essay. It needs a complete rewrite:
Would the results have been different if alleged mistakes had not been made in fighting the fire? We will never know, but there is good reason to believe that the Cedar Fire would have been cataclysmic anyway. Once the Santa Ana wind-driven flames took off, there was little that could have been done to stop them.
Some have suggested that fire suppression leads to conditions that caused the Cedar fire to be so large. However, extensive research by Jon E. Keeley and C.J. Fotheringham has shown that burn patterns have not changed significantly in southern California since 1878. The California Statewide Fire History Database indicates that since 1910, the mean size of fires in San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Riverside and San Diego counties has remained constant. The timing of fires is equally consistent, with most igniting June through November with September representing the most flammable period. In a study by S.A. Mensing and others, seabed charcoal deposits off the coast of Santa Barbara County have shown that the frequency of large, Santa Ana driven fires has not changed over the past 500 years. Similar results are produced even when comparing years before and after 1950 when advanced fire suppression technology was developed and utilized on a massive scale.
The only important change revealed by these studies has been an increase in fire frequency during modern times, not a decrease. Fire in chaparral is a natural, unpreventable event. Despite efforts to control them, large chaparral fires have continued unabated since our arrival in California. The assumption that old stands with an "unnatural accumulation of old brush" encourage fires to spread and become more dangerous is inaccurate. Studies by Max Moritz have shown that fuel age does not significantly affect the probability of burning.
Why did the Cedar Fire happen when it did? All fires require a fire triangle whose three vertices are fuel, heat, and oxygen. In San Diego County in October of 2003 fuel was in abundance, and strong Santa Ana conditions had driven daytime temperatures above 90 °F + (32 °C) in the days leading up to the fire. In addition, on the night of October 26 the Santa Ana winds meant humidity was down to single-digits, and 40 miles-per-hour (64 km/h) easterlies were blowing from the desert toward the coast. The result was mass ignition, a rapidly-moving fire, and extreme fire behavior, including large fire whirls. With all elements of the fire triangle present and at high levels, the Cedar Fire rapidly became a record firestorm.
Budding Journalist 07:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm proposing deleting this section as non-encyclopedic. I'm moving this section to here, below. This is more the kind of material I'd expect to find in a newspaper article. As tragic as the loss is for the families of those killed, none of the folks are notable in an encyclopedic sense, and we typically don't have such lists for other disaster articles. The way the heading is, it appears that someone was trying to use Wikipedia as a memorial page, which isn't really in our scope of purpose. Any objections?
AKRadecki
Speaketh 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The following individuals lost their lives in the Cedar Fire [1]
The article calls the I-15 and CA-52 by their named designations ("Escondido Freeway", "Mount Soledad Freeway"). Those are indeed correct, but it is not the custom in San Diego to use those names when referring to freeways. See LA Times style guide referenced here: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/19/local/la-me-rr-southland-freeways-are-a-number-not-a-name-20120919, the first sentence of this wikipedia article /info/en/?search=Southern_California_freeways#Naming. Local media in San Diego never uses the names, but instead the numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tilthouse ( talk • contribs) 17:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
References
This is being moved here due to lack of citations and the statement of uncertainty in the last sentence:
I can not site for the privately owned water truck but i can site for the Sheriff's Deputy threatening to write citations and possible arrests for residents not leaving the private road across from magnolia. The intensity of the fire in the eucalyptas hills area only lasted the short 15 minutes with the gust of winds raining embers from muth valley but snuffed its self out from lack of oxygen once the winds changed. The fire spread from embers to flames rapidly because of the large Eucalyptas trees on the hill (some of which we have been told were the largest in the hills)They acted like torches and fell quickly on to roof tops. I personally lost everything i owned including the shirt on my back from the embers raining down. In this 15 minutes of chaos not a single fireman/police officer was in the area because they had been dispatched to the much more dangerous area of wild cat canyon. An area which city officials have recently approved a massive development (muth valley) despite the efforts of residents to remind the officials of the devistation and lives lost from lack of escape routes from a high winds canyon. The morning after fire fighters were dispatched but quickly removed and placed into hotter areas to try and contain the fire. Like i stated before the flames only lasted about 15 minutes and then quickly snuffed themself out as the santa anna winds forced the smoke down and into the hills. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.7.238.104 (
talk) 21:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
This sentence: "In the aftermath of the fire the curfew for firefighting aircraft was extended from 1/2 hour before sunset to 1/2 hour after sunset and pilots have been given more discretion in deciding whether to attack a fire or not." has been removed because it is not cited, and the Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations still lists the operational times as was at the time of the fire. AKRadecki Speaketh 17:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I've once again removed the victims list. It's not appropriate for an encyclopedia article...this isn't a newspaper. Second, I've remove the comparisons section, as the first paragraph merely restated material already found here, and the second was just an overview of the 2007 article. SA entry is sufficient AKRadecki Speaketh 17:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: David Eppstein ( talk · contribs) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Quick fail. The drive-by nominator has not addressed citation needed tags in place since 2007 (!), the criticism section seems out of proportion, the section order makes no sense, the lead does not summarize the article, and the Fatalities section does not WP:USEPROSE. — David Eppstein ( talk) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am in the process of cleaning up this article in hopes of getting it to WP:GA status. One of the last main things that needs to be addressed is the list of fatalities. Now lets get one thing clear, no one is suggesting the loss of life is not tragic. The question here is does a LIST of those killed warrant placement in this article? If so, how and in what format. I took a look at WP:USEPROSE (thanks David Eppstein ( talk · contribs) for pointing me there!) and it states Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a simple list may not. Now I would like to point out the last 2 words may not. It is possible that a list is still the right format here. I am having a hard time seeing what would be gained by having a bunch of sequential sentences that give the name, age and location of death for each of the 15 people killed. I took a look at a couple of other articles that contain large lists of individuals killed: Yarnell Hill Fire, Charles Whitman and Virginia Tech shooting. Each of these use a box on the right side of the page to list the names (not sure what the technical name for this box is... Not an infobox and not a navbox...). I am very much leaning in this direction.
My proposal is to rewrite the fatalities section to have a paragraph or so about the causes of death, how the fire spread faster than predicted, how people thought they had time they didn't really have, etc. (All well referenced of course). Then to have a side box that contains a list of the killed to include Name, age and both date and location of death. Perhaps broken up by date. I welcome any and all feedback! -- Zackmann08 ( Talk to me/ What I been doing) 02:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Cedar Fire (2003). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
I am giving this article a GA Review. Reviewer: Shearonink ( talk · contribs) 06:38, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) TonyBallioni ( talk) 04:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Cedar Fire (2003) → Cedar Fire – It obviously looks like a primary topic for me - Why? When compared into Cedar Fire of 2016, this is absolutely VERY destructive and as such it's much more notable than that. Compare the 2003 incarnation and 2016 incarnation with the Wikimedia's pageviews tool, the 2003 version fully trumped the 2016 version. I cannot doubt that this is the primary topic. SMB99thx XD ( contribs) 10:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@ LightandDark2000: Please justify using that memorial service source when nearly all reliable sources covering the Thomas Fire have quoted the Cedar Fire as being ~273k acres, and CalFIRE officially has that figure as well.-- Jasper Deng (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | Cedar Fire has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It's true that we will never know if the Cedar Fire could have been stopped by earlier, more massive, intervention. However, it's better to say "We did all we could." than "We didn't bother because it probably wouldn't have made much of a difference." Rsduhamel 01:11, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks to user Minesweeper for adding a photo, but a trio of politicians looking earnest is about the most irrelevant photo for this article. Aren't there any PD photos that show the fire? - Willmcw 21:50, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It seems the news media can't get it straight on what Martinez was charged with. I think we may have it straight this time. Rsduhamel 22:38, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why is the "Why was the Cedar Fire so bad?" section written so poorly and in such an odd way?
--- Modified narration of fire to follow chronological order (i.e. Julian area and firefighter burned after fire turned east, put approximate time ("noon") of Scripps Ranch fires. "Noon" is approximate but definitely many house were burning (or burnt) by that time. The first houses in Scripps Ranch area were likely burning as early as 8:00 or 9:00 AM. Removed mention of "merger with Grand Prix fire" as no citation is provided and the statement is incorrect ( http://www.geog.utah.edu/~cova/kim-etal-nhr-2006.pdf).(The Grand Prix and Old Fires, which were also burning at that time merged but were well to the north of the Cedar Fire. Removed mention of where firefighter was from as while efforts are greatly appreciated, did not seem of first order relevance. 146.244.227.73 18:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I've moved this section here. It's not encyclopedic, completely unsourced, and reads like an essay. It needs a complete rewrite:
Would the results have been different if alleged mistakes had not been made in fighting the fire? We will never know, but there is good reason to believe that the Cedar Fire would have been cataclysmic anyway. Once the Santa Ana wind-driven flames took off, there was little that could have been done to stop them.
Some have suggested that fire suppression leads to conditions that caused the Cedar fire to be so large. However, extensive research by Jon E. Keeley and C.J. Fotheringham has shown that burn patterns have not changed significantly in southern California since 1878. The California Statewide Fire History Database indicates that since 1910, the mean size of fires in San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Ventura, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Riverside and San Diego counties has remained constant. The timing of fires is equally consistent, with most igniting June through November with September representing the most flammable period. In a study by S.A. Mensing and others, seabed charcoal deposits off the coast of Santa Barbara County have shown that the frequency of large, Santa Ana driven fires has not changed over the past 500 years. Similar results are produced even when comparing years before and after 1950 when advanced fire suppression technology was developed and utilized on a massive scale.
The only important change revealed by these studies has been an increase in fire frequency during modern times, not a decrease. Fire in chaparral is a natural, unpreventable event. Despite efforts to control them, large chaparral fires have continued unabated since our arrival in California. The assumption that old stands with an "unnatural accumulation of old brush" encourage fires to spread and become more dangerous is inaccurate. Studies by Max Moritz have shown that fuel age does not significantly affect the probability of burning.
Why did the Cedar Fire happen when it did? All fires require a fire triangle whose three vertices are fuel, heat, and oxygen. In San Diego County in October of 2003 fuel was in abundance, and strong Santa Ana conditions had driven daytime temperatures above 90 °F + (32 °C) in the days leading up to the fire. In addition, on the night of October 26 the Santa Ana winds meant humidity was down to single-digits, and 40 miles-per-hour (64 km/h) easterlies were blowing from the desert toward the coast. The result was mass ignition, a rapidly-moving fire, and extreme fire behavior, including large fire whirls. With all elements of the fire triangle present and at high levels, the Cedar Fire rapidly became a record firestorm.
Budding Journalist 07:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm proposing deleting this section as non-encyclopedic. I'm moving this section to here, below. This is more the kind of material I'd expect to find in a newspaper article. As tragic as the loss is for the families of those killed, none of the folks are notable in an encyclopedic sense, and we typically don't have such lists for other disaster articles. The way the heading is, it appears that someone was trying to use Wikipedia as a memorial page, which isn't really in our scope of purpose. Any objections?
AKRadecki
Speaketh 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The following individuals lost their lives in the Cedar Fire [1]
The article calls the I-15 and CA-52 by their named designations ("Escondido Freeway", "Mount Soledad Freeway"). Those are indeed correct, but it is not the custom in San Diego to use those names when referring to freeways. See LA Times style guide referenced here: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/19/local/la-me-rr-southland-freeways-are-a-number-not-a-name-20120919, the first sentence of this wikipedia article /info/en/?search=Southern_California_freeways#Naming. Local media in San Diego never uses the names, but instead the numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tilthouse ( talk • contribs) 17:52, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
References
This is being moved here due to lack of citations and the statement of uncertainty in the last sentence:
I can not site for the privately owned water truck but i can site for the Sheriff's Deputy threatening to write citations and possible arrests for residents not leaving the private road across from magnolia. The intensity of the fire in the eucalyptas hills area only lasted the short 15 minutes with the gust of winds raining embers from muth valley but snuffed its self out from lack of oxygen once the winds changed. The fire spread from embers to flames rapidly because of the large Eucalyptas trees on the hill (some of which we have been told were the largest in the hills)They acted like torches and fell quickly on to roof tops. I personally lost everything i owned including the shirt on my back from the embers raining down. In this 15 minutes of chaos not a single fireman/police officer was in the area because they had been dispatched to the much more dangerous area of wild cat canyon. An area which city officials have recently approved a massive development (muth valley) despite the efforts of residents to remind the officials of the devistation and lives lost from lack of escape routes from a high winds canyon. The morning after fire fighters were dispatched but quickly removed and placed into hotter areas to try and contain the fire. Like i stated before the flames only lasted about 15 minutes and then quickly snuffed themself out as the santa anna winds forced the smoke down and into the hills. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.7.238.104 (
talk) 21:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
This sentence: "In the aftermath of the fire the curfew for firefighting aircraft was extended from 1/2 hour before sunset to 1/2 hour after sunset and pilots have been given more discretion in deciding whether to attack a fire or not." has been removed because it is not cited, and the Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations still lists the operational times as was at the time of the fire. AKRadecki Speaketh 17:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I've once again removed the victims list. It's not appropriate for an encyclopedia article...this isn't a newspaper. Second, I've remove the comparisons section, as the first paragraph merely restated material already found here, and the second was just an overview of the 2007 article. SA entry is sufficient AKRadecki Speaketh 17:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: David Eppstein ( talk · contribs) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Quick fail. The drive-by nominator has not addressed citation needed tags in place since 2007 (!), the criticism section seems out of proportion, the section order makes no sense, the lead does not summarize the article, and the Fatalities section does not WP:USEPROSE. — David Eppstein ( talk) 06:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am in the process of cleaning up this article in hopes of getting it to WP:GA status. One of the last main things that needs to be addressed is the list of fatalities. Now lets get one thing clear, no one is suggesting the loss of life is not tragic. The question here is does a LIST of those killed warrant placement in this article? If so, how and in what format. I took a look at WP:USEPROSE (thanks David Eppstein ( talk · contribs) for pointing me there!) and it states Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a simple list may not. Now I would like to point out the last 2 words may not. It is possible that a list is still the right format here. I am having a hard time seeing what would be gained by having a bunch of sequential sentences that give the name, age and location of death for each of the 15 people killed. I took a look at a couple of other articles that contain large lists of individuals killed: Yarnell Hill Fire, Charles Whitman and Virginia Tech shooting. Each of these use a box on the right side of the page to list the names (not sure what the technical name for this box is... Not an infobox and not a navbox...). I am very much leaning in this direction.
My proposal is to rewrite the fatalities section to have a paragraph or so about the causes of death, how the fire spread faster than predicted, how people thought they had time they didn't really have, etc. (All well referenced of course). Then to have a side box that contains a list of the killed to include Name, age and both date and location of death. Perhaps broken up by date. I welcome any and all feedback! -- Zackmann08 ( Talk to me/ What I been doing) 02:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 10 external links on Cedar Fire (2003). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:02, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
I am giving this article a GA Review. Reviewer: Shearonink ( talk · contribs) 06:38, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) TonyBallioni ( talk) 04:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Cedar Fire (2003) → Cedar Fire – It obviously looks like a primary topic for me - Why? When compared into Cedar Fire of 2016, this is absolutely VERY destructive and as such it's much more notable than that. Compare the 2003 incarnation and 2016 incarnation with the Wikimedia's pageviews tool, the 2003 version fully trumped the 2016 version. I cannot doubt that this is the primary topic. SMB99thx XD ( contribs) 10:23, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.@ LightandDark2000: Please justify using that memorial service source when nearly all reliable sources covering the Thomas Fire have quoted the Cedar Fire as being ~273k acres, and CalFIRE officially has that figure as well.-- Jasper Deng (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2017 (UTC)