Added and corrected from Traditional Catalan domain. Toniher 20:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
If Toniher had used a move, it would have been a lot simpler. The history of this article now includes edits done at Traditional Catalan domain as well as edits done on the current title of Catalonia (historic territory). -- RHaworth 15:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Catalonia has never been a sovereign country or an independent one for that matter, that is basic history. Stop pushing nationalist mythology.
As for your new correction I find it equally absurd and confusing. Catalonia is not and never was a country by itself. Such preposterous affirmation is coincident with the affirmation founded in that wikipedia article about " country/ies"; claiming that Wales and Scotland are also countries. Go ahead actitudes like this are just making Wikipedia useless as a serious reference page. I´m finding now web pages from universities and professors rejecting Wikipedia as a source in any essay. I thought it was typical collegial elitism but pages like this are making them right
Now you will argue that you are referring to the first definition let me guess, to play the game to equal country to nation, but you see in actual Political Geography there are two definitions of Nation. You may indeed think Catalonia is a nation(as a cultural concept) I´m not going to argue about that, but Catalonia is most def not a Nation as a Country because it does not have ultimate sovereignty and never did. Here you have it explained quite simple and clear( http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm). When you add that Catalonia is a "historic country" you know how it sounds in English? it doesn´t sound like you are talking about politics, it sounds like the traveling guide of a place with quaint Inns and ruins to visit.
It seems to be a great overlap between this article and History of Catalonia. Shouldn't both be merged? Another possibility is keeping this page as a reference to the tradition of the Catalan nationalist movement, since this seems to be the origin of the page as a split from the Catalonia article, as discussed there. Diego Moya 15:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The oldest formal reference dates back to 1350, during the Corts in Perpinyà presided by the king Peter IV of Aragon. However, there seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles.
The Principality denomination was even used during Bourbonic administration, after the Decretos de Nueva Planta, until the 19th century. Afterwards, Republican movements favoured its abandonment because it is historically somehow related to monarchy.
Current Constitution of Spain or the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia do not mention this denomination, but it is presently quite popular, especially among Catalan nationalists and independentists.
I might like or not the the fact that a sport team is regarded as a national symbol, but this is simply true nowadays, and not only for Barça... These things would be better discussed in Barça entry. Of course, there are political and historical motivations behind. However, I think this feeling is not currently as strong as it was, for instance, 40 years ago. Toniher 23:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
was referred to socioeconomical reasons. Maybe now between nationalist, and since it´s last presiden is interested more in politics than in sport, maybe the connotation has changed. Anyway how many catalan futboll players play in the Barcelona and how many foreign ones? how many of the thousands of Barsa´s followers through Spain such as Spain´s president Zapatero consider the Barcelona Catalonia national team? and the foreing followers and international sport press?
To me, this map appears to be a bit biased, attempting to depicting Spanish sovereign territory as separte from the rest of the Spanish state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.126.18 ( talk • contribs) 18 April 2006.
True there was no such political entity as Spain, so why does the map says "Spain" where Aragon is? It's totally biassed as it clearly separates Spain and Catalonia. Spain should be removed from the map or should be put on bigger fonts in a way that would include Catalonia. (It's not a matter of anti-nationalism, it's about being neutral and accurated) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.138.233.89 ( talk • contribs) 25 April 2006.
Added and corrected from Traditional Catalan domain. Toniher 20:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
If Toniher had used a move, it would have been a lot simpler. The history of this article now includes edits done at Traditional Catalan domain as well as edits done on the current title of Catalonia (historic territory). -- RHaworth 15:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Catalonia has never been a sovereign country or an independent one for that matter, that is basic history. Stop pushing nationalist mythology.
As for your new correction I find it equally absurd and confusing. Catalonia is not and never was a country by itself. Such preposterous affirmation is coincident with the affirmation founded in that wikipedia article about " country/ies"; claiming that Wales and Scotland are also countries. Go ahead actitudes like this are just making Wikipedia useless as a serious reference page. I´m finding now web pages from universities and professors rejecting Wikipedia as a source in any essay. I thought it was typical collegial elitism but pages like this are making them right
Now you will argue that you are referring to the first definition let me guess, to play the game to equal country to nation, but you see in actual Political Geography there are two definitions of Nation. You may indeed think Catalonia is a nation(as a cultural concept) I´m not going to argue about that, but Catalonia is most def not a Nation as a Country because it does not have ultimate sovereignty and never did. Here you have it explained quite simple and clear( http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeog/a/statenation.htm). When you add that Catalonia is a "historic country" you know how it sounds in English? it doesn´t sound like you are talking about politics, it sounds like the traveling guide of a place with quaint Inns and ruins to visit.
It seems to be a great overlap between this article and History of Catalonia. Shouldn't both be merged? Another possibility is keeping this page as a reference to the tradition of the Catalan nationalist movement, since this seems to be the origin of the page as a split from the Catalonia article, as discussed there. Diego Moya 15:53, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
The oldest formal reference dates back to 1350, during the Corts in Perpinyà presided by the king Peter IV of Aragon. However, there seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles.
The Principality denomination was even used during Bourbonic administration, after the Decretos de Nueva Planta, until the 19th century. Afterwards, Republican movements favoured its abandonment because it is historically somehow related to monarchy.
Current Constitution of Spain or the Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia do not mention this denomination, but it is presently quite popular, especially among Catalan nationalists and independentists.
I might like or not the the fact that a sport team is regarded as a national symbol, but this is simply true nowadays, and not only for Barça... These things would be better discussed in Barça entry. Of course, there are political and historical motivations behind. However, I think this feeling is not currently as strong as it was, for instance, 40 years ago. Toniher 23:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
was referred to socioeconomical reasons. Maybe now between nationalist, and since it´s last presiden is interested more in politics than in sport, maybe the connotation has changed. Anyway how many catalan futboll players play in the Barcelona and how many foreign ones? how many of the thousands of Barsa´s followers through Spain such as Spain´s president Zapatero consider the Barcelona Catalonia national team? and the foreing followers and international sport press?
To me, this map appears to be a bit biased, attempting to depicting Spanish sovereign territory as separte from the rest of the Spanish state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.165.126.18 ( talk • contribs) 18 April 2006.
True there was no such political entity as Spain, so why does the map says "Spain" where Aragon is? It's totally biassed as it clearly separates Spain and Catalonia. Spain should be removed from the map or should be put on bigger fonts in a way that would include Catalonia. (It's not a matter of anti-nationalism, it's about being neutral and accurated) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.138.233.89 ( talk • contribs) 25 April 2006.