This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). James 007 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Since you seem to be interested in the division of the Carpathians, maybe the following links could help you: the modern geomorphological division of Slovakia at sk:Geomorfologické členenie Slovenska (and the old orographical one at sk:Orografické členenie Slovenska). Juro 2 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)
There are several ways how to divide mountain ranges. I am not an expert, but since I have written e.g. the German Carpathians article I have become an expert on this. The only "scientific" division of mountains is - as the name suggests - the geomorphological one, therefore it is used in e.g. in the Slovak article (it is based the newest version of the 90s) and thought at universities as the only modern system. The same system is used in Czechia, Austria, and Germany (at least). Then there is the orographical, physiogeographical etc. division, which is - again as the name suggests - is more "practical" (descriptive) and "geographical". Now, I did not check it, but as far as I remember, what you say about the differences seems to be exactly the old (orographical) system, which was abandonned in Czechoslovakia in the 1970s, because - as I have found in an encyclopaedia - it was not "scientific" enough. (This does not mean that one cannot divide the Carpathians in more than two horizontal units, but if one goes into details, the system cannot be used systematically.) Also, the Slovaks know their own mountains (Western Carpathians) better than anyone else, I assume... If you insist, I think I can find the modern system for the whole Carpathians in a certain book (which I do not have here now). Juro 3 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)
P.S: (1)I have checked the Polish page quickly and it uses definitively the old system (even the names of Slovak and Czech mountains are not correct anymore), so I would not use the system, for territories outside Poland at least. (2) As for Poloniny, this is the Slovak equivalent of German de:Waldkarpaten. At the time Carpathian Ruthenia was part of Czechoslovakia the whole Eastern Carpathians were alternatively called Poloniny. The problem is that the eastern border of "anything" in Ukraine is disputed, so that I cannot tell you whether Hoverla is still "there". Another problem is that the Ukrainians call another (smaller) part of the Carpathians "Poloniny". Juro 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
(1)Yes, and not only that one, further mountains in SK and R are volcanic as well. (2) I am working on the list now.... Juro 5 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
The subdivisions of the Carpathians in this article doesn't correspond with the romanian subdivisions The romanians subdivide the Romanian Carpathians (see more here: 1; 2; 3; 4)in:
As you can see, they are 2 "Western Carpathians" and I recommend to subdivide the Carpathians on this way:
-- Olahus 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The SciFi/Horror movie 'the Cave' takes place in the Carpathian mountains, so that would be a good candidate to add to the fictional depictions sections. Just saying. -IkD —Preceding unsigned comment added by IkonicDeath ( talk • contribs) 06:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ukrainian movie made in 1964, entitled "Shadows of Forgotten Ancesters", is an eerie but ultimately enjoyable depiction of the logging and goat-herding people living in the Carpathian Mountains in western Ukraine in the middle of the 19th century. This is not a documentary but a fictional story based on oral legends.
The article now mentions the East Carpathian Mountains to have been called Sarmatian Mountains in later roman times. I 'm not sure about that, but I am definitly sure Ptolemy calls the West Carpathian Mountains Sarmation Mountains, see [1]. Notum-sit ( talk) 21:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The following fact is misplaced in this page and has no value to a discussion on "Carpathian Mountains" other than the author's own intellectual gratification:
I have removed it.
what's the tag for Transwiki? The Romanian wikipedia on this subject has a much better explanation of the subdivisions they use. It even has pictures for the subdivisions. :) what's the tag you need to use for this?-- Marhawkman ( talk) 06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to tag this article for copy editing, since the bulk of it seems to be written by someone whose first language is not English. Not to detract from their contributions, but this is an English-language article, after all :) Unvanquished ( talk) 18:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range. – i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine – Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats [2]. I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. James 007 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad. The internet being the way it is, this garbage posted by this Anonymous has been regurgitated and recycled across the internet, and you'll find a number of websites quoting the old Wikipedia article (from march 2002, until it was finally recently erased) as if it was accurate information. James 007 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. James 007 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': [3]. I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. James 007 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article... Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. James 007 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). James 007 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. James 007 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ashamw (
talk) 10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
and what do you say about origin of the word Carpathian not from Chrowat but from the name of people Haravathian who lived close to Azov Sea and Don River? I found some info that these are ancestors of white croats, who moved firstly from the region of Don river and then to the land of todays Croatia. For me sounds convincing.
Ashamw (
talk)
10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos
Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.
I have noticed that there are no maps of the Carpathian Mountains. Could someone add a picture of the location of these mountains on a map? darkraix13 23:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC) (Besides the one on the bottom) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkraix13 ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Review failed for WPPOLAND due to: insufficient inline citations.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). James 007 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Since you seem to be interested in the division of the Carpathians, maybe the following links could help you: the modern geomorphological division of Slovakia at sk:Geomorfologické členenie Slovenska (and the old orographical one at sk:Orografické členenie Slovenska). Juro 2 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)
There are several ways how to divide mountain ranges. I am not an expert, but since I have written e.g. the German Carpathians article I have become an expert on this. The only "scientific" division of mountains is - as the name suggests - the geomorphological one, therefore it is used in e.g. in the Slovak article (it is based the newest version of the 90s) and thought at universities as the only modern system. The same system is used in Czechia, Austria, and Germany (at least). Then there is the orographical, physiogeographical etc. division, which is - again as the name suggests - is more "practical" (descriptive) and "geographical". Now, I did not check it, but as far as I remember, what you say about the differences seems to be exactly the old (orographical) system, which was abandonned in Czechoslovakia in the 1970s, because - as I have found in an encyclopaedia - it was not "scientific" enough. (This does not mean that one cannot divide the Carpathians in more than two horizontal units, but if one goes into details, the system cannot be used systematically.) Also, the Slovaks know their own mountains (Western Carpathians) better than anyone else, I assume... If you insist, I think I can find the modern system for the whole Carpathians in a certain book (which I do not have here now). Juro 3 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)
P.S: (1)I have checked the Polish page quickly and it uses definitively the old system (even the names of Slovak and Czech mountains are not correct anymore), so I would not use the system, for territories outside Poland at least. (2) As for Poloniny, this is the Slovak equivalent of German de:Waldkarpaten. At the time Carpathian Ruthenia was part of Czechoslovakia the whole Eastern Carpathians were alternatively called Poloniny. The problem is that the eastern border of "anything" in Ukraine is disputed, so that I cannot tell you whether Hoverla is still "there". Another problem is that the Ukrainians call another (smaller) part of the Carpathians "Poloniny". Juro 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
(1)Yes, and not only that one, further mountains in SK and R are volcanic as well. (2) I am working on the list now.... Juro 5 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
The subdivisions of the Carpathians in this article doesn't correspond with the romanian subdivisions The romanians subdivide the Romanian Carpathians (see more here: 1; 2; 3; 4)in:
As you can see, they are 2 "Western Carpathians" and I recommend to subdivide the Carpathians on this way:
-- Olahus 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The SciFi/Horror movie 'the Cave' takes place in the Carpathian mountains, so that would be a good candidate to add to the fictional depictions sections. Just saying. -IkD —Preceding unsigned comment added by IkonicDeath ( talk • contribs) 06:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ukrainian movie made in 1964, entitled "Shadows of Forgotten Ancesters", is an eerie but ultimately enjoyable depiction of the logging and goat-herding people living in the Carpathian Mountains in western Ukraine in the middle of the 19th century. This is not a documentary but a fictional story based on oral legends.
The article now mentions the East Carpathian Mountains to have been called Sarmatian Mountains in later roman times. I 'm not sure about that, but I am definitly sure Ptolemy calls the West Carpathian Mountains Sarmation Mountains, see [4]. Notum-sit ( talk) 21:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The following fact is misplaced in this page and has no value to a discussion on "Carpathian Mountains" other than the author's own intellectual gratification:
I have removed it.
what's the tag for Transwiki? The Romanian wikipedia on this subject has a much better explanation of the subdivisions they use. It even has pictures for the subdivisions. :) what's the tag you need to use for this?-- Marhawkman ( talk) 06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to tag this article for copy editing, since the bulk of it seems to be written by someone whose first language is not English. Not to detract from their contributions, but this is an English-language article, after all :) Unvanquished ( talk) 18:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range. – i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine – Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats [5]. I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. James 007 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad. The internet being the way it is, this garbage posted by this Anonymous has been regurgitated and recycled across the internet, and you'll find a number of websites quoting the old Wikipedia article (from march 2002, until it was finally recently erased) as if it was accurate information. James 007 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. James 007 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': [6]. I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. James 007 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article... Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. James 007 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). James 007 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. James 007 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ashamw (
talk) 10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
and what do you say about origin of the word Carpathian not from Chrowat but from the name of people Haravathian who lived close to Azov Sea and Don River? I found some info that these are ancestors of white croats, who moved firstly from the region of Don river and then to the land of todays Croatia. For me sounds convincing.
Ashamw (
talk)
10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos
Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.
I have noticed that there are no maps of the Carpathian Mountains. Could someone add a picture of the location of these mountains on a map? darkraix13 23:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC) (Besides the one on the bottom) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkraix13 ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Review failed for WPPOLAND due to: insufficient inline citations.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Carpathian_mountain_ranges_naming. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The Geography section opens with the statement "The Carpathians begin on the Góra Świętego Marcina in Tarnów - northern edge of Pogórze Ciężkowickie". I've heard this before from Polish people, but I think it gives a very regional perspective. I have generally understood the range as being an arc running from just north of Bratislava (Slovakia) around to the Iron Gates on the Serbian - Romanian border. There is also the problem that the description does not mention the Serbian Carpathians. Does anyone have any thoughts on changing this part? Flyingsourcer ( talk) 15:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The people from former Czechoslovakia understand that the Carpathian Mountains start at the point where Morava River joins the Danube. Namely in Devin, a city borough of Bratislava, Slovakia. The hill that starts the entire Carphathian Mountains range is called Devínska Kobyla ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C3%ADnska_Kobyla) That is the most western point of the Carpathian Mountains, which begins with Little Carpathians (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Carpathians). That is the point where the arch starts. Tarnow is where the Carpathians start in Poland, well into the arch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.64.20.144 ( talk) 19:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
There are also a few hills in Austria, which geologically belong to the Devin Carpatians range dominated by Devínska Kobyla. So in all truth, the arch of the Carpathian Mountains starts with Hundsheimer Berge located close to the city of Hainburg, Austria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.64.20.144 ( talk) 20:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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The Ural mountains are 2,500 kms in lenght, which would make the Carpathians the 3rd longest mountain range in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eni2dad ( talk • contribs) 13:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
I found my way to this article as a result of a reference to the Carpathians in a news article about Ukraine. My main purpose was to learn exactly where the mountains were with respect to the borders of Ukraine. However, the map of subdivisions which appears at the beginning of the article is no help at all. It might as well be a piece of modern art. Fortunately, there is a physical map later in the article, and there is also a version of the subdivision map with a legend and some labels. Still, the labels are cryptic. (Are they country codes perhaps?)
So, my request/suggestion is that someone with the experience to do so at least copies one of the later maps to the beginning of the article. Further, although there is an article about the Ukrainian Carpathians, it is only mentioned once and that link is rather buried. Could it be made more visible at the beginning of this article?
Thank you in advance, anyone who is able to improve this article. I know it takes time and effort. Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). James 007 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Since you seem to be interested in the division of the Carpathians, maybe the following links could help you: the modern geomorphological division of Slovakia at sk:Geomorfologické členenie Slovenska (and the old orographical one at sk:Orografické členenie Slovenska). Juro 2 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)
There are several ways how to divide mountain ranges. I am not an expert, but since I have written e.g. the German Carpathians article I have become an expert on this. The only "scientific" division of mountains is - as the name suggests - the geomorphological one, therefore it is used in e.g. in the Slovak article (it is based the newest version of the 90s) and thought at universities as the only modern system. The same system is used in Czechia, Austria, and Germany (at least). Then there is the orographical, physiogeographical etc. division, which is - again as the name suggests - is more "practical" (descriptive) and "geographical". Now, I did not check it, but as far as I remember, what you say about the differences seems to be exactly the old (orographical) system, which was abandonned in Czechoslovakia in the 1970s, because - as I have found in an encyclopaedia - it was not "scientific" enough. (This does not mean that one cannot divide the Carpathians in more than two horizontal units, but if one goes into details, the system cannot be used systematically.) Also, the Slovaks know their own mountains (Western Carpathians) better than anyone else, I assume... If you insist, I think I can find the modern system for the whole Carpathians in a certain book (which I do not have here now). Juro 3 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)
P.S: (1)I have checked the Polish page quickly and it uses definitively the old system (even the names of Slovak and Czech mountains are not correct anymore), so I would not use the system, for territories outside Poland at least. (2) As for Poloniny, this is the Slovak equivalent of German de:Waldkarpaten. At the time Carpathian Ruthenia was part of Czechoslovakia the whole Eastern Carpathians were alternatively called Poloniny. The problem is that the eastern border of "anything" in Ukraine is disputed, so that I cannot tell you whether Hoverla is still "there". Another problem is that the Ukrainians call another (smaller) part of the Carpathians "Poloniny". Juro 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
(1)Yes, and not only that one, further mountains in SK and R are volcanic as well. (2) I am working on the list now.... Juro 5 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
The subdivisions of the Carpathians in this article doesn't correspond with the romanian subdivisions The romanians subdivide the Romanian Carpathians (see more here: 1; 2; 3; 4)in:
As you can see, they are 2 "Western Carpathians" and I recommend to subdivide the Carpathians on this way:
-- Olahus 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The SciFi/Horror movie 'the Cave' takes place in the Carpathian mountains, so that would be a good candidate to add to the fictional depictions sections. Just saying. -IkD —Preceding unsigned comment added by IkonicDeath ( talk • contribs) 06:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ukrainian movie made in 1964, entitled "Shadows of Forgotten Ancesters", is an eerie but ultimately enjoyable depiction of the logging and goat-herding people living in the Carpathian Mountains in western Ukraine in the middle of the 19th century. This is not a documentary but a fictional story based on oral legends.
The article now mentions the East Carpathian Mountains to have been called Sarmatian Mountains in later roman times. I 'm not sure about that, but I am definitly sure Ptolemy calls the West Carpathian Mountains Sarmation Mountains, see [1]. Notum-sit ( talk) 21:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The following fact is misplaced in this page and has no value to a discussion on "Carpathian Mountains" other than the author's own intellectual gratification:
I have removed it.
what's the tag for Transwiki? The Romanian wikipedia on this subject has a much better explanation of the subdivisions they use. It even has pictures for the subdivisions. :) what's the tag you need to use for this?-- Marhawkman ( talk) 06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to tag this article for copy editing, since the bulk of it seems to be written by someone whose first language is not English. Not to detract from their contributions, but this is an English-language article, after all :) Unvanquished ( talk) 18:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range. – i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine – Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats [2]. I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. James 007 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad. The internet being the way it is, this garbage posted by this Anonymous has been regurgitated and recycled across the internet, and you'll find a number of websites quoting the old Wikipedia article (from march 2002, until it was finally recently erased) as if it was accurate information. James 007 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. James 007 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': [3]. I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. James 007 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article... Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. James 007 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). James 007 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. James 007 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ashamw (
talk) 10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
and what do you say about origin of the word Carpathian not from Chrowat but from the name of people Haravathian who lived close to Azov Sea and Don River? I found some info that these are ancestors of white croats, who moved firstly from the region of Don river and then to the land of todays Croatia. For me sounds convincing.
Ashamw (
talk)
10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos
Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.
I have noticed that there are no maps of the Carpathian Mountains. Could someone add a picture of the location of these mountains on a map? darkraix13 23:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC) (Besides the one on the bottom) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkraix13 ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Review failed for WPPOLAND due to: insufficient inline citations.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The name 'Carpathian' should be given in more languages (Romanian, Polish, Slovak, etc.). James 007 04:38, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Since you seem to be interested in the division of the Carpathians, maybe the following links could help you: the modern geomorphological division of Slovakia at sk:Geomorfologické členenie Slovenska (and the old orographical one at sk:Orografické členenie Slovenska). Juro 2 July 2005 20:32 (UTC)
There are several ways how to divide mountain ranges. I am not an expert, but since I have written e.g. the German Carpathians article I have become an expert on this. The only "scientific" division of mountains is - as the name suggests - the geomorphological one, therefore it is used in e.g. in the Slovak article (it is based the newest version of the 90s) and thought at universities as the only modern system. The same system is used in Czechia, Austria, and Germany (at least). Then there is the orographical, physiogeographical etc. division, which is - again as the name suggests - is more "practical" (descriptive) and "geographical". Now, I did not check it, but as far as I remember, what you say about the differences seems to be exactly the old (orographical) system, which was abandonned in Czechoslovakia in the 1970s, because - as I have found in an encyclopaedia - it was not "scientific" enough. (This does not mean that one cannot divide the Carpathians in more than two horizontal units, but if one goes into details, the system cannot be used systematically.) Also, the Slovaks know their own mountains (Western Carpathians) better than anyone else, I assume... If you insist, I think I can find the modern system for the whole Carpathians in a certain book (which I do not have here now). Juro 3 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)
P.S: (1)I have checked the Polish page quickly and it uses definitively the old system (even the names of Slovak and Czech mountains are not correct anymore), so I would not use the system, for territories outside Poland at least. (2) As for Poloniny, this is the Slovak equivalent of German de:Waldkarpaten. At the time Carpathian Ruthenia was part of Czechoslovakia the whole Eastern Carpathians were alternatively called Poloniny. The problem is that the eastern border of "anything" in Ukraine is disputed, so that I cannot tell you whether Hoverla is still "there". Another problem is that the Ukrainians call another (smaller) part of the Carpathians "Poloniny". Juro 3 July 2005 22:31 (UTC)
(1)Yes, and not only that one, further mountains in SK and R are volcanic as well. (2) I am working on the list now.... Juro 5 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
The subdivisions of the Carpathians in this article doesn't correspond with the romanian subdivisions The romanians subdivide the Romanian Carpathians (see more here: 1; 2; 3; 4)in:
As you can see, they are 2 "Western Carpathians" and I recommend to subdivide the Carpathians on this way:
-- Olahus 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The SciFi/Horror movie 'the Cave' takes place in the Carpathian mountains, so that would be a good candidate to add to the fictional depictions sections. Just saying. -IkD —Preceding unsigned comment added by IkonicDeath ( talk • contribs) 06:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ukrainian movie made in 1964, entitled "Shadows of Forgotten Ancesters", is an eerie but ultimately enjoyable depiction of the logging and goat-herding people living in the Carpathian Mountains in western Ukraine in the middle of the 19th century. This is not a documentary but a fictional story based on oral legends.
The article now mentions the East Carpathian Mountains to have been called Sarmatian Mountains in later roman times. I 'm not sure about that, but I am definitly sure Ptolemy calls the West Carpathian Mountains Sarmation Mountains, see [4]. Notum-sit ( talk) 21:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
The following fact is misplaced in this page and has no value to a discussion on "Carpathian Mountains" other than the author's own intellectual gratification:
I have removed it.
what's the tag for Transwiki? The Romanian wikipedia on this subject has a much better explanation of the subdivisions they use. It even has pictures for the subdivisions. :) what's the tag you need to use for this?-- Marhawkman ( talk) 06:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to tag this article for copy editing, since the bulk of it seems to be written by someone whose first language is not English. Not to detract from their contributions, but this is an English-language article, after all :) Unvanquished ( talk) 18:56, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
As Chrawat, it was first applied to the inhabitants of the region, whence it passed in the form Krapat or Karpa as the name of the mountain range. – i'd say this is garbage, should be in quarantine – Criztu 12:26, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Chrawat people? They surely mean the Chrowats (many spellings occuring: hrvat, harvat), the ancestors of the Croats [5]. I'm not a specialist, but it looks to me like the larger stone tablet says 'choroathos'. The popular idea (and probably correct) about the Chrowats is that they were originally Iranian, and became Slavicized, like the Bulgars. According to a map, in 1000 ad there was a Chrowat kingdom in the area of what is now roughly southern Poland. I seriously doubt they would have given their name, or would have named, the Carpathian mountains, for a number of reasons: namely, because the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad, and the term 'Carpathian' occurs earlier than 165 ad. Also, I know of no movement from 'chrowat'>'carpath', and I know of no instance where the 'w/v' in 'chrowat' became a 'p', though the 'w/v' looks to have become a 'b' in some instances. There are many family names, such as 'krobath' and 'charvat' that are said to derive from 'chrowat'. 'Charvat' might yield 'charbat', but the family name 'charvat' (taken from contemporary phonebooks) is hardly evidence for the idea that 'Carpathian' derives from 'chrowat'. James 007 22:43, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Both the 'chrb' idea and the 'chrowat' idea date back to the anonymous contributor 12.255.158.77 who first started the article at 3:01 Mar 24 2002. The two different ideas are mutually exclusive: reading the original article, you can tell from the way the two ideas are presented that Anonymous did not realize that the two ideas are not compatible. Not only are they not compatible, one is impossible (chrb), and the other idea is also impossible, as the Chrowats first arrived in the Carpathian area in the 7th century ad. The internet being the way it is, this garbage posted by this Anonymous has been regurgitated and recycled across the internet, and you'll find a number of websites quoting the old Wikipedia article (from march 2002, until it was finally recently erased) as if it was accurate information. James 007 23:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The earliest mention that I've seen of the Chrowats in the Carpathian area is the mention of them in the 'Bavarian Geographon', allegedly written circa ad 666-890 (very vague), so the 7th century would be the earliest mention of the Croats in the area. The first documented use of 'Carpathian' is before 165 ad, and that predates the Iranian (?) Chrowat arrival in the 7th century ad, so obviously the quote is wrong. Even if, without a shred of evidence, you push back the date of their arrival in Europe by a vast number of centuries, there is still no evidence that 'Carpathian' would have anything to do with 'chrowat'. The similarity is not even that close, and it is a mere accident of history. James 007 23:27, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The etymology of 'chrowat/hrvat' is, according to this site, from Old Iranian 'hara', meaning 'defenders': [6]. I don't vouch for the credibility of either website. They seem to have been written by Croatian 'nationalists', so it presents their views. Some historians maybe don't support the Iranian origin of 'croat', I'm not sure. James 007 02:52, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
For those who understand German, the scientific derivation of the name of the Carpathians is in the German wikipedia article... Juro 02:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
From what I can read, the German article supports the connection with the Albanian word, karpe, an idea already mentioned in this article, and I think it says that the connection to Slavic 'chrb' is false. If so, sounds okay by me, and so the 'chrb' and the 'chrowat' speculations are erased according to policy, because they are totally false. James 007 03:05, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've verified the root that the Karpaten article mentions: *sker, also given as *ker, 'to cut, that which is cut, rough, broken off'. So words for 'rock' and 'rugged', 'rough', come from this root (note: I'm not saying those English words come from this root; I mean the ideas; some actual English words from this root are 'scarp', 'sharp', and 'scrap'). The Albanian word 'karpe' (though my book doesn't mention this) is, according to that article, from this root, so our English article should also mention the root. This is not the *ker (number 2; pertaining to loud sounds) that the Latin word crepare comes from. In most references, *sker is the prime entry, so you won't find *ker unless you look under *sker (in others words, you won't find it under 'k'). James 007 03:20, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The English word 'scarp' (from *sker) means, as a noun, 'a steep slope, cliff'; as a verb, 'to cut or make into a steep slope'. The English word is from Italian scarpa. The Italian word is of unknown origin (maybe from some Germanic tribes, because English 'sharp' was once 'scearp', also from *sker). I brought up this word 'scarp' because the meaning of 'steep cliff' is close to 'mountain'. James 007 03:50, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ashamw (
talk) 10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
and what do you say about origin of the word Carpathian not from Chrowat but from the name of people Haravathian who lived close to Azov Sea and Don River? I found some info that these are ancestors of white croats, who moved firstly from the region of Don river and then to the land of todays Croatia. For me sounds convincing.
Ashamw (
talk)
10:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
The city of Vác (Vacz in the text) is about 200km away from the Bakony mountain. So if Vác is OK., then the mountain's name is Börzsöny (or Pilis?), If the Bakony mountain is OK, then the name of the city is Veszprém. i will look after. Janos
Miles and meters looks awkward on the same page, especially abbreviation "m." looks confusing - meters or miles. Since Carpathian mountians are in Europe I would propose to use meters-kilometers, maybe also miles in brackets.
I have noticed that there are no maps of the Carpathian Mountains. Could someone add a picture of the location of these mountains on a map? darkraix13 23:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC) (Besides the one on the bottom) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkraix13 ( talk • contribs) 04:22, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
Review failed for WPPOLAND due to: insufficient inline citations.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:31, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Carpathian_mountain_ranges_naming. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The Geography section opens with the statement "The Carpathians begin on the Góra Świętego Marcina in Tarnów - northern edge of Pogórze Ciężkowickie". I've heard this before from Polish people, but I think it gives a very regional perspective. I have generally understood the range as being an arc running from just north of Bratislava (Slovakia) around to the Iron Gates on the Serbian - Romanian border. There is also the problem that the description does not mention the Serbian Carpathians. Does anyone have any thoughts on changing this part? Flyingsourcer ( talk) 15:06, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The people from former Czechoslovakia understand that the Carpathian Mountains start at the point where Morava River joins the Danube. Namely in Devin, a city borough of Bratislava, Slovakia. The hill that starts the entire Carphathian Mountains range is called Devínska Kobyla ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dev%C3%ADnska_Kobyla) That is the most western point of the Carpathian Mountains, which begins with Little Carpathians (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Carpathians). That is the point where the arch starts. Tarnow is where the Carpathians start in Poland, well into the arch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.64.20.144 ( talk) 19:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
There are also a few hills in Austria, which geologically belong to the Devin Carpatians range dominated by Devínska Kobyla. So in all truth, the arch of the Carpathian Mountains starts with Hundsheimer Berge located close to the city of Hainburg, Austria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.64.20.144 ( talk) 20:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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The Ural mountains are 2,500 kms in lenght, which would make the Carpathians the 3rd longest mountain range in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eni2dad ( talk • contribs) 13:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
I found my way to this article as a result of a reference to the Carpathians in a news article about Ukraine. My main purpose was to learn exactly where the mountains were with respect to the borders of Ukraine. However, the map of subdivisions which appears at the beginning of the article is no help at all. It might as well be a piece of modern art. Fortunately, there is a physical map later in the article, and there is also a version of the subdivision map with a legend and some labels. Still, the labels are cryptic. (Are they country codes perhaps?)
So, my request/suggestion is that someone with the experience to do so at least copies one of the later maps to the beginning of the article. Further, although there is an article about the Ukrainian Carpathians, it is only mentioned once and that link is rather buried. Could it be made more visible at the beginning of this article?
Thank you in advance, anyone who is able to improve this article. I know it takes time and effort. Humphrey Tribble ( talk) 06:48, 11 April 2022 (UTC)