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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 13 |
{{ Admin help}} If her gender and name has not been formally adjudicated yet why do we have to be so fearful about the fine points? What if it does not get approved by the authority having jurisdiction? She is only submitting the paperwork today, according to reliable news sources. Over in the Kendall Jenner there was a pending changes request to drop Bruce as her birth parent and change it to Caitlyn which I approved but somebody reverted it to say Bruce (now known as Caitlyn). I thought per the WP Arbitration Committee we are ordered to refer to her as she from the beginning of her life? In which case, Kendall was born to Kris and Caitlyn, not to Kris and Bruce. Decisions made regarding content on Caitlyn's page should apply to all the pages she is mentioned on. Oh, and that photo is hideous even for Bruce. I hope Caitlyn sends us some better ones. Checkingfax ( talk) 05:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
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adding the helpme tag in the middle of a discussion is not the proper use of the tag. Primefac ( talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in the article. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (she fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., she became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).So basically, if Jenner was a man when s/he fathered Kendall (and Kylie), the article should probably reflect that. So "Bruce (now Caitlyn)" is fine. Epic Genius ( talk) 01:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Is there a way to move the info box to the left so her infobox photo faces the text per MOS:IMAGES? Checkingfax ( talk) 04:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
In the personal life section, the following sentence appears to be inacurrate "Kim Howe, an animal rights activist and actress, was killed when Jenner's SUV ran into Howe's car which had just run into the back of another car". Howe's car was rear-ended by Jenner. However, it seems Howe never ran into any car before that ( Footage of the accident, Accident Reconstruction , picture when Jenner's SUV hit Howe's car). You might also add that Jenner's SUV ran into a second car. Could someone with the ability to edit semi-protected article take care of this ? MaccouM ( talk) 10:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
My take is that until we have a definitive account of what happened, we should just say that accounts have varied. Barte ( talk) 16:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)Initially, investigators said Howe rear-ended Steindorff’s Prius and then Jenner hit Howe’s Lexus. But Steindorff's attorney, Robert Simon, has said the crash unfolded differently. After hitting the Lexus, Jenner’s SUV continued traveling and slammed into Steindorff’s car, Simon said. A law enforcement source, not authorized to discuss the investigation, said the evidence supports that version of events.
Thanks for the clarification, Barte. MaccouM ( talk) 17:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
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Caitlyn Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I believe that Caitlyn has been female for long enough now for it to be easy to find a picture of her as a female. She is no longer 'Bruce' and has fully transitioned into life as a woman, Caitlyn. Therefore I think it would be fair and decent to change the picture on this page to one of Caitlyn and not Bruce. She has been a very brave individual and has been through an awful lot, let's show her the respect she deserves. 94.1.241.37 ( talk) 11:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
First of all, it is repulsive that the Wikipedia editors are laughing off the disgust of users just because they feel they are superior because they are cisgendered straight white males. Secondly, it is clear at how transphobic the aforementioned Wikipedia editors (who believe themselves to be gods, no less!) are because they refuse to even try to find an appropriate image and rather hold on to the image of a male Jenner as they cannot accept CAITLYN MARIE as a WOMAN, something that she ALWAYS WAS - YES EVEN WHEN SHE WON THE OLYMPICS! Thirdly, was it that hard to find a beautiful image of Caitlyn? Here you go: http://cdn3.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/675x380/2015/06/caitlyn_jenner_vf.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 05:52, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Would it be okay to have this? Where My Country Gone? makes multiple references to Jenner's driving (runs over a woman at start and end and people ignore and keep cheering) and being able to link directly to where it is discussed in the article would be helpful for considering the incident at the article's talk page.
I don't recall Stunning and Brave making reference to this but its strong focus on Jenner seems worth a mention. Maybe in an "influence on culture" section or "depictions in media" perhaps? 64.228.91.102 ( talk) 18:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Stunning and Brave has Caitlyn Jenner at the center of the plot, complete with the title. The joke continues on the second episode, where she bookends the episode with her driving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:15, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
More bad faith discussion re: the image. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 03:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
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So... there was a lovely pic of sweet Cait there - that made me ever so happy... and now there's the offensive and icky Bruce pic?! There's an available pic of Cait that DOESN'T MISGENDER HER, yet you all choose to go with the offensive one? Is Wikipedia trying to insult the entire trans community in this infantile act? Please change the image back to the picture of CAITLYN! Bruce is ONE! Your straight, white, cisgender hero is GONE! He never existed! Cait is all that there is and ever was! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 06:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
How DARE you all accuse me of making those edits! I came in one day and was delighted to see a post transition pic! Then it changed back to icky Bruce (who never existed!) and all I did was ask an innocent question on what happened to it. Now I get attacked for my identity and my dedication to Cait? Not only that, but the blame is put on me!? What is this, Nazi Germany!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 23:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Gawd. Is it possible to collapse this waste of bandwidth filled with histrionics and off-topic ranting? Not to mention insults and assumptions in regard to the article subject (has to be against BLP policy, isn't it)? If allowable, I'd appreciate someone collapsing this (my comments here make me "involved", I believe). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
Fake rumors from spoof site. Collapsed by Softlavender ( talk) 22:30, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
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Back to Bruce Well, as "she" no longer feels like a woman and wants people to call "her" Bruce, I guess that it is time for this to go back to the birth name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.63.66 ( talk) 10:39, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
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Bad faith inflammatory comments EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 06:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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Should it be pointed out that Bruce Jenner is both a transgenderist and a lesbian? He's said that he still is attracted to women, even though he has become a woman. That makes him a lesbian as well as a transvestite, surely? I know that LTGB covers both, but should it not be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A04:5D00:11:103:6190:481F:928E:2369 ( talk) 16:10, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
This is THE MOST offensive thing that I've seen in this section to date, and trust me there have been a lot of offensive things here! How dare you call Cait a transvestite or a lesbian! Your usage of those words are derogatory, to say the least. So please apologize to Caitlyn and me for being extremely offensive. Don't you realize the emotional harm that you're causing? Not only that, but your clear disrespect in even attempting to get the terms right is horrifying. What the hell is a transgenderist!? That is just disgusting of you to be so offensive. Please Wikipedia owners, fix this. This page represents hope for so many young transgender people, if they come on and see THAT - just imagine how they'd feel! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 00:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
Comment: I'm not sure that this section was started to cause trouble. People are commonly confused about sexual orientation and gender identity, and the difference between them, as made clear by Jenner in the quoted comment above. They are also commonly confused about the difference between "transvestite" and " transgender," or do not know that "transvestite" is commonly considered derogatory; and given that "transvestite" is a part of the transgender umbrella (for example, people who identify as a transvestite can validly call themselves transgender), that surely adds to the confusion. Anyway, per my comments above in this section, I tweaked the text in the article. Flyer22 ( talk) 22:30, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The talk page is a place for specific suggestions to improve the article, not hypotheticals designed to irritate people. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 07:07, 25 October 2015 (UTC) |
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If he decides to turn into a man again... ...do we change it back to "he" instead of "she" in the article? Jørgen88 ( talk) 06:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC) |
Please see the FAQ |
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So I did a little search (no idea why the mods here didn't do it themselves since it's SO EASY) and I found some free to use pics of Cait! Here's a gorgeous image of her in something sporty: https://flic. kr/p/xPxWr7 And here's Cait in a classy gown: https://flic. kr/p/wpF5ai Anyway, I think we should have the main profile pic as Cait in the mini-skirt because girlfriend is rocking that look! Then somewhere a little further in the article, we can put her in the classy gown. The most important thing is that we rid the article of that horrendous image of that disgusting MAN. Caitlyn is not a man and that picture is like this horrible reminder of the person that she never was! Offensive much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 17:14, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Excuse me? I don't understand. If that website FLICKr is banned from Wikipedia, then why did the thing above this post say to use FLICKr to find pictures of Cait? And I didn't see that all rights reserved garbage on that page. They are new pics of Cait that I never saw before, so I just assumed they were good to go on Wikipedia! Can't you all just buy the rights? The pic of Cait in a mini-skirt is so pretty, we need to get that one! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 17:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
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Just plodding around the web, I found this picture of Caitlyn: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132177716@N08/18544239191. It's on Flickr, is licensed CC BY 2.0, which is an acceptable free license. And has been widely used and credited to the photographer (assuming Frank is the photographer). Any chance of our using it in the infobox? Barte ( talk) 16:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
That is a lovely image that I've never seen before. Please can we use it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.168.163 ( talk • contribs)
Could we link Janae Marie Kroc in the see also? Beyond having in common being a transgender athlete, Kroc chose the same middle name as Cait and transitioned a few months later, which I think establishes a notable connection. Cait is linked in Janae's page already. 64.228.90.87 ( talk) 23:29, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Several Wikipedia articles have this kind of section, maybe it would be a good place to regroup some stuff like the South Park episodes and similar events? Maybe even the Wheathies Box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
The article would be enhanced by a current photo of Caitlyn in the infobox.
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Caitlyn Jenner be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Thank you. Checkingfax ( talk) 09:54, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
We've gone back and forth on this, but I think the case for it is compelling and I've restored Bruce Jenner to the lead sentence, in bold. This was the name Caitlyn went by for most of her career, from her Olympic accomplishments to (as the entry points out) her company, "Bruce Jenner Aviation". The name "Bruce Jenner" appears six times in the entry, and it appears in 51 of our references in the cited titles, alone, and presumably all of the articles themselves, prior to her transition. Moreover, per
MOS:BOLD, boldface should be used to identify terms in the first couple of paragraphs of an article, or at the beginning of a section of an article, which are the targets of redirects to the article or section...
. That's the case here: a search on "Bruce Jenner" goes to Caitlyn Jenner, and, per
WP:R#PLA: We follow the "principle of least astonishment"—after following a redirect, the reader's first question is likely to be: "hang on ... I wanted to read about this. Why has the link taken me to that?" Make it clear to the reader that they have arrived in the right place.
Barte (
talk)
05:11, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
formerly William Bruce Jenner or Bruce Jenner, October 28, 1949as it now stands works for me. Barte ( talk) 13:56, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Can't we do better than this? It is clumsy. And, why not put in the cutoff month/year? Checkingfax ( talk) 20:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Since Mark Miller's division of this material (see Talk:Caitlyn Jenner/Archive 8#Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again), there have been issues with the division. That is seen with this this, this, this, this and this edit. WP:Pinging Checkingfax and Nightscream, since these edits concern them and me. I started this section for more discussion of the current division setup. If editors feel that the current division setup is fine, we'll continue with that. And for why there is a division setup, do read enough of the "Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again" discussion I linked to in this paragraph. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Update: I meant to state this earlier, but I that think this and this edit by Television fan ( talk · contribs) acts as sort of a compromise and/or solution to the division of the content. It makes it so that it is clear that the Personal life content about the gender aspect is more so about coming out, which means that the Gender transition section is more so about the transition and aftermath of coming out. Of course, it still remains that the Gender transition section is mainly about the media attention the coming out aspect received. So the division can still be problematic in a chronological sense when updating the Personal life section with post-gender transition material. So this is part of why I suggested the change of heading aspect that I suggested above. Flyer22 ( talk) 23:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
A recent discussion of MOS:IDENTITY closed with the recommendation that Wikipedia's policy on transgender individuals be revisited.
Two threads have been opened at the Village Pump:Policy. The first addresses how the Manual of Style should instruct editors to refer to transgender people in articles about themselves (which name, which pronoun, etc.). The second addresses how to instruct editors to refer to transgender people when they are mentioned in passing in other articles. Your participation is welcome. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 03:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Caitlyn Jenner be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
In good faith, Alvandria added a new image of Caitlyn. The image is from the ESPYs and by Kevin Winter and available on a Flickr account named Kevin Winters Photography . It's been used on other media sources (e.g., USA Today) and gives Winters credit for image. However, the Flickr account is brand new and does not seem verified. I'm not convinced the Flickr account is legit and thus the image may not be free. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 17:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
What if we moved her Vanity Fair image to the infobox and moved her 2012 image to the left side of the body so her face is facing the text? Cheers! ... Checkingfax ( Talk ) 04:20, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2015_October_18#File:Jenner_on_Wheaties_cereal_box.jpg. -- Softlavender ( talk) 17:28, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
It has been suggested that perhaps removing the image of "Bruce" prior to the gender transition is best for the article now. It has also been suggested that the vanity fair image could be moved to the infobox? Thoughts?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 04:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
References
{{u|
Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
07:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)I have semiprotected this talk page for 2 weeks due to the IP comments, which were unambiguously inappropriate. Separately, I am not alone in feeling that an image of Jenner in her former gender should not serve as the primary identifying image - this is at risk of being perceived as a deliberate snub, and I know that the Wikipedia community in general is very accepting of LGBT people and would not, I am sure, want to be seen as engaging in a photographic form of deadnaming. Guy ( Help!) 05:51, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Move her 2012 image down to the body where it fits and where it can be left aligned to face the text. Kill two birds with one stone. Cheers! ... Checkingfax ( Talk ) 21:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
First off why do we sensationalize it as a fatal car crash when no one tied to Caitlyn was even involved. I think just "2015 driving collision" would do. Then this auto accident is just as big as both her marriages and gender transition section. There is no way this incident should be on equal par with either of those sections. Missruption ( talk) 23:16, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
why no mention of the victims that died due to Caitlyn Jenner's driving? Manslaughter charges are a big issue, no?Just noting it here, but I'm not clear about the comment, as Kim Howe is mentioned and no manslaughter charges were filed. Am I missing something? Barte ( talk) 00:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
More trolling |
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The following discussion has been closed by IgnorantArmies. Please do not modify it. |
After the forum was shut down due to an overload of transphobic hate, one of Cait's biggest fans is back and ready to fight for what's right. Unlike those hooligans who caused this page to be frozen, I will remain calm, yet furious. 1) This article is crammed full of "Jenner" instead of female pronouns. WTF? I was scolded by a rather rude person about using the same repeatedly to start sentences. That person insisted that doing so (as the article currently is) is repetitive and "boring" and should not be done in the article. So, why is it being done right now? Some paragraphs only have "Jenner" and very rarely use female pronouns. This is especially true in the sports sections. It's clear that SOMEONE wants to refrain from using FEMALE pronouns when it comes to Cait's success in the Olympics. Honeys, listen up, girls can excel at sports. Cait WAS A GIRL and ALWAYS WAS A GIRL during the Olympics. So go on and sprinkle some female pronouns in those sections please so that this article doesn't come across as transphobic and triggering to those who may read it. 2) The picture situation. Last time I checked, that icky picture of gross Bruce was gone. Why is it back? I thought it was agreed that NO PICTURE was better than a picture of someone who doesn't exist? Please, fix this. It's offensive to the entire LGBTQ community and is very triggering. 3) I stated this before, but alas it was IGNORED by several Wikipedia personnel (probably due to their transphobic attitudes). However, I have returned with PROOF that Caitlyn is indeed The GLAMOUR WOMAN OF THE YEAR: http://www.glamour.com/inspired/women-of-the-year So please include that in the article and stop trying to hide facts. Please and thank you, hon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 07:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC) |
Worth mentioning in passing? Seems to be gaining traction in the media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
So another concerned Cait fan had to deal with being silenced by some transphobes. All that person was trying to do was tell you all to add Cait as GLAMOUR WOMAN OF THE YEAR WHICH SHE IS!!!!!! Since when did Wikipedia ignore facts????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.169.163 ( talk) 00:22, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Is that really needed? Do those timelines and sections have to really be about the career subjects? Is that true of those sections now? Would it be better to broaden the scope of those sections by title?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 08:25, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Yup, Queen Cait's going to be the GLAMOUR Mag WOMAN OF THE YEAR! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3264919/Another-award-shelf-Caitlyn-Jenner-set-honored-Glamour-magazine-s-Woman-Year-taking-secret-photoshoot-December-issue.html
So can we please have this added to the article, kthnx bai! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 01:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
It should be noted that this person is in reality NOT a woman (i.e., has not undergone sex reassignment surgery, retains male genitalia, and so on), and at any rate, even if this person IS to be regarded as a female, has not (to this point, Nov 2015) been a woman for an ENTIRE year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.114.93 ( talk) 05:17, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
The rest of the family articles (I believe there are seven of them) were pretty well in harmony and stable regarding the formerly/then-Bruce aspect (i.e.- Brandon was born to Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce) and Linda Thompson).
An IP editor is stirring the pot here. We're going to have to work hard to keep the peace and maintain article harmony.
What is the status of the WP:VPP amendment to MOS:IDENTITY? Checkingfax ( talk) 07:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I recently made an edit removing "formerly Bruce Jenner" in the first sentence. I thought it was redundant, given the "born" phrase right before it. It was reverted by Naue7. I admit, I should have looked at the talk page before making that edit, and I'm sympathetic to the concern of keeping pages consistent. However, I still think the redundancy is undesirable. Could we get rid of the "born" phrase instead? I feel like it's needlessly emphasizing her former identity, and is just cumbersome to read. It might also be relevant to note that the intro sentence for Chelsea Manning lists her old name just once. Maybe consistency among articles about trans people should be valued as highly as consistency among articles about the Jenner family. But I could be off-base here. What do you think? Montgolfière ( talk) 03:17, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Please see the FAQ | ||
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Out of respect to her transition, it would best to change the main photo of Caitlyn to a recent (not male) one. For example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Caitlyn_Jenner.jpg Mcsquirley ( talk) 03:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
PLEASE DO That pic is GORGEOUS! Please use it for lovely Cait's profile pick instead of the icky picture of Bruce - WHO DOESN'T EXIST AND NEVER DID! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.168.163 ( talk) 02:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC) |
Please see the FAQ |
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The following discussion has been closed by Inks.LWC. Please do not modify it. |
http://s3.gossipcop.com/up/2015/11/Caitlyn-Jenner-Pay-Cut-I-Am-Cait-201x300.jpg That image is courtesy Getty Images. I believe that should suffice for this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 07:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Alright... so you seem to have an issue with me (yes I remember you for defacing my talk page). Regardless of that, since I'm a big girl, I will tolerate you for the sake of her highness, Cait. So, I will explain so that maybe you can UNDERSTAND: http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2015/11/caitlyn-kris-kendall-jenner-victorias-secret-fashion-show-111015-4-375x560.jpg That image is being used commercially on several pages, with the label "Courtesy Getty Images". That means Wikipedia can use it too. Is it that hard to comprehend, sweetheart? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
You work for Wikipedia, you should call them and ask for permission. I did the hard work finding the picture! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 19:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 13 |
{{ Admin help}} If her gender and name has not been formally adjudicated yet why do we have to be so fearful about the fine points? What if it does not get approved by the authority having jurisdiction? She is only submitting the paperwork today, according to reliable news sources. Over in the Kendall Jenner there was a pending changes request to drop Bruce as her birth parent and change it to Caitlyn which I approved but somebody reverted it to say Bruce (now known as Caitlyn). I thought per the WP Arbitration Committee we are ordered to refer to her as she from the beginning of her life? In which case, Kendall was born to Kris and Caitlyn, not to Kris and Bruce. Decisions made regarding content on Caitlyn's page should apply to all the pages she is mentioned on. Oh, and that photo is hideous even for Bruce. I hope Caitlyn sends us some better ones. Checkingfax ( talk) 05:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | Please use the {{
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adding the helpme tag in the middle of a discussion is not the proper use of the tag. Primefac ( talk) 02:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. When a person's gender self-designation may come as a surprise to readers, explain it without overemphasis on first occurrence in the article. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Avoid confusing constructions (she fathered a child) by rewriting (e.g., she became a parent). Direct quotations may need to be handled as exceptions (in some cases adjusting the portion used may reduce apparent contradictions, and "[sic]" may be used where necessary).So basically, if Jenner was a man when s/he fathered Kendall (and Kylie), the article should probably reflect that. So "Bruce (now Caitlyn)" is fine. Epic Genius ( talk) 01:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Is there a way to move the info box to the left so her infobox photo faces the text per MOS:IMAGES? Checkingfax ( talk) 04:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
In the personal life section, the following sentence appears to be inacurrate "Kim Howe, an animal rights activist and actress, was killed when Jenner's SUV ran into Howe's car which had just run into the back of another car". Howe's car was rear-ended by Jenner. However, it seems Howe never ran into any car before that ( Footage of the accident, Accident Reconstruction , picture when Jenner's SUV hit Howe's car). You might also add that Jenner's SUV ran into a second car. Could someone with the ability to edit semi-protected article take care of this ? MaccouM ( talk) 10:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
My take is that until we have a definitive account of what happened, we should just say that accounts have varied. Barte ( talk) 16:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)Initially, investigators said Howe rear-ended Steindorff’s Prius and then Jenner hit Howe’s Lexus. But Steindorff's attorney, Robert Simon, has said the crash unfolded differently. After hitting the Lexus, Jenner’s SUV continued traveling and slammed into Steindorff’s car, Simon said. A law enforcement source, not authorized to discuss the investigation, said the evidence supports that version of events.
Thanks for the clarification, Barte. MaccouM ( talk) 17:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
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I believe that Caitlyn has been female for long enough now for it to be easy to find a picture of her as a female. She is no longer 'Bruce' and has fully transitioned into life as a woman, Caitlyn. Therefore I think it would be fair and decent to change the picture on this page to one of Caitlyn and not Bruce. She has been a very brave individual and has been through an awful lot, let's show her the respect she deserves. 94.1.241.37 ( talk) 11:33, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
First of all, it is repulsive that the Wikipedia editors are laughing off the disgust of users just because they feel they are superior because they are cisgendered straight white males. Secondly, it is clear at how transphobic the aforementioned Wikipedia editors (who believe themselves to be gods, no less!) are because they refuse to even try to find an appropriate image and rather hold on to the image of a male Jenner as they cannot accept CAITLYN MARIE as a WOMAN, something that she ALWAYS WAS - YES EVEN WHEN SHE WON THE OLYMPICS! Thirdly, was it that hard to find a beautiful image of Caitlyn? Here you go: http://cdn3.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/675x380/2015/06/caitlyn_jenner_vf.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 05:52, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Would it be okay to have this? Where My Country Gone? makes multiple references to Jenner's driving (runs over a woman at start and end and people ignore and keep cheering) and being able to link directly to where it is discussed in the article would be helpful for considering the incident at the article's talk page.
I don't recall Stunning and Brave making reference to this but its strong focus on Jenner seems worth a mention. Maybe in an "influence on culture" section or "depictions in media" perhaps? 64.228.91.102 ( talk) 18:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Stunning and Brave has Caitlyn Jenner at the center of the plot, complete with the title. The joke continues on the second episode, where she bookends the episode with her driving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:15, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
More bad faith discussion re: the image. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 03:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
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So... there was a lovely pic of sweet Cait there - that made me ever so happy... and now there's the offensive and icky Bruce pic?! There's an available pic of Cait that DOESN'T MISGENDER HER, yet you all choose to go with the offensive one? Is Wikipedia trying to insult the entire trans community in this infantile act? Please change the image back to the picture of CAITLYN! Bruce is ONE! Your straight, white, cisgender hero is GONE! He never existed! Cait is all that there is and ever was! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 06:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
How DARE you all accuse me of making those edits! I came in one day and was delighted to see a post transition pic! Then it changed back to icky Bruce (who never existed!) and all I did was ask an innocent question on what happened to it. Now I get attacked for my identity and my dedication to Cait? Not only that, but the blame is put on me!? What is this, Nazi Germany!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 23:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Gawd. Is it possible to collapse this waste of bandwidth filled with histrionics and off-topic ranting? Not to mention insults and assumptions in regard to the article subject (has to be against BLP policy, isn't it)? If allowable, I'd appreciate someone collapsing this (my comments here make me "involved", I believe). -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
Fake rumors from spoof site. Collapsed by Softlavender ( talk) 22:30, 14 October 2015 (UTC) |
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Back to Bruce Well, as "she" no longer feels like a woman and wants people to call "her" Bruce, I guess that it is time for this to go back to the birth name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.63.66 ( talk) 10:39, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
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Bad faith inflammatory comments EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 06:14, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
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Should it be pointed out that Bruce Jenner is both a transgenderist and a lesbian? He's said that he still is attracted to women, even though he has become a woman. That makes him a lesbian as well as a transvestite, surely? I know that LTGB covers both, but should it not be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A04:5D00:11:103:6190:481F:928E:2369 ( talk) 16:10, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
This is THE MOST offensive thing that I've seen in this section to date, and trust me there have been a lot of offensive things here! How dare you call Cait a transvestite or a lesbian! Your usage of those words are derogatory, to say the least. So please apologize to Caitlyn and me for being extremely offensive. Don't you realize the emotional harm that you're causing? Not only that, but your clear disrespect in even attempting to get the terms right is horrifying. What the hell is a transgenderist!? That is just disgusting of you to be so offensive. Please Wikipedia owners, fix this. This page represents hope for so many young transgender people, if they come on and see THAT - just imagine how they'd feel! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 00:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC) |
Comment: I'm not sure that this section was started to cause trouble. People are commonly confused about sexual orientation and gender identity, and the difference between them, as made clear by Jenner in the quoted comment above. They are also commonly confused about the difference between "transvestite" and " transgender," or do not know that "transvestite" is commonly considered derogatory; and given that "transvestite" is a part of the transgender umbrella (for example, people who identify as a transvestite can validly call themselves transgender), that surely adds to the confusion. Anyway, per my comments above in this section, I tweaked the text in the article. Flyer22 ( talk) 22:30, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
The talk page is a place for specific suggestions to improve the article, not hypotheticals designed to irritate people. PeterTheFourth ( talk) 07:07, 25 October 2015 (UTC) |
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If he decides to turn into a man again... ...do we change it back to "he" instead of "she" in the article? Jørgen88 ( talk) 06:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC) |
Please see the FAQ |
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So I did a little search (no idea why the mods here didn't do it themselves since it's SO EASY) and I found some free to use pics of Cait! Here's a gorgeous image of her in something sporty: https://flic. kr/p/xPxWr7 And here's Cait in a classy gown: https://flic. kr/p/wpF5ai Anyway, I think we should have the main profile pic as Cait in the mini-skirt because girlfriend is rocking that look! Then somewhere a little further in the article, we can put her in the classy gown. The most important thing is that we rid the article of that horrendous image of that disgusting MAN. Caitlyn is not a man and that picture is like this horrible reminder of the person that she never was! Offensive much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 17:14, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Excuse me? I don't understand. If that website FLICKr is banned from Wikipedia, then why did the thing above this post say to use FLICKr to find pictures of Cait? And I didn't see that all rights reserved garbage on that page. They are new pics of Cait that I never saw before, so I just assumed they were good to go on Wikipedia! Can't you all just buy the rights? The pic of Cait in a mini-skirt is so pretty, we need to get that one! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 17:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
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Just plodding around the web, I found this picture of Caitlyn: https://www.flickr.com/photos/132177716@N08/18544239191. It's on Flickr, is licensed CC BY 2.0, which is an acceptable free license. And has been widely used and credited to the photographer (assuming Frank is the photographer). Any chance of our using it in the infobox? Barte ( talk) 16:36, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
That is a lovely image that I've never seen before. Please can we use it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.168.163 ( talk • contribs)
Could we link Janae Marie Kroc in the see also? Beyond having in common being a transgender athlete, Kroc chose the same middle name as Cait and transitioned a few months later, which I think establishes a notable connection. Cait is linked in Janae's page already. 64.228.90.87 ( talk) 23:29, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Several Wikipedia articles have this kind of section, maybe it would be a good place to regroup some stuff like the South Park episodes and similar events? Maybe even the Wheathies Box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:26, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
The article would be enhanced by a current photo of Caitlyn in the infobox.
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Caitlyn Jenner be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
Thank you. Checkingfax ( talk) 09:54, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
We've gone back and forth on this, but I think the case for it is compelling and I've restored Bruce Jenner to the lead sentence, in bold. This was the name Caitlyn went by for most of her career, from her Olympic accomplishments to (as the entry points out) her company, "Bruce Jenner Aviation". The name "Bruce Jenner" appears six times in the entry, and it appears in 51 of our references in the cited titles, alone, and presumably all of the articles themselves, prior to her transition. Moreover, per
MOS:BOLD, boldface should be used to identify terms in the first couple of paragraphs of an article, or at the beginning of a section of an article, which are the targets of redirects to the article or section...
. That's the case here: a search on "Bruce Jenner" goes to Caitlyn Jenner, and, per
WP:R#PLA: We follow the "principle of least astonishment"—after following a redirect, the reader's first question is likely to be: "hang on ... I wanted to read about this. Why has the link taken me to that?" Make it clear to the reader that they have arrived in the right place.
Barte (
talk)
05:11, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
formerly William Bruce Jenner or Bruce Jenner, October 28, 1949as it now stands works for me. Barte ( talk) 13:56, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Can't we do better than this? It is clumsy. And, why not put in the cutoff month/year? Checkingfax ( talk) 20:52, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
Since Mark Miller's division of this material (see Talk:Caitlyn Jenner/Archive 8#Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again), there have been issues with the division. That is seen with this this, this, this, this and this edit. WP:Pinging Checkingfax and Nightscream, since these edits concern them and me. I started this section for more discussion of the current division setup. If editors feel that the current division setup is fine, we'll continue with that. And for why there is a division setup, do read enough of the "Having the Gender transition section as part of the Personal life section....again" discussion I linked to in this paragraph. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Update: I meant to state this earlier, but I that think this and this edit by Television fan ( talk · contribs) acts as sort of a compromise and/or solution to the division of the content. It makes it so that it is clear that the Personal life content about the gender aspect is more so about coming out, which means that the Gender transition section is more so about the transition and aftermath of coming out. Of course, it still remains that the Gender transition section is mainly about the media attention the coming out aspect received. So the division can still be problematic in a chronological sense when updating the Personal life section with post-gender transition material. So this is part of why I suggested the change of heading aspect that I suggested above. Flyer22 ( talk) 23:16, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
A recent discussion of MOS:IDENTITY closed with the recommendation that Wikipedia's policy on transgender individuals be revisited.
Two threads have been opened at the Village Pump:Policy. The first addresses how the Manual of Style should instruct editors to refer to transgender people in articles about themselves (which name, which pronoun, etc.). The second addresses how to instruct editors to refer to transgender people when they are mentioned in passing in other articles. Your participation is welcome. Darkfrog24 ( talk) 03:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Caitlyn Jenner be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
In good faith, Alvandria added a new image of Caitlyn. The image is from the ESPYs and by Kevin Winter and available on a Flickr account named Kevin Winters Photography . It's been used on other media sources (e.g., USA Today) and gives Winters credit for image. However, the Flickr account is brand new and does not seem verified. I'm not convinced the Flickr account is legit and thus the image may not be free. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 17:46, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
What if we moved her Vanity Fair image to the infobox and moved her 2012 image to the left side of the body so her face is facing the text? Cheers! ... Checkingfax ( Talk ) 04:20, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion/2015_October_18#File:Jenner_on_Wheaties_cereal_box.jpg. -- Softlavender ( talk) 17:28, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
It has been suggested that perhaps removing the image of "Bruce" prior to the gender transition is best for the article now. It has also been suggested that the vanity fair image could be moved to the infobox? Thoughts?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 04:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
References
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Checkingfax}} {
Talk}
07:13, 21 October 2015 (UTC)I have semiprotected this talk page for 2 weeks due to the IP comments, which were unambiguously inappropriate. Separately, I am not alone in feeling that an image of Jenner in her former gender should not serve as the primary identifying image - this is at risk of being perceived as a deliberate snub, and I know that the Wikipedia community in general is very accepting of LGBT people and would not, I am sure, want to be seen as engaging in a photographic form of deadnaming. Guy ( Help!) 05:51, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Move her 2012 image down to the body where it fits and where it can be left aligned to face the text. Kill two birds with one stone. Cheers! ... Checkingfax ( Talk ) 21:23, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
First off why do we sensationalize it as a fatal car crash when no one tied to Caitlyn was even involved. I think just "2015 driving collision" would do. Then this auto accident is just as big as both her marriages and gender transition section. There is no way this incident should be on equal par with either of those sections. Missruption ( talk) 23:16, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
why no mention of the victims that died due to Caitlyn Jenner's driving? Manslaughter charges are a big issue, no?Just noting it here, but I'm not clear about the comment, as Kim Howe is mentioned and no manslaughter charges were filed. Am I missing something? Barte ( talk) 00:26, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
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After the forum was shut down due to an overload of transphobic hate, one of Cait's biggest fans is back and ready to fight for what's right. Unlike those hooligans who caused this page to be frozen, I will remain calm, yet furious. 1) This article is crammed full of "Jenner" instead of female pronouns. WTF? I was scolded by a rather rude person about using the same repeatedly to start sentences. That person insisted that doing so (as the article currently is) is repetitive and "boring" and should not be done in the article. So, why is it being done right now? Some paragraphs only have "Jenner" and very rarely use female pronouns. This is especially true in the sports sections. It's clear that SOMEONE wants to refrain from using FEMALE pronouns when it comes to Cait's success in the Olympics. Honeys, listen up, girls can excel at sports. Cait WAS A GIRL and ALWAYS WAS A GIRL during the Olympics. So go on and sprinkle some female pronouns in those sections please so that this article doesn't come across as transphobic and triggering to those who may read it. 2) The picture situation. Last time I checked, that icky picture of gross Bruce was gone. Why is it back? I thought it was agreed that NO PICTURE was better than a picture of someone who doesn't exist? Please, fix this. It's offensive to the entire LGBTQ community and is very triggering. 3) I stated this before, but alas it was IGNORED by several Wikipedia personnel (probably due to their transphobic attitudes). However, I have returned with PROOF that Caitlyn is indeed The GLAMOUR WOMAN OF THE YEAR: http://www.glamour.com/inspired/women-of-the-year So please include that in the article and stop trying to hide facts. Please and thank you, hon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 07:07, 30 October 2015 (UTC) |
Worth mentioning in passing? Seems to be gaining traction in the media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.177.18.229 ( talk) 00:15, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
So another concerned Cait fan had to deal with being silenced by some transphobes. All that person was trying to do was tell you all to add Cait as GLAMOUR WOMAN OF THE YEAR WHICH SHE IS!!!!!! Since when did Wikipedia ignore facts????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.169.163 ( talk) 00:22, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
Is that really needed? Do those timelines and sections have to really be about the career subjects? Is that true of those sections now? Would it be better to broaden the scope of those sections by title?-- Mark Miller ( talk) 08:25, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Yup, Queen Cait's going to be the GLAMOUR Mag WOMAN OF THE YEAR! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3264919/Another-award-shelf-Caitlyn-Jenner-set-honored-Glamour-magazine-s-Woman-Year-taking-secret-photoshoot-December-issue.html
So can we please have this added to the article, kthnx bai! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 01:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
It should be noted that this person is in reality NOT a woman (i.e., has not undergone sex reassignment surgery, retains male genitalia, and so on), and at any rate, even if this person IS to be regarded as a female, has not (to this point, Nov 2015) been a woman for an ENTIRE year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.114.93 ( talk) 05:17, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
The rest of the family articles (I believe there are seven of them) were pretty well in harmony and stable regarding the formerly/then-Bruce aspect (i.e.- Brandon was born to Caitlyn Jenner (then Bruce) and Linda Thompson).
An IP editor is stirring the pot here. We're going to have to work hard to keep the peace and maintain article harmony.
What is the status of the WP:VPP amendment to MOS:IDENTITY? Checkingfax ( talk) 07:57, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I recently made an edit removing "formerly Bruce Jenner" in the first sentence. I thought it was redundant, given the "born" phrase right before it. It was reverted by Naue7. I admit, I should have looked at the talk page before making that edit, and I'm sympathetic to the concern of keeping pages consistent. However, I still think the redundancy is undesirable. Could we get rid of the "born" phrase instead? I feel like it's needlessly emphasizing her former identity, and is just cumbersome to read. It might also be relevant to note that the intro sentence for Chelsea Manning lists her old name just once. Maybe consistency among articles about trans people should be valued as highly as consistency among articles about the Jenner family. But I could be off-base here. What do you think? Montgolfière ( talk) 03:17, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
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Out of respect to her transition, it would best to change the main photo of Caitlyn to a recent (not male) one. For example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Caitlyn_Jenner.jpg Mcsquirley ( talk) 03:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
PLEASE DO That pic is GORGEOUS! Please use it for lovely Cait's profile pick instead of the icky picture of Bruce - WHO DOESN'T EXIST AND NEVER DID! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.79.168.163 ( talk) 02:41, 10 November 2015 (UTC) |
Please see the FAQ |
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http://s3.gossipcop.com/up/2015/11/Caitlyn-Jenner-Pay-Cut-I-Am-Cait-201x300.jpg That image is courtesy Getty Images. I believe that should suffice for this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 07:43, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Alright... so you seem to have an issue with me (yes I remember you for defacing my talk page). Regardless of that, since I'm a big girl, I will tolerate you for the sake of her highness, Cait. So, I will explain so that maybe you can UNDERSTAND: http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2015/11/caitlyn-kris-kendall-jenner-victorias-secret-fashion-show-111015-4-375x560.jpg That image is being used commercially on several pages, with the label "Courtesy Getty Images". That means Wikipedia can use it too. Is it that hard to comprehend, sweetheart? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 18:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
You work for Wikipedia, you should call them and ask for permission. I did the hard work finding the picture! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.2.244.59 ( talk) 19:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
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