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in early life it says "Jenner has a younger sister named Nicole." with a citation but this is wrong so could it be changed to say he has two sisters named Lisa and Pam and the source is when bruce's mother gave an interview with the dailymail and gave them pictures and they are mentioned a few times in the interview http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2830520/Bruce-Jenner-s-mother-not-fan-son-s-new-effeminate-look-lets-rip-controlling-monster-ex-Kris-no-holds-barred-interview.html she also claims the jenner family is descended from Edward Jenner and that could be added also sort of backed up by a tweet from kylie jenner saying he's a relative [1] but is stated as an ancestor in the article and i also saw it on ancestry.com but since i don't have a tree you can say the family claim 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 23:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
it should not matter if it is the dailymail as i have said it is an interview just like u may object to celebuzz but his sister lisa gave an interview to them [2] his mother has provided proof to the dailymail of their existence and it is near impossible to find a better source online because they are out of the limelight if you read that other celebuzz interview 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 01:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
There are quite a few sources confirming this, though they all point back to People magazine. Time will tell soon enough. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 15:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
"Bruce Jenner to discuss transition in Diane Sawyer interview" http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bruce-jenner-to-discuss-transition-in-diane-sawyer-interview TechBear | Talk | Contributions 05:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
his father was CANADIAN!!! http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=dowfam3&id=I315775 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 21:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
was a joke but mainly pointing that fact out and could be added to early life if u get a better source on the family tree also those examples u gave were terrible 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 00:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC) This page is here to discuss issues regarding the main entry. This isn't a proper forum for "jokes." ( 2601:1:580:1A8:8CA5:B9BA:8098:3E06 ( talk) 23:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)) You do realize that "joke" is almost a year old? The targets of your wrath have long since moved on. 75.150.163.113 ( talk) 01:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC) And perhaps you should realize that this page is reserved for discussion as to how to improve the article, not a forum for your irrelevant, simplistic and pointless comments! If you want to make silly comments, join the IMDB forums. ( Sellpink ( talk) 22:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)) You're not improving the article by insulting my choice of words. It would be an improvement if you got over your self-importance. 75.150.163.113 ( talk) 04:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
Just a heads up for everyone here, I plan on dropping the protection level back down to indefinite semiprotection late tomorrow evening, roughly 32 hours from now. I apologize for not leaving a note sooner stating my intentions - I didn't want to set a fixed duration when I protected it so that it wouldn't be completely unprotected when the full protection expired. I originally planned on removing full protection after about three days, but the request at WP:RFPP had asked for one week, which I agreed was a little better. This will end up being just a little bit short of one week. Thanks everyone. -- Bongwarrior ( talk) 19:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Can we change "the better part of two decades" to something less obtuse – e.g., "about fifteen years"? — BarrelProof ( talk) 05:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
No mainstream news outlet has reported that Jenner is transitioning yet, so obviously we shouldn't report that either. However, multiple major outlets have reported on the reports in other forms of media. The New York Times writes " Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female." The Washington Post writes " The evolving appearance of Jenner, the 65-year-old 1976 Olympic decathlon champion, has led to reports, most recently by Us Weekly, that the former athlete is in the midst of a 'transition from male to female.' " And so on. My question is, if multiple reliable sources see fit to at least report on the rumors, mightn't we report on them too? Something along the lines of "In late 2014 and early 2015, reports surfaced in tabloid magazines and other entertainment media that Jenner is undergoing a gender transition. Jenner has not confirmed the reports." And then maybe note the reports about the reality series and the Sawyer interview.
I'm all for respecting living people's privacy, but I don't think we need to hold back on writing about what even highly reputable sources like the Times and the Post consider to be fair game. We can respect Jenner's privacy without unnecessarily censoring ourselves. — PinkAmpers & (Je vous invite à me parler) 13:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Reporting on the reporting would require sources themselves reporting on the reporting. The subject of the articles in question is Jenner. No articles (that I am aware of) are written about the other articles as their topic. In this context, the articles are WP:PRIMARY and reporting on them would be WP:OR. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi all, just an admin note that I have edited through full-protection to remove a sentence that struck me as particularly BLP-problematic, about paparazzi being involved/not involved in the accident. My sense is that the text I removed gives the implication that Jenner has lied, and I prefer to err on the side of BLP in a case like that. I have no problem with the content being added back if it can be adapted to a less-problematic phrasing, or if consensus is reached that I'm being silly and the content is fine as-is. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! ( talk) 19:33, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I have no opinion in the content dispute that is driving all of this; my action here is solely administrative. If the sentence can be better-sourced or rephrased and a consensus is reached to add it back to the article, give me a ping and I will be happy to add it back if the article is still protected. Until affirmative consensus is reached that the content (in its current form or an adapted form) is not problematic, however, policy requires that we proactively err on the side of excluding it. 21:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
It was actually a quotation of the subheading of the title of the particular article. But this will all shake out in due course. We can all be patient; nothing to get upset about. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 22:13, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The info box says Jenner married Linda in 1982, the article says 1981. 140.209.60.162 ( talk) 15:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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In the infobox under "spouses", please change the date range below Linda Thompson from "1982-84" to "1981-84". See the above discussion for reasoning behind the edit request. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 22:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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I take issue with the article cited, Bacardi, Francesca (December 18, 2014). "Kris Jenner and Bruce Jenner's Divorce Finalized". E!. Retrieved January 29, 2015. #37 and the other articles because they incorrectly used legal terms. #37 specifically incorrectly states that the "divorce is finalized" when what the article should actually state is that the terms of the divorce were finalized. The actual process is that someone files for divorce via a Summons and Petition for Dissolution of Marriage. If the parties can agree on everything and no one contests the divorce, they file a Marital Settlement Agreement with terms of divorce. The divorce can only be finalized via a Divorce Judgement (or Judgement of Dissolution of Marriage) which a judge can only sign into effect if it's been at least 6 months and 1 day from the time the petition was filed.
Leave it to an entertainment writer to misunderstand the legal process! People can live apart for as long as they like, but are not legally separated until paperwork is filed. Please see the divorce overview page here: http://www.lacourt.org/selfhelp/divorceorseparation/SH_DS001.aspx I would be happy to come up with something myself, but can't do this because of the current block. Hopefully everything will turn out OK for Bruce.
Cherubino3 ( talk) 17:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Their divorce terms were finalized in December 2014, but it will not officially go into effect at least until March 23, 2015 due to a six-month state legal requirement. -- Frmorrison ( talk) 17:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The article currently says taht Jenner is getting a divorce from his current wife; how-ever, earlier, the article talks about a previous wife, going only so far as "As of February 1986 they were separated.[31] " They must have gotten divorced. Can't we get a source on that and put it in.?05:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)05:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC) 211.225.34.159 ( talk)
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edit request to
Bruce Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
My request is that the articles he/him/his pronouns when referring to Jenner be changed to she/her. The reason is that Jenner identifies as a woman. As such, she/her pronouns are appropriate. Intentionally misgendering her would be considered disrespectful and inaccurate. 2602:306:833F:EC80:918:75FC:F30F:A220 ( talk) 01:46, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Not done for now: - there are no
reliable sources as yet to support that. See the section above,
#When to start using female pronouns? -
Alison
❤
02:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I would like to request that we remove the recent car accident reporting. This article is appearing on Wikipedia's most-viewed article reports including WP:TOP25 and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-02-11/Traffic report. Viewers coming to the article will be deceived into thinking the article and subject is popular because of the car accident (which is the only recent event we deal with at the moment), which viewcount analysis shows is not true. Traffic greatly increased in the days prior to the car accident, due to an issue which I see is currently being held from being covered in the article content. The car accident was an unfortunate event in Jenner's life, but there are millions of car accidents where someone dies, we do not report on them all.-- Milowent • has spoken 18:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
This request and the rationale for it are ridiculous. The car accident was/is noteworthy, and the TOP25 stuff is completely irrelevant. Townlake ( talk) 03:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Dea
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20:22, 14 February 2015 (UTC)From the Olympics section, emphasis mine:
"In the era before professionalism was allowed in athletics this kind of training was unheard of."
What exactly does this mean? Athletes in general, much less Olympic athletes, didn't train to improve themselves?
- Lafin T. Jack 04:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LafinJack ( talk • contribs)
It is perhaps notable that Jenner's 1976 world record in the decathlon stood as an American record until 1991, when it was broken by Dan O'Brien. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdominal Pain ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Trackinfo, except that the word "stood" has been repeated. — Abdominal Pain ( talk) 22:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC).
The first sentence of the lead says he is a "current motivational speaker" and a "businessman". Is he really? I can't find any mention of motivational speaking in the article. Searching the article for "motiv" and "spea" yields nothing. I also can't find any description of current business activities. I am removing that. No source is cited. — BarrelProof ( talk) 00:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
She should be categorized as a woman now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.129.14.89 ( talk) 00:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
¶ I would very much like to see a segment addressing Jenner's dramatic changes in appearance and the suspicion that he is transgendering or something similar. Sussmanbern ( talk) 17:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it seems she will be fully transgendering soon, shouldn't the article reflect this transgenderization status? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:252:d6d:5710:399f:c116:1ec1:400b ( talk) 00:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
People who still have any doubts or qualms about including Jenner's transgender identity in the article should see the New York Times op-ed on it by regular Times columnist Nicholas Kristof, 2/05/15. He gives plenty of reasons why Jenner's evidently imminent coming-out is a healthy thing for all of us in the circumstances, and comments on how Jenner's mother and step-daughter have told the press they're looking forward to it. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/nicholas-kristof-bruce-jenners-courage.html 24.90.203.188 ( talk) 05:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The male pronouns in this article are very offensive. 2601:2:5E00:6A3:1DA0:E80F:2DE1:45E4 ( talk) 05:04, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I would change it, but these edits [4] are from a user who has been purposely adding false information to articles. Just a heads up. Eik Corell ( talk) 19:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The article states "He hit a "home run" by achieving personal bests on the first day, turning his notorious second day into a gold medal coronation." There's nothing in the source that shows that the day was notorious nor is there anything on the web or elsewhere in the article showing that the day was notorious or known in any way for something bad. I removed the word "notorious" and it was reverted with no explanation. Why? What did Jenner do on that day that was notorious? Hagrinas ( talk) 20:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I found the Frequently asked questions area at Talk:Chelsea Manning helpful and covered some of these same issues as to when we use her new name and how things are reported. That might help people looking for the same information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Missruption ( talk • contribs) 23:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Family sources tell TMZ, Bruce told the klan he has kept his "true self" inside since he was a child, and even during the '76 Olympics -- when he was considered the greatest male athlete in the world -- in his head he was a woman." http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/16/bruce-jenner-transgender-sex-change-woman-kardashians-diane-sawyer/. "transition into becoming a woman will be chronicled in a docuseries that will air as early as May. Production and Jenner family sources tell us it will NOT premiere until "Keeping Up with the Kardashians" Season 10 has fully aired. The Sawyer interview is tricky. We're told Bruce wants to maintain enough mystery for his docuseries but use other media promotionally." http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/05/diane-sawyer-bruce-jenner-interview-sex-change/. There remains no reason why a FAQ wouldn't be helpful on this page. The subject is being discussed and hyped by Jenner herself in a promotional fashion. Look clueless in the article itself but at least answer the questions here. Missruption ( talk) 23:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
this situation is somewhat ironic. The current policies were put in place to protect trans people. basically the only thing that counts is direct statements from the person themselves. This is to prevent the issue where the NYT says "'John graduated when he was 28" and us having to follow those pronouns. There have been zero statements from Jenner themeself. There have been lots of rumors, speculation, and hearsay. Maybe (probably?) those rumors will turn out to be true. But until we have a statement from Jenner themselves nothing is going to change in this article, and all you are doing is wasting your and everyone else's time my making the same tired hashed out arguments that are not going to go anywhere. WP:DROPTHESTICK Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Some sources are citing that Jenner is in fact transitioning into a woman. Should we add this into Personal Life or wait until more sources poor in supporting this information? -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 02:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
For BLP concerns such as this, statements like you describe are insuccificent. but in any case, Variety doesn't even say that. it says "has generated considerable speculation in the tabloid press that he is on the verge of revealing he is transgender" a clearly insufficient "fact" for saying anything of substance about anyone. Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
According to this article, among multiple other articles, Bruce Jenner is in fact becoming a woman. He has already shaven his Adam's apple, although it is unknown if he is planning to get gender reassignment surgery. It will reportedly be announced on the show as well. So do you think it could possibly be written now, since The Daily Mail (in my opinion) is a reliable source? Nyazkilam ( talk) 18:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Cosmidering the complete chaos surrounding changes to the Chelsea Manning article (one of the biggest conflicts in Wikipedia history), it would be nice to have a calm pre-discussion about when and how the changes here might take place. What are the guidelines? Moncrief ( talk) 17:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Then one obviously defaults to the status quo. I am in Jenner's implied position, or perhaps close, it is a very complicated one, even without celebrity status, and even contractual issues, as a celebrity name equals brand. The initiative lies there, not here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.80.181.204 ( talk) 20:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
WP:IDENTITY is paramount here. The BLP subject must confirm this themselves. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 00:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
To this point in time he has been identifying as male. Pronouns for events transpiring before this supposed future transition should still remain in the masculine. "Her" would have no reference to his performance in the male division of the Olympics, celebrity era as male characters or Kardashians as step-dad. There is no reason to go back and rewrite the article. We do the same thing with women after they get married and take on their husband's surname. The events before the marriage are still referred to under their birth surname. Trackinfo ( talk) 02:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, and for those that advocate that we should already be using "transitioned" language, this is an acceptable action to do now. Switch everything to Jenner away from pronouns, and then both "sides" should be happy (at the cost of some ease of readability) Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
This news item http://www.edgeboston.com/news/national/news//171361/bruce_jenner%27s_mom_opens_up_about_his_gender_journey_ said to be an interview with Jenner's mother would seem to confirm the transgender story, but she still refers to Jenner as "him", possibly advisedly. Based on this the status quo still seems the good choice, but it might be time to include the issue in the main article, subject to verification of the soundness of the source by another editor better equipped to do so. It seems now to be a significant factor in the subject's life and also will become an important element in transgender history, and transgender sportspeople. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.121.249 ( talk) 10:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Given the interview this evening, Jenner stated that "I'm a woman," is this conclusive enough to move forward with changing to female pronouns? [1] Jordanbowden ( talk) 01:29, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is a source saying that Jenner would like she/her pronouns starting after the recent ABC interview, in paragraph six: [1] 137.90.0.177 ( talk) 04:33, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
References
Is this article going to claim that Bruce Jenner was the first woman to win the Men's decathlon ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 06:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
What is the wikipedia policy on external articles regarding trans-gender individuals? For example: I notice that the article on Sonny Bono has this text, “On March 4, 1969, their daughter Chastity was born.” Is that an error? Should it be changed? Also I believe that most modern day Olympic athletes have undergone “Gender testing.” How should links to those external sources be handled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 03:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not stand alone and must cite reliable external sources for its facts. Many (I am guessing most) of these external sources do not adhere to the same trans-gender policy as does Wikipedia. These sources are the external articles that I was referring to. I think that it is problematic to cite a source for a wikipedia article that disagrees with the article itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 07:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Re: "Is this article going to claim that Bruce Jenner was the first woman to win the Men's decathlon ?" That would be like claiming that Neil Armstrong was the first dead person to walk on the Moon. Bruce Jenner was neither a woman nor a transgendered person when he won his gold medal. 99.141.238.204 ( talk) 02:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Re:99.141.238.204, what you're saying makes common sense, but on this particular subject common sense runs counter to WP:MoS, and is thus verboten. One reason I don't edit much anymore. 174.101.121.104 ( talk) 01:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The paragraph about Jenner's recent car crash should be removed. It's not notable and it's inclusion is WP:RECENTISM and violates WP:NOTNEWS. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 23:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
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10:13, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Strongly Disagree. Clearly notable and well sourced. That he was involved in the crash and that someone was killed under dubious circumstances is a fact. Period. The story and details develop further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7&6=thirteen ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 8 February 2015 (UTC) User:EvergreenFir, Thank you for the reminder. Brain fart! Sorry for not signing that. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 22:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
This talk page needs a special banner that talks about the fact that regardless of rumor, Jenner is known by all reliable sources as a man and not a trans woman. Georgia guy ( talk) 16:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
"Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns ... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification."
The emphasis of the word "latest" suggests that we normally refer to transgender people by their identified gender and not their birth-assigned sex. I have a big concern that people will think this means that Jenner is a trans man, not a rumored trans woman, per this statement and the guideline of referring to Jenner with male terms. Georgia guy ( talk) 21:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Bruce Jenner's mom on his gender journey
[...]
AP: He has opened up in terms of his gender identity, which he is now owning, as opposed to hiding like so many transgender people have to do? Is that right?
Jenner: That's absolutely right. He said, 'Mom, I'm still the same person.' He said, 'I'm still going to race cars, I'm still going to fly airplanes and I'm going to get my helicopter license.'
Dansan99 ( talk) 19:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:24, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
The point is that it has to be Bruce Jenner himself who says he prefers the general public to refer to him as a she. He might be transgender in a typical way and let his friends/family know about it and it might show in his physical appearance in a subtle way -- and still prefer that the media and everyone else refer to him as they always have. This does make sense. If you think that "he's transgender therefore we have to refer to him as a she" then you're wrong. It's his prerogative to decide that. Not his mom's, and definitely not ours.
(What I'm saying here pertains to the pronouns we use and how we define him in the lead section and categories etc, I don't have an opinion on adding information to the article based on reliable sources that talk about his gender identity.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 21:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
![]() | This
edit request to
Bruce Jenner has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
in early life it says "Jenner has a younger sister named Nicole." with a citation but this is wrong so could it be changed to say he has two sisters named Lisa and Pam and the source is when bruce's mother gave an interview with the dailymail and gave them pictures and they are mentioned a few times in the interview http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2830520/Bruce-Jenner-s-mother-not-fan-son-s-new-effeminate-look-lets-rip-controlling-monster-ex-Kris-no-holds-barred-interview.html she also claims the jenner family is descended from Edward Jenner and that could be added also sort of backed up by a tweet from kylie jenner saying he's a relative [1] but is stated as an ancestor in the article and i also saw it on ancestry.com but since i don't have a tree you can say the family claim 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 23:43, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
it should not matter if it is the dailymail as i have said it is an interview just like u may object to celebuzz but his sister lisa gave an interview to them [2] his mother has provided proof to the dailymail of their existence and it is near impossible to find a better source online because they are out of the limelight if you read that other celebuzz interview 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 01:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
There are quite a few sources confirming this, though they all point back to People magazine. Time will tell soon enough. Two kinds of pork Makin' Bacon 15:46, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
"Bruce Jenner to discuss transition in Diane Sawyer interview" http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bruce-jenner-to-discuss-transition-in-diane-sawyer-interview TechBear | Talk | Contributions 05:59, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:NOTFORUM |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
his father was CANADIAN!!! http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=dowfam3&id=I315775 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 21:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
was a joke but mainly pointing that fact out and could be added to early life if u get a better source on the family tree also those examples u gave were terrible 80.1.219.140 ( talk) 00:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC) This page is here to discuss issues regarding the main entry. This isn't a proper forum for "jokes." ( 2601:1:580:1A8:8CA5:B9BA:8098:3E06 ( talk) 23:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)) You do realize that "joke" is almost a year old? The targets of your wrath have long since moved on. 75.150.163.113 ( talk) 01:51, 18 January 2015 (UTC) And perhaps you should realize that this page is reserved for discussion as to how to improve the article, not a forum for your irrelevant, simplistic and pointless comments! If you want to make silly comments, join the IMDB forums. ( Sellpink ( talk) 22:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)) You're not improving the article by insulting my choice of words. It would be an improvement if you got over your self-importance. 75.150.163.113 ( talk) 04:51, 5 February 2015 (UTC) |
Just a heads up for everyone here, I plan on dropping the protection level back down to indefinite semiprotection late tomorrow evening, roughly 32 hours from now. I apologize for not leaving a note sooner stating my intentions - I didn't want to set a fixed duration when I protected it so that it wouldn't be completely unprotected when the full protection expired. I originally planned on removing full protection after about three days, but the request at WP:RFPP had asked for one week, which I agreed was a little better. This will end up being just a little bit short of one week. Thanks everyone. -- Bongwarrior ( talk) 19:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Can we change "the better part of two decades" to something less obtuse – e.g., "about fifteen years"? — BarrelProof ( talk) 05:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
No mainstream news outlet has reported that Jenner is transitioning yet, so obviously we shouldn't report that either. However, multiple major outlets have reported on the reports in other forms of media. The New York Times writes " Though he has not confirmed it, he is widely reported to be in the midst of making a transition from male to female." The Washington Post writes " The evolving appearance of Jenner, the 65-year-old 1976 Olympic decathlon champion, has led to reports, most recently by Us Weekly, that the former athlete is in the midst of a 'transition from male to female.' " And so on. My question is, if multiple reliable sources see fit to at least report on the rumors, mightn't we report on them too? Something along the lines of "In late 2014 and early 2015, reports surfaced in tabloid magazines and other entertainment media that Jenner is undergoing a gender transition. Jenner has not confirmed the reports." And then maybe note the reports about the reality series and the Sawyer interview.
I'm all for respecting living people's privacy, but I don't think we need to hold back on writing about what even highly reputable sources like the Times and the Post consider to be fair game. We can respect Jenner's privacy without unnecessarily censoring ourselves. — PinkAmpers & (Je vous invite à me parler) 13:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Reporting on the reporting would require sources themselves reporting on the reporting. The subject of the articles in question is Jenner. No articles (that I am aware of) are written about the other articles as their topic. In this context, the articles are WP:PRIMARY and reporting on them would be WP:OR. Gaijin42 ( talk) 21:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi all, just an admin note that I have edited through full-protection to remove a sentence that struck me as particularly BLP-problematic, about paparazzi being involved/not involved in the accident. My sense is that the text I removed gives the implication that Jenner has lied, and I prefer to err on the side of BLP in a case like that. I have no problem with the content being added back if it can be adapted to a less-problematic phrasing, or if consensus is reached that I'm being silly and the content is fine as-is. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! ( talk) 19:33, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
I have no opinion in the content dispute that is driving all of this; my action here is solely administrative. If the sentence can be better-sourced or rephrased and a consensus is reached to add it back to the article, give me a ping and I will be happy to add it back if the article is still protected. Until affirmative consensus is reached that the content (in its current form or an adapted form) is not problematic, however, policy requires that we proactively err on the side of excluding it. 21:28, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
It was actually a quotation of the subheading of the title of the particular article. But this will all shake out in due course. We can all be patient; nothing to get upset about. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 22:13, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The info box says Jenner married Linda in 1982, the article says 1981. 140.209.60.162 ( talk) 15:08, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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In the infobox under "spouses", please change the date range below Linda Thompson from "1982-84" to "1981-84". See the above discussion for reasoning behind the edit request. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 22:59, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
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I take issue with the article cited, Bacardi, Francesca (December 18, 2014). "Kris Jenner and Bruce Jenner's Divorce Finalized". E!. Retrieved January 29, 2015. #37 and the other articles because they incorrectly used legal terms. #37 specifically incorrectly states that the "divorce is finalized" when what the article should actually state is that the terms of the divorce were finalized. The actual process is that someone files for divorce via a Summons and Petition for Dissolution of Marriage. If the parties can agree on everything and no one contests the divorce, they file a Marital Settlement Agreement with terms of divorce. The divorce can only be finalized via a Divorce Judgement (or Judgement of Dissolution of Marriage) which a judge can only sign into effect if it's been at least 6 months and 1 day from the time the petition was filed.
Leave it to an entertainment writer to misunderstand the legal process! People can live apart for as long as they like, but are not legally separated until paperwork is filed. Please see the divorce overview page here: http://www.lacourt.org/selfhelp/divorceorseparation/SH_DS001.aspx I would be happy to come up with something myself, but can't do this because of the current block. Hopefully everything will turn out OK for Bruce.
Cherubino3 ( talk) 17:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Their divorce terms were finalized in December 2014, but it will not officially go into effect at least until March 23, 2015 due to a six-month state legal requirement. -- Frmorrison ( talk) 17:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The article currently says taht Jenner is getting a divorce from his current wife; how-ever, earlier, the article talks about a previous wife, going only so far as "As of February 1986 they were separated.[31] " They must have gotten divorced. Can't we get a source on that and put it in.?05:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC)05:20, 5 February 2015 (UTC) 211.225.34.159 ( talk)
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My request is that the articles he/him/his pronouns when referring to Jenner be changed to she/her. The reason is that Jenner identifies as a woman. As such, she/her pronouns are appropriate. Intentionally misgendering her would be considered disrespectful and inaccurate. 2602:306:833F:EC80:918:75FC:F30F:A220 ( talk) 01:46, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Not done for now: - there are no
reliable sources as yet to support that. See the section above,
#When to start using female pronouns? -
Alison
❤
02:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
I would like to request that we remove the recent car accident reporting. This article is appearing on Wikipedia's most-viewed article reports including WP:TOP25 and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-02-11/Traffic report. Viewers coming to the article will be deceived into thinking the article and subject is popular because of the car accident (which is the only recent event we deal with at the moment), which viewcount analysis shows is not true. Traffic greatly increased in the days prior to the car accident, due to an issue which I see is currently being held from being covered in the article content. The car accident was an unfortunate event in Jenner's life, but there are millions of car accidents where someone dies, we do not report on them all.-- Milowent • has spoken 18:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
This request and the rationale for it are ridiculous. The car accident was/is noteworthy, and the TOP25 stuff is completely irrelevant. Townlake ( talk) 03:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
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20:22, 14 February 2015 (UTC)From the Olympics section, emphasis mine:
"In the era before professionalism was allowed in athletics this kind of training was unheard of."
What exactly does this mean? Athletes in general, much less Olympic athletes, didn't train to improve themselves?
- Lafin T. Jack 04:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LafinJack ( talk • contribs)
It is perhaps notable that Jenner's 1976 world record in the decathlon stood as an American record until 1991, when it was broken by Dan O'Brien. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdominal Pain ( talk • contribs) 11:34, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Trackinfo, except that the word "stood" has been repeated. — Abdominal Pain ( talk) 22:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC).
The first sentence of the lead says he is a "current motivational speaker" and a "businessman". Is he really? I can't find any mention of motivational speaking in the article. Searching the article for "motiv" and "spea" yields nothing. I also can't find any description of current business activities. I am removing that. No source is cited. — BarrelProof ( talk) 00:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
She should be categorized as a woman now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.129.14.89 ( talk) 00:45, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
¶ I would very much like to see a segment addressing Jenner's dramatic changes in appearance and the suspicion that he is transgendering or something similar. Sussmanbern ( talk) 17:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it seems she will be fully transgendering soon, shouldn't the article reflect this transgenderization status? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:252:d6d:5710:399f:c116:1ec1:400b ( talk) 00:46, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
People who still have any doubts or qualms about including Jenner's transgender identity in the article should see the New York Times op-ed on it by regular Times columnist Nicholas Kristof, 2/05/15. He gives plenty of reasons why Jenner's evidently imminent coming-out is a healthy thing for all of us in the circumstances, and comments on how Jenner's mother and step-daughter have told the press they're looking forward to it. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/05/opinion/nicholas-kristof-bruce-jenners-courage.html 24.90.203.188 ( talk) 05:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
The male pronouns in this article are very offensive. 2601:2:5E00:6A3:1DA0:E80F:2DE1:45E4 ( talk) 05:04, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
I would change it, but these edits [4] are from a user who has been purposely adding false information to articles. Just a heads up. Eik Corell ( talk) 19:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The article states "He hit a "home run" by achieving personal bests on the first day, turning his notorious second day into a gold medal coronation." There's nothing in the source that shows that the day was notorious nor is there anything on the web or elsewhere in the article showing that the day was notorious or known in any way for something bad. I removed the word "notorious" and it was reverted with no explanation. Why? What did Jenner do on that day that was notorious? Hagrinas ( talk) 20:19, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I found the Frequently asked questions area at Talk:Chelsea Manning helpful and covered some of these same issues as to when we use her new name and how things are reported. That might help people looking for the same information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Missruption ( talk • contribs) 23:09, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
Family sources tell TMZ, Bruce told the klan he has kept his "true self" inside since he was a child, and even during the '76 Olympics -- when he was considered the greatest male athlete in the world -- in his head he was a woman." http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/16/bruce-jenner-transgender-sex-change-woman-kardashians-diane-sawyer/. "transition into becoming a woman will be chronicled in a docuseries that will air as early as May. Production and Jenner family sources tell us it will NOT premiere until "Keeping Up with the Kardashians" Season 10 has fully aired. The Sawyer interview is tricky. We're told Bruce wants to maintain enough mystery for his docuseries but use other media promotionally." http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/05/diane-sawyer-bruce-jenner-interview-sex-change/. There remains no reason why a FAQ wouldn't be helpful on this page. The subject is being discussed and hyped by Jenner herself in a promotional fashion. Look clueless in the article itself but at least answer the questions here. Missruption ( talk) 23:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
this situation is somewhat ironic. The current policies were put in place to protect trans people. basically the only thing that counts is direct statements from the person themselves. This is to prevent the issue where the NYT says "'John graduated when he was 28" and us having to follow those pronouns. There have been zero statements from Jenner themeself. There have been lots of rumors, speculation, and hearsay. Maybe (probably?) those rumors will turn out to be true. But until we have a statement from Jenner themselves nothing is going to change in this article, and all you are doing is wasting your and everyone else's time my making the same tired hashed out arguments that are not going to go anywhere. WP:DROPTHESTICK Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Some sources are citing that Jenner is in fact transitioning into a woman. Should we add this into Personal Life or wait until more sources poor in supporting this information? -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 02:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
For BLP concerns such as this, statements like you describe are insuccificent. but in any case, Variety doesn't even say that. it says "has generated considerable speculation in the tabloid press that he is on the verge of revealing he is transgender" a clearly insufficient "fact" for saying anything of substance about anyone. Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:17, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
According to this article, among multiple other articles, Bruce Jenner is in fact becoming a woman. He has already shaven his Adam's apple, although it is unknown if he is planning to get gender reassignment surgery. It will reportedly be announced on the show as well. So do you think it could possibly be written now, since The Daily Mail (in my opinion) is a reliable source? Nyazkilam ( talk) 18:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Cosmidering the complete chaos surrounding changes to the Chelsea Manning article (one of the biggest conflicts in Wikipedia history), it would be nice to have a calm pre-discussion about when and how the changes here might take place. What are the guidelines? Moncrief ( talk) 17:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Then one obviously defaults to the status quo. I am in Jenner's implied position, or perhaps close, it is a very complicated one, even without celebrity status, and even contractual issues, as a celebrity name equals brand. The initiative lies there, not here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.80.181.204 ( talk) 20:59, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
WP:IDENTITY is paramount here. The BLP subject must confirm this themselves. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 00:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
To this point in time he has been identifying as male. Pronouns for events transpiring before this supposed future transition should still remain in the masculine. "Her" would have no reference to his performance in the male division of the Olympics, celebrity era as male characters or Kardashians as step-dad. There is no reason to go back and rewrite the article. We do the same thing with women after they get married and take on their husband's surname. The events before the marriage are still referred to under their birth surname. Trackinfo ( talk) 02:35, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, and for those that advocate that we should already be using "transitioned" language, this is an acceptable action to do now. Switch everything to Jenner away from pronouns, and then both "sides" should be happy (at the cost of some ease of readability) Gaijin42 ( talk) 17:59, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
This news item http://www.edgeboston.com/news/national/news//171361/bruce_jenner%27s_mom_opens_up_about_his_gender_journey_ said to be an interview with Jenner's mother would seem to confirm the transgender story, but she still refers to Jenner as "him", possibly advisedly. Based on this the status quo still seems the good choice, but it might be time to include the issue in the main article, subject to verification of the soundness of the source by another editor better equipped to do so. It seems now to be a significant factor in the subject's life and also will become an important element in transgender history, and transgender sportspeople. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.121.249 ( talk) 10:01, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
Given the interview this evening, Jenner stated that "I'm a woman," is this conclusive enough to move forward with changing to female pronouns? [1] Jordanbowden ( talk) 01:29, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Here is a source saying that Jenner would like she/her pronouns starting after the recent ABC interview, in paragraph six: [1] 137.90.0.177 ( talk) 04:33, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
References
Is this article going to claim that Bruce Jenner was the first woman to win the Men's decathlon ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 06:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
What is the wikipedia policy on external articles regarding trans-gender individuals? For example: I notice that the article on Sonny Bono has this text, “On March 4, 1969, their daughter Chastity was born.” Is that an error? Should it be changed? Also I believe that most modern day Olympic athletes have undergone “Gender testing.” How should links to those external sources be handled? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 03:45, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not stand alone and must cite reliable external sources for its facts. Many (I am guessing most) of these external sources do not adhere to the same trans-gender policy as does Wikipedia. These sources are the external articles that I was referring to. I think that it is problematic to cite a source for a wikipedia article that disagrees with the article itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.184.68.39 ( talk) 07:01, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Re: "Is this article going to claim that Bruce Jenner was the first woman to win the Men's decathlon ?" That would be like claiming that Neil Armstrong was the first dead person to walk on the Moon. Bruce Jenner was neither a woman nor a transgendered person when he won his gold medal. 99.141.238.204 ( talk) 02:27, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Re:99.141.238.204, what you're saying makes common sense, but on this particular subject common sense runs counter to WP:MoS, and is thus verboten. One reason I don't edit much anymore. 174.101.121.104 ( talk) 01:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
The paragraph about Jenner's recent car crash should be removed. It's not notable and it's inclusion is WP:RECENTISM and violates WP:NOTNEWS. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{ re}} 23:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
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10:13, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Strongly Disagree. Clearly notable and well sourced. That he was involved in the crash and that someone was killed under dubious circumstances is a fact. Period. The story and details develop further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7&6=thirteen ( talk • contribs) 18:05, 8 February 2015 (UTC) User:EvergreenFir, Thank you for the reminder. Brain fart! Sorry for not signing that. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 22:09, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
This talk page needs a special banner that talks about the fact that regardless of rumor, Jenner is known by all reliable sources as a man and not a trans woman. Georgia guy ( talk) 16:02, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
"Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns ... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification."
The emphasis of the word "latest" suggests that we normally refer to transgender people by their identified gender and not their birth-assigned sex. I have a big concern that people will think this means that Jenner is a trans man, not a rumored trans woman, per this statement and the guideline of referring to Jenner with male terms. Georgia guy ( talk) 21:03, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Bruce Jenner's mom on his gender journey
[...]
AP: He has opened up in terms of his gender identity, which he is now owning, as opposed to hiding like so many transgender people have to do? Is that right?
Jenner: That's absolutely right. He said, 'Mom, I'm still the same person.' He said, 'I'm still going to race cars, I'm still going to fly airplanes and I'm going to get my helicopter license.'
Dansan99 ( talk) 19:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Gaijin42 ( talk) 19:24, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
The point is that it has to be Bruce Jenner himself who says he prefers the general public to refer to him as a she. He might be transgender in a typical way and let his friends/family know about it and it might show in his physical appearance in a subtle way -- and still prefer that the media and everyone else refer to him as they always have. This does make sense. If you think that "he's transgender therefore we have to refer to him as a she" then you're wrong. It's his prerogative to decide that. Not his mom's, and definitely not ours.
(What I'm saying here pertains to the pronouns we use and how we define him in the lead section and categories etc, I don't have an opinion on adding information to the article based on reliable sources that talk about his gender identity.) — Jeraphine Gryphon ( talk) 21:43, 29 March 2015 (UTC)