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I have remove the mergeto tag. They shouldn't be merged. One is an archaeological site, the other a modern city. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have any pictures of modern-day Caesarea which they could contribute to the article? Flymeoutofhere ( talk) 20:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the two articles on ancient & modern Caesarea can be easily merged. At the moment this article has a long (unreferenced) history section on the ancient city. In any case, there is some interesting information here is lacking on the ancient city page, so I would not just delete it. -- Gilabrand ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
An editor has come up with a "competing" village, Qisarya, which he just tried to substitute as a link from Caesarea Maratima. Any thoughts? Student7 ( talk) 12:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closing admin comments - There is a clear consensus to merge Qisarya and Caesarea. As most did not comment on the merge with Barrat Qisarya and those who did were against it, there is no consensus to merge Barrat Qisarya and Caesaria. Furthermore, no one commented on the Caesarea Maritima proposal, and there is thus no consensus to change the status quo. Keilana| Parlez ici 04:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Following the previous conversations i propose articles named Qisarya and Barrat Qisarya be merged into this article. In addition, the article on Caesarea Maritima would become an article on modern national park with a short history section, with most of its history merged into this article. Please vote Support or Oppose. Greyshark09 ( talk) 07:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
In the above "merge", from this, the inbox was forgotten. I´m adding it, Huldra ( talk) 22:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Follow me through here. The text reads
1. "In December 1947 the local leader, Tawfiq Kadkuda, approached Jewish officials in an effort to establish non-belligerency agreements with local Jewish settlements.[3]" Bosnians are trying to say "Look, we're not Arabs. We don't want any trouble." Extreme Zionists don't buy this.
2. "The 31 January 1948 Lehi attack on a bus leaving Qisarya, killed 2 and injuring 6 people, precipitated an evacuation of the population, who fled for fear of further attacks, mainly due to rumors about al-Tantura.[4]" Great! Now there is nobody in the area, hardly. Scared of being massacred, and maybe for good reason.
3. "In February 1948 the 'Arab al Sufsafi and Saidun Bedouin, who inhabited the dunes between Qisarya and Pardes left the area.[5] During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War part of the population of Qisariya fled in fear of attacks, before it was conquered by Jewish forces in February.[6]" Great. Now everybody is gone. Nobody can get hurt, right?
3.a. [From the lead, which is the "summary of the article"] "In February 1948 the village was conquered by a Palmach unit commanded by Yitzhak Rabin and its people expelled." What is Rabin doing? Starting a war by himself? I tried to change this to February 1949 which is well within the scope of the war article but was reverted. What is going on?
4. But, "According to Israeli historian Uri Milstein, the 4th Battalion of Palmach conquered Caesarea under the command of Josef Tabenkin. The remaining inhabitants were expelled and the village houses were demolished.[7][8]" Five or six "remaining inhabitants." What's left to "conquer?"
We have a village, which was never terrifically large at its peak population, from which everyone has supposedly fled, being conquered twice by mighty conquerors, once before the war and once during the war. Student7 ( talk) 01:44, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Morris 1984 pp94-5: "During this period Jewish troops expelled the inhabitants of only one village—Qisariya, in the Coastal Plain, in mid-February (for reasons connected to Jewish illegal immigration rather than the ongoing civil war)—though other villages were harassed and a few specifically intimidated by IZL, LHI, and Haganah actions (much as during this period Jewish settlements were being harassed and intimidated by Arab irregulars)." That's the complete and only mention I know of illegal immigration being involved. It's easy to guess the explanation but without more in a published source we can't do more than repeat what is here. Any other reference to the matter would of course be welcome. Meanwhile I'm removing the tag since there is no way to satisfy it. Zero talk 01:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
User:Debresser: that you stalk me, and turn up at an article you never have edited before, is no problem. But automatic reverts, like this, is, as now the lead says Caesarea was "abandoned after the Mamluk conquest" ...and the *nothing* until 1884. This contradicts the article text...e.g. where do those 100+ families in 1664 fit in? Huldra ( talk) 23:02, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello,
"Mores" is an old-French word referring to "Maures" ie
Moors. According to the context, Maure can be translated different ways but it was common in France at the time to refer to any Muslim as a Moor due to the conquest of Spain and the trial to conquer France. I learnt this word that way myself at primary school. I would not translate this by Marrocan in the current context.
Eugène Roger has his entry at BNF (Bibliothèque Nationale de France) ; the book of 1664 is the 2nd version of one of his book and is mentioned.
Here is the text in French:
which can be tranlsated as follows:
Pluto2012 ( talk) 08:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Pluto, I assume you read the 1646-version, page 76, that is this:
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help); External link in |author=
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link) (gallica-version)However, there is also a 1664-version available:
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |author=
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link) (google version)...there, the Caesarea -stuff is on p. 87. Can you read it there? Huldra ( talk) 23:37, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
There is a question about how much should go into this article, and how much should go into Caesarea Maritima. Much of the Crusader remains seem to be between present new town of Caesarea, and the old Caesarea Maritima. Huldra ( talk) 23:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Iskandar323 and Srnec. See Talk:Caesarea_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_19_February_2023. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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The article uses the template:Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine (which groups depopulated Arab villages from British Mandate period), though the village was notably populated by Bosniak majority. Either we remove the template or rename the template to reflect that the residents of Caesarea were mostly Bosniak Muslims. GreyShark ( dibra) 08:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Caesarea (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 23:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Epson291: it is incorrect to write "the ancient city of Caesarea Maritima [is] situated in the southern part of the town". The town of Caesarea is a private organization, and its boundaries are defined by the extent of the ownership and jurisdiction of the Caesarea Development Corporation.
On the other hand, the ancient city is located in the Caesarea National Park, under the jurisdiction of the Israel Nature and Parks Authority.
They are different places, and the ruins are more than 1km away from the town, as this picture shows. Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
* "Birth of a National Park: How a National Park is Born. Caesarea National Marine Park". Israel Nature and Parks Authority. 2020.
Establishing a national park, according to the 1998 Law of National Parks, Nature Reserves, National Sites and Memorial Sites, gives the Israel Nature and Parks Authority (INPA) the right to manage the area as a national park, to operate it from a tourist and security standpoint, and to protect it with the help of marine rangers. In 1968 the Caesarea National Park was similarly declared on land, and today it is the INPA's most visited site – with over one million visitors per year. The first step on the long road to establishing the marine area as a national park is creating a legislative plan and getting approval from the planning committees, similar to a city expansion plan or plans to construct a new technology park. Our partners in this challenging marine journey are the Israel Antiquities Authority – who are in charge of archeological artifacts, and the Edmond de Rothschild Caesarea Development Corporation – who manage the beach restaurants and developments in the Caesarea Harbor.
* Russell, C.; Hogan, L.; Junker-Kenny, M. (2012). Ethics for Graduate Researchers: A Cross-disciplinary Approach. Elsevier Science. ISBN 978-0-12-391484-2.A similar picture is painted at the archaeological site at Caesarea. This multi-period monumental site is managed by the Israel Nature and National Parks Protection Authority. Within the Park, the Caesarea Edmond Benjamin de Rothschild Corporation operates Caesarea Harbour, a visitor centre with multi-media displays on the history of the site. The National Park extends from the Roman theatre in the south to the Crusader city to the north. Many, though not all, of the archaeological remains within the park have been prepared for public presentation and these include: the Byzantine square, the Herodian amphitheatre, the promontory palace, a bathhouse and a network of streets. In 1968, the Crusader city and the theatre became a national park. The Israel Antiquities Authority and Haifa University have been conducting extensive excavations since the early 1990s as part of the development of the site for tourist purposes within the framework of the Master Plan for Tourism in Caesarea.
* Fuhrman-Naaman, Y.; Porath, Y.; Vamosh, M.F. (2017). Ancient Caesarea: Conservation and Development of a Heritage Site. Israel Antiquities Authority. p. 9. ISBN 978-965-406-696-9.In 1884, the Ottoman government settled among the ruins a group of refugees from Bosnia, who had fled their homeland after Turkey lost it to Austria. The refugees occupied the ruins of the city from the Crusader period and made their living from farming, fishing and selling ancient stones. The Jewish Colonization Association and its successor, the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (PICA), founded by Baron Rothschild, purchased a great deal of land around Caesarea and Mount Carmel on the eve of and following World War I. In 1940, the founders of Kibbutz Sedot Yam settled on PICA lands at Caesarea, while Arabs from the surroundings joined the Bosnian community; the latter was abandoned in 1948. In 1952, PICA established the Caesarea Development Corporation to develop the area for homes, industry, commerce and tourism. When PICA ended its activities in 1958, the lands came under the joint management of the State of Israel and the Rothschild family. In 1965, the Caesarea Development Corporation established the luxury neighborhood of modern Caesarea, east of the antiquities. The company continues to develop the site for tourism and commerce, especially within the Crusader city walls. In 1968, the Caesarea antiquities were declared a national park, which is now managed by the Israel Nature and Parks Authority (formerly the National Parks Authority).
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Caesarea, Israel article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
I have remove the mergeto tag. They shouldn't be merged. One is an archaeological site, the other a modern city. Cheers, Tewfik Talk 17:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have any pictures of modern-day Caesarea which they could contribute to the article? Flymeoutofhere ( talk) 20:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the two articles on ancient & modern Caesarea can be easily merged. At the moment this article has a long (unreferenced) history section on the ancient city. In any case, there is some interesting information here is lacking on the ancient city page, so I would not just delete it. -- Gilabrand ( talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
An editor has come up with a "competing" village, Qisarya, which he just tried to substitute as a link from Caesarea Maratima. Any thoughts? Student7 ( talk) 12:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closing admin comments - There is a clear consensus to merge Qisarya and Caesarea. As most did not comment on the merge with Barrat Qisarya and those who did were against it, there is no consensus to merge Barrat Qisarya and Caesaria. Furthermore, no one commented on the Caesarea Maritima proposal, and there is thus no consensus to change the status quo. Keilana| Parlez ici 04:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Following the previous conversations i propose articles named Qisarya and Barrat Qisarya be merged into this article. In addition, the article on Caesarea Maritima would become an article on modern national park with a short history section, with most of its history merged into this article. Please vote Support or Oppose. Greyshark09 ( talk) 07:21, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
In the above "merge", from this, the inbox was forgotten. I´m adding it, Huldra ( talk) 22:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Follow me through here. The text reads
1. "In December 1947 the local leader, Tawfiq Kadkuda, approached Jewish officials in an effort to establish non-belligerency agreements with local Jewish settlements.[3]" Bosnians are trying to say "Look, we're not Arabs. We don't want any trouble." Extreme Zionists don't buy this.
2. "The 31 January 1948 Lehi attack on a bus leaving Qisarya, killed 2 and injuring 6 people, precipitated an evacuation of the population, who fled for fear of further attacks, mainly due to rumors about al-Tantura.[4]" Great! Now there is nobody in the area, hardly. Scared of being massacred, and maybe for good reason.
3. "In February 1948 the 'Arab al Sufsafi and Saidun Bedouin, who inhabited the dunes between Qisarya and Pardes left the area.[5] During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War part of the population of Qisariya fled in fear of attacks, before it was conquered by Jewish forces in February.[6]" Great. Now everybody is gone. Nobody can get hurt, right?
3.a. [From the lead, which is the "summary of the article"] "In February 1948 the village was conquered by a Palmach unit commanded by Yitzhak Rabin and its people expelled." What is Rabin doing? Starting a war by himself? I tried to change this to February 1949 which is well within the scope of the war article but was reverted. What is going on?
4. But, "According to Israeli historian Uri Milstein, the 4th Battalion of Palmach conquered Caesarea under the command of Josef Tabenkin. The remaining inhabitants were expelled and the village houses were demolished.[7][8]" Five or six "remaining inhabitants." What's left to "conquer?"
We have a village, which was never terrifically large at its peak population, from which everyone has supposedly fled, being conquered twice by mighty conquerors, once before the war and once during the war. Student7 ( talk) 01:44, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Morris 1984 pp94-5: "During this period Jewish troops expelled the inhabitants of only one village—Qisariya, in the Coastal Plain, in mid-February (for reasons connected to Jewish illegal immigration rather than the ongoing civil war)—though other villages were harassed and a few specifically intimidated by IZL, LHI, and Haganah actions (much as during this period Jewish settlements were being harassed and intimidated by Arab irregulars)." That's the complete and only mention I know of illegal immigration being involved. It's easy to guess the explanation but without more in a published source we can't do more than repeat what is here. Any other reference to the matter would of course be welcome. Meanwhile I'm removing the tag since there is no way to satisfy it. Zero talk 01:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
User:Debresser: that you stalk me, and turn up at an article you never have edited before, is no problem. But automatic reverts, like this, is, as now the lead says Caesarea was "abandoned after the Mamluk conquest" ...and the *nothing* until 1884. This contradicts the article text...e.g. where do those 100+ families in 1664 fit in? Huldra ( talk) 23:02, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello,
"Mores" is an old-French word referring to "Maures" ie
Moors. According to the context, Maure can be translated different ways but it was common in France at the time to refer to any Muslim as a Moor due to the conquest of Spain and the trial to conquer France. I learnt this word that way myself at primary school. I would not translate this by Marrocan in the current context.
Eugène Roger has his entry at BNF (Bibliothèque Nationale de France) ; the book of 1664 is the 2nd version of one of his book and is mentioned.
Here is the text in French:
which can be tranlsated as follows:
Pluto2012 ( talk) 08:31, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi Pluto, I assume you read the 1646-version, page 76, that is this:
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help); External link in |author=
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link) (gallica-version)However, there is also a 1664-version available:
{{
cite book}}
: External link in |author=
(
help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (
link) (google version)...there, the Caesarea -stuff is on p. 87. Can you read it there? Huldra ( talk) 23:37, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
There is a question about how much should go into this article, and how much should go into Caesarea Maritima. Much of the Crusader remains seem to be between present new town of Caesarea, and the old Caesarea Maritima. Huldra ( talk) 23:52, 25 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Iskandar323 and Srnec. See Talk:Caesarea_(disambiguation)#Requested_move_19_February_2023. Onceinawhile ( talk) 22:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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The article uses the template:Infobox former Arab villages in Palestine (which groups depopulated Arab villages from British Mandate period), though the village was notably populated by Bosniak majority. Either we remove the template or rename the template to reflect that the residents of Caesarea were mostly Bosniak Muslims. GreyShark ( dibra) 08:21, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Caesarea (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 23:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Epson291: it is incorrect to write "the ancient city of Caesarea Maritima [is] situated in the southern part of the town". The town of Caesarea is a private organization, and its boundaries are defined by the extent of the ownership and jurisdiction of the Caesarea Development Corporation.
On the other hand, the ancient city is located in the Caesarea National Park, under the jurisdiction of the Israel Nature and Parks Authority.
They are different places, and the ruins are more than 1km away from the town, as this picture shows. Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
* "Birth of a National Park: How a National Park is Born. Caesarea National Marine Park". Israel Nature and Parks Authority. 2020.
Establishing a national park, according to the 1998 Law of National Parks, Nature Reserves, National Sites and Memorial Sites, gives the Israel Nature and Parks Authority (INPA) the right to manage the area as a national park, to operate it from a tourist and security standpoint, and to protect it with the help of marine rangers. In 1968 the Caesarea National Park was similarly declared on land, and today it is the INPA's most visited site – with over one million visitors per year. The first step on the long road to establishing the marine area as a national park is creating a legislative plan and getting approval from the planning committees, similar to a city expansion plan or plans to construct a new technology park. Our partners in this challenging marine journey are the Israel Antiquities Authority – who are in charge of archeological artifacts, and the Edmond de Rothschild Caesarea Development Corporation – who manage the beach restaurants and developments in the Caesarea Harbor.
* Russell, C.; Hogan, L.; Junker-Kenny, M. (2012). Ethics for Graduate Researchers: A Cross-disciplinary Approach. Elsevier Science. ISBN 978-0-12-391484-2.A similar picture is painted at the archaeological site at Caesarea. This multi-period monumental site is managed by the Israel Nature and National Parks Protection Authority. Within the Park, the Caesarea Edmond Benjamin de Rothschild Corporation operates Caesarea Harbour, a visitor centre with multi-media displays on the history of the site. The National Park extends from the Roman theatre in the south to the Crusader city to the north. Many, though not all, of the archaeological remains within the park have been prepared for public presentation and these include: the Byzantine square, the Herodian amphitheatre, the promontory palace, a bathhouse and a network of streets. In 1968, the Crusader city and the theatre became a national park. The Israel Antiquities Authority and Haifa University have been conducting extensive excavations since the early 1990s as part of the development of the site for tourist purposes within the framework of the Master Plan for Tourism in Caesarea.
* Fuhrman-Naaman, Y.; Porath, Y.; Vamosh, M.F. (2017). Ancient Caesarea: Conservation and Development of a Heritage Site. Israel Antiquities Authority. p. 9. ISBN 978-965-406-696-9.In 1884, the Ottoman government settled among the ruins a group of refugees from Bosnia, who had fled their homeland after Turkey lost it to Austria. The refugees occupied the ruins of the city from the Crusader period and made their living from farming, fishing and selling ancient stones. The Jewish Colonization Association and its successor, the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association (PICA), founded by Baron Rothschild, purchased a great deal of land around Caesarea and Mount Carmel on the eve of and following World War I. In 1940, the founders of Kibbutz Sedot Yam settled on PICA lands at Caesarea, while Arabs from the surroundings joined the Bosnian community; the latter was abandoned in 1948. In 1952, PICA established the Caesarea Development Corporation to develop the area for homes, industry, commerce and tourism. When PICA ended its activities in 1958, the lands came under the joint management of the State of Israel and the Rothschild family. In 1965, the Caesarea Development Corporation established the luxury neighborhood of modern Caesarea, east of the antiquities. The company continues to develop the site for tourism and commerce, especially within the Crusader city walls. In 1968, the Caesarea antiquities were declared a national park, which is now managed by the Israel Nature and Parks Authority (formerly the National Parks Authority).