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How about to satisfy everybody we change it from british to Northern irish? Lampy101 ( talk) 17:30, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay agreed! New to this wikipedia thing so still to trying to catch my bearings excuse me. Lampy101 ( talk) 21:47, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
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Consider changing Oxford University to University of Oxford when directly referring to the institution - as this is the correct name 195.213.86.231 ( talk) 16:33, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I have heard notable people say that he was an apologist, and seen notable works calling him an apologist.-- HalMartin ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC) Edit: I mean why isn't he described as an apologist in the first sentence of the article.-- HalMartin ( talk) 15:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Why not describe him as Professor of Literature, or Literary Critic, or Academic since that was his main job - Professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature? As well as teaching, he wrote quite a few books on literary criticism including a volume of the Oxford History English Literature, Studies in Medieval and Rennaisance Literature, The Allegory of Love. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.8.207.243 ( talk) 00:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, my edit was reverted recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=961642798&oldid=961262697&title=C._S._Lewis I believe this detail to be redundant because the college Lewis studied at while at Oxford was already named in /info/en/?search=C._S._Lewis#Childhood. I'd like to request that User:Walter_Görlitz un-revert his recent revert. KilimAnnejaro ( talk) 17:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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"Clive Staples Lewis (29 November 1898 – 22 November 1963) was a British writer"
Change British to Irish, as C.S Lewis stated he was Irish. 109.78.40.253 ( talk) 13:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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C. S. Lewis was born in Northern Ireland, and while people from Northern Ireland can identify as British, they can also identify as Irish and clearly, from the quotes within the article itself, C. S. Lewis identified as such. So why is his nationality described as British when he himself clearly identified as Irish? 91.170.177.208 ( talk) 12:26, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
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C S Lewis was born in Belfast, ‘Northern Ireland’, not ‘Ireland’ as mentioned on the Wiki page. 2A00:23C7:A585:9A01:4D1E:E54B:6AE6:C5F5 ( talk) 11:27, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
First line says he was British. In paragraph about Yeats he is quoted as saying "then thank the gods that I am Irish". Slipper8 ( talk) 21:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Slipper8
I don't fully understand. He self identified as Irish, he didn't self identify as British. He was Irish. Why is there even a discussion about this? larryone ( talk) 08:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The only question that really matters here is: what do reliable sources say? Paul August ☎ 18:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Lewis was Irish not British ! There's no evidence he identified as British ,This attempt to describe him as British as a sort of primacy is to cover up he was Irish, and so the English can claim him as one of their own .Ireland being part of the uk during this time holds no relevancy to the discussion . Its the equivalent of saying anyone born in Poland during nazi occupation was German . There's a clear level of bias permeating through these threads with english and British rot .please at the very least add the fact to the top of the page that he was Irish,this was very clearly important to him throughout his life ,politics shouldn't come into it he was irish first and foremost . The page has purposely been perverted by British nationalists . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.146.85 ( talk) 04:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
There may be bias and you could be right but do not, under any circumstances, compare the British to the Nazis. You wind up sounding like an uneducated idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.122 ( talk) 09:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, when Lewis discusses patriotism in The Four Loves, he cites examples of English or British patriotism and refers to the English as "we". He does argue against some forms of English patriotism but never, in that passage, distinguishes himself as Irish. The closest he comes to referring to Ireland in that context is putting the Black & Tans on a list of examples of patriotism turned evil. — VeryRarelyStable ( talk) 10:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Belfast is part of Northern Ireland United Kingdom not Ireland so change this Steele7648 ( talk) 20:43, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
- The idea that Ireland was part of Britain and therefore he was British holds no water since, by that logic, there were no Irish people from 1801 till the free state at the earliest. Anyway, wikipedia precedent is clear on this. Check out Adam Smith's page. He is Scottish and not British, though the Act of Union with Scotland was 1707, well before he was born. Isaac Butt is another example, listed as Irish. There are countless further examples. Those making this argument don't understand that though the Kingdoms were united, distinctions of nation were still accepted and used. Beside's this point, the only argument against the author's clear statements is some implication from the use of the word 'we'. This does not seem as strong as two clear statements of being Irish that are quoted on Lewis's wikipedia page itself. Surely on balance of probability, he must be described Irish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.151.33.195 ( talk) 13:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Typical English...taking the best of what every Country has to offer and claiming it for yourselves... whether that be natural resources, golfers, writers... the list goes as I could easily but I've made my point Springer10 ( talk) 10:43, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be repeated, long-term concensus to have Lewis' description changed to Irish instead of British. At the very least, we can all agree that having it as British alone is ludicrously incorrect for a man who was born in Ireland and self-identified as Irish. So why has there still been no change? Are we that beholden to the will of a pair of prejudiced editors? Hibarnacle ( talk) 16:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
Clive Staples Lewis was born in Belfast, Ireland, on 29 November 1898.
That still doesn’t speak to the inconsistency and subjectivity LeoEvilsbane ( talk) 16:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
It is clear that C.S Lewis was an Irishman born in Ireland, which happened to be in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at the time. It would be incorrect to call anybody born on the island of Ireland at the time British. A direct quotation from CS Lewis in 1958, on being informed that his heavy breathing was causing problems with a radio broadcast recording session. The quotation is as follows:
“I'm Irish not English. Did you ever know an Irishman who didn't puff and blow?” [1]
This direct quotation from CS Lewis highlights the fact that Lewis was not English, as is the common misconception among the general public, but in fact, in his own words, of an Irish background. CamCheachtDé ( talk) 14:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
In this case why is Tolkien described as English. Why is there one rule to separate a person born in Ireland and to describe them as British and a different rule for another.
Similarly we have Duke of Wellington described as Anglo Irish, and his brother as Irish. CuriousStapler ( talk) 23:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Alister McGrath (Oxford university professor who is an expert on the life and works of Lewis) says in his biography "Lewis was Irish-something that some Irish seem to have forgotten, if they knew it at all. While I myself was growing up in Northern Ireland during the 1960s, my recollection is that when Lewis was referred to at all, it was as an "English" writer. ... Lewis regularly spoke of Ireland as his "home", calling it "my country"... For Lewis-who here identifies himself as someone who actually is "an Irishman"... So why is Lewis not celebrated as one of the greatest Irish writers of all time?... The real issue is that Lewis does not fit-and indeed, must be said partly to have chosen not to fit-the template of Irish identity that had dominated the late twentieth century... One of the reasons why Ireland has largely chosen to forget about Lewis is that he was the wrong type of Irishman... His Irish identity inspired by Ireland's landscape rather than its political history... Lewis may have chosen to rise above the provinciality of Irish literature; he nevertheless remains one of its most luminous and famous representatives." https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hF2jadczzgsC&pg=PT17&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
!!! This topic should be revived. It seems abundantly clear from the above that there is a consensus that Lewis himself saw 'Irish' as his primary identity, and that went to some lengths to stress this. It is true that 'Irish' and 'British' are not mutually exclusive in this context, but it is nonsensical, as has already been pointed out, that Lewis should be considered any more British than Wilde.
The 'Irish' label is simply more accurate, specific and nuanced, in the same way that Belfast, Northern Ireland is preferable to Belfast, United Kingdom, - the latter is implied in any case, but is unnecessarily vague. The 'British' label should be reserved for those figures who have some specific significance to the 'Union' per se, and this is clearly not the case for Lewis.
This is where contemporary prejudices about British/Irish nationality truly come into play, as in true historical context it can only ever make sense to speak of an Irishman someone born in Ireland to Irish parents who consistently self-identified as Irish... as Irish! - not to do so betrays more about the false British/Irish dichotomy being imposed by those who wish to maintain the 'British' description than those who don't (the extent to which people have got this the wrong way round is laughable). In Lewis' time, this would have seemed as extraordinary as failing to identify a Scotsman as such, instead opting for 'British' - completely redundant!
The rest of the article makes clear his connections to the rest of Britain. If there are options for a compromise in wording that balance his being Irish and British, that would be ideal, but the label 'British' on its own simply cannot stand. 'Irish-born British', although to my mind still making little sense (why is Wilde not identified as such?), is a minimum.
Some further food for thought:
Abstract of “C.S. Lewis: An Irish Writer.”, David Clare of the University of Limerick in Irish Studies Review:
"This article examines the effect of C.S. Lewis’s Irish background on his work. It attempts to contradict the assumption that this Belfast-born writer should be included in the English and not the Irish canon. It emphasises that Lewis saw himself as Irish, was seen by others as Irish, and that his Irish background, contrary to what some have written, was important to him throughout his lifetime.
It goes on to demonstrate the ways in which his work was influenced by his youth in Ireland and by the Irish mythology that he loved. Furthermore, this article maintains that, as a child of pre-partition Ireland with roots throughout the island, Lewis was influenced by the country as a whole, not just his native Ulster. Finally, it attempts to understand why Lewis, a proud Irishman, did not do more to promote himself as an Irish writer."
Surprised by C.S. Lewis, Alister McGrath: "So why is Lewis not celebrated as one of the greatest Irish writers of all time? Why is there no entry for “Lewis, C.S.” in the 1,472 pages of the supposedly definitive Dictionary of Irish Literature (1996)? The real issue is that Lewis does not fit—and, indeed, must be said partly to have chosen not to fit—the template of Irish identity that has dominated the late twentieth century.
In some ways, Lewis represents precisely the forces and influences which the advocates of a stereotypical Irish literary identity wished to reject. One of the reasons why Ireland has largely chosen to forget about Lewis is that he was the wrong kind of Irishman. . . .
Lewis may have chosen to rise above the provinciality of Irish literature; he nevertheless remains one of its most luminous and famous representatives."
That last point is particularly relevant! He is considered by a significant critic to be one of Ireland's most "LUMINOUS AND FAMOUS REPRESENTATIVES", actively participating in this IRISH tradition as an IRISHMAN.
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.— MOS:OPENPARABIO#Context
I admit I am not completely familiar with the minutiae of Wikipedia's policies, but I do not understand that his 'Britishness' is any more notable than his 'Irishness'. This is was my original point when I said that the label 'British' surely should be reserved for those who have some particular connection to the 'Union' as such. When this is not the case, the only sensible thing in consideration of the historical context can be to default to the figure's Home Nation, as this is simply more accurate, specific, and nuanced -- and which, as has been pointed out time and again, is the practice everywhere else on this website!
No case has actually been made for his prevailing 'Britishness', which suggests to me the prejudices of whoever is responsible for editing this page; namely, that 'British' is somehow the 'default', when the opposite is true. Modern-day preconceptions about what constitutes 'Irishness' have perniciously clouded this entire conversation. It simply has no basis in historical context nor in common sense. Please can something be done to address this. And again, please just help me understand the difference between Lewis and Wilde. Seriously.
At the very least, the description must be changed to "Irish-born British". This is a collaborative resource which relies first and foremost on consensus, and I guarantee there would no controversy around this if that description had been applied a long time ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeanEML ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
No case has actually been made for his prevailing 'Britishness'...
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
Can someone add his Degrees and Credentials, etc.? Misty MH ( talk) 11:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
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Possible citation for these statements: The second novel, Perelandra, depicts a new Garden of Eden on the planet Venus, a new Adam and Eve, and a new "serpent figure" to tempt Eve. The story can be seen as an account of what might have happened if the terrestrial Adam had defeated the serpent and avoided the Fall of Man, with Ransom intervening in the novel to "ransom" the new Adam and Eve from the deceptions of the enemy. The third novel, That Hideous Strength, develops the theme of nihilistic science threatening traditional human values, embodied in Arthurian legend.[citation needed] Thaiss, Christopher J. “C. S. Lewis.” Critical Survey of Long Fiction, Fourth Edition, Jan. 2010, pp. 1–7. MelissaThacker ( talk) 19:36, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The audio file of the article is a nice idea, and I listened to it, but it's not the text of the article. The file created in 2006 could be the text of the article in its former state. But, I don't know if this reading is from the article in 2006 or if it a personal reading of some material compiled by the reader? Ty78ejui ( talk) 20:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I propose adding the following text to the section "Career" subsection "Scholar" to the page, as it provides a personal view of Lewis's appearance and attitude as an Oxford don:
Actor Robert [ Hardy], CBE (1925~2017) provides an anecdote regarding Lewis's practices as a pedagogue: "I was staggered at his appearance. From reading all his stuff that my tutor at school told me to read, I got a picture of Lewis. It was a sort of El Greco Jesuit. Thin. Insistent, you know, and rather frightening. Pale and intense, absolutely. But my goodness me . . . there was this jolly farmer! And I was absolutely in my element, because I'm a country bumpkin, so I've adored him ever after. . . . He gave wonderfully jolly and extraordinary parties with lots of booze. I remember being hopelessly behind with an essay, and I said "Oh, Mr. Lewis, I wonder, would it be possible ...I’m supposed to be reading my essay to you tomorrow, but I haven't quite finished it. I wonder if I could come on Thursday?" And he said, "no no no, don't bother about it for a second. Come next Wednesday at the usual time with an extra specially good essay. Because the great thing about being at university is to enjoy yourself, which I hope you are. And besides, look at you in uniform. You'll be off soon, and you may well get killed. It's proper that you enjoy yourself." Which I thought was so wonderful."
[1] (beginning at 21:25)
Thefatcat81 ( talk) 07:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Note 35 features a defunct link: http://www.impalapublications.com/blog/index.php?/archives/5185-C.S.-Lewis-and-Mrs-Janie-Moore,-by-James-OFee.html on "the original". I propose removing the link.
Writerguywiki ( talk) 18:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
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CSLewis is Irish not British. He was born in Ireland. 2A02:8084:20E2:2380:80A4:205B:BADB:B039 ( talk) 17:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Agreed - It is horrendously incorrect, and I would say outright disrespectful to identify him as a British writer; he would never have done so. This is like calling someone Scottish as simply British - it is true, but it is not "correct". He was born in Ireland, and was Irish - even writing a book about it. Shocking. Lordmuggins ( talk) 07:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC) LM
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C.S Lewis is from Belfast, Northern Ireland not Belfast, Ireland. 92.14.26.114 ( talk) 11:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
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The usual practice in infoboxes is to list the country of birth, which in this case was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Why isn't that mentioned? (I understand the consensus regarding Northern Ireland, and that has nothing to do with my question.) St Anselm ( talk) 18:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
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Please add the significant event of the same day as Mr Lewis' death, following the point in the text, "one week before his 65th birthday".
Text: "As many of you know, and so many people feel, this date was the ending of Camelot, the same day in which President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. How completely apropos, that Narnia and Camelot, if they were to end, should have their endings on the same day, all the more to indicate their significance". 2600:1010:B053:E490:0:45:52C4:E401 ( talk) 06:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
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Change ‘British writer’ to ‘Irish writer’ to match his own self identification, later quoted in this exact article - ‘then thank the gods that I am Irish’. 146.198.152.157 ( talk) 15:30, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
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(1) Combine two short (one sentence) sections in the biography section, regarding his declined Honour, and his accepted appointment to the chair at Magdalene, into one section, perhaps titled "Honours declined and accepted", or some such. The single sentence paragraphs are unnecessary and awkward. (2) Add an {{expand section | with = further information from reliable sources on these two decisions, and any other relevant honours accepted or declined | small = no | date = February 2022}} to this section, because both are under-reported, there being good further material on both decisions in reliable sources. (3) Finally, I would also suggest that the protections here be lifted as early as possible, once resources to protect against vandalism can be marshaled. It is against the defining, founding principles of the place, to maintain protections any longer than absolutely necessary. And it is not effective for small changes, let alone WP:BOLD edits, to be sidelined. Articles need to evolve, especially if the GA status is again desired. Cheers. 2601:246:C700:558:A90A:20A6:FEC:55AA ( talk) 00:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
In the occupation section or box, it's written he was "novelist" because he's written more than 30 novels. He's published poems too, does that not make him a poet? 41.114.119.127 ( talk) 16:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Should we change to the photo of the young Lewis that now is on Commons? Or perhaps we could look into whether this photograph ( https://archive.org/details/inklingscslewisj00carp/page/n70/mode/1up) might be in the public domain like some users did with a Tolkien photo in this Commons discussion ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:J._R._R._Tolkien,_1940s.jpg) KnightofFaerië ( talk) 17:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
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change "in him becoming a atheist." to "in him becoming an atheist." Mvahan14 ( talk) 08:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
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He was Irish, nor British, and regularly referred to himself as such even having said "I am often surprised to find how utterly ignored Yeats is among the men I have met: perhaps his appeal is purely Irish – if so, then thank the gods that I am Irish." as well as "Like all Irish people who meet in England, we ended by criticisms on the invincible flippancy and dullness of the Anglo-Saxon race. After all, there is no doubt, *ami*, that the Irish are the only people: with all their faults, I would not gladly live or die among another folk."
He even turned down an OBE from the British King in the 1950s. 2A02:C7C:6627:7500:D59C:6F83:3477:888A ( talk) 20:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: see the discussions above and in the archives. This is a disputed topic and, until a thorough consensus is reached, will not be changed.
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He is from Belfast in 1800s meaning he's Irish not British 2A02:8084:88BF:F580:309B:B176:1C11:6E3B ( talk) 22:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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23:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)I hate to be 'that one' who suggests it, but in the sake of encyclopaedic integrity I think it should be brought up. I think the opening should read "was a British and Irish..."
When we look up a Welsh writer, or a Scottish writer, we see "Welsh" or "Scottish" listed as opposed to British. Lewis referred to himself as Irish, and he was born to a Unionist family in Co. Down so no doubt he was also British. In lieu of 'Irish' (as is the case with Scottish, English, Welsh authors from that period) I think the only reasonable wording would be "British and Irish". Just gauging POVs of editors, and if needed, admins.
Thanks, BBX118 20:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Robert Louis Stevenson is described as Scottish despite also moving in London literary circles and spending a lot of time moving around constantly.
So this is a weak argument as he is described as Scottish. CuriousStapler ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
It seems quite strange to me that Lewis is introduced as solely British here - by the man’s own, lifelong admission, he was Irish. Of course, Lewis was also a British subject and I can find no evidence of him disputing this. Perhaps the most reasonable approach would be to introduce Lewis as “Irish and British” or “British and Irish”. This would clearly align most closely with the man’s own life and opinions - and would also be by far the most likely identification of a man born to a Protestant background in Ulster before the partition of Ireland. Including both nationalities is therefore both accurate and satisfactory to all. Thanks! 148.81.201.16 ( talk) 21:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
It seems strange that a person who was born and raise in a country and identifies as such is declared by others to be something else. He is Irish and should be documented as such. Mmtpf ( talk) 12:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
(born July 30, 1947) is an Austrian and American actor, film producer, businessman, retired professional bodybuilder and politician
Would there be any objections to referring to Lewis as "British and Irish"? CeltBrowne ( talk) 17:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Could he not simply be referred to as a Northern-Irish British writerNo, because he was born before Northern Ireland existed. The Liam Neeson solution therefore doesn't work. I would have no objection to "British and Irish". Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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He would prefer to be know as a “Irish” author. Not “British”. 2601:2C6:4782:9420:E0F6:523D:6A59:3009 ( talk) 20:46, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
How about to satisfy everybody we change it from british to Northern irish? Lampy101 ( talk) 17:30, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Okay agreed! New to this wikipedia thing so still to trying to catch my bearings excuse me. Lampy101 ( talk) 21:47, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
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Consider changing Oxford University to University of Oxford when directly referring to the institution - as this is the correct name 195.213.86.231 ( talk) 16:33, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
I have heard notable people say that he was an apologist, and seen notable works calling him an apologist.-- HalMartin ( talk) 15:17, 4 April 2020 (UTC) Edit: I mean why isn't he described as an apologist in the first sentence of the article.-- HalMartin ( talk) 15:19, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
Why not describe him as Professor of Literature, or Literary Critic, or Academic since that was his main job - Professor of Medieval and Renaissance Literature? As well as teaching, he wrote quite a few books on literary criticism including a volume of the Oxford History English Literature, Studies in Medieval and Rennaisance Literature, The Allegory of Love. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.8.207.243 ( talk) 00:33, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Hi, my edit was reverted recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/?diff=961642798&oldid=961262697&title=C._S._Lewis I believe this detail to be redundant because the college Lewis studied at while at Oxford was already named in /info/en/?search=C._S._Lewis#Childhood. I'd like to request that User:Walter_Görlitz un-revert his recent revert. KilimAnnejaro ( talk) 17:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
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"Clive Staples Lewis (29 November 1898 – 22 November 1963) was a British writer"
Change British to Irish, as C.S Lewis stated he was Irish. 109.78.40.253 ( talk) 13:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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C. S. Lewis was born in Northern Ireland, and while people from Northern Ireland can identify as British, they can also identify as Irish and clearly, from the quotes within the article itself, C. S. Lewis identified as such. So why is his nationality described as British when he himself clearly identified as Irish? 91.170.177.208 ( talk) 12:26, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
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C S Lewis was born in Belfast, ‘Northern Ireland’, not ‘Ireland’ as mentioned on the Wiki page. 2A00:23C7:A585:9A01:4D1E:E54B:6AE6:C5F5 ( talk) 11:27, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
First line says he was British. In paragraph about Yeats he is quoted as saying "then thank the gods that I am Irish". Slipper8 ( talk) 21:41, 29 November 2017 (UTC)Slipper8
I don't fully understand. He self identified as Irish, he didn't self identify as British. He was Irish. Why is there even a discussion about this? larryone ( talk) 08:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The only question that really matters here is: what do reliable sources say? Paul August ☎ 18:19, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Lewis was Irish not British ! There's no evidence he identified as British ,This attempt to describe him as British as a sort of primacy is to cover up he was Irish, and so the English can claim him as one of their own .Ireland being part of the uk during this time holds no relevancy to the discussion . Its the equivalent of saying anyone born in Poland during nazi occupation was German . There's a clear level of bias permeating through these threads with english and British rot .please at the very least add the fact to the top of the page that he was Irish,this was very clearly important to him throughout his life ,politics shouldn't come into it he was irish first and foremost . The page has purposely been perverted by British nationalists . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.146.85 ( talk) 04:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
There may be bias and you could be right but do not, under any circumstances, compare the British to the Nazis. You wind up sounding like an uneducated idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.89.122 ( talk) 09:01, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, when Lewis discusses patriotism in The Four Loves, he cites examples of English or British patriotism and refers to the English as "we". He does argue against some forms of English patriotism but never, in that passage, distinguishes himself as Irish. The closest he comes to referring to Ireland in that context is putting the Black & Tans on a list of examples of patriotism turned evil. — VeryRarelyStable ( talk) 10:18, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Belfast is part of Northern Ireland United Kingdom not Ireland so change this Steele7648 ( talk) 20:43, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
- The idea that Ireland was part of Britain and therefore he was British holds no water since, by that logic, there were no Irish people from 1801 till the free state at the earliest. Anyway, wikipedia precedent is clear on this. Check out Adam Smith's page. He is Scottish and not British, though the Act of Union with Scotland was 1707, well before he was born. Isaac Butt is another example, listed as Irish. There are countless further examples. Those making this argument don't understand that though the Kingdoms were united, distinctions of nation were still accepted and used. Beside's this point, the only argument against the author's clear statements is some implication from the use of the word 'we'. This does not seem as strong as two clear statements of being Irish that are quoted on Lewis's wikipedia page itself. Surely on balance of probability, he must be described Irish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.151.33.195 ( talk) 13:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
Typical English...taking the best of what every Country has to offer and claiming it for yourselves... whether that be natural resources, golfers, writers... the list goes as I could easily but I've made my point Springer10 ( talk) 10:43, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be repeated, long-term concensus to have Lewis' description changed to Irish instead of British. At the very least, we can all agree that having it as British alone is ludicrously incorrect for a man who was born in Ireland and self-identified as Irish. So why has there still been no change? Are we that beholden to the will of a pair of prejudiced editors? Hibarnacle ( talk) 16:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
Clive Staples Lewis was born in Belfast, Ireland, on 29 November 1898.
That still doesn’t speak to the inconsistency and subjectivity LeoEvilsbane ( talk) 16:02, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
It is clear that C.S Lewis was an Irishman born in Ireland, which happened to be in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland at the time. It would be incorrect to call anybody born on the island of Ireland at the time British. A direct quotation from CS Lewis in 1958, on being informed that his heavy breathing was causing problems with a radio broadcast recording session. The quotation is as follows:
“I'm Irish not English. Did you ever know an Irishman who didn't puff and blow?” [1]
This direct quotation from CS Lewis highlights the fact that Lewis was not English, as is the common misconception among the general public, but in fact, in his own words, of an Irish background. CamCheachtDé ( talk) 14:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
In this case why is Tolkien described as English. Why is there one rule to separate a person born in Ireland and to describe them as British and a different rule for another.
Similarly we have Duke of Wellington described as Anglo Irish, and his brother as Irish. CuriousStapler ( talk) 23:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Alister McGrath (Oxford university professor who is an expert on the life and works of Lewis) says in his biography "Lewis was Irish-something that some Irish seem to have forgotten, if they knew it at all. While I myself was growing up in Northern Ireland during the 1960s, my recollection is that when Lewis was referred to at all, it was as an "English" writer. ... Lewis regularly spoke of Ireland as his "home", calling it "my country"... For Lewis-who here identifies himself as someone who actually is "an Irishman"... So why is Lewis not celebrated as one of the greatest Irish writers of all time?... The real issue is that Lewis does not fit-and indeed, must be said partly to have chosen not to fit-the template of Irish identity that had dominated the late twentieth century... One of the reasons why Ireland has largely chosen to forget about Lewis is that he was the wrong type of Irishman... His Irish identity inspired by Ireland's landscape rather than its political history... Lewis may have chosen to rise above the provinciality of Irish literature; he nevertheless remains one of its most luminous and famous representatives." https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hF2jadczzgsC&pg=PT17&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false
!!! This topic should be revived. It seems abundantly clear from the above that there is a consensus that Lewis himself saw 'Irish' as his primary identity, and that went to some lengths to stress this. It is true that 'Irish' and 'British' are not mutually exclusive in this context, but it is nonsensical, as has already been pointed out, that Lewis should be considered any more British than Wilde.
The 'Irish' label is simply more accurate, specific and nuanced, in the same way that Belfast, Northern Ireland is preferable to Belfast, United Kingdom, - the latter is implied in any case, but is unnecessarily vague. The 'British' label should be reserved for those figures who have some specific significance to the 'Union' per se, and this is clearly not the case for Lewis.
This is where contemporary prejudices about British/Irish nationality truly come into play, as in true historical context it can only ever make sense to speak of an Irishman someone born in Ireland to Irish parents who consistently self-identified as Irish... as Irish! - not to do so betrays more about the false British/Irish dichotomy being imposed by those who wish to maintain the 'British' description than those who don't (the extent to which people have got this the wrong way round is laughable). In Lewis' time, this would have seemed as extraordinary as failing to identify a Scotsman as such, instead opting for 'British' - completely redundant!
The rest of the article makes clear his connections to the rest of Britain. If there are options for a compromise in wording that balance his being Irish and British, that would be ideal, but the label 'British' on its own simply cannot stand. 'Irish-born British', although to my mind still making little sense (why is Wilde not identified as such?), is a minimum.
Some further food for thought:
Abstract of “C.S. Lewis: An Irish Writer.”, David Clare of the University of Limerick in Irish Studies Review:
"This article examines the effect of C.S. Lewis’s Irish background on his work. It attempts to contradict the assumption that this Belfast-born writer should be included in the English and not the Irish canon. It emphasises that Lewis saw himself as Irish, was seen by others as Irish, and that his Irish background, contrary to what some have written, was important to him throughout his lifetime.
It goes on to demonstrate the ways in which his work was influenced by his youth in Ireland and by the Irish mythology that he loved. Furthermore, this article maintains that, as a child of pre-partition Ireland with roots throughout the island, Lewis was influenced by the country as a whole, not just his native Ulster. Finally, it attempts to understand why Lewis, a proud Irishman, did not do more to promote himself as an Irish writer."
Surprised by C.S. Lewis, Alister McGrath: "So why is Lewis not celebrated as one of the greatest Irish writers of all time? Why is there no entry for “Lewis, C.S.” in the 1,472 pages of the supposedly definitive Dictionary of Irish Literature (1996)? The real issue is that Lewis does not fit—and, indeed, must be said partly to have chosen not to fit—the template of Irish identity that has dominated the late twentieth century.
In some ways, Lewis represents precisely the forces and influences which the advocates of a stereotypical Irish literary identity wished to reject. One of the reasons why Ireland has largely chosen to forget about Lewis is that he was the wrong kind of Irishman. . . .
Lewis may have chosen to rise above the provinciality of Irish literature; he nevertheless remains one of its most luminous and famous representatives."
That last point is particularly relevant! He is considered by a significant critic to be one of Ireland's most "LUMINOUS AND FAMOUS REPRESENTATIVES", actively participating in this IRISH tradition as an IRISHMAN.
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.— MOS:OPENPARABIO#Context
I admit I am not completely familiar with the minutiae of Wikipedia's policies, but I do not understand that his 'Britishness' is any more notable than his 'Irishness'. This is was my original point when I said that the label 'British' surely should be reserved for those who have some particular connection to the 'Union' as such. When this is not the case, the only sensible thing in consideration of the historical context can be to default to the figure's Home Nation, as this is simply more accurate, specific, and nuanced -- and which, as has been pointed out time and again, is the practice everywhere else on this website!
No case has actually been made for his prevailing 'Britishness', which suggests to me the prejudices of whoever is responsible for editing this page; namely, that 'British' is somehow the 'default', when the opposite is true. Modern-day preconceptions about what constitutes 'Irishness' have perniciously clouded this entire conversation. It simply has no basis in historical context nor in common sense. Please can something be done to address this. And again, please just help me understand the difference between Lewis and Wilde. Seriously.
At the very least, the description must be changed to "Irish-born British". This is a collaborative resource which relies first and foremost on consensus, and I guarantee there would no controversy around this if that description had been applied a long time ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeanEML ( talk • contribs) 18:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
No case has actually been made for his prevailing 'Britishness'...
The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
Can someone add his Degrees and Credentials, etc.? Misty MH ( talk) 11:21, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
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Possible citation for these statements: The second novel, Perelandra, depicts a new Garden of Eden on the planet Venus, a new Adam and Eve, and a new "serpent figure" to tempt Eve. The story can be seen as an account of what might have happened if the terrestrial Adam had defeated the serpent and avoided the Fall of Man, with Ransom intervening in the novel to "ransom" the new Adam and Eve from the deceptions of the enemy. The third novel, That Hideous Strength, develops the theme of nihilistic science threatening traditional human values, embodied in Arthurian legend.[citation needed] Thaiss, Christopher J. “C. S. Lewis.” Critical Survey of Long Fiction, Fourth Edition, Jan. 2010, pp. 1–7. MelissaThacker ( talk) 19:36, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The audio file of the article is a nice idea, and I listened to it, but it's not the text of the article. The file created in 2006 could be the text of the article in its former state. But, I don't know if this reading is from the article in 2006 or if it a personal reading of some material compiled by the reader? Ty78ejui ( talk) 20:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
I propose adding the following text to the section "Career" subsection "Scholar" to the page, as it provides a personal view of Lewis's appearance and attitude as an Oxford don:
Actor Robert [ Hardy], CBE (1925~2017) provides an anecdote regarding Lewis's practices as a pedagogue: "I was staggered at his appearance. From reading all his stuff that my tutor at school told me to read, I got a picture of Lewis. It was a sort of El Greco Jesuit. Thin. Insistent, you know, and rather frightening. Pale and intense, absolutely. But my goodness me . . . there was this jolly farmer! And I was absolutely in my element, because I'm a country bumpkin, so I've adored him ever after. . . . He gave wonderfully jolly and extraordinary parties with lots of booze. I remember being hopelessly behind with an essay, and I said "Oh, Mr. Lewis, I wonder, would it be possible ...I’m supposed to be reading my essay to you tomorrow, but I haven't quite finished it. I wonder if I could come on Thursday?" And he said, "no no no, don't bother about it for a second. Come next Wednesday at the usual time with an extra specially good essay. Because the great thing about being at university is to enjoy yourself, which I hope you are. And besides, look at you in uniform. You'll be off soon, and you may well get killed. It's proper that you enjoy yourself." Which I thought was so wonderful."
[1] (beginning at 21:25)
Thefatcat81 ( talk) 07:41, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
References
Note 35 features a defunct link: http://www.impalapublications.com/blog/index.php?/archives/5185-C.S.-Lewis-and-Mrs-Janie-Moore,-by-James-OFee.html on "the original". I propose removing the link.
Writerguywiki ( talk) 18:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
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CSLewis is Irish not British. He was born in Ireland. 2A02:8084:20E2:2380:80A4:205B:BADB:B039 ( talk) 17:27, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Agreed - It is horrendously incorrect, and I would say outright disrespectful to identify him as a British writer; he would never have done so. This is like calling someone Scottish as simply British - it is true, but it is not "correct". He was born in Ireland, and was Irish - even writing a book about it. Shocking. Lordmuggins ( talk) 07:05, 21 July 2021 (UTC) LM
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C.S Lewis is from Belfast, Northern Ireland not Belfast, Ireland. 92.14.26.114 ( talk) 11:40, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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11:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
The usual practice in infoboxes is to list the country of birth, which in this case was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Why isn't that mentioned? (I understand the consensus regarding Northern Ireland, and that has nothing to do with my question.) St Anselm ( talk) 18:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
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Please add the significant event of the same day as Mr Lewis' death, following the point in the text, "one week before his 65th birthday".
Text: "As many of you know, and so many people feel, this date was the ending of Camelot, the same day in which President John F. Kennedy was assassinated. How completely apropos, that Narnia and Camelot, if they were to end, should have their endings on the same day, all the more to indicate their significance". 2600:1010:B053:E490:0:45:52C4:E401 ( talk) 06:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
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Change ‘British writer’ to ‘Irish writer’ to match his own self identification, later quoted in this exact article - ‘then thank the gods that I am Irish’. 146.198.152.157 ( talk) 15:30, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
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(1) Combine two short (one sentence) sections in the biography section, regarding his declined Honour, and his accepted appointment to the chair at Magdalene, into one section, perhaps titled "Honours declined and accepted", or some such. The single sentence paragraphs are unnecessary and awkward. (2) Add an {{expand section | with = further information from reliable sources on these two decisions, and any other relevant honours accepted or declined | small = no | date = February 2022}} to this section, because both are under-reported, there being good further material on both decisions in reliable sources. (3) Finally, I would also suggest that the protections here be lifted as early as possible, once resources to protect against vandalism can be marshaled. It is against the defining, founding principles of the place, to maintain protections any longer than absolutely necessary. And it is not effective for small changes, let alone WP:BOLD edits, to be sidelined. Articles need to evolve, especially if the GA status is again desired. Cheers. 2601:246:C700:558:A90A:20A6:FEC:55AA ( talk) 00:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
In the occupation section or box, it's written he was "novelist" because he's written more than 30 novels. He's published poems too, does that not make him a poet? 41.114.119.127 ( talk) 16:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Should we change to the photo of the young Lewis that now is on Commons? Or perhaps we could look into whether this photograph ( https://archive.org/details/inklingscslewisj00carp/page/n70/mode/1up) might be in the public domain like some users did with a Tolkien photo in this Commons discussion ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:J._R._R._Tolkien,_1940s.jpg) KnightofFaerië ( talk) 17:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)
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change "in him becoming a atheist." to "in him becoming an atheist." Mvahan14 ( talk) 08:52, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
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He was Irish, nor British, and regularly referred to himself as such even having said "I am often surprised to find how utterly ignored Yeats is among the men I have met: perhaps his appeal is purely Irish – if so, then thank the gods that I am Irish." as well as "Like all Irish people who meet in England, we ended by criticisms on the invincible flippancy and dullness of the Anglo-Saxon race. After all, there is no doubt, *ami*, that the Irish are the only people: with all their faults, I would not gladly live or die among another folk."
He even turned down an OBE from the British King in the 1950s. 2A02:C7C:6627:7500:D59C:6F83:3477:888A ( talk) 20:18, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Not done for now: see the discussions above and in the archives. This is a disputed topic and, until a thorough consensus is reached, will not be changed.
Mattdaviesfsic (
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20:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
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He is from Belfast in 1800s meaning he's Irish not British 2A02:8084:88BF:F580:309B:B176:1C11:6E3B ( talk) 22:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
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ScottishFinnishRadish (
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23:06, 16 January 2023 (UTC)I hate to be 'that one' who suggests it, but in the sake of encyclopaedic integrity I think it should be brought up. I think the opening should read "was a British and Irish..."
When we look up a Welsh writer, or a Scottish writer, we see "Welsh" or "Scottish" listed as opposed to British. Lewis referred to himself as Irish, and he was born to a Unionist family in Co. Down so no doubt he was also British. In lieu of 'Irish' (as is the case with Scottish, English, Welsh authors from that period) I think the only reasonable wording would be "British and Irish". Just gauging POVs of editors, and if needed, admins.
Thanks, BBX118 20:51, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Robert Louis Stevenson is described as Scottish despite also moving in London literary circles and spending a lot of time moving around constantly.
So this is a weak argument as he is described as Scottish. CuriousStapler ( talk) 13:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
It seems quite strange to me that Lewis is introduced as solely British here - by the man’s own, lifelong admission, he was Irish. Of course, Lewis was also a British subject and I can find no evidence of him disputing this. Perhaps the most reasonable approach would be to introduce Lewis as “Irish and British” or “British and Irish”. This would clearly align most closely with the man’s own life and opinions - and would also be by far the most likely identification of a man born to a Protestant background in Ulster before the partition of Ireland. Including both nationalities is therefore both accurate and satisfactory to all. Thanks! 148.81.201.16 ( talk) 21:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
It seems strange that a person who was born and raise in a country and identifies as such is declared by others to be something else. He is Irish and should be documented as such. Mmtpf ( talk) 12:36, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
(born July 30, 1947) is an Austrian and American actor, film producer, businessman, retired professional bodybuilder and politician
Would there be any objections to referring to Lewis as "British and Irish"? CeltBrowne ( talk) 17:39, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
Could he not simply be referred to as a Northern-Irish British writerNo, because he was born before Northern Ireland existed. The Liam Neeson solution therefore doesn't work. I would have no objection to "British and Irish". Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:49, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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He would prefer to be know as a “Irish” author. Not “British”. 2601:2C6:4782:9420:E0F6:523D:6A59:3009 ( talk) 20:46, 25 June 2023 (UTC)