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"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered": /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources Traditionally, news reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact.
However, this criterion may be less appropriate now than it was when it was formulated, twenty years ago. Back then, "well-established news outlets" had staffs of capable investigative journalists who checked stories. The move to web-based news has deprived these outlets of both circulation revenue and advertising revenue; without revenue, they have been forced to get rid of most of their best investigative journalists. Consequently, reporting from well-established news outlets is less reliable than it once was; the flimsiest "confirmation", often amounting to little more than repeated assertion, is accepted as "fact-checking".
Under Wikipedia's current policy, this article may well be appropriate as it stands. Furthermore, I have no suggestion for how the policy could be changed. However, I do think that the "reliable source" criterion is being misapplied. Having read the article, and considered the sources, I am not entirely convinced that what is presented as "fact" is true. I'm left with the feeling that a large number of people have strong beliefs that it is true - which is not always the same thing. I think the article could be improved by some indication that the objectivity of most of the sources is questionable, and that most of what is cited as "fact checking" is far from rigorous. Longitude2 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 21:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth I can't see how any kind of finished and fully varified version can exist at this time. Untill the ICC have done their investigation there will always be angry and outraged opinion Vs fact based Vs deniers or/and disrupters. All can also come from individuals and state sponsored sources. HuttonIT ( talk) 17:51, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion for anyone who's good at making maps - we could use a user generated free version of map found here. Volunteer Marek 19:12, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
I think that as more info has come out our current organization of the article no longer makes sense. Currently it is:
With the "testimony from residents" containing most of the info on the killings. Rather I think something like this would be better:
Or perhaps something like it. Right now the organization kind of skips the actual important part. Volunteer Marek 19:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Almost every time I look at the article lead, it either switches between 'the alleged mistreatment/killing/abuse of civilians' to 'the [confirmed] mistreatment/killing/abuse of civilians.' Considering that this is a major event with much coverage, it should be decided whether it's simply an allegation or a confirmed killing. Paradox NiteOwl (Discussion?) 15:33, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi. Please can someone with more technical skills in this area enable the map in the infobox to have the three radio buttons to zoom in/out on it's location in Ukraine, similar to the infobox at Bucha, Kyiv Oblast? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Considering this is openly available data on the Maxar website and Oliver Stone among other personalities have been openly discussing this alleged hole in the New York Times story, it might be good to go straight to the primary source (Maxar website) and present it here? Any thoughts? Would the Maxar website be considered a primary or a secondary source in this case? 2.138.180.34 ( talk) 23:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The HRW released a report yesterday about Bucha. Some extracts that may be worth adding to this article are:
There are far more details in the report, for those with the stomach to read them. Nicodene ( talk) 02:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, you reverted
[1] my correction
[2] of the attribution of a quote in the Guardian
[3], giving the edit summary "source says “witnesses”". Currently our article says, The Guardian cited eyewitness accounts who said that the Russian forces placed Ukrainian children on their vehicles while moving in order to use them as human shields.
This is not correct, because the source says: Colonel Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, spokesman for Ukraine’s ministry of defence, said "Enemies have been using Ukrainian children as a living shield when moving their convoys, moving their vehicles. Russian soldiers have used Ukrainian children as hostages, putting them on their trucks"
[4]. The Guardian does not cite eyewitnesses about the placing of children on Russian military vehicles as human shields. Please self revert.
Xenagoras (
talk)
21:46, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Russia has been accused by Ukraine of using children as “human shields” while regrouping its forcesor
Ukraine’s attorney general is gathering a dossier of claims about the Russian use of local children to avoid fire when in retreat from around Ukraine’s capital and elsewhere.Xenagoras ( talk) 23:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
At the very beginning the article states "Photographic and video evidence of the massacre emerged on 1 April 2022 after Russian forces withdrew from the city." but the two references are dated April 6 and 5. The second reference specifically states that the bodies were found on April 3. So the claim about photographic evidence on April 1 is not supported.
This is a critical issue, because there is a page on an Ukranian website dated April 2 with title "Special Forces Regiment SAFARI Begins Clearing Operation in Bucha from Saboteurs and Accomplices of Russia", which makes it at least possible that these civilians were deemed to be accomplices of Russia and were killed by the Ukranian SAFARI regiment after the Russians had left the city on March 31.
As for the satellite photos supposedly from 15 or more days earlier showing dead bodies there are questions about the reliability of the source. There is the matter with the smiling mayor on the official page of Bucha's city council on April 1 when supposedly so many executed civilians had been lying for many days on the streets of his small town. What I personally find perplexing is this: During these 15 or more days wouldn't somebody have used a mobile phone to take a picture and uploaded it or send it to some news organization before April 3 when the Ukrainian SAFARI regiment was already in town? Finally I read that Russia has immediately tried to involve the UN, whereas the Ukrainian government which controls the area has not invited the UN to investigate.
I know that the media in the West as well as many high ranking officials in the US and the EU have stated publicly that the massacre was committed by the Russians. But back in 2003 they were quite certain about WMD in Iraq too. And at least according to the well known French newspapers Le Figaro and Le Monde there are suspicions that the massacre in Kosovo's Racak which played a role in justifying NATO's involvement was staged.
In conclusion I think it's simply too early to state for a fact who committed the massacre in Bucha. I suggest that in order to protect Wikipedia's objectivity the first sentence should be changed to "The Bucha massacre was the killing and abuse of Ukrainian civilians allegedly by Russian Armed Forces", and similar qualifications should be made elsewhere. And the second sentence should read "Photographic and video evidence of the massacre emerged on April 3, 2022 after Russian forces had withdrawn and Ukrainian forces had entered the city." Dianelos ( talk) 01:13, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Today, Guardian has posted an article researching on events in Bucha. According to it, people were killed not by gun bullets, but by dart-spraying ammo, which contradicts previous claims, as well as some other parts of research are also there.
I think it should be included into the page contents
Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/24/dozens-bucha-civilians-killed-flechettes-metal-darts-russian-artillery SwampKryakwa ( talk) 20:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. The report does not contradict previous information, but could be added. The use of flechettes, a type of anti-personnel weaponry, fired from Russian artillery into densely built up civilian areas, is also a violation of humanitarian law, and consistent with the broader pattern of war crimes. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
This video must’ve been “staged” too, huh? Why do people even waste time with these obviously bad faithed accounts? Volunteer Marek 16:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/world/europe/russia-bucha-ukraine-executions.html (Non-paywall version: https://archive.ph/lqnTL) 220.255.241.198 ( talk) 01:56, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
@ BobNesh: Your latest addition regarding the use of fléchettes by Ukraine has been disputed by two editors now. Moreover, unlike what you suggested in your edit summary, you're not using TASS to attribute a statement of the Russian government, but rather presenting the content as fact in the article, raising reliability issues. Considering this, I ask you to please self revert the edit. -- NoonIcarus ( talk) 18:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Svitlana Chmut, a resident of Bucha.
Why is this subsection needed in this article? It does not reflect the mood of Russian society. It does not reflect the general mood of Russian users of many social networks. He takes only a couple of groups in an anonymous social network, which include a small number of freaks and trolls, but does not represent the position of the rest of Russian society, against which these three groups are just a grain of sand. What are 144 extremist comments out of 288 comments reviewed in 48 hours, when the number of Russian users of one of the most popular social networks in Rrussia "Vkontakte" reaches 50 million people every day ( https://vk.com/main.php?subdir=press&subsubdir=users-monthly-activity )? What is the point in the same subsection of the comment "popular" Yulia Vityazeva regarding the battle for Mariupol, when Bucha is generally on a different sector of the front and Ukraine? And in the end, why are there stories about T-shirts with such inscriptions, when criminal responsibility ( p. 280.3 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/4618fd95c30a6fbe7717ceaebf64f082e735c9ad/ ) is provided for one wearing of such a T-shirt in the Russian Federation? The authors give the impression that people in Russia can safely wear such T-shirts. Although for the wearer of such a T-shirt, everything will end sadly when meeting with the first police patrol. And only one goal is pursued: under the loud heading "Social media comments", which assumes a broad study of public opinion, to present an analysis of three small groups with freaks for the opinion of the entire Russian society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flankercold ( talk • contribs) 10:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we add a map of victims, just like portugese wiki did. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm surprised by the weight given to some of the sources, and also by how they are used. Is there a general guide for what can be used or should not be used, for example managing conflicts of interest? Louis Waweru Talk 01:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Ukrainian law enforcement officers have identified the first suspect in the brutal killings of civilians in the city of Bucha near Kyiv: the commander of the Russian National Guard Sergei Kolotsei. This was announced by Prosecutor General Irina Venediktova on Facebook. «Bucha prosecutors and police have established that it was this serviceman who killed four unarmed men in Bucha on March 18,» she wrote. «He took a pro-Ukrainian local resident to the basement, where he beat him with his hands, a machine gun butt and a knife guard. The man was taken to the place of execution, where he was shot near his ear while imitating the massacre. A separate perverted form of bullying and intimidation of the victim was forcing him to sniff a dead person,” the prosecutor general said. Based on the collected evidence, testimony of the victim and portrait examination, prosecutors of the Bucha District Prosecutor’s Office informed the Rosguard Coloce on suspicion of ill-treatment of civilians and other violations of laws and customs of war combined with premeditated murder (Part 1, 2 of Ukraine). https://hromadske.radio/en/news/2022/05/03/killed-tortured-stole-the-hood-of-a-car-ukraine-announces-the-names-of-suspects-involved-in-the-crimes-in-bucha
Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Iryna Venediktova has announced the name of the first Russian soldier suspected of killing civilians in the town of Bucha near Kyiv during weeks of occupation. Venediktova said on May 2 that that the suspect was the commander of a unit of Russia's National Guard, Sergei Kolotsei. "Prosecutors of Bucha have established that this very military serviceman killed four unarmed men in Bucha on March 18," Venediktova wrote on Facebook, including the suspect's photo in the post. "He also tortured another civilian on March 29, forcing him to confess to saboteur activities against Russian troops." According to Venediktova, Kolotsei forced a pro-Ukrainian civilian into a basement, where he beat him with his fists, an assault rifle, and a knife handle. “The man was then taken to an execution site, where he went through mock execution as a gun was shot near his ear," she said. "Especially horrible type of humiliation and intimidation of the victim was forcing him to sniff a dead human body." Kolotsei has been officially informed that he is a suspect, Venediktova said. However, her Facebook post did not say that formal charges had been filed.
https://www.facebook.com/VenediktovaIryna/posts/380157467455261
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-prosecutor-bucha-russian-suspect/31830968.html
командир підрозділу Нацгвардії Росії Сергій Колоцей. «Прокурори Бучі та поліцейські встановили, що саме цей військовослужбовець вбив 18 березня чотирьох беззбройних чоловіків у Бучі. 29 березня він же катував, примушуючи зізнатися у підривній діяльності проти російської армії ще одного цивільного. Він забрав проукраїнськи налаштованого місцевого мешканця «на підвал», де бив його руками, прикладом автомата і гардою ножа. Чоловіка вивозили на місце страти, де, імітуючи розправу, стріляли біля його вуха. Окремим збоченим видом знущання і залякування потерпілого було примушування його нюхати мертву людину», – написала Венедіктова у фейсбуці. 31.173.82.91 ( talk) 18:47, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Neither reference provided properly supports, if even at all, the assertion of approximately 1,300 civilians killed KingMidasTheSecond ( talk) 21:50, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Article doesn't say a word about ukrainian "Safari" regiment "cleansing saboteurs and collaborator". I wonder, how many victims were killed by them? https://lb.ua/society/2022/04/02/512039_polk_spetspriznachennya_safari_pochav.html https://24tv.ua/ru/specnazovcy-polka-policii-safari-nachali-zachistku-buchi_n1933189 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.251.215.180 ( talk) 06:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
ConfusedAndAfraid, RFE/RL is not the only source for the statement, and the BBC article clearly says that the basement was used (not " allegedly") by Russian troops for torture ("There, the Russians poured water over his legs so he would freeze, and they held a gun to his head." and adjacent paragraphs). Kleinpecan ( talk) 14:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
The elephant in the middle of the room, an elephant we don't want to see. The BBC and company are rooting for Ukraine. Pretending that the BBC and company, not to speak of think tanks like ISW or the Atlantic Council, are reliable and unbiased and have no agenda is rather naive in my opinion. All the pro_Russian sources are rejected because they are propaganda (they are), but I don't see the same scepticism when it comes to the pro-Ukrainian version. 62.99.89.51 ( talk) 11:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Neither Human Rights Watch nor Amnesty Intl have retained this figure in their reports. They retained 22 cases of extrajudicial killings 2A01:E34:ECB9:690:C126:9E75:16D6:EDC2 ( talk) 14:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
In Bucha alone (Kyiv region), OHCHR documented the unlawful killings, including summary executions, of at least 50 civilians[10]. Where did you find the 22 cases figure? I see that Amnesty reported 22 cases of extrajudicial killings in Bucha, but that was at the end of May [11]. As far as I know, "at least 50 civilians" (OHCHR) is the most recent and reliable figure. I agree, however, that
According to local authorities, 458 bodies have been recovered from the townmight be misleading, as it suggests that all of them were killed in the "massacre", that is, voluntarily killed, while most of them probably died during the shelling and around 50 were actually murdered. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The Washington Post: "... 458 bodies, of which 419 bore markings they had been shot, tortured or bludgeoned to death". Kleinpecan ( talk) 16:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Local authorities are not a sound base as they have a vested interest in painting a darker picture, as happens in every conflict. I take your point about OHCHR’s figure, which i hadn’t seen. Considering the almost 10x gap between OHCHR’s figures and local authorities’ figures, i would suggest that the page be edited to reflect rather large uncertainty.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8440:3112:40a5:b591:58c6:89d4:3c08 ( talk • contribs)
Well, i happened to work in western international organizations for over 7 years at high level, and i can tell you that « at least 55 » means absolutely not « 450 ». So, until further massacres deaths are authentified by neutral organizations, i suggest you water down the assertion on the page, because, as is well known, the first casualty of war is truth. When additional victims will be documented, i will be the first one to recommend blaming the russians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8440:340F:940A:8825:23AC:8AF9:56F6 ( talk) 19:36, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
There is a lot of link clutter in the text. Should the reference style be changed to WP:LDR ? Grieg2 ( talk) 04:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
I placed a request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests#Bucha massacre to prepare for a Good Article Nom. // Timothy :: talk 15:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Bucha massacre has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add the following: Following the Russian withdrawal the Ukrainian armed force took control of the town for 10 days or so to weed out "collaborators". After this the journalists were allowed in and the bodies were shown leading to suggestions that the Ukrainians were responsible for the massacre. 203.214.159.8 ( talk) 05:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
There are 501 names on memorial plaques - https://meduza.io/short/2023/07/02/v-buche-otkryli-installyatsiyu-v-pamyat-o-zhitelyah-ubityh-vo-vremya-rossiyskoy-okkupatsii-fotografiya - a volunteer needed to please update lead and intro table with new figure. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 20:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
A Telegraph documentary (http youtu.be IrGZ66uKcl0) covers the early occupation. Given the lack of any final forensics report, which strongly suggests a result not well matching someone's narrative... It's an important source for neutrality since it shows and admits explicitly that:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Golden ( talk · contribs) 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
I'll review this article. — Golden talk 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Eyewitness accounts from residents of Bucha said that the Russian Armed Forces carried out the killings.- I would add "Additionally" at the beginning of this sentence to better integrate it with the previous sentence.
moved south towards Kyiv.-> "moved south towards the city" to avoid repeating Kyiv twice in the same sentence.
men, women, and children- You use an Oxford comma in this instance, but not in many others. I assume that you prefer not to use the Oxford comma, so I won't include any points about where to insert them. If my assumption is incorrect, please let me know.
related that drunken Russian soldiers told them of carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians.- Does "related" have such a meaning as a verb? It's my first time coming across it. If yes, keep that, if not, rewrite the sentence like this: "Villagers who were asked to help identify a beheaded body reported that drunken Russian soldiers had told them about carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians."
Some of them had no light or electricity for weeks, using candles for heating water and cooking. They came out of hiding only when it was clear the Russians had left, welcoming the arrival of Ukrainian troops.- I believe this information would be more relevant to the article on the Battle of Bucha, as it does not directly pertain to the massacre itself. However, this is just a suggestion and is optional.
into events in Bucha-> "into the events in Bucha" since we're referring to specific events.
with the area treated as a crime scene- Do we know how large this area was? As in, did it cover the entirety of Bucha or only places where bodies were found?
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba- You've already introduced Kuleba earlier. Simply "Kuleba" or "Dmytro Kuleba" is enough here.
to show reporters and the world the reported atrocities in Bucha.- There's some editoralising here. Did Zelenskyy say he visited the area with reporters to "show them and the world the atrocities in Bucha"?
Russian forces used tanks to crush Ukrainian civilians in cars- This should also be in quotes.
EU Council. Also link, European Council.
President Zelenskyy- Simply using "Zelenskyy" is sufficient. This applies to all instances of "President Zelenskyy" in the article, except for the first mention of Zelenskyy.
orchestrated by British operatives in order to introduce new sanctions against Russia- This should be a quote.
Sergei Klokov, a driver for Moscow's police headquarters, who is originally from Bucha, was arrested after he told colleagues what he had heard from his father and Ukrainian family friends about the Russian invasion. Among Klokov's alleged crimes was saying that Russian soldiers were killing Ukrainian civilians.- This doesn't explicitly mention Bucha, so I'd remove it.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered": /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources Traditionally, news reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact.
However, this criterion may be less appropriate now than it was when it was formulated, twenty years ago. Back then, "well-established news outlets" had staffs of capable investigative journalists who checked stories. The move to web-based news has deprived these outlets of both circulation revenue and advertising revenue; without revenue, they have been forced to get rid of most of their best investigative journalists. Consequently, reporting from well-established news outlets is less reliable than it once was; the flimsiest "confirmation", often amounting to little more than repeated assertion, is accepted as "fact-checking".
Under Wikipedia's current policy, this article may well be appropriate as it stands. Furthermore, I have no suggestion for how the policy could be changed. However, I do think that the "reliable source" criterion is being misapplied. Having read the article, and considered the sources, I am not entirely convinced that what is presented as "fact" is true. I'm left with the feeling that a large number of people have strong beliefs that it is true - which is not always the same thing. I think the article could be improved by some indication that the objectivity of most of the sources is questionable, and that most of what is cited as "fact checking" is far from rigorous. Longitude2 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 21:09, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
For what it's worth I can't see how any kind of finished and fully varified version can exist at this time. Untill the ICC have done their investigation there will always be angry and outraged opinion Vs fact based Vs deniers or/and disrupters. All can also come from individuals and state sponsored sources. HuttonIT ( talk) 17:51, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Suggestion for anyone who's good at making maps - we could use a user generated free version of map found here. Volunteer Marek 19:12, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
I think that as more info has come out our current organization of the article no longer makes sense. Currently it is:
With the "testimony from residents" containing most of the info on the killings. Rather I think something like this would be better:
Or perhaps something like it. Right now the organization kind of skips the actual important part. Volunteer Marek 19:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Almost every time I look at the article lead, it either switches between 'the alleged mistreatment/killing/abuse of civilians' to 'the [confirmed] mistreatment/killing/abuse of civilians.' Considering that this is a major event with much coverage, it should be decided whether it's simply an allegation or a confirmed killing. Paradox NiteOwl (Discussion?) 15:33, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
Hi. Please can someone with more technical skills in this area enable the map in the infobox to have the three radio buttons to zoom in/out on it's location in Ukraine, similar to the infobox at Bucha, Kyiv Oblast? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Considering this is openly available data on the Maxar website and Oliver Stone among other personalities have been openly discussing this alleged hole in the New York Times story, it might be good to go straight to the primary source (Maxar website) and present it here? Any thoughts? Would the Maxar website be considered a primary or a secondary source in this case? 2.138.180.34 ( talk) 23:18, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
The HRW released a report yesterday about Bucha. Some extracts that may be worth adding to this article are:
There are far more details in the report, for those with the stomach to read them. Nicodene ( talk) 02:44, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, you reverted
[1] my correction
[2] of the attribution of a quote in the Guardian
[3], giving the edit summary "source says “witnesses”". Currently our article says, The Guardian cited eyewitness accounts who said that the Russian forces placed Ukrainian children on their vehicles while moving in order to use them as human shields.
This is not correct, because the source says: Colonel Oleksandr Motuzyanyk, spokesman for Ukraine’s ministry of defence, said "Enemies have been using Ukrainian children as a living shield when moving their convoys, moving their vehicles. Russian soldiers have used Ukrainian children as hostages, putting them on their trucks"
[4]. The Guardian does not cite eyewitnesses about the placing of children on Russian military vehicles as human shields. Please self revert.
Xenagoras (
talk)
21:46, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
Russia has been accused by Ukraine of using children as “human shields” while regrouping its forcesor
Ukraine’s attorney general is gathering a dossier of claims about the Russian use of local children to avoid fire when in retreat from around Ukraine’s capital and elsewhere.Xenagoras ( talk) 23:44, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
At the very beginning the article states "Photographic and video evidence of the massacre emerged on 1 April 2022 after Russian forces withdrew from the city." but the two references are dated April 6 and 5. The second reference specifically states that the bodies were found on April 3. So the claim about photographic evidence on April 1 is not supported.
This is a critical issue, because there is a page on an Ukranian website dated April 2 with title "Special Forces Regiment SAFARI Begins Clearing Operation in Bucha from Saboteurs and Accomplices of Russia", which makes it at least possible that these civilians were deemed to be accomplices of Russia and were killed by the Ukranian SAFARI regiment after the Russians had left the city on March 31.
As for the satellite photos supposedly from 15 or more days earlier showing dead bodies there are questions about the reliability of the source. There is the matter with the smiling mayor on the official page of Bucha's city council on April 1 when supposedly so many executed civilians had been lying for many days on the streets of his small town. What I personally find perplexing is this: During these 15 or more days wouldn't somebody have used a mobile phone to take a picture and uploaded it or send it to some news organization before April 3 when the Ukrainian SAFARI regiment was already in town? Finally I read that Russia has immediately tried to involve the UN, whereas the Ukrainian government which controls the area has not invited the UN to investigate.
I know that the media in the West as well as many high ranking officials in the US and the EU have stated publicly that the massacre was committed by the Russians. But back in 2003 they were quite certain about WMD in Iraq too. And at least according to the well known French newspapers Le Figaro and Le Monde there are suspicions that the massacre in Kosovo's Racak which played a role in justifying NATO's involvement was staged.
In conclusion I think it's simply too early to state for a fact who committed the massacre in Bucha. I suggest that in order to protect Wikipedia's objectivity the first sentence should be changed to "The Bucha massacre was the killing and abuse of Ukrainian civilians allegedly by Russian Armed Forces", and similar qualifications should be made elsewhere. And the second sentence should read "Photographic and video evidence of the massacre emerged on April 3, 2022 after Russian forces had withdrawn and Ukrainian forces had entered the city." Dianelos ( talk) 01:13, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Today, Guardian has posted an article researching on events in Bucha. According to it, people were killed not by gun bullets, but by dart-spraying ammo, which contradicts previous claims, as well as some other parts of research are also there.
I think it should be included into the page contents
Article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/24/dozens-bucha-civilians-killed-flechettes-metal-darts-russian-artillery SwampKryakwa ( talk) 20:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Agreed. The report does not contradict previous information, but could be added. The use of flechettes, a type of anti-personnel weaponry, fired from Russian artillery into densely built up civilian areas, is also a violation of humanitarian law, and consistent with the broader pattern of war crimes. Iskandar323 ( talk) 02:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
This video must’ve been “staged” too, huh? Why do people even waste time with these obviously bad faithed accounts? Volunteer Marek 16:52, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/world/europe/russia-bucha-ukraine-executions.html (Non-paywall version: https://archive.ph/lqnTL) 220.255.241.198 ( talk) 01:56, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
@ BobNesh: Your latest addition regarding the use of fléchettes by Ukraine has been disputed by two editors now. Moreover, unlike what you suggested in your edit summary, you're not using TASS to attribute a statement of the Russian government, but rather presenting the content as fact in the article, raising reliability issues. Considering this, I ask you to please self revert the edit. -- NoonIcarus ( talk) 18:09, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Svitlana Chmut, a resident of Bucha.
Why is this subsection needed in this article? It does not reflect the mood of Russian society. It does not reflect the general mood of Russian users of many social networks. He takes only a couple of groups in an anonymous social network, which include a small number of freaks and trolls, but does not represent the position of the rest of Russian society, against which these three groups are just a grain of sand. What are 144 extremist comments out of 288 comments reviewed in 48 hours, when the number of Russian users of one of the most popular social networks in Rrussia "Vkontakte" reaches 50 million people every day ( https://vk.com/main.php?subdir=press&subsubdir=users-monthly-activity )? What is the point in the same subsection of the comment "popular" Yulia Vityazeva regarding the battle for Mariupol, when Bucha is generally on a different sector of the front and Ukraine? And in the end, why are there stories about T-shirts with such inscriptions, when criminal responsibility ( p. 280.3 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/4618fd95c30a6fbe7717ceaebf64f082e735c9ad/ ) is provided for one wearing of such a T-shirt in the Russian Federation? The authors give the impression that people in Russia can safely wear such T-shirts. Although for the wearer of such a T-shirt, everything will end sadly when meeting with the first police patrol. And only one goal is pursued: under the loud heading "Social media comments", which assumes a broad study of public opinion, to present an analysis of three small groups with freaks for the opinion of the entire Russian society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flankercold ( talk • contribs) 10:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
I suggest we add a map of victims, just like portugese wiki did. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 15:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm surprised by the weight given to some of the sources, and also by how they are used. Is there a general guide for what can be used or should not be used, for example managing conflicts of interest? Louis Waweru Talk 01:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Ukrainian law enforcement officers have identified the first suspect in the brutal killings of civilians in the city of Bucha near Kyiv: the commander of the Russian National Guard Sergei Kolotsei. This was announced by Prosecutor General Irina Venediktova on Facebook. «Bucha prosecutors and police have established that it was this serviceman who killed four unarmed men in Bucha on March 18,» she wrote. «He took a pro-Ukrainian local resident to the basement, where he beat him with his hands, a machine gun butt and a knife guard. The man was taken to the place of execution, where he was shot near his ear while imitating the massacre. A separate perverted form of bullying and intimidation of the victim was forcing him to sniff a dead person,” the prosecutor general said. Based on the collected evidence, testimony of the victim and portrait examination, prosecutors of the Bucha District Prosecutor’s Office informed the Rosguard Coloce on suspicion of ill-treatment of civilians and other violations of laws and customs of war combined with premeditated murder (Part 1, 2 of Ukraine). https://hromadske.radio/en/news/2022/05/03/killed-tortured-stole-the-hood-of-a-car-ukraine-announces-the-names-of-suspects-involved-in-the-crimes-in-bucha
Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Iryna Venediktova has announced the name of the first Russian soldier suspected of killing civilians in the town of Bucha near Kyiv during weeks of occupation. Venediktova said on May 2 that that the suspect was the commander of a unit of Russia's National Guard, Sergei Kolotsei. "Prosecutors of Bucha have established that this very military serviceman killed four unarmed men in Bucha on March 18," Venediktova wrote on Facebook, including the suspect's photo in the post. "He also tortured another civilian on March 29, forcing him to confess to saboteur activities against Russian troops." According to Venediktova, Kolotsei forced a pro-Ukrainian civilian into a basement, where he beat him with his fists, an assault rifle, and a knife handle. “The man was then taken to an execution site, where he went through mock execution as a gun was shot near his ear," she said. "Especially horrible type of humiliation and intimidation of the victim was forcing him to sniff a dead human body." Kolotsei has been officially informed that he is a suspect, Venediktova said. However, her Facebook post did not say that formal charges had been filed.
https://www.facebook.com/VenediktovaIryna/posts/380157467455261
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-prosecutor-bucha-russian-suspect/31830968.html
командир підрозділу Нацгвардії Росії Сергій Колоцей. «Прокурори Бучі та поліцейські встановили, що саме цей військовослужбовець вбив 18 березня чотирьох беззбройних чоловіків у Бучі. 29 березня він же катував, примушуючи зізнатися у підривній діяльності проти російської армії ще одного цивільного. Він забрав проукраїнськи налаштованого місцевого мешканця «на підвал», де бив його руками, прикладом автомата і гардою ножа. Чоловіка вивозили на місце страти, де, імітуючи розправу, стріляли біля його вуха. Окремим збоченим видом знущання і залякування потерпілого було примушування його нюхати мертву людину», – написала Венедіктова у фейсбуці. 31.173.82.91 ( talk) 18:47, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Neither reference provided properly supports, if even at all, the assertion of approximately 1,300 civilians killed KingMidasTheSecond ( talk) 21:50, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
Article doesn't say a word about ukrainian "Safari" regiment "cleansing saboteurs and collaborator". I wonder, how many victims were killed by them? https://lb.ua/society/2022/04/02/512039_polk_spetspriznachennya_safari_pochav.html https://24tv.ua/ru/specnazovcy-polka-policii-safari-nachali-zachistku-buchi_n1933189 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.251.215.180 ( talk) 06:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
ConfusedAndAfraid, RFE/RL is not the only source for the statement, and the BBC article clearly says that the basement was used (not " allegedly") by Russian troops for torture ("There, the Russians poured water over his legs so he would freeze, and they held a gun to his head." and adjacent paragraphs). Kleinpecan ( talk) 14:13, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
The elephant in the middle of the room, an elephant we don't want to see. The BBC and company are rooting for Ukraine. Pretending that the BBC and company, not to speak of think tanks like ISW or the Atlantic Council, are reliable and unbiased and have no agenda is rather naive in my opinion. All the pro_Russian sources are rejected because they are propaganda (they are), but I don't see the same scepticism when it comes to the pro-Ukrainian version. 62.99.89.51 ( talk) 11:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
Neither Human Rights Watch nor Amnesty Intl have retained this figure in their reports. They retained 22 cases of extrajudicial killings 2A01:E34:ECB9:690:C126:9E75:16D6:EDC2 ( talk) 14:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
In Bucha alone (Kyiv region), OHCHR documented the unlawful killings, including summary executions, of at least 50 civilians[10]. Where did you find the 22 cases figure? I see that Amnesty reported 22 cases of extrajudicial killings in Bucha, but that was at the end of May [11]. As far as I know, "at least 50 civilians" (OHCHR) is the most recent and reliable figure. I agree, however, that
According to local authorities, 458 bodies have been recovered from the townmight be misleading, as it suggests that all of them were killed in the "massacre", that is, voluntarily killed, while most of them probably died during the shelling and around 50 were actually murdered. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:37, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
The Washington Post: "... 458 bodies, of which 419 bore markings they had been shot, tortured or bludgeoned to death". Kleinpecan ( talk) 16:26, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Local authorities are not a sound base as they have a vested interest in painting a darker picture, as happens in every conflict. I take your point about OHCHR’s figure, which i hadn’t seen. Considering the almost 10x gap between OHCHR’s figures and local authorities’ figures, i would suggest that the page be edited to reflect rather large uncertainty.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:8440:3112:40a5:b591:58c6:89d4:3c08 ( talk • contribs)
Well, i happened to work in western international organizations for over 7 years at high level, and i can tell you that « at least 55 » means absolutely not « 450 ». So, until further massacres deaths are authentified by neutral organizations, i suggest you water down the assertion on the page, because, as is well known, the first casualty of war is truth. When additional victims will be documented, i will be the first one to recommend blaming the russians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8440:340F:940A:8825:23AC:8AF9:56F6 ( talk) 19:36, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
There is a lot of link clutter in the text. Should the reference style be changed to WP:LDR ? Grieg2 ( talk) 04:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
I placed a request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests#Bucha massacre to prepare for a Good Article Nom. // Timothy :: talk 15:06, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
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Add the following: Following the Russian withdrawal the Ukrainian armed force took control of the town for 10 days or so to weed out "collaborators". After this the journalists were allowed in and the bodies were shown leading to suggestions that the Ukrainians were responsible for the massacre. 203.214.159.8 ( talk) 05:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
There are 501 names on memorial plaques - https://meduza.io/short/2023/07/02/v-buche-otkryli-installyatsiyu-v-pamyat-o-zhitelyah-ubityh-vo-vremya-rossiyskoy-okkupatsii-fotografiya - a volunteer needed to please update lead and intro table with new figure. Manyareasexpert ( talk) 20:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
A Telegraph documentary (http youtu.be IrGZ66uKcl0) covers the early occupation. Given the lack of any final forensics report, which strongly suggests a result not well matching someone's narrative... It's an important source for neutrality since it shows and admits explicitly that:
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Reviewer: Golden ( talk · contribs) 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
I'll review this article. — Golden talk 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Eyewitness accounts from residents of Bucha said that the Russian Armed Forces carried out the killings.- I would add "Additionally" at the beginning of this sentence to better integrate it with the previous sentence.
moved south towards Kyiv.-> "moved south towards the city" to avoid repeating Kyiv twice in the same sentence.
men, women, and children- You use an Oxford comma in this instance, but not in many others. I assume that you prefer not to use the Oxford comma, so I won't include any points about where to insert them. If my assumption is incorrect, please let me know.
related that drunken Russian soldiers told them of carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians.- Does "related" have such a meaning as a verb? It's my first time coming across it. If yes, keep that, if not, rewrite the sentence like this: "Villagers who were asked to help identify a beheaded body reported that drunken Russian soldiers had told them about carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians."
Some of them had no light or electricity for weeks, using candles for heating water and cooking. They came out of hiding only when it was clear the Russians had left, welcoming the arrival of Ukrainian troops.- I believe this information would be more relevant to the article on the Battle of Bucha, as it does not directly pertain to the massacre itself. However, this is just a suggestion and is optional.
into events in Bucha-> "into the events in Bucha" since we're referring to specific events.
with the area treated as a crime scene- Do we know how large this area was? As in, did it cover the entirety of Bucha or only places where bodies were found?
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba- You've already introduced Kuleba earlier. Simply "Kuleba" or "Dmytro Kuleba" is enough here.
to show reporters and the world the reported atrocities in Bucha.- There's some editoralising here. Did Zelenskyy say he visited the area with reporters to "show them and the world the atrocities in Bucha"?
Russian forces used tanks to crush Ukrainian civilians in cars- This should also be in quotes.
EU Council. Also link, European Council.
President Zelenskyy- Simply using "Zelenskyy" is sufficient. This applies to all instances of "President Zelenskyy" in the article, except for the first mention of Zelenskyy.
orchestrated by British operatives in order to introduce new sanctions against Russia- This should be a quote.
Sergei Klokov, a driver for Moscow's police headquarters, who is originally from Bucha, was arrested after he told colleagues what he had heard from his father and Ukrainian family friends about the Russian invasion. Among Klokov's alleged crimes was saying that Russian soldiers were killing Ukrainian civilians.- This doesn't explicitly mention Bucha, so I'd remove it.