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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the Introduction paragraph continue to display a reference source from Encyclopedia Judaica (reference source citation [1]) when it was taken down by the website, and is a dead link (currently retained by use of Wayback Machine). Also, should the same reference source citation display the entire paragraph from the encyclopedia?
Full statement reads, as it is currently displayed in the WP article's reference citation:
Encyclopedia Judaica. Retrieved 5 October 2015. Haller's army ("Blue Army"), force of Polish volunteers organized in France during the last year of World War I, responsible for the murder of Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia and the Ukraine… Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them. In 1920, during the Polish offensive toward Kiev resulting from the Pilsudski-Petlyura alliance, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in the region.
Voting options:
--
E-960 (
talk)
17:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
This RFC has been heavily re-formatted by
Winged Blades
Godric
04:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC) at 04:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC).
Is not known why Jewish Virtual Library no longer features article HALLER'S ARMY. The JVL Source was: Encyclopaedia Judaica © 2008 (according to Wayback capture from 2011). The online Encyclopaedia Judaica has their own Search feature. Results for HALLER'S ARMY revealed "no content matched".
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Went ahead and removed a very questionable and sensationalist statement which read "pushed local Jews off moving trains", the source of this statement reads on page 1035, "In the Socialist paper Robotnik of June 8, 1919, a writer reported about the ordeal of Jewish passengers who were brutally dragged off the trains at Łucków railway station…" [1] big difference between getting thrown off a moving train to getting dragged-off at a railway station. -- E-960 ( talk) 07:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
References
I know you and Faustian want to add as much graphic detail as possible against Poles, but sorry when an original source cited in the book says that "Jewish passengers who were brutally dragged off the trains at Łucków railway station" and the author says "pushed local Jews off moving trains", that's a rather big discrepancy (a deliberate lie, a mistake or whatever), and it's better to omit this statement, instead of forcing it into the article and then accuse others of edit warring, any time there is an issue with articles related to Ukraine you and Faustain jump in to stonewall any change you don't like. -- E-960 ( talk) 15:00, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the statement in the lead that "individual soldiers acting on their own initiative" carried out these attacks. None of the three cited sources states this, and the Encyclopedia Judaica source, which comes closest, says something different:
Haller's army ("Blue Army"), force of Polish volunteers organized in France during the last year of World War I, responsible for the murder of Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia and the Ukraine… Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them. In 1920, during the Polish offensive toward Kiev resulting from the Pilsudski-Petlyura alliance, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in the region.
The source states, "While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them." That information should not be translated to "soldiers acted on their own initiative." - Darouet ( talk) 16:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
165.234.252.11, this intro text clearly creates undue-weigth (lacking proportionality), and pushes a specific POV which is inherently bias. This text highlighting a secondary issue in the intro paragraph and is problematic given the limited scope of this matter. The Morgenthou report stated that during the 3 years of conflict Jewish casualties only amounted to about 200–300 individuals (this was the result of not just the Blue Army of 68,000 soldiers, but all of Polish forces) — this is minuscule given the fact that thousands of Poles, Ukrainians and Russians died. Why is this so prominently highlighted, because in the past the "consensus" was pushed forward by the same two editors, who decided to make this the central point of the article. Just like with referencing campaigns in the intro paragraph, you don't just mention the Polish-Ukrainian war, but skip the Polish-Bolshevik war, so you don't just highlight Jewish casualties, but skip Polish or Ukrainian casualties. -- E-960 ( talk) 09:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following as misrepresentations, OR, SYNTH, or being based on unreliable sources -
"Now, as every researcher knows, the definition of what constitutes a “Jewish” name is a slippery one. Individuals with “Jewish” names often turn out to be anything but Jewish, and vice versa"- Goldstein basically scanned a list of 1,318 names in a casualty list and judged 62 to be probably Jewish. Goldstein's work does not seem to be cited by others (with the exception of a BA thesis).
We should be sticking to high quality sources, and we certainly shouldn't be misrepresenting sources. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:13, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
the area around Lviv- as Lwow is one of the major events Morgenthau looked at) is not supported by the source you are citing - David Engel does not write this in his journal article - which is what you are citing. I will further note that while Engel is a fine scholar, he is not known for his soothsaying abilities (Engel publishing in 1987 would find it hard to refer to Prusin in 2005). This is a a serious misrepresentation of Engel. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Faustian, I've opened up a noticeboard discussion here [13] to see if we can get other editors to review the text and assess possible neutrality issues, as it is clear that the topic of anti-Jewish violence covers way too much detail and receives exaggerated prominence. Also, since you are the author of all the critical text towards the Blue Army, which creates undue weight by depth of detail, quantity of text and prominence of placement — pls also review the Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources article which clearly highlights a problem in regards to reliable sources may be non-neutral, most of the sources you cite, though reliable, use extremely and bias language, and overstate the phenomenon given that this only relates to 200-300 casualties, in a 3 year conflict, involving 68,000 soldiers, and thousands of Polish and Ukrainian casualties — this is extremely bias. -- E-960 ( talk) 06:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
" "notorious Jew baiters" is about unacademic as you can get with a description"- the source for this statement is history professor/dr. Alexander V. Prusin [18] in book published by The University of Alabama Press on this specific topic. So - we have an editor discounting mass murder vs. academic sources that clearly see this as quite relevant for this organization. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
200-300 (two hundred to three hundred), during the course of the entire war, is not mass murder — again, exaggerated and sensationalist wording. -- E-960 ( talk) 12:25, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is not exactly about the changes being made to the article. In fact, I don't see any articulation of the supposed issues that are raised in the edit summary ("partisan"? "synth"? - how?) Volunteer Marek 13:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Soldiers involved in confirmed acts of antisemitism did receive punishment for their abusive actions. To counter some of the false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press, Polish Government officials, supported by French intelligence, stated that many of the alleged antisemitic tracts attributed to the Blue Army were in fact a product of willful disinformation based purely on hearsay and confabulation emanating from Russian and German government sources. Polish officials said that disinformation was part of an effort to discredit the new Polish Government, and in the process weaken the much needed Allied support for the new Polish State.. Professor Carole Fink most certainly does not write that there were "false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press". Icewhiz ( talk) 14:09, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
In an effort to curb the abuses,is not supported by the 1920 yearbook source), [19] restored the stable version of the lede, and removed a gross misrepresentation of a source. @ Volunteer Marek: - you restored the passage above which in our voice states
"Soldiers involved in confirmed acts of antisemitism did receive punishment for their abusive actions"and
"To counter some of the false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press"- supposedly sourced to page 227 of a book by professor Carole Fink. I read page 227 of Defending the Rights of Others - it does not support this language. It does support the existence of a Polish government propaganda effort. As you restored this content - please demonstrate how this is supported by the source. I also corrected this to match the actual footnote, and removed this piece of OR/SYNTH (which is not stated in the source). If you haven't actually checked what you are reverting - I suggest you self-revert - misrepresenting sources is a rather big deal. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:33, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is interesting to compare this article to the article about West Ukrainian People's Republic. Both articles concern the same conflict and timeframe as well as area. Whereas here the article is almost in 40% about persecution of national minority, the West Ukrainian People's Republic article barely mentions the mass oppression of Polish population and atrocities that happened there. In fact if you read it there's barely mention of it at all, and any attacks on Polish civilians are blamed on "Polish sabotage". Why are the two cases of persecution of national groups treated so differently in two articles on the same conflict? It is even more striking if you consider that West Ukrainian People's Republic had camps for ethnic Poles where thousands died in poor conditions, a death toll far bigger than the one here. To me this comparision does indicate POV issues with the treatment of these topics.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:52, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Anti-Jewish violence by Haller's troops are not denied by anyone, Haller himself issued orders (which were not carried out by his men) for these attacks to cease. Academic sources treat these incidents as factual. At best, there are very marginal (and mostly periodic propaganda by the Polish government) sources disputing the scale of the attacks. Titling the section as Reports of anti-Jewish violence [20] is not concise and is a flagrant NPOV issue since it introduces false doubt - not supported by any credible source. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:32, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the "Reports of anti-Jewish sentiment" section is an elaboration on the paragraphs that follow - the reverse order of things. The section should start with the description of the events, and only then go on to provide explanations.
Any objections? François Robere ( talk) 19:29, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
"Soldiers who targeted local Jewish and Ukrainian civilians believed that they were collaborating with Poland's enemies, either the Ukrainian Galician Army or Bolshevik Russia"(one of a multitude of causes).
The antagonism exhibited towards non-Polish ethnic groups by some of Haller's soldiers directly stemmed from earlier events of the Greater Poland Uprising when Poles rose up against German rule only to find out that the Jews in the region sided with the German authorities, a decision primarily based on economic factorsattributed to page 103 of Prusin - is a gross misrepresentation. Prusin cites a number of causes - 1. Statements by Pilsudski and leaflets by the "Committee of Jewish Pogroms" - sounded to the crowds as official state sanction for the attacks. 2. Socioeconomic tensions - Polish resentment of their government's unwillingness to carry out land reforms - leading to cries of "down with the landlords and Jews!" (during attacks). 3. Lack of compensation to Polish soldiers (by the gvmt) - looting Jews was seen as partial compensation for hardship by soldiers, who had no moral dilemma doing so. 4. Unleashing personal frustration on an easy target - the Jews. 5. In relation to the Ponzan regiments (but not Haller!) - Jewish cooperation with the Germans in the winter of 1919. 6. For Haller specifically - Jewish-Polish relations going from bad to worse in the United States in WWI. 7. The Jewish Bolshevism canard .... So no - Prusin does not attribute this as a cause for Haller (and he doesn't say "economic factors" were a reason for siding with the Germans in Ponzan) - Haller's troops weren't in Ponzan.
At this point, this is clearly undue weight and after a string of recent edits the article has about 3,100 words of which 900 (30%) are in the anti-Jewish violence section and intro statement. What's most troubling is that some editors despite good faith calls to balance out the text actually added even more detail. I don't understand how that helps the situation.
To suit editors who feel that this issue should include more detail, I've created a separate page, since this one issue is taking over the Blue Army article. Given the word count numbers above, it's clear that a separate article is needed.
Pls note that a new article Anti-Jewish violence in Eastern Galicia involving soldiers of the Blue Army has been created. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
E-960 Actually, I didn't add anything. So your accusation of "point of view pushing" is misdirected.
The history is what it is.
But
Bowdlerizing history and
Cover ups is not how Wikipedia works, either. Apparently you have a very large rug handy.
You are disregarding
WP:Consensus.
If you won't like the article the way it is, make it better and more comprehensive.
7&6=thirteen (
☎)
18:26, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
30% is not bad, I'd worry if it was over 50%. A dedicated article seems like a fair option, as the topic has been studied and discussed, and it is possible some content could be moved to it. I generlaly agree with Faustian the best solution would be to expand the article's other sections, it is certainly not too long. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The underlying issue is that there are two literatures here. If you look at the literature on Polish-Jewish relations during the interwar period, then yeah, those sources will discuss the Blue Army and what it did in that context. But if you look at the literature which is specifically about the Blue Army then the anti-semitic occurrences usually get a brief mention - because at this time in this war/time period, pretty much every army involved - the moderate Ukrainian nationalists, the not so moderate Ukrainian nationalists, the pro-Bolshevik Ukrainians, the White Russians of various stripes, the Bolsheviks (in particular Buddonny) were guilty of anti-semitism and pogroms. And because, the Blue Army's primary notability lies elsewhere - the role it played in establishing an independent Poland. So the question becomes what weight should the two different literatures be given in the article. I think it makes more sense to follow the sources which are specifically dedicated to the Blue Army, since that is the subject of this article. Which means that yes, the anti-semitic acts should be mentioned here but should not be given undue weight. In other articles, which specifically relate to Polish-Jewish relations in the interwar period, these same acts should get more coverage. Volunteer Marek 16:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
No idea what this argument is about. The information looks WP:DUE (both on its own accord and for the number of scholars it kept busy at night) and properly sourced, and the argument against it sounds more like "but they did great things!!!" than "this doesn't reflect the relative importance given to it by scholars". Could it be more concise? Sure, but it's not actually that long to begin with - overall it's a pretty straightforward account of events. François Robere ( talk) 20:21, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The 1st Cavalry Army article is under-developed. If someone expanded it to 30% of it being reliably-sourced content on anti-Jewish violence, I don't think anyone would object. Even if it were filled with 90% of such content, it would still be an improvement over the present state.
Edits should generally follow sources; if reliable sources do not cover the Army's battlefield performance to the extent that they cover violence against civilians, then the article should reflect that. I think the objection to undue weight would be valid if editors were trying to block an expansion of the article to include other content, but I'm not seeing it here. K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the Introduction paragraph continue to display a reference source from Encyclopedia Judaica (reference source citation [1]) when it was taken down by the website, and is a dead link (currently retained by use of Wayback Machine). Also, should the same reference source citation display the entire paragraph from the encyclopedia?
Full statement reads, as it is currently displayed in the WP article's reference citation:
Encyclopedia Judaica. Retrieved 5 October 2015. Haller's army ("Blue Army"), force of Polish volunteers organized in France during the last year of World War I, responsible for the murder of Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia and the Ukraine… Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them. In 1920, during the Polish offensive toward Kiev resulting from the Pilsudski-Petlyura alliance, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in the region.
Voting options:
--
E-960 (
talk)
17:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
This RFC has been heavily re-formatted by
Winged Blades
Godric
04:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC) at 04:00, 9 April 2017 (UTC).
Is not known why Jewish Virtual Library no longer features article HALLER'S ARMY. The JVL Source was: Encyclopaedia Judaica © 2008 (according to Wayback capture from 2011). The online Encyclopaedia Judaica has their own Search feature. Results for HALLER'S ARMY revealed "no content matched".
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)Went ahead and removed a very questionable and sensationalist statement which read "pushed local Jews off moving trains", the source of this statement reads on page 1035, "In the Socialist paper Robotnik of June 8, 1919, a writer reported about the ordeal of Jewish passengers who were brutally dragged off the trains at Łucków railway station…" [1] big difference between getting thrown off a moving train to getting dragged-off at a railway station. -- E-960 ( talk) 07:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
References
I know you and Faustian want to add as much graphic detail as possible against Poles, but sorry when an original source cited in the book says that "Jewish passengers who were brutally dragged off the trains at Łucków railway station" and the author says "pushed local Jews off moving trains", that's a rather big discrepancy (a deliberate lie, a mistake or whatever), and it's better to omit this statement, instead of forcing it into the article and then accuse others of edit warring, any time there is an issue with articles related to Ukraine you and Faustain jump in to stonewall any change you don't like. -- E-960 ( talk) 15:00, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I have removed the statement in the lead that "individual soldiers acting on their own initiative" carried out these attacks. None of the three cited sources states this, and the Encyclopedia Judaica source, which comes closest, says something different:
Haller's army ("Blue Army"), force of Polish volunteers organized in France during the last year of World War I, responsible for the murder of Jews and anti-Jewish pogroms in Galicia and the Ukraine… Foreign officers and the ties with France kept Haller's forces independent of the official Polish command, a fact exploited by Haller's soldiers (called the "Hallerczycy") for undisciplined and unbridled excesses against Jewish communities in Galicia. Attacks on individual Jews on the streets and highways, murderous pogroms on Jewish settlements, and deliberate provocative acts became commonplace. While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them. In 1920, during the Polish offensive toward Kiev resulting from the Pilsudski-Petlyura alliance, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in the region.
The source states, "While these may have been on the initiative of individual soldiers, they were known to their officers, if not openly supported by them." That information should not be translated to "soldiers acted on their own initiative." - Darouet ( talk) 16:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
165.234.252.11, this intro text clearly creates undue-weigth (lacking proportionality), and pushes a specific POV which is inherently bias. This text highlighting a secondary issue in the intro paragraph and is problematic given the limited scope of this matter. The Morgenthou report stated that during the 3 years of conflict Jewish casualties only amounted to about 200–300 individuals (this was the result of not just the Blue Army of 68,000 soldiers, but all of Polish forces) — this is minuscule given the fact that thousands of Poles, Ukrainians and Russians died. Why is this so prominently highlighted, because in the past the "consensus" was pushed forward by the same two editors, who decided to make this the central point of the article. Just like with referencing campaigns in the intro paragraph, you don't just mention the Polish-Ukrainian war, but skip the Polish-Bolshevik war, so you don't just highlight Jewish casualties, but skip Polish or Ukrainian casualties. -- E-960 ( talk) 09:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the following as misrepresentations, OR, SYNTH, or being based on unreliable sources -
"Now, as every researcher knows, the definition of what constitutes a “Jewish” name is a slippery one. Individuals with “Jewish” names often turn out to be anything but Jewish, and vice versa"- Goldstein basically scanned a list of 1,318 names in a casualty list and judged 62 to be probably Jewish. Goldstein's work does not seem to be cited by others (with the exception of a BA thesis).
We should be sticking to high quality sources, and we certainly shouldn't be misrepresenting sources. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:13, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
the area around Lviv- as Lwow is one of the major events Morgenthau looked at) is not supported by the source you are citing - David Engel does not write this in his journal article - which is what you are citing. I will further note that while Engel is a fine scholar, he is not known for his soothsaying abilities (Engel publishing in 1987 would find it hard to refer to Prusin in 2005). This is a a serious misrepresentation of Engel. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Faustian, I've opened up a noticeboard discussion here [13] to see if we can get other editors to review the text and assess possible neutrality issues, as it is clear that the topic of anti-Jewish violence covers way too much detail and receives exaggerated prominence. Also, since you are the author of all the critical text towards the Blue Army, which creates undue weight by depth of detail, quantity of text and prominence of placement — pls also review the Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources article which clearly highlights a problem in regards to reliable sources may be non-neutral, most of the sources you cite, though reliable, use extremely and bias language, and overstate the phenomenon given that this only relates to 200-300 casualties, in a 3 year conflict, involving 68,000 soldiers, and thousands of Polish and Ukrainian casualties — this is extremely bias. -- E-960 ( talk) 06:30, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
" "notorious Jew baiters" is about unacademic as you can get with a description"- the source for this statement is history professor/dr. Alexander V. Prusin [18] in book published by The University of Alabama Press on this specific topic. So - we have an editor discounting mass murder vs. academic sources that clearly see this as quite relevant for this organization. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:00, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
200-300 (two hundred to three hundred), during the course of the entire war, is not mass murder — again, exaggerated and sensationalist wording. -- E-960 ( talk) 12:25, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is not exactly about the changes being made to the article. In fact, I don't see any articulation of the supposed issues that are raised in the edit summary ("partisan"? "synth"? - how?) Volunteer Marek 13:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Soldiers involved in confirmed acts of antisemitism did receive punishment for their abusive actions. To counter some of the false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press, Polish Government officials, supported by French intelligence, stated that many of the alleged antisemitic tracts attributed to the Blue Army were in fact a product of willful disinformation based purely on hearsay and confabulation emanating from Russian and German government sources. Polish officials said that disinformation was part of an effort to discredit the new Polish Government, and in the process weaken the much needed Allied support for the new Polish State.. Professor Carole Fink most certainly does not write that there were "false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press". Icewhiz ( talk) 14:09, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
In an effort to curb the abuses,is not supported by the 1920 yearbook source), [19] restored the stable version of the lede, and removed a gross misrepresentation of a source. @ Volunteer Marek: - you restored the passage above which in our voice states
"Soldiers involved in confirmed acts of antisemitism did receive punishment for their abusive actions"and
"To counter some of the false or exaggerated claims of antisemitism that were reported by the press"- supposedly sourced to page 227 of a book by professor Carole Fink. I read page 227 of Defending the Rights of Others - it does not support this language. It does support the existence of a Polish government propaganda effort. As you restored this content - please demonstrate how this is supported by the source. I also corrected this to match the actual footnote, and removed this piece of OR/SYNTH (which is not stated in the source). If you haven't actually checked what you are reverting - I suggest you self-revert - misrepresenting sources is a rather big deal. Icewhiz ( talk) 16:33, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I think it is interesting to compare this article to the article about West Ukrainian People's Republic. Both articles concern the same conflict and timeframe as well as area. Whereas here the article is almost in 40% about persecution of national minority, the West Ukrainian People's Republic article barely mentions the mass oppression of Polish population and atrocities that happened there. In fact if you read it there's barely mention of it at all, and any attacks on Polish civilians are blamed on "Polish sabotage". Why are the two cases of persecution of national groups treated so differently in two articles on the same conflict? It is even more striking if you consider that West Ukrainian People's Republic had camps for ethnic Poles where thousands died in poor conditions, a death toll far bigger than the one here. To me this comparision does indicate POV issues with the treatment of these topics.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 19:52, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
Anti-Jewish violence by Haller's troops are not denied by anyone, Haller himself issued orders (which were not carried out by his men) for these attacks to cease. Academic sources treat these incidents as factual. At best, there are very marginal (and mostly periodic propaganda by the Polish government) sources disputing the scale of the attacks. Titling the section as Reports of anti-Jewish violence [20] is not concise and is a flagrant NPOV issue since it introduces false doubt - not supported by any credible source. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:32, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the "Reports of anti-Jewish sentiment" section is an elaboration on the paragraphs that follow - the reverse order of things. The section should start with the description of the events, and only then go on to provide explanations.
Any objections? François Robere ( talk) 19:29, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
"Soldiers who targeted local Jewish and Ukrainian civilians believed that they were collaborating with Poland's enemies, either the Ukrainian Galician Army or Bolshevik Russia"(one of a multitude of causes).
The antagonism exhibited towards non-Polish ethnic groups by some of Haller's soldiers directly stemmed from earlier events of the Greater Poland Uprising when Poles rose up against German rule only to find out that the Jews in the region sided with the German authorities, a decision primarily based on economic factorsattributed to page 103 of Prusin - is a gross misrepresentation. Prusin cites a number of causes - 1. Statements by Pilsudski and leaflets by the "Committee of Jewish Pogroms" - sounded to the crowds as official state sanction for the attacks. 2. Socioeconomic tensions - Polish resentment of their government's unwillingness to carry out land reforms - leading to cries of "down with the landlords and Jews!" (during attacks). 3. Lack of compensation to Polish soldiers (by the gvmt) - looting Jews was seen as partial compensation for hardship by soldiers, who had no moral dilemma doing so. 4. Unleashing personal frustration on an easy target - the Jews. 5. In relation to the Ponzan regiments (but not Haller!) - Jewish cooperation with the Germans in the winter of 1919. 6. For Haller specifically - Jewish-Polish relations going from bad to worse in the United States in WWI. 7. The Jewish Bolshevism canard .... So no - Prusin does not attribute this as a cause for Haller (and he doesn't say "economic factors" were a reason for siding with the Germans in Ponzan) - Haller's troops weren't in Ponzan.
At this point, this is clearly undue weight and after a string of recent edits the article has about 3,100 words of which 900 (30%) are in the anti-Jewish violence section and intro statement. What's most troubling is that some editors despite good faith calls to balance out the text actually added even more detail. I don't understand how that helps the situation.
To suit editors who feel that this issue should include more detail, I've created a separate page, since this one issue is taking over the Blue Army article. Given the word count numbers above, it's clear that a separate article is needed.
Pls note that a new article Anti-Jewish violence in Eastern Galicia involving soldiers of the Blue Army has been created. -- E-960 ( talk) 16:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
E-960 Actually, I didn't add anything. So your accusation of "point of view pushing" is misdirected.
The history is what it is.
But
Bowdlerizing history and
Cover ups is not how Wikipedia works, either. Apparently you have a very large rug handy.
You are disregarding
WP:Consensus.
If you won't like the article the way it is, make it better and more comprehensive.
7&6=thirteen (
☎)
18:26, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
30% is not bad, I'd worry if it was over 50%. A dedicated article seems like a fair option, as the topic has been studied and discussed, and it is possible some content could be moved to it. I generlaly agree with Faustian the best solution would be to expand the article's other sections, it is certainly not too long. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:12, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The underlying issue is that there are two literatures here. If you look at the literature on Polish-Jewish relations during the interwar period, then yeah, those sources will discuss the Blue Army and what it did in that context. But if you look at the literature which is specifically about the Blue Army then the anti-semitic occurrences usually get a brief mention - because at this time in this war/time period, pretty much every army involved - the moderate Ukrainian nationalists, the not so moderate Ukrainian nationalists, the pro-Bolshevik Ukrainians, the White Russians of various stripes, the Bolsheviks (in particular Buddonny) were guilty of anti-semitism and pogroms. And because, the Blue Army's primary notability lies elsewhere - the role it played in establishing an independent Poland. So the question becomes what weight should the two different literatures be given in the article. I think it makes more sense to follow the sources which are specifically dedicated to the Blue Army, since that is the subject of this article. Which means that yes, the anti-semitic acts should be mentioned here but should not be given undue weight. In other articles, which specifically relate to Polish-Jewish relations in the interwar period, these same acts should get more coverage. Volunteer Marek 16:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
No idea what this argument is about. The information looks WP:DUE (both on its own accord and for the number of scholars it kept busy at night) and properly sourced, and the argument against it sounds more like "but they did great things!!!" than "this doesn't reflect the relative importance given to it by scholars". Could it be more concise? Sure, but it's not actually that long to begin with - overall it's a pretty straightforward account of events. François Robere ( talk) 20:21, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
The 1st Cavalry Army article is under-developed. If someone expanded it to 30% of it being reliably-sourced content on anti-Jewish violence, I don't think anyone would object. Even if it were filled with 90% of such content, it would still be an improvement over the present state.
Edits should generally follow sources; if reliable sources do not cover the Army's battlefield performance to the extent that they cover violence against civilians, then the article should reflect that. I think the objection to undue weight would be valid if editors were trying to block an expansion of the article to include other content, but I'm not seeing it here. K.e.coffman ( talk) 00:27, 13 October 2018 (UTC)