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This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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In relation to genocide, the the stable version of the lead states: "The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists."
Although there is an ongoing discussion on the wording of the lead (above), a couple of editors have sought to change this without discussion to: "Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The problem with this change is that it presents only one side of an ongoing debate among scholars on the issue. The two editors also removed the following sentence from the section of the article on the genocide controversy: "However, other historians including Henry Reynolds, Richard Broome, and Nicholas Clements do not agree with the genocide thesis, arguing that the colonial authorities did not intend to destroy the Aboriginal population in whole or in part. [1] [2]"
Under policy, articles should be written from a neutral point of view and seriously contested assertions should not be stated as facts. Reynolds, Broome and Clements are leading scholars on the Black Wars and their research indicates that there is a serious debate on the question of genocide. Other scholars such as Josephine Flood also question the genocide thesis. There is no reason under policy to remove the statement that these scholars contest the genocide thesis and then to alter the lead in a way that suggests that all scholars agree with the genocide theory. I believe the stable version of the lead is an accurate summary of the relevant part of the article, is written from a NPOV, and should remain until a clear consensus based on policy is reached on alternative wording. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 13:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
References
|
NOTE: THIS RFC HAS BEEN REWORDED.
OLD RFC Question: There is an ongoing editorial dispute on this page as to the use of the word 'Genocide' in the article's lede.
Should the word 'Genocide' be used in the lede of this article?
NEW RFC Question: There is an ongoing editorial dispute as to the wording of the article's lede.
Which of the following drafts for the lede is preferred?
A: The Black War was the genocide of Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania by British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
B: The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The event has been retrospectively described as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
C: The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
D: The Black War is a term used to refer to the violent conflict Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania and British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832. This conflict has been characterised retrospectively by many historians as a form of genocide.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died.
Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history". Jack4576 ( talk) 10:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
The Black War was the genocide of Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania by British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The Black War is a term used to refer to the violent conflict Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania and British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832. This conflict has been characterised retrospectively by many historians as a form of genocide.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died.
Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The event has been retrospectively described as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
This is becoming very confusing ...— Agreed. In particular I note that the four options, currently nicely formatted and easily readable under "Comment - Restated Question" have been re-ordered when presented (unformatted, harder to read) as "NEW RFC Question". If an editor !votes just by letter, eg "option A", there would be serious doubt as to which "option A" they were referring to.I suggest that regardless of which version the article is "reverted" to, this RFC should be withdrawn and re-created with a consistent and stable set of options to chose from. Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists. Lukewarmbeer ( talk) 09:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
This edit changes the lede from:
The Black War was ...
to:
The Black War is a term used to refer to ...
but the use of "is a term" is apparently contrary to WP:ISATERMFOR and WP:REFERS (independently of the use of the word "genocide"). Is the article about the war/conflict or about the term? I'm tempted to revert that change but I don't want to get tangled up in the current EW, nor muddy the waters of the #RfC use of the word Genocide. Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Hello all,
In the course of the closed RfC above, a few editors suggested that the lead should be expanded to provide more background. I propose the following version for discussion.
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. [1] [2]
When a British penal settlement was established in Tasmania (then called Van Diemen's Land) in 1803, the Aboriginal population was 3,000 to 7,000 people. [3] Until the 1820s, the British and Aboriginal people coexisted with only sporadic violence, often caused by settlers kidnapping Aboriginal women and children. Conflict intensified from 1824, as Aboriginal warriors resisted the rapid expansion of British settlement over their traditional lands. In 1828, the British declared martial law and in 1830 they unsuccessfully attempted to force hostile Aboriginal nations from the settled districts in a military operation called "The Black Line". In a series of "Friendly Missions" in 1830 and 1831, George Robinson and his Aboriginal negotiators secured the surrender of the Aboriginal belligerents. Martial law was revoked in January 1832. [4]
Almost all of the remaining Aboriginal peoples were removed from mainland Tasmania from 1832 to 1835, and the 220 survivors were eventually relocated to the Wybalenna Aboriginal Mission on Flinders Island. Infectious diseases and a low birth rate cut the Aboriginal population at Wybalenna to 46 when the mission was closed in 1847. [5] The frequent mass killings and near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War and its aftermath should be defined as genocide by the British colonists. [6]
References
- ^ Clements 2014, p. 1
- ^ Ryan 2012, p. 143
- ^ Ryan 2012, p. 11-17
- ^ Ryan (2024), p. 141
- ^ Reynolds 2001, p. 71
- ^ Clements 2014, p. 4
Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 07:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Hello all
I think the recent change to this section by User:Jack4576 is a big improvement, although I prefer the subheading to be "Academic discussion of genocide" rather than "Academic discussion of the genocide." The article makes it clear that there is a continuing academic debate on the issue and my wording presents this in a more neutral POV. I suppose the issue is whether we should use the Wikipedia voice WP:voice in this case to declare that there was a genocide. My view is that it is best to use more neutral wording when scholarly debate is ongoing. This isn't like the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide where there are almost no distinguished experts in the field who question genocide. The views of Lyndall Ryan and Boyce are also a bit more nuanced than is presented in the article and there are more serious scholars who question, or at least partially question, the genocide thesis than the article suggests. I will have a closer look at the wording over the next few days. Given that the issue of wikipedia voice is also relevant to the lead, I would be interested in what other editors think. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 07:44, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Black War article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
In relation to genocide, the the stable version of the lead states: "The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists."
Although there is an ongoing discussion on the wording of the lead (above), a couple of editors have sought to change this without discussion to: "Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The problem with this change is that it presents only one side of an ongoing debate among scholars on the issue. The two editors also removed the following sentence from the section of the article on the genocide controversy: "However, other historians including Henry Reynolds, Richard Broome, and Nicholas Clements do not agree with the genocide thesis, arguing that the colonial authorities did not intend to destroy the Aboriginal population in whole or in part. [1] [2]"
Under policy, articles should be written from a neutral point of view and seriously contested assertions should not be stated as facts. Reynolds, Broome and Clements are leading scholars on the Black Wars and their research indicates that there is a serious debate on the question of genocide. Other scholars such as Josephine Flood also question the genocide thesis. There is no reason under policy to remove the statement that these scholars contest the genocide thesis and then to alter the lead in a way that suggests that all scholars agree with the genocide theory. I believe the stable version of the lead is an accurate summary of the relevant part of the article, is written from a NPOV, and should remain until a clear consensus based on policy is reached on alternative wording. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 13:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
References
|
NOTE: THIS RFC HAS BEEN REWORDED.
OLD RFC Question: There is an ongoing editorial dispute on this page as to the use of the word 'Genocide' in the article's lede.
Should the word 'Genocide' be used in the lede of this article?
NEW RFC Question: There is an ongoing editorial dispute as to the wording of the article's lede.
Which of the following drafts for the lede is preferred?
A: The Black War was the genocide of Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania by British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
B: The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The event has been retrospectively described as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
C: The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
D: The Black War is a term used to refer to the violent conflict Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania and British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832. This conflict has been characterised retrospectively by many historians as a form of genocide.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died.
Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history". Jack4576 ( talk) 10:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
The Black War was the genocide of Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania by British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The Black War is a term used to refer to the violent conflict Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania and British colonists from the mid-1820s to 1832. This conflict has been characterised retrospectively by many historians as a form of genocide.
British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional lands of the Aboriginal people. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died.
Scholars classify the event as an instance of settler colonialism and an instance of genocide against Indigenous peoples. The author of the concept of genocide, Raphael Lemkin, considered Tasmania the site of one of the world's clear cases of genocide and Hughes has described the loss of Aboriginal Tasmanians as "the only true genocide in English colonial history".
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands.
The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The event has been retrospectively described as an act of genocide by the British colonists.
This is becoming very confusing ...— Agreed. In particular I note that the four options, currently nicely formatted and easily readable under "Comment - Restated Question" have been re-ordered when presented (unformatted, harder to read) as "NEW RFC Question". If an editor !votes just by letter, eg "option A", there would be serious doubt as to which "option A" they were referring to.I suggest that regardless of which version the article is "reverted" to, this RFC should be withdrawn and re-created with a consistent and stable set of options to chose from. Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:29, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832, as British settlement spread rapidly over the traditional Aboriginal lands. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. The near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians and the frequent incidence of mass killings have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War should be defined as an act of genocide by the British colonists. Lukewarmbeer ( talk) 09:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
This edit changes the lede from:
The Black War was ...
to:
The Black War is a term used to refer to ...
but the use of "is a term" is apparently contrary to WP:ISATERMFOR and WP:REFERS (independently of the use of the word "genocide"). Is the article about the war/conflict or about the term? I'm tempted to revert that change but I don't want to get tangled up in the current EW, nor muddy the waters of the #RfC use of the word Genocide. Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
Hello all,
In the course of the closed RfC above, a few editors suggested that the lead should be expanded to provide more background. I propose the following version for discussion.
The Black War was a period of violent conflict between British colonists and Aboriginal Tasmanians in Tasmania from the mid-1820s to 1832. The conflict was fought largely as a guerrilla war by both sides; some 600 to 900 Aboriginal people and more than 200 British colonists died. [1] [2]
When a British penal settlement was established in Tasmania (then called Van Diemen's Land) in 1803, the Aboriginal population was 3,000 to 7,000 people. [3] Until the 1820s, the British and Aboriginal people coexisted with only sporadic violence, often caused by settlers kidnapping Aboriginal women and children. Conflict intensified from 1824, as Aboriginal warriors resisted the rapid expansion of British settlement over their traditional lands. In 1828, the British declared martial law and in 1830 they unsuccessfully attempted to force hostile Aboriginal nations from the settled districts in a military operation called "The Black Line". In a series of "Friendly Missions" in 1830 and 1831, George Robinson and his Aboriginal negotiators secured the surrender of the Aboriginal belligerents. Martial law was revoked in January 1832. [4]
Almost all of the remaining Aboriginal peoples were removed from mainland Tasmania from 1832 to 1835, and the 220 survivors were eventually relocated to the Wybalenna Aboriginal Mission on Flinders Island. Infectious diseases and a low birth rate cut the Aboriginal population at Wybalenna to 46 when the mission was closed in 1847. [5] The frequent mass killings and near-destruction of the Aboriginal Tasmanians have sparked debate among historians over whether the Black War and its aftermath should be defined as genocide by the British colonists. [6]
References
- ^ Clements 2014, p. 1
- ^ Ryan 2012, p. 143
- ^ Ryan 2012, p. 11-17
- ^ Ryan (2024), p. 141
- ^ Reynolds 2001, p. 71
- ^ Clements 2014, p. 4
Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 07:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Hello all
I think the recent change to this section by User:Jack4576 is a big improvement, although I prefer the subheading to be "Academic discussion of genocide" rather than "Academic discussion of the genocide." The article makes it clear that there is a continuing academic debate on the issue and my wording presents this in a more neutral POV. I suppose the issue is whether we should use the Wikipedia voice WP:voice in this case to declare that there was a genocide. My view is that it is best to use more neutral wording when scholarly debate is ongoing. This isn't like the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide where there are almost no distinguished experts in the field who question genocide. The views of Lyndall Ryan and Boyce are also a bit more nuanced than is presented in the article and there are more serious scholars who question, or at least partially question, the genocide thesis than the article suggests. I will have a closer look at the wording over the next few days. Given that the issue of wikipedia voice is also relevant to the lead, I would be interested in what other editors think. Aemilius Adolphin ( talk) 07:44, 28 May 2024 (UTC)