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Wasn't naming of the country solved already elsewhere? If not, then the name use by the people of Macedonia should be used and disputes left to article about the state. Pavel Vozenilek 18:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Obtielj = Bitola is the reading of original Beitola the other way around or from reverse. The present name is from Ottoma era "Beitola" which from Arabaic means the House of God. In fact, when the Ottomans conquered the city, they found it like the House of God. Given that the name of God in Arabic is Allah, and of the Kabba "Beit-Allah", then it is clear what Beit-A(o)lla means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.125.187 ( talk) 23:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The existance of Greeks in Monastiri/Bitola is not a political game. It is a fact. Greeks of Monastiri live not because of a political dispute. They live in Monastiri as their grand grand parents for over 4.000 years. I don't think they live in Monastiri only for causing political disputes. They just exist.
The main evidence is the "Republic of Macedonia" policy. During the last 10 years a lot of Greeks are terrorised by the "Republic of Macedonia" police. These are described in the European Court of Hague. Greeks are not free to declare their Greek identity. Another reason is that as they are forced by the authorities to declare "Macedonians", actually they say the truth. Because they are Macedonians indeed, although the term "Macedonian" has a different meaning for the Greeks. They are just Macedonian Greeks (like Cretan Greeks, Peloponnessian Greeks etc.). If there was freedom and democracy in the "Republic of Macedonia" we could see the actual number of the Greeks.Chrusts 09:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
I live myself in Monastiri,and there was never Greeks around the present Republic of Macedonia.This is an attempt by Dora Bakoyanis,to trigger violence,for an apparent Greek minority in my country...I think you guys confused Greeks with Vlachs,and I'm one of them...So there you go,bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.173.237 ( talk) 09:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Pulvis angelus, you are mixing a town with a municipality. Bitola is the second largest town in Macedonia after Skopje and third largest municipality after Kumanovo. Lets see the data presented from the census in 1991: Then the municipality of Bitola had a population of 122,173 ( [1]) and the municipality of Kumanovo had 135.529 ( [2]). But, please notice that in the table is described the ratio between the city population (69.251) and in the farmers (66.278), in other words, about a half of the Kumanovo municipality citizens lived in the villages. So, in that period Kumanovo had approximately 70 000 citizens. Also, notice that the city population on the census performed in 1994 dropped to 66.237 (you can see that in the same article). The cituation in municipality of Bitola is much different because the population that live in the villages is much smaller than the population that live in the town. You can also check the following data from the 1994 census (click on the picture): [3] Bitola 13:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Bitola is the name used by the people of Macedonia. Also, I think that this article has a lot of Albanian POV. Somebody with better knowledge of the city history should check this. User:PANONIAN
Finally to hear something reasonable. Because I created the recent look of the article, I'm feeling responsible what will stay in it. My actions are not done based on my personal feelings; instead, I used several different historical sources. According to almost every source I found so far, Bitola as a settlement was established by the Macedonian Slavs that shifted in this area in the VI century: [4], [5]. Regarding the name, it is considered that the current official name have been gradually derived from the old Slavonic word Obitel. So far, I found two different meanings for the word, the first one tells that it means a monastery, monastery place or monastery settlement and the second one tells that it means a family or house, an area of living. Very interesting fact that supports the second meaning is that the modern Serbian/Croatian word for family is Obitelj (I’m not sure for the other Slavic languages as Russian and Bulgarian): [6], [7]. Maybe the truth lies (as always) in between, probably the word means a Christian/monastery community, family: [8]. However, you can notice that this word is not directly derived from the Greek word Monastery (Obitel and Monastery as words have completely different structures). According to every source I found so far in the written literature I had, the Byzantium sources called the town Butela, Butelion, Botila, Botili, even Pelagonia as it is stated in Britannica. I believed that the naming section satisfies both sides, because it provides the description of the Slavic word Obitel, as well as the fact that the Turkish, official name of the city before 1913 was Monastiri, derived from the Greek word for monastery (although we have no source for this claim). I also tried to explain that on the user:Miskin, Andreas and user:Hectorian talk pages. Unfortunately, some users don't know nothing else than mercilessly reverting what I have built not easily and in a really good faith. Even Latinus is now searching a way to block me from editing. If that will satisfy you, then please, go on, maybe if we Macedonians give up from editing (I must admit that I'm considering that option seriously), you can freely write everything you want, regardless if that is true or not. Bitola 01:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree and please, if the other editors have no objection on this, rewrite the section according to your proposal. Bitola 18:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"I thought Slavic invaders not being Christian" was common knowledge, otherwise why would Cyril be credited for their Christianization [12]. It would be simpler to just find some maps of the Justianian era. I do have a bunch under my possession but those sources are currently physically innaccessible. Miskin 18:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
When Slavs settled the town in the VI century (according to almost all sources on Internet and in the written literature I have), it was done in the vicinity of the ancient town of Heraclea Lyncestis which was already an important episcope centre. Archaeological excavations revealed rich presence of artefacts from the Early Christian period (see my new adds on the article) and maybe that was the reason why Slavs started to use the name related to Christianity: Obitel. Bitola 18:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The earliest source for either name is 11th century, by which time the Slavs had been christianized. Do we know whether they were christianized when they settled or named the place? I haven't seen any sources either way. Moreover, it is perfectly possible that there was a monastery of Greek-speaking monks in this place, but that the settlement near it was Slavic-speaking. You see this sort of thing in Britain, in Gaul, etc. In any case, all of this is speculation. Until someone comes up with better sources, I see no reason to presume that either name is original. -- Macrakis 18:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you Macrakis. As for the sources from the 11th century, we have incorporated in the article that the Slavic name of the city is mentioned in one of the tsar Samoil treaties. But, do you have some source from the 11th century that the name Monastiri was used in that period? If you have, please tell me and we could include that in the section as well. Thanks Bitola 19:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
In the area of Bitola there were never ever,any Greeks.It is propostrous to think that the area of Bitola has been Greek speaking when it wasn't.It is more certain that Peloponez had Slavs,rather than Bitola to have Greeks.I think that anything has to do with the dominance of the church,whether it was Bulgarian,Serb or Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.173.237 ( talk) 14:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
It is very unlikely the Greek word to derive from the Slavic (Monastir to come from Obitjal), because Slavs came later. The city was there already. Almost each of the significant places (whether mounteen, river, or towns) are preserved in the language of the newly came populations, it is a pattern. Just they can change the pronunciation according to the language of the new people, or they can be translated in the language of new people. This is not the case only with Slavs and Greeks, but everywhere. For example, the mounteen Orbelas preserved its name (losing the initial -or) Belas and gaining slavic suffix (-ica). Vardar changed its name from Axios to Velika (which mean the same), and most of the cities preserved their names (old cities). So probably Obitjal is translation for Monastir, if it is not from a form like Bouteli. That -lja (Bitol-j, Bitol-ja) might be an older suffix which has the same meaning as today's -ovo, so the name to mean 'a place where there are monasteries' etc. But it may also mean the same as the Skopje municipality Butel, for ex. It remains not very clear. And I am not a Greek. It seems to me, however that a name of a city would hardly come from monasteries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelazgo ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
At least, you could revert the page but include the corrections made by neutral users for irrelevant to the Greek origin of the name data (like Macrakis' correction of the link to the Greek wikipedia). Furthermore, the particular ip range 62.162... can be safely assumed that it evidently is the sockpuppet of a certain editor that has been blocked for repetitive reverts. Please stop, or there will be grounds for requesting a Range Block. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think that than anon is User:Bitola. A 62.162... anon make this comment and signed it as "Bitola" [13]. In this post, he says that he agrees to Macrakis's proposal and once he implements it, he uses a sock to revert it (while pretending to be someone else). Thus far, we have the following socks:
As I doubt that they belong to User:Realek, as his IP is 80.77.148.105 ( talk · contribs · block log) and appears to be a static one, whose else's can it be, but Bitola's. It also appears to be a dynamic IP. -- Latinus 20:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Do you really believe that I’m so immature after all I have done on WP? Although I’m not satisfied with the current solution (I will explain why or try to edit the section in the future), I have nothing with the current edit war around the Bitola article. My edits on that article ended on 17 March 2006 , 00:19. Since than, I didn’t make any single edit there! Actually, when I stopped with my edits on the article, I was a little bit frustrated and decided to take my “extended wikibreak” seriously, so you will not see me much around these days. Anonymous editing is not my style. Bitola 09:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
(Back to the left margin.)
Realek, you seem to be reading "X and the synonymous Y are attested..." to imply that Y is somehow secondary to X. I suppose you could interpret it that way, though that wasn't my intent in writing it. Would you prefer "X and Y are attested...; they are synonymous"? Stylistically, I don't think that flows as well. And stylistically, I think "The Slavic names A/B/C and the Greek name D" is a little heavier; but I would not object to exchanging the order. But isn't it a little silly to be quibbling about that? As for the Ottoman name, it is "Manastir" (obviously derived from the Greek name) as the article already says. -- Macrakis 15:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Although I’m officially on wikibreak, I don’t want to leave the things unfinished. I agreed and still agree with the Makrakis proposal. I just made a little rewording of the section in order set up equal mentioning of two most important names for the town and in the following order: 1. official name 2. former name (I think the recent look is slightly biased). I hope nobody will find offended by this and that this article will become an example of good cooperation between the Macedonian and Greek editors. Bitola 18:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konya, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
The second and third groups are mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race. Apostolos Margaritis 10:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)-- 3210 22:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it the third largest?! Is it the second largest?! Who knows? If you can't agree, leave it out. - FrancisTyers · 17:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC) As far as i know because i come from Bitola,it is the 2nd biggest city in Macedonia.
In the article about them it says that they were born in the village of Avdela. Shouldn't they be removed from here or does this Notable people from Bitola mean people that have lived there? -- Laveol 10:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:GRB201.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that if pictures were put on both sides of the page, not just on the right, the article may be more pleasing to the eye. Spencer 19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The title has Greek:Monastiri, i was wondering what sources there are that have Greek as the second most spoken langauge in Bitola? Last time i checked Roma were 3,46%, albanians at 2.36%, turks - 2.1%, Aromanians- 1,34%, Serbs - .66%, Bosnians - 0,002% and others at 0,67% or 497 people. Where are the greek speakers? PMK1 ( talk) 06:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, it was introduced "per Florina" so OTHERCRAPEXISTS can work both ways here. As I have always said, regardless of the supposed strength (or sanity) of the arguments, names in other languages in the lead cause the arguments, and so they should go. Balkan Fever 11:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Nice one. They still speak 'local Hellenic' in Bitola and some of the surrounding villages, but the 'local Hellenic' speakers call it Ellinika (Greek). But so what. Politis ( talk) 16:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I entered again the Greek name of the city, which IMO is necessary for obvious reasons (and it is difficult indeed for me to understand the reaction of certain users, such as Balkan Fever). Whether we like it or not, Greek history is related to this city, where the Greeks and Byzantines flourished for centuries; this is also the case for the spreading of the Greek language. After all it is the article itself which states that until 1911 the Greek element was dominant in the region. So erasing the Greek name from the lead is historical blindness!
There are also other similar examples, such as Smyrna, where, although there are very very few Greeks in the city, the Greek name is there. And how could it be different?! We speak about more than 2,000 years of Greek influence in the area. And the same stands for a series of other now-Greek or now-Turkish cities (see Alexandroupoli etc.). And don't tell me "raise the issue there, do not bother us here." Because all these examples indicate a certain practice, which should be taken into account.
After all, just make a quick serfing in google book to see how often the term "Monastir" appears. And even here in Wikipedia we have a Monastir dis article! So, are we going to pretend that all these things just do not exist?! And conceal a part of the city's history? Because that is exactly what the Greek name expresses. A part of the city's rich historical past.
In any case, if those disagreeing with me want more third-party input, this is no problem of course. I support an open invitation to any third-party editors are interested in to express their views.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 17:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a question of frequency of usage, international exposure. The city is clearly referred to as Monastiri until well after WWI, and rarely as Bitola - just look at the postcards, despaches, references. Its fame and fortune was built under the name Monastiri. Likewise for Istanbul, Alexandroupoli, Izmir. So the Monastiri reference should be up there next to Bitola. However, Florina had almost zero exposure as Lerin - just look at the maps; also the Lerin appelation already exists in the paragraph below. Any other choice for those two cities is, in my opinion, political (if not irredentist motivated). Politis ( talk) 17:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The Turkish case is different. Turkey markets its former-Hellenic cities under their Hellenic names - just look at their official brochures (admitedly, it does not recognise them as Greek, but as Helleno-Roman, Roman, Ionian, Lydian, etc). This, they believe, enhances their European credentials and, as our Turkish friends know, there is no overt or covert attempt by Greek rhetoric to appropriate those cities via their name. Also, in the west, those cities have a long history of being referred to by their ancient name. Politis ( talk) 17:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This section needs a quick spelling/grammar clean up: "Children from differend countries such as EU,Russia,Ukrain,Serbia,Croatia,BiH and Macedonia participate on this event which is usually consisted of 18-22 songs. This festival is supported by the association of culture "ProMedia" from Bitola which organized this event under a different topic every year.The only award at this festival is for interpretation." Menrunningpast ( talk) 00:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Could someone take a look at the statement and reference above ( link). It is unclear where Mr. Room got his information. I believe a more reliable source is probably in order. Aramgar ( talk) 17:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
BalkanFever: your edit stated, "whats the point of having three variants of the same name if they're not in english? especially since they are better treated in the etymolgoy section". I might call on your services in other articles to back me up. I leave your edit as it stands. Just one point, do the Albanian Macedonians call it Manastir? Politis ( talk) 09:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I think that Hristijan Spirovski and Nikolce Noveski should be removed from "People from Bitola". Dimitar Ilievski - Murato and Georgi Hristov are more remarkable than the other two, or at least you should add them in the main list in Bitola page, if there is no limit of how many names should be in the main list —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiderwebmkd ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
90.216.5.170 ( talk) 23:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)stramota kade e tuka durlovski najdobriot makedonski operski pejac,pa i toj e bitolcanec neli?
Isto Mile - Kuburot da ne go zaborajte da go spomnite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.247.13.225 ( talk) 14:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Latest revision as of 17:46, 5 January 2012 (edit) (undo) Athenean (talk | contribs) (edith durham is not a reliable source)
According to Athenean, Edith Durham is not a reliable source when she says that there were Orthodox Albanians living in Bitola, but strangely in the same article you can find Edith Durham, but this one seems reliable to Athenean:
A former dragoman who witnessed the Balkan Wars noted in January 1914 that "hardly a year has elapsed since Monastir fell into Servian hands, and this very short period has been enough to turn it into a desert city."[12]
^ Durham, M.Edith. Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, p255
I will undo the change of Athenean, because it seems that it just directed towards Albanians.
( Edvin ( talk) 18:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC))
The name Manastir was in use in Ottoman times. The Macedonian Alphabet is in use after 1944, i.e. it is impossible the name to was written in Macedonian during Ottoman times. Jingiby ( talk) 19:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Leasten, you Americans: Stop converting the facts about Slavish poulation in this region, in contrary we could ask from Russia to solve the problem!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.75.118 ( talk) 14:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
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Medieval history of the region is one of the least documented periods of its history. There are no direct or indirect sources of Clement's and Naum's activity in the area, and including them only by the virtue of Ohrid being geographically close to Bitola is not adequate. The medieval monasteries were mentioned twice. Repetitive use of the title "of Bulgaria" is clearly tendentious, as those figures are not known as "of Bulgaria" in any historiography, including the Bulgarian one (as a the matter of fact the articles on corresponding Wikipedia are never named as such, and there is no need of that whenever the article title is a unique name, especially in the case of Gavrilo Radomir). Throughout the whole article no other rulers are name "of [state]", which is right and in accordance with general and Wikipedias principles. I see no other reasons, except a suspicious non-NPOV motives for accentuating only one state when referring to medieval rulers.-- strich3D ( talk) 23:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I recently changed a segment of the Ottoman schools to specify that they had taught in the specific languages yet had my edit reverted and told that it is not an improvement. May I get an explanation for this, User:Jingiby ? Okrados ( talk) 03:23, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
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Wasn't naming of the country solved already elsewhere? If not, then the name use by the people of Macedonia should be used and disputes left to article about the state. Pavel Vozenilek 18:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Obtielj = Bitola is the reading of original Beitola the other way around or from reverse. The present name is from Ottoma era "Beitola" which from Arabaic means the House of God. In fact, when the Ottomans conquered the city, they found it like the House of God. Given that the name of God in Arabic is Allah, and of the Kabba "Beit-Allah", then it is clear what Beit-A(o)lla means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.125.187 ( talk) 23:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The existance of Greeks in Monastiri/Bitola is not a political game. It is a fact. Greeks of Monastiri live not because of a political dispute. They live in Monastiri as their grand grand parents for over 4.000 years. I don't think they live in Monastiri only for causing political disputes. They just exist.
The main evidence is the "Republic of Macedonia" policy. During the last 10 years a lot of Greeks are terrorised by the "Republic of Macedonia" police. These are described in the European Court of Hague. Greeks are not free to declare their Greek identity. Another reason is that as they are forced by the authorities to declare "Macedonians", actually they say the truth. Because they are Macedonians indeed, although the term "Macedonian" has a different meaning for the Greeks. They are just Macedonian Greeks (like Cretan Greeks, Peloponnessian Greeks etc.). If there was freedom and democracy in the "Republic of Macedonia" we could see the actual number of the Greeks.Chrusts 09:21, 3 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyraechmes ( talk • contribs)
I live myself in Monastiri,and there was never Greeks around the present Republic of Macedonia.This is an attempt by Dora Bakoyanis,to trigger violence,for an apparent Greek minority in my country...I think you guys confused Greeks with Vlachs,and I'm one of them...So there you go,bye... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.173.237 ( talk) 09:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Pulvis angelus, you are mixing a town with a municipality. Bitola is the second largest town in Macedonia after Skopje and third largest municipality after Kumanovo. Lets see the data presented from the census in 1991: Then the municipality of Bitola had a population of 122,173 ( [1]) and the municipality of Kumanovo had 135.529 ( [2]). But, please notice that in the table is described the ratio between the city population (69.251) and in the farmers (66.278), in other words, about a half of the Kumanovo municipality citizens lived in the villages. So, in that period Kumanovo had approximately 70 000 citizens. Also, notice that the city population on the census performed in 1994 dropped to 66.237 (you can see that in the same article). The cituation in municipality of Bitola is much different because the population that live in the villages is much smaller than the population that live in the town. You can also check the following data from the 1994 census (click on the picture): [3] Bitola 13:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Bitola is the name used by the people of Macedonia. Also, I think that this article has a lot of Albanian POV. Somebody with better knowledge of the city history should check this. User:PANONIAN
Finally to hear something reasonable. Because I created the recent look of the article, I'm feeling responsible what will stay in it. My actions are not done based on my personal feelings; instead, I used several different historical sources. According to almost every source I found so far, Bitola as a settlement was established by the Macedonian Slavs that shifted in this area in the VI century: [4], [5]. Regarding the name, it is considered that the current official name have been gradually derived from the old Slavonic word Obitel. So far, I found two different meanings for the word, the first one tells that it means a monastery, monastery place or monastery settlement and the second one tells that it means a family or house, an area of living. Very interesting fact that supports the second meaning is that the modern Serbian/Croatian word for family is Obitelj (I’m not sure for the other Slavic languages as Russian and Bulgarian): [6], [7]. Maybe the truth lies (as always) in between, probably the word means a Christian/monastery community, family: [8]. However, you can notice that this word is not directly derived from the Greek word Monastery (Obitel and Monastery as words have completely different structures). According to every source I found so far in the written literature I had, the Byzantium sources called the town Butela, Butelion, Botila, Botili, even Pelagonia as it is stated in Britannica. I believed that the naming section satisfies both sides, because it provides the description of the Slavic word Obitel, as well as the fact that the Turkish, official name of the city before 1913 was Monastiri, derived from the Greek word for monastery (although we have no source for this claim). I also tried to explain that on the user:Miskin, Andreas and user:Hectorian talk pages. Unfortunately, some users don't know nothing else than mercilessly reverting what I have built not easily and in a really good faith. Even Latinus is now searching a way to block me from editing. If that will satisfy you, then please, go on, maybe if we Macedonians give up from editing (I must admit that I'm considering that option seriously), you can freely write everything you want, regardless if that is true or not. Bitola 01:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree and please, if the other editors have no objection on this, rewrite the section according to your proposal. Bitola 18:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"I thought Slavic invaders not being Christian" was common knowledge, otherwise why would Cyril be credited for their Christianization [12]. It would be simpler to just find some maps of the Justianian era. I do have a bunch under my possession but those sources are currently physically innaccessible. Miskin 18:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
When Slavs settled the town in the VI century (according to almost all sources on Internet and in the written literature I have), it was done in the vicinity of the ancient town of Heraclea Lyncestis which was already an important episcope centre. Archaeological excavations revealed rich presence of artefacts from the Early Christian period (see my new adds on the article) and maybe that was the reason why Slavs started to use the name related to Christianity: Obitel. Bitola 18:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The earliest source for either name is 11th century, by which time the Slavs had been christianized. Do we know whether they were christianized when they settled or named the place? I haven't seen any sources either way. Moreover, it is perfectly possible that there was a monastery of Greek-speaking monks in this place, but that the settlement near it was Slavic-speaking. You see this sort of thing in Britain, in Gaul, etc. In any case, all of this is speculation. Until someone comes up with better sources, I see no reason to presume that either name is original. -- Macrakis 18:56, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you Macrakis. As for the sources from the 11th century, we have incorporated in the article that the Slavic name of the city is mentioned in one of the tsar Samoil treaties. But, do you have some source from the 11th century that the name Monastiri was used in that period? If you have, please tell me and we could include that in the section as well. Thanks Bitola 19:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
In the area of Bitola there were never ever,any Greeks.It is propostrous to think that the area of Bitola has been Greek speaking when it wasn't.It is more certain that Peloponez had Slavs,rather than Bitola to have Greeks.I think that anything has to do with the dominance of the church,whether it was Bulgarian,Serb or Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.173.237 ( talk) 14:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
It is very unlikely the Greek word to derive from the Slavic (Monastir to come from Obitjal), because Slavs came later. The city was there already. Almost each of the significant places (whether mounteen, river, or towns) are preserved in the language of the newly came populations, it is a pattern. Just they can change the pronunciation according to the language of the new people, or they can be translated in the language of new people. This is not the case only with Slavs and Greeks, but everywhere. For example, the mounteen Orbelas preserved its name (losing the initial -or) Belas and gaining slavic suffix (-ica). Vardar changed its name from Axios to Velika (which mean the same), and most of the cities preserved their names (old cities). So probably Obitjal is translation for Monastir, if it is not from a form like Bouteli. That -lja (Bitol-j, Bitol-ja) might be an older suffix which has the same meaning as today's -ovo, so the name to mean 'a place where there are monasteries' etc. But it may also mean the same as the Skopje municipality Butel, for ex. It remains not very clear. And I am not a Greek. It seems to me, however that a name of a city would hardly come from monasteries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pelazgo ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
At least, you could revert the page but include the corrections made by neutral users for irrelevant to the Greek origin of the name data (like Macrakis' correction of the link to the Greek wikipedia). Furthermore, the particular ip range 62.162... can be safely assumed that it evidently is the sockpuppet of a certain editor that has been blocked for repetitive reverts. Please stop, or there will be grounds for requesting a Range Block. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 20:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think that than anon is User:Bitola. A 62.162... anon make this comment and signed it as "Bitola" [13]. In this post, he says that he agrees to Macrakis's proposal and once he implements it, he uses a sock to revert it (while pretending to be someone else). Thus far, we have the following socks:
As I doubt that they belong to User:Realek, as his IP is 80.77.148.105 ( talk · contribs · block log) and appears to be a static one, whose else's can it be, but Bitola's. It also appears to be a dynamic IP. -- Latinus 20:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Do you really believe that I’m so immature after all I have done on WP? Although I’m not satisfied with the current solution (I will explain why or try to edit the section in the future), I have nothing with the current edit war around the Bitola article. My edits on that article ended on 17 March 2006 , 00:19. Since than, I didn’t make any single edit there! Actually, when I stopped with my edits on the article, I was a little bit frustrated and decided to take my “extended wikibreak” seriously, so you will not see me much around these days. Anonymous editing is not my style. Bitola 09:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
(Back to the left margin.)
Realek, you seem to be reading "X and the synonymous Y are attested..." to imply that Y is somehow secondary to X. I suppose you could interpret it that way, though that wasn't my intent in writing it. Would you prefer "X and Y are attested...; they are synonymous"? Stylistically, I don't think that flows as well. And stylistically, I think "The Slavic names A/B/C and the Greek name D" is a little heavier; but I would not object to exchanging the order. But isn't it a little silly to be quibbling about that? As for the Ottoman name, it is "Manastir" (obviously derived from the Greek name) as the article already says. -- Macrakis 15:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Although I’m officially on wikibreak, I don’t want to leave the things unfinished. I agreed and still agree with the Makrakis proposal. I just made a little rewording of the section in order set up equal mentioning of two most important names for the town and in the following order: 1. official name 2. former name (I think the recent look is slightly biased). I hope nobody will find offended by this and that this article will become an example of good cooperation between the Macedonian and Greek editors. Bitola 18:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
The first Turkish immigration from Asia Minor took place under the Byzantine emperors before the conquest of the country. The first purely Turkish town, Yenije-Vardar, was founded on the ruins of Vardar in 1362. After the capture of Salonica (1430), a strong Turkish population was settled in the city, and similar colonies were founded in Monastir, Ochrida, Serres, Drama and other important places. In many of these towns half or more of the population is still Turkish. A series of military colonies were subsequently established at various points of strategic importance along the principal lines of communication. Before 1360 large numbers of nomad shepherds, or Yuruks, from the district of Konya, in Asia Minor, had settled in the country; their descendants are still known as Konariotes. Further immigration from this region took place from time to time up to the middle of the 18th century. After the establishment of the feudal system in 1397 many of the Seljuk noble families came over from Asia Minor; their descendants may be recognized among the beys or Moslem landowners in southern Macedonia. At the beginning of the 18th century the Turkish population was very considerable, but since that time it has continuously decreased. A low birth rate, the exhaustion of the male population by military service, and great mortality from epidemics, against which Moslem fatalism takes no pre-cautions, have brought about a decline which has latterly been hastened by emigration
The Turkish rural population is found in three principal groups:
The second and third groups are mainly composed of Konariot shepherds. Besides these fairly compact settlements there are numerous isolated Turkish colonies in various parts of the country. The Turkish rural population is quiet, sober and orderly, presenting some of the best characteristics of the race. Apostolos Margaritis 10:44, 2 February 2006 (UTC)-- 3210 22:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it the third largest?! Is it the second largest?! Who knows? If you can't agree, leave it out. - FrancisTyers · 17:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC) As far as i know because i come from Bitola,it is the 2nd biggest city in Macedonia.
In the article about them it says that they were born in the village of Avdela. Shouldn't they be removed from here or does this Notable people from Bitola mean people that have lived there? -- Laveol 10:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot 05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Image:GRB201.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that if pictures were put on both sides of the page, not just on the right, the article may be more pleasing to the eye. Spencer 19:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:MKD muni flag(Bitola).png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 13:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The title has Greek:Monastiri, i was wondering what sources there are that have Greek as the second most spoken langauge in Bitola? Last time i checked Roma were 3,46%, albanians at 2.36%, turks - 2.1%, Aromanians- 1,34%, Serbs - .66%, Bosnians - 0,002% and others at 0,67% or 497 people. Where are the greek speakers? PMK1 ( talk) 06:13, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, it was introduced "per Florina" so OTHERCRAPEXISTS can work both ways here. As I have always said, regardless of the supposed strength (or sanity) of the arguments, names in other languages in the lead cause the arguments, and so they should go. Balkan Fever 11:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Nice one. They still speak 'local Hellenic' in Bitola and some of the surrounding villages, but the 'local Hellenic' speakers call it Ellinika (Greek). But so what. Politis ( talk) 16:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I entered again the Greek name of the city, which IMO is necessary for obvious reasons (and it is difficult indeed for me to understand the reaction of certain users, such as Balkan Fever). Whether we like it or not, Greek history is related to this city, where the Greeks and Byzantines flourished for centuries; this is also the case for the spreading of the Greek language. After all it is the article itself which states that until 1911 the Greek element was dominant in the region. So erasing the Greek name from the lead is historical blindness!
There are also other similar examples, such as Smyrna, where, although there are very very few Greeks in the city, the Greek name is there. And how could it be different?! We speak about more than 2,000 years of Greek influence in the area. And the same stands for a series of other now-Greek or now-Turkish cities (see Alexandroupoli etc.). And don't tell me "raise the issue there, do not bother us here." Because all these examples indicate a certain practice, which should be taken into account.
After all, just make a quick serfing in google book to see how often the term "Monastir" appears. And even here in Wikipedia we have a Monastir dis article! So, are we going to pretend that all these things just do not exist?! And conceal a part of the city's history? Because that is exactly what the Greek name expresses. A part of the city's rich historical past.
In any case, if those disagreeing with me want more third-party input, this is no problem of course. I support an open invitation to any third-party editors are interested in to express their views.-- Yannismarou ( talk) 17:09, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a question of frequency of usage, international exposure. The city is clearly referred to as Monastiri until well after WWI, and rarely as Bitola - just look at the postcards, despaches, references. Its fame and fortune was built under the name Monastiri. Likewise for Istanbul, Alexandroupoli, Izmir. So the Monastiri reference should be up there next to Bitola. However, Florina had almost zero exposure as Lerin - just look at the maps; also the Lerin appelation already exists in the paragraph below. Any other choice for those two cities is, in my opinion, political (if not irredentist motivated). Politis ( talk) 17:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The Turkish case is different. Turkey markets its former-Hellenic cities under their Hellenic names - just look at their official brochures (admitedly, it does not recognise them as Greek, but as Helleno-Roman, Roman, Ionian, Lydian, etc). This, they believe, enhances their European credentials and, as our Turkish friends know, there is no overt or covert attempt by Greek rhetoric to appropriate those cities via their name. Also, in the west, those cities have a long history of being referred to by their ancient name. Politis ( talk) 17:39, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
This section needs a quick spelling/grammar clean up: "Children from differend countries such as EU,Russia,Ukrain,Serbia,Croatia,BiH and Macedonia participate on this event which is usually consisted of 18-22 songs. This festival is supported by the association of culture "ProMedia" from Bitola which organized this event under a different topic every year.The only award at this festival is for interpretation." Menrunningpast ( talk) 00:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Could someone take a look at the statement and reference above ( link). It is unclear where Mr. Room got his information. I believe a more reliable source is probably in order. Aramgar ( talk) 17:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
BalkanFever: your edit stated, "whats the point of having three variants of the same name if they're not in english? especially since they are better treated in the etymolgoy section". I might call on your services in other articles to back me up. I leave your edit as it stands. Just one point, do the Albanian Macedonians call it Manastir? Politis ( talk) 09:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I think that Hristijan Spirovski and Nikolce Noveski should be removed from "People from Bitola". Dimitar Ilievski - Murato and Georgi Hristov are more remarkable than the other two, or at least you should add them in the main list in Bitola page, if there is no limit of how many names should be in the main list —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiderwebmkd ( talk • contribs) 18:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
90.216.5.170 ( talk) 23:09, 20 February 2010 (UTC)stramota kade e tuka durlovski najdobriot makedonski operski pejac,pa i toj e bitolcanec neli?
Isto Mile - Kuburot da ne go zaborajte da go spomnite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.247.13.225 ( talk) 14:22, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Latest revision as of 17:46, 5 January 2012 (edit) (undo) Athenean (talk | contribs) (edith durham is not a reliable source)
According to Athenean, Edith Durham is not a reliable source when she says that there were Orthodox Albanians living in Bitola, but strangely in the same article you can find Edith Durham, but this one seems reliable to Athenean:
A former dragoman who witnessed the Balkan Wars noted in January 1914 that "hardly a year has elapsed since Monastir fell into Servian hands, and this very short period has been enough to turn it into a desert city."[12]
^ Durham, M.Edith. Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, p255
I will undo the change of Athenean, because it seems that it just directed towards Albanians.
( Edvin ( talk) 18:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC))
The name Manastir was in use in Ottoman times. The Macedonian Alphabet is in use after 1944, i.e. it is impossible the name to was written in Macedonian during Ottoman times. Jingiby ( talk) 19:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Leasten, you Americans: Stop converting the facts about Slavish poulation in this region, in contrary we could ask from Russia to solve the problem!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.75.118 ( talk) 14:46, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
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Medieval history of the region is one of the least documented periods of its history. There are no direct or indirect sources of Clement's and Naum's activity in the area, and including them only by the virtue of Ohrid being geographically close to Bitola is not adequate. The medieval monasteries were mentioned twice. Repetitive use of the title "of Bulgaria" is clearly tendentious, as those figures are not known as "of Bulgaria" in any historiography, including the Bulgarian one (as a the matter of fact the articles on corresponding Wikipedia are never named as such, and there is no need of that whenever the article title is a unique name, especially in the case of Gavrilo Radomir). Throughout the whole article no other rulers are name "of [state]", which is right and in accordance with general and Wikipedias principles. I see no other reasons, except a suspicious non-NPOV motives for accentuating only one state when referring to medieval rulers.-- strich3D ( talk) 23:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I recently changed a segment of the Ottoman schools to specify that they had taught in the specific languages yet had my edit reverted and told that it is not an improvement. May I get an explanation for this, User:Jingiby ? Okrados ( talk) 03:23, 21 May 2021 (UTC)