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Bexleyheath has a position within both London and Kent. Both are important for any understanding of the town today. I am not taking sides in the debate about counties, the ABC can do that, but it cannot be disputed that Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent, a fact that has a significant bearing on the town and population today. This alone justifies reference to Kent at the start of the article and does not contradict any WP policies. The awkward situation regarding what is and is not a county is an unfortunate result of ambiguity developed over time. It means there is no simple one line description of where Bexleyheath, or numerous other towns, actually are. Better to spell it out in several statements rather than choose one and exclude the others. Doing the latter would be doing a dis-service to the intent of wikipedia. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Similar but not the same and certainly not exactly the same. The main difference that those other places closer in have no living inhabitants who remember having a practical every day link to Kent. But, despite that Woolwich and the others are in the Historic County of Kent and links still exist, weaker though they are the links between Bexleyheath and Kent. For that reason alone mention should be made of he Kent links in the articles about Woolwich and many other places closer in to London. Sadly this rarely happens. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia itself calls historic counties 'former counties'. They no longer exist. To say a place is in a county that doesn't exist is inaccurate and misleading. The fact the historic counties pushers don't tryta claim other areas of London that were previously in Kent shows they have no conviction in their own beliefs. It's simply a backdoor way of saying somewhere they personally view as Kent should be called Kent. It's things like this that give Wikipedia a bad name and cause people to distrust the information within. Riteinit ( talk) 14:27, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Southlondoneye I can see what you are trying to do both here with Bexleyheath and elsewhere, but you are IMO on a hiding to nothing. You cannot standardise the whole of London in this way because London is not a standardised entity. One of the latest way of catagorising London might be to create different 'districts' but that is simply a administrative exercise. Bexleyheath, the subject of this article, is a town, not a district. It gives its name to the district you refer to but does not change its status as a town. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 11:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Southlondoneye I refer to your edit and comment today. The London plan does not dictate what is or is not a town, or a village or a hamlet. It has merely created 35 areas of Greater London to help promote the greater good of London. One of those areas happens to be called Bexleyheath, presumably because the powers that be deemed Bexleyheath to be the most significant town in that area, a custom followed with most of the other 34 areas. Bexleyheath, the subject of this article is not the Bexleyheath you are referring to. If you think the Bexleyheath of the Greater London Plan warrants an article of its own then why not start one up? Alternatively, why not insert reference to the GLP district of Bexleyheath somewhere lower down. There is an obvious link between the two Bexleyheaths, even though they are not the same. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Over the next couple of weeks I'm going to try to rationalise the lists of notable residents of Bexley towns. Each one currently has a long and unsourced lists of people who might have gone to school there, may anecdotally have been seen in the area, may be from a neighbouring town etc. (see Sidcup for example). Also, many people were born in, say, Bexleyheath but grew up in, say, Welling. Meanwhile the article List of people from Bexley is woefully underpopulated. So I'm going to try to migrate most of the lists to there as a central list (with fully explanation of their local connection and history etc), add them to the articles about their secondary schools if the sources back that up, and only leave people on the list in articles about the specific towns if the source clearly states that they lived in that place. (see current list at Bexleyheath for an example). This should make the info more reliable, easier to check, and easier to understand. Any comments, objections, suggestions? Jdcooper ( talk) 13:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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This comment applies to articles about the other nearby places and the edit wars that have just started -November 2017. This problem runs deeper and affects the whole of WP's treatment of the UK. Some facts would help. In context here 'Kent' refers to the historic county, not the ceremonial county. 'London' refers to the ceremonial county, whose correct name is Greater London. They are different things so there is no need to argue that a place is in one county so it cannot be in the other. WP policy is to refer to the ceremonial county as where a place 'is'. It is also WP policy, if relevant, to refer a place's historic county in the lead. For places in Bexley this is certainly relevant. The word 'historic' relates to the past (eg what has made Kent what it is today) but not necessarily to something that has ended (Canterbury Cathedral is an historic building). The word is unfortunate and some people choose to use 'traditional' instead, such as the government. There is no evidence that the HC of Kent has ever been abolished. It has lost its administrative role but that is all. The way local govt has developed and changed over time has been less than straightforward and one ambiguity has fed of another and we have ended up with the confusion we currently have. WP's approach seems to be reasonably well intended but it is not as clearly laid out as, in my opinion, it should be. This has caused the muddle that has developed in Bexley and in most other articles about UK counties. Perhaps we should all attempt to have WP policy and guidelines clarified rather than constantly edit warring. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
OK, in my opinion this dispute has now gone too far. When it implied that an editor attempting to make good-faith improvements, is in instead editing disruptively, there is a problem. There is clearly a POV dispute around the status of historic counties, between those who think the historical counties are current entities, and those who hold some other viewpoint.
This was my attempt at presenting the pertinent fact in a neutral fashion. I believe that statement is both true regardless of the "true" present-day status of the historical county and that it makes no assertion about its current status.
Roger 8 Roger reverted that in a way that clearly matches his POV on the truth of the matter. I'd also point out using a source in the manner he is doing is contrary to WP procedures, especially when there is no mention of Bexleyheath - as far as I can tell he's inserted it solely to justify the "is".
I'd like to see this saga closed off soon. Its already in WP:LAME territory for splitting hairs over "is" or "was". It shouldn't be necessary to resort to a straw-poll here, as a NPOV approach is perfectly reasonable here.
Pinging Acaptial, Blue Square Thing, ClemRutter, Ghmyrtle, Mr Stephen Rodw and Warofdreams who have been involved in similar discussions recently.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 15:42, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, historic counties are also known as former counties. Former, not present. From that alone it should be obvious that historic counties shouldn't be used as a present day geographic reference. As their name suggests, historic counties are a historical reference. Riteinit ( talk) 00:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I thought my deletion might be disputed. I saw that comment you quote from the DM reference about his 'return home to Bexleyheath' but chose to disregard it. This was because 1/ There was no elaboration: he could have been renting a place for a couple of months or staying with a friend, which doesn't really count as being a local resident b/ I had a quick look elsewhere and could not find any other references to his living in Bexleyheath c/ I too am a little concerned about not believing anything the DM publishes, but the WP guide/consensus that I linked to is pretty clear that the DM is unreliable and in nearly all cases should not be used as a reliable source. To me that means that the claim that he is a resident is uncited and can therefore be removed, especially as I looked elsewhere for another citation and could not find one. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 00:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikiproject London Guidelines nowhere should be described as “Greater” only “London”. People have recently been making a mockery of the Wikiproject and I for one shall not stand for it. I just wanted to make that clear here. Justgravy ( talk) 16:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I am opening a discussion here about having the historic county in the lead of an article. Roger 8 Roger suggests there is a guideline about it, but all I can really find that is concrete (i.e. not in a small nutshell which says to be cautious about doing it) are discussions which generally oppose what they are trying to do:
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(places)/Archive_1 Justgravy ( talk) 14:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Historic counties don't exist. They're from history, as in of the past, as in no longer in existence. Winston Churchill is a historic Prime Minister. Is he Prime Minister now? No. All this nonsense is simply an attempt to turn the clock back by people who wanna live in the past. Basically, it's very wrong coz it's inaccurate and misleading. No one in Bexleyheath pays tax to Kent or votes in Kent elections, why, coz they don't live in Kent, they live in London. Riteinit ( talk) 14:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
As far as I know, Royal Mail has now allowed HCs to be used in addresses. RM might not be using the HCs to arrange its address system (that is now based on postcodes), but importantly it accepts that use of the HC is not incorrect. An implication of this is that it is an example of the use of HCs as extant entities in society. It is also interesting that many people choose, correctly as confirmed by RM, to use Kent in their address rather than just a postcode. JG, I think you refer to the 1996 Royal Mail address changes. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 18:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Why is this page still locked down?
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Historical_county. MRSC ( talk) 06:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
As per the link above, we do not say, in wikivoice, that a place remains within a historic county in present tense. Bexleyheath is not in Kent. Historical counties are historical, and this is the guideline per WP:UKCOUNTIES and WP:UKTOWNS. I have removed the reinsertion of: Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent. This text is not complaint with the guidelines. It is also, incidentally, unsourced. It is certainly true that Bexleyheath was in Kent, although the sentence on its own is then a little random. I would support text that describes its history, explaining that it was in Kent until the creation of Greater London. This would preferably be a fuller history than just that sentence. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Editors must be mindful of fostering and/or introducing anachronism into former county articles. Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries.Your edit,
The area was part of the historic county of Kent until the creation of Greater London in 1965is entirely in line with the guidelines and good information, albeit unsourced (like much of the page at present). It is not contentious though. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 17:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
still exist with the former boundariesor not. I ask that you refrain from bulk-editing your preferred wording into Greater London articles whilst discussion continues. PlatinumClipper96 ( talk) 17:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I have left the places of worship section asis for now, although added a source. I am not sure what to do with this though. Bexleyheath has some notable churches that are no longer extant (a grand congregational church for instance, and one of the first Elim Pentecostal assemblies) but this is just a current list, which is fine as that is similar to the schools list. But then, it is only churches, so what about other places of worship for other faiths? Should there be inclusion criteria for the list? Such as the existence of a wikipedia page? Or should the list stress architecture. Would be interested in the thoughts of other editors on this. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:12, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
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Please add that Kate Bush was born in Bexleyheath. Dayaaa ( talk) 13:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
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Bexleyheath has a position within both London and Kent. Both are important for any understanding of the town today. I am not taking sides in the debate about counties, the ABC can do that, but it cannot be disputed that Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent, a fact that has a significant bearing on the town and population today. This alone justifies reference to Kent at the start of the article and does not contradict any WP policies. The awkward situation regarding what is and is not a county is an unfortunate result of ambiguity developed over time. It means there is no simple one line description of where Bexleyheath, or numerous other towns, actually are. Better to spell it out in several statements rather than choose one and exclude the others. Doing the latter would be doing a dis-service to the intent of wikipedia. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Similar but not the same and certainly not exactly the same. The main difference that those other places closer in have no living inhabitants who remember having a practical every day link to Kent. But, despite that Woolwich and the others are in the Historic County of Kent and links still exist, weaker though they are the links between Bexleyheath and Kent. For that reason alone mention should be made of he Kent links in the articles about Woolwich and many other places closer in to London. Sadly this rarely happens. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia itself calls historic counties 'former counties'. They no longer exist. To say a place is in a county that doesn't exist is inaccurate and misleading. The fact the historic counties pushers don't tryta claim other areas of London that were previously in Kent shows they have no conviction in their own beliefs. It's simply a backdoor way of saying somewhere they personally view as Kent should be called Kent. It's things like this that give Wikipedia a bad name and cause people to distrust the information within. Riteinit ( talk) 14:27, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
@ Southlondoneye I can see what you are trying to do both here with Bexleyheath and elsewhere, but you are IMO on a hiding to nothing. You cannot standardise the whole of London in this way because London is not a standardised entity. One of the latest way of catagorising London might be to create different 'districts' but that is simply a administrative exercise. Bexleyheath, the subject of this article, is a town, not a district. It gives its name to the district you refer to but does not change its status as a town. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 11:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Southlondoneye I refer to your edit and comment today. The London plan does not dictate what is or is not a town, or a village or a hamlet. It has merely created 35 areas of Greater London to help promote the greater good of London. One of those areas happens to be called Bexleyheath, presumably because the powers that be deemed Bexleyheath to be the most significant town in that area, a custom followed with most of the other 34 areas. Bexleyheath, the subject of this article is not the Bexleyheath you are referring to. If you think the Bexleyheath of the Greater London Plan warrants an article of its own then why not start one up? Alternatively, why not insert reference to the GLP district of Bexleyheath somewhere lower down. There is an obvious link between the two Bexleyheaths, even though they are not the same. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 09:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
Over the next couple of weeks I'm going to try to rationalise the lists of notable residents of Bexley towns. Each one currently has a long and unsourced lists of people who might have gone to school there, may anecdotally have been seen in the area, may be from a neighbouring town etc. (see Sidcup for example). Also, many people were born in, say, Bexleyheath but grew up in, say, Welling. Meanwhile the article List of people from Bexley is woefully underpopulated. So I'm going to try to migrate most of the lists to there as a central list (with fully explanation of their local connection and history etc), add them to the articles about their secondary schools if the sources back that up, and only leave people on the list in articles about the specific towns if the source clearly states that they lived in that place. (see current list at Bexleyheath for an example). This should make the info more reliable, easier to check, and easier to understand. Any comments, objections, suggestions? Jdcooper ( talk) 13:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
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This comment applies to articles about the other nearby places and the edit wars that have just started -November 2017. This problem runs deeper and affects the whole of WP's treatment of the UK. Some facts would help. In context here 'Kent' refers to the historic county, not the ceremonial county. 'London' refers to the ceremonial county, whose correct name is Greater London. They are different things so there is no need to argue that a place is in one county so it cannot be in the other. WP policy is to refer to the ceremonial county as where a place 'is'. It is also WP policy, if relevant, to refer a place's historic county in the lead. For places in Bexley this is certainly relevant. The word 'historic' relates to the past (eg what has made Kent what it is today) but not necessarily to something that has ended (Canterbury Cathedral is an historic building). The word is unfortunate and some people choose to use 'traditional' instead, such as the government. There is no evidence that the HC of Kent has ever been abolished. It has lost its administrative role but that is all. The way local govt has developed and changed over time has been less than straightforward and one ambiguity has fed of another and we have ended up with the confusion we currently have. WP's approach seems to be reasonably well intended but it is not as clearly laid out as, in my opinion, it should be. This has caused the muddle that has developed in Bexley and in most other articles about UK counties. Perhaps we should all attempt to have WP policy and guidelines clarified rather than constantly edit warring. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 07:39, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
OK, in my opinion this dispute has now gone too far. When it implied that an editor attempting to make good-faith improvements, is in instead editing disruptively, there is a problem. There is clearly a POV dispute around the status of historic counties, between those who think the historical counties are current entities, and those who hold some other viewpoint.
This was my attempt at presenting the pertinent fact in a neutral fashion. I believe that statement is both true regardless of the "true" present-day status of the historical county and that it makes no assertion about its current status.
Roger 8 Roger reverted that in a way that clearly matches his POV on the truth of the matter. I'd also point out using a source in the manner he is doing is contrary to WP procedures, especially when there is no mention of Bexleyheath - as far as I can tell he's inserted it solely to justify the "is".
I'd like to see this saga closed off soon. Its already in WP:LAME territory for splitting hairs over "is" or "was". It shouldn't be necessary to resort to a straw-poll here, as a NPOV approach is perfectly reasonable here.
Pinging Acaptial, Blue Square Thing, ClemRutter, Ghmyrtle, Mr Stephen Rodw and Warofdreams who have been involved in similar discussions recently.-- Nilf anion ( talk) 15:42, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, historic counties are also known as former counties. Former, not present. From that alone it should be obvious that historic counties shouldn't be used as a present day geographic reference. As their name suggests, historic counties are a historical reference. Riteinit ( talk) 00:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I thought my deletion might be disputed. I saw that comment you quote from the DM reference about his 'return home to Bexleyheath' but chose to disregard it. This was because 1/ There was no elaboration: he could have been renting a place for a couple of months or staying with a friend, which doesn't really count as being a local resident b/ I had a quick look elsewhere and could not find any other references to his living in Bexleyheath c/ I too am a little concerned about not believing anything the DM publishes, but the WP guide/consensus that I linked to is pretty clear that the DM is unreliable and in nearly all cases should not be used as a reliable source. To me that means that the claim that he is a resident is uncited and can therefore be removed, especially as I looked elsewhere for another citation and could not find one. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 00:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikiproject London Guidelines nowhere should be described as “Greater” only “London”. People have recently been making a mockery of the Wikiproject and I for one shall not stand for it. I just wanted to make that clear here. Justgravy ( talk) 16:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I am opening a discussion here about having the historic county in the lead of an article. Roger 8 Roger suggests there is a guideline about it, but all I can really find that is concrete (i.e. not in a small nutshell which says to be cautious about doing it) are discussions which generally oppose what they are trying to do:
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(places)/Archive_1 Justgravy ( talk) 14:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Historic counties don't exist. They're from history, as in of the past, as in no longer in existence. Winston Churchill is a historic Prime Minister. Is he Prime Minister now? No. All this nonsense is simply an attempt to turn the clock back by people who wanna live in the past. Basically, it's very wrong coz it's inaccurate and misleading. No one in Bexleyheath pays tax to Kent or votes in Kent elections, why, coz they don't live in Kent, they live in London. Riteinit ( talk) 14:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
As far as I know, Royal Mail has now allowed HCs to be used in addresses. RM might not be using the HCs to arrange its address system (that is now based on postcodes), but importantly it accepts that use of the HC is not incorrect. An implication of this is that it is an example of the use of HCs as extant entities in society. It is also interesting that many people choose, correctly as confirmed by RM, to use Kent in their address rather than just a postcode. JG, I think you refer to the 1996 Royal Mail address changes. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 18:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Why is this page still locked down?
See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Historical_county. MRSC ( talk) 06:04, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
As per the link above, we do not say, in wikivoice, that a place remains within a historic county in present tense. Bexleyheath is not in Kent. Historical counties are historical, and this is the guideline per WP:UKCOUNTIES and WP:UKTOWNS. I have removed the reinsertion of: Bexleyheath is in the historic county of Kent. This text is not complaint with the guidelines. It is also, incidentally, unsourced. It is certainly true that Bexleyheath was in Kent, although the sentence on its own is then a little random. I would support text that describes its history, explaining that it was in Kent until the creation of Greater London. This would preferably be a fuller history than just that sentence. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 09:08, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Editors must be mindful of fostering and/or introducing anachronism into former county articles. Use language that asserts past tense - We do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries.Your edit,
The area was part of the historic county of Kent until the creation of Greater London in 1965is entirely in line with the guidelines and good information, albeit unsourced (like much of the page at present). It is not contentious though. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 17:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
still exist with the former boundariesor not. I ask that you refrain from bulk-editing your preferred wording into Greater London articles whilst discussion continues. PlatinumClipper96 ( talk) 17:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
I have left the places of worship section asis for now, although added a source. I am not sure what to do with this though. Bexleyheath has some notable churches that are no longer extant (a grand congregational church for instance, and one of the first Elim Pentecostal assemblies) but this is just a current list, which is fine as that is similar to the schools list. But then, it is only churches, so what about other places of worship for other faiths? Should there be inclusion criteria for the list? Such as the existence of a wikipedia page? Or should the list stress architecture. Would be interested in the thoughts of other editors on this. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 20:12, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add that Kate Bush was born in Bexleyheath. Dayaaa ( talk) 13:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)