This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Someone without a Wikipedia account wrote this:
The miraculous spring of Bernadette no longer flows, and water is being piped in from the municipal water supplies.
I have written to the Lourdes Bureau to ask about this and get verification, and meanwhile put it here. While I am aware that work was done on the rock from which Bernadette's spring flows back in the mid- to late 80s, this was done to help the spring flow more freely and was very much in the spirit of the masons and millers, including Bernadette's dad, who worked on the original guttering and catchbasin for the water as it came up from the hole she dug, as (she said) at her Lady's request. -- Bluejay Young 01:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC
Dear Barbara, I reverted your changes because it is not useful to delete a whole paragraph. The paragraph of the exhumation is very useful. I made a few changes in order to secure the neutral viewpoint. If you want to make more changes please discuss them first. --
Benedikt
10:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Barbara Shack 12:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)I left the article as follows:-
==Bernadette's body exhumed==
Her body was first exhumed on September 2 1909, in the presence of representatives appointed by the postulators of the cause, two doctors, and a sister of the community. Although the crucifix in her hand and the rosary had both oxidized, her body was found to be "incorrupt" — preserved from decomposition. This was one of the miracles cited for support of her canonization. Her body was washed and reclothed before burial in a new double casket.
The corpse was exhumed a second time on April 3 1919. The body was found to be still preserved. There was slight discoloration of the face which has been explained as being due to the washing process of the first exhumation.
In 1925, relics were taken from her body and a wax mask was applied to the face and the remains were then placed in a gold and glass reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the motherhouse in Nevers. The site is visited by many pilgrims.
She received Beatification in 1925 and Canonization in 1933 under Pope Pius XI, not so much for the content of her visions, but rather for her simplicity and holiness of life. She is the patron saint of sick persons and of Lourdes. In the section headed, "Bernadette's early life" I wrote, " She was intelligent enough to understand rural skills, like how to look after sheep." Benedikt deleted that. Why? Why does he want people to think Bernadette was less intelligent than she was? I've reinserted the comment.
===Natural explanations for the preservation of a Dead Body===
Corpses, which appear not to decay may have been preserved artificially or embalmed.
Burial in lime-impregnated alkali soil can also preserve a corpse through Saponification of fat and soft tissue. Burial in anoxic acid, wet conditions can tan a dead body as with the famous bog bodies.
If a corpse is repeatedly dug up, examined and conserved this can also lead to apparent miraculous preservation. Wax masks may be used to conceal the poor condition of a corpse. [1]"
This was neutral. It stated the case for alleged supernatural preservation and also the case against it. Now only the case for supernatural preservation is stated. This is biased.
Barbara Shack 12:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)In the section headed, "Bernadette's early life" I wrote, " She was intelligent enough to understand rural skills, like how to look after sheep." Benedikt deleted that. Why? Why does he want people to think Bernadette was less intelligent than she was? I've reinserted the comment. If Benedikt deletes that again this will provide further evidence that he wants to be biased.
Barbara Shack 13:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)I have already written a section of an article about the preservation of dead bodies. I have linked to that article. I hope that is acceptable to you.
Barbara Shack 14:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)Earlier you wrote, "Barbara, you are always free to write an article about body preservation and link it from this article." I keep linking to a section of an article dealing with preservation of dead bodies. You keep deleting it, Benedikt . This is inconsistent and Hypocrisy. You've been in trouble for edit wars before.
I am very sad that you think of war. For me this is about truth and not about war. -- Benedikt 16:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC) BTW: The dispute about heteronormativity was not an edit war but a discussion. AlexR didn't like my corrections because they affected him personally. As you can see in the history my changes were accepted partially (although of course not every part - and now the article is a mess again) -- Benedikt 16:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Barbara, you just included another link to the miracle's page. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links).
I really doubt that it conforms to the guidelines when we link to the miracles article four times. I understand that you are unhappy that such unbelievable (for you, not for me ;-)) facts stand uncorrected in the article. But I don't like the idea of having a link to the miracles page after each paragraph. How should we solve this problem? What about that: After the first paragraph we put in a clause that the dispute about the miracles in Lourdes is dealt with in the other article. Then we can imo delete all the other links to that article. What do you think? -- Benedikt 16:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC) Barbara Shack 15:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)I note Benedict wrote, "This was not a wax mask but spraying of wax. Maybe it could be noted that Bernadette's body is now totally dry. When "knocking" on her body it sounds like carton.)" Wax can be molded after it is sprayed.
At the top of the page it says the Catholic Church confirms this apparition and other religions dispute it. Would it be better to say something like "This article is exclusively related to the Catholic Church. It does not pertain to other religions"? Also, why does the Catholic Church confirm it if other religions doubt it? The facts should be obvious in themselves and not be related to one's religion because an event either occured or did not. We here at Wikipedia are supposed to find what DID occur. JBogdan 18:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is riddled, probably by subsequent editors, with ridiculous attempts to denigrate the subject. Such, for instance, as the goofy and irrelevent suggestion that Bernadette's incorrupt body might have been interpreted as a sign of vampirism in other cultures. Ridiculous and totally irrelevent to the topic. The article has been rendered uselsss as a reference because of these invasions. I suggest instead reference be made to the following:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/BERNADET.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stbernadette/ -- RC
Please contact the Vatican if you have found any ways that the incorruptibility of Bernadette Soubirous or her immunity to the burning candle could have been contrived so they can have her case reexamined properly--that is their job and they need to know if these "miracles" were faked. Please contact the Lourdes Medical Bureau if you have information on how certain ailments could be "cured" when it was only done by natural means, or how it could be faked. This call for assistance applies especially to medical professionals.
Thank you for recognizing my work needed improvement and taking action on it, Barbara. We here at Wikipedia are supposed to do that. Unfortunately, you did not do the appropriate research. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, please do your homework and contact the appropriate agencies to report the possible falsehood of Lourdes so Bernadette Soubirous can be removed from the list of saints, and so Lourdes can be removed from the list of approved apparitions. JBogdan 00:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Someone without a Wikipedia account wrote this:
The miraculous spring of Bernadette no longer flows, and water is being piped in from the municipal water supplies.
I have written to the Lourdes Bureau to ask about this and get verification, and meanwhile put it here. While I am aware that work was done on the rock from which Bernadette's spring flows back in the mid- to late 80s, this was done to help the spring flow more freely and was very much in the spirit of the masons and millers, including Bernadette's dad, who worked on the original guttering and catchbasin for the water as it came up from the hole she dug, as (she said) at her Lady's request. -- Bluejay Young 01:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC
Dear Barbara, I reverted your changes because it is not useful to delete a whole paragraph. The paragraph of the exhumation is very useful. I made a few changes in order to secure the neutral viewpoint. If you want to make more changes please discuss them first. --
Benedikt
10:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Barbara Shack 12:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)I left the article as follows:-
==Bernadette's body exhumed==
Her body was first exhumed on September 2 1909, in the presence of representatives appointed by the postulators of the cause, two doctors, and a sister of the community. Although the crucifix in her hand and the rosary had both oxidized, her body was found to be "incorrupt" — preserved from decomposition. This was one of the miracles cited for support of her canonization. Her body was washed and reclothed before burial in a new double casket.
The corpse was exhumed a second time on April 3 1919. The body was found to be still preserved. There was slight discoloration of the face which has been explained as being due to the washing process of the first exhumation.
In 1925, relics were taken from her body and a wax mask was applied to the face and the remains were then placed in a gold and glass reliquary in the Chapel of Saint Bernadette at the motherhouse in Nevers. The site is visited by many pilgrims.
She received Beatification in 1925 and Canonization in 1933 under Pope Pius XI, not so much for the content of her visions, but rather for her simplicity and holiness of life. She is the patron saint of sick persons and of Lourdes. In the section headed, "Bernadette's early life" I wrote, " She was intelligent enough to understand rural skills, like how to look after sheep." Benedikt deleted that. Why? Why does he want people to think Bernadette was less intelligent than she was? I've reinserted the comment.
===Natural explanations for the preservation of a Dead Body===
Corpses, which appear not to decay may have been preserved artificially or embalmed.
Burial in lime-impregnated alkali soil can also preserve a corpse through Saponification of fat and soft tissue. Burial in anoxic acid, wet conditions can tan a dead body as with the famous bog bodies.
If a corpse is repeatedly dug up, examined and conserved this can also lead to apparent miraculous preservation. Wax masks may be used to conceal the poor condition of a corpse. [1]"
This was neutral. It stated the case for alleged supernatural preservation and also the case against it. Now only the case for supernatural preservation is stated. This is biased.
Barbara Shack 12:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)In the section headed, "Bernadette's early life" I wrote, " She was intelligent enough to understand rural skills, like how to look after sheep." Benedikt deleted that. Why? Why does he want people to think Bernadette was less intelligent than she was? I've reinserted the comment. If Benedikt deletes that again this will provide further evidence that he wants to be biased.
Barbara Shack 13:16, 20 February 2006 (UTC)I have already written a section of an article about the preservation of dead bodies. I have linked to that article. I hope that is acceptable to you.
Barbara Shack 14:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)Earlier you wrote, "Barbara, you are always free to write an article about body preservation and link it from this article." I keep linking to a section of an article dealing with preservation of dead bodies. You keep deleting it, Benedikt . This is inconsistent and Hypocrisy. You've been in trouble for edit wars before.
I am very sad that you think of war. For me this is about truth and not about war. -- Benedikt 16:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC) BTW: The dispute about heteronormativity was not an edit war but a discussion. AlexR didn't like my corrections because they affected him personally. As you can see in the history my changes were accepted partially (although of course not every part - and now the article is a mess again) -- Benedikt 16:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Barbara, you just included another link to the miracle's page. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links).
I really doubt that it conforms to the guidelines when we link to the miracles article four times. I understand that you are unhappy that such unbelievable (for you, not for me ;-)) facts stand uncorrected in the article. But I don't like the idea of having a link to the miracles page after each paragraph. How should we solve this problem? What about that: After the first paragraph we put in a clause that the dispute about the miracles in Lourdes is dealt with in the other article. Then we can imo delete all the other links to that article. What do you think? -- Benedikt 16:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC) Barbara Shack 15:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)I note Benedict wrote, "This was not a wax mask but spraying of wax. Maybe it could be noted that Bernadette's body is now totally dry. When "knocking" on her body it sounds like carton.)" Wax can be molded after it is sprayed.
At the top of the page it says the Catholic Church confirms this apparition and other religions dispute it. Would it be better to say something like "This article is exclusively related to the Catholic Church. It does not pertain to other religions"? Also, why does the Catholic Church confirm it if other religions doubt it? The facts should be obvious in themselves and not be related to one's religion because an event either occured or did not. We here at Wikipedia are supposed to find what DID occur. JBogdan 18:50, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
This article is riddled, probably by subsequent editors, with ridiculous attempts to denigrate the subject. Such, for instance, as the goofy and irrelevent suggestion that Bernadette's incorrupt body might have been interpreted as a sign of vampirism in other cultures. Ridiculous and totally irrelevent to the topic. The article has been rendered uselsss as a reference because of these invasions. I suggest instead reference be made to the following:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/BERNADET.htm http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stbernadette/ -- RC
Please contact the Vatican if you have found any ways that the incorruptibility of Bernadette Soubirous or her immunity to the burning candle could have been contrived so they can have her case reexamined properly--that is their job and they need to know if these "miracles" were faked. Please contact the Lourdes Medical Bureau if you have information on how certain ailments could be "cured" when it was only done by natural means, or how it could be faked. This call for assistance applies especially to medical professionals.
Thank you for recognizing my work needed improvement and taking action on it, Barbara. We here at Wikipedia are supposed to do that. Unfortunately, you did not do the appropriate research. If you are sincerely seeking the truth, please do your homework and contact the appropriate agencies to report the possible falsehood of Lourdes so Bernadette Soubirous can be removed from the list of saints, and so Lourdes can be removed from the list of approved apparitions. JBogdan 00:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)