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The DDR's claim was that the building of the wall was not to keep people from leaving East Berlin. However ridiculous this claim may be, it should be acknowledged for the sake of NPOV. -- user:Daniel C. Boyer
it's true...camel cigarette billboards were up before the first big mac was sold on the other side...the bananas were flying (mick , who was there...)Is this appropriate for smokers who are going to get Camels, big macs, and/or flying bananas?Please add if you agree w/me[tiggerhop]
Surely it wasn't built entirely on August 13th? What happened that day -- checkpoints activated? or what? Catherinei dont understand![tiggerhop]
1955 is less insane than 1855 but still wrong, being 6 years before the construction of the wall... Morwen 18:40, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the prevailing view in this article (that the wall was built to prevent people going from east to west), however some of these sentences are too POV, like "It was clear from the beginning that this justification served as a cover for the fact that the citizens of East Germany had to be prevented from entering West Berlin and thereby West Germany (East Germany did not completely control traffic between West Berlin and the rest of West Germany)." I really don't have to be told it's clear one side is correct or another is, I think a reasonable person can just be handed the facts and interpret them themselves, we don't need interpretation in Wikipedia as well. I would tend to interpret it as said, but it doesn't belong.
On another point, most analysis I've seen of the migration, be it non-communist left or US intelligence analysis noted that the majority of people coming over were educated professionals and that this was the real problem. East Germany could well afford to have 2.5 million people leave the country from 1949 to 1961, East Germany could not afford that number when they were mostly professionals - electricians, doctors, scientists and the like. This is an important point and was not mentioned in the article, I added it. Nakosomo 05:06, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This part (under the "Aftermath and implications" section of "The Fall" doesn't seem to be related to the article: "In 1990 the U.S. Congress failed to pass the defense budget forcing many government defense contracting companies to lay off thousands of workers." Does anyone know what this means? —This unsigned comment was added by 130.215.168.251 ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
There is a section repeated from the Secondary Response section in the main title section. While the Berlin Wall was important as a symbol, the passage in the first section should be pared down or removed, as it isn't directly revelant to specifically what the wall was.---
David C: June 12, 2007:
There is a sentence that is worded awkwardly, and misleads the reader to believe the Beer Hall Putsch was also in 1938, along with Kristallnacht.
The original is currently:
However, November 9 is also the anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch and the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of 1938 and, therefore, October 3 was chosen instead.
I would propose:
However, November 9 was already the anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923, and the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of 1938. October 3 was chosen instead.
-- David C.
"After a misunderstanding, Günter Schabowski announced in a press conference..." .....Please give details on what the misunderstanding was! I really am intrigued. Kingturtle 03:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
My memories of the 9.11.1989 are as follows. The anouncement of Günter Schabowski (east german politician) that all travel restrictions for citizens of the DDR are lifted was made on a press conference. I heard it on the radio, and it sounded as even the news reader could not believe it. It would be great to have an audio sample of these radio news here. It was a Thursday evening, during the night Berliners tested the announcement and were able to get intot the west. Border guards were confused I was told, they did not know about the new policies, but they were afraid to oppose the masses of people who demanded to cross the border into West Berlin. On my way to work on Friday I could see a number of Trabant cars milling around in West Berlin, people from East Berlin coming over for a visit to the west. Saturday was complete chaos, Hundredthousands of citizens from East Berlin came for various reasons... Shopping, seeing family members... in the street where I lived I met somebody who was looking for the place he used to work before 1961, a roofer workshop, it was highly emotional.
For propaganda reasons visitors from the east could claim 20 DMark (west money) every time they were able to visit the west. Of course this was soon abolished after 1989. Before it was mostly pensioners with family ties to the west who were allowed to travel to West Berlin. (By the way, in East Germany, the official spelling for the west of the city was Westberlin. And East Berlin was 'Berlin, Hauptstadt der DDR'.) This payment was called 'Begrüßungsgeld' or 'welcome money'. It was paid by the banks on behalf of the government and you had to show your DDR passport or ID card as proof of identity I think. On the way to do my Saturday shopping I came past an enormous queue outside of a bank near my flat, east german visitors claiming their 'Begrüßungsgeld'. (This was the Berliner Bank at Hallesches Tor, I lived in Obentrautstrasse, and usually did my shopping in the upstairs supermarket in the 'Hertie am Halleschen Ufer'. This shop also was packed with people, trying to buy something from the 20DM they had. I could probably go on and on with my personal memories, and I have to write them down some time. I am always very moved thinking back to these days in Berlin.
Why was the East German state named the"German Democratic Republic" if it was a communist state? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Logicalempiricist ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The missunderstanding refers to the date of opening the borders, Schabowski said in that press conference "from now on", but he did'nt knew exactly and it wasnt pointed in his papers. The only Video/Audio i found in english is this one: NBC-Reporter Tom Brakow about the Press conference of Schabowski Nickname3000 ( talk) 13:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I was told that there was an even larger wall on the whole thousand-kilometer border between the two Germanies. Should there be a mention of it here, or even a page for that ?
Yes. Fences, watchtowers and minefields. These days that area is a nature refuge, because humans hardly interfered there for 50 years. Except for some towns directly at the border, the whole border regions were underdeveloped too
There should be a page for that, if it doesnt exist yet. The border was strongly guarded between the BRD (Federal Republic of Germany) and the DDR (German Democratic Republic).
Given the recent poll data we are reporting on people now wishing we again had two Germany's instead of one, could someone find & photograph one of those "Geben Sie mir zurück mein Mauer" T-shirts ("Give me back my wall", I may not have the German quite right) which I remember seeing circa 1996? It would make a good illustration next to that passage. "I love Germany so much, I'm glad there are two of them" -- Francois Mauriac -- Jmabel 20:34, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
There's a woman in Sweden who is, or so she claims, married to the Berlin Wall ("sexiest and best wall ever!"). Should this get a mention? DS 18:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed it should, as it shows how terribly great an effect the Berlin Wall had in global issues.
Check out the website. The political dynamic of the wall has nothing to do with this woman's obsession. She is clearly very disturbed and has an obsession with prefabricated walls, fences, etc., which are of a certain shape and dimensions. Maybe it's a hoax, but if not-- man, that's one weird chick. ---TexxasFinn
"However, because November 9 is also the anniversary of the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of October 3, 1938 was chosen instead"
This sentence does not make grammatical sense but I cannot change it because I don't know what it means. -- Feitclub 00:52, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
I've reworded to fix this. The problem was that the underlying wikitext was "because... [of] the infamous [[Kristallnacht]] pogroms of [[1938]], [[October 3]] was chosen instead." The wiki tried to get too smart and reinterpreted "[[1938]], [[October 3]]", which it thought was a single date, into your preferred date style. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:53, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
While it might not have enough importance to be mentioned, I personally think that there should be something about the famous photo showing West Berliners destroying the Wall, [1]. Also, if the person shown there were to be identified, it could also help a lot. Kaiser Matias 19:45 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The following text contains a stale external link which I removed from the article. It would be good to find an alternative which still works.
Done, and story updated. It was only a temporary installation. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:54, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
It says two different lengths in the article. One at around 50km (which sounds the most plausible to me) and one at around 150km. 212.242.144.172 00:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
According to "Mao, the untold story" by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday it was Mao Zedong who suggested to Ulbricht that building a wall would be a good idea. Maybe this should be mentioned, I don't know if this is stated in any other source. 8472 09:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I just want to ask if anyone knows whether the Berlin Wall lowered the nearby land value. I suppose the answer is yes, but I would like more information before editing the article about this.-- Jusjih 04:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Did the Tiananmen Square Protests in China between April-June of 1989 have any impact on the fall of the Berlin Wall? It was a widely coveraged event. 128.135.60.87 05:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
2/3 of the articles are the same. Either one of them needs some info trimmed out of it or they should simply be merged. Vicarious 21:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
If any article should have the material torn out of it it should be the GDR border article. The Berlin Wall is a symbol of the separation of East/West Germany and deserves its own lengthy article. Thecolemanation 07:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This is much more than a mere "housekeeping" suggestion. Most English speakers would never think of trying to find information about the Berlin wall under "GDR" and "border". If any article should be altered or removed, it should be the "GDR border" one.
Against merge. These are different things, which both deserve an article. Since they are closely related, the Berlin wall being a part of the GDR border system, it would be good to stress this connection though. LARS 13:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Against merge. As someone new to this topic I have found the two articles relatively independent and, in my view, the best way to present the information. As already discussed the two "barriers" have quite different histories and both deserve their own pages. I do think, however, that the GDR border article needs to be updated with facts stated in this article. Feenix( talk • email) 14:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody! I shortened and refined the lines: "East German residents wishing to leave the GDR, even merely for a vacation on socialist territory, often faced tough controls and long waits for exit visas. Meanwhile, residents of other East European Communist nations flocked to the GDR for trade and leisure when possible, as it was the most prosperous country of the Soviet bloc."
In this context the second part of the statement lacks meaningful information and suggest that other Eastern block residents had easier passage through the Polish-GDR, Czechoslovak-GDR borders. In fact the harsh contol was applied on all ordenary travellers regardless country origin.
The judment on GDR as being the most prosperious country of the Soviet block raises questions. It either needs some objective figures or it should be deleted. Generaly I beleive "prosperity" is not an appropriate term to use to describe any of the former Eastern block countries. Perhaps "relatively prosperious" would be more accurate, but this above mentioned context can live without it.-- Kukorelli 23:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed two images. I removed Image: Conrad Schumann.jpg because it has no source information and no reasonable claim to fair use. It also didn't make a significant addition to this article. I removed Image:Stamp-ctc-fall-of-the-berlin-wall.jpg because it was uploaded for the purpose of identification (of the stamp) and is not fair use for any other purpose, see its page for more details. Vicarious 03:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Are there more entry points or gates besides Checkpoint Charley along the length of the wall? -- Dogears 05:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC) see also: Border checkpoint (forwarded from Checkpoint)
Interesting site, with some great images that would be fantastic in this article - can't figure out the copyright status though. Any takers? [3] Kaisershatner 14:42, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
It was still possible to leave East Germany after the construction of the Wall. I think this should be mentioned somewhere in the article because the only clue to this was in the opening paragraph (which was misleading and I corrected) and later when it states that "a few" people who were too old to work were allowed through. It sounds like some old codgers hobbled over to the Wall and the guards took pity and let them through... whereas in reality there was an official process. In fact, in order to comply with United Nations directives on freedom of movement, the GDR had an official application form for leaving the country. This was of course just for show because the answer was almost always 'Nein', unless they wanted you to go - like if you were an unproductive member of society: retired or just too much trouble. I don't have the official figures at hand but I know that 10s of 1000s left annualy. In 1983 11,000 left and that was the lowest amount in any given year, with highs of around 40,000.
Then there are also the political prisoners that were sold by the East to the West. 'Compensation' was the communist spin of the day. West Germany took prisoners off their hands, set them free and made them into West Germans. There was an old joke in the East that if the communists were running out of money there would be a whole load of arrests. I actually met someone who got himself deliberately arrested in order to be sent to the West, successfully.
As it stands the article gives the impression that absolutely no one could cross into the West at all but in fact 100s of 1000s did so. It was the illegal emigration that was a problem - not the government sanctioned emigration. Per1892 20:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Severe vandalism has happened here. The article may require temporary protection. Any available administrator should consider this while I cannot do so (not an admin here).-- Jusjih 14:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Removed page vandalism.... 83.100.203.43 08:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Of the fall (people taking the wall appart, etc.) would be most appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I remember a video image of a bicyclist riding across the top of the wall during news coverage of the event; I think the American TV network NBC eventually used it as part of the title in their special reports at the time. It wouldn't necessarily make the article better if someone found and added a picture of this, but it is a motif that has stuck in my memory, and perhaps others would appreciate seeing it as well. B7T 23:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Describing the barrier as having "effectively decreased illegal emigration" in the first paragraph is misleading and perhaps a poor choice of words. The word emigration alone would suffice in my opinion. Illegal emigration is wrong. Even it were GDR policy to limit travel to western countries, the people in the GDR were mostly born with a common German citizenship and the GDR right to limit their travel in the country of their was never recognized by most countries in the world. "Illegal emigration" is too reminiscint of "illegal immigration", an issue with a completely different legal and social background in common use. I would suggest it be changed to simply "emigration" (without illegal) or something that better explains the situation, such as "effectively decreased emigration, which was restricted by the East German regime.-- 62.245.143.34 08:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} Please add date 1962 to caption of Peter Fechter photo. Also please add statement of why page is protected. 80.229.160.150 19:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The section Portion of Wall at Westminster College seems to me to be rather long proportional to its importance, and a bit magazine-ish. Does anyone have a problem with the idea of editing this down to the basics? We can move the bulk of this to the article on the college, if it is not already there. - Jmabel | Talk 20:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Kukorelli 15:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Minor change: from "While East Germany became the richest" to "While East Germany became —one of— the richest", I think it is more objective.
I agree with Jambel. I think that the Westminster College section is completely out of place in this article and ALL of it should be moved to the main Westminster College article. It is over long and of little interest to anyone except former students of the college and perhaps distant relations of Winston Churchill.
The introductory paragraph should quickly explain what the subject matter is, not dive into social characteristics or historic gobbeldygook.
"The Berlin Wall was a combination of fence and concrete barrier surrounding the city of Berlin during the Cold War. Built in ... by the government of East Germany, which surrounded Berlin, it was intended to stop East Germans from fleeing the communist country by way of the city. It was dismantled in ... [etc]"
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 20:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The Good Article review on this article has ended, with a 5 to 1 vote to delist. Primarily references were the concern, as much of the article doesn't appear to explicitly be referenced. I'll give you this, it does seem like some more inline citations have been added, but it doesn't appear to of been an amazingly substantial change. However, if i'm wrong about this and you feel strongly enough about it, feel free to list the article up for review again. Dispute archived at Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 8. Homestarmy 20:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added a wise citation by mr.Suvorov, summarising the political importance and meaning of this construction. The original is:
13 августа 1961 года Берлин был разрезан пополам бетонной стеной. Назначение стены: удержать жителей Восточной социалистической Германии от бегства в нормальный мир.
Стена постоянно совершенствовалась и укреплялась, превращаясь из стены в систему непреодолимых инженерных заграждений с ловушками, сложнейшей системой сигнализации, с бетонными огневыми точками, наблюдательными вышками, противотанковыми тетраэдрами и ежами, с хитроумными автоматами-самострелами, которые убивали беглецов даже без участия пограничников.
Но чем больше труда, изобретательности, денег, бетона и стали коммунисты вкладывали в дальнейшее развитие стены, тем яснее становилось: удержать людей в коммунистическом обществе можно только неприступными заграждениями, колючей проволокой, собаками, стрельбой в спину. Стена означала: система, которую построили коммунисты, не привлекает никого. Она отталкивает - http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov7/07.html Суворов, Виктор Тень победы. Constanz - Talk 11:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
In the main text, it's stated that the "no man's land" was mined and booby-trapped. But I don't recall reports of people getting blown up during the 1989 celebrations. So when were they de-mined? When one of the subsequent walls was constructed? Or did people avoid the areas they knew to be mined and de-mining happened afterwards? Calbaer 20:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The museum at Checkpoint Charlie features an automaic spring gun they claim is from the wall, are they lying?
The quote from Suvorov is overtly POV, calling the anti-communist block "the normal world" etc.. It adds nothing and should be removed. -- 194.145.161.226 17:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean atomic weapons? I thought pentatomic meant that the brigade was split into 5 battle groups.-- 80.47.95.10 16:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
You are quite right. I have corrected the text.
When I tried the link it did not work. Don't have time to fix it at the moment. Can anyone help? THobern 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be working now. 89.243.222.72 22:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Wall was chipped away at by a euphoric public and souvenir hunters over the next several weeks, it was later removed using industrial equipment and its so called "fall" prepared the way for Nationalist tendencies which gained acendency in East Germany towards the end of 1989 following extravagant promises of "blooming landscapes" and "economic wonders" the East German voters were convinced of the need for German reunification, which was formally concluded on October 3, 1990." Is this a real sentence? It needs serious revision.
==
Did this wall prevent travel from East Berlin to West Berlin or did it promote it? Could people travel from East Berlin to West Berlin before this wall was built. I can't understand if its building was to cut off travel or to increase it. And did they destroy it to be able to tralvel? 75.75.115.151 01:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Taroga
Currently the article has a pair of photos as seen here. If you click on the bottom photo you will see a claim that it was taken at Checkpoint Charlie, not the Glienicker Brücke. Is there some reason to disbelieve this? 207.176.159.90 22:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that we should have a seperate article for the fall of the Berlin Wall, seeing as it's one of the most important events in the history of the 20th century? In fact, I think it's shocking that we don't have one already. -- The monkeyhate 13:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
There isn't anything mentioned here about how the Americans and Russians almost went to war over the wall- after the wall was put up US diplomats continued to cross the wall to check conditions. They were then denied entry by Soviet tanks. American tanks responded by facing them. Both were fully armed. There was a 30-hour stalemate before the tanks retreated one by one. Has no-one else heard about this? User:Reagar
This phrasing is ambiguous because it can be misinterpreted. It would be better to substitute more precise month names here. -- B.d.mills 10:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Checkpoint Charlie Sign.jpg needs to be removed, as it is no longer on wikipedia due to copyright violation.
Coolest-tech 17:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see anything in this article about the opening up of the checkpoints in 1989 and the subsequent tearing down of the wall. Shouldn't such an important even get it's own categorized section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanshin ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth anyones interest that the game world in conflict special edition is going to come with a section of wall inside the box? or is this just pointless triva or better suited on the world in conflict page?.-- Kerotan Talk Have a nice day :) 06:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The intro reads:
During this period 125 people were killed trying to escape to the West, according to official figures.[1] However, a prominent victims' group claims that at least 1,245 people had been killed trying to flee East Germany.[2]
I don't think the second sentence belongs. The first sentence is a claim of how many people died at the Wall. The second reports a claim of how many died total trying to flee E Germany, and they certainly weren't all in Berlin. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 03:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The DDR's claim was that the building of the wall was not to keep people from leaving East Berlin. However ridiculous this claim may be, it should be acknowledged for the sake of NPOV. -- user:Daniel C. Boyer
it's true...camel cigarette billboards were up before the first big mac was sold on the other side...the bananas were flying (mick , who was there...)Is this appropriate for smokers who are going to get Camels, big macs, and/or flying bananas?Please add if you agree w/me[tiggerhop]
Surely it wasn't built entirely on August 13th? What happened that day -- checkpoints activated? or what? Catherinei dont understand![tiggerhop]
1955 is less insane than 1855 but still wrong, being 6 years before the construction of the wall... Morwen 18:40, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I tend to agree with the prevailing view in this article (that the wall was built to prevent people going from east to west), however some of these sentences are too POV, like "It was clear from the beginning that this justification served as a cover for the fact that the citizens of East Germany had to be prevented from entering West Berlin and thereby West Germany (East Germany did not completely control traffic between West Berlin and the rest of West Germany)." I really don't have to be told it's clear one side is correct or another is, I think a reasonable person can just be handed the facts and interpret them themselves, we don't need interpretation in Wikipedia as well. I would tend to interpret it as said, but it doesn't belong.
On another point, most analysis I've seen of the migration, be it non-communist left or US intelligence analysis noted that the majority of people coming over were educated professionals and that this was the real problem. East Germany could well afford to have 2.5 million people leave the country from 1949 to 1961, East Germany could not afford that number when they were mostly professionals - electricians, doctors, scientists and the like. This is an important point and was not mentioned in the article, I added it. Nakosomo 05:06, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This part (under the "Aftermath and implications" section of "The Fall" doesn't seem to be related to the article: "In 1990 the U.S. Congress failed to pass the defense budget forcing many government defense contracting companies to lay off thousands of workers." Does anyone know what this means? —This unsigned comment was added by 130.215.168.251 ( talk • contribs) 19 March 2006.
There is a section repeated from the Secondary Response section in the main title section. While the Berlin Wall was important as a symbol, the passage in the first section should be pared down or removed, as it isn't directly revelant to specifically what the wall was.---
David C: June 12, 2007:
There is a sentence that is worded awkwardly, and misleads the reader to believe the Beer Hall Putsch was also in 1938, along with Kristallnacht.
The original is currently:
However, November 9 is also the anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch and the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of 1938 and, therefore, October 3 was chosen instead.
I would propose:
However, November 9 was already the anniversary of the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923, and the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of 1938. October 3 was chosen instead.
-- David C.
"After a misunderstanding, Günter Schabowski announced in a press conference..." .....Please give details on what the misunderstanding was! I really am intrigued. Kingturtle 03:59, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
My memories of the 9.11.1989 are as follows. The anouncement of Günter Schabowski (east german politician) that all travel restrictions for citizens of the DDR are lifted was made on a press conference. I heard it on the radio, and it sounded as even the news reader could not believe it. It would be great to have an audio sample of these radio news here. It was a Thursday evening, during the night Berliners tested the announcement and were able to get intot the west. Border guards were confused I was told, they did not know about the new policies, but they were afraid to oppose the masses of people who demanded to cross the border into West Berlin. On my way to work on Friday I could see a number of Trabant cars milling around in West Berlin, people from East Berlin coming over for a visit to the west. Saturday was complete chaos, Hundredthousands of citizens from East Berlin came for various reasons... Shopping, seeing family members... in the street where I lived I met somebody who was looking for the place he used to work before 1961, a roofer workshop, it was highly emotional.
For propaganda reasons visitors from the east could claim 20 DMark (west money) every time they were able to visit the west. Of course this was soon abolished after 1989. Before it was mostly pensioners with family ties to the west who were allowed to travel to West Berlin. (By the way, in East Germany, the official spelling for the west of the city was Westberlin. And East Berlin was 'Berlin, Hauptstadt der DDR'.) This payment was called 'Begrüßungsgeld' or 'welcome money'. It was paid by the banks on behalf of the government and you had to show your DDR passport or ID card as proof of identity I think. On the way to do my Saturday shopping I came past an enormous queue outside of a bank near my flat, east german visitors claiming their 'Begrüßungsgeld'. (This was the Berliner Bank at Hallesches Tor, I lived in Obentrautstrasse, and usually did my shopping in the upstairs supermarket in the 'Hertie am Halleschen Ufer'. This shop also was packed with people, trying to buy something from the 20DM they had. I could probably go on and on with my personal memories, and I have to write them down some time. I am always very moved thinking back to these days in Berlin.
Why was the East German state named the"German Democratic Republic" if it was a communist state? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Logicalempiricist ( talk • contribs) 07:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The missunderstanding refers to the date of opening the borders, Schabowski said in that press conference "from now on", but he did'nt knew exactly and it wasnt pointed in his papers. The only Video/Audio i found in english is this one: NBC-Reporter Tom Brakow about the Press conference of Schabowski Nickname3000 ( talk) 13:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
I was told that there was an even larger wall on the whole thousand-kilometer border between the two Germanies. Should there be a mention of it here, or even a page for that ?
Yes. Fences, watchtowers and minefields. These days that area is a nature refuge, because humans hardly interfered there for 50 years. Except for some towns directly at the border, the whole border regions were underdeveloped too
There should be a page for that, if it doesnt exist yet. The border was strongly guarded between the BRD (Federal Republic of Germany) and the DDR (German Democratic Republic).
Given the recent poll data we are reporting on people now wishing we again had two Germany's instead of one, could someone find & photograph one of those "Geben Sie mir zurück mein Mauer" T-shirts ("Give me back my wall", I may not have the German quite right) which I remember seeing circa 1996? It would make a good illustration next to that passage. "I love Germany so much, I'm glad there are two of them" -- Francois Mauriac -- Jmabel 20:34, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)
There's a woman in Sweden who is, or so she claims, married to the Berlin Wall ("sexiest and best wall ever!"). Should this get a mention? DS 18:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Indeed it should, as it shows how terribly great an effect the Berlin Wall had in global issues.
Check out the website. The political dynamic of the wall has nothing to do with this woman's obsession. She is clearly very disturbed and has an obsession with prefabricated walls, fences, etc., which are of a certain shape and dimensions. Maybe it's a hoax, but if not-- man, that's one weird chick. ---TexxasFinn
"However, because November 9 is also the anniversary of the infamous Kristallnacht pogroms of October 3, 1938 was chosen instead"
This sentence does not make grammatical sense but I cannot change it because I don't know what it means. -- Feitclub 00:52, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
I've reworded to fix this. The problem was that the underlying wikitext was "because... [of] the infamous [[Kristallnacht]] pogroms of [[1938]], [[October 3]] was chosen instead." The wiki tried to get too smart and reinterpreted "[[1938]], [[October 3]]", which it thought was a single date, into your preferred date style. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:53, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
While it might not have enough importance to be mentioned, I personally think that there should be something about the famous photo showing West Berliners destroying the Wall, [1]. Also, if the person shown there were to be identified, it could also help a lot. Kaiser Matias 19:45 13 August 2005 (UTC)
The following text contains a stale external link which I removed from the article. It would be good to find an alternative which still works.
Done, and story updated. It was only a temporary installation. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:54, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
It says two different lengths in the article. One at around 50km (which sounds the most plausible to me) and one at around 150km. 212.242.144.172 00:01, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
According to "Mao, the untold story" by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday it was Mao Zedong who suggested to Ulbricht that building a wall would be a good idea. Maybe this should be mentioned, I don't know if this is stated in any other source. 8472 09:15, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I just want to ask if anyone knows whether the Berlin Wall lowered the nearby land value. I suppose the answer is yes, but I would like more information before editing the article about this.-- Jusjih 04:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Did the Tiananmen Square Protests in China between April-June of 1989 have any impact on the fall of the Berlin Wall? It was a widely coveraged event. 128.135.60.87 05:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
2/3 of the articles are the same. Either one of them needs some info trimmed out of it or they should simply be merged. Vicarious 21:12, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
If any article should have the material torn out of it it should be the GDR border article. The Berlin Wall is a symbol of the separation of East/West Germany and deserves its own lengthy article. Thecolemanation 07:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This is much more than a mere "housekeeping" suggestion. Most English speakers would never think of trying to find information about the Berlin wall under "GDR" and "border". If any article should be altered or removed, it should be the "GDR border" one.
Against merge. These are different things, which both deserve an article. Since they are closely related, the Berlin wall being a part of the GDR border system, it would be good to stress this connection though. LARS 13:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Against merge. As someone new to this topic I have found the two articles relatively independent and, in my view, the best way to present the information. As already discussed the two "barriers" have quite different histories and both deserve their own pages. I do think, however, that the GDR border article needs to be updated with facts stated in this article. Feenix( talk • email) 14:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody! I shortened and refined the lines: "East German residents wishing to leave the GDR, even merely for a vacation on socialist territory, often faced tough controls and long waits for exit visas. Meanwhile, residents of other East European Communist nations flocked to the GDR for trade and leisure when possible, as it was the most prosperous country of the Soviet bloc."
In this context the second part of the statement lacks meaningful information and suggest that other Eastern block residents had easier passage through the Polish-GDR, Czechoslovak-GDR borders. In fact the harsh contol was applied on all ordenary travellers regardless country origin.
The judment on GDR as being the most prosperious country of the Soviet block raises questions. It either needs some objective figures or it should be deleted. Generaly I beleive "prosperity" is not an appropriate term to use to describe any of the former Eastern block countries. Perhaps "relatively prosperious" would be more accurate, but this above mentioned context can live without it.-- Kukorelli 23:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed two images. I removed Image: Conrad Schumann.jpg because it has no source information and no reasonable claim to fair use. It also didn't make a significant addition to this article. I removed Image:Stamp-ctc-fall-of-the-berlin-wall.jpg because it was uploaded for the purpose of identification (of the stamp) and is not fair use for any other purpose, see its page for more details. Vicarious 03:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Are there more entry points or gates besides Checkpoint Charley along the length of the wall? -- Dogears 05:12, 23 February 2006 (UTC) see also: Border checkpoint (forwarded from Checkpoint)
Interesting site, with some great images that would be fantastic in this article - can't figure out the copyright status though. Any takers? [3] Kaisershatner 14:42, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
It was still possible to leave East Germany after the construction of the Wall. I think this should be mentioned somewhere in the article because the only clue to this was in the opening paragraph (which was misleading and I corrected) and later when it states that "a few" people who were too old to work were allowed through. It sounds like some old codgers hobbled over to the Wall and the guards took pity and let them through... whereas in reality there was an official process. In fact, in order to comply with United Nations directives on freedom of movement, the GDR had an official application form for leaving the country. This was of course just for show because the answer was almost always 'Nein', unless they wanted you to go - like if you were an unproductive member of society: retired or just too much trouble. I don't have the official figures at hand but I know that 10s of 1000s left annualy. In 1983 11,000 left and that was the lowest amount in any given year, with highs of around 40,000.
Then there are also the political prisoners that were sold by the East to the West. 'Compensation' was the communist spin of the day. West Germany took prisoners off their hands, set them free and made them into West Germans. There was an old joke in the East that if the communists were running out of money there would be a whole load of arrests. I actually met someone who got himself deliberately arrested in order to be sent to the West, successfully.
As it stands the article gives the impression that absolutely no one could cross into the West at all but in fact 100s of 1000s did so. It was the illegal emigration that was a problem - not the government sanctioned emigration. Per1892 20:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Severe vandalism has happened here. The article may require temporary protection. Any available administrator should consider this while I cannot do so (not an admin here).-- Jusjih 14:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Removed page vandalism.... 83.100.203.43 08:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Of the fall (people taking the wall appart, etc.) would be most appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
I remember a video image of a bicyclist riding across the top of the wall during news coverage of the event; I think the American TV network NBC eventually used it as part of the title in their special reports at the time. It wouldn't necessarily make the article better if someone found and added a picture of this, but it is a motif that has stuck in my memory, and perhaps others would appreciate seeing it as well. B7T 23:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Describing the barrier as having "effectively decreased illegal emigration" in the first paragraph is misleading and perhaps a poor choice of words. The word emigration alone would suffice in my opinion. Illegal emigration is wrong. Even it were GDR policy to limit travel to western countries, the people in the GDR were mostly born with a common German citizenship and the GDR right to limit their travel in the country of their was never recognized by most countries in the world. "Illegal emigration" is too reminiscint of "illegal immigration", an issue with a completely different legal and social background in common use. I would suggest it be changed to simply "emigration" (without illegal) or something that better explains the situation, such as "effectively decreased emigration, which was restricted by the East German regime.-- 62.245.143.34 08:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} Please add date 1962 to caption of Peter Fechter photo. Also please add statement of why page is protected. 80.229.160.150 19:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
The section Portion of Wall at Westminster College seems to me to be rather long proportional to its importance, and a bit magazine-ish. Does anyone have a problem with the idea of editing this down to the basics? We can move the bulk of this to the article on the college, if it is not already there. - Jmabel | Talk 20:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
-- Kukorelli 15:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)Minor change: from "While East Germany became the richest" to "While East Germany became —one of— the richest", I think it is more objective.
I agree with Jambel. I think that the Westminster College section is completely out of place in this article and ALL of it should be moved to the main Westminster College article. It is over long and of little interest to anyone except former students of the college and perhaps distant relations of Winston Churchill.
The introductory paragraph should quickly explain what the subject matter is, not dive into social characteristics or historic gobbeldygook.
"The Berlin Wall was a combination of fence and concrete barrier surrounding the city of Berlin during the Cold War. Built in ... by the government of East Germany, which surrounded Berlin, it was intended to stop East Germans from fleeing the communist country by way of the city. It was dismantled in ... [etc]"
- Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 20:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The Good Article review on this article has ended, with a 5 to 1 vote to delist. Primarily references were the concern, as much of the article doesn't appear to explicitly be referenced. I'll give you this, it does seem like some more inline citations have been added, but it doesn't appear to of been an amazingly substantial change. However, if i'm wrong about this and you feel strongly enough about it, feel free to list the article up for review again. Dispute archived at Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 8. Homestarmy 20:21, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added a wise citation by mr.Suvorov, summarising the political importance and meaning of this construction. The original is:
13 августа 1961 года Берлин был разрезан пополам бетонной стеной. Назначение стены: удержать жителей Восточной социалистической Германии от бегства в нормальный мир.
Стена постоянно совершенствовалась и укреплялась, превращаясь из стены в систему непреодолимых инженерных заграждений с ловушками, сложнейшей системой сигнализации, с бетонными огневыми точками, наблюдательными вышками, противотанковыми тетраэдрами и ежами, с хитроумными автоматами-самострелами, которые убивали беглецов даже без участия пограничников.
Но чем больше труда, изобретательности, денег, бетона и стали коммунисты вкладывали в дальнейшее развитие стены, тем яснее становилось: удержать людей в коммунистическом обществе можно только неприступными заграждениями, колючей проволокой, собаками, стрельбой в спину. Стена означала: система, которую построили коммунисты, не привлекает никого. Она отталкивает - http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov7/07.html Суворов, Виктор Тень победы. Constanz - Talk 11:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
In the main text, it's stated that the "no man's land" was mined and booby-trapped. But I don't recall reports of people getting blown up during the 1989 celebrations. So when were they de-mined? When one of the subsequent walls was constructed? Or did people avoid the areas they knew to be mined and de-mining happened afterwards? Calbaer 20:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The museum at Checkpoint Charlie features an automaic spring gun they claim is from the wall, are they lying?
The quote from Suvorov is overtly POV, calling the anti-communist block "the normal world" etc.. It adds nothing and should be removed. -- 194.145.161.226 17:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Does this mean atomic weapons? I thought pentatomic meant that the brigade was split into 5 battle groups.-- 80.47.95.10 16:55, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
You are quite right. I have corrected the text.
When I tried the link it did not work. Don't have time to fix it at the moment. Can anyone help? THobern 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be working now. 89.243.222.72 22:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Wall was chipped away at by a euphoric public and souvenir hunters over the next several weeks, it was later removed using industrial equipment and its so called "fall" prepared the way for Nationalist tendencies which gained acendency in East Germany towards the end of 1989 following extravagant promises of "blooming landscapes" and "economic wonders" the East German voters were convinced of the need for German reunification, which was formally concluded on October 3, 1990." Is this a real sentence? It needs serious revision.
==
Did this wall prevent travel from East Berlin to West Berlin or did it promote it? Could people travel from East Berlin to West Berlin before this wall was built. I can't understand if its building was to cut off travel or to increase it. And did they destroy it to be able to tralvel? 75.75.115.151 01:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)Taroga
Currently the article has a pair of photos as seen here. If you click on the bottom photo you will see a claim that it was taken at Checkpoint Charlie, not the Glienicker Brücke. Is there some reason to disbelieve this? 207.176.159.90 22:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think that we should have a seperate article for the fall of the Berlin Wall, seeing as it's one of the most important events in the history of the 20th century? In fact, I think it's shocking that we don't have one already. -- The monkeyhate 13:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
There isn't anything mentioned here about how the Americans and Russians almost went to war over the wall- after the wall was put up US diplomats continued to cross the wall to check conditions. They were then denied entry by Soviet tanks. American tanks responded by facing them. Both were fully armed. There was a 30-hour stalemate before the tanks retreated one by one. Has no-one else heard about this? User:Reagar
This phrasing is ambiguous because it can be misinterpreted. It would be better to substitute more precise month names here. -- B.d.mills 10:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Image:Checkpoint Charlie Sign.jpg needs to be removed, as it is no longer on wikipedia due to copyright violation.
Coolest-tech 17:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't see anything in this article about the opening up of the checkpoints in 1989 and the subsequent tearing down of the wall. Shouldn't such an important even get it's own categorized section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zanshin ( talk • contribs) 16:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Is it worth anyones interest that the game world in conflict special edition is going to come with a section of wall inside the box? or is this just pointless triva or better suited on the world in conflict page?.-- Kerotan Talk Have a nice day :) 06:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The intro reads:
During this period 125 people were killed trying to escape to the West, according to official figures.[1] However, a prominent victims' group claims that at least 1,245 people had been killed trying to flee East Germany.[2]
I don't think the second sentence belongs. The first sentence is a claim of how many people died at the Wall. The second reports a claim of how many died total trying to flee E Germany, and they certainly weren't all in Berlin. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 03:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
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