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Okay, the V1 of this page is finally there. It can and should be improved: To do:
So I put the article in Wikipedia anyway, especially since it's a little more than a stub anyway, even as of now ... ^_^ Grafikm_fr 00:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello, at the section "Western bank operations" the Picture caption is "The German Heer delivers fire across the Dnieper.". Heer links to the present German Army (Heer). The present german army was (according to the wikipedia article) established in 1955, i think it should be linked to the Wehrmacht article, also the Description links to Wehrmacht (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitlerdnieper.jpg). If this is acceppted, maybe someone can change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.64.67 ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive AB#NPOV vs "mainstream".
This article has been fully protected for about seven weeks, extremely long for wikipedia standards. No progress has been made in the discussion for the last two weeks. Are the parties moving toward mediation or some other form of dispute resolution? If not, then I will formally request unprotection. Calwatch 23:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
A have already proposed to request mediation concerning the use of the word "liberate", but very few people agreed to participate. With the hope that people change their opinion and are ready to resolve the dispute according to WP:DR instead of by removing the tag and edding warring, I propose the mediation once more. Please add your username below, if you are agree to participate.-- AndriyK 07:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tag. It is not a legal way to resolve disputes.-- AndriyK 08:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the dreadful Liberation word. Those who care are looking for the possibilities to work on the articles, those to care to stop works are putting tags. abakharev 12:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that Alex labeled the event as the Recovering of Kiev in the body of the article. Why was this wording removed from the intro and replaced with "liberated"? Is this an honest attempt at reconciliation?-- tufkaa 17:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I reestablished Battle of Kiev as Alex put it, too. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
A while back I made a rather extensive edit, [2] that was reverted at first but I believe Grafik ended up saying he would integrate it with some more sources ( see here). I would like to see this happen now that the article is unprotected. Also, I still feel strongly that the article should be redirected to Battle of the Dnieper, as we discussed extensively. heqs 03:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, time for the move redirect then. Hopefully the pointless liberate revert wars are over. I will take care of it later today if no one else does. Cheers,
heqs
14:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, an admin will have to move it, because the redirect at Battle of the Dnieper already exists ( Mzajac created it just a few hours ago - strange timing!) . Any admins around, or should I file a Requested Move? We should move rather than copy+paste to save edit history, right? heqs 14:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to protect the article again. It is really a shame that such a fine article should be a subject of the revert war due to such a minor matter. Please find a compromise on the talk page. As for me all the variants are acceptable including the total exclusion of the dreadful L word abakharev 21:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I filed a Mediation Cabal file to see if consensus can be reached with people able to do so... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I've offered to mediate this. I have some knowledge of the battle but no POV on it at all. I take it this is a matter of semantics regarding the status of people/places after troop movements.
Contact me via the mediation pahe or my talk page. Art.
Arthur Ellis
01:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
{{RFMF}}
As the article has been protected for weeks and the mediation request was rejected and there seems to be no ongoing discussion, I'm unprotecting this article. -- Tony Sidaway 22:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Could we not use "East" and "West" to describe river banks such as that of the Dnieper rather than "left" and "right"? "Left" and "right" depend entirely on which way the observer is facing. If one was at the Dnieper facing upstream (North) the left bank would be the west bank and the right bank would be the east bank, but if facing downstream (South) then they would be reversed. I'm sure there are conventions for this sort of thing but I'm sure not everyone is aware of them and perhaps they are not universal so I think it would be better to be unambiguous and use "East" and "West" rather than "Left" and "Right". Booshank 02:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Aside from a lack of footnotes in the article, I'm a bit disturbed by the statement that Germany lost their 'best' men at Stalingrad. This is POV and unprovable. Did they keep statistics or have report cards? There's no way to compare or justify this statement so I've removed it. Michael Dorosh Talk 19:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's worthless as far as German casualties go. If they are estimated by your "rule of thumb" method described in the lower section of the article, I strongly suggest to remove them altogether because that is a very, very vague technique and highly unlikely given the numbers. Compare 1.25 million Germans total force employef to 1.25 million highest estimate of casualties... that'd mean every German died, got wounded or taken prisoner. Completely unrealistic.
The number of Soviet KIA seems far too high, and it isnt even mentioned in the aftermath section. 72.196.193.123 ( talk) 05:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
The lead states "the casualties are estimated at being from 1,700,000 to 2,700,000 on both sides.". Isn't that the total number of casualties? I think this can be read as meaning 4-5 million casualties. -- Mortense ( talk) 11:04, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The article mixes the two spellings, i.e. "Battle of Kiev" link. In English, the common spelling is Kiev, not Kyiv. The English Wiki should reflect this, should it not? I'll wait for feedback before changing it. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 17:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Kyiv is the spelling preferred by the Government of Ukraine, and is being used more frequently in English now. However, Kiev was the spelling used in English at the time of the battle, so it looks anachronistic to use the modern spelling. I would go with Kiev for this article, and Kyiv for articles about modern Ukraine. Ground Zero | t 21:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 19:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Lower Dnieper Offensive → Battle of the Dnieper – This article should be moved to its proper name and retitled the Battle of the Dnieper. The reasons are WP:COMMONNAME and factual accuracy.
Per WP:COMMONNAME: There are over 10 thousand Google Books results for "Battle of the Dnieper" [3]. There are another 5 thousand for "Battle for the Dnieper" [4]. Meanwhile, excluding paper copies of Wikipedia that come up in the search engine, there are fewer than 10 results for "Lower Dnieper Offensive" [5] (perhaps inspired by Wikipedia).
For accuracy: The old title of this article was Battle of the Dnieper; in February 2008 User:Mrg3105 unilaterally moved it to Lower Dnepr strategic offensive operation [6] with edit summary "Correct translation/usage of the operation name and geographic description". Afterward, it was moved here. The original rationale for the move was completely incorrect. In fact, the Russian name of what the article describes is "Battle of the Dnieper" and the Interwiki for every article about this battle is the equivalent of "Battle of the Dnieper" (August - December 1943). The Lower Dnieper Operation is "Нижнеднепровская операция" -- this only formed a part of the battle (late September - December 1943). Zloyvolsheb ( talk) 05:43, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
From the lead:
Is that fitting for such an article? -- Mortense ( talk) 12:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
The entire article is garbage. Beyond just being unreadable, it offers no coherent narrative of the operations covered. It also has terrible problems with perspective. Its way too soviet-centric and depends almost exclusively on soviet sources. 12.12.144.130 ( talk) 19:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
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The Battle of Dnieper as such did not exist as a military campaign, it may have referred to several Red Army Offensive Operations in and around Dnieper in Soviet historiography, but its not definied in current academic works as far as I'm aware.
According to Krivosheev, "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses" from the time of 24 August 1943 – 23 December 1943 on what the article claims to be the "Battle of Dnieper" he list following losses:
Chernigov-Poltova Strategic Offensive Operation, 26 Aug. - 30 Sept. 1943 102,957 killed, 324,995 wounded and sick, total: 427,952
Lower Dnieper Strategic Offensive Operation, 26 Sept. - 20 Dec. 1943 77,400 killed, 226,217 wounded and sick, total 303,617
These two, were the major Red Army Offensive at time, all other Offensive Operations listen between the time frame of "24 August 1943 – 23 December 1943" having less then <50,000 casualties at most. It simply does not add up what the article is claiming and thus I've removed it. TwilightPliskin ( talk) 10:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I find it laughable that the Polish IP 94.254.130.215 reintroduced the revisionistic and apologia memoir by calling me "Fixing vandalism made by troll user" see: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_the_Dnieper&diff=next&oldid=774226284
He also reintroduced several unsourced and misrepresented paragraphs that I have removed before. TwilightPliskin ( talk) 10:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, on this talk page there is a source that states that the entirety of the Dnieper Operations : The Chernigov Poltava and Lower Dnieper offensives had about 180,000 total killed, 103,000 Chernigov 77000 Lower Dnieper, as well as around 550,000 sanitarry cases. However, in Soviet Operational Phases in the actual article there are two sections not included. The Donbass Operations and the Kiev Operations. Including those, I get a total from purely wikipedian sources of 848,469 sanitary losses and 274,667 KIA. I have not edited the article but I wanted this information to be there to look at. Is this correct or am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E0CC:8300:44FF:B664:A5DF:12C0 ( talk) 16:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Recently, on 5 March 2023, this user made 3 edits on this article, which are entirely wrong. His edits are regarding the German casualties during the battle, which the editor claims is "incomplete" and then proceeds to add astronomical number of German casualties during this battle.
For starters, this user adds in brackets that the number of 372,000 German casualties during this battle, which are in fact accurate, is "incomplete data". The number of 372,000 casualties comes from Forczyk's The Dnepr 1943: Hitler's Eastern Rampart Crumbles book, a fine work from a quality author, who extensively uses German primary sources stored at National Archives and Records Administration (NARA for short) stored in Washington DC. This includes data on losses of Heeresgruppe Süd and its armies during this battle. So the user saying it is "incomplete data" is plain wrong.
Then this editor writes in the casualty section that German losses were "749.458 total casualties, including 283,082 killed or mising (excluding SS and Luftwaffe units casualties)". The source for this is the link to the Wayback Machine about "Human Losses in World War II". The link actually shows stats for "Soviet POWs in the OKH Zone of Operation East, 1943", which are taken from Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (BA-MA), stored in Freiburg. I wonder how does that show German losses, lol. The number itself of "749.458 total casualties" of the Germans during this battle is completely wrong. It may be accurate in other ways, such as the overall losses of the Ostheer for certain period or losses of certain Heeresgruppen for certain period, but this editor specified none of this and just wrote this number in purely vague manner.
Finally, in the "Outcomes" section of this article, this user wrote that "German personnel losses are clouded by the lack of access to German unit records, which were seized at the end of the war. Many were transferred to the United States national archives and were not made available until 1978, while others were taken by the Soviet Union, which declined to confirm their existence." That's another pure nonsense. The German records, at both NARA and BA-MA, are readily available for anyone interested, for numerous decades now. Their availability everyone can see in this very article- in the edit of 23 April 2022, I personally added the strength numbers of German forces involved in this battle, straight from NARA.
![]() | A fact from Battle of the Dnieper appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 25 April 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Okay, the V1 of this page is finally there. It can and should be improved: To do:
So I put the article in Wikipedia anyway, especially since it's a little more than a stub anyway, even as of now ... ^_^ Grafikm_fr 00:04, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello, at the section "Western bank operations" the Picture caption is "The German Heer delivers fire across the Dnieper.". Heer links to the present German Army (Heer). The present german army was (according to the wikipedia article) established in 1955, i think it should be linked to the Wehrmacht article, also the Description links to Wehrmacht (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitlerdnieper.jpg). If this is acceppted, maybe someone can change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.64.67 ( talk) 14:42, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive AB#NPOV vs "mainstream".
This article has been fully protected for about seven weeks, extremely long for wikipedia standards. No progress has been made in the discussion for the last two weeks. Are the parties moving toward mediation or some other form of dispute resolution? If not, then I will formally request unprotection. Calwatch 23:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
A have already proposed to request mediation concerning the use of the word "liberate", but very few people agreed to participate. With the hope that people change their opinion and are ready to resolve the dispute according to WP:DR instead of by removing the tag and edding warring, I propose the mediation once more. Please add your username below, if you are agree to participate.-- AndriyK 07:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tag. It is not a legal way to resolve disputes.-- AndriyK 08:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the dreadful Liberation word. Those who care are looking for the possibilities to work on the articles, those to care to stop works are putting tags. abakharev 12:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I was under the impression that Alex labeled the event as the Recovering of Kiev in the body of the article. Why was this wording removed from the intro and replaced with "liberated"? Is this an honest attempt at reconciliation?-- tufkaa 17:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I reestablished Battle of Kiev as Alex put it, too. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
A while back I made a rather extensive edit, [2] that was reverted at first but I believe Grafik ended up saying he would integrate it with some more sources ( see here). I would like to see this happen now that the article is unprotected. Also, I still feel strongly that the article should be redirected to Battle of the Dnieper, as we discussed extensively. heqs 03:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, time for the move redirect then. Hopefully the pointless liberate revert wars are over. I will take care of it later today if no one else does. Cheers,
heqs
14:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Actually, an admin will have to move it, because the redirect at Battle of the Dnieper already exists ( Mzajac created it just a few hours ago - strange timing!) . Any admins around, or should I file a Requested Move? We should move rather than copy+paste to save edit history, right? heqs 14:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
I have to protect the article again. It is really a shame that such a fine article should be a subject of the revert war due to such a minor matter. Please find a compromise on the talk page. As for me all the variants are acceptable including the total exclusion of the dreadful L word abakharev 21:10, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I filed a Mediation Cabal file to see if consensus can be reached with people able to do so... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I've offered to mediate this. I have some knowledge of the battle but no POV on it at all. I take it this is a matter of semantics regarding the status of people/places after troop movements.
Contact me via the mediation pahe or my talk page. Art.
Arthur Ellis
01:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
{{RFMF}}
As the article has been protected for weeks and the mediation request was rejected and there seems to be no ongoing discussion, I'm unprotecting this article. -- Tony Sidaway 22:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Could we not use "East" and "West" to describe river banks such as that of the Dnieper rather than "left" and "right"? "Left" and "right" depend entirely on which way the observer is facing. If one was at the Dnieper facing upstream (North) the left bank would be the west bank and the right bank would be the east bank, but if facing downstream (South) then they would be reversed. I'm sure there are conventions for this sort of thing but I'm sure not everyone is aware of them and perhaps they are not universal so I think it would be better to be unambiguous and use "East" and "West" rather than "Left" and "Right". Booshank 02:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Aside from a lack of footnotes in the article, I'm a bit disturbed by the statement that Germany lost their 'best' men at Stalingrad. This is POV and unprovable. Did they keep statistics or have report cards? There's no way to compare or justify this statement so I've removed it. Michael Dorosh Talk 19:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
It's worthless as far as German casualties go. If they are estimated by your "rule of thumb" method described in the lower section of the article, I strongly suggest to remove them altogether because that is a very, very vague technique and highly unlikely given the numbers. Compare 1.25 million Germans total force employef to 1.25 million highest estimate of casualties... that'd mean every German died, got wounded or taken prisoner. Completely unrealistic.
The number of Soviet KIA seems far too high, and it isnt even mentioned in the aftermath section. 72.196.193.123 ( talk) 05:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
The lead states "the casualties are estimated at being from 1,700,000 to 2,700,000 on both sides.". Isn't that the total number of casualties? I think this can be read as meaning 4-5 million casualties. -- Mortense ( talk) 11:04, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The article mixes the two spellings, i.e. "Battle of Kiev" link. In English, the common spelling is Kiev, not Kyiv. The English Wiki should reflect this, should it not? I'll wait for feedback before changing it. HammerFilmFan ( talk) 17:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Kyiv is the spelling preferred by the Government of Ukraine, and is being used more frequently in English now. However, Kiev was the spelling used in English at the time of the battle, so it looks anachronistic to use the modern spelling. I would go with Kiev for this article, and Kyiv for articles about modern Ukraine. Ground Zero | t 21:43, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved -- JHunterJ ( talk) 19:16, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Lower Dnieper Offensive → Battle of the Dnieper – This article should be moved to its proper name and retitled the Battle of the Dnieper. The reasons are WP:COMMONNAME and factual accuracy.
Per WP:COMMONNAME: There are over 10 thousand Google Books results for "Battle of the Dnieper" [3]. There are another 5 thousand for "Battle for the Dnieper" [4]. Meanwhile, excluding paper copies of Wikipedia that come up in the search engine, there are fewer than 10 results for "Lower Dnieper Offensive" [5] (perhaps inspired by Wikipedia).
For accuracy: The old title of this article was Battle of the Dnieper; in February 2008 User:Mrg3105 unilaterally moved it to Lower Dnepr strategic offensive operation [6] with edit summary "Correct translation/usage of the operation name and geographic description". Afterward, it was moved here. The original rationale for the move was completely incorrect. In fact, the Russian name of what the article describes is "Battle of the Dnieper" and the Interwiki for every article about this battle is the equivalent of "Battle of the Dnieper" (August - December 1943). The Lower Dnieper Operation is "Нижнеднепровская операция" -- this only formed a part of the battle (late September - December 1943). Zloyvolsheb ( talk) 05:43, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
From the lead:
Is that fitting for such an article? -- Mortense ( talk) 12:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
The entire article is garbage. Beyond just being unreadable, it offers no coherent narrative of the operations covered. It also has terrible problems with perspective. Its way too soviet-centric and depends almost exclusively on soviet sources. 12.12.144.130 ( talk) 19:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Battle of the Dnieper. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 23:10, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
The Battle of Dnieper as such did not exist as a military campaign, it may have referred to several Red Army Offensive Operations in and around Dnieper in Soviet historiography, but its not definied in current academic works as far as I'm aware.
According to Krivosheev, "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses" from the time of 24 August 1943 – 23 December 1943 on what the article claims to be the "Battle of Dnieper" he list following losses:
Chernigov-Poltova Strategic Offensive Operation, 26 Aug. - 30 Sept. 1943 102,957 killed, 324,995 wounded and sick, total: 427,952
Lower Dnieper Strategic Offensive Operation, 26 Sept. - 20 Dec. 1943 77,400 killed, 226,217 wounded and sick, total 303,617
These two, were the major Red Army Offensive at time, all other Offensive Operations listen between the time frame of "24 August 1943 – 23 December 1943" having less then <50,000 casualties at most. It simply does not add up what the article is claiming and thus I've removed it. TwilightPliskin ( talk) 10:09, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I find it laughable that the Polish IP 94.254.130.215 reintroduced the revisionistic and apologia memoir by calling me "Fixing vandalism made by troll user" see: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_the_Dnieper&diff=next&oldid=774226284
He also reintroduced several unsourced and misrepresented paragraphs that I have removed before. TwilightPliskin ( talk) 10:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, on this talk page there is a source that states that the entirety of the Dnieper Operations : The Chernigov Poltava and Lower Dnieper offensives had about 180,000 total killed, 103,000 Chernigov 77000 Lower Dnieper, as well as around 550,000 sanitarry cases. However, in Soviet Operational Phases in the actual article there are two sections not included. The Donbass Operations and the Kiev Operations. Including those, I get a total from purely wikipedian sources of 848,469 sanitary losses and 274,667 KIA. I have not edited the article but I wanted this information to be there to look at. Is this correct or am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E0CC:8300:44FF:B664:A5DF:12C0 ( talk) 16:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Recently, on 5 March 2023, this user made 3 edits on this article, which are entirely wrong. His edits are regarding the German casualties during the battle, which the editor claims is "incomplete" and then proceeds to add astronomical number of German casualties during this battle.
For starters, this user adds in brackets that the number of 372,000 German casualties during this battle, which are in fact accurate, is "incomplete data". The number of 372,000 casualties comes from Forczyk's The Dnepr 1943: Hitler's Eastern Rampart Crumbles book, a fine work from a quality author, who extensively uses German primary sources stored at National Archives and Records Administration (NARA for short) stored in Washington DC. This includes data on losses of Heeresgruppe Süd and its armies during this battle. So the user saying it is "incomplete data" is plain wrong.
Then this editor writes in the casualty section that German losses were "749.458 total casualties, including 283,082 killed or mising (excluding SS and Luftwaffe units casualties)". The source for this is the link to the Wayback Machine about "Human Losses in World War II". The link actually shows stats for "Soviet POWs in the OKH Zone of Operation East, 1943", which are taken from Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv (BA-MA), stored in Freiburg. I wonder how does that show German losses, lol. The number itself of "749.458 total casualties" of the Germans during this battle is completely wrong. It may be accurate in other ways, such as the overall losses of the Ostheer for certain period or losses of certain Heeresgruppen for certain period, but this editor specified none of this and just wrote this number in purely vague manner.
Finally, in the "Outcomes" section of this article, this user wrote that "German personnel losses are clouded by the lack of access to German unit records, which were seized at the end of the war. Many were transferred to the United States national archives and were not made available until 1978, while others were taken by the Soviet Union, which declined to confirm their existence." That's another pure nonsense. The German records, at both NARA and BA-MA, are readily available for anyone interested, for numerous decades now. Their availability everyone can see in this very article- in the edit of 23 April 2022, I personally added the strength numbers of German forces involved in this battle, straight from NARA.