This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Yongyu article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Battle of Yongyu has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 23, 2009. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the first major battle to involve
Australian soldiers in the
Korean War was the
Battle of the Apple Orchard in October 1950? | |||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on October 21, 2012, and October 21, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Korean War battle between the KPA 239th Regiment, the US 187th Airborne Infantry Regimental Combat Team, and the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade during the period 21-22 October 1950 occurred in the vicinity of Yongyu, North Korea (GPS coordinates 39°18'17.90"N 125°35'59.02"E). Refer to [1]. All references to Yongju should be replaced with Yongyu. -- Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
References
I have made a reversion of the mass changes to the article in September and October, which have incorporated a significant amount of WP:UNDUE detail, expanding it significantly beyond the guidance of WP:LENGTH, from a manageable 6,608 words to a completely excessive 13,645 words, 30% over the generally accepted maximum. There is no justification for this excessive verbiage on this subject. Prior to this expansion, the article was a Good Article, but it wasn't in that state immediately prior to the reversion. These changes need to be discussed, and consensus for them achieved here. However, some of them are completely unencyclopaedic, including the insertion of geographical coordinates into the text, which breaks up the flow of the prose. The lead had also been expanded beyond the size laid down in MOS:LEAD, as it was five quite good-sized paras. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
To: Peacemaker67, Mztourist, and AustralianRupert
Sirs:
It seems that your word count requirement, which I believe was the basis for Peacemaker67’s reverting the Battle of Yongyu article to Illegitimate Barrister’s earlier version, has resulted in an error-plagued article. This reversion was not proofread or error-checked before it was published. I don’t know its source, but it is a near-verbatim copy of the Battle of Yongju|Military Wiki| Fandom web page article. Who is the plagiarist here?
A casual perusal of this reversion found the following discrepancies:
a. There are still 15 incorrect references to “Yongju” in the latest revision as of 05:00, 12 November 2020. Refer to my Yongyu Versus Yongju entry on the Talk:Battle of Yongyu Page.
b. GPS coordinates are in error. 39°18’17.9”N 125°35’59.02”E is the correct LAT/LONG for Yongyu, North Korea.
c. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 1. The United Nations Command (UNC) is not the same as the United Nations (UN). The UNC was the multinational military force that supported South Korea during the Korean War. The UN is an intergovernmental organization.
d. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 3. “US” is used twice.
e. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 4. “capital Pyongyang” should be “North Korean capital at Pyongyang.”
f. Refer to Battle|187th RCT airdrop at Sukchon and Sunchon, 20–21 October 1950. In para. 2 line 1, Songnani-ni is Songnam-ni. In para. 2 line 2, Chany-ni is Chang-ni. A simple cross-check of the Google Earth Map Set KMZ Files found on the Korean War Project website allowed me to catch this error during one of my earlier revisions, which is now deleted. I suspect a copy-paste OCR error in the reverted article.
There are too many other errors to list in this forum, but you get the idea.
Please enlighten me on how using “subsequently” 44 times in the reverted article qualifies this as a Good Article?
As far as Peacemaker67’s reference to the insertion of geographical coordinates into the text is concerned, Temple’s map of the Airborne Attack on Sukch’on and Sunch’on in the Battle section is too small to locate terrain features, even when enlarged. In retrospect, there may be some unnecessary GPS coordinates (Hong Kong, for example), but GPS links to the features in Google Map’s satellite and terrain views in the absence of detailed topographical maps were most helpful to my research.
Your removal of the US 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team’s war diary entries contained in the US Army Command and General Staff College’s Combat Studies Institute Battlebook on the Battle of Sukchon-Sunchon and the Kirland/Pears Korea Remembered references on the Battle of the Apple Orchard that contains Australian Maj. Gen. (Ret) David Matheson Butler’s recollections of the battle when he was the 3 Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment’s 9 Platoon C Company commander detracts from the detail of the battle.
I found the original Wikipedia article during my study of Roy Appleman’s description of the US 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team’s operations at Sukchon and Sunchon in his book, South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu: United States Army in the Korean War: June – November 1950. Google Search returned the Battle of Yongju, which resulted in my original 18 September Talk:Battle of Yongyu Page entry.
This was my first major Wikipedia article revision (and thanks to you, it will probably be my last) so I expect critiques, not wholesale deletions. Examination of my User talk:Charles Shaulis page shows that I was allowed to correct errors that Users Dianaa and Renata caught. In my opinion, your subjective criticisms should have been accompanied by objective recommendations before you wiped out two months of my work. Although I found multiple issues with the original Battle of Yongju article on 18 September, I did not delete anything of substance. My good faith revisions and additions to the article may have been wordy, but they were factually correct, well documented, backed up by citation, and properly written/punctuated.
I believe that 40 years of US military and federal government experience in technical writing, more than a passing knowledge of Korean War military history from an American perspective, as well as having a father (deceased) who as a 24-year-old USAF 1st Lieutenant flew a C-119 that dropped US paratroopers over DZ WILLIAM on 20 October, allow me to write this.
So, what’ll it be? Word count or an informative description of the battle?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 21:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC) Charles Shaulis Topsham, Maine
I need to look at it in detail, and that won't happen today my time. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:35, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
IllegitmateBarrister wrote that 187 ABN "requested assistance" twice during their encounter with the KPA 239th Regiment; once in KPA 239th Regiment is encircled (citing Coulthard-Clark/Gallaway) and again in North Koreans attempt to break-out (citing Appleman). These incidents are one and the same. According to the 187 ABN records, it was during the attack on 3/187 ABN's Headquarters and L Companies north of Yongyu that the 3/187 ABN command post sent a radio message to the 187 RCT command post at Sukchon describing the situation and requesting armored assistance from the US 24th Infantry Division, to which 187 RCT was temporarily attached. The request for reinforcement was received by the 24th Infantry Division’s headquarters in Pyongyang. With the US division still well to the rear, the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade, encamped on the Pyongyang-Sukchon road just south of Yongyu, was the closest formation and it was ordered forward to assist the paratroopers. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 06:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
In re Background, the US 72nd Combat Engineers was a US Army company-level formation, not battalion-level. IMHO, I suggest replacing "a company from the US 72nd Combat Engineer Battalion" with " combat engineers from the US 72nd Engineer Company." In re Citations and References, Mztourist's 22:32, 21 November 2020 Background edit removed the only Johnston and MacDonald citations contained in the article. Therefore, the Johnston and MacDonald references should be deleted, as they are now extraneous to the article. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 15:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
On a whim, I ran a Google Search on the US 5th RCT, which included the 72nd Engineer Company. You might want to take a look at Wikipedia’s 5th Infantry Regiment (United States) Korean War section. The 5th Infantry Regiment Association’s web site also mentions “72nd Engineer Company” on its http://bobcat.ws/korea.html page. I also searched https://books.google.com/ for “72nd Engineer Company” to satisfy WP:RS and received a hit on The Korean war: an exhaustive chronology - Volume 1 by Bud Hannings (2007) with the following text: FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 979 … 555 Field Artillery Battalion (105mm) (Known as "The Triple-Nickel); 72nd Engineer Company 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team 187th Airborne RCT (Brigadier General Frank S. Bowen Jr. Units: 187th Airborne Infantry Regiment; …. Thinking that this book would be a nice addition to my Korean War reference library, I looked it up. The 3-volume hardcover set sells for $423.04 on eBAY and $339.20 on Amazon, a bit pricey to support my company/battalion argument. BooksAMillion has it for $97.66. There is also Hills of Sacrifice, The 5th Rct in Korea by Michael P. Slater (2000) that sells for $19.65 in paperback that I would assume contains 72nd Engineer Company reference material. If you’re interested, Hanning’s book bibliography is Hannings, Bud. The Korean War: an Exhaustive Chronology. McFarland & Co., 2007. ISBN-13: 978-0786428144 ISBN-10: 0786428147. I don't know what else to present as supporting evidence. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 07:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The official lineage certificate for the 72nd Engineer Combat Company [5] with Korea campaign streamers is posted on the U.S. Army Center from Military History's website, which seems to confirm the correct unit designation. US Army General Orders 40, page 3 [6], confirms that it was a company-size unit by replacing an apparent typo in describing it as a battalion in the order describing units awarded Korea campaign credits. Most strongly, there are detailed accounts from two officers of the 72nd Engineer Combat Company in an official collection of Korean War US Army Engineer interviews. Uzal Ent in Fighting on the Brink provides a possible clue to the confusion of unit designations with the detail that the 72d Engineer Combat Battalion became the 5th RCT's 72d Engineer Combat Company in 1949 [7]. Given all this evidence it seems clear that Farrar-Hockley's mention is just a typo. Kges1901 ( talk) 14:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Getting back to the original subject of this, the identity of the 72nd Engineers, it appears that Hannings' reference to the '72nd Engineer Combat Battalion' is copied from Appleman in South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu, because Hannings' chronology is a tertiary source by definition and Appleman's action involving them and the 24th Infantry is in reference to the Task Force Kean counterattack from 7-12 August 1950. It seems very clear that Appleman has a typo in referring to the unit as a battalion because a lieutenant from the 72nd Engineer Combat Company recounts their participation as part of TF Kean, which the 5th RCT was attached to, and running into a "North Korean buzz saw" while fighting as infantry in Remembering the Forgotten War, pp 22-25. What we have so far, then, is all mentions of the "72nd Engineer Combat Battalion" being typos for the 72nd Engineer Combat Company. Kges1901 ( talk) 14:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
1. US Army Generals Walton Walker (commanding EUSAK), Hobart Gay (commanding the 1st Cavalry Division), and John Church (commanding the 24th Infantry Division) are mentioned only once in the article. I suggest deleting their names from the associated units as they are extraneous to the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade's attachment to the associated US army/division.
2. After "It was attached to the US 1st Cavalry Division," in the OPFOR section, I suggest adding "but would work as a separate task force at a considerable distance from, and without physical contact with, that division or other friendly units." See Gugeler, Russell A. Combat Actions in Korea. Center of Military History, U.S. Army, 1987, Chapter 4, page 39 https://www.koreanwar2.org/kwp2/cmh/combat_actions_in_korea.pdf.
3. I have noticed that this article is dominated by British English, as opposed to American English, spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I have absolutely no problem with sticking to British English, as long as it's used consistently throughout the article and does not introduce ambiguity. For example, I was taught to use the Oxford comma before the and/or coordinating conjunction in a series of three or more items (spelling, grammar, and punctuation); this is not the case in British English composition (spelling, grammar and punctuation). Prepositional phrases that begin a sentence (On 23 October, Prior to the attack, etc.) should be followed by a comma. Consistently correct punctuation will make this a better WP:GA.
Comments?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 22:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: The Chongchon River is linked in paragraph 3 of the Lead section. Does it require a duplicate link in the Prelude/Opposing Forces section? Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Mztourist:
In November 1943, General MacArthur obtained his own personal B–17E Flying Fortress that he named "Bataan." In April 1945, General MacArthur received "Bataan II," a C–54 as his personal aircraft. See https://planesoffame.org/aircraft/plane-VC-121A for background information on his VC–121. The nose art on all three aircraft displayed "Bataan" over the island of Luzon.
If you are questioning the aircraft type, please remove your reversion. If you are questioning the aircraft name, change the text to read "MacArthur had flown from Japan to watch the drop from the air, and after observing the landing aboard Bataan, MacArthur’s new VC-121A Constellation that he had received in September,...."
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67, Mztourist, and AustralianRupert:
Since Peacemaker67 and Mztourist believe that there is too much minutiae about the US airdrop that adds nothing to the subject of the Battle of Yongyu, I'd like to put forth the following recommendations:
1. 187th RCT airdrop at Sukchon and Sunchon, 20 – 21 October 1950 is covered in Wikipedia’s 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: Airborne assault, 20 October 1950), and can be deleted since it is covered in sufficient detail in the Lead section’s second paragraph and the last paragraph of the Prelude/Opposing Forces subsection. This removes a WP:CFORK issue between the two articles.
2. KPA 239th Regiment is encircled, 21 October 1950 is covered in the 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: NKPA 239th Regiment encirclement, 21 October 1950). The first two paragraphs can be deleted since they are not relevant to the Battle of Yongyu. Additionally, PFC Richard Wilson was killed sometime after 15:30 on 21 October. The 27th British Commonwealth Brigade did not leave Pyongyang until around noon on 21 October and did not reach Yongyu until that evening. This removes another WP:CFORK issue.
3. North Koreans attempt to break-out, 21/22 October 1950 is covered in the 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: NKPA 239th Regiment breakout, 22 October 1950). The first two paragraphs can be deleted since they contain no information relevant to the Battle of Yongyu. There is a WP:UNDUE issue with this section as written.
4. Five of the nine thumbnail images in the Battle of Yongyu article are associated with 187th ARCT airdrop, and can be removed since they are not relevant to the Battle of Yongyu.
Last, Edward M. Flanagan, Jr., author of The Rakkasans: The Combat History of the 187th Airborne Infantry, identified Lt. Col. Charles H. Greene [sic] as the CO of the Argylls on page 165. How is Flanagan’s credibility any different that Farrar-Hockley who referred to the 72nd Engineer Combat Company as a battalion? Is Flanagan any less a WP:RS than Farrar Hockley?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 00:25, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
"The British and Australians had covered 122 kilometres (76 mi) in the previous two days, advancing rapidly until slowed by rain. A Company, 3 RAR, was engaged by snipers from a nearby village without suffering casualties. The Sherman tanks proceeded to heavily engage the KPA positions in the village, which was then cleared by the Australian infantry who killed five KPA and took three prisoners. As the rain ceased a KPA T-34 tank, which had remained concealed during the earlier fighting, engaged D Company, 3 RAR, and was knocked out by the US tanks. An unmanned SU-76 self-propelled gun was also located nearby and neither it nor the tank were found to have any petrol." [referenced source citation: Bartlett (1960), p. 30]
Would someone with access to Norman Bartlett's With the Australians in Korea clean up this text; e.g., what village is referenced? This action must have occurred before the brigade departed Pyongyang for Sukchon. Is this text even relevant to the Yongyu advance?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 09:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
@ AustralianRupert: I see that the Talk:Battle of Yongju/GA1 page lists you as the reviewer. Because of the amount of revision that has occurred since the page received its Good Article designation in 2011, IMO it needs to be submitted again. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 09:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Yongyu article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Battle of Yongyu has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
| ||||||||||
![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
August 23, 2009. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the first major battle to involve
Australian soldiers in the
Korean War was the
Battle of the Apple Orchard in October 1950? | |||||||||
![]() | Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on October 21, 2012, and October 21, 2018. |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The Korean War battle between the KPA 239th Regiment, the US 187th Airborne Infantry Regimental Combat Team, and the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade during the period 21-22 October 1950 occurred in the vicinity of Yongyu, North Korea (GPS coordinates 39°18'17.90"N 125°35'59.02"E). Refer to [1]. All references to Yongju should be replaced with Yongyu. -- Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
References
I have made a reversion of the mass changes to the article in September and October, which have incorporated a significant amount of WP:UNDUE detail, expanding it significantly beyond the guidance of WP:LENGTH, from a manageable 6,608 words to a completely excessive 13,645 words, 30% over the generally accepted maximum. There is no justification for this excessive verbiage on this subject. Prior to this expansion, the article was a Good Article, but it wasn't in that state immediately prior to the reversion. These changes need to be discussed, and consensus for them achieved here. However, some of them are completely unencyclopaedic, including the insertion of geographical coordinates into the text, which breaks up the flow of the prose. The lead had also been expanded beyond the size laid down in MOS:LEAD, as it was five quite good-sized paras. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
To: Peacemaker67, Mztourist, and AustralianRupert
Sirs:
It seems that your word count requirement, which I believe was the basis for Peacemaker67’s reverting the Battle of Yongyu article to Illegitimate Barrister’s earlier version, has resulted in an error-plagued article. This reversion was not proofread or error-checked before it was published. I don’t know its source, but it is a near-verbatim copy of the Battle of Yongju|Military Wiki| Fandom web page article. Who is the plagiarist here?
A casual perusal of this reversion found the following discrepancies:
a. There are still 15 incorrect references to “Yongju” in the latest revision as of 05:00, 12 November 2020. Refer to my Yongyu Versus Yongju entry on the Talk:Battle of Yongyu Page.
b. GPS coordinates are in error. 39°18’17.9”N 125°35’59.02”E is the correct LAT/LONG for Yongyu, North Korea.
c. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 1. The United Nations Command (UNC) is not the same as the United Nations (UN). The UNC was the multinational military force that supported South Korea during the Korean War. The UN is an intergovernmental organization.
d. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 3. “US” is used twice.
e. Refer to Lead para. 1 line 4. “capital Pyongyang” should be “North Korean capital at Pyongyang.”
f. Refer to Battle|187th RCT airdrop at Sukchon and Sunchon, 20–21 October 1950. In para. 2 line 1, Songnani-ni is Songnam-ni. In para. 2 line 2, Chany-ni is Chang-ni. A simple cross-check of the Google Earth Map Set KMZ Files found on the Korean War Project website allowed me to catch this error during one of my earlier revisions, which is now deleted. I suspect a copy-paste OCR error in the reverted article.
There are too many other errors to list in this forum, but you get the idea.
Please enlighten me on how using “subsequently” 44 times in the reverted article qualifies this as a Good Article?
As far as Peacemaker67’s reference to the insertion of geographical coordinates into the text is concerned, Temple’s map of the Airborne Attack on Sukch’on and Sunch’on in the Battle section is too small to locate terrain features, even when enlarged. In retrospect, there may be some unnecessary GPS coordinates (Hong Kong, for example), but GPS links to the features in Google Map’s satellite and terrain views in the absence of detailed topographical maps were most helpful to my research.
Your removal of the US 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team’s war diary entries contained in the US Army Command and General Staff College’s Combat Studies Institute Battlebook on the Battle of Sukchon-Sunchon and the Kirland/Pears Korea Remembered references on the Battle of the Apple Orchard that contains Australian Maj. Gen. (Ret) David Matheson Butler’s recollections of the battle when he was the 3 Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment’s 9 Platoon C Company commander detracts from the detail of the battle.
I found the original Wikipedia article during my study of Roy Appleman’s description of the US 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team’s operations at Sukchon and Sunchon in his book, South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu: United States Army in the Korean War: June – November 1950. Google Search returned the Battle of Yongju, which resulted in my original 18 September Talk:Battle of Yongyu Page entry.
This was my first major Wikipedia article revision (and thanks to you, it will probably be my last) so I expect critiques, not wholesale deletions. Examination of my User talk:Charles Shaulis page shows that I was allowed to correct errors that Users Dianaa and Renata caught. In my opinion, your subjective criticisms should have been accompanied by objective recommendations before you wiped out two months of my work. Although I found multiple issues with the original Battle of Yongju article on 18 September, I did not delete anything of substance. My good faith revisions and additions to the article may have been wordy, but they were factually correct, well documented, backed up by citation, and properly written/punctuated.
I believe that 40 years of US military and federal government experience in technical writing, more than a passing knowledge of Korean War military history from an American perspective, as well as having a father (deceased) who as a 24-year-old USAF 1st Lieutenant flew a C-119 that dropped US paratroopers over DZ WILLIAM on 20 October, allow me to write this.
So, what’ll it be? Word count or an informative description of the battle?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 21:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC) Charles Shaulis Topsham, Maine
I need to look at it in detail, and that won't happen today my time. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 09:35, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
IllegitmateBarrister wrote that 187 ABN "requested assistance" twice during their encounter with the KPA 239th Regiment; once in KPA 239th Regiment is encircled (citing Coulthard-Clark/Gallaway) and again in North Koreans attempt to break-out (citing Appleman). These incidents are one and the same. According to the 187 ABN records, it was during the attack on 3/187 ABN's Headquarters and L Companies north of Yongyu that the 3/187 ABN command post sent a radio message to the 187 RCT command post at Sukchon describing the situation and requesting armored assistance from the US 24th Infantry Division, to which 187 RCT was temporarily attached. The request for reinforcement was received by the 24th Infantry Division’s headquarters in Pyongyang. With the US division still well to the rear, the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade, encamped on the Pyongyang-Sukchon road just south of Yongyu, was the closest formation and it was ordered forward to assist the paratroopers. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 06:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
In re Background, the US 72nd Combat Engineers was a US Army company-level formation, not battalion-level. IMHO, I suggest replacing "a company from the US 72nd Combat Engineer Battalion" with " combat engineers from the US 72nd Engineer Company." In re Citations and References, Mztourist's 22:32, 21 November 2020 Background edit removed the only Johnston and MacDonald citations contained in the article. Therefore, the Johnston and MacDonald references should be deleted, as they are now extraneous to the article. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 15:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
On a whim, I ran a Google Search on the US 5th RCT, which included the 72nd Engineer Company. You might want to take a look at Wikipedia’s 5th Infantry Regiment (United States) Korean War section. The 5th Infantry Regiment Association’s web site also mentions “72nd Engineer Company” on its http://bobcat.ws/korea.html page. I also searched https://books.google.com/ for “72nd Engineer Company” to satisfy WP:RS and received a hit on The Korean war: an exhaustive chronology - Volume 1 by Bud Hannings (2007) with the following text: FOUND INSIDE – PAGE 979 … 555 Field Artillery Battalion (105mm) (Known as "The Triple-Nickel); 72nd Engineer Company 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team 187th Airborne RCT (Brigadier General Frank S. Bowen Jr. Units: 187th Airborne Infantry Regiment; …. Thinking that this book would be a nice addition to my Korean War reference library, I looked it up. The 3-volume hardcover set sells for $423.04 on eBAY and $339.20 on Amazon, a bit pricey to support my company/battalion argument. BooksAMillion has it for $97.66. There is also Hills of Sacrifice, The 5th Rct in Korea by Michael P. Slater (2000) that sells for $19.65 in paperback that I would assume contains 72nd Engineer Company reference material. If you’re interested, Hanning’s book bibliography is Hannings, Bud. The Korean War: an Exhaustive Chronology. McFarland & Co., 2007. ISBN-13: 978-0786428144 ISBN-10: 0786428147. I don't know what else to present as supporting evidence. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 07:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The official lineage certificate for the 72nd Engineer Combat Company [5] with Korea campaign streamers is posted on the U.S. Army Center from Military History's website, which seems to confirm the correct unit designation. US Army General Orders 40, page 3 [6], confirms that it was a company-size unit by replacing an apparent typo in describing it as a battalion in the order describing units awarded Korea campaign credits. Most strongly, there are detailed accounts from two officers of the 72nd Engineer Combat Company in an official collection of Korean War US Army Engineer interviews. Uzal Ent in Fighting on the Brink provides a possible clue to the confusion of unit designations with the detail that the 72d Engineer Combat Battalion became the 5th RCT's 72d Engineer Combat Company in 1949 [7]. Given all this evidence it seems clear that Farrar-Hockley's mention is just a typo. Kges1901 ( talk) 14:55, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Getting back to the original subject of this, the identity of the 72nd Engineers, it appears that Hannings' reference to the '72nd Engineer Combat Battalion' is copied from Appleman in South to the Naktong, North to the Yalu, because Hannings' chronology is a tertiary source by definition and Appleman's action involving them and the 24th Infantry is in reference to the Task Force Kean counterattack from 7-12 August 1950. It seems very clear that Appleman has a typo in referring to the unit as a battalion because a lieutenant from the 72nd Engineer Combat Company recounts their participation as part of TF Kean, which the 5th RCT was attached to, and running into a "North Korean buzz saw" while fighting as infantry in Remembering the Forgotten War, pp 22-25. What we have so far, then, is all mentions of the "72nd Engineer Combat Battalion" being typos for the 72nd Engineer Combat Company. Kges1901 ( talk) 14:01, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
1. US Army Generals Walton Walker (commanding EUSAK), Hobart Gay (commanding the 1st Cavalry Division), and John Church (commanding the 24th Infantry Division) are mentioned only once in the article. I suggest deleting their names from the associated units as they are extraneous to the 27th British Commonwealth Brigade's attachment to the associated US army/division.
2. After "It was attached to the US 1st Cavalry Division," in the OPFOR section, I suggest adding "but would work as a separate task force at a considerable distance from, and without physical contact with, that division or other friendly units." See Gugeler, Russell A. Combat Actions in Korea. Center of Military History, U.S. Army, 1987, Chapter 4, page 39 https://www.koreanwar2.org/kwp2/cmh/combat_actions_in_korea.pdf.
3. I have noticed that this article is dominated by British English, as opposed to American English, spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I have absolutely no problem with sticking to British English, as long as it's used consistently throughout the article and does not introduce ambiguity. For example, I was taught to use the Oxford comma before the and/or coordinating conjunction in a series of three or more items (spelling, grammar, and punctuation); this is not the case in British English composition (spelling, grammar and punctuation). Prepositional phrases that begin a sentence (On 23 October, Prior to the attack, etc.) should be followed by a comma. Consistently correct punctuation will make this a better WP:GA.
Comments?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 22:38, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67: The Chongchon River is linked in paragraph 3 of the Lead section. Does it require a duplicate link in the Prelude/Opposing Forces section? Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:36, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Mztourist:
In November 1943, General MacArthur obtained his own personal B–17E Flying Fortress that he named "Bataan." In April 1945, General MacArthur received "Bataan II," a C–54 as his personal aircraft. See https://planesoffame.org/aircraft/plane-VC-121A for background information on his VC–121. The nose art on all three aircraft displayed "Bataan" over the island of Luzon.
If you are questioning the aircraft type, please remove your reversion. If you are questioning the aircraft name, change the text to read "MacArthur had flown from Japan to watch the drop from the air, and after observing the landing aboard Bataan, MacArthur’s new VC-121A Constellation that he had received in September,...."
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 05:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
@ Peacemaker67, Mztourist, and AustralianRupert:
Since Peacemaker67 and Mztourist believe that there is too much minutiae about the US airdrop that adds nothing to the subject of the Battle of Yongyu, I'd like to put forth the following recommendations:
1. 187th RCT airdrop at Sukchon and Sunchon, 20 – 21 October 1950 is covered in Wikipedia’s 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: Airborne assault, 20 October 1950), and can be deleted since it is covered in sufficient detail in the Lead section’s second paragraph and the last paragraph of the Prelude/Opposing Forces subsection. This removes a WP:CFORK issue between the two articles.
2. KPA 239th Regiment is encircled, 21 October 1950 is covered in the 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: NKPA 239th Regiment encirclement, 21 October 1950). The first two paragraphs can be deleted since they are not relevant to the Battle of Yongyu. Additionally, PFC Richard Wilson was killed sometime after 15:30 on 21 October. The 27th British Commonwealth Brigade did not leave Pyongyang until around noon on 21 October and did not reach Yongyu until that evening. This removes another WP:CFORK issue.
3. North Koreans attempt to break-out, 21/22 October 1950 is covered in the 187th Infantry Regiment (United States) article (see 187th Airborne Regimental Combat Team Operations at Sukchon and Sunchon: NKPA 239th Regiment breakout, 22 October 1950). The first two paragraphs can be deleted since they contain no information relevant to the Battle of Yongyu. There is a WP:UNDUE issue with this section as written.
4. Five of the nine thumbnail images in the Battle of Yongyu article are associated with 187th ARCT airdrop, and can be removed since they are not relevant to the Battle of Yongyu.
Last, Edward M. Flanagan, Jr., author of The Rakkasans: The Combat History of the 187th Airborne Infantry, identified Lt. Col. Charles H. Greene [sic] as the CO of the Argylls on page 165. How is Flanagan’s credibility any different that Farrar-Hockley who referred to the 72nd Engineer Combat Company as a battalion? Is Flanagan any less a WP:RS than Farrar Hockley?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 00:25, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
"The British and Australians had covered 122 kilometres (76 mi) in the previous two days, advancing rapidly until slowed by rain. A Company, 3 RAR, was engaged by snipers from a nearby village without suffering casualties. The Sherman tanks proceeded to heavily engage the KPA positions in the village, which was then cleared by the Australian infantry who killed five KPA and took three prisoners. As the rain ceased a KPA T-34 tank, which had remained concealed during the earlier fighting, engaged D Company, 3 RAR, and was knocked out by the US tanks. An unmanned SU-76 self-propelled gun was also located nearby and neither it nor the tank were found to have any petrol." [referenced source citation: Bartlett (1960), p. 30]
Would someone with access to Norman Bartlett's With the Australians in Korea clean up this text; e.g., what village is referenced? This action must have occurred before the brigade departed Pyongyang for Sukchon. Is this text even relevant to the Yongyu advance?
Charles Shaulis ( talk) 09:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
@ AustralianRupert: I see that the Talk:Battle of Yongju/GA1 page lists you as the reviewer. Because of the amount of revision that has occurred since the page received its Good Article designation in 2011, IMO it needs to be submitted again. Charles Shaulis ( talk) 09:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC)