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I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thank you for your new article on the Battle of Pashtrik. Note that other editors have called for improved citations/footnotes in the main text area..
--- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 20:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Crazydude1912 and Peervalaa: you should stop making reverts on the article. Peervalaa, as you want to change the stable version, you need to provide your rationale here, amd then things can be sorted out. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Alright @peervalaa let's check your sources.
First source [1]
First of all this author is describing myths. This source is pretty much garbage since you can't creat a serious article with myths. Still you argumented on an administrator user page (not on the Battle of Pashtrik article) a KLA/Nato defeat with the quote: page 53 ("Operation Arrow was limited to one sector, and even so, it was not a success. A US intelligence official, in fact, claimed the KLA was “creamed.” The KLA forces came under heavy Serb artillery fire, and while some areas changed hands, no major gains were claimed by the KLA.")
I hope you can see what the problem here is since this myth describes not a Yugoslav victory but no win for the KLA/Nato side.
To be honest this was probably the worst source you could choose. It is funny that the only NOT myth part (the introduction) describes a KLA/Nato victory:Operation Allied Force was a hardwon success for NATO
Second source [2]
This article is in Croatian, but English translation is given. The translation doesn't mention any defeat. I asked you to show me a quote but you acted ignorant. I would still recommend you to use neutral English sources since other languages especially in the Balkans always take a side and are harder to proof.
Third source [3]
Since you didn't provide a link i even looked it up by myself. Page 199 Note 35: Mentions no KLA/Nato defeat. I once again asked you show me anything where a defeat is mentioned. If the book says quote:.. was not a success, it doesn't mean that the KLA/Nato was defeated.
Fourth source [4]
Quotation:The major KLA offensive (code-named Operation Arrow) launched in late May in the Mount Pastrik area of southwestern Kosovo met with little if any success. Even after heavy NATO bombing of suspected VJ defensive positions, KLA forces were able to penetrate only a few miles into Kosovo during two weeks of fighting.
Here we got the same situation as in the third source. You should learn what a defeat is.
My suggestion: If you can't show us any reliable source which shows us a Yugoslav victory or a KLA/Nato defeat don't change this part in the article. Even if you got any RS talk it first out on the talkpage.
Since the result of the battle is a dispute i suggest keeping the part:Kumanovo Treaty, End of the Kosovo war as the best version. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 17:42, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
You are accusing me of "balatantly false editing" even though I didn't edit anything but just was reverting your claim of a KLA/Nato defeat that you tried to back up with sources which tell us a whole other story. The full block of this page only happened since I had to revert false claims even though I was asking which part of your sources show us a KLA/Nato defeat, which of course was ignored with the words "read carefully". I offered you to discuss it on the talk page wich you obviously rejected, so don't play the 'You don't want to seek an honest consensus' card. You also beeing dishonest since you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say like :"is Croatian scholar and your claim that he somehow is not neutral is funny." even though I said "This article is in Croatian, but English translation is given. The translation doesn't mention any defeat. I asked you to show me a quote but you acted ignorant. I would still recommend you to use neutral English sources since other languages especially in the Balkans always take a side and are harder to proof." in which I was not reffering to that Croatian source, but to non English sources especially from the Balkans in general.
I think that you are false interpreting some words like defeat in the way you like the most. By your logic a KLA/Nato defeat is not achieved either since the Yugoslav army couldn't prevent territory losses. The KLA goal in the first place was breaking through the border, eliminate Yugoslav troops and establish supply corridors. Even though in this battle the KLA did not get deep into the occupied territory, it still achieved its goal since the Yugoslav troops lost control over the border. Even though this was the last major battle in the Kosovo War you were right in the point that this battle didn't directly affect the signing of the Treaty of Kumanovo. Since no side can really claim a defeat I think that a stalemate in this part is an honest and the best solution, and it's accepted by other Serbian editors too. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 21:34, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Sorry @Crazydude1912 but I simply do not see any arguments presented from your side, just personal opinions and analysis, which is of little interest for the Wiki. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
We were clearly talking about the result section. Your are accusing me of blatantly false editing by linking reverts I did for the casualties section. This just shows your dishonest work since you try to create an image of me of an false editing editor with reverts I have done that in the first place don't have anything to do with this topic. I am going to tell you again that I'm not refusing your sources just because I tell you that your sources poorly back up the theory of a KLA/NATO defeat. "I have put forward enough sources that back my edits"-> No you didn't. Your sources decribe a stalemate. The only source you did show us that mentions a defeat is a Croation source that has to be first translated. On the other hand I can show you sources that clearly talk about a stalemate: [5] [6]
You also said:"KLA failed to achieve any of its objectives and NATO failed to achieve its objective of eliminating large number of Yugoslav troops in this battle." This was never and could never be a goal of Nato, killing a large number of troops. The main goal of Nato was the destruction of abilities to slows down the mass killing of Albanians. [7] Nato with the help of the KLA was very successfull in that point. [8]
We are talking about the Battle of Pashtrik which was one part of the Operation Arrow. The long term goal of Operation Arrow was penetrating deep into the center of Kosovo which was quite exaggerated and not achievable in the short term. With the not achieved goals of long term Operation Arrow you are claiming a defeat of KLA/Nato in the area of Mount Pashtrik.
The only real result for this article, which was also the longtime stable version, is a stalemate. The Yugoslav army was never able to recapture the whole gains of the KLA/Nato at the Mount Pashtrik.
References
{{
citation}}
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has extra text (
help); |volume=
has extra text (
help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
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... the UCK offensive had "stalled"
successfully stalled
...to reduce the ability of the Serbian military...
During the last weeks NATO was able to eliminate twice as many tanks...
{{
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"Maybe Yugoslavs did not capture back few square feet of a mountain slope but they sure did stop KLA from meeting any of its objectives and they did that while inflicting heavy losses." Sounds like a stalemate. I hope that you are aware of that this page will be blocked again if you edit this article based on your interpretation and point of view without reaching a consensus. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 10:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I did change it back since I revertet his edit too. I have shown enough sources that show us a stalemate even more than you show us a KLA/NATO defeat. So why should we take your version? Crazydude1912 ( talk) 11:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Your version is backed up by a Croatian source only. 4 more sources don't even talk about a defeat but describe even more a stalemate. The war ended before the battle was over. No side met any its objectives. Where is it mentioned that the KLA was fully driven out? Crazydude1912 ( talk) 12:42, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
"Other sources you are mentioning are not describing stalemate, again, that is your interpretation" No it is not my interpretation but clearly mentioned in my sources.
"Their objective was to defend the border and they did that." Since the Yugoslav army lost control over it i suggest that it did fail its objective.
I'm going to assume that this won't convince you. Sombody completely neutral should have a look over this discussion. I see that you don't have arguments anymore. But still if there is no consensus then there is no change. Changing the article to your preferred version like you did again won't solve anything. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 14:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
In lieu of handing out blocks for WP:3RR violations and edit warring, I've fullY protected the page for three days. Hammer out your differences here and come to a consensus please. If a consensus is reached prior to the block expiring, you can request that the page be unprotected at WP:RFPP.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 18:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
It's obvious that 1400 couldn't have possibly died out of a total force of 1200 people and the source which makes this claim is not reliable. The total numbers about Operation Arrow in Hockenos, Paul (2003). Homeland Calling: Exile Patriotism & the Balkan Wars. Cornell University Press. ISBN 0801441587. don't even come close to the figures which are being discussed by the involved editors.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Details of the UCK units involved in 'Arrow' remain unclear, including the actual number of Kosovar combatants. Albanian television reported on 2 June that the 'Ismet Jashari Kumanova 121st Brigade and 123rd Brigade in the 'Pastrik Operational Zone' were engaging Yugoslav forces, but offered nothing more specific. Most reports indicate that up to 4,000 insurgents were involved in the offensive, while some have as few as 250 insurgents engaging the Yugoslav army. General Wesley Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, in his recent account of the war, puts the number between 1,800 and 2,000from The battle for mount Pastrik: A preliminary study-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
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Revert article back to its sourced version
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Pa%C5%A1trik&oldid=968300352 Peervalaa ( talk) 09:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
It's not a problem to add some sources to this current stable version. Instead of reverting it to a poorly sourced out version. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 10:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Peervalaa: what do you think about this version? :
Crazydude1912 ( talk) 14:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The source (Hockenos, Paul (2003). Homeland Calling: Exile Patriotism & the Balkan Wars. Cornell University Press. pp. 238–239. ISBN 0-8014-4158-7.) is quite explicit that it's actually the 121st Brigade. @ Adhurim Jakupi: is there a reason you reverted my edit? Here's the diff. Also, I tried to talk to you in your Talk page about similar behavior in the Battle of Košare article, and you haven't answered.-- Aleksamil ( talk) 00:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think this is corroborated by the sources provided in this article. @ Adhurim Jakupi: do you have any sources to back that up? Also @ Sadko: you're both close to breaking WP:3RR, as a more experienced user you should try to avoid this WP:EDITWAR. Adhurim doesn't seem to be responding to me, how do you propose we can deal with the edit war here (and the simultaneous one in the Battle of Košare article)? -- Aleksamil ( talk) 10:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
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93.87.128.3 ( talk) 20:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Tactical defeat of the KLA and NATO.
@ Durraz0: Thank you for the article's expansion. I did some cleanup. Norway which has been added as a supporting force in the battle, seems to have assisted via the donation of a field hospital for wounded combatants and Albania provided artillery support. The average reader will not go into details and might think that they participated with active troops. I think that their involvement should be discussed via more specific terms on the infobox.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:59, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I have contributed a few updates to the page as I could see some errors and conflicting information.
1. Casualties: Serbian casualties were updated to (25 dead, 126 injured). I translated (Google translate) the referenced article in question and the previous statistics refer to losses sustained in the entire region from an unspecified time frame. The losses from this specific battle are listed as (25 dead, 126 injured). In addition, according to the Serbian Wikipedia page, 500 KLA troops were wounded. This uses the same reference as the current English Wikipedia page which states that 200 were wounded. This needs clarification. 2. Strength: The KLA figures are derived from the Albanian version of this page with no references attached. Given that this battle was a major offensive, it is impossible that 150 soldiers were initially put into action. Forage (2001) states that General Wesley Clark puts figures at around 1,800-2000. In addition, Task Force Hawk and the Albanian 2nd army were added, as stated in Forage (2001). 3. The sentence:
"Albanian refugees from Gorozup, Milaj, Gjonaj and Planeja at the slopes of Mount Paštrik reported that they had been beaten, killed and forcefully driven out of their villages by Yugoslav army, police and paramilitaries..."
uses a reference from April 1999. A better reference post conflict (June, 1999) would be better.
4. The sentence:
"Only around 250 KLA insurgents actually saw combat during the operation..."
Incorrectly states that the referenced author in question has come to this conclusion. This is false as the entire narrative states:
"Most reports indicate that up to 4,000 insurgents were involved in the offensive, while some have as few as 250 insurgents engaging the Yugoslav army."
The author of this article highlights that this is a disputed fact and provides no final consensus in the article. Further clarification is needed.
In all, great article. ElderZamzam ( talk) 07:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public,60 Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.'61 In a speech on 12 August, 2000, General Lazarevic also conceded that 'we lost many heroes, who laid down their lives at Pastrik, Planeja, Cicavica, Gorozup, Kosare, Dulj, Reljan and other battlefields-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public, Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. After President Milosevic awarded the 549th the National Hero Medal on 16 June 1999, 'for heroic achievements in the defence of [Yugoslav] territorial integrity and sovereignty', Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.'-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
@ ElderZamzam: can you quote where in the interview of Agim Sylejmani it is claimed that the Albanian army was one of the combatants in the battle of Pashtrik? An interview is not a good source for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims, but before I remove it - as a native speaker of Albanian - I want to know from which part of the interview you inferred the content of your edit.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Dihet mirëfilli se pjesa veriore e Shqipërisë, gjegjësisht zona kufitare ku ishin ngritur qendrat stërvitore të UҪK-së dhe bëheshin përgatitjet për frontin e Koshares dhe të Pashtrikut në kuadër të operacionit “Shigjeta”, ishte nën përgjegjësinë ushtarake të Divizionit të Kukësit në krye me Gjeneral Kudusi Lama. A mund të na thoni konkretisht, cili ishte roli i Gjeneral Kudusi Lamës me Divizionin e Kukësit, në përgatitjen logjistike për Operacionin “Shigjeta”?. To which he responds
Divizioni i Kukësit dhe gjeneral Kudusi Lama ishin bartësit kryesor të luftës që zhvillohej në gjithë atë front të gjerë, aq sa ishte edhe vija kufitare Shqipëri-Kosovë. Ne kishim djem e vajza të gatshëm të jepnin edhe jetën e tyre për lirinë e Kosovës, por pa Divizionin e Kukësit, e sidomos të vetë gjeneral Kudusi Lama dhe gjithë stafit të tij ushtarak, as që mund të imagjinohet lufta e UÇK-së në kufi me Kosovën, ku ishin të përqëndruara njësitë elite artilerike e tankiste të ushtrisë serbe të shoqëruara nga njësitë paramilitare serbe dhe mercenare ruse. Kundër këtyre forcave të mëdha në numër dhe të paisura me armët më moderne të kohës nuk mjaftonte vetëm vullneti për të luftuar, por duheshin edhe mjetet përkatëse për të përballuar armikun shumëfish më të madh në numër dhe të paisur.The fact that you have already planned to remove the content without a valid discussion shows that you have no interest in engaging in any sort of constructive dialogue to advance this page. ElderZamzam ( talk) 22:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | The
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I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thank you for your new article on the Battle of Pashtrik. Note that other editors have called for improved citations/footnotes in the main text area..
--- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 20:21, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Crazydude1912 and Peervalaa: you should stop making reverts on the article. Peervalaa, as you want to change the stable version, you need to provide your rationale here, amd then things can be sorted out. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 18:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Alright @peervalaa let's check your sources.
First source [1]
First of all this author is describing myths. This source is pretty much garbage since you can't creat a serious article with myths. Still you argumented on an administrator user page (not on the Battle of Pashtrik article) a KLA/Nato defeat with the quote: page 53 ("Operation Arrow was limited to one sector, and even so, it was not a success. A US intelligence official, in fact, claimed the KLA was “creamed.” The KLA forces came under heavy Serb artillery fire, and while some areas changed hands, no major gains were claimed by the KLA.")
I hope you can see what the problem here is since this myth describes not a Yugoslav victory but no win for the KLA/Nato side.
To be honest this was probably the worst source you could choose. It is funny that the only NOT myth part (the introduction) describes a KLA/Nato victory:Operation Allied Force was a hardwon success for NATO
Second source [2]
This article is in Croatian, but English translation is given. The translation doesn't mention any defeat. I asked you to show me a quote but you acted ignorant. I would still recommend you to use neutral English sources since other languages especially in the Balkans always take a side and are harder to proof.
Third source [3]
Since you didn't provide a link i even looked it up by myself. Page 199 Note 35: Mentions no KLA/Nato defeat. I once again asked you show me anything where a defeat is mentioned. If the book says quote:.. was not a success, it doesn't mean that the KLA/Nato was defeated.
Fourth source [4]
Quotation:The major KLA offensive (code-named Operation Arrow) launched in late May in the Mount Pastrik area of southwestern Kosovo met with little if any success. Even after heavy NATO bombing of suspected VJ defensive positions, KLA forces were able to penetrate only a few miles into Kosovo during two weeks of fighting.
Here we got the same situation as in the third source. You should learn what a defeat is.
My suggestion: If you can't show us any reliable source which shows us a Yugoslav victory or a KLA/Nato defeat don't change this part in the article. Even if you got any RS talk it first out on the talkpage.
Since the result of the battle is a dispute i suggest keeping the part:Kumanovo Treaty, End of the Kosovo war as the best version. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 17:42, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
You are accusing me of "balatantly false editing" even though I didn't edit anything but just was reverting your claim of a KLA/Nato defeat that you tried to back up with sources which tell us a whole other story. The full block of this page only happened since I had to revert false claims even though I was asking which part of your sources show us a KLA/Nato defeat, which of course was ignored with the words "read carefully". I offered you to discuss it on the talk page wich you obviously rejected, so don't play the 'You don't want to seek an honest consensus' card. You also beeing dishonest since you are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say like :"is Croatian scholar and your claim that he somehow is not neutral is funny." even though I said "This article is in Croatian, but English translation is given. The translation doesn't mention any defeat. I asked you to show me a quote but you acted ignorant. I would still recommend you to use neutral English sources since other languages especially in the Balkans always take a side and are harder to proof." in which I was not reffering to that Croatian source, but to non English sources especially from the Balkans in general.
I think that you are false interpreting some words like defeat in the way you like the most. By your logic a KLA/Nato defeat is not achieved either since the Yugoslav army couldn't prevent territory losses. The KLA goal in the first place was breaking through the border, eliminate Yugoslav troops and establish supply corridors. Even though in this battle the KLA did not get deep into the occupied territory, it still achieved its goal since the Yugoslav troops lost control over the border. Even though this was the last major battle in the Kosovo War you were right in the point that this battle didn't directly affect the signing of the Treaty of Kumanovo. Since no side can really claim a defeat I think that a stalemate in this part is an honest and the best solution, and it's accepted by other Serbian editors too. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 21:34, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Sorry @Crazydude1912 but I simply do not see any arguments presented from your side, just personal opinions and analysis, which is of little interest for the Wiki. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:19, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
We were clearly talking about the result section. Your are accusing me of blatantly false editing by linking reverts I did for the casualties section. This just shows your dishonest work since you try to create an image of me of an false editing editor with reverts I have done that in the first place don't have anything to do with this topic. I am going to tell you again that I'm not refusing your sources just because I tell you that your sources poorly back up the theory of a KLA/NATO defeat. "I have put forward enough sources that back my edits"-> No you didn't. Your sources decribe a stalemate. The only source you did show us that mentions a defeat is a Croation source that has to be first translated. On the other hand I can show you sources that clearly talk about a stalemate: [5] [6]
You also said:"KLA failed to achieve any of its objectives and NATO failed to achieve its objective of eliminating large number of Yugoslav troops in this battle." This was never and could never be a goal of Nato, killing a large number of troops. The main goal of Nato was the destruction of abilities to slows down the mass killing of Albanians. [7] Nato with the help of the KLA was very successfull in that point. [8]
We are talking about the Battle of Pashtrik which was one part of the Operation Arrow. The long term goal of Operation Arrow was penetrating deep into the center of Kosovo which was quite exaggerated and not achievable in the short term. With the not achieved goals of long term Operation Arrow you are claiming a defeat of KLA/Nato in the area of Mount Pashtrik.
The only real result for this article, which was also the longtime stable version, is a stalemate. The Yugoslav army was never able to recapture the whole gains of the KLA/Nato at the Mount Pashtrik.
References
{{
citation}}
: |issue=
has extra text (
help); |volume=
has extra text (
help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link)
... the UCK offensive had "stalled"
successfully stalled
...to reduce the ability of the Serbian military...
During the last weeks NATO was able to eliminate twice as many tanks...
{{
cite book}}
: line feed character in |title=
at position 30 (
help)
"Maybe Yugoslavs did not capture back few square feet of a mountain slope but they sure did stop KLA from meeting any of its objectives and they did that while inflicting heavy losses." Sounds like a stalemate. I hope that you are aware of that this page will be blocked again if you edit this article based on your interpretation and point of view without reaching a consensus. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 10:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I did change it back since I revertet his edit too. I have shown enough sources that show us a stalemate even more than you show us a KLA/NATO defeat. So why should we take your version? Crazydude1912 ( talk) 11:27, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Your version is backed up by a Croatian source only. 4 more sources don't even talk about a defeat but describe even more a stalemate. The war ended before the battle was over. No side met any its objectives. Where is it mentioned that the KLA was fully driven out? Crazydude1912 ( talk) 12:42, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
"Other sources you are mentioning are not describing stalemate, again, that is your interpretation" No it is not my interpretation but clearly mentioned in my sources.
"Their objective was to defend the border and they did that." Since the Yugoslav army lost control over it i suggest that it did fail its objective.
I'm going to assume that this won't convince you. Sombody completely neutral should have a look over this discussion. I see that you don't have arguments anymore. But still if there is no consensus then there is no change. Changing the article to your preferred version like you did again won't solve anything. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 14:11, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
In lieu of handing out blocks for WP:3RR violations and edit warring, I've fullY protected the page for three days. Hammer out your differences here and come to a consensus please. If a consensus is reached prior to the block expiring, you can request that the page be unprotected at WP:RFPP.-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 18:59, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
It's obvious that 1400 couldn't have possibly died out of a total force of 1200 people and the source which makes this claim is not reliable. The total numbers about Operation Arrow in Hockenos, Paul (2003). Homeland Calling: Exile Patriotism & the Balkan Wars. Cornell University Press. ISBN 0801441587. don't even come close to the figures which are being discussed by the involved editors.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Details of the UCK units involved in 'Arrow' remain unclear, including the actual number of Kosovar combatants. Albanian television reported on 2 June that the 'Ismet Jashari Kumanova 121st Brigade and 123rd Brigade in the 'Pastrik Operational Zone' were engaging Yugoslav forces, but offered nothing more specific. Most reports indicate that up to 4,000 insurgents were involved in the offensive, while some have as few as 250 insurgents engaging the Yugoslav army. General Wesley Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, in his recent account of the war, puts the number between 1,800 and 2,000from The battle for mount Pastrik: A preliminary study-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 14:35, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
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Revert article back to its sourced version
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Battle_of_Pa%C5%A1trik&oldid=968300352 Peervalaa ( talk) 09:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
It's not a problem to add some sources to this current stable version. Instead of reverting it to a poorly sourced out version. Crazydude1912 ( talk) 10:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Peervalaa: what do you think about this version? :
Crazydude1912 ( talk) 14:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
The source (Hockenos, Paul (2003). Homeland Calling: Exile Patriotism & the Balkan Wars. Cornell University Press. pp. 238–239. ISBN 0-8014-4158-7.) is quite explicit that it's actually the 121st Brigade. @ Adhurim Jakupi: is there a reason you reverted my edit? Here's the diff. Also, I tried to talk to you in your Talk page about similar behavior in the Battle of Košare article, and you haven't answered.-- Aleksamil ( talk) 00:38, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think this is corroborated by the sources provided in this article. @ Adhurim Jakupi: do you have any sources to back that up? Also @ Sadko: you're both close to breaking WP:3RR, as a more experienced user you should try to avoid this WP:EDITWAR. Adhurim doesn't seem to be responding to me, how do you propose we can deal with the edit war here (and the simultaneous one in the Battle of Košare article)? -- Aleksamil ( talk) 10:18, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
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93.87.128.3 ( talk) 20:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)Tactical defeat of the KLA and NATO.
@ Durraz0: Thank you for the article's expansion. I did some cleanup. Norway which has been added as a supporting force in the battle, seems to have assisted via the donation of a field hospital for wounded combatants and Albania provided artillery support. The average reader will not go into details and might think that they participated with active troops. I think that their involvement should be discussed via more specific terms on the infobox.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:59, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
I have contributed a few updates to the page as I could see some errors and conflicting information.
1. Casualties: Serbian casualties were updated to (25 dead, 126 injured). I translated (Google translate) the referenced article in question and the previous statistics refer to losses sustained in the entire region from an unspecified time frame. The losses from this specific battle are listed as (25 dead, 126 injured). In addition, according to the Serbian Wikipedia page, 500 KLA troops were wounded. This uses the same reference as the current English Wikipedia page which states that 200 were wounded. This needs clarification. 2. Strength: The KLA figures are derived from the Albanian version of this page with no references attached. Given that this battle was a major offensive, it is impossible that 150 soldiers were initially put into action. Forage (2001) states that General Wesley Clark puts figures at around 1,800-2000. In addition, Task Force Hawk and the Albanian 2nd army were added, as stated in Forage (2001). 3. The sentence:
"Albanian refugees from Gorozup, Milaj, Gjonaj and Planeja at the slopes of Mount Paštrik reported that they had been beaten, killed and forcefully driven out of their villages by Yugoslav army, police and paramilitaries..."
uses a reference from April 1999. A better reference post conflict (June, 1999) would be better.
4. The sentence:
"Only around 250 KLA insurgents actually saw combat during the operation..."
Incorrectly states that the referenced author in question has come to this conclusion. This is false as the entire narrative states:
"Most reports indicate that up to 4,000 insurgents were involved in the offensive, while some have as few as 250 insurgents engaging the Yugoslav army."
The author of this article highlights that this is a disputed fact and provides no final consensus in the article. Further clarification is needed.
In all, great article. ElderZamzam ( talk) 07:44, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public,60 Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.'61 In a speech on 12 August, 2000, General Lazarevic also conceded that 'we lost many heroes, who laid down their lives at Pastrik, Planeja, Cicavica, Gorozup, Kosare, Dulj, Reljan and other battlefields-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:08, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Though NATO's battle damage assessment of these strikes has not been made public, Colonel Delic acknowledged suffering many casualties in the area. After President Milosevic awarded the 549th the National Hero Medal on 16 June 1999, 'for heroic achievements in the defence of [Yugoslav] territorial integrity and sovereignty', Delic commented that his troops had been under constant bombardment: 'Our positions resembled the surface of the moon from all the bombs we could not even count. Some 100 troops a day were incapacitated but new ones came to replace them.'-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 17:03, 5 July 2021 (UTC)
@ ElderZamzam: can you quote where in the interview of Agim Sylejmani it is claimed that the Albanian army was one of the combatants in the battle of Pashtrik? An interview is not a good source for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims, but before I remove it - as a native speaker of Albanian - I want to know from which part of the interview you inferred the content of your edit.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 19:35, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Dihet mirëfilli se pjesa veriore e Shqipërisë, gjegjësisht zona kufitare ku ishin ngritur qendrat stërvitore të UҪK-së dhe bëheshin përgatitjet për frontin e Koshares dhe të Pashtrikut në kuadër të operacionit “Shigjeta”, ishte nën përgjegjësinë ushtarake të Divizionit të Kukësit në krye me Gjeneral Kudusi Lama. A mund të na thoni konkretisht, cili ishte roli i Gjeneral Kudusi Lamës me Divizionin e Kukësit, në përgatitjen logjistike për Operacionin “Shigjeta”?. To which he responds
Divizioni i Kukësit dhe gjeneral Kudusi Lama ishin bartësit kryesor të luftës që zhvillohej në gjithë atë front të gjerë, aq sa ishte edhe vija kufitare Shqipëri-Kosovë. Ne kishim djem e vajza të gatshëm të jepnin edhe jetën e tyre për lirinë e Kosovës, por pa Divizionin e Kukësit, e sidomos të vetë gjeneral Kudusi Lama dhe gjithë stafit të tij ushtarak, as që mund të imagjinohet lufta e UÇK-së në kufi me Kosovën, ku ishin të përqëndruara njësitë elite artilerike e tankiste të ushtrisë serbe të shoqëruara nga njësitë paramilitare serbe dhe mercenare ruse. Kundër këtyre forcave të mëdha në numër dhe të paisura me armët më moderne të kohës nuk mjaftonte vetëm vullneti për të luftuar, por duheshin edhe mjetet përkatëse për të përballuar armikun shumëfish më të madh në numër dhe të paisur.The fact that you have already planned to remove the content without a valid discussion shows that you have no interest in engaging in any sort of constructive dialogue to advance this page. ElderZamzam ( talk) 22:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)