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Mit Umlaut oder ohne Umlaut? -- MacRusgail 19:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Mit Umlaut: ü !
Mit umlaut indeed! Should this page not be moved to Baron Münchhausen? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ampersand777 ( talk • contribs).
Nobody has commented on this for a week and a half; I'm gonna move it Amp 19:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It appears that all three accepted (?) spellings are in use throughout this article: Münchhausen, Munchhausen, Munchausen. Where titles of literary works etc. are being referenced, the spelling appropriate to the work in question should of course be used, but the article's narrative itself should choose one spelling and stick to it. Given the umlaut-related discussion above, I would guess that "Münchhausen" should be the spelling of choice. JanRu ( talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a small summary of this use of Münchhausen's name (under the heading of "Philosophy"), similar to what was done with Münchhausen Syndrome in Psychology. JanRu ( talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know why Robin Williams is credited as Ray D. Tutto in this film......I notice at IMDB he has used several names in film.... has he used this name in other films? R. Silver 25 July 2007
Sections tagged for no sourcing for nearly a year. Please feel free to reincorporate into article with appropriate sourcing! Doniago ( talk) 19:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Life
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---|---|---|
==Life==
Born in Bodenwerder, Electorate of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Münchhausen was page to Anthony Ulrich II of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, and moved with his employer to the Russian Empire in 1737/38. He followed Anthony Ulrich as a page during the Russo-Turkish War (1735–1739). In 1737 he attended the siege of Turkish Fortress of Ochakiv. He was named a cornet in the Russian cavalry regiment ”Brunswick- Cuirassiers“ when Anthony Ulrich became Russian generalissimo in 1739. The next year, he was promoted to lieutenant. He was stationed in Riga, but participated in two campaigns against the Swedes in 1740 and 1741. When Anthony Ulrich was imprisoned in 1741, Münchhausen remained in the service of the Russian military. In 1750, he was named a Rittmeister, a cavalry captain. In 1744, he married Jacobine von Dunten at Pernigel ( Latvian: Liepupe) near Dunteshof ( Latvian: Dunte) in Livonia. After his retirement, he lived with his wife at his manor in Bodenwerder until her death in 1790. Here, he acquired a reputation for his witty and exaggerated tales; at the same time, he was considered an honest man in business affairs. Münchhausen remarried in 1794; this marriage ended in a contested, ruinous divorce. Münchhausen died childless in 1797. |
Fandom
|
---|
==Fandom==
There is a club "Munchhausen's Grandchildren" (Внучата Мюнхаузена) in Kaliningrad, Russia. With the help of its sister city Bodenwerder, the birthplace of the Baron, the club amassed a number of "historical proofs" of presence of the Baron in Königsberg: an ancient silver thaler "returned" to Kaliningrad by Bodenwerder's mayor as a debt for a mug of beer drunk by Munchhausen, Order of Saint Anna issued to the Baron by Paul I of Russia for his "faultless service", and the skeleton of the whale in whose belly the Baron was entrapped for a while. On 18 June 2005 there was the grand opening of a monument of the Baron, which was presented to Kaliningrad by Bodenwerder. The monument portrays the Baron's cannonball ride. A similar monument of the Baron is also installed in his city of birth, as well as a fountain of Munchhausen sitting on the front half of his horse, who is drinking from a trough - with the water falling to the ground behind. An international tour over the places visited by Baron Munchhausen is established as a joint venture of Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, and Kaliningrad. |
(I'm not very familiar with the wiki editing, so I beg you pardon for possible mistakes in the formatting.)
I just want to point out that the little passage about the Grimm's Fairy Tales Adaption of Munchhausen seems to be nonsense, because "the six"-story is - besides being very similar to Munchhausen (and several stories originated elsewhere) - just also an original Grimm's story. So Munchhausen isn't left out for any other reason than the fact that he doesn't appear in the Grimm-version.
you can look it up here in the German Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sechse_kommen_durch_die_ganze_Welt#Herkunft
91.51.203.46 ( talk) 20:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
This portrait looks very much alike Napoleon III. Sketched in 1866 this was maybe some political irony? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.242.105 ( talk) 20:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
This topic is of considerable literary importance, and is worth a lot of work, but I'm far from certain that "Baron Münchhausen" is an accurate name for it. As far as I can tell from the writeup and related links, we're actually dealing with two people here:
With that spelling issue in mind, the article name "Baron Münchhausen" seems inaccurate, or at least misleading. Thoughts?-- Lemuellio ( talk) 20:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Was Münchhausen a case of pseudologia fantastica? Should we mention this in the Münchhausen article? Notice that Münchhausen is mentioned in the pseudologia fantastica article... Kintaro ( talk) 17:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
There was a box at the top saying that the article did not conform to wikipedia's quality standards, so I went ahead and trimmed the article. I removed excessively flowery language, which made the article seem derived from a sensationalizing book about the Baron. And I removed excess detail, which also makes the article seem derived from some detailed biography about the Baron. Such information would be more interesting for someone looking to dive more deeply into his history, but its distracting in this encyclopedic context.
In particular, here's some explanations for edits I made:
I would like to see more content with some examples of the tall tales that are attributed to Munchausen. I've combed through the article to edit it and make it more concise, and yet I still have no idea about what kind of stories he told or the nature of any of his adaptations. -- Philosophistry ( talk) 08:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
There was a comedy radio show in the 1940s based loosely on the Baron. My high school English teacher in the 1950s would sometimes quote from it when anyone questioned one of HER stories, "Vas you dere, Charlie?" See, e.g., http://www.myoldradio.com/old-radio-episodes/baron-munchausen-vas-you-dere-sharlie-clip/1 DABbio ( talk) 11:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
He wrote a six volume work entitled Der Hausvatter (Hanover 1765) online here: https://archive.org/details/derhausvater06mn. A section on microscopy (of fungal infections of wheat/barley) is highly praised by Linnaeus in a dissertation Mundus Invisibilis (Amoenitates academicae vol. 7 395ff. online at http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/botanik/periodical/pageview/4611200). The whole 6 volume work is said by Linnaeus to be about "Oeconomia". I don't know any more about it but if his scientific work was highly regarded by Linnaeus it surely merits dealing with.
See also Marc Ratcliff: The Quest for the Invisible: Microscopy in the Enlightenment 2009 231. R says that M corresponded with Linn.
Northutsire ( talk) 20:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Baron Münchhausen →
Baron Munchausen – This article is about two people: a fictional character called Baron Munchausen, and a real-life nobleman named Hieronymus Karl Friedrich, Freiherr von Münchhausen. I think it's appropriate to handle both figures on one page (take a look at the
Fictionalization and
Fictional character sections to see how the two are connected/different), but it inevitably raises the question of what to call the article.
It's beyond reasonable doubt that the fictional Baron is notable by Wikipedia standards: plenty of significant coverage in subject-independent reliable sources. The real Baron is probably notable as well, but he's predominantly known for being the inspiration for his fictional counterpart. And, of the two, the fictional one has pretty clearly gotten more attention: Special:WhatLinksHere/Baron_Münchhausen suggests that most references in the English Wikipedia are specifically to the fictional Baron. Given those circumstances, to name the article after the real Baron would make it something resembling a WP:Coatrack: the article would seem to be about a real person, but most of the focus would inevitably fall on his more famous fictional counterpart.
So, in accordance with the WP:UCRN policy, and following the precedent set by most paper encyclopedias (including the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia), I strongly recommend that we name this page after the fictional character, using the standard and recognizable English-language spelling: Baron Munchausen. The historical figure's name can still be a redirect, of course (and will be very useful as such, since his biography will remain on the page). Lemuellio ( talk) 22:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Maunus ( talk · contribs) 03:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I will review this article, which I can say from the outset looks excellent and certainly in no danger of quick failing.
·maunus ·
snunɐɯ·
03:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Assessment:
LB Namier "The Structure of Politics at the Accession of George III" indicates (second edition pp 189, 191, and elsewhere in the same volume that the Hanoverian Resident in London late in the reign of George II was a Baron Philip Adolph von Munchausen who between July and October 1760 received from the Treasury the exceptional sum of £79.490:15s and fivepence three farthings for"his late Majesty's special service". No doubt he too would have had some remarkable tales to tell. Perhaps he should be exposed to disambiguation , at least, since I genuinely turned to Wikipedia in the hope that the Treasury was funding the subject of the article. No such luck, but one is still curious. Delahays ( talk) 18:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
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Is there a native Germanophone who could confirm or correct the pronunciation guide in the lede? Since the root of the surname is Münch, and that city is roughly pronounced "moonk", rather than the "munch" given in the guide, I doubt that the Anglocentric rendering of "munch" is correct. And before anyone points out that this wiki is about the fictional character, I would ask if the book (which was, after all, the source for the films) actually states the preferred pronunciation, or if Hollywood imposed its own (possibly incorrect) pronunciation upon the character. Bricology ( talk) 13:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I seem to recall in the 1980s that Paderborn's local brewery used a Baron Munchhausen logo of him on a cannon ball (my parents were stationed there back in the day). Gerdesj ( talk) 18:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
In the german wiki it is a NON-FICTIONAL, real living person!
Born 11. May 1720 in Bodenwerder; died 22. February in Bodenwerder, son of a noble man from Braunschweig-Lüneburg.
And please move to "Baron Münchhausen" -- 193.196.128.254 ( talk) 11:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
In the article, it is stated as fact that Raspe authored the anonymous (German) anecdotes in the "Vademecum für lustige Leute". In the German wikipedia page, it is stated that the authorship is often attributed to the publisher August Mylius, but that this cannot be taken for certain since his name is not on the title page.
There is a reference to the book by David Blamires, which indeed states that the authors of the German and English text were established to be the same. He refers as a source to a book by Schweizer which I do not have access to. It would be useful to know how it was established that Raspe was the author of the German text, and whether there is indeed concensus about this. If this is the case, then presumably it should be stated on the German wikipedia page also, as currently I am left puzzled. Lasse ( talk) 15:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
I can understand the inability to type-set ü, at least then, but I don't see the inability to correct the missing H site-wide now. It seems much too provincial for an English-language online encyclopedia, even beyond required reading lists in schools for youngsters to find it. The disambiguation for the surname and place is a bit messy, don't you agree? Anyway, this is my suggestion to improve this article. Cheers.
Henrik Erlandsson 23:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC) Henrik Erlandsson 23:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by HenrikErlandsson ( talk o contribs)
Given that Baron Munchausen's Narrative of his Marvellous Travels and Campaigns in Russia is a stub and a significant portion of this article covers Raspe's work, shouldn't that article be merged with Baron Munchausen? Paintflakes ( talk) 01:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Munchasan Kathakal has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 5 § Munchasan Kathakal until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
13:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Baron Munchausen is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 29, 2016. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Baron Munchausen article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
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|
Mit Umlaut oder ohne Umlaut? -- MacRusgail 19:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Mit Umlaut: ü !
Mit umlaut indeed! Should this page not be moved to Baron Münchhausen? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ampersand777 ( talk • contribs).
Nobody has commented on this for a week and a half; I'm gonna move it Amp 19:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
It appears that all three accepted (?) spellings are in use throughout this article: Münchhausen, Munchhausen, Munchausen. Where titles of literary works etc. are being referenced, the spelling appropriate to the work in question should of course be used, but the article's narrative itself should choose one spelling and stick to it. Given the umlaut-related discussion above, I would guess that "Münchhausen" should be the spelling of choice. JanRu ( talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a small summary of this use of Münchhausen's name (under the heading of "Philosophy"), similar to what was done with Münchhausen Syndrome in Psychology. JanRu ( talk) 22:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone know why Robin Williams is credited as Ray D. Tutto in this film......I notice at IMDB he has used several names in film.... has he used this name in other films? R. Silver 25 July 2007
Sections tagged for no sourcing for nearly a year. Please feel free to reincorporate into article with appropriate sourcing! Doniago ( talk) 19:23, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Life
| ||
---|---|---|
==Life==
Born in Bodenwerder, Electorate of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Münchhausen was page to Anthony Ulrich II of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, and moved with his employer to the Russian Empire in 1737/38. He followed Anthony Ulrich as a page during the Russo-Turkish War (1735–1739). In 1737 he attended the siege of Turkish Fortress of Ochakiv. He was named a cornet in the Russian cavalry regiment ”Brunswick- Cuirassiers“ when Anthony Ulrich became Russian generalissimo in 1739. The next year, he was promoted to lieutenant. He was stationed in Riga, but participated in two campaigns against the Swedes in 1740 and 1741. When Anthony Ulrich was imprisoned in 1741, Münchhausen remained in the service of the Russian military. In 1750, he was named a Rittmeister, a cavalry captain. In 1744, he married Jacobine von Dunten at Pernigel ( Latvian: Liepupe) near Dunteshof ( Latvian: Dunte) in Livonia. After his retirement, he lived with his wife at his manor in Bodenwerder until her death in 1790. Here, he acquired a reputation for his witty and exaggerated tales; at the same time, he was considered an honest man in business affairs. Münchhausen remarried in 1794; this marriage ended in a contested, ruinous divorce. Münchhausen died childless in 1797. |
Fandom
|
---|
==Fandom==
There is a club "Munchhausen's Grandchildren" (Внучата Мюнхаузена) in Kaliningrad, Russia. With the help of its sister city Bodenwerder, the birthplace of the Baron, the club amassed a number of "historical proofs" of presence of the Baron in Königsberg: an ancient silver thaler "returned" to Kaliningrad by Bodenwerder's mayor as a debt for a mug of beer drunk by Munchhausen, Order of Saint Anna issued to the Baron by Paul I of Russia for his "faultless service", and the skeleton of the whale in whose belly the Baron was entrapped for a while. On 18 June 2005 there was the grand opening of a monument of the Baron, which was presented to Kaliningrad by Bodenwerder. The monument portrays the Baron's cannonball ride. A similar monument of the Baron is also installed in his city of birth, as well as a fountain of Munchhausen sitting on the front half of his horse, who is drinking from a trough - with the water falling to the ground behind. An international tour over the places visited by Baron Munchhausen is established as a joint venture of Germany, Lithuania, Latvia, and Kaliningrad. |
(I'm not very familiar with the wiki editing, so I beg you pardon for possible mistakes in the formatting.)
I just want to point out that the little passage about the Grimm's Fairy Tales Adaption of Munchhausen seems to be nonsense, because "the six"-story is - besides being very similar to Munchhausen (and several stories originated elsewhere) - just also an original Grimm's story. So Munchhausen isn't left out for any other reason than the fact that he doesn't appear in the Grimm-version.
you can look it up here in the German Wikipedia:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sechse_kommen_durch_die_ganze_Welt#Herkunft
91.51.203.46 ( talk) 20:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
This portrait looks very much alike Napoleon III. Sketched in 1866 this was maybe some political irony? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.242.105 ( talk) 20:08, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
This topic is of considerable literary importance, and is worth a lot of work, but I'm far from certain that "Baron Münchhausen" is an accurate name for it. As far as I can tell from the writeup and related links, we're actually dealing with two people here:
With that spelling issue in mind, the article name "Baron Münchhausen" seems inaccurate, or at least misleading. Thoughts?-- Lemuellio ( talk) 20:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Was Münchhausen a case of pseudologia fantastica? Should we mention this in the Münchhausen article? Notice that Münchhausen is mentioned in the pseudologia fantastica article... Kintaro ( talk) 17:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
There was a box at the top saying that the article did not conform to wikipedia's quality standards, so I went ahead and trimmed the article. I removed excessively flowery language, which made the article seem derived from a sensationalizing book about the Baron. And I removed excess detail, which also makes the article seem derived from some detailed biography about the Baron. Such information would be more interesting for someone looking to dive more deeply into his history, but its distracting in this encyclopedic context.
In particular, here's some explanations for edits I made:
I would like to see more content with some examples of the tall tales that are attributed to Munchausen. I've combed through the article to edit it and make it more concise, and yet I still have no idea about what kind of stories he told or the nature of any of his adaptations. -- Philosophistry ( talk) 08:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
There was a comedy radio show in the 1940s based loosely on the Baron. My high school English teacher in the 1950s would sometimes quote from it when anyone questioned one of HER stories, "Vas you dere, Charlie?" See, e.g., http://www.myoldradio.com/old-radio-episodes/baron-munchausen-vas-you-dere-sharlie-clip/1 DABbio ( talk) 11:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
He wrote a six volume work entitled Der Hausvatter (Hanover 1765) online here: https://archive.org/details/derhausvater06mn. A section on microscopy (of fungal infections of wheat/barley) is highly praised by Linnaeus in a dissertation Mundus Invisibilis (Amoenitates academicae vol. 7 395ff. online at http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/botanik/periodical/pageview/4611200). The whole 6 volume work is said by Linnaeus to be about "Oeconomia". I don't know any more about it but if his scientific work was highly regarded by Linnaeus it surely merits dealing with.
See also Marc Ratcliff: The Quest for the Invisible: Microscopy in the Enlightenment 2009 231. R says that M corresponded with Linn.
Northutsire ( talk) 20:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Baron Münchhausen →
Baron Munchausen – This article is about two people: a fictional character called Baron Munchausen, and a real-life nobleman named Hieronymus Karl Friedrich, Freiherr von Münchhausen. I think it's appropriate to handle both figures on one page (take a look at the
Fictionalization and
Fictional character sections to see how the two are connected/different), but it inevitably raises the question of what to call the article.
It's beyond reasonable doubt that the fictional Baron is notable by Wikipedia standards: plenty of significant coverage in subject-independent reliable sources. The real Baron is probably notable as well, but he's predominantly known for being the inspiration for his fictional counterpart. And, of the two, the fictional one has pretty clearly gotten more attention: Special:WhatLinksHere/Baron_Münchhausen suggests that most references in the English Wikipedia are specifically to the fictional Baron. Given those circumstances, to name the article after the real Baron would make it something resembling a WP:Coatrack: the article would seem to be about a real person, but most of the focus would inevitably fall on his more famous fictional counterpart.
So, in accordance with the WP:UCRN policy, and following the precedent set by most paper encyclopedias (including the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia), I strongly recommend that we name this page after the fictional character, using the standard and recognizable English-language spelling: Baron Munchausen. The historical figure's name can still be a redirect, of course (and will be very useful as such, since his biography will remain on the page). Lemuellio ( talk) 22:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Maunus ( talk · contribs) 03:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
I will review this article, which I can say from the outset looks excellent and certainly in no danger of quick failing.
·maunus ·
snunɐɯ·
03:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Assessment:
LB Namier "The Structure of Politics at the Accession of George III" indicates (second edition pp 189, 191, and elsewhere in the same volume that the Hanoverian Resident in London late in the reign of George II was a Baron Philip Adolph von Munchausen who between July and October 1760 received from the Treasury the exceptional sum of £79.490:15s and fivepence three farthings for"his late Majesty's special service". No doubt he too would have had some remarkable tales to tell. Perhaps he should be exposed to disambiguation , at least, since I genuinely turned to Wikipedia in the hope that the Treasury was funding the subject of the article. No such luck, but one is still curious. Delahays ( talk) 18:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
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Is there a native Germanophone who could confirm or correct the pronunciation guide in the lede? Since the root of the surname is Münch, and that city is roughly pronounced "moonk", rather than the "munch" given in the guide, I doubt that the Anglocentric rendering of "munch" is correct. And before anyone points out that this wiki is about the fictional character, I would ask if the book (which was, after all, the source for the films) actually states the preferred pronunciation, or if Hollywood imposed its own (possibly incorrect) pronunciation upon the character. Bricology ( talk) 13:24, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I seem to recall in the 1980s that Paderborn's local brewery used a Baron Munchhausen logo of him on a cannon ball (my parents were stationed there back in the day). Gerdesj ( talk) 18:59, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
In the german wiki it is a NON-FICTIONAL, real living person!
Born 11. May 1720 in Bodenwerder; died 22. February in Bodenwerder, son of a noble man from Braunschweig-Lüneburg.
And please move to "Baron Münchhausen" -- 193.196.128.254 ( talk) 11:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
In the article, it is stated as fact that Raspe authored the anonymous (German) anecdotes in the "Vademecum für lustige Leute". In the German wikipedia page, it is stated that the authorship is often attributed to the publisher August Mylius, but that this cannot be taken for certain since his name is not on the title page.
There is a reference to the book by David Blamires, which indeed states that the authors of the German and English text were established to be the same. He refers as a source to a book by Schweizer which I do not have access to. It would be useful to know how it was established that Raspe was the author of the German text, and whether there is indeed concensus about this. If this is the case, then presumably it should be stated on the German wikipedia page also, as currently I am left puzzled. Lasse ( talk) 15:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
I can understand the inability to type-set ü, at least then, but I don't see the inability to correct the missing H site-wide now. It seems much too provincial for an English-language online encyclopedia, even beyond required reading lists in schools for youngsters to find it. The disambiguation for the surname and place is a bit messy, don't you agree? Anyway, this is my suggestion to improve this article. Cheers.
Henrik Erlandsson 23:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC) Henrik Erlandsson 23:05, 13 April 2023 (UTC) -- Preceding unsigned comment added by HenrikErlandsson ( talk o contribs)
Given that Baron Munchausen's Narrative of his Marvellous Travels and Campaigns in Russia is a stub and a significant portion of this article covers Raspe's work, shouldn't that article be merged with Baron Munchausen? Paintflakes ( talk) 01:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The redirect
Munchasan Kathakal has been listed at
redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the
redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at
Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 5 § Munchasan Kathakal until a consensus is reached.
Steel1943 (
talk)
13:19, 5 March 2024 (UTC)