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An obvious point that many partisan editors seems to fail to understand (or selectively ignores anyway), is that some content that was biographically significant in an article about an IL State Senator is simply not notable for inclusion in the main biography of the POTUS. Of course, as well the article presumably has achieved better focus and writing quality over time also. This article is 23k words of readable prose (about 170k total bytes, including non-main content), which is pretty much the maximum proper length of a WP article, if not longer (see WP:SIZE, WP:SPLIT, and WP:SUMMARY). Moreover, it has been this same approximate length (of readable text, the footnotes have grown quite a lot) for at least 4 years.
Saying that some content is relevant (whether included years ago or brand new) needs to be framed as "is more important than some content currently in the article. If we add something on, say, Obama's childhood friendships, we need to take out, e.g. his Nobel Prize to make room for it. Today's polling numbers, or some minor point about an early campaign, are unlikely to reach that "more important" threshold (even if the facts are perfectly true, and perfectly well supported by WP:RS). If someone wants to make an argument to include dramatically new content (or equally, recirculated very old content), they need to show why this content is more important than something we have in the article now, and ideally also take out what they are replacing. That argument is not necessarily impossible, but to pretend it need not be made is dishonest and destructive. LotLE× talk 19:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
My above statement is actually far too generous to those proposing additions. In fact, looking more closely this article is really too long now. It is true that some a good chunk of the growth is in footnotes, which is not so much harmful. However, the article itself has also been growing, and growing too fast and recently. Looking over a couple years of edits, the article has usually always been below 140k bytes, and very often below 130k, until the last few months. Now it has grown quite excessively to 170k. This screams out to me that we desperately need another refactoring pass to get better WP:SUMMARY style... and we need it soon. LotLE× talk 19:25, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
proposer is topic banned for one month |
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Currently Mentioned:
Formerly Mentioned, Now Removed:
Minor Issues:
Furthermore, despite all the discussion on the talk page in the past over inclusion of such material, when such critical material is mentioned, it is often done so without reference of the prominent media coverage at the time. What is more, it appeared that negative scandals or mention of controversial events were being steadily pushed farther and farther down the page as 2008 wore on, regardless of the event's sourcing and prominence in the news. This seems a clear example of undue weight. For example, the current article mentions prominently at the top that Obama claimed his drug use was his greatest moral failure (possible leading) and mentions a 1993 occurrence where he was named to Crain's Small Busines "Forty Under 40". However, more words are spent on that one reference than the prominent 2004 senate campaign between Keyes and Obama, or the Public Financing scandal which wore on for months during the 2008 elections - both of which get mentioned much lower, and negligibly. The article also appeared to grow sizeably during the 2008 general election, even as the controversies were being removed from the article. Is it possible more info was being added at the top to hide what few mentions of controversy remained? (Seeing as they've been getting mentioned as minimally as possible). -- Jzyehoshua ( talk) 20:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
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Add "Politician" to the "Occupation" section.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew Ryan Lewis ( talk) 18:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Could you point out to me what is the reason that there is only one occurence of the word "terror" in the article? Just to remind you that there is an ongoing war on terrorism both in Iraq and in Afghanistan lead by Obama. For a comparison: G.W.Bush's article contains 24 times the terror word. For a foreign people, like me, reading the article one could have an idea, that there is no terror threat in US. TomasGerbs ( talk) 00:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Just to satisfy the editor: terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror. There are 24 occurrences just to give you a warm feeling. On a slightly more serious note, if you have an actual edit proposal, make it! Articles aren't some formal exercise in using some random word a certain number of times (shockingly, BTW, this article uses 'news' 68 times, and yet it is only mentioned twice in George W. Bush... clearly an attempt to cover up the fact Bush was often in the news). If you have an actual useful and relevant sentence that uses the word 'terror', suggest it for addition. Otherwise, perhaps we should close this thread. LotLE× talk 01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
FWIW, just because I am a geek, I decided to look at actual word counts:
% histogram GB.txt | grep 'terror' | egrep -v '(url)|(cite)|(ref)' terrorist 6 terrorists 4 terrorism 1 terror 1 counterterrorism 1 % histogram BO.txt | grep 'terror' | egrep -v '(url)|(cite)|(ref)' terrorism 2
I don't want to explain the tools too deeply. The last bit is just to ignore somewhat non-relevant occurrences like 'weburlhttpwwwguardiancoukworldfebindiaterrorismtitleCIA', which isn't really a use of 'terror' in a real way. The actual ratio of this arbitrary morpheme is 13:2, not 24:1. LotLE× talk 01:40, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The Afghan and Iraq wars both have there own titled sections of the article. How does adding a single sentence somewhere else give them better coverage here than they already have? -- OuroborosCobra ( talk) 03:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The first time in the article that happens we can read about the Iraq war is on the 8-th page (on a tft monitor), the same happens in the first page of Bush's article. But we can obtain more important informations while we read the Obama's article, like
We know every pointless idiotic datas Obama's family, but not know that he leads two wars. TomasGerbs ( talk) 08:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Only this artcile's title should be also good for the article, for reference: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2009/12/29/2009-12-29_deadliest_year_for_us_troops_on_afghan_duty_311_killed_in_2009_up_from_155_in_20.html TomasGerbs ( talk) 10:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Despite the unhelpful start by the editor who engaged in somewhat silly (and not even accurate) word counts as if that was content discussion, I think TomasGerbs actually has a fairly good suggestion at this point. It feels like much of the reaction now is a bit of knee-jerk defense of Obama, rather than really good for article content.
In particular, this rhetoric about "one war (on terrrorism)" certainly plays well among American voters who are nationalistic boosterist ("my country right or wrong", etc). However, as a matter of plain fact and international law, the claim is false. It is a false claim frequently stated by the previous administration, and stated somewhat less incessantly by this administration. But in both cases, it is a matter of political pandering, not encyclopedic neutrality, and we should generally not include it (certainly not outside of direct quotes).
Moreover, war casualties are clearly part of war (if not the whole of it). And Obama did make rather a big deal of long deliberations leading to an increase in US troops in Afghanistan (and a decrease of those in Iraq). A few words tying those policy decisions to their effects and the status of these wars feels needed. Something characterizing the trends of civilian and combatant deaths during the dates when Obama increased troop levels in one war, and decreased them in another would be relevant framing. LotLE× talk 19:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that the only super-light critics is the last last but one sentence from article. TomasGerbs ( talk) 21:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
A couple notes: (1) Per several posters, including my own prior note, "terror(ism)" is a loaded term which we should generally avoid. Its use (including or especially in the phrase "War on Terror") generally indicates a rhetorical purpose rather than any factual one. (2) Per DD2K, I definitely do not want any big expansion of this article; the most I might propose is adding a clause (or at the outside, a short sentence) for this stuff.
We now have this sentence:
On December 1, Obama announced that he would deploy an additional 30,000 soldiers over a period of six months.
I think it could be framed a bit with something like:
Following a year in which US military deaths doubled( [15]?) and Afghani civilian deaths increased dramatically( [16]?), on December 1, Obama announced that he would deploy an additional 30,000 soldiers over a period of six months.
Those are somewhat hastily chosen possible citations, but those rough facts seem well supportable. We don't want to make a conclusion about whether the troop increase was the right or wrong response to the state of the war, but providing a clause indicating the general state is germane. LotLE× talk 21:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Btw. To counter the addition of a few words, I think we should lose the last sentence of that same paragraph:
The following day, Gen. McChrystal cautioned that the timeline was flexible and “is not an absolute”.
McChrystal's opinion/goal is politically interesting, no doubt, but it's not about Obama as such. LotLE× talk 21:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Can we come a bit back down to the ground here. The edit I suggest above isn't about Bush vs. Obama Celebrity Deathmatch (cute phrase though). I just think that the context of the escalation of the conflict in Afghanistan prior to Obama's troop increase is biographically relevant, as a matter of understanding the action itself. Numbers of deaths isn't the only possible context, but it is a pretty good marker for all the other context (in every war there are more injuries than deaths, on all sides, but there is a roughly scaling factor between them). In some wars, territorial control or access to resources driving the conflict are key context, but neither of those really apply to the US-Afghanistan war. If we present Obama's political decision on troop levels at all, the trends of the war leading to that action are relevant to the same degree as the decision itself. LotLE× talk 01:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, are you kidding here Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters? The association of the troop increase being in reaction to the deaths(military or civilian) in Afghanistan is only slightly less incorrect/absurd than the claims made by TomasGerbs that the deaths have a direct relation to the troop increase. First of all, President Obama made it abuntantly clear during both the Democratic Primaries and the Presidential election that he was going to focus the war effort in Afghanistan, calling it a 'war of necessity' and the focal point for the defeat 'terrorist al-Qaida network'. All this well before the rise in death toll in Afghanistan. In fact, President Obama met with Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen before he even took office and Mullen described what he told Obama and what Obama told him. In fact, he declared that during Obama's first 12-18 months in office that "We’re going to add those forces over the next 12 to 18 months...we’re gonna go from a current 32,000 up to as many as 60,000,". So I would appreciate if you would remove the insinuation that you included in the article. It's not factual. DD2K ( talk) 02:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Closed - Editor who started thread indef blocked for being yet another sock puppet of Multiplyperfect -- Scjessey ( talk) 01:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC) |
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/05/obama.terror.meeting/index.html This is a good critics from Obama. Edit it to the article. TomasGerbs ( talk) 00:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
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In reviewing the Iraq section I noticed that it focuses on the pledge to end combat operations in 18 months. To the average reader I believe this gives the impression that all (or most) of U.S. troops will be withdrawn by that date, but I believe the plan is for 10s of thousands to remain in Iraq beyond that date (I believe the 50,000 figure was put out?). Is a clarification needed? ChildofMidnight ( talk) 03:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Is it possible to make the section on health care reform more encyclopedic? It doesn't seem to say anything specific about the reform plan or what it actually entails (although it notes his support for a public option, which I don't think is in the legislation any more?). This is a fairly substantial issue in his presidency and it think would be helpful to get beyond the rather hollow "reform" language that isn't particularly informative. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 03:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so I tried to find a good source with the key components (I thought Obama layed out 10 or so criteria that he said needed to be met?), but I couldn't find a good one. Using this source from the New York Times [17], I think something along the lines of:
...in regards to this edit, (and I'm just commenting on what caught my eye at first glance and out of my own possible flawed memory which are located in my guts): His "key campaign promise..." did include mandatory health coverage for children, not for every American as Clinton proposed. Although this was later changed at some point after he was elected. Also the "public option", I think, was his wish but not a clear promise back then. Besides the above it needs some ce but if the edit should get consensus in general there sure will be some and the only open question is if this should be worked out at the talk page first or edited as needed in the article itself. The Magnificent Clean-keeper ( talk) 20:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
BHO is very articulate and good looking, many have said so, though some people saying so said it in a gaffe-ish way (Reid, Biden, Berluscone). Valid to add a short part there. Per another user's instructions, I'm following them and mentioning it here. JB50000 ( talk) 04:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Barack Obama is half white and the definition does not mention this. I do not look at him as a black president, he had a black father and white mother. He is also not African-American, he is black and white mix. The term African-American applies to people that lived in Africa and then came to America either by force during slavery or by choice after slavery was abolished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ItTakesACarter2GetaReagan ( talk • contribs) 03:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
The spoken version of the article is far out of date (Sept. 3, 2008) . The link should be disabled until an up-to-date version is available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanturvey ( talk) 12:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Citation #2 needs revision or update, Birth certificate is no longer located at this address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.248.73 ( talk) 20:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed this bit:
It is sourced to an interview of Obama.
ref name="autogenerated1" Obama Calls for U.S. Military to Renew Focus on Afghanistan /ref
This isn't adequate for a statement of fact of this type. I'm also concerned about the accuracy, since I think the drawdown of troops was already planned (and underway?) before Obama took office. Can someone find a better source(s) and propose an accurate description of events based on them? ChildofMidnight ( talk) 04:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Collapsing DD2K ( talk) 03:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Im want add this iformation about president"s controvery, but page it semi-protectet. Cant im add this content, or americans peoples can not tolerate the truth, but "inconvenient" information about their politicians? Wikipedia tries to act as nezávyslý source infromací, and instead gives you only the word 'comfortable' articles and the "most appropriate" information. What is the objectivity? "Barack Obama was forced to face the accusations, maintaining long-term friendship with prominent American terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrnovou, former leader of the terrorist group Weatherman, which currently is one of the prominent leaders of the extreme left Chicago. [16] However, it showed that he had with Ayers close relationship [17]. Obama previously appointed her husband for green jobs, Van Jones. He previously led the San Francisco Center for Human Rights, focusing on social injustice and collective rights. When the 1992 fires in the Los Angeles race riots, revolutionary essay he wrote: "We are fighting for justice, our goal is to change the system! Yes, a great revolutionary moment finally arrived. This is our hour, "[18] Mentor young Barry Obama in Hawaii was the Negro communist activist and writer, Frank Marshall Davis, who was in the fifties (Mccarthysmus) investigated by the U.S. Chamber of Deputies Committee on un-American activities. Now Davis persuaded the young Obama, which raised his white grandparents from mother's side, the more stressed his black identity and his first name used but not Barry, but Barack. Obama's wife Michelle during her studies at Princeton is famous works, which described two possible position on the Negro in American society: integrationist and segregacionistický. Integrationist means of the values of American (ie white, capitalist) society and may be a way to success. One can, however, it also in its look as a betrayal černošskosti. His friends also include the radical pastor Jeremiah Wright. Among his ideas is the claim that HIV was deliberately invented by the U.S. government and used as a weapon against blacks and accused the U.S. government of plotting the attacks of September 11. [19] Wright is one of Obama's close friends, Obama met with him in the eighties .. Obama, Wright and his wife Michelle gave himself, as well as baptized their two daughters. Relations between him and the reverend married Obama's been warm. Barack Obama in 2008, however, distanced himself from Reverend Wright. In the past, there were also some doubts about the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate [20]. Target of sharp criticism was his effort with the help of subsidies to promote both the industry and ecology, especially the production of cars with electric drive. The Wall Street Journal Europe declared that part of his policy for disaster. [21]" -- Fredy.00( talk) 16:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
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This article reads like it was written by supporters trying to seem neutral. There is almost no skeptisism of anything in his life, record, deeds or other. I can find several examples in almost every paragraph. Here's just one:
"In June, Obama, unsatisfied with the pace of economic stimulus investment, called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending over the next week. In March, Obama's Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, took further steps to manage the financial crisis, including introducing the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in depreciated real estate assets that were deemed to be weighing down stock valuations, freezing the credit market and delaying economic recovery."
So first, saying what his motivation was to increase spending is very subjective. The administration claims he was unsatisfied with the levels of spending, but for all we know he was unsatisfied with the poll numbers relating to the levels of spending. Also, to say that the assets were "depreciated" is not accurate. They were "toxic", but "depreciated" is what happens to disposable assets like trucks... a truck is say $10,000 when you buy it. The first year, you use $2,000 worth of it, so it has depreciated 20% annually. These mortgage assets were bad investments. They didn't depreciate, they collapsed because they had no valuable use, like a truck does. Next, the weren't "deemed to be weighing down the stock valuations". They were "claimed by Treasury, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street to be weighing down bank balance sheets." These toxic securities weren't stocks, they were derivatives. The stock valuations of FINANCIAL FIRMS ONLY were weighed down by TOXIC ASSETS on their BALANCE SHEETS because the ASSETS they held in reserve (their capitalization) had a much higher book value than market value. Next, Geithner is not "Obama's Treasury Secretary". He is the Secretary of the Treasury for the United States of America, not Obama. Last, to say that all this was "delaying economic recovery" is a guess, not a fact. Actually, nothing in the world says there MUST be an economic recovery at all, and this article assumes there will be and that it was delayed somehow by toxic assets. As a matter of fact, these assets did not "delay recovery", they created the need for a recovery by creating an economic crash.
I rewrite this whole page, and start with this paragraph. Here's how it should read:
"In June, Obama called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending of stimulus money over the next week, claiming that he was unsatisfied with the pace of spending to date. In March, Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, introduced the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in toxic real estate derivatives that were deemed to be weighing down the balance sheets of banks, freezing the Inter-Bank credit markets where banks lend to each other for fear of unknown exposure to these toxic assets." Zodiacww ( talk) 08:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Another editor said that this article was one of the best in Wikipedia. This kind of attitude risks patting ourselves on the back. This article is in great need of fixing.
Here's one thing that should be deleted. Mention of the Ledbetter Goodyear law. It is a mere technicality, something that is of interest to lawyers practicing employment law. It is a mere technical matter on statute of limitations. This should be removed so that other areas can be expanded. Using the lingo as others use, it is undue weight to give such a technicality coverage in this article of Obama's life. JB50000 ( talk) 06:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Domestic policy as president
The article lists 6 things, Goodyear Ledbetter (a highly technical law about statute of limitations), Sotomayer, Climate gases, children's health, stem cell research, and hate crimes. This is a poor choice of 6 things. I've replaced the weakest one (statute of limitations law) with the estate tax debate. Obama wants to keep the 2009 level. He couldn't get it passed in time so the tax was discontinued but will be increased to a much higher rate in 2011. Obama is still working on it so that it won't be as high as the 2011 rate. The climate gasses and Sotomayer are two of the strongest of the 6 and should remain.
JB50000 (
talk)
06:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's get some people to improve the 6 or so items that we pick. For example, the climate control wording is poor. We just say that he proposed. What about Copenhagen when he told the world what he wanted. Not mentioning Copenhagen weakens the climate part and makes it look like a list of dates...on Jan 1 he did this. On Feb 2, he did that.
We can do it if we stop patting ourselves on the back. JB50000 ( talk) 06:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The reference does not agree with what someone put in wikipedia.
Wikipedia: After a prolonged effort to find a church to attend regularly in Washington, complicated by security concerns among other issues, Obama announced in June 2009 that his primary place of worship would be the Evergreen Chapel at Camp David.[209]
What Time Magazine actually said: A number of factors drove the decision — financial, political, personal — but chief among them was the desire to worship without being on display
The Secret Service are not idiots. They know how to protect a President in a dangerous foreign country so a little church is a piece of cake.
Fixed. Any disagreement, find a reference better than Time. JB50000 ( talk) 08:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I do not understand all the details of American politics but coming to Wikipedia and this article does not help.
Barack Obama called for universal health care. His health care plan called for the creation of a National Health Insurance Exchange that would include both private insurance plans and a Medicare-like government run option. Coverage would be guaranteed regardless of health status, and premiums would not vary based on health status either. It would have required parents to cover their children, but did not require adults to buy insurance.[76][77][78]
Yet, some time later, President Obama did want to require that all adults buy insurance.
When did the change occur? Sounds like a major expense to me and would be a major change. Could it be in his health care section or politicial parties section. I cannot do it myself because I do not understand all the details of American politics but can see that there is a major shift that is not described. Maybe it was after he became President??? Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 20:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
He won the Nobel Peace Prize. The prestige should not be diminished by Obama-haters and put in the image section. His image is that he is tall and articulate. A Nobel Prize is an honor. Where else can it be? Under Presidency? JB50000 ( talk) 08:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Please read the following article: http://www.aclu.org/national-security/obama-administration-misses-deadline-close-guantanamo
And from the main article of Obama: "and ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp "as soon as practicable and no later than" January 2010"
Obviously we need to expand this text, regarding that the deadline missed. PeterXaver ( talk) 01:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Another account whose first edit is here, looking to insert criticisms? Hrmmm.... Tarc ( talk) 00:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I assume there was a big discussion on this but I can't find it in the archives. Why is there no mention of Obama's memoir in his BLP? It was clearly a literary achievement.-- Jarhed ( talk) 01:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Collapsing-Trolling does't need 'translation'. WP:NOTAFORUM DD2K ( talk) 15:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC) |
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translating into Wikipedia lingoThere was some comments by another user, since removed, which is translated below. I'm not sure about the first one but the next two may have some merit depending on sources found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB50000 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
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Why is the WP:LEAD section so darn short? In absolutely no way "able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article". For such an extremely long article/subarticles, I would sure expect more than this. A significant portion of the article is not summarized in the lead. In no way is it even vaguely adequate to stand alone. Reywas92 Talk 19:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, I will make a few comments. I was about to post the just about same thing as Frank, but he relayed it better. I'm sure if someone wants to make an constructive addition that would enhance the article, editors would have no problem with that. Now, on the page size. I don't have the tools for the Dr pda script, but the page size calculator gives the size of the page at over 736 KB and states it would take a 56K modem over 107 seconds to load the page. We have to remember that page size includes pictures too. In any case, I do believe the leade fits right in with Wiki standards, but there is always room for improvement. DD2K ( talk) 23:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I DO NOT support either of these theories, but should they be mentioned here? Why do so many people think these weird things? I mean, we should try to add a little note about this. I'm neutral about Obama, but I think it is essential to add current social perceptions about any issue. If you think we shouldn't, though, just delete everything I wrote...I'm not the argument kinda person...Have a nice day, guys (whatever you do)! ^_^ Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 20:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Come on, Scjessey, that's kinda...POV, to me, but as I said, I really, really don't want to make a big deal out of this. By the way, I haven't edited the article. But it is an interesting point...false, perhaps, but maybe not completely non-notable. But I doubt that's for me to decide. Anyway, ^_^! Have a fantastic day (or evening)! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 21:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that if you look you'll find either Hitler comparisons or anti-Christ comparisons to many past presidents. And I am talking about claims made while they were president. Nixon was one of the unique individuals who got both (so did Kissinger for that matter). Every Pope for god knows how long as well as many prime ministers of England, France, Germany and Italy have all gotten "potential anti-Christ" write ups from someone or another. My point is that calling a president a potential anti-Christ is actually not unique or noteworthy. Chalk it up to the amount of power America has post WWII and the fact that the book of Revelations is heavily cryptic, often vague and uses very esoteric references. Many Christians don't even attempt to decipher the book and there are many who think they know what is in there but don't. Take the Left Behind books, most of that stuff is blatantly just made up and pretty bizarre interpretations of what is there but people take it at face value because almost no one is willing to unpack such a complex work. Throw in how vague and cryptic it can be and the book can be spun into arguing that almost any powerful person fits "the signs." So no I don't think it should be added to Obama any more than it should be added to various Popes over the years or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or Nixon, etc. Jdlund ( talk) 23:41, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Also, we only mention in passing the possibility of the Pope being the Anti-Christ, which is way more likely than Obama; Obama being the anti-Christ is based on his political views, whereas the Pope can somewhat reasonably be hypothesised as the anti-Christ. Sceptre ( talk) 17:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
OMG, I so did NOT want to offend any1 with this, AT ALL. (why do ppl, like this random japanese guy (or gal) I've never talked to ask me rlly random questions on my talk page, i dont know, maybe its because of this). plz, though, I'm really srry for posting this...wait, dude, scepter, why is the pope the antichrist? (just wondering...) GUYS, have a fantastic and smashing day! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 21:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
This article needs to be renamed "Barack Obama and American history since 2009". Instead of renaming it, we must focus on the man, not U.S. history. If he is involved, mention it. If he is just peripherally involved, do not mention it. Judith Merrick ( talk) 01:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I would agree with you Judith, but the History must be written at a later date. My College History books (1492-1785 and 1786-Present) will have a third companion. "9-11-2001 to Present". The 1786 to present book will need to be completed and ended. The most current book will not be able to be written for many years, and in my opinion and therefore not credited, will begin at 9-11 and not BHO. We are living in variable times in which the balance could be shifted to one side or the other. The balance was lowered in 2008, and we (freedom and liberty loving Americans) are on an upswing now (as of 2-5-2010), but the "History" is still unwritten and YOU will have the ability to contribute to the cause of Freedom in America in the future. Those persons in control of what gets written right here on Wikipedia, just like yourself, will have a voice in the account of these days. I ask of you to stay vigilant and keep those who alter without citation to be held accountable. This also includes yourself and myself. Keep up the good work and refresh yourself, as I will, on the rules of proper content and editing. As long as we both hold the TRUTH as a torch, those who would wish to extinguish it, will not have the breathe.Bikeric (talk) 06:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
This section has been rewritten with the above comments in mind. Most information has been kept but now the emphasis is on health care as it related to Obama, not just a general U.S. current events lesson. Here it is: JB50000 ( talk) 04:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Changes in health care was one of Obama's key campaign promises and a top legislative goal.[156] He has proposed an expansion of health insurance coverage to cover the uninsured. As a candidate for President, he distinguished his proposals from that of his Democratic rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, by not requiring Americans to purchase health insurance.[157][158] By June, 2009, he began to advocate a requirement that Americans purchase health insurance.[159][160] As President, his proposal would spend $900 billion over 10 years and include a government insurance plan (option) to compete with the private sector. It would also make it illegal for insurers to drop sick people or deny them coverage for pre-existing conditions, and require every American carry health coverage. The plan also includes Medicare spending cuts and taxes on insurance companies that offer expensive plans and a tax on implanted medical devices, such as artificial knees and heart valves.[161] Obama originally set deadlines for Congress to pass health care legislation by August, 2009.[162] On September 9, 2009, during the Congressional summer, Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress where he addressed concerns over his administration's proposals.[163]
President Barack Obama's signature on the memorandum expanding funding for health clinics across the country. December 9, 2009.A health care bill, after the inclusion of the Stupak–Pitts Amendment, allowed passage in the House.[164][165] On December 24, 2009, a version of the bill was passed in the Senate[166] after concessions were offered the Senator Ben Nelson, the remaining Democratic holdout.[167][168] However, the January 19, 2010 election of Republican Scott Brown from a heavily Democratic state, Massachusetts, was reported in the press as a sign of voter dissatisfaction with health care legislation.[169][170] After the election of Brown, Obama called on Congress not to "jam" legislation before Brown was seated in the Senate and suggested he open to scaled back health care legislation.[171] Obama then focused on the economy amid speculation that he would announce a scaled down health plan during his State of the Union address in late January, 2010.[172]
This section badly needs updating since it says the Senate and House passed health care legislation. That is not accurate since Reid and Pelosi are trying to figure out what to do now that Scott Brown won in what was suppose to be a safe Democratic state. A really neutral wording, focusing on Obama and what Obama himself is saying can be:
After the January 19, 2010 election of Republican Scott Brown from a heavily Democratic state, Massachusetts, Obama called on Congress not to "jam" legislation before Brown was seated in the Senate and suggested he was open to scaled back health care legislation.[171](reference 171 is an article that has the word "jam" in the title and is about scaled back legislation) Obama then focused on the economy amid reports that he would announce a scaled down health plan during his State of the Union address in late January, 2010.[172] (Reference 172 specifically is a CNN article entitled something like "Obama refocuses on the economy")
JB50000 ( talk) 07:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
A Miller Center reference, which is just a summary without references, not a primary source, is used to justify Christianity as Obama's religion. That same reference lists his occupation as community organizer and public official. They do not list him as lawyer, author, or constitutional law scholar. If they are that sloppy or inaccurate, they are an unreliable source. If they are deemed reliable, then that source advocates occupation: community organizer and public official.
My opinion: Let's use only reliable sources. If our arguments or edits use unreliable sources, those edits are no good for this article. I think the Miller Center reference is unreliable unless others can convince me otherwise. JB50000 ( talk) 05:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
But I also cited the Washington Post article from February 4th, 2010 that stated:Obama has told White House aides that instead of joining a congregation in Washington, D.C., he will follow in George W. Bush's footsteps and make his primary place of worship Evergreen Chapel, the nondenominational church at Camp David
I hope this is satisfactory, although the footnotes for that section is getting pretty long. We are going to have to trim it down when the situation is more clear. DD2K ( talk) 06:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)Obama prays privately...when he takes his family to Camp David on the weekends, a Navy chaplain ministers to them.
Let's focus the discussion on the original topic, judging the references. When a major newspaper reports something, they are usually considered reliable even though errors do happen from time to time. This Miller Center thing looks like these factcheck.org or other think tank summaries. Does Miller have errors? This section is not about religion, it's about references. We should always strive for the best references. JB50000 ( talk) 06:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Is Politico considered reliable? How about Huffington Post? JB50000 ( talk) 06:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Nothing is said on the attempts on his life of which there were allegedly four. Kind of useful information considering 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 05:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
THERE IS AN ERROR IN THE ETHNICITY OF PRESIDENT OBAMA. HE SHOULD BE LISTED AS THE FIRST BIRACIAL PRESIDENT. THAT IS SIMPLY FACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.14.224.98 ( talk) 07:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Because of a mix-up with the words during Obama's actual inauguration, he decided to be sworn in a second time the next day "out of an abundance of caution". There is a reasonably in-depth mention in the Presidency of Barack Obama page, but what is the consensus on whether it belongs on this page or not? Here is my source: [20].-- Mister Zoo ( talk) 14:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
It seems as though the general consensus is against putting this into the main biographical article. Given that it is covered well in some of the other "Obama Group" articles, I will leave things as they are unless someone else comes in with a strong support for its inclusion. However, I think that any mention of it in other Obama-related articles should remain there. Thanks for all the comments.-- Mister Zoo ( talk) 18:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
A few things are definitely historical when that happen. 11th September 2001 is one of them. Others, not so certain.
Obama is going to cancel plans for American human exploration of the moon and Mars. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8489097.stm This is possibly historic but it would be useful to have a sticky so that a year from now we can see what is historic and was is not.
I am very much involved in the notability discussion among different editors (for example, is Balloon Boy notable, how about the murder of ____). While the notability discussion involves if an article is notable, to some extent, inclusion of information in article should be notable, though the criteria is a bit less strict. By having a sticky, we then can decide after a year or so, what is notable enough for this article.
Cheers, Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 16:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
We haven't had a man on the Moon since 1972. In fact, the entirety of America's adventures on the moon, spurred on by John F. Kennedy, span three and a half years in the first term of Richard Nixon, from July 16, 1969, to December 14, 1972. (Of course in Nixon's two terms there were two recessions, record postwar unemployment, horrible stagflation, a stock market crash, an oil crisis and two wars [counting Vietnam and the Cold War] before Nixon left office, all of which had something to do with that.)
Not that it's intended that way, but "List of possibly historic events..." is a coatrack waiting to happen. Anything that is not now notable but in the future turns out to be evidently historic should be discussed at the point of that historical hindsight, and not strung along here with all its bastard cousins in tow, growing fringier and more populated until then. Abrazame ( talk) 19:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
This article inaccurately states that "from ages six to ten, Obama attended local schools in Jakarta" and that he first returned to Hawaii in 1971. In fact, it has been confirmed by the President, and with photographic evidence, that Obama spent at least part of third grade back at Noelani Elementary School. In December 2009, the Honolulu Star Bulletin published a story with a picture of Obama with former third grade Noelani classmate Scott Inoue, who confirmed that Obama was there for at least part of 1969. The article also notes that Obama signed the photograph and sent Inoue a thank you note:
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20091228_third_grade_photo_captures_obamas_grin.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091201/A_LIFE1201/912010313/-1/a_life
The picture was also published in Hawaii Business Magazine, the same source you use to substantiate his attendance at Noelani for Kindergarten.
But if you don't include this information, I'd like a little clarification on Wikipedia's policy. You state rather unambiguously that Obama was born in Kapiolani Medical center, even though no one -- not Obama, not the hospital, not a person like Scott Inoue -- has ever asserted that fact. It's just an UNSOURCED claim in a number of newspapers. Why is this SOURCED claim in several Hawaiian newspapers insufficient? Why are you suddenly looking behind the reporting and weighing the credibility of sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
No, you're quite wrong about where I saw the Kapiolani reference. I saw it at the page on Obama's early years and career. That page does - indeed! - purport to identify each school Obama attended and when. Notably, the page even contains a separate chart listing the schools and dates. Yet, when I added this fully, reliably sourced, acknowledged-by-the-President-with-photographic-proof information regarding Obama's attendance at Noelani, some editor deleted (vandalized ) the page on grounds that Mr. Inoue was not credible. In contrast, Kapiolani remains in the article even though no reliable source attributes that information to any person or document at all (if you can identity the person or document claiming that Kapiolani is Obama's birth hospital, please do so now.
As to your discounting of Obama's third grade attendance as mere "sentimental" interest, the same can be said of any of the information regarding Obama's elementary (and secondary) school education. But the question is factuality and sourcing. The information regarding his third grade education is at least (if not better) sourced than the information you have chosen to include regarding any other years of his education. So your only choice is either to delete all the educational information or include the new information regarding his third grade attendance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Oh my gosh, I don't know what's totally going on here, but, guys, please be nice to each other. I mean, all Wikipedians are buddies together, right? Like, seriously, this isn't too big of an issue, dudes. Have a fantastic day, all! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 22:13, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
IF it's not on this page, then you shouldn't be bitching about it on this talk page, but at that article, where you had added the information before coming here.
How silly! I didn't say I ONLY saw the reference to Kapiolani on the early years article. That's where I first saw the reference, and where I first attempted to add the new information about third grade. I cannot add information to this article because it is locked.
But the Kapiolani information is ALSO included in this article. Because it is less sourced than the information about Obama's third grade attendance, it should be removed, and the information about his third grade attendance should be added. What's so hard about saying "from ages six to ten, with the exception of part of third grade, Obama attended school in Jakarta"?
The question is one of notability and relevance. That he spent a few months back in Hawa'ii in the third grade has little relevance to his actions and positions as a president.
Nor does the fact that he spent ages 6-10 in Jakarta have much relevance, but it's there. As is the reference, in this article, to his birth at Kapiolani.
If I'm wrong about that, the place to argue the incredible importance would be at that other page, the one you ALREADY edited. This complaint here is about you getting attention.
I will indeed bring the argument over to the other page, but continue to argue that it be added to this article as well. The complaint here is about the article being accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 16 February 2010
I see we've gone from "Kapiolani is not in this article" to "Noelani isn't properly sourced" to "Noelani should be on another page," to "he only visited Noelani in third grade" to "so what if he spent half of third grade in Hawaii" to "you're a birther." I guess neener neener neener is next.
I think what you meant to say, Abrazame, is that you're a Wikipedia newbie with no clue as to what WP:Weight and WP:Source mean. It wouldn't be giving undue wight to throw in a line saying that "Except for part of third grade, Obama spent ages 6-10 in schools in Jakarta." It would simply be accurate based on the undisputed testimonial and photographic evidence -- the very same evidence that supports the claim that he spent Kindergarten at Noelani. And I can't imagine why you say it's "not simply poor sourcing", when there's no problem with the sourcing at all. Quite frankly, I see very few claims in the rest of the article which are supported by signed-by-the-president photographs.
Furthermore, if you are indeed familiar with sourcing and weight, you'd remove the claim regarding the Kapiolani birthplace. It's an embarrassment that it's been included here. It's just an unattributed statement in a couple of newspapers, never documented or corroborated by a human source. TruthfulPerson ( talk) 16:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello Barack Obama editors. I have created a draft article on the international media reaction to Obama's 2008 election here and would like to solicit your feedback. Please leave comments and suggestions on the page's talk page here. Thank you -- Amandaroyal ( talk) 01:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Other presidents are linked like "John_F._Kennedy" with a middle initial - why is the link for this president not Barack_H._Obama? This creates inconsistency with others and appears to reduce stature of this person.
188.194.100.217 ( talk) 08:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Not a big deal, but this sentence does not have a cite. Either of these should suffice: [22] [23] 71.57.126.233 ( talk) 21:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
I object, Socks, the First Cat is not mentioned in Bill Clinton's article!! Besides, Bo is the girls' dog, not Barack's. See http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/12/Meet-Bo-the-First-Dog/ (The Obamas welcome Bo, a six-month old Portuguese water dog and a gift from Senator and Mrs. Kennedy to Sasha and Malia) so Wikipedia is wrong. Bo is not Barack's dog. Socks the First Cat ( talk) 00:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The campaign is over. The political positions sections need to go. If not, it doesn't represent his positions too well. Keeping it represents the dumbing down of Wikipedia because it is way too simple and not even accurate. JB50000 ( talk) 07:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like a synthetic argument to me. Malke 2010 18:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
You seem upset. Please stay on topic, and WP:CIVIL. I was asked by another editor why I felt there needed to be a controversy section. I answered. Then you came back with your question. I answered in a polite and informed manner. Malke 2010 18:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
(ui) back to the original question, I think that "positions" per se are a lot less important to a sitting president than a candidate. During the election one can look at a candidate's proposals, policy platform, record, and stated positions, and probably a few other things. Once elected their actual performance in office becomes relatively more important. This article, and even more so the child articles, suffer a bit by conflating all of these things. Making a speech announcing your position on something is a lot different than getting legislation passed (or signing it despite reservations). - Wikidemon ( talk) 20:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
There's already been useful comments, such as that this section is better for candidates that are running, that there is the problem of positions changing so do we use the current one and ignore the old one or just show how it's been slightly modified. If Magnificant Clean-keeper is saying bye-bye, he can leave but should not close the discussion.
So focusing the discussion...one question is if we should keep it only current or make it the history of his positions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB50000 ( talk • contribs)
This article has some summary style accounts of some major policy issues during Obama's first year in office [24]. It's a very liberal source (LA Times) so it's quite flattering and leaves out the unfavorables, but I still thought it was interesting and might be worth using as an article source. I think more substance on the most notable aspects of Obama's career needs to be added as it develops and the depictions his previous campaigns and platform are overdue for trimming. I'm making this a subsection of the above discussion as it seems to relate to that discussion in some respects. As there's been action on his policy positions, that content needs to be worked in and some of the lesser spin and fluff removed. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 02:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Obama's health care position has changed somewhat. During the campaign, he was against the public option but now he's for it. However, he will not join a jihad for it and is probably willing to let it go. Dumb down Wikipedia and what are you going to say? Obama is for Obamacare?
In selecting positions, who is to say that his Venezuela position is not notable or not to be mentioned, yet the obscure subject of Dafur is mentioned. The economy, especially the banks, is a big position (he favors taxing transactions and really taxing the greedy bankers) yet nothing is mentioned. On the other hand, teacher pay is mostly at the local level so why have any mention of it?
This selection of topics has components of original research, which is forbidden.
There are two possible selections. #1 is to rewrite it to the level of a featured article or #2 is to get rid of it. Now it is so far from a featured article that any high school senior writing it for history class would get an F. JB50000 ( talk) 05:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
As an engineer, I prefer numbers. Could there possibly be a spot in this "First year in office" section which involves the employment of the American citizen? I have no problem with citing the actual numbers of employed Americans on day one of inauguration and with the shrunken number 1 year later. We should not have the number as a percentage, due to unreliable percentages from the source. We should keep the numbers as whole and real as reported by the IRS. The number should be the population minus number of full-time-tax-paying jobs. This would be very easy to report the difference within a one year time-span. Any objections? Bikeric ( talk) 06:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem continues. This section is full of original research ideas justified with references. The choice of topics is purely original research. Even the writing is inaccurate and biased. Look here as an example...
Obama has supported eliminating taxes for senior citizens with incomes of under $50,000, and raising taxes on income over $250,000, on capital gains, and on dividends.[169] He has also supported simplifying tax filings and removing loopholes.[170]
There has been debate to whether Obama is raising taxes for some people by supporting certain health care measures. Some union members with good health insurance will be taxed. Democrat and former Clinton aid Stephanopolis questioned whether the insurance requirement was a tax. This article can't be one sided and just paint part of the picture yet it's also not a debate article. The article should not be about what Obama promised and what the retort is, yet we shouldn't also just be a mouthpiece of the 2008 Obama campaign.
The quote also says that Obama supports simplifying tax filing. He's done nothing in a year so maybe this political position was just a campaign gimmick?
The point is that there is surely a reference to his pledge of simplified taxes but the reference is just repeating a campaign promise. It is not necessarily a major position of Obama because he's done nothing.
So the fairest thing to do would be to get rid of the section. If it is not gotten rid of then every position must be analyzed and proof that it is an important position must be made. That is very hard to achieve. JB50000 ( talk) 06:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to write the article for former Finnish prime minister Aho and came here for comparison. The political position section for Aho is difficult to write. He was against EU membership. Later, he was for it and rightfully brought Finland out of the periphery of Europe by getting EU membership. Now EU membership is a non-issue.
So for Aho, should there be a political positions section? If so, how should it cover his EU position. Also who is to choose which positions to list.(somme issues are obscure, somme issues are hard to say, somme, like the EU are easy). These are difficult questions that I can't answer for Mr. Obama because I even have difficulty answering it for the article on Mr. Aho. If there are any ideas, let me and others know on the Aho talk page. As far as this article, I can only suggest discussion. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 20:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't see a consensus to keep this section. On the other hand, there is not a clear consensus to remove the section. There is some mention to trim it.
How about this as a compromise? Trim it down to the basics of the 2008 campaign. Iraq, Guantanamo/treatment of suspected terrorists, tax increases for the $250,000 people, health care, missile defense are probably the main positions. Hurricane Katrina is not a big issue, every politician is opposed to hurricanes. This could be a subsection called "Pre-presidential positions" which could be hidden text. Then in 2012, we could have a "Re-election positions" which would not necessarily be his campaign positions but a summary of his positions in 2012. Those could be very different particularly if there is an al-Qaeda nuclear attack on New York or if Citibank goes bankrupt and takes down the other banks or if there's a giant New Madrid/St. Louis earthquake that flattens St. Louis and Memphis. JB50000 ( talk) 05:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC) Good idea. 2008 positions and later 2012 positions
This appears to be the new consensus. Keep the positions for the 2008 campaign. Actually, I think it's a little like advertising but this is ok. There probably should be a major update in 2011. However, it is very historical that his 2008 positions stay here, like his Iraq opposition (which is almost a non-issue now). JB50000 ( talk) 04:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
We should come to an agreement, everyone of every political opinion and those with no opinion. This is about what we want the article to be.
One possibility is to stick with the facts. Only facts, no conclusion. If it is an opinion, then cut it out.
Another possibility is to allow reliably sourced analysis, but trying to keep the analysis down, when possible. Part of a historical article or biographical article is to analyze history. For example, in World War II, we could just list the battles and when Germany surrendered. Or we can use reliably sourced analysis to explain why the Battle of Britain was won (or lost if you are a German) and how that battle was important for the war. The importance of the Battle of Britain is commonly accepted but cannot be proven. The Iran hostages hurt Jimmy Carter's presidency. That cannot be proven but is thought to be true by reliable sources.
This latter possibility is more educational but more difficult to write.
Which possibility do others prefer? I am very neutral. I think the first one is easier since Obama is a current figure and lean very, very slightly to this choice. However, I can see the better educational value of the latter but at a cost of needing huge discussion for each analysis or opinion put in the article, even if it is the reliable source's opinion, not the Wikipedia editor. Again, please no arguing, just discuss how we should proceed. JB50000 ( talk) 05:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Some of the responses are not clear, but to summarize as best I can. If mistaken, feel free to correct:
JB50000: I am very neutral. I think the first one is easier since Obama is a current figure and lean very, very slightly to this choice. (Facts only is easier, analysis difficult)
Wikidemon: Interesting meta-question. Thanks for thinking of that. Although I would prefer the second, I think you're right that it would be very difficult. There's a stalemate that settles in when so many people are watching an article, and also, it's very hard to know how history will judge today's events. For practical reasons I think we have to stick with the facts, then with small pieces of analysis like ... (Prefer analysis but given the difficult, stick with the facts first)
ThuranX: Argumentative, no opinion offered.
Scjessey: This article is meant to reflect (Analysis, not facts only)
So the censensus is best summarized as "think we have to stick with the facts, then with small pieces of analysis" (quote from Wikidemon). So heavily based on facts and, as Wikidemon said, be very careful with any analysis. So if one source says something with analysis, it should be disregarded. JB50000 ( talk) 03:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
So there is general agreement to stick with the facts and be very, very careful if including any analysis and lean towards not having analysis? JB50000 ( talk) 03:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
JB50000, isn't this what we already do? Tarc ( talk) 05:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Referring to this diff [26] a 12/13 associate or lawyer firm is not small. It is not big but it is somewhere above middle. The vast majority of firms are single practitioners ( American Bar foundation statistical report from 2000 ) and to have 12 or 13 lawyers places this firm in the top (roughly) 30% by numbers of people and into the top 10% by counts of firms. A reference that uses "small" is significantly at odds with what we have as the demographics of firms around that time. I say drop the "small". Ttiotsw ( talk) 08:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
It is not vital, but we must not be sloppy. Some want small. But Wikidemon points out that Time Magazine says tiny, which is not the same as small. We can put 12, like it was. Or we can put that the Chicaco office currently has 10, which the law firms' website says. So my vote is 10 or 12. JB50000 ( talk) 04:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The President of Argentina (right) and President of the United States (left)
2 good photos. JB50000 ( talk) 08:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I like the top two :) JB50000 ( talk) 04:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, for about a year we had eighteen words:
Earlier this month, somebody expanded it to twenty-eight words:
Now we have fifty-two:
Three times as many words, yet not quite three times as much useful information. Because of other distractions, I didn't make an issue of this when the "about twenty years" thing was added, even though that's pretty much a given with a man in his early forties, as nobody starts smoking in their thirties or forties, and as the "before being elected" thing was pretty obvious too. But part of the point of inline citations to web articles is so that when somebody wants to know more detail about a minor issue, they can click and read more at the source. For all of the details one might update, the fact that a current article on a routine check-up spun a positive health report into a smoking headline does not mean we double or triple the size of the issue in this article. His vision is 20/20 in both eyes, but no sentence for that? He takes a nonsteroidal anti-infmammitory for tendinitis, doesn't seem to interest anybody. His cholesterol is up slightly, nobody thinks to add that. But he had a cigarette in June, that's biographical? No.
For pertinence and concision, I am changing to the following:
I am retaining the December 2008 ref to allow interested parties to learn about the White House detail and keep both of the current refs to source the new details. If he does quit, we can shorten it further. If some other detail comes out, we can discuss here whether we add or replace something to include it. Abrazame ( talk) 06:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(Lizzie Borden profanity) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.188.250 ( talk) 23:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The lead should really mention the fact he's originally from Hawaii, if only briefly. 82.124.235.191 ( talk) 17:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 65 | Archive 66 | Archive 67 | Archive 68 | Archive 69 | Archive 70 | → | Archive 75 |
An obvious point that many partisan editors seems to fail to understand (or selectively ignores anyway), is that some content that was biographically significant in an article about an IL State Senator is simply not notable for inclusion in the main biography of the POTUS. Of course, as well the article presumably has achieved better focus and writing quality over time also. This article is 23k words of readable prose (about 170k total bytes, including non-main content), which is pretty much the maximum proper length of a WP article, if not longer (see WP:SIZE, WP:SPLIT, and WP:SUMMARY). Moreover, it has been this same approximate length (of readable text, the footnotes have grown quite a lot) for at least 4 years.
Saying that some content is relevant (whether included years ago or brand new) needs to be framed as "is more important than some content currently in the article. If we add something on, say, Obama's childhood friendships, we need to take out, e.g. his Nobel Prize to make room for it. Today's polling numbers, or some minor point about an early campaign, are unlikely to reach that "more important" threshold (even if the facts are perfectly true, and perfectly well supported by WP:RS). If someone wants to make an argument to include dramatically new content (or equally, recirculated very old content), they need to show why this content is more important than something we have in the article now, and ideally also take out what they are replacing. That argument is not necessarily impossible, but to pretend it need not be made is dishonest and destructive. LotLE× talk 19:14, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
My above statement is actually far too generous to those proposing additions. In fact, looking more closely this article is really too long now. It is true that some a good chunk of the growth is in footnotes, which is not so much harmful. However, the article itself has also been growing, and growing too fast and recently. Looking over a couple years of edits, the article has usually always been below 140k bytes, and very often below 130k, until the last few months. Now it has grown quite excessively to 170k. This screams out to me that we desperately need another refactoring pass to get better WP:SUMMARY style... and we need it soon. LotLE× talk 19:25, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
proposer is topic banned for one month |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Currently Mentioned:
Formerly Mentioned, Now Removed:
Minor Issues:
Furthermore, despite all the discussion on the talk page in the past over inclusion of such material, when such critical material is mentioned, it is often done so without reference of the prominent media coverage at the time. What is more, it appeared that negative scandals or mention of controversial events were being steadily pushed farther and farther down the page as 2008 wore on, regardless of the event's sourcing and prominence in the news. This seems a clear example of undue weight. For example, the current article mentions prominently at the top that Obama claimed his drug use was his greatest moral failure (possible leading) and mentions a 1993 occurrence where he was named to Crain's Small Busines "Forty Under 40". However, more words are spent on that one reference than the prominent 2004 senate campaign between Keyes and Obama, or the Public Financing scandal which wore on for months during the 2008 elections - both of which get mentioned much lower, and negligibly. The article also appeared to grow sizeably during the 2008 general election, even as the controversies were being removed from the article. Is it possible more info was being added at the top to hide what few mentions of controversy remained? (Seeing as they've been getting mentioned as minimally as possible). -- Jzyehoshua ( talk) 20:13, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
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Add "Politician" to the "Occupation" section.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew Ryan Lewis ( talk) 18:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Could you point out to me what is the reason that there is only one occurence of the word "terror" in the article? Just to remind you that there is an ongoing war on terrorism both in Iraq and in Afghanistan lead by Obama. For a comparison: G.W.Bush's article contains 24 times the terror word. For a foreign people, like me, reading the article one could have an idea, that there is no terror threat in US. TomasGerbs ( talk) 00:46, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Just to satisfy the editor: terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror terror. There are 24 occurrences just to give you a warm feeling. On a slightly more serious note, if you have an actual edit proposal, make it! Articles aren't some formal exercise in using some random word a certain number of times (shockingly, BTW, this article uses 'news' 68 times, and yet it is only mentioned twice in George W. Bush... clearly an attempt to cover up the fact Bush was often in the news). If you have an actual useful and relevant sentence that uses the word 'terror', suggest it for addition. Otherwise, perhaps we should close this thread. LotLE× talk 01:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
FWIW, just because I am a geek, I decided to look at actual word counts:
% histogram GB.txt | grep 'terror' | egrep -v '(url)|(cite)|(ref)' terrorist 6 terrorists 4 terrorism 1 terror 1 counterterrorism 1 % histogram BO.txt | grep 'terror' | egrep -v '(url)|(cite)|(ref)' terrorism 2
I don't want to explain the tools too deeply. The last bit is just to ignore somewhat non-relevant occurrences like 'weburlhttpwwwguardiancoukworldfebindiaterrorismtitleCIA', which isn't really a use of 'terror' in a real way. The actual ratio of this arbitrary morpheme is 13:2, not 24:1. LotLE× talk 01:40, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The Afghan and Iraq wars both have there own titled sections of the article. How does adding a single sentence somewhere else give them better coverage here than they already have? -- OuroborosCobra ( talk) 03:02, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
The first time in the article that happens we can read about the Iraq war is on the 8-th page (on a tft monitor), the same happens in the first page of Bush's article. But we can obtain more important informations while we read the Obama's article, like
We know every pointless idiotic datas Obama's family, but not know that he leads two wars. TomasGerbs ( talk) 08:29, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Only this artcile's title should be also good for the article, for reference: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2009/12/29/2009-12-29_deadliest_year_for_us_troops_on_afghan_duty_311_killed_in_2009_up_from_155_in_20.html TomasGerbs ( talk) 10:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Despite the unhelpful start by the editor who engaged in somewhat silly (and not even accurate) word counts as if that was content discussion, I think TomasGerbs actually has a fairly good suggestion at this point. It feels like much of the reaction now is a bit of knee-jerk defense of Obama, rather than really good for article content.
In particular, this rhetoric about "one war (on terrrorism)" certainly plays well among American voters who are nationalistic boosterist ("my country right or wrong", etc). However, as a matter of plain fact and international law, the claim is false. It is a false claim frequently stated by the previous administration, and stated somewhat less incessantly by this administration. But in both cases, it is a matter of political pandering, not encyclopedic neutrality, and we should generally not include it (certainly not outside of direct quotes).
Moreover, war casualties are clearly part of war (if not the whole of it). And Obama did make rather a big deal of long deliberations leading to an increase in US troops in Afghanistan (and a decrease of those in Iraq). A few words tying those policy decisions to their effects and the status of these wars feels needed. Something characterizing the trends of civilian and combatant deaths during the dates when Obama increased troop levels in one war, and decreased them in another would be relevant framing. LotLE× talk 19:37, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that the only super-light critics is the last last but one sentence from article. TomasGerbs ( talk) 21:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
A couple notes: (1) Per several posters, including my own prior note, "terror(ism)" is a loaded term which we should generally avoid. Its use (including or especially in the phrase "War on Terror") generally indicates a rhetorical purpose rather than any factual one. (2) Per DD2K, I definitely do not want any big expansion of this article; the most I might propose is adding a clause (or at the outside, a short sentence) for this stuff.
We now have this sentence:
On December 1, Obama announced that he would deploy an additional 30,000 soldiers over a period of six months.
I think it could be framed a bit with something like:
Following a year in which US military deaths doubled( [15]?) and Afghani civilian deaths increased dramatically( [16]?), on December 1, Obama announced that he would deploy an additional 30,000 soldiers over a period of six months.
Those are somewhat hastily chosen possible citations, but those rough facts seem well supportable. We don't want to make a conclusion about whether the troop increase was the right or wrong response to the state of the war, but providing a clause indicating the general state is germane. LotLE× talk 21:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Btw. To counter the addition of a few words, I think we should lose the last sentence of that same paragraph:
The following day, Gen. McChrystal cautioned that the timeline was flexible and “is not an absolute”.
McChrystal's opinion/goal is politically interesting, no doubt, but it's not about Obama as such. LotLE× talk 21:49, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
Can we come a bit back down to the ground here. The edit I suggest above isn't about Bush vs. Obama Celebrity Deathmatch (cute phrase though). I just think that the context of the escalation of the conflict in Afghanistan prior to Obama's troop increase is biographically relevant, as a matter of understanding the action itself. Numbers of deaths isn't the only possible context, but it is a pretty good marker for all the other context (in every war there are more injuries than deaths, on all sides, but there is a roughly scaling factor between them). In some wars, territorial control or access to resources driving the conflict are key context, but neither of those really apply to the US-Afghanistan war. If we present Obama's political decision on troop levels at all, the trends of the war leading to that action are relevant to the same degree as the decision itself. LotLE× talk 01:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, are you kidding here Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters? The association of the troop increase being in reaction to the deaths(military or civilian) in Afghanistan is only slightly less incorrect/absurd than the claims made by TomasGerbs that the deaths have a direct relation to the troop increase. First of all, President Obama made it abuntantly clear during both the Democratic Primaries and the Presidential election that he was going to focus the war effort in Afghanistan, calling it a 'war of necessity' and the focal point for the defeat 'terrorist al-Qaida network'. All this well before the rise in death toll in Afghanistan. In fact, President Obama met with Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen before he even took office and Mullen described what he told Obama and what Obama told him. In fact, he declared that during Obama's first 12-18 months in office that "We’re going to add those forces over the next 12 to 18 months...we’re gonna go from a current 32,000 up to as many as 60,000,". So I would appreciate if you would remove the insinuation that you included in the article. It's not factual. DD2K ( talk) 02:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Closed - Editor who started thread indef blocked for being yet another sock puppet of Multiplyperfect -- Scjessey ( talk) 01:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC) |
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/01/05/obama.terror.meeting/index.html This is a good critics from Obama. Edit it to the article. TomasGerbs ( talk) 00:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
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In reviewing the Iraq section I noticed that it focuses on the pledge to end combat operations in 18 months. To the average reader I believe this gives the impression that all (or most) of U.S. troops will be withdrawn by that date, but I believe the plan is for 10s of thousands to remain in Iraq beyond that date (I believe the 50,000 figure was put out?). Is a clarification needed? ChildofMidnight ( talk) 03:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Is it possible to make the section on health care reform more encyclopedic? It doesn't seem to say anything specific about the reform plan or what it actually entails (although it notes his support for a public option, which I don't think is in the legislation any more?). This is a fairly substantial issue in his presidency and it think would be helpful to get beyond the rather hollow "reform" language that isn't particularly informative. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 03:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, so I tried to find a good source with the key components (I thought Obama layed out 10 or so criteria that he said needed to be met?), but I couldn't find a good one. Using this source from the New York Times [17], I think something along the lines of:
...in regards to this edit, (and I'm just commenting on what caught my eye at first glance and out of my own possible flawed memory which are located in my guts): His "key campaign promise..." did include mandatory health coverage for children, not for every American as Clinton proposed. Although this was later changed at some point after he was elected. Also the "public option", I think, was his wish but not a clear promise back then. Besides the above it needs some ce but if the edit should get consensus in general there sure will be some and the only open question is if this should be worked out at the talk page first or edited as needed in the article itself. The Magnificent Clean-keeper ( talk) 20:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
BHO is very articulate and good looking, many have said so, though some people saying so said it in a gaffe-ish way (Reid, Biden, Berluscone). Valid to add a short part there. Per another user's instructions, I'm following them and mentioning it here. JB50000 ( talk) 04:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Barack Obama is half white and the definition does not mention this. I do not look at him as a black president, he had a black father and white mother. He is also not African-American, he is black and white mix. The term African-American applies to people that lived in Africa and then came to America either by force during slavery or by choice after slavery was abolished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ItTakesACarter2GetaReagan ( talk • contribs) 03:56, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
The spoken version of the article is far out of date (Sept. 3, 2008) . The link should be disabled until an up-to-date version is available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seanturvey ( talk) 12:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Citation #2 needs revision or update, Birth certificate is no longer located at this address. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.154.248.73 ( talk) 20:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I removed this bit:
It is sourced to an interview of Obama.
ref name="autogenerated1" Obama Calls for U.S. Military to Renew Focus on Afghanistan /ref
This isn't adequate for a statement of fact of this type. I'm also concerned about the accuracy, since I think the drawdown of troops was already planned (and underway?) before Obama took office. Can someone find a better source(s) and propose an accurate description of events based on them? ChildofMidnight ( talk) 04:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
Collapsing DD2K ( talk) 03:53, 5 January 2010 (UTC) |
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Im want add this iformation about president"s controvery, but page it semi-protectet. Cant im add this content, or americans peoples can not tolerate the truth, but "inconvenient" information about their politicians? Wikipedia tries to act as nezávyslý source infromací, and instead gives you only the word 'comfortable' articles and the "most appropriate" information. What is the objectivity? "Barack Obama was forced to face the accusations, maintaining long-term friendship with prominent American terrorists Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrnovou, former leader of the terrorist group Weatherman, which currently is one of the prominent leaders of the extreme left Chicago. [16] However, it showed that he had with Ayers close relationship [17]. Obama previously appointed her husband for green jobs, Van Jones. He previously led the San Francisco Center for Human Rights, focusing on social injustice and collective rights. When the 1992 fires in the Los Angeles race riots, revolutionary essay he wrote: "We are fighting for justice, our goal is to change the system! Yes, a great revolutionary moment finally arrived. This is our hour, "[18] Mentor young Barry Obama in Hawaii was the Negro communist activist and writer, Frank Marshall Davis, who was in the fifties (Mccarthysmus) investigated by the U.S. Chamber of Deputies Committee on un-American activities. Now Davis persuaded the young Obama, which raised his white grandparents from mother's side, the more stressed his black identity and his first name used but not Barry, but Barack. Obama's wife Michelle during her studies at Princeton is famous works, which described two possible position on the Negro in American society: integrationist and segregacionistický. Integrationist means of the values of American (ie white, capitalist) society and may be a way to success. One can, however, it also in its look as a betrayal černošskosti. His friends also include the radical pastor Jeremiah Wright. Among his ideas is the claim that HIV was deliberately invented by the U.S. government and used as a weapon against blacks and accused the U.S. government of plotting the attacks of September 11. [19] Wright is one of Obama's close friends, Obama met with him in the eighties .. Obama, Wright and his wife Michelle gave himself, as well as baptized their two daughters. Relations between him and the reverend married Obama's been warm. Barack Obama in 2008, however, distanced himself from Reverend Wright. In the past, there were also some doubts about the authenticity of Obama's birth certificate [20]. Target of sharp criticism was his effort with the help of subsidies to promote both the industry and ecology, especially the production of cars with electric drive. The Wall Street Journal Europe declared that part of his policy for disaster. [21]" -- Fredy.00( talk) 16:20, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
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This article reads like it was written by supporters trying to seem neutral. There is almost no skeptisism of anything in his life, record, deeds or other. I can find several examples in almost every paragraph. Here's just one:
"In June, Obama, unsatisfied with the pace of economic stimulus investment, called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending over the next week. In March, Obama's Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, took further steps to manage the financial crisis, including introducing the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in depreciated real estate assets that were deemed to be weighing down stock valuations, freezing the credit market and delaying economic recovery."
So first, saying what his motivation was to increase spending is very subjective. The administration claims he was unsatisfied with the levels of spending, but for all we know he was unsatisfied with the poll numbers relating to the levels of spending. Also, to say that the assets were "depreciated" is not accurate. They were "toxic", but "depreciated" is what happens to disposable assets like trucks... a truck is say $10,000 when you buy it. The first year, you use $2,000 worth of it, so it has depreciated 20% annually. These mortgage assets were bad investments. They didn't depreciate, they collapsed because they had no valuable use, like a truck does. Next, the weren't "deemed to be weighing down the stock valuations". They were "claimed by Treasury, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street to be weighing down bank balance sheets." These toxic securities weren't stocks, they were derivatives. The stock valuations of FINANCIAL FIRMS ONLY were weighed down by TOXIC ASSETS on their BALANCE SHEETS because the ASSETS they held in reserve (their capitalization) had a much higher book value than market value. Next, Geithner is not "Obama's Treasury Secretary". He is the Secretary of the Treasury for the United States of America, not Obama. Last, to say that all this was "delaying economic recovery" is a guess, not a fact. Actually, nothing in the world says there MUST be an economic recovery at all, and this article assumes there will be and that it was delayed somehow by toxic assets. As a matter of fact, these assets did not "delay recovery", they created the need for a recovery by creating an economic crash.
I rewrite this whole page, and start with this paragraph. Here's how it should read:
"In June, Obama called on his cabinet to accelerate the spending of stimulus money over the next week, claiming that he was unsatisfied with the pace of spending to date. In March, Treasury Secretary, Timothy Geithner, introduced the Public-Private Investment Program, which contains provisions for buying up to $2 trillion in toxic real estate derivatives that were deemed to be weighing down the balance sheets of banks, freezing the Inter-Bank credit markets where banks lend to each other for fear of unknown exposure to these toxic assets." Zodiacww ( talk) 08:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Another editor said that this article was one of the best in Wikipedia. This kind of attitude risks patting ourselves on the back. This article is in great need of fixing.
Here's one thing that should be deleted. Mention of the Ledbetter Goodyear law. It is a mere technicality, something that is of interest to lawyers practicing employment law. It is a mere technical matter on statute of limitations. This should be removed so that other areas can be expanded. Using the lingo as others use, it is undue weight to give such a technicality coverage in this article of Obama's life. JB50000 ( talk) 06:16, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Domestic policy as president
The article lists 6 things, Goodyear Ledbetter (a highly technical law about statute of limitations), Sotomayer, Climate gases, children's health, stem cell research, and hate crimes. This is a poor choice of 6 things. I've replaced the weakest one (statute of limitations law) with the estate tax debate. Obama wants to keep the 2009 level. He couldn't get it passed in time so the tax was discontinued but will be increased to a much higher rate in 2011. Obama is still working on it so that it won't be as high as the 2011 rate. The climate gasses and Sotomayer are two of the strongest of the 6 and should remain.
JB50000 (
talk)
06:27, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Let's get some people to improve the 6 or so items that we pick. For example, the climate control wording is poor. We just say that he proposed. What about Copenhagen when he told the world what he wanted. Not mentioning Copenhagen weakens the climate part and makes it look like a list of dates...on Jan 1 he did this. On Feb 2, he did that.
We can do it if we stop patting ourselves on the back. JB50000 ( talk) 06:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The reference does not agree with what someone put in wikipedia.
Wikipedia: After a prolonged effort to find a church to attend regularly in Washington, complicated by security concerns among other issues, Obama announced in June 2009 that his primary place of worship would be the Evergreen Chapel at Camp David.[209]
What Time Magazine actually said: A number of factors drove the decision — financial, political, personal — but chief among them was the desire to worship without being on display
The Secret Service are not idiots. They know how to protect a President in a dangerous foreign country so a little church is a piece of cake.
Fixed. Any disagreement, find a reference better than Time. JB50000 ( talk) 08:38, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I do not understand all the details of American politics but coming to Wikipedia and this article does not help.
Barack Obama called for universal health care. His health care plan called for the creation of a National Health Insurance Exchange that would include both private insurance plans and a Medicare-like government run option. Coverage would be guaranteed regardless of health status, and premiums would not vary based on health status either. It would have required parents to cover their children, but did not require adults to buy insurance.[76][77][78]
Yet, some time later, President Obama did want to require that all adults buy insurance.
When did the change occur? Sounds like a major expense to me and would be a major change. Could it be in his health care section or politicial parties section. I cannot do it myself because I do not understand all the details of American politics but can see that there is a major shift that is not described. Maybe it was after he became President??? Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 20:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
He won the Nobel Peace Prize. The prestige should not be diminished by Obama-haters and put in the image section. His image is that he is tall and articulate. A Nobel Prize is an honor. Where else can it be? Under Presidency? JB50000 ( talk) 08:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Please read the following article: http://www.aclu.org/national-security/obama-administration-misses-deadline-close-guantanamo
And from the main article of Obama: "and ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp "as soon as practicable and no later than" January 2010"
Obviously we need to expand this text, regarding that the deadline missed. PeterXaver ( talk) 01:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
Another account whose first edit is here, looking to insert criticisms? Hrmmm.... Tarc ( talk) 00:56, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I assume there was a big discussion on this but I can't find it in the archives. Why is there no mention of Obama's memoir in his BLP? It was clearly a literary achievement.-- Jarhed ( talk) 01:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Collapsing-Trolling does't need 'translation'. WP:NOTAFORUM DD2K ( talk) 15:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC) |
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translating into Wikipedia lingoThere was some comments by another user, since removed, which is translated below. I'm not sure about the first one but the next two may have some merit depending on sources found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB50000 ( talk • contribs) 06:40, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
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Why is the WP:LEAD section so darn short? In absolutely no way "able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article". For such an extremely long article/subarticles, I would sure expect more than this. A significant portion of the article is not summarized in the lead. In no way is it even vaguely adequate to stand alone. Reywas92 Talk 19:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, I will make a few comments. I was about to post the just about same thing as Frank, but he relayed it better. I'm sure if someone wants to make an constructive addition that would enhance the article, editors would have no problem with that. Now, on the page size. I don't have the tools for the Dr pda script, but the page size calculator gives the size of the page at over 736 KB and states it would take a 56K modem over 107 seconds to load the page. We have to remember that page size includes pictures too. In any case, I do believe the leade fits right in with Wiki standards, but there is always room for improvement. DD2K ( talk) 23:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I DO NOT support either of these theories, but should they be mentioned here? Why do so many people think these weird things? I mean, we should try to add a little note about this. I'm neutral about Obama, but I think it is essential to add current social perceptions about any issue. If you think we shouldn't, though, just delete everything I wrote...I'm not the argument kinda person...Have a nice day, guys (whatever you do)! ^_^ Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 20:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Come on, Scjessey, that's kinda...POV, to me, but as I said, I really, really don't want to make a big deal out of this. By the way, I haven't edited the article. But it is an interesting point...false, perhaps, but maybe not completely non-notable. But I doubt that's for me to decide. Anyway, ^_^! Have a fantastic day (or evening)! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 21:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I am pretty sure that if you look you'll find either Hitler comparisons or anti-Christ comparisons to many past presidents. And I am talking about claims made while they were president. Nixon was one of the unique individuals who got both (so did Kissinger for that matter). Every Pope for god knows how long as well as many prime ministers of England, France, Germany and Italy have all gotten "potential anti-Christ" write ups from someone or another. My point is that calling a president a potential anti-Christ is actually not unique or noteworthy. Chalk it up to the amount of power America has post WWII and the fact that the book of Revelations is heavily cryptic, often vague and uses very esoteric references. Many Christians don't even attempt to decipher the book and there are many who think they know what is in there but don't. Take the Left Behind books, most of that stuff is blatantly just made up and pretty bizarre interpretations of what is there but people take it at face value because almost no one is willing to unpack such a complex work. Throw in how vague and cryptic it can be and the book can be spun into arguing that almost any powerful person fits "the signs." So no I don't think it should be added to Obama any more than it should be added to various Popes over the years or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or Nixon, etc. Jdlund ( talk) 23:41, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Also, we only mention in passing the possibility of the Pope being the Anti-Christ, which is way more likely than Obama; Obama being the anti-Christ is based on his political views, whereas the Pope can somewhat reasonably be hypothesised as the anti-Christ. Sceptre ( talk) 17:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
OMG, I so did NOT want to offend any1 with this, AT ALL. (why do ppl, like this random japanese guy (or gal) I've never talked to ask me rlly random questions on my talk page, i dont know, maybe its because of this). plz, though, I'm really srry for posting this...wait, dude, scepter, why is the pope the antichrist? (just wondering...) GUYS, have a fantastic and smashing day! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 21:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
This article needs to be renamed "Barack Obama and American history since 2009". Instead of renaming it, we must focus on the man, not U.S. history. If he is involved, mention it. If he is just peripherally involved, do not mention it. Judith Merrick ( talk) 01:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I would agree with you Judith, but the History must be written at a later date. My College History books (1492-1785 and 1786-Present) will have a third companion. "9-11-2001 to Present". The 1786 to present book will need to be completed and ended. The most current book will not be able to be written for many years, and in my opinion and therefore not credited, will begin at 9-11 and not BHO. We are living in variable times in which the balance could be shifted to one side or the other. The balance was lowered in 2008, and we (freedom and liberty loving Americans) are on an upswing now (as of 2-5-2010), but the "History" is still unwritten and YOU will have the ability to contribute to the cause of Freedom in America in the future. Those persons in control of what gets written right here on Wikipedia, just like yourself, will have a voice in the account of these days. I ask of you to stay vigilant and keep those who alter without citation to be held accountable. This also includes yourself and myself. Keep up the good work and refresh yourself, as I will, on the rules of proper content and editing. As long as we both hold the TRUTH as a torch, those who would wish to extinguish it, will not have the breathe.Bikeric (talk) 06:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
This section has been rewritten with the above comments in mind. Most information has been kept but now the emphasis is on health care as it related to Obama, not just a general U.S. current events lesson. Here it is: JB50000 ( talk) 04:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Changes in health care was one of Obama's key campaign promises and a top legislative goal.[156] He has proposed an expansion of health insurance coverage to cover the uninsured. As a candidate for President, he distinguished his proposals from that of his Democratic rival, Hillary Rodham Clinton, by not requiring Americans to purchase health insurance.[157][158] By June, 2009, he began to advocate a requirement that Americans purchase health insurance.[159][160] As President, his proposal would spend $900 billion over 10 years and include a government insurance plan (option) to compete with the private sector. It would also make it illegal for insurers to drop sick people or deny them coverage for pre-existing conditions, and require every American carry health coverage. The plan also includes Medicare spending cuts and taxes on insurance companies that offer expensive plans and a tax on implanted medical devices, such as artificial knees and heart valves.[161] Obama originally set deadlines for Congress to pass health care legislation by August, 2009.[162] On September 9, 2009, during the Congressional summer, Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress where he addressed concerns over his administration's proposals.[163]
President Barack Obama's signature on the memorandum expanding funding for health clinics across the country. December 9, 2009.A health care bill, after the inclusion of the Stupak–Pitts Amendment, allowed passage in the House.[164][165] On December 24, 2009, a version of the bill was passed in the Senate[166] after concessions were offered the Senator Ben Nelson, the remaining Democratic holdout.[167][168] However, the January 19, 2010 election of Republican Scott Brown from a heavily Democratic state, Massachusetts, was reported in the press as a sign of voter dissatisfaction with health care legislation.[169][170] After the election of Brown, Obama called on Congress not to "jam" legislation before Brown was seated in the Senate and suggested he open to scaled back health care legislation.[171] Obama then focused on the economy amid speculation that he would announce a scaled down health plan during his State of the Union address in late January, 2010.[172]
This section badly needs updating since it says the Senate and House passed health care legislation. That is not accurate since Reid and Pelosi are trying to figure out what to do now that Scott Brown won in what was suppose to be a safe Democratic state. A really neutral wording, focusing on Obama and what Obama himself is saying can be:
After the January 19, 2010 election of Republican Scott Brown from a heavily Democratic state, Massachusetts, Obama called on Congress not to "jam" legislation before Brown was seated in the Senate and suggested he was open to scaled back health care legislation.[171](reference 171 is an article that has the word "jam" in the title and is about scaled back legislation) Obama then focused on the economy amid reports that he would announce a scaled down health plan during his State of the Union address in late January, 2010.[172] (Reference 172 specifically is a CNN article entitled something like "Obama refocuses on the economy")
JB50000 ( talk) 07:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
A Miller Center reference, which is just a summary without references, not a primary source, is used to justify Christianity as Obama's religion. That same reference lists his occupation as community organizer and public official. They do not list him as lawyer, author, or constitutional law scholar. If they are that sloppy or inaccurate, they are an unreliable source. If they are deemed reliable, then that source advocates occupation: community organizer and public official.
My opinion: Let's use only reliable sources. If our arguments or edits use unreliable sources, those edits are no good for this article. I think the Miller Center reference is unreliable unless others can convince me otherwise. JB50000 ( talk) 05:02, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
But I also cited the Washington Post article from February 4th, 2010 that stated:Obama has told White House aides that instead of joining a congregation in Washington, D.C., he will follow in George W. Bush's footsteps and make his primary place of worship Evergreen Chapel, the nondenominational church at Camp David
I hope this is satisfactory, although the footnotes for that section is getting pretty long. We are going to have to trim it down when the situation is more clear. DD2K ( talk) 06:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)Obama prays privately...when he takes his family to Camp David on the weekends, a Navy chaplain ministers to them.
Let's focus the discussion on the original topic, judging the references. When a major newspaper reports something, they are usually considered reliable even though errors do happen from time to time. This Miller Center thing looks like these factcheck.org or other think tank summaries. Does Miller have errors? This section is not about religion, it's about references. We should always strive for the best references. JB50000 ( talk) 06:18, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Is Politico considered reliable? How about Huffington Post? JB50000 ( talk) 06:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Nothing is said on the attempts on his life of which there were allegedly four. Kind of useful information considering 99.236.221.124 ( talk) 05:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
THERE IS AN ERROR IN THE ETHNICITY OF PRESIDENT OBAMA. HE SHOULD BE LISTED AS THE FIRST BIRACIAL PRESIDENT. THAT IS SIMPLY FACT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.14.224.98 ( talk) 07:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Because of a mix-up with the words during Obama's actual inauguration, he decided to be sworn in a second time the next day "out of an abundance of caution". There is a reasonably in-depth mention in the Presidency of Barack Obama page, but what is the consensus on whether it belongs on this page or not? Here is my source: [20].-- Mister Zoo ( talk) 14:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
It seems as though the general consensus is against putting this into the main biographical article. Given that it is covered well in some of the other "Obama Group" articles, I will leave things as they are unless someone else comes in with a strong support for its inclusion. However, I think that any mention of it in other Obama-related articles should remain there. Thanks for all the comments.-- Mister Zoo ( talk) 18:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
A few things are definitely historical when that happen. 11th September 2001 is one of them. Others, not so certain.
Obama is going to cancel plans for American human exploration of the moon and Mars. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8489097.stm This is possibly historic but it would be useful to have a sticky so that a year from now we can see what is historic and was is not.
I am very much involved in the notability discussion among different editors (for example, is Balloon Boy notable, how about the murder of ____). While the notability discussion involves if an article is notable, to some extent, inclusion of information in article should be notable, though the criteria is a bit less strict. By having a sticky, we then can decide after a year or so, what is notable enough for this article.
Cheers, Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 16:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
We haven't had a man on the Moon since 1972. In fact, the entirety of America's adventures on the moon, spurred on by John F. Kennedy, span three and a half years in the first term of Richard Nixon, from July 16, 1969, to December 14, 1972. (Of course in Nixon's two terms there were two recessions, record postwar unemployment, horrible stagflation, a stock market crash, an oil crisis and two wars [counting Vietnam and the Cold War] before Nixon left office, all of which had something to do with that.)
Not that it's intended that way, but "List of possibly historic events..." is a coatrack waiting to happen. Anything that is not now notable but in the future turns out to be evidently historic should be discussed at the point of that historical hindsight, and not strung along here with all its bastard cousins in tow, growing fringier and more populated until then. Abrazame ( talk) 19:18, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
This article inaccurately states that "from ages six to ten, Obama attended local schools in Jakarta" and that he first returned to Hawaii in 1971. In fact, it has been confirmed by the President, and with photographic evidence, that Obama spent at least part of third grade back at Noelani Elementary School. In December 2009, the Honolulu Star Bulletin published a story with a picture of Obama with former third grade Noelani classmate Scott Inoue, who confirmed that Obama was there for at least part of 1969. The article also notes that Obama signed the photograph and sent Inoue a thank you note:
http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20091228_third_grade_photo_captures_obamas_grin.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 17:20, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091201/A_LIFE1201/912010313/-1/a_life
The picture was also published in Hawaii Business Magazine, the same source you use to substantiate his attendance at Noelani for Kindergarten.
But if you don't include this information, I'd like a little clarification on Wikipedia's policy. You state rather unambiguously that Obama was born in Kapiolani Medical center, even though no one -- not Obama, not the hospital, not a person like Scott Inoue -- has ever asserted that fact. It's just an UNSOURCED claim in a number of newspapers. Why is this SOURCED claim in several Hawaiian newspapers insufficient? Why are you suddenly looking behind the reporting and weighing the credibility of sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 00:09, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
No, you're quite wrong about where I saw the Kapiolani reference. I saw it at the page on Obama's early years and career. That page does - indeed! - purport to identify each school Obama attended and when. Notably, the page even contains a separate chart listing the schools and dates. Yet, when I added this fully, reliably sourced, acknowledged-by-the-President-with-photographic-proof information regarding Obama's attendance at Noelani, some editor deleted (vandalized ) the page on grounds that Mr. Inoue was not credible. In contrast, Kapiolani remains in the article even though no reliable source attributes that information to any person or document at all (if you can identity the person or document claiming that Kapiolani is Obama's birth hospital, please do so now.
As to your discounting of Obama's third grade attendance as mere "sentimental" interest, the same can be said of any of the information regarding Obama's elementary (and secondary) school education. But the question is factuality and sourcing. The information regarding his third grade education is at least (if not better) sourced than the information you have chosen to include regarding any other years of his education. So your only choice is either to delete all the educational information or include the new information regarding his third grade attendance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 18:27, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Oh my gosh, I don't know what's totally going on here, but, guys, please be nice to each other. I mean, all Wikipedians are buddies together, right? Like, seriously, this isn't too big of an issue, dudes. Have a fantastic day, all! Celestialwarden11 ( talk) 22:13, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
IF it's not on this page, then you shouldn't be bitching about it on this talk page, but at that article, where you had added the information before coming here.
How silly! I didn't say I ONLY saw the reference to Kapiolani on the early years article. That's where I first saw the reference, and where I first attempted to add the new information about third grade. I cannot add information to this article because it is locked.
But the Kapiolani information is ALSO included in this article. Because it is less sourced than the information about Obama's third grade attendance, it should be removed, and the information about his third grade attendance should be added. What's so hard about saying "from ages six to ten, with the exception of part of third grade, Obama attended school in Jakarta"?
The question is one of notability and relevance. That he spent a few months back in Hawa'ii in the third grade has little relevance to his actions and positions as a president.
Nor does the fact that he spent ages 6-10 in Jakarta have much relevance, but it's there. As is the reference, in this article, to his birth at Kapiolani.
If I'm wrong about that, the place to argue the incredible importance would be at that other page, the one you ALREADY edited. This complaint here is about you getting attention.
I will indeed bring the argument over to the other page, but continue to argue that it be added to this article as well. The complaint here is about the article being accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthfulPerson ( talk • contribs) 21:27, 16 February 2010
I see we've gone from "Kapiolani is not in this article" to "Noelani isn't properly sourced" to "Noelani should be on another page," to "he only visited Noelani in third grade" to "so what if he spent half of third grade in Hawaii" to "you're a birther." I guess neener neener neener is next.
I think what you meant to say, Abrazame, is that you're a Wikipedia newbie with no clue as to what WP:Weight and WP:Source mean. It wouldn't be giving undue wight to throw in a line saying that "Except for part of third grade, Obama spent ages 6-10 in schools in Jakarta." It would simply be accurate based on the undisputed testimonial and photographic evidence -- the very same evidence that supports the claim that he spent Kindergarten at Noelani. And I can't imagine why you say it's "not simply poor sourcing", when there's no problem with the sourcing at all. Quite frankly, I see very few claims in the rest of the article which are supported by signed-by-the-president photographs.
Furthermore, if you are indeed familiar with sourcing and weight, you'd remove the claim regarding the Kapiolani birthplace. It's an embarrassment that it's been included here. It's just an unattributed statement in a couple of newspapers, never documented or corroborated by a human source. TruthfulPerson ( talk) 16:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Hello Barack Obama editors. I have created a draft article on the international media reaction to Obama's 2008 election here and would like to solicit your feedback. Please leave comments and suggestions on the page's talk page here. Thank you -- Amandaroyal ( talk) 01:42, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
Other presidents are linked like "John_F._Kennedy" with a middle initial - why is the link for this president not Barack_H._Obama? This creates inconsistency with others and appears to reduce stature of this person.
188.194.100.217 ( talk) 08:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Not a big deal, but this sentence does not have a cite. Either of these should suffice: [22] [23] 71.57.126.233 ( talk) 21:21, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
I object, Socks, the First Cat is not mentioned in Bill Clinton's article!! Besides, Bo is the girls' dog, not Barack's. See http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/09/04/12/Meet-Bo-the-First-Dog/ (The Obamas welcome Bo, a six-month old Portuguese water dog and a gift from Senator and Mrs. Kennedy to Sasha and Malia) so Wikipedia is wrong. Bo is not Barack's dog. Socks the First Cat ( talk) 00:24, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
The campaign is over. The political positions sections need to go. If not, it doesn't represent his positions too well. Keeping it represents the dumbing down of Wikipedia because it is way too simple and not even accurate. JB50000 ( talk) 07:07, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like a synthetic argument to me. Malke 2010 18:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
You seem upset. Please stay on topic, and WP:CIVIL. I was asked by another editor why I felt there needed to be a controversy section. I answered. Then you came back with your question. I answered in a polite and informed manner. Malke 2010 18:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
(ui) back to the original question, I think that "positions" per se are a lot less important to a sitting president than a candidate. During the election one can look at a candidate's proposals, policy platform, record, and stated positions, and probably a few other things. Once elected their actual performance in office becomes relatively more important. This article, and even more so the child articles, suffer a bit by conflating all of these things. Making a speech announcing your position on something is a lot different than getting legislation passed (or signing it despite reservations). - Wikidemon ( talk) 20:43, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
There's already been useful comments, such as that this section is better for candidates that are running, that there is the problem of positions changing so do we use the current one and ignore the old one or just show how it's been slightly modified. If Magnificant Clean-keeper is saying bye-bye, he can leave but should not close the discussion.
So focusing the discussion...one question is if we should keep it only current or make it the history of his positions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JB50000 ( talk • contribs)
This article has some summary style accounts of some major policy issues during Obama's first year in office [24]. It's a very liberal source (LA Times) so it's quite flattering and leaves out the unfavorables, but I still thought it was interesting and might be worth using as an article source. I think more substance on the most notable aspects of Obama's career needs to be added as it develops and the depictions his previous campaigns and platform are overdue for trimming. I'm making this a subsection of the above discussion as it seems to relate to that discussion in some respects. As there's been action on his policy positions, that content needs to be worked in and some of the lesser spin and fluff removed. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 02:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Obama's health care position has changed somewhat. During the campaign, he was against the public option but now he's for it. However, he will not join a jihad for it and is probably willing to let it go. Dumb down Wikipedia and what are you going to say? Obama is for Obamacare?
In selecting positions, who is to say that his Venezuela position is not notable or not to be mentioned, yet the obscure subject of Dafur is mentioned. The economy, especially the banks, is a big position (he favors taxing transactions and really taxing the greedy bankers) yet nothing is mentioned. On the other hand, teacher pay is mostly at the local level so why have any mention of it?
This selection of topics has components of original research, which is forbidden.
There are two possible selections. #1 is to rewrite it to the level of a featured article or #2 is to get rid of it. Now it is so far from a featured article that any high school senior writing it for history class would get an F. JB50000 ( talk) 05:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
As an engineer, I prefer numbers. Could there possibly be a spot in this "First year in office" section which involves the employment of the American citizen? I have no problem with citing the actual numbers of employed Americans on day one of inauguration and with the shrunken number 1 year later. We should not have the number as a percentage, due to unreliable percentages from the source. We should keep the numbers as whole and real as reported by the IRS. The number should be the population minus number of full-time-tax-paying jobs. This would be very easy to report the difference within a one year time-span. Any objections? Bikeric ( talk) 06:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
The problem continues. This section is full of original research ideas justified with references. The choice of topics is purely original research. Even the writing is inaccurate and biased. Look here as an example...
Obama has supported eliminating taxes for senior citizens with incomes of under $50,000, and raising taxes on income over $250,000, on capital gains, and on dividends.[169] He has also supported simplifying tax filings and removing loopholes.[170]
There has been debate to whether Obama is raising taxes for some people by supporting certain health care measures. Some union members with good health insurance will be taxed. Democrat and former Clinton aid Stephanopolis questioned whether the insurance requirement was a tax. This article can't be one sided and just paint part of the picture yet it's also not a debate article. The article should not be about what Obama promised and what the retort is, yet we shouldn't also just be a mouthpiece of the 2008 Obama campaign.
The quote also says that Obama supports simplifying tax filing. He's done nothing in a year so maybe this political position was just a campaign gimmick?
The point is that there is surely a reference to his pledge of simplified taxes but the reference is just repeating a campaign promise. It is not necessarily a major position of Obama because he's done nothing.
So the fairest thing to do would be to get rid of the section. If it is not gotten rid of then every position must be analyzed and proof that it is an important position must be made. That is very hard to achieve. JB50000 ( talk) 06:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to write the article for former Finnish prime minister Aho and came here for comparison. The political position section for Aho is difficult to write. He was against EU membership. Later, he was for it and rightfully brought Finland out of the periphery of Europe by getting EU membership. Now EU membership is a non-issue.
So for Aho, should there be a political positions section? If so, how should it cover his EU position. Also who is to choose which positions to list.(somme issues are obscure, somme issues are hard to say, somme, like the EU are easy). These are difficult questions that I can't answer for Mr. Obama because I even have difficulty answering it for the article on Mr. Aho. If there are any ideas, let me and others know on the Aho talk page. As far as this article, I can only suggest discussion. Suomi Finland 2009 ( talk) 20:06, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't see a consensus to keep this section. On the other hand, there is not a clear consensus to remove the section. There is some mention to trim it.
How about this as a compromise? Trim it down to the basics of the 2008 campaign. Iraq, Guantanamo/treatment of suspected terrorists, tax increases for the $250,000 people, health care, missile defense are probably the main positions. Hurricane Katrina is not a big issue, every politician is opposed to hurricanes. This could be a subsection called "Pre-presidential positions" which could be hidden text. Then in 2012, we could have a "Re-election positions" which would not necessarily be his campaign positions but a summary of his positions in 2012. Those could be very different particularly if there is an al-Qaeda nuclear attack on New York or if Citibank goes bankrupt and takes down the other banks or if there's a giant New Madrid/St. Louis earthquake that flattens St. Louis and Memphis. JB50000 ( talk) 05:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC) Good idea. 2008 positions and later 2012 positions
This appears to be the new consensus. Keep the positions for the 2008 campaign. Actually, I think it's a little like advertising but this is ok. There probably should be a major update in 2011. However, it is very historical that his 2008 positions stay here, like his Iraq opposition (which is almost a non-issue now). JB50000 ( talk) 04:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
We should come to an agreement, everyone of every political opinion and those with no opinion. This is about what we want the article to be.
One possibility is to stick with the facts. Only facts, no conclusion. If it is an opinion, then cut it out.
Another possibility is to allow reliably sourced analysis, but trying to keep the analysis down, when possible. Part of a historical article or biographical article is to analyze history. For example, in World War II, we could just list the battles and when Germany surrendered. Or we can use reliably sourced analysis to explain why the Battle of Britain was won (or lost if you are a German) and how that battle was important for the war. The importance of the Battle of Britain is commonly accepted but cannot be proven. The Iran hostages hurt Jimmy Carter's presidency. That cannot be proven but is thought to be true by reliable sources.
This latter possibility is more educational but more difficult to write.
Which possibility do others prefer? I am very neutral. I think the first one is easier since Obama is a current figure and lean very, very slightly to this choice. However, I can see the better educational value of the latter but at a cost of needing huge discussion for each analysis or opinion put in the article, even if it is the reliable source's opinion, not the Wikipedia editor. Again, please no arguing, just discuss how we should proceed. JB50000 ( talk) 05:22, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Some of the responses are not clear, but to summarize as best I can. If mistaken, feel free to correct:
JB50000: I am very neutral. I think the first one is easier since Obama is a current figure and lean very, very slightly to this choice. (Facts only is easier, analysis difficult)
Wikidemon: Interesting meta-question. Thanks for thinking of that. Although I would prefer the second, I think you're right that it would be very difficult. There's a stalemate that settles in when so many people are watching an article, and also, it's very hard to know how history will judge today's events. For practical reasons I think we have to stick with the facts, then with small pieces of analysis like ... (Prefer analysis but given the difficult, stick with the facts first)
ThuranX: Argumentative, no opinion offered.
Scjessey: This article is meant to reflect (Analysis, not facts only)
So the censensus is best summarized as "think we have to stick with the facts, then with small pieces of analysis" (quote from Wikidemon). So heavily based on facts and, as Wikidemon said, be very careful with any analysis. So if one source says something with analysis, it should be disregarded. JB50000 ( talk) 03:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
So there is general agreement to stick with the facts and be very, very careful if including any analysis and lean towards not having analysis? JB50000 ( talk) 03:41, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
JB50000, isn't this what we already do? Tarc ( talk) 05:06, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Referring to this diff [26] a 12/13 associate or lawyer firm is not small. It is not big but it is somewhere above middle. The vast majority of firms are single practitioners ( American Bar foundation statistical report from 2000 ) and to have 12 or 13 lawyers places this firm in the top (roughly) 30% by numbers of people and into the top 10% by counts of firms. A reference that uses "small" is significantly at odds with what we have as the demographics of firms around that time. I say drop the "small". Ttiotsw ( talk) 08:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
It is not vital, but we must not be sloppy. Some want small. But Wikidemon points out that Time Magazine says tiny, which is not the same as small. We can put 12, like it was. Or we can put that the Chicaco office currently has 10, which the law firms' website says. So my vote is 10 or 12. JB50000 ( talk) 04:46, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
The President of Argentina (right) and President of the United States (left)
2 good photos. JB50000 ( talk) 08:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
I like the top two :) JB50000 ( talk) 04:48, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Okay, for about a year we had eighteen words:
Earlier this month, somebody expanded it to twenty-eight words:
Now we have fifty-two:
Three times as many words, yet not quite three times as much useful information. Because of other distractions, I didn't make an issue of this when the "about twenty years" thing was added, even though that's pretty much a given with a man in his early forties, as nobody starts smoking in their thirties or forties, and as the "before being elected" thing was pretty obvious too. But part of the point of inline citations to web articles is so that when somebody wants to know more detail about a minor issue, they can click and read more at the source. For all of the details one might update, the fact that a current article on a routine check-up spun a positive health report into a smoking headline does not mean we double or triple the size of the issue in this article. His vision is 20/20 in both eyes, but no sentence for that? He takes a nonsteroidal anti-infmammitory for tendinitis, doesn't seem to interest anybody. His cholesterol is up slightly, nobody thinks to add that. But he had a cigarette in June, that's biographical? No.
For pertinence and concision, I am changing to the following:
I am retaining the December 2008 ref to allow interested parties to learn about the White House detail and keep both of the current refs to source the new details. If he does quit, we can shorten it further. If some other detail comes out, we can discuss here whether we add or replace something to include it. Abrazame ( talk) 06:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
(Lizzie Borden profanity) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.64.188.250 ( talk) 23:17, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
The lead should really mention the fact he's originally from Hawaii, if only briefly. 82.124.235.191 ( talk) 17:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)