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I believe the mere fact that many people knew him as "Barry" during his youth and even his college years is worth mentioning in the entry, if only for the reason that such a high-profile person was known by a name different than the one he is known by now. Here is the newsweek article about when he decided to go by his formal name.... http://www.newsweek.com/id/128633/output/print (UTC) June 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.202.146 ( talk • contribs)
The college nickname was on a Newsweek cover "How Barry became Barack" a while back. So it's gotten some media mention. I'm sure it's true that right-wing blogs are trying to insinuate that he's hiding something, or covering up something,or whatever, which is silly. The Newsweek piece was actually pretty silly too: it was a positive spin that purported to explore the meanings of cultural identities or the like. In reality, it means about as much as John F. Kennedy using the nickname "Jack". Still, that nickname is mentioned in that article. A brief mention in "Early Life" seems quite appropriate. LotLE× talk 16:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm aware of the controversy involving the use of "professor", however I think the current lead doesn't suggest the right timeline, and regardless of whether "professor" is used should be fixed. It currently says:
Whether professor or not, he taught at UC from 1992 to 2004. This sentence at least strongly implies he stopped teaching after being elected to the Illinois Senate in 1997. I'm not sure how to fix this other than adding another sentence, perhaps:
I don't care about "professor" vs. "taught" but I think the time interval should be addressed. Flaming about this is probably not a good idea, but please comment. -- Rick Block ( talk) 03:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd ask editors from both "sides" to accept a compromise while discussion continues. It includes all the recently added context (including conviction and that Rezko was a prevalent fundraiser), but without a laundry list of charges and other politicians Rezko's contributed to. Shem (talk) 04:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not fine at all, and it is not fine in a way that puts the article in violation of numerous guidelines and policies. The article violates policies regarding sections that are supposed to be summaries of linked articles, regarding article length, and regarding neutrality & undue weight. The default consensus is always against the addition of material. Adding material carries the burden of proof. It has to, otherwise you get a license for disruption that works like so:
That what's going on here, and it is garbage. To excuse or back down from it in the name of consensus only legitimizes a way of editing without consensus. The basic rule must be observed: adding material carries the burden of proof. No consensus is required to remove material that was added without consensus. Those who edit war over this point must be blocked, or the principle of consensus is subverted. Life.temp ( talk) 09:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like very much to take a 30-day voluntary break from all Obama-related articles. But I would like a commitment from the involved administrators that they are going to monitor the conduct of a small but determined group of exclusionists on these articles.
User:Life.temp gutted the article, removing a total of 732 words in two consecutive edits: [1] [2] I placed the following warning on his/her Talk page and on the article Talk page: [3] He/she removed the warning from the user Talk page with a personal attack in the edit summary [4] and discussed this warning in two edits on the article Talk page, [5] [6] proving that he/she had seen the warning and was aware of increased concerns about edit warring. Nevertheless, last night Life.temp again gutted the article, ripping out nearly 1,000 words this time: [7] None of these edits were accompanied by anything resembling consensus.
It is obvious that Life.temp's goal is to expunge any controversy from the article. This goes hand in hand with similarly intentioned efforts by User:Scjessey, User:Loonymonkey, User:Wikidemo and User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters. I request a block of at least 24 hours for Life.temp, a warning for the other four, and a seven-day topic ban for all five of them. Thank you. Kossack4Truth ( talk) 11:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I have restored, as closely as reasonably possible, the Rezko paragraph version at the time that protection was removed. The only significant differences are K4T's addition of AFP, a reliable source that no one has objected to, and the correct listing of the charges for which Rezko was convicted, as the AFP article confirms. I don't see how anyone can object to a correct listing of the charges. Other than that, it's exactly the same as the protected version.
If you want to change it, get consensus first. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 17:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed an error in the article. It states that Obama was a law professor, but in fact he was only a lecturer. This error needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdemarre ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
According to his birth certificate, which can be viewed here: http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg his legal name is in fact not Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. but Barack Hussein Obama II. Is this worth changing, or are the two interchangable enough that it doesn't have to be changed? DanyaRomulus ( talk) 15:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
As per his birth certificate, released to Daily Kos ( http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg), he's Barack Obama II, not Barack Obama, Jr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.147.254 ( talk) 15:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
We should use the most common version of full name (per WP:NAMES, not per se the form listed on a birth-certificate). A quick "Google test" shows far more hits on the "Jr." form than the "II" form (i.e. over an order of magnitude). LotLE× talk 20:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The case for calling him Barack Obama, Jr. in the lead instead of Barack Obama II just got weaker. His campaign has posted a small copy of his birth certificate on this campaign website, and it clearly shows Barack Obama II (there's a better version published by Daily Kos from an image given to them by the Obama campaign here). Combine that with his brother's statement that I quoted from higher up in this section and the case has gotten considerably stronger for calling him "II" instead of "Jr." It's an odd situation: We have lots of media reports calling him "Jr." but the most solid reports say "II". With as many media reports as we have, it seems worthwhile to include both and explain the matter. Should it be done in the lead or in his early life section? Should we continue calling him "Jr" in the first line and not mention "II"? Noroton ( talk) 21:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
[Related to above mention of contributors' back-and-forth contributions/deletions of disputed info]: Important. Would Wikipedians pleeease stop removing mention, within McCain and Obama bios' campaign sections, of each one of the primary political conflicts between the two campaigns, as summarized by most observers?
Which, with regard to Obama, includes his friendship with Dr. Ayers: "The raw material for swift-boating this year is already apparent. There is Obama's loony pastor, his friendship with a former radical, his dealings with a convicted financial sleaze. McCain's friendship with a woman lobbyist is an issue the New York Times fumbled, but it could resurface. McCain was one of the Keating Five, tied to a financial and influence scandal from the early '90s that could be brought down from the attic. And there is his alleged bad temper, a potentially legitimate issue that could be blended with his age in unsavory ways."----MICHAEL KINSLEY ( — Justmeherenow ( ) 08:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC))
All right then, stop disrupting this discussion with your ugly accusations and take them to a moderator. There's a "Suspected Sock puppets" page, and I've been posting on it. Take your accusations there, and see if a moderator will take you seriously. If they won't, then may I suggest that in the interests of civility, you should give it up, Jack? 70.9.18.59 ( talk) 20:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
These issues of connections with politically controversial figures--in the context of the Presidential campaign--belong in the article on his campaign. They don't belong in the general biography. That article already goes into great detail on much of this. Repeating it in this general article on his life is bad form, and an obvious political agenda. Please don't be a dick for your ideals. Thanks. Life.temp ( talk) 08:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Justmeherenow is right. Wikipedia should dutifully reflect what the secondary sources (major news media) believe relevant. It is not character assassination to neutrally report what these neutral sources are saying. Is it a "calculated partisan attack" to accurately and neutrally describe Rezko's criminal felony convictions, and accurately and neutrally describe Rezko's real estate deals and fundraising efforts for Obama? WorkerBee74 ( talk) 15:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
To everyone who reads this, please stand back and do not edit war over the Tony Rezko section - or any section - of this article! If you can, please take a deep breath, have a cup of tea, be patient. Even if you think that means leaving the wrong version in place, that's better than destabilizing an article read by 250K people per day. Please? Thanks, Wikidemo ( talk) 03:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
It's time to discuss a return to the protected version of this article for the presidential campaign and personal life sections. All edits made after protection was removed were unsupported by consensus. The large scale deletions by Life.temp, a sockpuppet account that has now been blocked, briefly destabilized the article, allowing other edits to slip in that had no consensus. These unsupported edits should now be reverted to create the starting point for further discussion and consensus building. State support or opposition to this, and briefly state your good reasons below. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 12:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
* Strongly Oppose Your proposal is based on the incorrect premise that the version at the moment of article protection is the consensus version and all edits afterwards are against consensus. That's not the case at all. There is no consensus for adding this material and this just sounds like an end-run around consensus. If the version at protection had not included the material you wish to add, it is hard to imagine that you would be using the same rationale. Consensus is not achieved by a roll of the dice. -- Loonymonkey ( talk) 21:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ethnicity wise, he's mixed and biracial. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to just call him the first racially mixed person running for the presidency? Intranetusa ( talk) 23:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Color wise, as the H&K 2 movie puts it, "he's barely even brown."
"He is the first African American to be the presumptive presidential nominee of any major American political party."
Why is this so important that it needs to go in the lead of the article? Seriously, who cares? This is practically suggesting that we should be surprised that a black man is being considered for the Presidency. It's only news in the racially-backwards country in which he's being nominated. I think the rest of the civilized world view this for what it is - unimportant trivia. If anyone is curious about how many black men, brown-eyed men, men who wore pinky-rings, Californian men, men with asthmatic house pets, etc. have run for President, they can just look up the list of presidential candidates and find this info.
Certainly this information is of interest, and I can see mentioning it later in the article (with an appropriate explanation of why this should be considered important - i.e. the struggle for equality among races in the U.S.) but putting it in the lead just suggests that he is somehow less equal because of his colour or that he is a token candidate - something I am sure Mr. Obama himself would deny being. 139.48.25.61 ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I have been wonder this the entire time they have labled Barack as an African-American. How can they do this? Throughout his campain that is one title they use extensively. I'm sure he, just like every other inter-racial person in the United States checks the "other" box on offical documents. So how can he be called the first African-American if his mother is white?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.75.175.171 ( talk) 01:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I actually like a recent addition of Fovean Author: His Kenyan father makes Obama the first American of African descent to be the presumptive nominee of a major political party.
We've had a little brouhaha (minor as this talk page goes) over the use of African-American (vs. bi-racial, mixed heritage, whatever). I think FA's phrase does a nice job of being factual, not-too-wordy, but also avoiding a somewhat loaded term. Moreover, whether or not he's really the first candidate since (whomever) to have a non-American parent, it would be nice to mention that fact in the lead. LotLE× talk 05:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
A problem with "African-American" is that it has multiple meanings/nuances in different communities, or for different readers. Certainly there is the issue of AAs having non-African ancestry (as most do), and the kerfuffle here around whether 2 grandparent is the same as 1 parent or 4 great-grandparents, etc (and whether he should be called "biracial" or the like). But also, for many readers AA insinuates "descendant of American slaves"; there's clearly a certain cultural sense to this, since that diaspora created many cultural forms and identities. In that sense, Obama isn't in the category. Similarly, many recent Caribbean or African immigrants do not self-identify as African-American (despite having the same skin tone and roughly the same ancestry as people who do); as an anecdote, I found it interesting that a friend of mine who is a joint citizen of the USA and a Caribbean nation said that he was not African-American, but any kids he had (here in the USA) would be.
The form that mentions his Kenyan father and African ancestry manages to be more precise without sounding forced or using circumlocution. And contrary to the below discussed Jr/II thing, the "Google test" shows close enough usage. Yeah, the ancestry version is 2-3x less common, but it's not rare (i.e. > 10x predominance of AA). LotLE× talk 20:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Let me restate the problem; on the first paragraph of this entry, we have a statement that is a campaign proclamation of Senator Obama's campaign, but is not factual. Senator Obama claims he will be the first African-American Presidential nominee of a major political party in the United States. In order to test this claim we must establish two facts: 1) That Barack Obama is an African-American. 2) That no previous nominee has been African-American. Let's look at #2 first. Andrew Jackson was 50% black. His older brother was even sold as a slave, which was only legal for blacks. This alone disproves Obama's statement, and is sufficient for removing the campaign propaganda from this article. However, we should, for completeness, examine the first claim as well. We know he is 50% Caucasian. There is evidence he is over 43% Arab. In Kenya, Arab African is a racial classification distinct from African Negro. In the US, since Ex parte Mohriez in 1944, Arabs are considered Caucasian. Thus, legally, Barack Obama is 93% Caucasian. By what stretch of the imagination is a man who is 93+% White and less than 7% Black a Black man? That's a question that isn't to my knowledge answered by US law, but I'd be very surprised if it's never been answered to US courts, because there are many government programs for which that answer would determine eligibility, such as minority preferences in government contracts. In any case, however, the claim in the first paragraph has been proven false, and should be modified at the very least with a disclaimer that the claim is in dispute. - Syberghost ( talk) 01:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
He's not African-America -I can't believe this is not accurately addressed in wikipedia. My mother is from Mongolian and my father is of mixed European descent. I cannot rightly call myself a "mongolian america" any more than Obama called me called a "african-american". The phrase is misleading and people need to respect myself and others of 'mixed race'. There will only be more of us in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.10.241 ( talk) 04:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I see that this conversation has gotten a bit skewed, and I wanted to address the original topic of this section without being associated with the "out there" comments that had gotten inserted; that's the reason for this subsection.
I think that this term, "of African descent" is perfect. In fact, I had originally tried to insert it in the article nearly two years ago. The problem with "African-American" is that it has a connotation very different for many people—namely, someone who is descended from slaves. Indeed, early in his campaign their were a few African-Americans who verbalized that, because of his ancestry, Obama was not "one of them". Now personally, I think that a person's self-identification should be used (unless of course, the person's self-identification is a patent fabrication. Obama does have the right to call himself an African-American. But it would also be equally accurate for us to call him an American of African descent; it doesn't contradict his self-identification, and it respects the logic of those who limit African-Americans to the descendents of slaves.
I don't really care one way or the other. But I think that Fovean Author's suggestion is worth supporting, as it is as NPOV as they come, IMHO. Unschool ( talk) 02:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Why not go by Wikipedia and look up " African American"? :) -- Floridianed ( talk) 19:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
As a history teacher I can't in good conscience let Syberghost's comments go unanswered. The Andrew Jackson "theory," such as it, seems to come from a book by Joel Augustus Rogers written over 40 years ago. I'd never heard of it but it seems to basically be an unsourced and utterly speculative pamphlet written by someone pushing a POV (as we say around these parts). It's also fundamentally wrong from what I can tell. Andrew Jackson's parents were immigrants from Ireland (they were white, as was basically everyone in Ireland at that time). His father died not well before he was born as Rogers seems to contend, but rather just a few weeks prior to Andrew's birth. The claim that Jackson was African American is simply not true and is so fringe and bizarre that I'd never even heard it before (and I'm aware of a lot of fringe theories about American history).
Three of the other presidents Syberghost is mentioning as "black" are Jefferson, Lincoln, and Calvin Coolidge. From what I can tell the rationale for these (coming from Rogers) is also speculative nonsense (for example one of the points against Lincoln is that his opponents drew cartoons of him as though he were black - hardly surprising given Lincoln's opposition to slavery and supposed status as a "Negro lover" in the hateful white supremacist jargon of the day).
For a long time it has been rumored that Warren G. Harding had an African American great grandmother. The rumor was popularized by William Chancellor, a raging racist and partisan Democrat who feared that Harding would be the first black president and was part of some racial conspiracy. Rumors that the Hardings were partially of African descent were in the air in their part of Ohio before Harding ever sought the presidency, but they were never proven then and have never been proven since. It's possible that there is some truth to those rumors, but as of now they remain rumors and nothing more. Thus our best information, based on reliable sources, at this point is that Obama, if elected, would be the first African American president. -- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
If the percentage of various components of one's ancestry are not relevant, then we're all African-Americans, and I'd like to sign my business up as minority-owned for contract preferences please. After all, my ancestors did come from Africa at one point, even if by eventual way of Ireland. - Syberghost ( talk) 17:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
How tall is Obama? Is his height noted somewhere in the article (if it isn't it should be since that is a valid personal fact), and is the information verified/sourced? -- 172.162.95.66 ( talk) 06:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
He holds people’s gazes as he speaks, and he has an unerring physical sense, knowing just how long to clasp a shoulder, linger on a hug, double-grip a hand. While Obama exudes great warmth, he doesn’t arouse the suspicion he has overrelied on sex appeal in his career, though he’s got it (six foot two, good-looking, smile like a white picket fence). People are just as apt to express their admiration around him as they are to flutter.----NEW YORK MAGAZINE (Sep. 25, 2006) [Michelle is five-foot eleven.] — Justmeherenow ( ) 06:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)And Sports Illustrated's S.L. Price specifies Barack as 6-foot-1+1/2 (and fifteen pounds different from Price's own, unstated weight). — Justmeherenow ( ) 17:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is super duper POV in favor of Obama in almost every aspect Heatsketch ( talk) 17:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you're looking for this page: http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.114.123.4 ( talk) 19:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Back when Senator Barack Obama was playing marbles in knee pants, his present casual friend, Dr. Bill Ayers, who's now an academic, had been involved in some rather extraordinarily reprehensible activities. Yet the context of these neighbors having met is shrouded in mystery since Obama and Ayers, perhaps smartly, decline to respond to inquiries about it. In any case, this has been met with a mostly reluctant coverage akin maybe a sniff by the mainstream media, mostly immediately after the famous exchange between Obama and Mr. George Stephanopoulis in the City of Brotherly Love in April, when Obama said Ayers "is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis" [etc.]
After which Senator John McCain piccoloed in a riff into the campaign's musical score about Obama's ongoing friendship with Ayers "...while the guy was unrepentant over his activities as a member of a terrorist organization, the Weathermen. Does he condemn them? Would he condemn someone who says they're unrepentant and wished that they had bombed more?" To which the counterpoint was played by Mr. Bill Burton, along the theme that..."Unable to sell his out-of-touch ideas on the economy and Iraq, John McCain has stooped to the same smear politics and low road that he denounced in 2000" [etc.] The question is, which theme should Wikipedia's coverage/lack thereof echo? The Obama campaign's (about "smear tactics," etc.) via no mention of Ayers? The McCain campaign's (through detailing what facts are known about the apparently casual friendship between neighbors), letting readers make of it what they will? Or the mainstream media's allegorical, collective sniff (that is, perhaps through Wikipedia's making barest mention of Ayers name with a link)? — Justmeherenow ( ) 03:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
We just finished a lengthy discussion on Bill Ayers (which occupies its own Archive page, #23), which revealed a very clear lack of consensus on including Ayers. Am I to understand that some of y'all are attempting to throw that entire discussion out the window only one week after its conclusion? Shem (talk) 04:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
IMHO black liberation theology's somewhat unfairly maligned, its efforts to engender racial pride caricatured by those appealing to an identity politics subtly appealing to the white majority. Instead of just "God damn America!" how about the context that (according to yesterday's Washington Post)... "At the very core of its mission, Trinity seeks to reveal and broadcast racial inequalities. A product of black liberation theology, it teaches members to identify with their African roots and take pride in the African American experience. Sermons sometimes mingle biblical lessons with those learned from slavery or the civil rights movement." — Justmeherenow ( ) 06:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
If was international news that Barack Obama and Dick Cheney are 8th cousins and that was what I was curious about, and then looked at the Wikipedia article and no mention of it. So I looked it up and found some accredited sources and added that info to this article since it wasn't in it, it was international news and betting I was wasn't the only person who was curious about it. Not trying to name every ancestor of Obama's, but this particular case as I read about it in a newspaper in Qatar. Cladeal832 ( talk) 21:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Obama is an eighth cousin, once removed, of Vice-President Dick Cheney and a ninth cousin of President Harry S Truman through their common ancestor Mareen Duvall, a French Huguenot who immigrated to Maryland in the 1650s. [2]
That is the info I am more interested in, but another Obama most recent European ancestor is his great-great-great grandfather, Falmouth Kearney, an Irish farmer, who immigrated from County Offaly, Ireland during the Great Irish Famine and resettled in Tipton County, Indiana. [3]
Cladeal832 ( talk) 00:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
In the article itself, his mother is refer to Ann Dunham, not Ann Obama (her name at the time of his birth) or Ann Soetoro, her name at the time of death. It's just standard pratice to use a women's maiden name in an educational and information biographical article, so what is wrong with Michelle Robinson? Using Michelle Robinson Obama is misleading as she never goes by that name and Michelle Obama née Robinson seems just too long. Cladeal832 ( talk) 00:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Any modification to a fully this page should be discussed here. Once
consensus has been established for the change, any administrator may make the necessary edits to the article page. Placing the {{
editprotected}}
template on the talk page can draw attention to discussions about edits to protected pages.
I asked for this because I just don't see any consensus building here, rather the opposite with factions each claiming consensus, and that isn't how it works.
Sorry.
This is for the best. -- BenBurch ( talk) 00:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
These are the three most disputed topics in the biography. Anyone can see from the "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations" in the Hillary Clinton biography (despite separate articles about these topics), and the two paragraphs about the Keating Five scandal in the John McCain biography (despite separate article about Keating Five) that Wikipedia biographies about presidential candidates explore controversies and scandals in substantial detail, even as the campaign is going on.
A review of the George W. Bush and John Kerry biographies during the 2004 campaign confirms that this practice is the well-established standard at Wikipedia. See this version of the Bush biography in October 2004, containing some version of the word "critic" or "criticize" 13 times and at least one direct quote from a Bush critic on global warming, and this version of the Kerry biography from October 2004, containing Bush criticisms of Kerry regarding the central campaign issue of the Iraq war despite the existence of the John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 article.
We see the same pattern for other prominent politicians such as Tony Blair, Stephen Harper, John Howard, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin, Silvio Berlusconi and Nicolas Sarkozy. Despite the fact that they were involved in political campaigns to be elected or re-elected as president or prime minister, and despite the existence of separate articles (in some cases) that covered the campaign, their biographies discussed campaign related controversies in detail. This is the established consensus at Wikipedia. It represents the consensus of thousands of WP editors. Claiming that Wright, Rezko and Ayers should be excluded for the sake of summary style or WP:BLP concerns is disingenuous, to put it charitably. Since notable critics are using Wright, Rezko and Ayers against Obama, and since information about these three men comes from many neutral and reliable sources, they belong in this biography. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 20:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought this would be useful in the discussion "Zeroing in on Rezko for now" just below. As of this point, all the material in the article on Rezko can be found in the Barack Obama#Personal life section, Paragraph 2:
Noroton ( talk) 22:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
WorkerBee (and others) it would be helpful to speak in specifics rather than generalities, and to take these one at a time rather than all at once. The Ayers issue seems the most fraught, so perhaps its better to start with Wright or Rezko (I have a thought about how we might approach the Ayers issue, but let's leave that to the side right now). I agree with Floridianed in that I don't think anyone is saying Wright or Rezko should be excluded, the debate is about language. So WorkerBee, perhaps you can pick one of those and explain what you would like to change. Currently we have a paragraph on Wright and a couple of sentences on Rezko. What adjustments are you looking to make? Let's try to avoid general speechifying and (especially) uncivil comments about other editors as we discuss this.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
WorkerBee74, I think there's wide agreement that some coveage of Rezko (and Wright) is worthwhile. It's the details where there may be disagreement. I think all the details will have to be defended on the grounds that they help us understand Obama himself. Bigtimepeace asked at his 21:23 post at the top of this subsection, What adjustments are you looking to make? Here's a similar question: What specific language would you like to add and where? Noroton ( talk) 23:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I cannot cut and paste, so edit conflicts on a long edit can be extremely frustrating. I type about 10 WPM. Please be patient, leave this little section alone for an hour, and I'll put it together for you. All right? WorkerBee74 ( talk) 23:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your patience. The first section, "Early life and career," has doubled in size during the past two days without any complaints, so I think this shows that the summary style argument has been employed selectively.
One paragraph should be expanded to read as follows. All material I suggest adding will be italicized and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Add." Material I feel should be removed will be in brackets and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Remove":
In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm, [Remove: specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development,] where he was an associate for three years, [Remove: from 1993 to 1996] then of counsel from 1996 to 2004. [Remove: with his law license becoming inactive in 2002] Add: After his election to the Illinois State Senate, he worked only during the summer. Obama worked on cases where the firm represented community organizers, and pursued discrimination claims and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits. Mostly, Obama drafted contracts and other documents for legal teams. Obama also worked on obtaining taxpayer supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp., which is co-owned by his long-time political supporter and friend, real estate developer Tony Rezko.
This makes it less about the firm, and more about Obama. I would also like to move most of the material about Rezko's criminal case to the campaign section, in a paragraph just after the Wright paragraph:
Add: Obama also faced questions about his long alliance with Tony Rezko. Hillary Clinton called Rezko a "slumlord." On the first day of fundraising for Obama's first political campaign, more than half the money donated came from companies owned by Rezko. Over the years, Rezko donated or raised more than $250,000 for Obama's campaigns. Rezko was convicted on 16 felony charges for bribery, fraud and money laundering in June 2008, many of them related to political fundraising. While Obama has not been implicated in any crimes and has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related donations to charity, critics continued to question this relationship.
Finally, the two sentences starting with "The land adjacent to their house" in the personal life section needs to be replaced with this:
Add: Vacant land adjacent to their new home was purchased on the same day in June 2005 and from the same seller by the wife of Tony Rezko, who was already under federal investigation. Obama brought Rezko along the first time he viewed the house. While the Obamas' offer for the house was $300,000 below the asking price, Rita Rezko paid full price for the vacant land. Obama said he learned about the investigation later, but still purchased a strip of the Rezko land in January 2006 to widen his yard. Regarding this series of transactions Obama later told news media, "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," admitting that it was a "boneheaded move."
Thanks for your patience. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 00:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikidemo and Bigtimepeace, Obama went on at length in this interview with The Chicago Sun-Times about his relationship with Rezko at various times. This is well worth reading, particularly the second time Obama speaks. Much farther down, Obama states that he still considers Rezko a "friend". I think in the context of Obama's associating with the wrong people -- not in the context of Obama being corrupt, which we already make clear -- there is enough information out there to demonstrate that we need to expand the Rezko mentions in the article. I have minor problems with WorkerBee74's additions, but not with the overall thrust. Please take a look at this interview and if anyone would like, I'll provide a few quotes from it. Noroton ( talk) 01:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
long alliance — I think the interview transcript I link to just above might actually give enough evidence for a "longtime alliance" by 2005, but I'd like to see what other people think. I agree that it's a strongly worded characterization and it's going to need airtight sourcing. Do editors think that the Sun-Times interview transcript fails to justify "longtime alliance"? Noroton ( talk) 01:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The bad news is that I prepared a detailed refutation of Wikidemo's arguments and was edit conflicted. Remember, I can't cut and paste, and I type about 10 WPM. The good news is that Noroton covered several of the points I was trying to make. Please leave this little subsection alone for an hour and I'll retype my answer. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 01:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
... it's only worth mentioning Obama's assignment to Rezmar projects if that was a significant part of his work for the firm. I disagree. There were many small ways in which Rezko was involved in Obama's career besides fundraising. He offered Obama a job while Obama was still in law school, for example. This is a very brief mention and is the most neutral way, without violating WP:WEIGHT, to illustrate Rezko's early contacts with Obama.
Even if it is included ... [it] should only be done in each case if it is legitimate, supported by reliable sources, and occurred before the work was done.' Of course, WD. I wouldn't have it any other way.
The "first day" and "more than half" is out of context and irrelevant. To the contrary, it shows that Rezko was really dedicated to making Obama a star from the very beginning of his political career. Donating a few thousand dollars to Obama's campaign today is a drop in the ocean. But giving the same amount of money to Obama on his first day in politics, as a complete unknown, was far more significant.
... "long alliance" should only be used if it's sourced ... I think 10+ years is a long time for a 46-year-old man. For the word "alliance," this source should be good enough: [8]
... Rezko raised $250K total (a small but real portion of Obama's overall fundraising). Again, you underestimate the importance of early money in politics, also called "seed money." For all of Obama's campaigns before his US Senate run, he received an aggregate total of less than $500K from all sources. In those days, Rezko was providing the lion's share of Obama's fundraising. His importance to Obama before the US Senate run cannot be overstated. He was at least as essential to State Senator Obama as oxygen to a scuba diver.
Thanks for your continued patience with my pathetic skills on a computer. Hire the handicapped. More later. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 02:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing everyone's input, I think we can find some middle ground for a compromise. In that section on personal life and career, the paragraph about the Davis law firm needs to be rewritten the way I did it, to make it more about Obama and less about the law firm, but remove the last sentence about the work he did for Rezmar. I will make that concession in order to reach a compromise.
The concession I'm asking in return is for you to accept the term "long alliance" as fair, accurate and well-sourced; that critics are questioning this relationship and that it was a relationship (which, again, is accurate and well-sourced); that the 16 charges should be summarized as shown ("bribery, fraud and money laundering") with the clear caveat that Obama hasn't been implicated in any crimes: that for the early fundraising, such terms as "first day" and "more than half" are not only relevant, but exactly the sort of context that WP summary style requires; and that the level of detail I've provided about the real estate deals, including the "boneheaded" remark and the second deal for the 10-foot strip of land (at a time when Obama admits he knew Rezko was under investigation), also is necessary for the context required by WP summary style.
To summarize, I propose that we get rid of the sentence about Rezmar, but keep the rest as I've presented it above. Remember, I can provide several examples of politicians' WP biographies that contained detailed explorations of the controversies their opponents were exploiting. Even in the middle of a hotly contested campaign, and even with a WP article elsewhere that focused entirely on the campaign. The two best examples of this well-established practice are George W. Bush in October 2004, with a separate article about the campaign and 13 various conjugations of the words "critic" and "criticism" in the biography, and Hillary Clinton in March 2008, with a separate article about the campaign and two separate sections on controversies with bold section headers, "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations," in the biography.
This is the Wikipedia way. It is well-established practice and we should follow these precedents. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 18:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
We're here to write a good article, not to trade horses. The text as it now exists in the article already represents some compromise and consensus among many editors, and inclusion of controversial details. I'm okay with some expansion and clarification, which one might consider a "compromise" position, and have proposed that below. To expand and reiterate some objections:
- Wikidemo ( talk) 23:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
In early life section:
In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm
specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development,where he was an associate for three yearsfrom 1993 to 1996, then of counsel from 1996 to 2004, with his law license becoming inactive in 2002. After his election to the Illinois State Senate he allowed his law license to become inactive, and he worked only during the summer. His work involved representing community organizers, and pursuing discrimination and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits, mostly drafting contracts and other documents for the firm's legal teams.
Add to campaign section:
During the campaign Obama faced questions about his relationship with developer Tony Rezko, co-owner of Rezmar, a client on whose cases Obama had worked at Davis Miner. Rezko was a fundraiser for several prominent Illinoise politicians of both major parties, who raised more than $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns over the years, including his own contributions. Obama's home purchase in Kenwood had closed the same day as Rezko's wife purchased a vacant parcel next door from the same seller, per the seller's instructions. Later, Obama purchased a strip of the Rezkos' land to widen his yard. Although Obama was never implicated Rezko was under indictment at the time, and was later convicted, on federal corruption charges, some involving campaign contributions. Obama later called his decision to engage in financial transactions with a fundraiser a "mistake" and a "boneheaded move" on his part, but claimed that he did not learn of the investigation of Rezko until after his house purchase. After the controversy arose Obama donated $150,000 of Rezko-related campaign contributions to charity.
In "personal life section"
Applying the proceeds of a book deal,[155] the family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to their current $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood.[156]
The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties[157], and the transaction later drew scrutiny from news outlets over Obama's dealings with Rezko. While Obama was never accused of wrongdoing, Rezko was under investigation for and later convicted of unrelated corruption charges, and Obama donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.[158]In December 2007, Money magazine estimated the Obama family's net worth at $1.3 million.[159] Their 2007 tax return showed a household income of $4.2 million, up from about $1 million in 2006 and $1.6 million in 2005, mostly from sales of his books.[160]
-- Wikidemo ( talk) 23:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A few things. First it looks like we are making some real progress here, and it's good that everyone is for the most part keeping a very civil tone. Just a quick note to Newross, obviously feel free to detail your specific objections, but we are trying to come to consensus and in such a situation compromise is generally inevitable, so you may want to reconsider whether you really object to everything being proposed.
Wikidemo's suggestions above look pretty good to me, excepting perhaps some wording tweaks. I agree with Noroton that we are probably largely at consensus with the "Early life" section. I believe WorkerBee74 was the only one really proposing a mention of the few hours of legal work Obama apparently did for Rezmar, and as that editor has dropped that issue I don't think there's much more to talk about there. Wikidemo's formulation of the latter two sections would have us put all of the Rezko material in the campaign section. Personally I'm fine with that. Others (or at least WB74) were interested in spreading material in a couple of different sections, but I'm wondering how important that really is. If something more needs to be added to what Wikidemo has (which is possible), can it just be added to the campaign section? Along these lines I'd like to propose a few specific points/questions to move us forward:
I'd like to hear particularly from WB74 (but also anyone else obviously) on these issues since Wikidemo reworked that editor's initial wording.
Also a general point that takes more of a long-term view. This campaign has only just begun in a sense, and we need to bear that in mind when thinking about the campaign section of the article. There may or may not be a lot about Rezko in the future, and it's almost certain that other, more important issues and controversies will crop up. For whatever reason, most of the discussion about including criticism of Obama has been about the most salacious details (Rezko, Ayers, and Wright). Right now we have six paragraphs just on the primaries, yet we do not discuss Obama's infamous "bitter" comment, or his apparent problem with white voters in many of the final nominating contests (partially contributing to his not-as-strong-as-he-would-have-liked finish). Ask voters if they know who Rezko is and most will say no. I'm sure many more would be aware of Obama's bitter comment or his perceived difficulties with white working-class voters (as an electoral issue this is arguably second only to the Wright affair, and of course they are related). Part of why I think we need to keep the Rezko stuff as succinct as possible in the campaign section is that: A) So far at least, it has not been as big of a deal as some have assumed it would be (I think it's a bigger deal in Illinois than nationally which is why Obama did a sit-down with the Sun Times); B) There is more we could be saying about the primary campaign, including some difficulties Obama faced in the home stretch which currently are not really discussed; C) The section will have to grow (and possibly be simultaneously trimmed) as the general election season moves forward. Again these are general thoughts to bear in mind, and while I want to handle the Rezko specifics first and get them out of the way I think it's worth it to consider these points as we do that.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Although the microscope on Rezko is campaign-related, it didn't hardly dent the campaign and is more relevant to Obama's political image than anything else. Thus I'd support Rezko be removed from his "personal life" section as it has far too much weight there and put it in the "cultural and political image" section. Same goes for any and all other "minor controversy" that might get thrown in. The neutrality tagging editors of that section would be happier for it too. Modocc ( talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
There's been a lot said on this page in defense of Obama that has gone over and above Obama's more modest defense of himself. I went over a long transcript of an interview Obama gave to the editorial board of the Chicago Sun-Times, dated March 15, 2008. Here is my summary. In my user space, I have all the quotes to back up what's said in this summary, and you can find the quotes in the interview transcript as well (and if you don't trust my quotes, do a "find on this page" search of the Sun-Times interview). Keep in mind, this is a summary, and there are statements in the transcript that are more or less favorable to Obama but which I thought were not important enough to include in these six paragraphs. This may seem long, but I think it may save space in the long run. I'm posting this here not so that it can be put in the article, but so that people can get a better perspective of the issue. It's not the last word, but it seems a little unreasonable to be more Catholic than the Pope.
Source: Complete transcript of the Sun-Times interview with Barack Obama ; March 15, 2008 ; BY SUN-TIMES STAFF
Obama acknowledges that his relationship with Rezko is a legitimate matter of public scrutiny: "I appreciate the fact I have to be under greater scrutiny as somebody who could be president."
Barack Obama considered Tony Rezko a friend whom Obama met or spoke with sometimes as frequently as daily, but usually much less often. They've known each other for about 17 years. Their friendship included breakfast and lunch meetings, telephone conversations and sometimes frequent face-to-face meetings. Obama occasionally invited Rezko to dinner at his home and Obama and his wife once spent a day at Rezko's home in Lake Geneva (I assume this is Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, a resort town). Rezko was an important fundraiser for Obama over a long period of time, but especially at the beginning of Obama's political career. In his first state senate campaign, Obama received 10 to 15 percent of his $100,000 campaign warchest from Rezko's fundraising efforts, and in Obama's campaign for U.S. Congress, a fundraising event was held at Rezko's home. Obama estimated that Rezko's fundraising contributed $60,000 to $70,000 to the Senate campaign, out of a total of $14.5 million raised. Rezko was one of the original eight contributors to Obama's 2004 U.S. Senate campaign, when "It was a real stretch just to raise the first $250,000."
When the Obamas were househunting, Michelle found one on the market for $1.9 million that she really wanted but couldn't afford. Obama asked Rezko to look at the house, and Rezko visited it with him. Rezko expressed an interest in the lot that the owners were also selling, and when the Obamas eventually bought the house for $1.65 million, Rezko bought the adjacent lot from the same sellers for about $600,000. Obama assumed Rezko's purchase probably came about because, as a real-estate developer in the area, including the neighborhood where the house was, Rezko probably saw a good business deal in buying and developing the lot. Months later, Obama bought about 1/6 of the Rezko-owned lot, about 10 feet wide, for about 1/6 the price Rezko had paid for the lot. Obama and Rezko also made arrangements to have Rezko pay for placing a fence along the new property line and to have Obama pay for some landscape maintenance (grass cutting, probably) on the lot.
Obama says he did not know that Rezko was facing a potential criminal prosecution when the real estate transactions took place. He does say he made a mistake, which he called "boneheaded", in engaging in a business transaction with Rezko:
A Chicago Sun-Times interviewer told Obama the real estate transactions took place "the same time reports were coming out that he was being investigated for alleged illegal influence-peddling", but in the same interview, Obama said, "It's simply not true that this was common knowledge. It may have been common knowledge among those who were familiar with development and developers in the community. It wasn't common knowledge and it wasn't reported on."
-- Noroton ( talk) 04:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
--- I've made a few corrections in this, for accuracy. Also, the $1.9 million initial asking price was for the house lot, not the adjacent vacant lot as well, according to Obama. The sellers couldn't get the higher price and settled for $1.65 million. Noroton ( talk) 05:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd just like to reiterate one critical position many of us stated prior, that this article is about Barack Obama, not Antoin Rezko. No one's arguing that Rezko shouldn't be mentioned, but material on Rezko can be covered with due weight on one section of the article; trying to shoehorn Rezko throughout the entire article is unacceptable. Shem (talk) 04:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I believe the mere fact that many people knew him as "Barry" during his youth and even his college years is worth mentioning in the entry, if only for the reason that such a high-profile person was known by a name different than the one he is known by now. Here is the newsweek article about when he decided to go by his formal name.... http://www.newsweek.com/id/128633/output/print (UTC) June 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.202.146 ( talk • contribs)
The college nickname was on a Newsweek cover "How Barry became Barack" a while back. So it's gotten some media mention. I'm sure it's true that right-wing blogs are trying to insinuate that he's hiding something, or covering up something,or whatever, which is silly. The Newsweek piece was actually pretty silly too: it was a positive spin that purported to explore the meanings of cultural identities or the like. In reality, it means about as much as John F. Kennedy using the nickname "Jack". Still, that nickname is mentioned in that article. A brief mention in "Early Life" seems quite appropriate. LotLE× talk 16:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm aware of the controversy involving the use of "professor", however I think the current lead doesn't suggest the right timeline, and regardless of whether "professor" is used should be fixed. It currently says:
Whether professor or not, he taught at UC from 1992 to 2004. This sentence at least strongly implies he stopped teaching after being elected to the Illinois Senate in 1997. I'm not sure how to fix this other than adding another sentence, perhaps:
I don't care about "professor" vs. "taught" but I think the time interval should be addressed. Flaming about this is probably not a good idea, but please comment. -- Rick Block ( talk) 03:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd ask editors from both "sides" to accept a compromise while discussion continues. It includes all the recently added context (including conviction and that Rezko was a prevalent fundraiser), but without a laundry list of charges and other politicians Rezko's contributed to. Shem (talk) 04:25, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
It's not fine at all, and it is not fine in a way that puts the article in violation of numerous guidelines and policies. The article violates policies regarding sections that are supposed to be summaries of linked articles, regarding article length, and regarding neutrality & undue weight. The default consensus is always against the addition of material. Adding material carries the burden of proof. It has to, otherwise you get a license for disruption that works like so:
That what's going on here, and it is garbage. To excuse or back down from it in the name of consensus only legitimizes a way of editing without consensus. The basic rule must be observed: adding material carries the burden of proof. No consensus is required to remove material that was added without consensus. Those who edit war over this point must be blocked, or the principle of consensus is subverted. Life.temp ( talk) 09:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I would like very much to take a 30-day voluntary break from all Obama-related articles. But I would like a commitment from the involved administrators that they are going to monitor the conduct of a small but determined group of exclusionists on these articles.
User:Life.temp gutted the article, removing a total of 732 words in two consecutive edits: [1] [2] I placed the following warning on his/her Talk page and on the article Talk page: [3] He/she removed the warning from the user Talk page with a personal attack in the edit summary [4] and discussed this warning in two edits on the article Talk page, [5] [6] proving that he/she had seen the warning and was aware of increased concerns about edit warring. Nevertheless, last night Life.temp again gutted the article, ripping out nearly 1,000 words this time: [7] None of these edits were accompanied by anything resembling consensus.
It is obvious that Life.temp's goal is to expunge any controversy from the article. This goes hand in hand with similarly intentioned efforts by User:Scjessey, User:Loonymonkey, User:Wikidemo and User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters. I request a block of at least 24 hours for Life.temp, a warning for the other four, and a seven-day topic ban for all five of them. Thank you. Kossack4Truth ( talk) 11:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I have restored, as closely as reasonably possible, the Rezko paragraph version at the time that protection was removed. The only significant differences are K4T's addition of AFP, a reliable source that no one has objected to, and the correct listing of the charges for which Rezko was convicted, as the AFP article confirms. I don't see how anyone can object to a correct listing of the charges. Other than that, it's exactly the same as the protected version.
If you want to change it, get consensus first. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 17:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed an error in the article. It states that Obama was a law professor, but in fact he was only a lecturer. This error needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tdemarre ( talk • contribs) 20:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
According to his birth certificate, which can be viewed here: http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg his legal name is in fact not Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. but Barack Hussein Obama II. Is this worth changing, or are the two interchangable enough that it doesn't have to be changed? DanyaRomulus ( talk) 15:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
As per his birth certificate, released to Daily Kos ( http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg), he's Barack Obama II, not Barack Obama, Jr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.147.254 ( talk) 15:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
We should use the most common version of full name (per WP:NAMES, not per se the form listed on a birth-certificate). A quick "Google test" shows far more hits on the "Jr." form than the "II" form (i.e. over an order of magnitude). LotLE× talk 20:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The case for calling him Barack Obama, Jr. in the lead instead of Barack Obama II just got weaker. His campaign has posted a small copy of his birth certificate on this campaign website, and it clearly shows Barack Obama II (there's a better version published by Daily Kos from an image given to them by the Obama campaign here). Combine that with his brother's statement that I quoted from higher up in this section and the case has gotten considerably stronger for calling him "II" instead of "Jr." It's an odd situation: We have lots of media reports calling him "Jr." but the most solid reports say "II". With as many media reports as we have, it seems worthwhile to include both and explain the matter. Should it be done in the lead or in his early life section? Should we continue calling him "Jr" in the first line and not mention "II"? Noroton ( talk) 21:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
[Related to above mention of contributors' back-and-forth contributions/deletions of disputed info]: Important. Would Wikipedians pleeease stop removing mention, within McCain and Obama bios' campaign sections, of each one of the primary political conflicts between the two campaigns, as summarized by most observers?
Which, with regard to Obama, includes his friendship with Dr. Ayers: "The raw material for swift-boating this year is already apparent. There is Obama's loony pastor, his friendship with a former radical, his dealings with a convicted financial sleaze. McCain's friendship with a woman lobbyist is an issue the New York Times fumbled, but it could resurface. McCain was one of the Keating Five, tied to a financial and influence scandal from the early '90s that could be brought down from the attic. And there is his alleged bad temper, a potentially legitimate issue that could be blended with his age in unsavory ways."----MICHAEL KINSLEY ( — Justmeherenow ( ) 08:22, 14 June 2008 (UTC))
All right then, stop disrupting this discussion with your ugly accusations and take them to a moderator. There's a "Suspected Sock puppets" page, and I've been posting on it. Take your accusations there, and see if a moderator will take you seriously. If they won't, then may I suggest that in the interests of civility, you should give it up, Jack? 70.9.18.59 ( talk) 20:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
These issues of connections with politically controversial figures--in the context of the Presidential campaign--belong in the article on his campaign. They don't belong in the general biography. That article already goes into great detail on much of this. Repeating it in this general article on his life is bad form, and an obvious political agenda. Please don't be a dick for your ideals. Thanks. Life.temp ( talk) 08:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Justmeherenow is right. Wikipedia should dutifully reflect what the secondary sources (major news media) believe relevant. It is not character assassination to neutrally report what these neutral sources are saying. Is it a "calculated partisan attack" to accurately and neutrally describe Rezko's criminal felony convictions, and accurately and neutrally describe Rezko's real estate deals and fundraising efforts for Obama? WorkerBee74 ( talk) 15:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
To everyone who reads this, please stand back and do not edit war over the Tony Rezko section - or any section - of this article! If you can, please take a deep breath, have a cup of tea, be patient. Even if you think that means leaving the wrong version in place, that's better than destabilizing an article read by 250K people per day. Please? Thanks, Wikidemo ( talk) 03:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
It's time to discuss a return to the protected version of this article for the presidential campaign and personal life sections. All edits made after protection was removed were unsupported by consensus. The large scale deletions by Life.temp, a sockpuppet account that has now been blocked, briefly destabilized the article, allowing other edits to slip in that had no consensus. These unsupported edits should now be reverted to create the starting point for further discussion and consensus building. State support or opposition to this, and briefly state your good reasons below. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 12:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
* Strongly Oppose Your proposal is based on the incorrect premise that the version at the moment of article protection is the consensus version and all edits afterwards are against consensus. That's not the case at all. There is no consensus for adding this material and this just sounds like an end-run around consensus. If the version at protection had not included the material you wish to add, it is hard to imagine that you would be using the same rationale. Consensus is not achieved by a roll of the dice. -- Loonymonkey ( talk) 21:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Ethnicity wise, he's mixed and biracial. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to just call him the first racially mixed person running for the presidency? Intranetusa ( talk) 23:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Color wise, as the H&K 2 movie puts it, "he's barely even brown."
"He is the first African American to be the presumptive presidential nominee of any major American political party."
Why is this so important that it needs to go in the lead of the article? Seriously, who cares? This is practically suggesting that we should be surprised that a black man is being considered for the Presidency. It's only news in the racially-backwards country in which he's being nominated. I think the rest of the civilized world view this for what it is - unimportant trivia. If anyone is curious about how many black men, brown-eyed men, men who wore pinky-rings, Californian men, men with asthmatic house pets, etc. have run for President, they can just look up the list of presidential candidates and find this info.
Certainly this information is of interest, and I can see mentioning it later in the article (with an appropriate explanation of why this should be considered important - i.e. the struggle for equality among races in the U.S.) but putting it in the lead just suggests that he is somehow less equal because of his colour or that he is a token candidate - something I am sure Mr. Obama himself would deny being. 139.48.25.61 ( talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I have been wonder this the entire time they have labled Barack as an African-American. How can they do this? Throughout his campain that is one title they use extensively. I'm sure he, just like every other inter-racial person in the United States checks the "other" box on offical documents. So how can he be called the first African-American if his mother is white?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.75.175.171 ( talk) 01:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I actually like a recent addition of Fovean Author: His Kenyan father makes Obama the first American of African descent to be the presumptive nominee of a major political party.
We've had a little brouhaha (minor as this talk page goes) over the use of African-American (vs. bi-racial, mixed heritage, whatever). I think FA's phrase does a nice job of being factual, not-too-wordy, but also avoiding a somewhat loaded term. Moreover, whether or not he's really the first candidate since (whomever) to have a non-American parent, it would be nice to mention that fact in the lead. LotLE× talk 05:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
A problem with "African-American" is that it has multiple meanings/nuances in different communities, or for different readers. Certainly there is the issue of AAs having non-African ancestry (as most do), and the kerfuffle here around whether 2 grandparent is the same as 1 parent or 4 great-grandparents, etc (and whether he should be called "biracial" or the like). But also, for many readers AA insinuates "descendant of American slaves"; there's clearly a certain cultural sense to this, since that diaspora created many cultural forms and identities. In that sense, Obama isn't in the category. Similarly, many recent Caribbean or African immigrants do not self-identify as African-American (despite having the same skin tone and roughly the same ancestry as people who do); as an anecdote, I found it interesting that a friend of mine who is a joint citizen of the USA and a Caribbean nation said that he was not African-American, but any kids he had (here in the USA) would be.
The form that mentions his Kenyan father and African ancestry manages to be more precise without sounding forced or using circumlocution. And contrary to the below discussed Jr/II thing, the "Google test" shows close enough usage. Yeah, the ancestry version is 2-3x less common, but it's not rare (i.e. > 10x predominance of AA). LotLE× talk 20:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Let me restate the problem; on the first paragraph of this entry, we have a statement that is a campaign proclamation of Senator Obama's campaign, but is not factual. Senator Obama claims he will be the first African-American Presidential nominee of a major political party in the United States. In order to test this claim we must establish two facts: 1) That Barack Obama is an African-American. 2) That no previous nominee has been African-American. Let's look at #2 first. Andrew Jackson was 50% black. His older brother was even sold as a slave, which was only legal for blacks. This alone disproves Obama's statement, and is sufficient for removing the campaign propaganda from this article. However, we should, for completeness, examine the first claim as well. We know he is 50% Caucasian. There is evidence he is over 43% Arab. In Kenya, Arab African is a racial classification distinct from African Negro. In the US, since Ex parte Mohriez in 1944, Arabs are considered Caucasian. Thus, legally, Barack Obama is 93% Caucasian. By what stretch of the imagination is a man who is 93+% White and less than 7% Black a Black man? That's a question that isn't to my knowledge answered by US law, but I'd be very surprised if it's never been answered to US courts, because there are many government programs for which that answer would determine eligibility, such as minority preferences in government contracts. In any case, however, the claim in the first paragraph has been proven false, and should be modified at the very least with a disclaimer that the claim is in dispute. - Syberghost ( talk) 01:54, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
He's not African-America -I can't believe this is not accurately addressed in wikipedia. My mother is from Mongolian and my father is of mixed European descent. I cannot rightly call myself a "mongolian america" any more than Obama called me called a "african-american". The phrase is misleading and people need to respect myself and others of 'mixed race'. There will only be more of us in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.10.241 ( talk) 04:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I see that this conversation has gotten a bit skewed, and I wanted to address the original topic of this section without being associated with the "out there" comments that had gotten inserted; that's the reason for this subsection.
I think that this term, "of African descent" is perfect. In fact, I had originally tried to insert it in the article nearly two years ago. The problem with "African-American" is that it has a connotation very different for many people—namely, someone who is descended from slaves. Indeed, early in his campaign their were a few African-Americans who verbalized that, because of his ancestry, Obama was not "one of them". Now personally, I think that a person's self-identification should be used (unless of course, the person's self-identification is a patent fabrication. Obama does have the right to call himself an African-American. But it would also be equally accurate for us to call him an American of African descent; it doesn't contradict his self-identification, and it respects the logic of those who limit African-Americans to the descendents of slaves.
I don't really care one way or the other. But I think that Fovean Author's suggestion is worth supporting, as it is as NPOV as they come, IMHO. Unschool ( talk) 02:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Why not go by Wikipedia and look up " African American"? :) -- Floridianed ( talk) 19:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
As a history teacher I can't in good conscience let Syberghost's comments go unanswered. The Andrew Jackson "theory," such as it, seems to come from a book by Joel Augustus Rogers written over 40 years ago. I'd never heard of it but it seems to basically be an unsourced and utterly speculative pamphlet written by someone pushing a POV (as we say around these parts). It's also fundamentally wrong from what I can tell. Andrew Jackson's parents were immigrants from Ireland (they were white, as was basically everyone in Ireland at that time). His father died not well before he was born as Rogers seems to contend, but rather just a few weeks prior to Andrew's birth. The claim that Jackson was African American is simply not true and is so fringe and bizarre that I'd never even heard it before (and I'm aware of a lot of fringe theories about American history).
Three of the other presidents Syberghost is mentioning as "black" are Jefferson, Lincoln, and Calvin Coolidge. From what I can tell the rationale for these (coming from Rogers) is also speculative nonsense (for example one of the points against Lincoln is that his opponents drew cartoons of him as though he were black - hardly surprising given Lincoln's opposition to slavery and supposed status as a "Negro lover" in the hateful white supremacist jargon of the day).
For a long time it has been rumored that Warren G. Harding had an African American great grandmother. The rumor was popularized by William Chancellor, a raging racist and partisan Democrat who feared that Harding would be the first black president and was part of some racial conspiracy. Rumors that the Hardings were partially of African descent were in the air in their part of Ohio before Harding ever sought the presidency, but they were never proven then and have never been proven since. It's possible that there is some truth to those rumors, but as of now they remain rumors and nothing more. Thus our best information, based on reliable sources, at this point is that Obama, if elected, would be the first African American president. -- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:29, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
If the percentage of various components of one's ancestry are not relevant, then we're all African-Americans, and I'd like to sign my business up as minority-owned for contract preferences please. After all, my ancestors did come from Africa at one point, even if by eventual way of Ireland. - Syberghost ( talk) 17:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
How tall is Obama? Is his height noted somewhere in the article (if it isn't it should be since that is a valid personal fact), and is the information verified/sourced? -- 172.162.95.66 ( talk) 06:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
He holds people’s gazes as he speaks, and he has an unerring physical sense, knowing just how long to clasp a shoulder, linger on a hug, double-grip a hand. While Obama exudes great warmth, he doesn’t arouse the suspicion he has overrelied on sex appeal in his career, though he’s got it (six foot two, good-looking, smile like a white picket fence). People are just as apt to express their admiration around him as they are to flutter.----NEW YORK MAGAZINE (Sep. 25, 2006) [Michelle is five-foot eleven.] — Justmeherenow ( ) 06:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)And Sports Illustrated's S.L. Price specifies Barack as 6-foot-1+1/2 (and fifteen pounds different from Price's own, unstated weight). — Justmeherenow ( ) 17:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This page is super duper POV in favor of Obama in almost every aspect Heatsketch ( talk) 17:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I think you're looking for this page: http://www.conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.114.123.4 ( talk) 19:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Back when Senator Barack Obama was playing marbles in knee pants, his present casual friend, Dr. Bill Ayers, who's now an academic, had been involved in some rather extraordinarily reprehensible activities. Yet the context of these neighbors having met is shrouded in mystery since Obama and Ayers, perhaps smartly, decline to respond to inquiries about it. In any case, this has been met with a mostly reluctant coverage akin maybe a sniff by the mainstream media, mostly immediately after the famous exchange between Obama and Mr. George Stephanopoulis in the City of Brotherly Love in April, when Obama said Ayers "is a guy who lives in my neighborhood, who's a professor of English in Chicago who I know and who I have not received some official endorsement from. He's not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis" [etc.]
After which Senator John McCain piccoloed in a riff into the campaign's musical score about Obama's ongoing friendship with Ayers "...while the guy was unrepentant over his activities as a member of a terrorist organization, the Weathermen. Does he condemn them? Would he condemn someone who says they're unrepentant and wished that they had bombed more?" To which the counterpoint was played by Mr. Bill Burton, along the theme that..."Unable to sell his out-of-touch ideas on the economy and Iraq, John McCain has stooped to the same smear politics and low road that he denounced in 2000" [etc.] The question is, which theme should Wikipedia's coverage/lack thereof echo? The Obama campaign's (about "smear tactics," etc.) via no mention of Ayers? The McCain campaign's (through detailing what facts are known about the apparently casual friendship between neighbors), letting readers make of it what they will? Or the mainstream media's allegorical, collective sniff (that is, perhaps through Wikipedia's making barest mention of Ayers name with a link)? — Justmeherenow ( ) 03:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
We just finished a lengthy discussion on Bill Ayers (which occupies its own Archive page, #23), which revealed a very clear lack of consensus on including Ayers. Am I to understand that some of y'all are attempting to throw that entire discussion out the window only one week after its conclusion? Shem (talk) 04:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
IMHO black liberation theology's somewhat unfairly maligned, its efforts to engender racial pride caricatured by those appealing to an identity politics subtly appealing to the white majority. Instead of just "God damn America!" how about the context that (according to yesterday's Washington Post)... "At the very core of its mission, Trinity seeks to reveal and broadcast racial inequalities. A product of black liberation theology, it teaches members to identify with their African roots and take pride in the African American experience. Sermons sometimes mingle biblical lessons with those learned from slavery or the civil rights movement." — Justmeherenow ( ) 06:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
If was international news that Barack Obama and Dick Cheney are 8th cousins and that was what I was curious about, and then looked at the Wikipedia article and no mention of it. So I looked it up and found some accredited sources and added that info to this article since it wasn't in it, it was international news and betting I was wasn't the only person who was curious about it. Not trying to name every ancestor of Obama's, but this particular case as I read about it in a newspaper in Qatar. Cladeal832 ( talk) 21:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Obama is an eighth cousin, once removed, of Vice-President Dick Cheney and a ninth cousin of President Harry S Truman through their common ancestor Mareen Duvall, a French Huguenot who immigrated to Maryland in the 1650s. [2]
That is the info I am more interested in, but another Obama most recent European ancestor is his great-great-great grandfather, Falmouth Kearney, an Irish farmer, who immigrated from County Offaly, Ireland during the Great Irish Famine and resettled in Tipton County, Indiana. [3]
Cladeal832 ( talk) 00:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
In the article itself, his mother is refer to Ann Dunham, not Ann Obama (her name at the time of his birth) or Ann Soetoro, her name at the time of death. It's just standard pratice to use a women's maiden name in an educational and information biographical article, so what is wrong with Michelle Robinson? Using Michelle Robinson Obama is misleading as she never goes by that name and Michelle Obama née Robinson seems just too long. Cladeal832 ( talk) 00:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Any modification to a fully this page should be discussed here. Once
consensus has been established for the change, any administrator may make the necessary edits to the article page. Placing the {{
editprotected}}
template on the talk page can draw attention to discussions about edits to protected pages.
I asked for this because I just don't see any consensus building here, rather the opposite with factions each claiming consensus, and that isn't how it works.
Sorry.
This is for the best. -- BenBurch ( talk) 00:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
These are the three most disputed topics in the biography. Anyone can see from the "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations" in the Hillary Clinton biography (despite separate articles about these topics), and the two paragraphs about the Keating Five scandal in the John McCain biography (despite separate article about Keating Five) that Wikipedia biographies about presidential candidates explore controversies and scandals in substantial detail, even as the campaign is going on.
A review of the George W. Bush and John Kerry biographies during the 2004 campaign confirms that this practice is the well-established standard at Wikipedia. See this version of the Bush biography in October 2004, containing some version of the word "critic" or "criticize" 13 times and at least one direct quote from a Bush critic on global warming, and this version of the Kerry biography from October 2004, containing Bush criticisms of Kerry regarding the central campaign issue of the Iraq war despite the existence of the John Kerry presidential campaign, 2004 article.
We see the same pattern for other prominent politicians such as Tony Blair, Stephen Harper, John Howard, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin, Silvio Berlusconi and Nicolas Sarkozy. Despite the fact that they were involved in political campaigns to be elected or re-elected as president or prime minister, and despite the existence of separate articles (in some cases) that covered the campaign, their biographies discussed campaign related controversies in detail. This is the established consensus at Wikipedia. It represents the consensus of thousands of WP editors. Claiming that Wright, Rezko and Ayers should be excluded for the sake of summary style or WP:BLP concerns is disingenuous, to put it charitably. Since notable critics are using Wright, Rezko and Ayers against Obama, and since information about these three men comes from many neutral and reliable sources, they belong in this biography. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 20:19, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought this would be useful in the discussion "Zeroing in on Rezko for now" just below. As of this point, all the material in the article on Rezko can be found in the Barack Obama#Personal life section, Paragraph 2:
Noroton ( talk) 22:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
WorkerBee (and others) it would be helpful to speak in specifics rather than generalities, and to take these one at a time rather than all at once. The Ayers issue seems the most fraught, so perhaps its better to start with Wright or Rezko (I have a thought about how we might approach the Ayers issue, but let's leave that to the side right now). I agree with Floridianed in that I don't think anyone is saying Wright or Rezko should be excluded, the debate is about language. So WorkerBee, perhaps you can pick one of those and explain what you would like to change. Currently we have a paragraph on Wright and a couple of sentences on Rezko. What adjustments are you looking to make? Let's try to avoid general speechifying and (especially) uncivil comments about other editors as we discuss this.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 21:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
WorkerBee74, I think there's wide agreement that some coveage of Rezko (and Wright) is worthwhile. It's the details where there may be disagreement. I think all the details will have to be defended on the grounds that they help us understand Obama himself. Bigtimepeace asked at his 21:23 post at the top of this subsection, What adjustments are you looking to make? Here's a similar question: What specific language would you like to add and where? Noroton ( talk) 23:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I cannot cut and paste, so edit conflicts on a long edit can be extremely frustrating. I type about 10 WPM. Please be patient, leave this little section alone for an hour, and I'll put it together for you. All right? WorkerBee74 ( talk) 23:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your patience. The first section, "Early life and career," has doubled in size during the past two days without any complaints, so I think this shows that the summary style argument has been employed selectively.
One paragraph should be expanded to read as follows. All material I suggest adding will be italicized and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Add." Material I feel should be removed will be in brackets and preceded by the boldfaced word, "Remove":
In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm, [Remove: specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development,] where he was an associate for three years, [Remove: from 1993 to 1996] then of counsel from 1996 to 2004. [Remove: with his law license becoming inactive in 2002] Add: After his election to the Illinois State Senate, he worked only during the summer. Obama worked on cases where the firm represented community organizers, and pursued discrimination claims and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits. Mostly, Obama drafted contracts and other documents for legal teams. Obama also worked on obtaining taxpayer supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp., which is co-owned by his long-time political supporter and friend, real estate developer Tony Rezko.
This makes it less about the firm, and more about Obama. I would also like to move most of the material about Rezko's criminal case to the campaign section, in a paragraph just after the Wright paragraph:
Add: Obama also faced questions about his long alliance with Tony Rezko. Hillary Clinton called Rezko a "slumlord." On the first day of fundraising for Obama's first political campaign, more than half the money donated came from companies owned by Rezko. Over the years, Rezko donated or raised more than $250,000 for Obama's campaigns. Rezko was convicted on 16 felony charges for bribery, fraud and money laundering in June 2008, many of them related to political fundraising. While Obama has not been implicated in any crimes and has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related donations to charity, critics continued to question this relationship.
Finally, the two sentences starting with "The land adjacent to their house" in the personal life section needs to be replaced with this:
Add: Vacant land adjacent to their new home was purchased on the same day in June 2005 and from the same seller by the wife of Tony Rezko, who was already under federal investigation. Obama brought Rezko along the first time he viewed the house. While the Obamas' offer for the house was $300,000 below the asking price, Rita Rezko paid full price for the vacant land. Obama said he learned about the investigation later, but still purchased a strip of the Rezko land in January 2006 to widen his yard. Regarding this series of transactions Obama later told news media, "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," admitting that it was a "boneheaded move."
Thanks for your patience. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 00:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikidemo and Bigtimepeace, Obama went on at length in this interview with The Chicago Sun-Times about his relationship with Rezko at various times. This is well worth reading, particularly the second time Obama speaks. Much farther down, Obama states that he still considers Rezko a "friend". I think in the context of Obama's associating with the wrong people -- not in the context of Obama being corrupt, which we already make clear -- there is enough information out there to demonstrate that we need to expand the Rezko mentions in the article. I have minor problems with WorkerBee74's additions, but not with the overall thrust. Please take a look at this interview and if anyone would like, I'll provide a few quotes from it. Noroton ( talk) 01:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
long alliance — I think the interview transcript I link to just above might actually give enough evidence for a "longtime alliance" by 2005, but I'd like to see what other people think. I agree that it's a strongly worded characterization and it's going to need airtight sourcing. Do editors think that the Sun-Times interview transcript fails to justify "longtime alliance"? Noroton ( talk) 01:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
The bad news is that I prepared a detailed refutation of Wikidemo's arguments and was edit conflicted. Remember, I can't cut and paste, and I type about 10 WPM. The good news is that Noroton covered several of the points I was trying to make. Please leave this little subsection alone for an hour and I'll retype my answer. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 01:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
... it's only worth mentioning Obama's assignment to Rezmar projects if that was a significant part of his work for the firm. I disagree. There were many small ways in which Rezko was involved in Obama's career besides fundraising. He offered Obama a job while Obama was still in law school, for example. This is a very brief mention and is the most neutral way, without violating WP:WEIGHT, to illustrate Rezko's early contacts with Obama.
Even if it is included ... [it] should only be done in each case if it is legitimate, supported by reliable sources, and occurred before the work was done.' Of course, WD. I wouldn't have it any other way.
The "first day" and "more than half" is out of context and irrelevant. To the contrary, it shows that Rezko was really dedicated to making Obama a star from the very beginning of his political career. Donating a few thousand dollars to Obama's campaign today is a drop in the ocean. But giving the same amount of money to Obama on his first day in politics, as a complete unknown, was far more significant.
... "long alliance" should only be used if it's sourced ... I think 10+ years is a long time for a 46-year-old man. For the word "alliance," this source should be good enough: [8]
... Rezko raised $250K total (a small but real portion of Obama's overall fundraising). Again, you underestimate the importance of early money in politics, also called "seed money." For all of Obama's campaigns before his US Senate run, he received an aggregate total of less than $500K from all sources. In those days, Rezko was providing the lion's share of Obama's fundraising. His importance to Obama before the US Senate run cannot be overstated. He was at least as essential to State Senator Obama as oxygen to a scuba diver.
Thanks for your continued patience with my pathetic skills on a computer. Hire the handicapped. More later. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 02:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
After reviewing everyone's input, I think we can find some middle ground for a compromise. In that section on personal life and career, the paragraph about the Davis law firm needs to be rewritten the way I did it, to make it more about Obama and less about the law firm, but remove the last sentence about the work he did for Rezmar. I will make that concession in order to reach a compromise.
The concession I'm asking in return is for you to accept the term "long alliance" as fair, accurate and well-sourced; that critics are questioning this relationship and that it was a relationship (which, again, is accurate and well-sourced); that the 16 charges should be summarized as shown ("bribery, fraud and money laundering") with the clear caveat that Obama hasn't been implicated in any crimes: that for the early fundraising, such terms as "first day" and "more than half" are not only relevant, but exactly the sort of context that WP summary style requires; and that the level of detail I've provided about the real estate deals, including the "boneheaded" remark and the second deal for the 10-foot strip of land (at a time when Obama admits he knew Rezko was under investigation), also is necessary for the context required by WP summary style.
To summarize, I propose that we get rid of the sentence about Rezmar, but keep the rest as I've presented it above. Remember, I can provide several examples of politicians' WP biographies that contained detailed explorations of the controversies their opponents were exploiting. Even in the middle of a hotly contested campaign, and even with a WP article elsewhere that focused entirely on the campaign. The two best examples of this well-established practice are George W. Bush in October 2004, with a separate article about the campaign and 13 various conjugations of the words "critic" and "criticism" in the biography, and Hillary Clinton in March 2008, with a separate article about the campaign and two separate sections on controversies with bold section headers, "Lewinsky scandal" and "Whitewater and other investigations," in the biography.
This is the Wikipedia way. It is well-established practice and we should follow these precedents. WorkerBee74 ( talk) 18:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
We're here to write a good article, not to trade horses. The text as it now exists in the article already represents some compromise and consensus among many editors, and inclusion of controversial details. I'm okay with some expansion and clarification, which one might consider a "compromise" position, and have proposed that below. To expand and reiterate some objections:
- Wikidemo ( talk) 23:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
In early life section:
In 1993 Obama joined Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm
specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development,where he was an associate for three yearsfrom 1993 to 1996, then of counsel from 1996 to 2004, with his law license becoming inactive in 2002. After his election to the Illinois State Senate he allowed his law license to become inactive, and he worked only during the summer. His work involved representing community organizers, and pursuing discrimination and voting rights claims. He also worked on real estate transactions, corporate law for small businesses, and defending clients against minor lawsuits, mostly drafting contracts and other documents for the firm's legal teams.
Add to campaign section:
During the campaign Obama faced questions about his relationship with developer Tony Rezko, co-owner of Rezmar, a client on whose cases Obama had worked at Davis Miner. Rezko was a fundraiser for several prominent Illinoise politicians of both major parties, who raised more than $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns over the years, including his own contributions. Obama's home purchase in Kenwood had closed the same day as Rezko's wife purchased a vacant parcel next door from the same seller, per the seller's instructions. Later, Obama purchased a strip of the Rezkos' land to widen his yard. Although Obama was never implicated Rezko was under indictment at the time, and was later convicted, on federal corruption charges, some involving campaign contributions. Obama later called his decision to engage in financial transactions with a fundraiser a "mistake" and a "boneheaded move" on his part, but claimed that he did not learn of the investigation of Rezko until after his house purchase. After the controversy arose Obama donated $150,000 of Rezko-related campaign contributions to charity.
In "personal life section"
Applying the proceeds of a book deal,[155] the family moved in 2005 from a Hyde Park, Chicago condominium to their current $1.6 million house in neighboring Kenwood.[156]
The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer Tony Rezko, a fundraiser for several prominent Illinois politicians from both major political parties[157], and the transaction later drew scrutiny from news outlets over Obama's dealings with Rezko. While Obama was never accused of wrongdoing, Rezko was under investigation for and later convicted of unrelated corruption charges, and Obama donated $150,000 in Rezko-linked campaign contributions to charity.[158]In December 2007, Money magazine estimated the Obama family's net worth at $1.3 million.[159] Their 2007 tax return showed a household income of $4.2 million, up from about $1 million in 2006 and $1.6 million in 2005, mostly from sales of his books.[160]
-- Wikidemo ( talk) 23:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
A few things. First it looks like we are making some real progress here, and it's good that everyone is for the most part keeping a very civil tone. Just a quick note to Newross, obviously feel free to detail your specific objections, but we are trying to come to consensus and in such a situation compromise is generally inevitable, so you may want to reconsider whether you really object to everything being proposed.
Wikidemo's suggestions above look pretty good to me, excepting perhaps some wording tweaks. I agree with Noroton that we are probably largely at consensus with the "Early life" section. I believe WorkerBee74 was the only one really proposing a mention of the few hours of legal work Obama apparently did for Rezmar, and as that editor has dropped that issue I don't think there's much more to talk about there. Wikidemo's formulation of the latter two sections would have us put all of the Rezko material in the campaign section. Personally I'm fine with that. Others (or at least WB74) were interested in spreading material in a couple of different sections, but I'm wondering how important that really is. If something more needs to be added to what Wikidemo has (which is possible), can it just be added to the campaign section? Along these lines I'd like to propose a few specific points/questions to move us forward:
I'd like to hear particularly from WB74 (but also anyone else obviously) on these issues since Wikidemo reworked that editor's initial wording.
Also a general point that takes more of a long-term view. This campaign has only just begun in a sense, and we need to bear that in mind when thinking about the campaign section of the article. There may or may not be a lot about Rezko in the future, and it's almost certain that other, more important issues and controversies will crop up. For whatever reason, most of the discussion about including criticism of Obama has been about the most salacious details (Rezko, Ayers, and Wright). Right now we have six paragraphs just on the primaries, yet we do not discuss Obama's infamous "bitter" comment, or his apparent problem with white voters in many of the final nominating contests (partially contributing to his not-as-strong-as-he-would-have-liked finish). Ask voters if they know who Rezko is and most will say no. I'm sure many more would be aware of Obama's bitter comment or his perceived difficulties with white working-class voters (as an electoral issue this is arguably second only to the Wright affair, and of course they are related). Part of why I think we need to keep the Rezko stuff as succinct as possible in the campaign section is that: A) So far at least, it has not been as big of a deal as some have assumed it would be (I think it's a bigger deal in Illinois than nationally which is why Obama did a sit-down with the Sun Times); B) There is more we could be saying about the primary campaign, including some difficulties Obama faced in the home stretch which currently are not really discussed; C) The section will have to grow (and possibly be simultaneously trimmed) as the general election season moves forward. Again these are general thoughts to bear in mind, and while I want to handle the Rezko specifics first and get them out of the way I think it's worth it to consider these points as we do that.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 08:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Although the microscope on Rezko is campaign-related, it didn't hardly dent the campaign and is more relevant to Obama's political image than anything else. Thus I'd support Rezko be removed from his "personal life" section as it has far too much weight there and put it in the "cultural and political image" section. Same goes for any and all other "minor controversy" that might get thrown in. The neutrality tagging editors of that section would be happier for it too. Modocc ( talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
There's been a lot said on this page in defense of Obama that has gone over and above Obama's more modest defense of himself. I went over a long transcript of an interview Obama gave to the editorial board of the Chicago Sun-Times, dated March 15, 2008. Here is my summary. In my user space, I have all the quotes to back up what's said in this summary, and you can find the quotes in the interview transcript as well (and if you don't trust my quotes, do a "find on this page" search of the Sun-Times interview). Keep in mind, this is a summary, and there are statements in the transcript that are more or less favorable to Obama but which I thought were not important enough to include in these six paragraphs. This may seem long, but I think it may save space in the long run. I'm posting this here not so that it can be put in the article, but so that people can get a better perspective of the issue. It's not the last word, but it seems a little unreasonable to be more Catholic than the Pope.
Source: Complete transcript of the Sun-Times interview with Barack Obama ; March 15, 2008 ; BY SUN-TIMES STAFF
Obama acknowledges that his relationship with Rezko is a legitimate matter of public scrutiny: "I appreciate the fact I have to be under greater scrutiny as somebody who could be president."
Barack Obama considered Tony Rezko a friend whom Obama met or spoke with sometimes as frequently as daily, but usually much less often. They've known each other for about 17 years. Their friendship included breakfast and lunch meetings, telephone conversations and sometimes frequent face-to-face meetings. Obama occasionally invited Rezko to dinner at his home and Obama and his wife once spent a day at Rezko's home in Lake Geneva (I assume this is Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, a resort town). Rezko was an important fundraiser for Obama over a long period of time, but especially at the beginning of Obama's political career. In his first state senate campaign, Obama received 10 to 15 percent of his $100,000 campaign warchest from Rezko's fundraising efforts, and in Obama's campaign for U.S. Congress, a fundraising event was held at Rezko's home. Obama estimated that Rezko's fundraising contributed $60,000 to $70,000 to the Senate campaign, out of a total of $14.5 million raised. Rezko was one of the original eight contributors to Obama's 2004 U.S. Senate campaign, when "It was a real stretch just to raise the first $250,000."
When the Obamas were househunting, Michelle found one on the market for $1.9 million that she really wanted but couldn't afford. Obama asked Rezko to look at the house, and Rezko visited it with him. Rezko expressed an interest in the lot that the owners were also selling, and when the Obamas eventually bought the house for $1.65 million, Rezko bought the adjacent lot from the same sellers for about $600,000. Obama assumed Rezko's purchase probably came about because, as a real-estate developer in the area, including the neighborhood where the house was, Rezko probably saw a good business deal in buying and developing the lot. Months later, Obama bought about 1/6 of the Rezko-owned lot, about 10 feet wide, for about 1/6 the price Rezko had paid for the lot. Obama and Rezko also made arrangements to have Rezko pay for placing a fence along the new property line and to have Obama pay for some landscape maintenance (grass cutting, probably) on the lot.
Obama says he did not know that Rezko was facing a potential criminal prosecution when the real estate transactions took place. He does say he made a mistake, which he called "boneheaded", in engaging in a business transaction with Rezko:
A Chicago Sun-Times interviewer told Obama the real estate transactions took place "the same time reports were coming out that he was being investigated for alleged illegal influence-peddling", but in the same interview, Obama said, "It's simply not true that this was common knowledge. It may have been common knowledge among those who were familiar with development and developers in the community. It wasn't common knowledge and it wasn't reported on."
-- Noroton ( talk) 04:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
--- I've made a few corrections in this, for accuracy. Also, the $1.9 million initial asking price was for the house lot, not the adjacent vacant lot as well, according to Obama. The sellers couldn't get the higher price and settled for $1.65 million. Noroton ( talk) 05:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I'd just like to reiterate one critical position many of us stated prior, that this article is about Barack Obama, not Antoin Rezko. No one's arguing that Rezko shouldn't be mentioned, but material on Rezko can be covered with due weight on one section of the article; trying to shoehorn Rezko throughout the entire article is unacceptable. Shem (talk) 04:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
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