This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
Better? -- HailFire ( talk) 13:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Discuss, please. -- HailFire ( talk) 16:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Malia Ann Obama's birth year in the infobox was recently changed from 1998 to 1999. I realized that our sources for 1998 weren't as solid as they might be. (They're a community blog from Obama's campaign website, which has her celebrating her 9th birthday on July 4, 2007 and a Chicago Sun-Times article which gives her age as 8 on January 20, 2007.) On the other hand, the 1999 birth year is widely found on the web, including on this page from Gannett News Service, which explicitly says that she was born in 1999. How do we resolve this contradiction? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
-- Slp1 ( talk) 01:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The following excerpts from this section seem to have WP:WEIGHT issues. From the first paragraph:
Decisions by Republican incumbent Peter Fitzgerald and his Democratic predecessor Carol Moseley Braun not to contest the race launched wide-open Democratic and Republican primary contests involving fifteen candidates. [1] In early opinion polls leading up to the Democratic primary, Obama trailed multimillionaire businessman Blair Hull and Illinois Comptroller Daniel Hynes. [2] However, Hull's popularity declined following reports of his ex-wife's allegations of domestic abuse. [3]
And from the second paragraph:
Obama's opponent in the general election was expected to be Republican primary winner Jack Ryan. However, Ryan withdrew from the race in June 2004, following disclosure of divorce records containing politically embarrassing charges by his ex-wife, actress Jeri Ryan. [4] In August 2004, with less than three months to go before election day, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan. [5]
The first paragraph goes into detail about politicians who didn't even take part in the contest, and then details about another politician's alleged domestic abuse - details unrelated to Obama's life. The second paragraph needs to mention that Alan Keyes was a late entry to the race, but I don't understand why it needs to go into specifics about Jack Ryan's divorce - again, details unrelated to Obama's life. -- Scjessey ( talk) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a proposed correction to the "Early life and career" section of the article. The name of the law firm where Obama worked for a decade is incorrect. It is Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, and it is a small, 12-attorney firm that represents slumlords. Also, the article says that Obama only worked there for three years. The fact is that Obama worked there for ten years. The current single sentence reads like this:
As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [6]
Leaving out the name "Davis" confounds most search attempts and divorces Obama from the firm's founder and godfather, Allison Davis, a notorious slumlords' attorney in Chicago. I propose replacing that sentence with these two sentences and a link:
As an associate attorney with Miner Barnhill & Galland (fka Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, founded by attorney Allison Davis) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [7] While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. [8] owned by Daniel Mahru and the now-indicted Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko, who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns. [9]
Please add your comments below. Kossack4Truth ( talk) 13:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This source [1] gives the firm's name as "Davis Miner Barnhill" (Davis, no commas, no Galland). As you say, Davis was important and I don't see any need to note subsequent name changes inline. Maybe a footnote. Andyvphil ( talk) 04:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. What happened to the "slumlords" bit?
Andyvphil (
talk) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(excuse me for refactoring this after and edit conflict --
Scjessey (
talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC))
As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [10] While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. [11] owned by Daniel Mahru and Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko. [12]
I'd support the version Scjessey proposes, with the change of "Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko" to "controversial Illinois businessman and political fundraiser Tony Rezko". "Democratic Party fundraiser" is inaccurate, since Rezko also raised money for Republicans (incl. George W. Bush). The phrase "controversial Illinois businessman" is in the article now under "Personal life". If we move it up to "Early life and career" we might not need to identify Rezko further in the "Personal life" section. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 01:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Obama's remarks? [13]
These remarks are very telling when put in the context of the twenty-year Rev. Wright relationship. 72.196.233.224 ( talk) 10:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh come on guys, do we need to have a snark fight for every thing? This section brings up a reasonable question, answer it or not, but stop being jerks. Arkon ( talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is closed. Clinton had a 20-point lead before Wright, which deteriorated to a 6-point lead. Now with these "elitist" comments, nothing has happened! Grsz 11 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have sure not seen any polls lately with a 20-point spread. The SurveyUSA thing is the only one I've seen over 10. The latest Public Policy Polling survey of North Carolina does have Obama 20 points ahead there, though. Paisan30 ( talk) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a weird standard being applied here. The effect of the comments (if there is one) can be noted in the article, but the comments themselves are obviously quite notable and have been covered in a large amount RS's. Arkon ( talk) 22:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If this quote belongs, doesn't it belong in the presidential campaign article for Obama and not the general biography article? Remember ( talk) 22:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Disappointing. I said I saw a poll on TV. I didn't recall it's name, but clearly none of you bothered to make any effort to google the poll and find out if it actually exists. So in about 5 seconds, I found it at " http://www.americanresearchgroup.com". Now I don't know how credible it is, but it exists. thezirk ( talk) 11:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Especially now considering Hillary won the important Pennsylvania primary by 10 points, an unexpectedly large victory, regaining momentum, and because this controversy and the Wright issues obviously outweighed Obama massively outspending Hillary, and because the issue was even covered in the debate, I'd say the remarks and the surrounding controversy deserve to be mentioned in this article. thezirk ( talk) 06:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate, to measure the character of this man, that we include the fact that many people believe he gave Hillary the finger during a speech the other day. Here is a clip from YouTube we can use a source. It's important people know the truth behind this man. Grsz 11 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Obviously it wasn't meant that way. Why is anyone bringing it up and trying to analyze or defend it? Is it so important to you to make sure that everybody knows Obama was really just scratching his face? Waste of talk page space. thezirk ( talk) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Obama's remarks? [14]
These remarks are very telling when put in the context of the twenty-year Rev. Wright relationship. 72.196.233.224 ( talk) 10:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh come on guys, do we need to have a snark fight for every thing? This section brings up a reasonable question, answer it or not, but stop being jerks. Arkon ( talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is closed. Clinton had a 20-point lead before Wright, which deteriorated to a 6-point lead. Now with these "elitist" comments, nothing has happened! Grsz 11 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have sure not seen any polls lately with a 20-point spread. The SurveyUSA thing is the only one I've seen over 10. The latest Public Policy Polling survey of North Carolina does have Obama 20 points ahead there, though. Paisan30 ( talk) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a weird standard being applied here. The effect of the comments (if there is one) can be noted in the article, but the comments themselves are obviously quite notable and have been covered in a large amount RS's. Arkon ( talk) 22:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If this quote belongs, doesn't it belong in the presidential campaign article for Obama and not the general biography article? Remember ( talk) 22:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Disappointing. I said I saw a poll on TV. I didn't recall it's name, but clearly none of you bothered to make any effort to google the poll and find out if it actually exists. So in about 5 seconds, I found it at " http://www.americanresearchgroup.com". Now I don't know how credible it is, but it exists. thezirk ( talk) 11:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Especially now considering Hillary won the important Pennsylvania primary by 10 points, an unexpectedly large victory, regaining momentum, and because this controversy and the Wright issues obviously outweighed Obama massively outspending Hillary, and because the issue was even covered in the debate, I'd say the remarks and the surrounding controversy deserve to be mentioned in this article. thezirk ( talk) 06:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate, to measure the character of this man, that we include the fact that many people believe he gave Hillary the finger during a speech the other day. Here is a clip from YouTube we can use a source. It's important people know the truth behind this man. Grsz 11 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Obviously it wasn't meant that way. Why is anyone bringing it up and trying to analyze or defend it? Is it so important to you to make sure that everybody knows Obama was really just scratching his face? Waste of talk page space. thezirk ( talk) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Obama ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004 and won. This article provides the election results.
Obama ran for the U.S. House in 2000 and lost. The election results are repeatedly deleted from this article. [6] [7]
Does anything else need to be said? Ferrylodge ( talk) 02:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How about:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the
Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's
South Side, including
Hyde Park-
Kenwood and
South Shore.<ref name=Jackson20070403>Jackson, David (
April 4
2007).
"Showing His Bare Knuckles". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)</ref> Following the surprise return of incumbent
Alice Palmer to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities.<ref name=Jackson20070403 /> In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate
Bobby Rush, receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%.<ref>Scott, Janny (
September 9
2007).
"A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns.<ref>McClelland, Edward (
February 12
2007).
"How Obama Learned to Be a Natural". Salon. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
-- HailFire ( talk) 17:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I've blocked Scjessey and Andy for 12 hours for edit warring about the sentence "But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." As far as I can tell in all the reversions back and forth there was no attempt to discuss this or reach a compromise. That's not the way we do things here. If the pattern of edit warring and tendentious editing continues, I won't hesitate to block anyone (on either side of the dispute) for longer periods. It's quite simple: if you're reverted, especially if you're reverted more than once, discuss the edit on the talk page. That goes for everybody. OK? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm less interested in the letter of the 3RR than its spirit. As Scjessey pointed out on my talk page, WP:3RR says, "Editors may still be blocked even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." The back-and-forth over this material was clearly an edit war, and not the first on this page between these individuals. Scjessey did attempt some discussion on the matter of the tax returns, but I didn't see any prior discussion from anyone about the tenant and babysitter disputes now being discussed below. Previous attempts to get the parties to engage in discussion on other subjects had not been successful, so I decided to use administrative measures. If anyone disagrees with this decision, please feel free to start a discussion at WP:AN/I or, if you think the matter serious enough, open an admin user conduct RfC. I'm a member of Wikipedia administrators open to recall, and my understanding of what that means is here. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In the Presidential Campaign section, the word "terrorism" is shown in quotes that are intended to be a direct quote of Wright on the matter, but that look like scare quotes because only a single word is between them.
I would contend that this should be avoided when possible. My original solution was to simply remove 'with its own "terrorism" ', although I noted in the edit summary that this wasn't the best solution. I actually wanted to say, 'because of its foreign policy', which isn't a direct quote and which might also be going too far from the cited source. In any case, I think we need to avoid having one or two words quoted out of context like that, and I'd like to see any solutions that other editors here have. -- Dachannien Talk Contrib 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Andy's current text:
In 1995 Alice Palmer, Illinois State Senator for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by Mel Reynolds, who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore, that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by Jesse Jackson, Jr. in a special election held November 2005 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality. [15] [16]
Surely this is a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT, given that it is mostly about Alice J. Palmer and her time in the Illinois State Senate. What was wrong with the previous version? And what has the Mel Reynolds sex abuse case got to do with Obama? -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The current text is
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Following the surprise return of incumbent Alice Palmer to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities. [16] In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush, receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%. [17] Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns. [18]
I am attempting, as a first step, to replace this with:
In 1995 Alice Palmer, Illinois State Senator for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by Mel Reynolds, who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore, that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by Jesse Jackson, Jr. in a special election held November 1995 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality. [19] [16]
In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by Richard M. Daley and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got only 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters. [20] [21]
First, Palmer's return was not a "surprise". She was the incumbent and had evinced no desire to retire from politics if she didn't win, so it could have been a surprise only if her loss had been a surprise. But she was facing both the Jesse Jackson and Emil Jones political machines and could be expected to and did finish third, and once the election was decided and filing for renomination was no longer a premature admission of loss she could be expected to and did so file. The idea that the seat was "vacant" and that her deciding to run for her own seat was a "suprise" is pro-Obama Kool-Aid designed to minimize the degree to which he is perceived to have stabbed her in the back.
Second, the idea that devoting more than two sentences apiece to Obama's first two runs for office is, in the biography of a politician, undue weight is absurd. The real problem is that the two paragraphs I've expanded to are as yet inadequate. No mention, e.g., of his wife's desire after the defeat that he retire and take up a foundation job instead.
Third, the idea that no details are important enough to mention -- he ran, he won, it was a long time ago, who cares -- is a view so idiotic that I would have thought only Scjessey was capable of expressing without embarassment. We should mention Rush's son getting shot for the same reason we mention Ryan's sex scandal: Obama's life was affected by these events. Andyvphil ( talk) 14:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It might be appropriate to mention briefly that Palmer had planned to run for Congress but was defeated in the special election primary, and only then decided to petition for her old State Senate seat. However, the detail of the Mel Reynolds sex scandal is well outside the purview of this article — it would be like going into the details of the Lewinsky scandal in the main George W. Bush article. Similarly, I don't think we need to mention Rush's son here any more than the death of John Edwards' son is mentioned in Lauch Faircloth. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
* There is no such thing as a consensus version: Your own major edit, by definition, differs significantly from the existing version, meaning the existing version is no longer a consensus version. If you successfully complete this cycle, then you will have a new consensus version. If you fail, you will have a different kind of consensus version.
* Do not accept "Policy" , "consensus", or "procedure" as valid reasons for a revert: These sometimes get worn in on consensus-based wikis. You are disagreeing, that is okay....
The current version of the section, after being butchered by Andy, is as follows:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's heavily-Democratic 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Before the Democratic primary Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent Alice Palmer and three other candidates and succeeded in having all of his opponents stricken from the ballot. [16]
In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by Richard M. Daley and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters. [22] [21]
Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998 and 2002. [23] In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. [24] The new majority leader, Emil Jones, named him as the sponsor of important legislation that had been developed by others as a way of boosting Obama's intended run for the U.S. Senate. [25] [26] Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to that body. [27]
As a state legislator, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. [28] He sponsored a law enhancing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. [29] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped. [29] During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms. [30] He was criticized by rival pro-choice candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican pro-life opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on late-term abortion and parental notification issues. [31]
So in a section entitled "State Legislature" we only mention Obama's activity in the State Legislature in the very last of four paragraphs. This is clearly a ridiculous situation that needs to be immediately redressed. May I suggest a revert back to this slightly earlier version of the article, followed by some meaningful discussion of how to proceed? -- Scjessey ( talk) 16:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Taking into account the comments from Bobblehead and Josiah Rowe, here's my effort at a radical rewrite:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent Alice Palmer and the three other candidates, successfully removing their names from the ballot and allowing him to run unopposed in the primary, virtually handing him victory in the heavily-Democratic district. [16] Once elected, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. [32] He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. [29] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped. [29]
Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998, and again in 2002 after losing a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000 to four-term incumbent Bobby Rush. [33] [34] In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. [35] During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms. [36] He was criticized by rival pro-choice candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican pro-life opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on late-term abortion and parental notification issues. [37] Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the US Senate. [38]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Cite error: The named reference "Jackson20070403" was defined multiple times with different content (see the
help page).
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) and
"Obama learned from failed Congress run".
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"13th District: Barack Obama". Illinois State Senate Democrats.
October 9
2004. Archived from
the original (archive) on 2004-08-02. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Helman, Scott (
September 23
2007).
"In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics". Associated Press. CBS News.
January 17
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career" (video). CLTV. Chicago Tribune.
February 9,
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Pearson, Rick (
May 3
2007).
"Careful Steps, Looking Ahead". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) See also:
"US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune.
November 12
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views". Associated Press. MSNBC.
August 9
2004. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Youngman, Sam (
February 15
2007).
"Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation". The Hill. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Helman, Scott (
September 23
2007).
"In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics". Associated Press. CBS News.
January 17
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career" (video). CLTV. Chicago Tribune.
February 9,
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"13th District: Barack Obama". Illinois State Senate Democrats.
October 9
2004. Archived from
the original (archive) on 2004-08-02. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) See also:
"US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune.
November 12
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views". Associated Press. MSNBC.
August 9
2004. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Youngman, Sam (
February 15
2007).
"Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation". The Hill. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
I'm pretty sure this fixes the chronology problem, and it also cuts out the details of the failed Congressional run (which is detailed in the sub-article). Thoughts? -- Scjessey ( talk) 18:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Is "...allowing him to run unopposed" misleading? He was unopposed in the Democratic primary, but there was token opposition from the Republicans (and, I believe, the Harold Washington Party) in the general election. It may well be the case that in that particular district winning the Democratic primary is tantamount to winning the seat, but tantamount isn't identical. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
How about starting over with:
Obama was elected to his first (two-year) term in the Illinois Senate in 1996 from the 13th District, which then spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park- Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn. In 1998, he was reelected to a second (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate. In 2000, Obama finished second, ahead of fellow state Sen. Donne Trotter, in a three-way 1st Congressional District Democratic primary election, losing to four-term incumbent U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush. Obama was reelected in 2002 to his third (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate from a 13th District redrawn to span Chicago lakefront neighborhoods from the Gold Coast south to South Chicago. In January 2003, Obama, after having been minority spokesman for four years, became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority in the Illinois Senate. He resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the U.S. Senate.
Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reforms, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.
and in expanding the section, following WP:BLP policy by:
Newross ( talk) 04:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In another section of this talk page, Andy draws attention to the FOP endorsement in the State legislature section. I agree that this endorsement seems misplaced, since it seems to be related to the Senate campaign. If anything, I think it violates WP:WEIGHT and is probably best "relegated" to the sub article. -- Scjessey ( talk) 16:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems that we may, finally have reached a compromise over the wording in the paragraph concerning Jeremiah Wright. Let me summarize the three positions:
Have we now reached a satisfactory compromise that means we can put this issue to bed (unless it flares up again with new revelations, etc.) and move on to other things? -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Frederick Douglass, in an appendix to his “Narrative,” earnestly assures readers that he is not an atheist, then redoubles his attack on the theology of slaveholding America: “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference—so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked.” (Or, rendered into cable-news crawl: “CONTROVERSIAL MEMOIRIST ATTACKS RELIGION. DOUGLASS: AMERICAN VALUES ‘WICKED.’ ”)
I don't feel that the part about him being in the US Marines and Navy should be in there. Why is it there? It has nothing to do with anything, it's just there. I felt the compromise was good, just that one thing should be changed since it doesn't serve a purpose. QuirkyAndSuch ( talk) 10:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." is what andyvphil wanted to add to the early life and career section. In its current form, it just makes him look like a civil right activist. Clearly it wasn't all positive, though. I think this edit deserves consideration, so as to balance out that section. thezirk ( talk) 05:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Thezirk added this sentence again. I repeat my opinion that these cases aren't important enough for this summary style article, although they're appropriate for Early life and career of Barack Obama. Also, since the lede no longer says "civil rights lawyer", there's no assertion to "balance" with negative-seeming court cases. If there were "negative" cases as important as the Motor Voter or making sure that the ward boundaries were in keeping with the Civil Rights Act, I'd support their inclusion — but these two cases (a babysitter suing for wages and a tenant/landlord dispute) just aren't significant enough. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
A glance at Britannica's treatment of this period of Obama's life may be illuminating. They've got one sentence, "He also worked as an attorney on civil rights issues." Clearly their editors think that Obama's work on civil rights cases is noteworthy, but his other lawyering isn't. Can anyone find a reliable source which includes this sort of detail in a summary of Obama's life? Because I can't. Again, I'd think it more appropriate to remove the details of the civil rights cases than to add details of less important but "negative"-seeming cases. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 01:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Andy is correct when he says, "But we need to report accurately that period of Obama's life in this article." I think that's what the following text does:
Obama worked on cases where the firm represented community organizers, pursued discrimination claims, and on voting rights cases. He also spent time on real estate transactions, filing incorporation papers and defending clients against minor lawsuits. Mostly he drew up briefs, contracts, and other legal documents as a junior associate on legal teams.
Now, I still feel that there's no contradiction between describing someone as a "civil rights lawyer" and noting that he or she also worked on non-civil rights cases — but since the characterization "civil rights lawyer" is disputed, I think it's fine for us to simply and briefly describe the kind of work he did. And I agree that it's better to remove all the specific case details than to include utterly trivial matters like the babysitting case. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
A major source (ADA) has been "blacklisted", and the voting information is no longer available. Since it constitutes a large chunk of the paragraph, and acts as a complement to the National Journal numbers, I think we are going to have to do a bit of heavy-lifting to fix it. Any ideas? -- Scjessey ( talk) 19:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
With this edit, I advanced the split between between the section's two leading paragraphs and removed the ADA text that merely reasserted the National Journal's "liberal" characterization. -- HailFire ( talk) 10:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The following text was added
offered here and immediately proposed for discussion
here:
The Senate historian lists Obama as the fifth
African American Senator in U.S. history, and the third to have been popularly elected.<ref>
"Breaking New Ground: African American Senators". U.S. Senate Historical Office. Retrieved 2008-04-27.</ref> He is the only Senate member of the
Congressional Black Caucus.<ref>
"Member Info". Congressional Black Caucus. Retrieved 2008-04-27. See also: Zeleny, Jeff (
June 26
2005).
"When It Comes to Race, Obama Makes His Point—With Subtlety". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
CQ Weekly, a nonpartisan publication, characterized him as a "loyal Democrat" based on Senate votes cast in 2005 through 2007.<ref>Nather, David (
January 14
2008).
"The Space Between Clinton and Obama". CQ Weekly. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Curry, Tom (
February 21
2008).
"What Obama's Senate Votes Reveal". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> The
National Journal, in its 27th annual vote ratings, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007, although he participated in only two-thirds of the rated votes.<ref>
"Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal.
January 31
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving.<ref>
"Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico.
February 12
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America.
March 19
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
Unfortunately, it was modified by Andyvphil to this version before any discussion could take place. I have reposted the text here to help determine if there is support from the community for this version as the Barack Obama#Senate Career section's 2nd paragraph. Let's hear comments from other active editors, please. Thanks. -- HailFire ( talk) 13:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
new book out see Obama, Yes We can, Hope out March 08 [18] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.178.52 ( talk) 04:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Recommended to anyone contributing to discussions about how details concerning Jeremiah Wright, Trinity United Church of Christ, or Black theology may merit (or not merit) inclusion in this article about Barack Obama:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)-- HailFire ( talk) 16:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Should the fact he and his presidential candidate rivals were on Monday Night Raw as part of their campaign? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.41.225 ( talk) 10:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually McCain, Obama and Clinton all appeared on the show through video messages specifically addressing the fans- just look the video up if you want proof- it was on various news shows and all over the media in general.
I am watching this article. Some things have been settled but then a few days or weeks later, the bias version sneaks up. I can see about 10 examples. I will do one at a time.
I don't need to argue for the point. It's already mentioned in the talk page or talk page archive.
Sneaking things in #1: As a state senator, Obama's OPPONENT received the police union endorsement. The rank and file hated Obama because he did things they thought was anti-police. Only after the opponent lost did they change the endorsement. Just saying that he got the endorsement is POV since it glosses over the fact.
After this is resolved, we can move to point #2 of about 10. Watchingobama ( talk) 18:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I am a card carrying union member which is why the way the wikipedia article reads irks me. Just google it and near the top is...The union endorsement was not particularly surprising, since the FOP endorsed another Democrat, Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408130201aug13,1,7640082.story .
Even other internet encyclopedias (according to google) make the Hynes distinction. Sneaking things against concensus, you ask? Just look at the history. This article was correct then the bias version showed up a little while after the discussion had ended. This is one of many facts that are mentioned elsewhere on the internet as an example of wikipedia bias. This is wikipedia. Wikipedia should be for truth. Having a union support Hynes is not anti-Obama but is the truth. Watchingobama ( talk) 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why the FOP endorsement is in the State Legislature section rather than Senate Campaign is pretty inexplicable. But "consensus" says that the FOP's president "credit[ing] Obama" (after Hynes was defeated) "for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms" is as significant to Obama's biography as the loss to Rush that RS tell us nearly caused him to quit politics to take up a foundation job. "Consensus" is so clever. If it didn't tell us things like this, who would guess? Andyvphil ( talk) 09:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that the details of the FOP endorsement (initially endorsing Hynes in the primary, then endorsing Obama in the general) belong in United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004. I think the bit of information that's relevant to a summary of Obama's Illinois senate career is that he worked on death penalty reforms, in a way that gained the respect of police organizations (as indicated by the [ International Herald Tribune article). I would support removing mention of the endorsement, and instead saying something like "Police representatives credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms." That would properly include the praise offered by Laimutis Nargelenas (Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police) and Ted Street (FOP), but avoid the matter of who was endorsed at what time. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Should we include in this article that Obama seems to be distancing himself from Wright following Wright's appearance at the national press club? Obviously it's a bit too soon to do it as Obama just had the press conference ( Recentism and all that), but I figured I'd get the discussion going before we end up with a full scale edit war again. -- Bobblehead (rants) 19:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
In fairness to Wright, he also defended Obama at the NAACP dinner in Detroit "He also defended Obama and lashed out at the news media for running excerpts of his heated sermons, media pundits and those who have tried to connect him to Islam because of his full name — Barack Hussein Obama." [28] -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by It is me i think ( talk • contribs) sorry I forgot to sign It is me i think ( talk) 01:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Malia was born on July 4, 1998:
Congrats to State Sen. Barack Obama and wife, Michelle, on the birth of their first child, Malia.
Then Malia was born, a Fourth of July baby, so calm and so beautiful, with big, hypnotic eyes that seemed to read the world the moment they opened.
Michelle introduced Barack, with their daughter Malia sitting next to her. It's Malia's birthday today!
"Malia Obama is now a young lady of nine. Isn't she gorgeous?"
Natasha (Sasha) was born in 2001:
Congrats to Sen. Barack Obama and wife Michelle on the birth of daughter Natasha Marion.
Newross ( talk) 02:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
it should be noted that his favorite film is Head of State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.77 ( talk • contribs) 21:00, April 30, 2008
Hiding discussion started by a sock of a banned user. -- Bobblehead (rants) 00:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
One section is so hard to read that I added titles. There should be no opposition unless one purposely wants to make it less readable or wants to hide details such as his religion or his house. I can't believe nobody has thought of this! Watchingobama ( talk) 15:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
hiding RezkoRemoval of the subsections has the effect of hiding Rezko. That makes an encyclopedia bad because it hides information. Rezko helps Obama because Obama returned all of the money and regretted the land deal; it's not like Rev. Wright controversy where Obama kept supporting the man for 20 years and only now doesn't support him. With Rezko, Obama acted swiftly to correct the mistake. Why hide this and not hide Rev. Wright? This is unfair treatment of Obama. Watchingobama ( talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
|
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
Better? -- HailFire ( talk) 13:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Discuss, please. -- HailFire ( talk) 16:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Malia Ann Obama's birth year in the infobox was recently changed from 1998 to 1999. I realized that our sources for 1998 weren't as solid as they might be. (They're a community blog from Obama's campaign website, which has her celebrating her 9th birthday on July 4, 2007 and a Chicago Sun-Times article which gives her age as 8 on January 20, 2007.) On the other hand, the 1999 birth year is widely found on the web, including on this page from Gannett News Service, which explicitly says that she was born in 1999. How do we resolve this contradiction? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
-- Slp1 ( talk) 01:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The following excerpts from this section seem to have WP:WEIGHT issues. From the first paragraph:
Decisions by Republican incumbent Peter Fitzgerald and his Democratic predecessor Carol Moseley Braun not to contest the race launched wide-open Democratic and Republican primary contests involving fifteen candidates. [1] In early opinion polls leading up to the Democratic primary, Obama trailed multimillionaire businessman Blair Hull and Illinois Comptroller Daniel Hynes. [2] However, Hull's popularity declined following reports of his ex-wife's allegations of domestic abuse. [3]
And from the second paragraph:
Obama's opponent in the general election was expected to be Republican primary winner Jack Ryan. However, Ryan withdrew from the race in June 2004, following disclosure of divorce records containing politically embarrassing charges by his ex-wife, actress Jeri Ryan. [4] In August 2004, with less than three months to go before election day, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan. [5]
The first paragraph goes into detail about politicians who didn't even take part in the contest, and then details about another politician's alleged domestic abuse - details unrelated to Obama's life. The second paragraph needs to mention that Alan Keyes was a late entry to the race, but I don't understand why it needs to go into specifics about Jack Ryan's divorce - again, details unrelated to Obama's life. -- Scjessey ( talk) 18:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a proposed correction to the "Early life and career" section of the article. The name of the law firm where Obama worked for a decade is incorrect. It is Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, and it is a small, 12-attorney firm that represents slumlords. Also, the article says that Obama only worked there for three years. The fact is that Obama worked there for ten years. The current single sentence reads like this:
As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill & Galland from 1993 to 1996, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [6]
Leaving out the name "Davis" confounds most search attempts and divorces Obama from the firm's founder and godfather, Allison Davis, a notorious slumlords' attorney in Chicago. I propose replacing that sentence with these two sentences and a link:
As an associate attorney with Miner Barnhill & Galland (fka Davis Miner Barnhill & Galland, founded by attorney Allison Davis) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [7] While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. [8] owned by Daniel Mahru and the now-indicted Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko, who has raised a total of over $250,000 for Obama's various political campaigns. [9]
Please add your comments below. Kossack4Truth ( talk) 13:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This source [1] gives the firm's name as "Davis Miner Barnhill" (Davis, no commas, no Galland). As you say, Davis was important and I don't see any need to note subsequent name changes inline. Maybe a footnote. Andyvphil ( talk) 04:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. What happened to the "slumlords" bit?
Andyvphil (
talk) 14:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
(excuse me for refactoring this after and edit conflict --
Scjessey (
talk) 14:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC))
As an associate attorney with Miner, Barnhill and Galland (fka Davis, Miner, Barnhill and Galland) from 1993 to 2003, he represented community organizers, discrimination claims, and voting rights cases. [10] While at the firm, Obama also worked on taxpayer-supported building rehabilitation loans for Rezmar Corp. [11] owned by Daniel Mahru and Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko. [12]
I'd support the version Scjessey proposes, with the change of "Democratic Party fundraiser Tony Rezko" to "controversial Illinois businessman and political fundraiser Tony Rezko". "Democratic Party fundraiser" is inaccurate, since Rezko also raised money for Republicans (incl. George W. Bush). The phrase "controversial Illinois businessman" is in the article now under "Personal life". If we move it up to "Early life and career" we might not need to identify Rezko further in the "Personal life" section. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 01:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Obama's remarks? [13]
These remarks are very telling when put in the context of the twenty-year Rev. Wright relationship. 72.196.233.224 ( talk) 10:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh come on guys, do we need to have a snark fight for every thing? This section brings up a reasonable question, answer it or not, but stop being jerks. Arkon ( talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is closed. Clinton had a 20-point lead before Wright, which deteriorated to a 6-point lead. Now with these "elitist" comments, nothing has happened! Grsz 11 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have sure not seen any polls lately with a 20-point spread. The SurveyUSA thing is the only one I've seen over 10. The latest Public Policy Polling survey of North Carolina does have Obama 20 points ahead there, though. Paisan30 ( talk) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a weird standard being applied here. The effect of the comments (if there is one) can be noted in the article, but the comments themselves are obviously quite notable and have been covered in a large amount RS's. Arkon ( talk) 22:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If this quote belongs, doesn't it belong in the presidential campaign article for Obama and not the general biography article? Remember ( talk) 22:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Disappointing. I said I saw a poll on TV. I didn't recall it's name, but clearly none of you bothered to make any effort to google the poll and find out if it actually exists. So in about 5 seconds, I found it at " http://www.americanresearchgroup.com". Now I don't know how credible it is, but it exists. thezirk ( talk) 11:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Especially now considering Hillary won the important Pennsylvania primary by 10 points, an unexpectedly large victory, regaining momentum, and because this controversy and the Wright issues obviously outweighed Obama massively outspending Hillary, and because the issue was even covered in the debate, I'd say the remarks and the surrounding controversy deserve to be mentioned in this article. thezirk ( talk) 06:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate, to measure the character of this man, that we include the fact that many people believe he gave Hillary the finger during a speech the other day. Here is a clip from YouTube we can use a source. It's important people know the truth behind this man. Grsz 11 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Obviously it wasn't meant that way. Why is anyone bringing it up and trying to analyze or defend it? Is it so important to you to make sure that everybody knows Obama was really just scratching his face? Waste of talk page space. thezirk ( talk) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Why no mention of Obama's remarks? [14]
These remarks are very telling when put in the context of the twenty-year Rev. Wright relationship. 72.196.233.224 ( talk) 10:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh come on guys, do we need to have a snark fight for every thing? This section brings up a reasonable question, answer it or not, but stop being jerks. Arkon ( talk) 17:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm concerned, this issue is closed. Clinton had a 20-point lead before Wright, which deteriorated to a 6-point lead. Now with these "elitist" comments, nothing has happened! Grsz 11 18:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I have sure not seen any polls lately with a 20-point spread. The SurveyUSA thing is the only one I've seen over 10. The latest Public Policy Polling survey of North Carolina does have Obama 20 points ahead there, though. Paisan30 ( talk) 18:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a weird standard being applied here. The effect of the comments (if there is one) can be noted in the article, but the comments themselves are obviously quite notable and have been covered in a large amount RS's. Arkon ( talk) 22:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If this quote belongs, doesn't it belong in the presidential campaign article for Obama and not the general biography article? Remember ( talk) 22:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Disappointing. I said I saw a poll on TV. I didn't recall it's name, but clearly none of you bothered to make any effort to google the poll and find out if it actually exists. So in about 5 seconds, I found it at " http://www.americanresearchgroup.com". Now I don't know how credible it is, but it exists. thezirk ( talk) 11:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Especially now considering Hillary won the important Pennsylvania primary by 10 points, an unexpectedly large victory, regaining momentum, and because this controversy and the Wright issues obviously outweighed Obama massively outspending Hillary, and because the issue was even covered in the debate, I'd say the remarks and the surrounding controversy deserve to be mentioned in this article. thezirk ( talk) 06:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's appropriate, to measure the character of this man, that we include the fact that many people believe he gave Hillary the finger during a speech the other day. Here is a clip from YouTube we can use a source. It's important people know the truth behind this man. Grsz 11 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Obviously it wasn't meant that way. Why is anyone bringing it up and trying to analyze or defend it? Is it so important to you to make sure that everybody knows Obama was really just scratching his face? Waste of talk page space. thezirk ( talk) 06:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Obama ran for the U.S. Senate in 2004 and won. This article provides the election results.
Obama ran for the U.S. House in 2000 and lost. The election results are repeatedly deleted from this article. [6] [7]
Does anything else need to be said? Ferrylodge ( talk) 02:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How about:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the
Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's
South Side, including
Hyde Park-
Kenwood and
South Shore.<ref name=Jackson20070403>Jackson, David (
April 4
2007).
"Showing His Bare Knuckles". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)</ref> Following the surprise return of incumbent
Alice Palmer to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities.<ref name=Jackson20070403 /> In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate
Bobby Rush, receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%.<ref>Scott, Janny (
September 9
2007).
"A Streetwise Veteran Schooled Young Obama". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns.<ref>McClelland, Edward (
February 12
2007).
"How Obama Learned to Be a Natural". Salon. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
-- HailFire ( talk) 17:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I've blocked Scjessey and Andy for 12 hours for edit warring about the sentence "But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." As far as I can tell in all the reversions back and forth there was no attempt to discuss this or reach a compromise. That's not the way we do things here. If the pattern of edit warring and tendentious editing continues, I won't hesitate to block anyone (on either side of the dispute) for longer periods. It's quite simple: if you're reverted, especially if you're reverted more than once, discuss the edit on the talk page. That goes for everybody. OK? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 00:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm less interested in the letter of the 3RR than its spirit. As Scjessey pointed out on my talk page, WP:3RR says, "Editors may still be blocked even if they have made three or fewer reverts in a 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." The back-and-forth over this material was clearly an edit war, and not the first on this page between these individuals. Scjessey did attempt some discussion on the matter of the tax returns, but I didn't see any prior discussion from anyone about the tenant and babysitter disputes now being discussed below. Previous attempts to get the parties to engage in discussion on other subjects had not been successful, so I decided to use administrative measures. If anyone disagrees with this decision, please feel free to start a discussion at WP:AN/I or, if you think the matter serious enough, open an admin user conduct RfC. I'm a member of Wikipedia administrators open to recall, and my understanding of what that means is here. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
In the Presidential Campaign section, the word "terrorism" is shown in quotes that are intended to be a direct quote of Wright on the matter, but that look like scare quotes because only a single word is between them.
I would contend that this should be avoided when possible. My original solution was to simply remove 'with its own "terrorism" ', although I noted in the edit summary that this wasn't the best solution. I actually wanted to say, 'because of its foreign policy', which isn't a direct quote and which might also be going too far from the cited source. In any case, I think we need to avoid having one or two words quoted out of context like that, and I'd like to see any solutions that other editors here have. -- Dachannien Talk Contrib 13:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Andy's current text:
In 1995 Alice Palmer, Illinois State Senator for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by Mel Reynolds, who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore, that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by Jesse Jackson, Jr. in a special election held November 2005 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality. [15] [16]
Surely this is a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT, given that it is mostly about Alice J. Palmer and her time in the Illinois State Senate. What was wrong with the previous version? And what has the Mel Reynolds sex abuse case got to do with Obama? -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The current text is
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Following the surprise return of incumbent Alice Palmer to the contest in late 1995, Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominations of Palmer and three other Democratic candidates, each of whose names were removed from the primary ballot due to petition irregularities. [16] In 2000, he made an unsuccessful Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush, receiving 30% of the vote to Rush's 61%. [17] Rush and another rival candidate had charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns. [18]
I am attempting, as a first step, to replace this with:
In 1995 Alice Palmer, Illinois State Senator for Chicago's 13th District, ran for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. House of Representatives seat then held by Mel Reynolds, who had been indicted for sexual abuse of an underage campaign worker. With a degree of formality that is disputed, she anointed Obama as her chosen successor to represent the areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore, that constituted the 13th District. After she was defeated by Jesse Jackson, Jr. in a special election held November 1995 she filed to retain the Democratic nomination for her Senate seat. Obama challenged her petitions, and that of the other three candidates, and disqualified enough signatures so that he was unopposed in the March 1996 primary election. In the heavily Democratic 13th District the general election was a formality. [19] [16]
In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by Richard M. Daley and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got only 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters. [20] [21]
First, Palmer's return was not a "surprise". She was the incumbent and had evinced no desire to retire from politics if she didn't win, so it could have been a surprise only if her loss had been a surprise. But she was facing both the Jesse Jackson and Emil Jones political machines and could be expected to and did finish third, and once the election was decided and filing for renomination was no longer a premature admission of loss she could be expected to and did so file. The idea that the seat was "vacant" and that her deciding to run for her own seat was a "suprise" is pro-Obama Kool-Aid designed to minimize the degree to which he is perceived to have stabbed her in the back.
Second, the idea that devoting more than two sentences apiece to Obama's first two runs for office is, in the biography of a politician, undue weight is absurd. The real problem is that the two paragraphs I've expanded to are as yet inadequate. No mention, e.g., of his wife's desire after the defeat that he retire and take up a foundation job instead.
Third, the idea that no details are important enough to mention -- he ran, he won, it was a long time ago, who cares -- is a view so idiotic that I would have thought only Scjessey was capable of expressing without embarassment. We should mention Rush's son getting shot for the same reason we mention Ryan's sex scandal: Obama's life was affected by these events. Andyvphil ( talk) 14:19, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It might be appropriate to mention briefly that Palmer had planned to run for Congress but was defeated in the special election primary, and only then decided to petition for her old State Senate seat. However, the detail of the Mel Reynolds sex scandal is well outside the purview of this article — it would be like going into the details of the Lewinsky scandal in the main George W. Bush article. Similarly, I don't think we need to mention Rush's son here any more than the death of John Edwards' son is mentioned in Lauch Faircloth. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
* There is no such thing as a consensus version: Your own major edit, by definition, differs significantly from the existing version, meaning the existing version is no longer a consensus version. If you successfully complete this cycle, then you will have a new consensus version. If you fail, you will have a different kind of consensus version.
* Do not accept "Policy" , "consensus", or "procedure" as valid reasons for a revert: These sometimes get worn in on consensus-based wikis. You are disagreeing, that is okay....
The current version of the section, after being butchered by Andy, is as follows:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's heavily-Democratic 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Before the Democratic primary Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent Alice Palmer and three other candidates and succeeded in having all of his opponents stricken from the ballot. [16]
In 2000, Obama made a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives seat held by four-term incumbent candidate Bobby Rush. Rush had been badly defeated in the February 1999 Chicago Mayoral election by Richard M. Daley and was thought to be vulnerable. Rush charged that Obama was not sufficiently rooted in Chicago's black neighborhoods to represent constituents' concerns, and also benefitted from an outpouring of sympathy when his son was shot to death shortly before the election. Obama, who started with just a 10% name recognition, got 31% of the votes, losing by a more than 2-to-1 margin despite winning among white voters. [22] [21]
Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998 and 2002. [23] In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. [24] The new majority leader, Emil Jones, named him as the sponsor of important legislation that had been developed by others as a way of boosting Obama's intended run for the U.S. Senate. [25] [26] Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to that body. [27]
As a state legislator, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. [28] He sponsored a law enhancing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. [29] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped. [29] During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms. [30] He was criticized by rival pro-choice candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican pro-life opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on late-term abortion and parental notification issues. [31]
So in a section entitled "State Legislature" we only mention Obama's activity in the State Legislature in the very last of four paragraphs. This is clearly a ridiculous situation that needs to be immediately redressed. May I suggest a revert back to this slightly earlier version of the article, followed by some meaningful discussion of how to proceed? -- Scjessey ( talk) 16:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Taking into account the comments from Bobblehead and Josiah Rowe, here's my effort at a radical rewrite:
In July 1995, Obama announced plans to run for the Illinois Senate from Chicago's 13th District, representing areas of Chicago's South Side, including Hyde Park- Kenwood and South Shore. [16] Obama's campaign raised legal challenges to the nominating petitions of incumbent Alice Palmer and the three other candidates, successfully removing their names from the ballot and allowing him to run unopposed in the primary, virtually handing him victory in the heavily-Democratic district. [16] Once elected, Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. [32] He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reform, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. [29] Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped. [29]
Obama was reelected to the Illinois Senate in 1998, and again in 2002 after losing a Democratic primary run for the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000 to four-term incumbent Bobby Rush. [33] [34] In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. [35] During his 2004 general election campaign for U.S. Senate, he won the endorsement of the Illinois Fraternal Order of Police, whose president credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms. [36] He was criticized by rival pro-choice candidates in the Democratic primary and by his Republican pro-life opponent in the general election for a series of "present" or "no" votes on late-term abortion and parental notification issues. [37] Obama resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the US Senate. [38]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Cite error: The named reference "Jackson20070403" was defined multiple times with different content (see the
help page).
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Wolffe, Richard (
July 16
2007).
"Across the Divide". Newsweek. MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) Helman, Scott (
October 12
2007).
"Early Defeat Launched a Rapid Political Climb". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) and
"Obama learned from failed Congress run".
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"13th District: Barack Obama". Illinois State Senate Democrats.
October 9
2004. Archived from
the original (archive) on 2004-08-02. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Helman, Scott (
September 23
2007).
"In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics". Associated Press. CBS News.
January 17
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career" (video). CLTV. Chicago Tribune.
February 9,
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Pearson, Rick (
May 3
2007).
"Careful Steps, Looking Ahead". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) See also:
"US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune.
November 12
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views". Associated Press. MSNBC.
August 9
2004. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Youngman, Sam (
February 15
2007).
"Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation". The Hill. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Helman, Scott (
September 23
2007).
"In Illinois, Obama Dealt with Lobbyists". Boston Globe. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Obama Record May Be Gold Mine for Critics". Associated Press. CBS News.
January 17
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"In-Depth Look at Obama's Political Career" (video). CLTV. Chicago Tribune.
February 9,
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"13th District: Barack Obama". Illinois State Senate Democrats.
October 9
2004. Archived from
the original (archive) on 2004-08-02. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) See also:
"US Presidential Candidate Obama Cites Work on State Death Penalty Reforms". Associated Press. International Herald Tribune.
November 12
2007. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
"Keyes Assails Obama's Abortion Views". Associated Press. MSNBC.
August 9
2004. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Youngman, Sam (
February 15
2007).
"Abortion Foes Target Obama Because of His Vote Record on Illinois Legislation". The Hill. Retrieved 2008-04-20. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
I'm pretty sure this fixes the chronology problem, and it also cuts out the details of the failed Congressional run (which is detailed in the sub-article). Thoughts? -- Scjessey ( talk) 18:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Is "...allowing him to run unopposed" misleading? He was unopposed in the Democratic primary, but there was token opposition from the Republicans (and, I believe, the Harold Washington Party) in the general election. It may well be the case that in that particular district winning the Democratic primary is tantamount to winning the seat, but tantamount isn't identical. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
How about starting over with:
Obama was elected to his first (two-year) term in the Illinois Senate in 1996 from the 13th District, which then spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park- Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn. In 1998, he was reelected to a second (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate. In 2000, Obama finished second, ahead of fellow state Sen. Donne Trotter, in a three-way 1st Congressional District Democratic primary election, losing to four-term incumbent U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush. Obama was reelected in 2002 to his third (four-year) term in the Illinois Senate from a 13th District redrawn to span Chicago lakefront neighborhoods from the Gold Coast south to South Chicago. In January 2003, Obama, after having been minority spokesman for four years, became chairman of the Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority in the Illinois Senate. He resigned from the Illinois Senate in November 2004 following his election to the U.S. Senate.
Obama gained bipartisan support for legislation reforming ethics and health care laws. He sponsored a law increasing tax credits for low-income workers, negotiated welfare reforms, and promoted increased subsidies for childcare. Obama also led the passage of legislation mandating videotaping of homicide interrogations, and a law to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they stopped.
and in expanding the section, following WP:BLP policy by:
Newross ( talk) 04:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In another section of this talk page, Andy draws attention to the FOP endorsement in the State legislature section. I agree that this endorsement seems misplaced, since it seems to be related to the Senate campaign. If anything, I think it violates WP:WEIGHT and is probably best "relegated" to the sub article. -- Scjessey ( talk) 16:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems that we may, finally have reached a compromise over the wording in the paragraph concerning Jeremiah Wright. Let me summarize the three positions:
Have we now reached a satisfactory compromise that means we can put this issue to bed (unless it flares up again with new revelations, etc.) and move on to other things? -- Scjessey ( talk) 15:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Frederick Douglass, in an appendix to his “Narrative,” earnestly assures readers that he is not an atheist, then redoubles his attack on the theology of slaveholding America: “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference—so wide, that to receive the one as good, pure, and holy, is of necessity to reject the other as bad, corrupt, and wicked.” (Or, rendered into cable-news crawl: “CONTROVERSIAL MEMOIRIST ATTACKS RELIGION. DOUGLASS: AMERICAN VALUES ‘WICKED.’ ”)
I don't feel that the part about him being in the US Marines and Navy should be in there. Why is it there? It has nothing to do with anything, it's just there. I felt the compromise was good, just that one thing should be changed since it doesn't serve a purpose. QuirkyAndSuch ( talk) 10:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
"But it was not all civil rights work—he also appeared in court to defend a developer against charges it was failing to provide heat to tenants and another time to contest a demand that a healthcare corporation pay for baby-sitting (his client paid up)." is what andyvphil wanted to add to the early life and career section. In its current form, it just makes him look like a civil right activist. Clearly it wasn't all positive, though. I think this edit deserves consideration, so as to balance out that section. thezirk ( talk) 05:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Thezirk added this sentence again. I repeat my opinion that these cases aren't important enough for this summary style article, although they're appropriate for Early life and career of Barack Obama. Also, since the lede no longer says "civil rights lawyer", there's no assertion to "balance" with negative-seeming court cases. If there were "negative" cases as important as the Motor Voter or making sure that the ward boundaries were in keeping with the Civil Rights Act, I'd support their inclusion — but these two cases (a babysitter suing for wages and a tenant/landlord dispute) just aren't significant enough. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 07:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
A glance at Britannica's treatment of this period of Obama's life may be illuminating. They've got one sentence, "He also worked as an attorney on civil rights issues." Clearly their editors think that Obama's work on civil rights cases is noteworthy, but his other lawyering isn't. Can anyone find a reliable source which includes this sort of detail in a summary of Obama's life? Because I can't. Again, I'd think it more appropriate to remove the details of the civil rights cases than to add details of less important but "negative"-seeming cases. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 01:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Andy is correct when he says, "But we need to report accurately that period of Obama's life in this article." I think that's what the following text does:
Obama worked on cases where the firm represented community organizers, pursued discrimination claims, and on voting rights cases. He also spent time on real estate transactions, filing incorporation papers and defending clients against minor lawsuits. Mostly he drew up briefs, contracts, and other legal documents as a junior associate on legal teams.
Now, I still feel that there's no contradiction between describing someone as a "civil rights lawyer" and noting that he or she also worked on non-civil rights cases — but since the characterization "civil rights lawyer" is disputed, I think it's fine for us to simply and briefly describe the kind of work he did. And I agree that it's better to remove all the specific case details than to include utterly trivial matters like the babysitting case. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 05:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
A major source (ADA) has been "blacklisted", and the voting information is no longer available. Since it constitutes a large chunk of the paragraph, and acts as a complement to the National Journal numbers, I think we are going to have to do a bit of heavy-lifting to fix it. Any ideas? -- Scjessey ( talk) 19:23, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
With this edit, I advanced the split between between the section's two leading paragraphs and removed the ADA text that merely reasserted the National Journal's "liberal" characterization. -- HailFire ( talk) 10:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The following text was added
offered here and immediately proposed for discussion
here:
The Senate historian lists Obama as the fifth
African American Senator in U.S. history, and the third to have been popularly elected.<ref>
"Breaking New Ground: African American Senators". U.S. Senate Historical Office. Retrieved 2008-04-27.</ref> He is the only Senate member of the
Congressional Black Caucus.<ref>
"Member Info". Congressional Black Caucus. Retrieved 2008-04-27. See also: Zeleny, Jeff (
June 26
2005).
"When It Comes to Race, Obama Makes His Point—With Subtlety". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
CQ Weekly, a nonpartisan publication, characterized him as a "loyal Democrat" based on Senate votes cast in 2005 through 2007.<ref>Nather, David (
January 14
2008).
"The Space Between Clinton and Obama". CQ Weekly. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also: Curry, Tom (
February 21
2008).
"What Obama's Senate Votes Reveal". MSNBC. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> The
National Journal, in its 27th annual vote ratings, identified Obama as "the most liberal senator" in 2007, although he participated in only two-thirds of the rated votes.<ref>
"Obama: Most Liberal Senator In 2007". National Journal.
January 31
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref> Asked about the Journal's characterization of his voting record, Obama expressed doubts about the survey's methodology and blamed "old politics" categorization of political positions as "conservative" or "liberal" for creating predispositions that prevent problem-solving.<ref>
"Obama Interview" (transcript). WJLA-TV. Politico.
February 12
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) See also:
"Politico's Harris and VandeHei Misrepresented Harris' Own Interview with Obama". Media Matters for America.
March 19
2008. Retrieved 2008-04-27. {{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)</ref>
Unfortunately, it was modified by Andyvphil to this version before any discussion could take place. I have reposted the text here to help determine if there is support from the community for this version as the Barack Obama#Senate Career section's 2nd paragraph. Let's hear comments from other active editors, please. Thanks. -- HailFire ( talk) 13:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
new book out see Obama, Yes We can, Hope out March 08 [18] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.162.178.52 ( talk) 04:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Recommended to anyone contributing to discussions about how details concerning Jeremiah Wright, Trinity United Church of Christ, or Black theology may merit (or not merit) inclusion in this article about Barack Obama:
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)-- HailFire ( talk) 16:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Should the fact he and his presidential candidate rivals were on Monday Night Raw as part of their campaign? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.41.225 ( talk) 10:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually McCain, Obama and Clinton all appeared on the show through video messages specifically addressing the fans- just look the video up if you want proof- it was on various news shows and all over the media in general.
I am watching this article. Some things have been settled but then a few days or weeks later, the bias version sneaks up. I can see about 10 examples. I will do one at a time.
I don't need to argue for the point. It's already mentioned in the talk page or talk page archive.
Sneaking things in #1: As a state senator, Obama's OPPONENT received the police union endorsement. The rank and file hated Obama because he did things they thought was anti-police. Only after the opponent lost did they change the endorsement. Just saying that he got the endorsement is POV since it glosses over the fact.
After this is resolved, we can move to point #2 of about 10. Watchingobama ( talk) 18:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I am a card carrying union member which is why the way the wikipedia article reads irks me. Just google it and near the top is...The union endorsement was not particularly surprising, since the FOP endorsed another Democrat, Illinois Comptroller Dan Hynes... http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408130201aug13,1,7640082.story .
Even other internet encyclopedias (according to google) make the Hynes distinction. Sneaking things against concensus, you ask? Just look at the history. This article was correct then the bias version showed up a little while after the discussion had ended. This is one of many facts that are mentioned elsewhere on the internet as an example of wikipedia bias. This is wikipedia. Wikipedia should be for truth. Having a union support Hynes is not anti-Obama but is the truth. Watchingobama ( talk) 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Why the FOP endorsement is in the State Legislature section rather than Senate Campaign is pretty inexplicable. But "consensus" says that the FOP's president "credit[ing] Obama" (after Hynes was defeated) "for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms" is as significant to Obama's biography as the loss to Rush that RS tell us nearly caused him to quit politics to take up a foundation job. "Consensus" is so clever. If it didn't tell us things like this, who would guess? Andyvphil ( talk) 09:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that the details of the FOP endorsement (initially endorsing Hynes in the primary, then endorsing Obama in the general) belong in United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004. I think the bit of information that's relevant to a summary of Obama's Illinois senate career is that he worked on death penalty reforms, in a way that gained the respect of police organizations (as indicated by the [ International Herald Tribune article). I would support removing mention of the endorsement, and instead saying something like "Police representatives credited Obama for his active engagement with police organizations in enacting death penalty reforms." That would properly include the praise offered by Laimutis Nargelenas (Illinois Association of Chiefs of Police) and Ted Street (FOP), but avoid the matter of who was endorsed at what time. — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 21:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Should we include in this article that Obama seems to be distancing himself from Wright following Wright's appearance at the national press club? Obviously it's a bit too soon to do it as Obama just had the press conference ( Recentism and all that), but I figured I'd get the discussion going before we end up with a full scale edit war again. -- Bobblehead (rants) 19:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
In fairness to Wright, he also defended Obama at the NAACP dinner in Detroit "He also defended Obama and lashed out at the news media for running excerpts of his heated sermons, media pundits and those who have tried to connect him to Islam because of his full name — Barack Hussein Obama." [28] -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by It is me i think ( talk • contribs) sorry I forgot to sign It is me i think ( talk) 01:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Malia was born on July 4, 1998:
Congrats to State Sen. Barack Obama and wife, Michelle, on the birth of their first child, Malia.
Then Malia was born, a Fourth of July baby, so calm and so beautiful, with big, hypnotic eyes that seemed to read the world the moment they opened.
Michelle introduced Barack, with their daughter Malia sitting next to her. It's Malia's birthday today!
"Malia Obama is now a young lady of nine. Isn't she gorgeous?"
Natasha (Sasha) was born in 2001:
Congrats to Sen. Barack Obama and wife Michelle on the birth of daughter Natasha Marion.
Newross ( talk) 02:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
it should be noted that his favorite film is Head of State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.36.77 ( talk • contribs) 21:00, April 30, 2008
Hiding discussion started by a sock of a banned user. -- Bobblehead (rants) 00:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
One section is so hard to read that I added titles. There should be no opposition unless one purposely wants to make it less readable or wants to hide details such as his religion or his house. I can't believe nobody has thought of this! Watchingobama ( talk) 15:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
hiding RezkoRemoval of the subsections has the effect of hiding Rezko. That makes an encyclopedia bad because it hides information. Rezko helps Obama because Obama returned all of the money and regretted the land deal; it's not like Rev. Wright controversy where Obama kept supporting the man for 20 years and only now doesn't support him. With Rezko, Obama acted swiftly to correct the mistake. Why hide this and not hide Rev. Wright? This is unfair treatment of Obama. Watchingobama ( talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
|
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)