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Andyvphil, please summarize them here for us. Kindly keep your descriptions of each POV-flaw-by-omission short and to the point, and number them (by beginning each new line with #) for easy reference. It will be a kind of mini-FAR with less fanfare, and we can deal with each of the problems one-by-one. Thanks. -- HailFire ( talk) 00:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Odd that the article fails to mention some stats consider Mr Obama's voting record to be the most liberal in the Senate. Anyone object to me adding it? ( http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/) Francium12 ( talk) 17:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems some would like to distance Obama from his solid liberal credentials, but it's not an "objective quality" if you put it in terms such as The National Journal rating Obama the most liberal senator in 2007. http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/ Congressional ratings from the National Journal, from the American Conservative Union - not only are these ratings informative, allowing people to make comparisons of the voting records of different candidates, but there is also precendence for giving creedence to these ratings all throught Wiki. Shikamoo ( talk) 16:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
And yet you see no problem with subjective sentences in the article such as, "Time magazine's Joe Klein wrote that the book 'may be the best-written memoir ever produced by an American politician.'" or, "...Time magazine named him one of 'the world's most influential people.'" as long as he is praised, eh? Blarvink ( talk) 12:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I did a search for the words "liberal" and "conservative" in Obama's page and in McCain's page, and the results were very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.165.98 ( talk) 18:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
The "most liberal" rating is a smear tactic. It's used in the pejorative, typically on whoever is going to be the Democratic nominee. Same thing happened with John Kerry in '04. You expect me to believe Obama is more progressive than Russ Feingold or to the left of Bernie Sanders? Please. Adding something like this to the article only politicizes it into a tool for one side's agenda. Fifty7 ( talk) 20:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
But he's an orthodox liberal as evidenced by his voting record. The only thing I dislike more than partisanship on Wikipedia is the intentional concealment of facts. Koalorka ( talk) 00:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree wholly with the assertions regarding content, and the appearance of selective editing in this article, made by davidp, Francium12, Shikamoo, Blarvink, Cogswobble, Fishal, and Kaolorka. The tone of the discussion appears to this newbie to be weighted heavily with bias in favor of a double standard regarding inclusion of material which might give a reader cause to pause when considering the personal integrity and personal character of Barack Obama.
These points are especially relevant in an article about the personal life, and therefore the personal integrity and personal character, of any person who seeks the highest office in the land.
Asserting that links to anything critical of Obama are solely political, and should be inserted only in the Obama campaign page, and that such action is sufficient to fill the need/desire for information on the part of a reader of this article on the personal life and personal character/integrity of Obama would seem to be in accord with the assertion of the appearance of selective editing in this discussion.
Unless all Obama pages are rolled into that covering his Presidential Campaign, it does seem useful to convey in this article information about just who the man 'is' and what he is 'about'. Facts and references about investigations of the nature of his dealings and relations with Tony Rezko in the purchase of his home, as well as his decades-long membership in the Afro-centric and somewhat radical-left Trinity UCC, are obviously relevant to any reader seeking to know more about the personal integrity and character, as well as the overall personal religious beliefs, of any person seeking the Presidency. Therefore, such facts, along with such as those made by the above referenced contributors, should be included in any article about the 'personal life' of any major public figure. -- Whraglyn ( talk) 04:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Added the reference with citation. -- Davidp ( talk) 14:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I have a solution for our problem: Why not simply state that Obama has an "[adjective] liberal voting record" and simply link the article as a source. This delivers the information without using loaded terms such as "most liberal" which are largely subjective and relatively meaningless. I don't think anyone wants to "hide" Obama's voting record, but if it's going to be a central point of discussion it should be NPOV. There is no need to cite the article; we can still deliver the relevant information in other ways. 70.108.21.116 ( talk) 02:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In looking at the edit history of this page, I see a number of editors that could be submitted for blocks due to edit warring, but rather than go that route (blocks=bad), I figured I'd request temporary full protection for the article instead. [1] Seriously, how about y'all try to use the dispute resolution process rather than this unending edit war. -- Bobblehead (rants) 17:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
do you not understand what "check my history" means, or do you just like to pose? classic andyvphil: getting lectured in 3 different talk threads at the same time. hilarious 72.0.180.2 ( talk) 03:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I won't excuse myself from fault or point fingers. However, I do think that sometimes the problem with trying to build consensus is getting everyone to take part in good faith. Where does the questioned edit belong during the time that consensus is being discussed? If someone puts it into the article, those that feel it doesn't belong revert summarizing, "no consensus for this inclusion (see talk)". If it's taken out, those who feel it does belong revert summarizing, "no consensus for this removal (see talk)". → Wordbuilder ( talk) 02:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
How about we return the Barack Obama#Personal life section to this version dating from 14 January, agreeing to seek prior consensus here on any proposed additions to that section, at least until things have settled? Any support, fellow editors? -- HailFire ( talk) 18:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC) {{ editprotected}}
Andyvphil, please specify the POV flaws that you find in this paragraph that would prevent you from endorsing it as an agreed resume point for seeking consensus. -- HailFire ( talk) 21:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] Facts can be hard to pin down sometimes. The web site GovTrack.us categorizes Senator Obama as a "Rank and File Democrat" using a statistical analysis that offers a compelling case for being NPOV. [11] As for the notion that there was ever any plan for Trinity UCC to host Obama's presidential campaign announcement, you may want to double check that. -- HailFire ( talk) 15:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I am preparing to nominate this article for a third
featured article review on the grounds that it now fails
featured article criteria 1(e) which states in part: the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day, except for edits made in response to the featured article process. If Andyvphil or any other editor who may hold additional concerns about the article wishes to make the nomination before I do, that is OK by me. --
HailFire (
talk) 13:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC) -- Strikeouts added, per guidance from SandyGeorgia. --
HailFire (
talk) 23:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)] -- OUT. --
HailFire (
talk)
00:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the edit protection prevent edit wars? I think the article the way it is now is fine, and perhaps the protection should be extended. Of course it will need to be updated at some point. JonErber ( talk) 14:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to wait until the protection is removed and then see what happens with the article before nominating it for a featured article review? I know it's wishful thinking, but there's a slim chance that we can learn to get along. If we can't, then proceed. But, not before. → Wordbuilder ( talk) 19:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's please try to correct a misunderstanding. Wikipedia:Featured article review is NOT where articles go to be de-featured, it's where they go to be improved. We've been through it twice now and always this article has come out of the process better than before. I hesitate before taking that step because the skilled editors who invest their time in addressing FAR issues are already an overworked bunch, and it doesn't seem right to distract them from work on articles that need urgent attention just because minor segments of this article are gyrating back and forth and failing WP:FACR 1(e).
But it is Andyvphil who has claimed more substantive faults with this article by stating plainly: I don't want it to have undeserved FA status unless its POV flaws are corrected. Because of this, he really is the editor best placed to lead us into a more meaningful FAR. And in case anyone may have missed this nuance, articles undergoing FAR must be made available for editing. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Just one thing you should all be aware of: anyone who thinks FAR may be a quick fix will be sadly disappointed. Articles are at FAR for at least a month, more like two. I strongly recommend that you all try to work this out without a FAR. Most of the people who regularly review articles there are experienced enough to understand that it is expected that this article will see some tough times this year and will be slow to defeature it simply because of election year differences. If the article has to be protected because of the circumstances, that's not a good reason for defeaturing, and more importantly, won't solve your underlying differences. I suggest you try other options in dispute resolution first, like request for comment, etc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Says Washingon instead of Washington
Still waiting for an answer.
"THE FACTS: Obama acknowledges that over nearly eight years in the Illinois Senate, he voted "present" 129 times. That was out of roughly 4,000 votes he cast, so those "presents" amounted to about one of every 31 votes in his legislative career." - http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
He voted present on a wide range of issues including many which garnered bipartisan support. Why isn't this information included? How is this information not relevant? This article and the wiki administrators are incredibly biased.
Lid, thanks for the reply but I don't understand why that information did not make it into this article under the State Leg. section. Also, it's not just a campaign issue or something that was brought up by Obama's opponent in the context of a South Carolina debate. This (the fact that he voted present 129 times) is a demonstrable fact and as it notes above, a present vote accounted for 1 out of every 31 votes he cast over his 8 year tenure. This was a consistent pattern that emerges from his voting record as a State Legislator. Of course, the fact that Obama gives reasons justifying these votes is no reason not to include this information and there is no reason why his own justifications cannot be included as well (though in certain cases he was the only state senator not to vote yes). Candidates give reasons for all sorts of things it doesn't make past actions just go away. These are all relevant facts (not opinions) regarding his voting record and he has been criticized widely by Democrats and Republicans alike. There is absolutely no good reason why this crucial aspect of his voting record should be ignored or obscured by the administrators of this page. It seems as though editors of this page are getting their direction from the Obama campaign. If the reason is simply that most of you support Obama or that the Obama campaign is contributing to this article than please just say so. At least that would be a reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 12:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, thanks for the response. I only made the conspiracy theory comment because nobody was giving any reasons and I simply wanted an explanation. That's all. I did propose that more information be added (in the discussion above) and I cited specific sources. Here are some relevant articles:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/20/528491.aspx
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2008/Story?id=4339659&page=2
At the very least the fact that he voted "present" 129 times out of 4,00 votes in the state senate should be included. There should also be some elaboration as to some of the other issues/bills he voted present on as well as a statement to this effect from the Times article above.
"An examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way.
In more than 50 votes, he seemed to be acting in concert with other Democrats as part of a strategy."
There should be some mention of the fact that he has been widely criticized by both Democrats and Republicans alike (including Clinton) for excercisng this neutral political option which is often viewed as a way to "take political cover". There is no reason why Obama's defense cannot also be included as well as a larger picture of why this option is fairly common in Illinois state politics in order to give some fair perspective. There are plenty of direct quotations and facts from the articles above but if you'd rather I draw up the exact language I'm willing to do so. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
K. Kellogg-Smith,
Thankyou for your reply and as I said there's no reason why you cannot include Obama's defense. Did you miss the part where I said his defense should be included? It should definitely be included. But why not include the facts as well as the defense? Simply because the Obama campaign has an official defense does not mean that the information should not be included or is not relevant. It is widely known, among Democrats and Republicans alike, that the "present" vote can be used as an option for politicians to "take political cover" as one commentator in the NY Times said. That is to say, the present vote is a convenient way for Illinois state politicians to avoid taking a stand on controversial votes that could potentially have political ramifications in the future. There are also other purposes served by this option, some of which you addressed. This information should also be included and it should be up to individuals to decide how they weigh this information. You don't have to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Simply state the facts and both sides of this important and relevant issue and let individual users form their own opinions. Why ignore or obscure these undeniable facts? Introducing these information about his voting record does not introduce POV. It's simply a reporting of the facts. Fact: Obama voted present 129 times out of 4,00 votes. Fact: This accounts for 1/31 votes cast. Fact: Partial birth abortion and parental notification issues are not the only issues which votes present nor the only present votes for which he has been criticized, as the article implies now. Fact: Obama has been criticized by both Democrats and Republicans for voting present so many times. Fact: Obama and his campaign have a defense and a justification for these votes.
Why not include all of these facts in the State Leg. section? Its 1 out of 31 votes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 21:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
(c) No bill shall become a law without the concurrence of a majority of the members elected to each house. Final passage of a bill shall be by record vote. In the Senate at the request of two members, and in the House at the request of five members, a record vote may be taken on any other occasion. A record vote is a vote by yeas and nays entered on the journal.
Obama's campaign has argued that he voted "present" either to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy, often characterizing the practice as an Illinois Senate tradition. Senators in the minority often vote present as a way to force the majority party to negotiate. Obama was in the minority party for six of his eight years in the state Senate.
Illinois state Sen. Daniel Cronin calls that characterization a "big overstatement," and believes that voting "present" is a practice that is only "employed on rare occasions."
"You just have to vote 'yes' or 'no,'" Cronin said. "You got to stand up and be counted."
Cronin believes that Obama's votes demonstrate an indecisiveness that is at odds with being an effective commander in chief.
"I don't know whether he was planning for the future, whether he was calculating what his next move was," Cronin said. "Whatever it was, he didn't want to stick his neck out, he didn't want to risk alienating some group. And that sort of ambivalence is sort of scary when you think about a guy who wants to become commander in chief."
Cronin has also voted "present" approximately 100 times.
It's not a matter of attacking his campaign, nor is this just a "campaign issue" brought up solely in a South Carolina debate (as that article would have you believe). Its simply a matter of reporting an element of his voting record in the state leg; a factual, public record. You have a section in the article on his tenure in the state leg and he voted present 129 times over an 8 year span. As the article is written now, the present vote is articulated in a misleading and an incomplete fashion. This is not the whole story. Just give the facts, give some of the criticism, give Obama's defense and give a little persepctive. The Cronin issue is irrelevant as he's not the one running for the highest leadership office in the world. Does Obama's voting record distinguish himself as a leader? That should not be for you guys (the administrators) to decide. It's utterly inappropriate for wikipedia to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Whether you personally feel that its a small issue, the fact remains that there are many who disagree with you and you should simply let his record speak for itself without editing or ignoring details of which you (and Obama) may be a little uncomfortable. Is Obama's campaign manager in the house? Has money exchanged hands here? I've never seen such a biased, one dimensionally positive article of a public figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 05:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no way on Earth that the picture in the article is of Obama. He is making a shot, yet he is not looking towards the hoop. The skin tone on the arms is not Obama's. His facial expression also doesn't lend itself to the picture. THe picture is most definitely photoshopped. wjs23 -19:52 EST 12 March 2008
Why is there no mention of association with Bill Ayers of the Weathermen terrorist group? This has been a significant source of controversy duing his campaign and deserves to be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.70.195 ( talk) 23:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
There has been established no association of note with William Ayers, and this has not "been a significant source of controversy during his campaign," as evidenced by the fact that no one campaigning against him has bothered with it. The Ayers "story" is found in a limited number of places, none of them particularly reputable or journalistic in nature. Pseudo-smears or (particularly weak) attempted guilt-by-association attacks aren't taken seriously or even put forth in the first place by anyone besides those with an anti-Obama or anti-Hillary agenda
Yet more partisanship. Hillary's page is - and says - 'Hillary RODHAM Clinton'. This page CONVENIENTLY hides 'Hussein'. If Obama was ashamed of this name he would have changed his name long ago. STOP RUNNING HIS CAMPAIGN FOR HIM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.5.136.204 ( talk) 08:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
What the <Insert your favorite rude word>! This article has plenty of Emphasis on Obamas middle name, also what does it matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.150.30 ( talk) 00:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
All three top-tier Prez candidates' articles currently are consistent in that they state their full name in bold, and that's the way it should stay. — AMK1211 talk! 20:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}Please remove Obama's middle name, Hussein. It is only there to defame him, since middle names are rarely present at the beginning of articles about people. SteveSims ( talk) 08:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Michaelk08 ( talk) 19:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Please add this uncontroversial info to the end of his Presidential campaign section:
Barack Obama's secret service codename is Renegade. [1]
Thanks! Lawrence § t/ e 18:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Notable? -- HailFire ( talk) 20:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
More info at Secret Service codename. Lawrence § t/ e 21:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Had another look, and though the addition does read as trivia, the cited source that was added with it is current and informative, making the edit more useful overall. So I'm OK with it (but please no future editorializing on any alleged "significance" of the codename, waste of article space). I am more concerned about our use of full protection and the unnecessary strain it puts on editors, admins, and especially the readers (for example, when innocent typos or grammar errors that can be easily fixed in seconds remain because of the time it takes to "discuss" them, and when simple updates take days to perform--see request for a delegate count update that is STILL not in the article). Please, let's not go for one week next time, it's overkill, 2 days is plenty to force a pause and reflect among editors who can't contain their enthusiasms, and blocking the worst offenders is a far less intrusive and more traditional first resort to address such problems. We have SandyGeorgia's assurance that this article is unlikely to lose FA status just because passions have been raised in an election year, and I'd bet few editors understand the WP:FAR process better than she does. So anyone aiming to de-feature this article through constant pestering is unlike to get their hoped for result. -- HailFire ( talk) 05:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Please research details (access legal records in Hawaii,etc...) as to date and venue/auspices of parent's marriage & circumstances of separation & divorce.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 ( talk • contribs)
{{editprotected}} Today is the 14th. Can I edit yet?--
TonyTheTiger (
t/
c/
bio/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:LOTD)
02:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
If He Hadn't Been In The Presidential Race This Article Wouldnt Be Featured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.151.71 ( talk) 03:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] I've just located this. Hope you put a lot of money on that bet! :) -- HailFire ( talk) 16:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the fairness of this edit, Loonymonkey, Andyvphil, and other interested editors should be sure to read Wright's letter to the New York Times dated March 11, 2007. It's published in the this edition of the TUCC Bulletin at page 10. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Andyvphil ( talk) 14:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)The church's motto is "unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian," and sunlight streams through stained glass windows depicting the life of a black Jesus. The Reverend Doctor Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., Trinity's pastor since 1972, flies a red, black, and green flag near his altar and often preaches in a dashiki. He has spent decades writing about the African roots of Christianity, partly as a way to convince young blacks tempted by Islam that Christianity is not "a white man's religion." [14]
{{
editprotected}}
Description: This
update contains the post-Wyoming delegate count as estimated by the Associated Press. Inclusion of current AP delegate estimates in the last line of the
Barack Obama#Presidential campaign summary section has not been disputed. --
HailFire (
talk)
21:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Similar description as above, new
update. Still no dispute on talk about making these updates. --
HailFire (
talk)
22:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
not done}}
Page is no longer fully-protected. Incidentally, I agree that fully-protecting a page in need of such regular maintenance is unhelpful to say the least.
Happy‑
melon
18:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Came to this article looking to finally get myself educated about the candidates for the upcoming election and primaries. The article definitely has some good information about Senator Obama and his positions, many of which I am fond of given what I have read so far. But where are the criticisms? Anyone who is a significant player in the primary race of a major political party is bound to have lots of criticisms floating around about him, justified or not. Why aren't they represented here in an easy to find way? -- Floorsheim ( talk) 02:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me why the following images have been removed from the page:
What B said, and also this: Images must be relevant to the article they appear in and be significant relative to the article's topic. Let's try to be selective, use only the best images, and not clutter the article. For summary sections where article space is most limited, one image is probably best. Others can go in the daughter article where there is more room to expand into sub sections. We should use images to illustrate article content in a way that helps our readers understand the adjoining text. Adding more and more images just because they are available is not really helpful. We've had lots of discussions here about changing, moving, or deleting images, and these discussions have always been cordial. If you have an idea about how to improve the article please tell us, or just go for it. But please don't be offended if our illustration of that particular text already has a previous discussion history, and editors here ask that we pick up the previous discussion where it left off to consider the proposed change. Open to other views. -- HailFire ( talk) 18:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend that any comments added to this talk page that have not been signed in the usual manner be completely ignored from now on. Almost all of them appear to be anti-Obama demands for the inclusion of things that simply don't belong here. There. I've said it. -- Scjessey ( talk) 00:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Something has to give here. Andyvphil continues to make sweeping changes to the article without posting his proposed large revisions for discussion at the talkpage. There's nothing remotely resembling consensus here for such changes. I'm struggling to figure out why it's so difficult to simply write up what you want to see included (especially with such huge changes), let others discuss, tweak, and work with your proposed changes, and then, after building consensus, post the changes. Why is that so difficult to do? If he won't do it, then I may post the proposed changes here, to get a feel for whether or not there is actual consensus to make such changes to the article. Bellwether B C 15:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
What on earth does the start of this article mean?? Is it locked-in vandalism? Site Admins. please advise. 69.69.80.201 ( talk) 23:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
This is hugely relevant. The church that Obama has attended for 20 years, got married in, had his children baptised by, and is quoted as being a mentor to Obama....mysteriously nothing about Wright is in Obama's article. Is wikipedia deliberately leaving out Jeremiah Wright? This man is the subject of huge controversey, far and away noteworthy of inclusion being that he is Obama's pastor of 20 years and now officially part of his campaign. What is the justification for Wright's censorship in this article? I'm certain that as time goes on, the widespread press will compel wiki by force to mention him just to save face, but if we can be honest right now (before that happens), I think it would be prudent to make mention of this in the Obama article (not the campaign article) as his Pastor and his massive controversey is relevant to his personal life, hence, relevant to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.9.46 ( talk) 22:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
To compare the influence of Wright to a dentist or doctor is absurd. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the title of his autobiography was inspired by his proctologist. Jeremiah Wright has been Obama's spiritual mentor for some 20 years now and Obama himself has indentified Wright as one of the people that has most shaped and determined his spiritual and moral outlook. Wright, of course, married Barack and Michelle and was the inspiration for tehn title of Obama's autobiography. In other words, in order to really know Barack Obama one has to know a little something about Jeremiah Wright and that's why a biographical sketch that barely mentions Jeremiah Wright is incomplete and even a little silly. Wright is essential in Obama's formation and that should be the primary criterion for inclusion. Given the close spiritual relationship the two have shared for some 20 years now, the fact that Wright has, over the years, engaged in Black Panther type, anti-American rhetoric is something that every biographical sketch should include. This is all part of the essential formation of Obama's character and worldview. The facts should be presented and readers should be left to judge for themselves how they feel about the whole thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, the difference is that in the case of his basketball coach, therapist etc., you are "presuming." There is no presumption required in the case of Wright. Obama himself has explicitly stated his admiration for Wright and he has emphasized the importance of their relationship and Wright's spiritual mentoring over the years. The title of his autobiography was inspired by one of Wright's sermons for God's sake! Whether its "disparaging" or not is not for you to decide and the fact that it may be perceived as disparaging is not a sufficient reason not to include these objective facts. Again, one cannot know Barack Obama without knowing a little something about Wright but this does not at all imply that Obama necessarily identifies with this Black Panther type rhetoric. In fact, the article should also include Obama's comments to the effect that he often disagrees with Wright's political views. Why don't you guys do a little less worrying about how things might, possibly be perceived and a little more straightforward reporting. Instead of avoiding controversies why don't you give an accurate and fair representation? You guys are way behind the curve on this one and you will have to, at some point, address this issue. Mark my words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 14:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether writes "His therapist, his high school basketball coach, and presumably many others have had as much or more influence on [Obama's] life and thinking as Wright." But the Wikipedia article on Obama's "personal manifesto for his 2008 campaign for the Presidency" notes "The title of 'The Audacity of Hope' was taken from a sermon written by Obama's religious and spiritual mentor, Jeremiah Wright." And, I would add, not merely his religious mentor. Despite being himself a skeptic Obama came to Chicago because he got a job fronting for some white guys, disciples of Saul Alinsky, who wanted to organize the local politics of Chicago's black churches. An obvious asset, Obama was recruited by a number of ministers, but chose about three years later to align himself with Jeremiah Wright's Trinity UCC. Jodi Kantor writes in the NY Times", "Still, Mr. Obama was entranced by Mr. Wright, whose sermons fused analysis of the Bible with outrage at what he saw as the racism of everything from daily life in Chicago to American foreign policy. Mr. Obama had never met a minister who made pilgrimages to Africa, welcomed women leaders and gay members and crooned Teddy Pendergrass rhythm and blues from the pulpit. Mr. Wright was making Trinity a social force, initiating day care, drug counseling, legal aid and tutoring. He was also interested in the world beyond his own; in 1984, he traveled to Cuba to teach Christians about the value of nonviolent protest and to Libya to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, along with the Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan..." [16] In other words, what attracted Obama to Trinity UCC was as much or more Wright's politics as any trancendental appeal. To pretend that Wright's politics are now irrelevant to Obama's biography is the determined blindness of someone who will not see what he doesn't want to see. Andyvphil ( talk) 15:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Then you are simply ignoring what Obama himself has stated repeatedly. If you want to know Obama you have to know a little bit about Pastor Wright and no amount of sophistry will change this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 18:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
B C 20:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC) Bellweather, you accused a couple of us of "pontificating," (to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner) which is at least as much of an insult as "sophistry". It's probably worse. The only difference is that my description was accurate. Do you really think "sophistry" is an insult? My God you are a Democrat aren't you? Also, as I said before, there will come the day, sooner or later, when you will be forced to include a better explanation of Obama's link with Wright IN THIS ARTICLE. I do appreciate the fact that you at least offer a response. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 20:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree with Bellwether's logic (who, btw, began the insults with using the accusation of pontificating). According to Bellwether, we should not include mention of Wright for the same reason that we wouldn't mention "His therapist, his high school basketball coach"....to me this is a grave fallacy. If we use that logic, then we shouldn't mention his wife, his children, or ANY significant individual that has an important and highly esteemed place in his life. How can anyone reasonably state that all the individuals in someone's life should be equivocated to the level of importance as a therapist? Obviously Obama himself has stated the significant influence and place Wright has had in his life. TO leave out this monumentous detail, or to relegate it to the equivalency of some passerby Obama once saw on a bus is a very poor approach to writing. If we are attempting a biography here, then any individual who has significantly shaped Obama (especially when Obama himself states it) is worth mentioning. And 20 years of influence, mentoring and spiritual shaping is something very much worth noting. Honestly, I smell a deliberate attempt to protect Obama here, at the expense of genuine neutrality. No matter how much any of us like a candidate, we must not attempt to censor relevant information. Wright's influence on Obama goes far beyond his campaign...20 years worth. Putting wright in the campaign article is irrelevant. Waiting for media coverage is irrelevant....Wright is a major influence on Obama. Period. This is from Obama himself. No matter what the media does or does not do with Wright, this is a very important component of Obama's life. Wright has such an influence on Obama, he wrote a book after one of his sermons, and in that book Wright is highly esteemed. Basketball coach? Cmon...seriously, are we taking wikipedia to the level of playing a charrade? I cannot believe, given the self-stated significance of Wright in Obama's life, that an editor would postulate that he is of equal weight as some long forgotten basketball coach. Really, such notions to me just waste space on this forum. Is that honestly the consensus here? That Wright's importance in Obama's life should be treated the same as a high school coach? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.9.46 ( talk) 04:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, whether or not it is "guilt by association" is irrelevant if, in fact, the relationship has been important to Obama's formation and development. We are not attempting to smear but you are deliberately omitting relevant and crucial biographical information. Obama himself has admitted on repeated occasions the importance of Wright's spiritual mentoring. Do you dispute Obama's own account? Why can't we just present the relevant facts; Obama's long time relationship with Wright and Wright's Church, the fact that Wright married Obama and his wife and baptized his children, the fact that his autobiography is titled after a sermon given by Wright and the fact that Obama has explicitly expressed the importance of his friendship with Pastor Wright? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 17:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, learning about your best friend for most of your life would indeed tell us something about you. Presumably you guys/girls share many of the same (or at least some of the same) insights, personality traits, interests and hobbies. I'll bet the two of you view the world more similarly than you realize. The fact that your political views are opposed only proves that you cannot reduce a person to his politics. But I would certainly argue that a biographical sketch of your life should include some decription of the relationship with your best friend and that there is no way that this relationship has not changed and affected you even if you do not share the same political worldview. I'm sure you would identify this friend as being important in your life and for that reason alone this friend is worth talking a little bit about. Without a brief description of Obama's relationship with Wright, this article is incomplete. Also, the fact that Obama has begun distancing himself from Wright only relatively recently is indeed telling and indicates a closer political worldview in the past and that his present positions are being affected by his campaign (to a certain extent). These are all things that have to be included and that voters have the RIGHT to know. Deliberate obfuscation is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
[lengthy comment copied by author to "Jeremiah Wright" section, below] Jtextor ( talk) 15:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it? 8thstar 23:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
As 8thstar notes, the following was removed from this page by BellwetherBC with the AGF-impaired comment "rm-ed trolling":
Is it true that Obama's father and step father were muslims, or that he went to a predominantly muslim school? I mean, I read through the whole article but didn't find anything about this, kind of odd. 8thstar 15:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
There are a couple sentences on this in the Personal Life" section, though they're easy to miss. More detailed answers to your questions will be found...um, most of it's at [17]. Bits about his fathers can be dug out of the deleted (alleged "POV split") article now found at [18]. It's pretty clear that he did pray at the mosque with his stepfather, despite the denial on his campaign website, but it's also probable that he was the skeptic his mother raised him to be at least until he decided in his 20's that he could be both doubtful and Christian, if I remember his words in "Audacity of Hope" correctly. So there's no reason to think his contacts with and connections to the Muslim religion are very important biographically. Andyvphil ( talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Favors For (and From) A Shady Chicago Businessman Barack Obama has been friends with Antoin ("Tony") Rezko since at least 1990. Barack interviewed with Rezko for a job in the early 1990s (offered, but declined), and has raised at least $150,000 for Obama's campaigns. Prosecutors charge that at least $10,000 of the money Rezko gave Obama was extorted in return for political favors by a different politician. In return, Barack arranged an internship in 2005 for John Aramanda, the son of a Rezko business associate (Joseph Aramanda, who himself gave Barack $11,500.) There's more. In June, 2005, Obama bought a house in Chicago for $1.65 million ($300,000 below the asking price). The same day, Rezko bought (in his wife's name) the vacant lot next door for $625,000, the full price asked. Seven months later, Rezko sold Barack a slice (1/6th) of his lot so the Obamas could have a bigger yard. There's no evidence that Rezko bought the vacant land for any other reason than to do Obama a favor. The seller would only sell the house if he could sell the lot on the same day. And the lot is only accessible through Obama's yard. Rezko and his wife sold the lot last year to someone they owed money to, and let that person keep the small profit he made. Here's the real problem: among other problems, Rezko is on trial in a federal government corruption case for demanding kickbacks from companies wanting to do business with Illinois Governor Blagojevich, another politician that Rezko has befriended and donated to. (Rezko is also under indictment for shaking down a Hollywood producer for $1.5 million in campaign contributions for Blagojevich. The guy takes care of his political friends.) In fact, Joseph Aramanda is an un indicted co-conspirator in one of the kickback cases. Obama has admitted that the land deal was a mistake, and donated money donated directly by Rezko to charity. His story has changed, though. When the land deal was first reported, Obama said his only contact with Rezko was asking him if it was a good deal. In February 2008, though, one of Obama's staffers admitted that the candidate walked around the house and lot with Rezko. Rezko has said he bought the lot to help the Obamas expand their backyard.
No date, time, signature or IP address yet? Are you saying you want this in the article(and I think you are the same person that put in the Cocaine section)? This discussion page isn't a forum to present allegations about Obama or even a general discussion. JonErber ( talk) 16:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Similar description as above, new update. Still no dispute on talk about making these updates. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a dup of the request made above - it was just moved here to attract more attention. 199.125.109.36 ( talk) 01:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There is only one mention of Obama voting "present" in the Illinois State legislature(in reference to late term abortion votes). The truth is that Obama voted "present" 130 times in the State legislature, on a wide range of issues (not just abortion) and this is something that has to be included in that section of the article. The text, as it stands right now, gives the impression that Obama was criticized only for his present votes with regard to the abortion issue. It does not convey the extent to which he employed this option; an option that is often viewed as a resort for those wishing to "take politcal cover" and to avoid controversial votes which might be held against candidates in their political future. This is an important issue and an essential aspect of his tenure in the State legislature. It is also an essential piece of the Obama political picture as he tries to distinguish himself as the next potential leader of the free world. Can somebody please explain why so much of this information is omitted? This article from the MSNBC/NY Times site can be referenced: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335739/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 19:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Because it's not relevant? A present vote isn't a commitment either way, so maybe we should have a section about just how neutral that dastardly Obama is? 76.25.115.99 ( talk) 06:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"A present vote isn't a commitment either way." Exactly, that's the whole point and it is, in fact, very relevant. The fact that he refused to take a stand no less than 130 times in the State legislature is something that should be included in the State Leg. section. Can anyone else provide a good reason why this important information is not included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk • contribs)
How many times did he take a stand in the same period? What issues didn't he take a stand on? Those to have direct bearing on whether it is important enough to include. Jons63 ( talk) 16:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Jons63 asked:"How many times did he take a stand in the same period? What issues didn't he take a stand on?"
Well, here is more specific information:
"For example, in 1997, Obama voted "present" on two bills (HB 382 and SB 230) that would have prohibited a procedure often referred to as partial birth abortion. He also voted "present" on SB 71, which lowered the first offense of carrying a concealed weapon from a felony to a misdemeanor and raised the penalty of subsequent offenses.
In 1999, Obama voted "present" on SB 759, a bill that required mandatory adult prosecution for firing a gun on or near school grounds. The bill passed the state Senate 52-1. Also in 1999, Obama voted "present" on HB 854 that protected the privacy of sex-abuse victims by allowing petitions to have the trial records sealed. He was the only member to not support the bill.
In 2001, Obama voted "present" on two parental notification abortion bills (HB 1900 and SB 562), and he voted "present" on a series of bills (SB 1093, 1094, 1095) that sought to protect a child if it survived a failed abortion. In his book, the "Audacity of Hope," on page 132, Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no."
And finally in 2001, Obama voted "present" on SB 609, a bill prohibiting strip clubs and other adult establishments from being within 1,000 feet of schools, churches, and daycares."-Wall Street Journal
"An examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way.
In more than 50 votes, he seemed to be acting in concert with other Democrats as part of a strategy.
For a juvenile-justice bill, lobbyists and fellow lawmakers say, a political calculus could have been behind Mr. Obama’s present vote. On other measures like the anti-abortion bills, which Republicans proposed, Mr. Obama voted present to help more vulnerable Democrats under pressure to cast “no” votes.
In other cases, Mr. Obama’s present votes stood out among widespread support as he tried to use them to register legal and other objections to parts of the bills.
In Illinois, political experts say voting present is a relatively common way for lawmakers to express disapproval of a measure. It can at times help avoid running the risks of voting no, they add.
“If you are worried about your next election, the present vote gives you political cover,” said Kent D. Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield. “This is an option that does not exist in every state and reflects Illinois political culture.”"-NY Times
"THE FACTS: Obama acknowledges that over nearly eight years in the Illinois Senate, he voted "present" 129 times. That was out of roughly 4,000 votes he cast, so those "presents" amounted to about one of every 31 votes in his legislative career." - http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
Does anyone actually have a good reason why this information should not be included or are we going to simply engage in ad hominems and claim that anyone who could possibly think that the fact that he voted a neutral present 130 (or 129 as he claims) times in the State legislature should be included is an "anti-Obama crusader?" It is true that other Illinois State senators take advantage of this unique political option and there is no reason why that cannot be stated in the article as well. Furthermore, simply because other senators excercised the same option does not render it insignificant. This is the guy running for the highest leadership office in the world. I'm not saying that Obama's defense cannot be included in the article but to omit such a crucial aspect of his tenure in the State Leg. is inexcuable and calls into serious question the political biases and motives of wikipedia. The editors and administrators of this page have to step up and do a little work here as the information is relatively easy to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 14:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has a good answer, huh?
I copied my response from below:
K. Kellogg-Smith,
Thankyou for your reply and as I said there's no reason why you cannot include Obama's defense. Did you miss the part where I said his defense should be included? It should definitely be included. But why not include the facts as well as the defense? Simply because the Obama campaign has an official defense does not mean that the information should not be included or is not relevant. It is widely known, among Democrats and Republicans alike, that the "present" vote can be used as an option for politicians to "take political cover" as one commentator in the NY Times said. That is to say, the present vote is a convenient way for Illinois state politicians to avoid taking a stand on controversial votes that could potentially have political ramifications in the future. There are also other purposes served by this option, some of which you addressed. This information should also be included and it should be up to individuals to decide how they weigh this information. You don't have to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Simply state the facts and both sides of this important and relevant issue and let individual users form their own opinions. Why ignore or obscure these undeniable facts? Introducing this information about his voting record does not introduce POV. It's simply a reporting of the facts. Fact: Obama voted present 129 times out of 4,00 votes. Fact: This accounts for 1/31 votes cast. Fact: Partial birth abortion and parental notification issues are not the only issues which votes present nor the only present votes for which he has been criticized, as the article implies now. Fact: Obama has been criticized by both Democrats and Republicans for voting present so many times. Fact: Obama and his campaign have a defense and a justification for these votes.
Why not include all of these facts in the State Leg. section? Its 1 out of 31 votes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 21:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, it's really not for you to decide what the critical percentage should be. Just include the facts and let his record speak for itself without ignoring and hiding those aspects of his record which make you and the other Obamaniacs that administer this article a little uncomfortable. 129 times is a 129 times. And 3%, in this case, is not insignificant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 05:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
-- HailFire ( talk) 07:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Yup. 3% is significant there as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Practical question: How is present different than 'no'? I thought in order to pass a bill needed a majority. "Present" and "no" do not add to the majority.
{{ editprotected}} Please add: sl:Barack Obama. -- AndrejJ ( talk) 13:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
When the article mentions his father's birth, it notes that he is of Luo ethnicity. I think it would be factually relevant to note, similarly, after mentioning his mother's birthplace that she is Caucasian or of white American ethnicity. I say this because his being mixed race seems a significant and interesting aspect of his early life and his background. It explains factually why the article refers to his "multiracial" heritage later. Admittedly, the article later backs into this fact by quoting him as comparing his mother's skin to milk, but that seems a back-door way to give a relevant fact. I raise this point with absolutely no hidden political agenda: I am not suggesting this go in as a way to make him look good or bad, instead I think it should go in because it is as relevant to who he is and to what he represents. 66.92.173.67 ( talk) 02:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone be willing to make a list of every bill Obama voted on, including how he voted? For me, personally, since Obama is a politician what he voted on and how he voted makes more of a difference than his personal history and aknowledged character traits, especially when it comes to deciding whether or not to vote for him as President. Thanks in advance to the person willing to take on the task.
PS: It doesn't look very good on the Obama campaign that they haven't created this list already. Are they attempting to ignore Obama's voting record? ~Alma Entity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.151.116 ( talk) 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
68 wrote: for that reason alone this friend is worth talking a little bit about. So maybe this dispute comes down to how we define the meaning of the word little. For me, this version that made a brief appearance earlier today had at least some consensus building potential. I would also suggest we add text linking the term black church to help interested readers put that term in historical and cultural context. Can we establish an interim consensus for restoring that version while discussion about any necessary additions continues? We need to hear from editors on both side of this ongoing condense/expand debate. Any support? -- HailFire ( talk) 15:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
this version is not bad but it does not go quite far enough, IMO. There is far more to the relationship than that passage details. For example, they were close friends over a 20 year span, Wright baptized Obama and his children and married he and Michelle, Obama attended Church there regularly for some 14 years and Wright served (he just left this position a few days ago) with Obama's campaign ("African American Religious Leadership Committee"). Are we to believe that Obama was not regularly exposed to or familiar with Wright's inflammatory rhetoric? As someone said abov, those of us that attend Church regularly would have a hard time sitting through sermons we strongly disagree with and find offensive, week after week, year after year. This is not proof that Obama holds these views but it is "evidence" that would be admitted in a court of law. In any event, the facts should be included, in addition to Obama's recent denouncements and readers should be left to judge for themselves. The basic principle of this "guilt by association" factor is that though one is not responsible for the views of one's friends, we are responsible for how we react to the views of our friends and associates. Obama has certainly had many years of experience and friendship with Wright and thus he has had many opportunities to denounce Wright's extreme worldview and Wright's praise of Farakhan and others. The fact that he is only explicitly and publically doing so recently does raise questions. It's certainly possible to have friends and associates that one disagrees with but we are responsible for, at the very least, making our disagreements known and articulating the reasons for our disagreements. There is also a direct proportion between how evil and hateful the views expressed by others (especially friends) and how great is our responibility to speak out forecully against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 17:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that wikipedia must speak out forcefully. I said that Barack Obama is responsible for the ways in which he reacted over the years to Wright's inflammatory and sometimes hate-filled and anti-American rhetoric. Some might say that his failure to speak out forcefully might imply some kind of tacit consent (this is of course speculation). In any event, Wikipedia IS responsible for reporting relevant facts and truths regardless of whether these facts or truths are controversial or uncomfortable for the Obama supporters that seem to control the content of this page. This article purports to be a biographical sketch and as such, should include the relevant details of Obama's longtime friendship and protege relationship with Wright. As it stands, the article is incomplete and misleading. It seems that the only "personal opinions that are relevant" are those of Obama's supporters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 20:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
How about this? Any better? -- HailFire ( talk) 21:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Every other politician who has a biography I've read here at Wikipedia has a "Criticism and controversy" section. Where is the "Criticism and controversy" section in this article? Barack Obama has been the subject of a lot of criticism, especially in the past seven days with the Tony Rezko trial and the Jeremiah Wright controversy, but you'd never know it from reading this article. Let's do our best to be NPOV here. Who would like to step forward and draft the new section? Kossack4Truth ( talk) 00:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Other than the first five years of their friendship, you make a lot of hot air but I'm not sure how much "there" is there for your claims." You're not sure indeed. Obama himself has repeatedly admitted to the fact that Wright was his close friend and spiritual mentor for some 20 years and that he brought him to the Christian faith. Obama attended sermons there for 14 years(!) and Wright even served in Obama's campaign. As I'm sure you know, there is no law that one has to be married or baptized in one's hometown parish and that's exactly why people usually choose to be married by priests/pastors that they have a personal relationship with. And Obama titled his autobiogrpahy after a sermon given by Pastor Wright... Yes they were, in point of fact, very close friends and Obama has stated as much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 04:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, to my mind that's a little better but there is still quite a bit missing and readers do not get an accurate sense of the depth of their relationship. I appreciate your efforts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 04:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys - be real clear here: there are people out there who believe that you can't criticize Obama AT ALL, and they are never going to change their minds. Arguing with them is pointless. For this reason, you make a relevant change like the new one to the presidential campaign section, and defend it with facts. As you can see, you get some idiot who wants to 'revert to the last version that made sense,' however facts have this way of asserting themselves, and you can pretty much rely on them, no matter how big a skeptic you are.
Obama is a disciple of Wright. <BLP slander violation reverted (strike 2)
72.0.180.2 (
talk) 19:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)>. The involvement of Wright in his campaign is relevant AND historical, and belongs in his record. To say that a man is not influenced by the opinions of his pastor of twenty years, who officiated his marriage and baptised his children, is ludicrous and the other campaigns are all over it. It isn't going away.(
talk)
12:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
72.0.180.2, what's your point? Simply reporting and including the FACTS is not advocacy. Willfully, ignoring pertinent, relevant facts is advocacy. If your only point is that the fact that Wright baptized Obama, married he and his wife and baptized both his children is only an accident of Wright's capacity to perform the various sacramental functions of a pastor, I'm afraid you're still missing the main idea. It was his friendship and personal relationship with Wright that brought him to the United Church of Christ to begin with. This is a particular kind of Church; a Church which incorporates afrocentricisn and black power politics with the teachings of Christianity. Of course, were Obama only interested in the teachings of Christianity per se he could have been baptized into one of the more mainstream Christian branches like Catholicism, Presbyterianism, Southern Baptism or whatever. But he didn't, he joined this particular kind of Christian Church and he did so precisely because of his relationship with Wright. That Wright has been a part of so many of Obama's fundamental life experiences (wedding, baptisms etc.) is something which has only deepened their personal bond. Are you denying that the 2 shared a close friendship over the years? Are you denying that Wright was Obama's most important spiritual and religious influence? Are you denying that Obama attended Church services at that Church for some 14 years? Are you denying that Obama titled his autobiography after a sermon by Wright? Are you denying that Wright served, until just a few days ago, in Obama's campaign? What exactly are you saying? Was Wright not an important influence in Obama's life? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
No, those were pretty much my points —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fovean Author ( talk • contribs) 15:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel BLP policy allows us to RV talk page statements that do not discuss, or barely discuss, the actual article and are "drive-by" posted by IP's who do not otherwise participate. Specifically I feel this is a form of advocacy, prohibited on talk pages. It also, sometimes, bumps up against BLP content policies. So, like good editors, I feel we should discuss this before i start unilaterally making edits. lol andy. 72.0.180.2 ( talk) 02:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC) also remember not to feed them people....
I have read they are going to show a common candidature, with Obama as President and Hillary as Vicepresident.-- Nopetro ( talk) 06:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Given all of the innuendo and discussion about Rezko and Obama in the media, I think we need to have a page somewhere (not on this page) that discusses this relationship in full so that we can link to it if people want the full information. I bring this up here so that those involved in the Obama articles can have some input. Also, the recent full interview he gave with the Chicago Tribune goes into great detail about what exactly happened and would be useful for anyone who wants to create a better description of the facts in wikipedia Link to story. Remember ( talk) 14:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Clearly this is a popular article at the moment. The normal procedure of making bold edits isn't going to work here because there is so much disagreement and controversy over every single edit. Please seek a broad consensus (from established editors) on this talk page for anything other than minor grammatical changes. -- Scjessey ( talk) 12:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The article was long overdue an update on primary results etc, the article magically managed to avoids the fact that clinton had own anything lol. As for the stuff on his reverand, there has been discussion and the article provides a little snipet of info on the issue, it can be expanded latter but the bare bones of the story are down which is a good thing. Realist2 ( talk) 12:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey is engaging in mass unconsidered reverts with misleading edit summarys and falsely marking his reverts as minor. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. He's restoring outright errors (the mistitling of the pronunciation cite and the misattribution and misquotation of Soetoro-Ng spring to mind) and deleting "pro-Obama" material (the community-organizer and voter registration are obvious examples) that I'm sure he would be quite happy with if he actually looked at it, as well as the NPOV stuff he doesn't want to see. And he's violated 3RR. Time to ask admin help, I think. Andyvphil ( talk) 13:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC) Added another. Hes made 5 reverts. -- Realist2 ( talk) 14:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Although Scjessey describes me as a "moron" I will say, this is NOT the place to make accusations of sock puppetry!!!!!!!! Fovean Author, thing about what your saying when you make such accusations. If you have evidence to support your claims report it, but DONT bring it here. -- Realist2 ( talk) 20:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree about your content concerns but accusations of SP are a no no. -- Realist2 ( talk) 20:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Rev. Wright is more than just a campaign issue. He was a major influence and inspiritation in Obama's life and spiritual formation. Knowing about the longtime relationship with Wright is certainly more important than knowing that Barack likes chili and is a "pretty good poker player." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, we should also reinstate the removed information of their long standing friendship as well as the criticism obama recieved for not reacting strongly or swiftely. Realist2 ( talk) 16:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello all. I didn't see the plea to build consensus on "anything other than minor grammatical changes" before I expanded the Wright controversy section and added some brief mention of related criticisms. I apologize. Under normal circumstances, I'd probably never go to a talk page for fixing an obvious problem like an oddly misdirected section topic. Basically, the previous title for the section (and subsequent prose) read: "The media were criticized for not criticizing Obama, so then they criticized him". I thought it was prudent to clarify that the section is about Obama, not the Media.
I also added a few sourced paragraphs for a greater "criticism during presidential campaign" section about related scrutiny. Objections? Okiefromokla questions? 04:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
A member's of the antivirus avast company, create hoax trojan rogueiframe. this member with desired will destabilize the credibility of the official website of barack obama to the presidency of the USA. for that it took the code which has to find on the site and to declare like important Trojan. the inofancif code of this hoax :
document.write('<iframe src="page.html" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" hspace="0" vspace="0" frameborder="0" height="1" scrolling="no" width="1"></iframe>')
March 17 this imaginary Trojan is set up, it will take 24 hours for the company of avast to react and remove this false information this day.
link RoguIframe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.248.230.186 ( talk) 17:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I just think this section is urgently needed. In the Ron Paul article one of the largest sections was in reference to the "newsletter controversy" which supposedly wasn't directly an act of Ron Paul, but associated with him. The controversy about Obama attending a black nationalist church and his preachers radical speeches could not be more similar to the Ron Paul controversy even in fiction. Tthe Ron Paul section was up as fast as the news broke, where is the info here? The Black Value System (now removed from his churches website but available on the web archive): 1. Commitment to God 2. Commitment to the Black Community 3. Commitment to the Black Family 4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education 5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence 7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect 8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of ‘Middleclassness’ 9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community 10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions 11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System 12. Personal commitment to embaracement of the Black Value System.’ Essentially switch the word black with aryan and you get the picture. It's breaking in the mainstream already. Some links to his preachers speechers would be handy in the article. The other candidates pages seem to include a lot more criticism where as this looks almost as though its a baseball card talking about his vast achievements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.246.211.229 ( talk) 18:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I second that, a section on his chruch's controversy is greaty needed KingsOfHearts ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Andyvphil, please summarize them here for us. Kindly keep your descriptions of each POV-flaw-by-omission short and to the point, and number them (by beginning each new line with #) for easy reference. It will be a kind of mini-FAR with less fanfare, and we can deal with each of the problems one-by-one. Thanks. -- HailFire ( talk) 00:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Odd that the article fails to mention some stats consider Mr Obama's voting record to be the most liberal in the Senate. Anyone object to me adding it? ( http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/) Francium12 ( talk) 17:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems some would like to distance Obama from his solid liberal credentials, but it's not an "objective quality" if you put it in terms such as The National Journal rating Obama the most liberal senator in 2007. http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/ Congressional ratings from the National Journal, from the American Conservative Union - not only are these ratings informative, allowing people to make comparisons of the voting records of different candidates, but there is also precendence for giving creedence to these ratings all throught Wiki. Shikamoo ( talk) 16:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
And yet you see no problem with subjective sentences in the article such as, "Time magazine's Joe Klein wrote that the book 'may be the best-written memoir ever produced by an American politician.'" or, "...Time magazine named him one of 'the world's most influential people.'" as long as he is praised, eh? Blarvink ( talk) 12:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I did a search for the words "liberal" and "conservative" in Obama's page and in McCain's page, and the results were very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.165.98 ( talk) 18:35, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
The "most liberal" rating is a smear tactic. It's used in the pejorative, typically on whoever is going to be the Democratic nominee. Same thing happened with John Kerry in '04. You expect me to believe Obama is more progressive than Russ Feingold or to the left of Bernie Sanders? Please. Adding something like this to the article only politicizes it into a tool for one side's agenda. Fifty7 ( talk) 20:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
But he's an orthodox liberal as evidenced by his voting record. The only thing I dislike more than partisanship on Wikipedia is the intentional concealment of facts. Koalorka ( talk) 00:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree wholly with the assertions regarding content, and the appearance of selective editing in this article, made by davidp, Francium12, Shikamoo, Blarvink, Cogswobble, Fishal, and Kaolorka. The tone of the discussion appears to this newbie to be weighted heavily with bias in favor of a double standard regarding inclusion of material which might give a reader cause to pause when considering the personal integrity and personal character of Barack Obama.
These points are especially relevant in an article about the personal life, and therefore the personal integrity and personal character, of any person who seeks the highest office in the land.
Asserting that links to anything critical of Obama are solely political, and should be inserted only in the Obama campaign page, and that such action is sufficient to fill the need/desire for information on the part of a reader of this article on the personal life and personal character/integrity of Obama would seem to be in accord with the assertion of the appearance of selective editing in this discussion.
Unless all Obama pages are rolled into that covering his Presidential Campaign, it does seem useful to convey in this article information about just who the man 'is' and what he is 'about'. Facts and references about investigations of the nature of his dealings and relations with Tony Rezko in the purchase of his home, as well as his decades-long membership in the Afro-centric and somewhat radical-left Trinity UCC, are obviously relevant to any reader seeking to know more about the personal integrity and character, as well as the overall personal religious beliefs, of any person seeking the Presidency. Therefore, such facts, along with such as those made by the above referenced contributors, should be included in any article about the 'personal life' of any major public figure. -- Whraglyn ( talk) 04:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Added the reference with citation. -- Davidp ( talk) 14:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I have a solution for our problem: Why not simply state that Obama has an "[adjective] liberal voting record" and simply link the article as a source. This delivers the information without using loaded terms such as "most liberal" which are largely subjective and relatively meaningless. I don't think anyone wants to "hide" Obama's voting record, but if it's going to be a central point of discussion it should be NPOV. There is no need to cite the article; we can still deliver the relevant information in other ways. 70.108.21.116 ( talk) 02:55, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
In looking at the edit history of this page, I see a number of editors that could be submitted for blocks due to edit warring, but rather than go that route (blocks=bad), I figured I'd request temporary full protection for the article instead. [1] Seriously, how about y'all try to use the dispute resolution process rather than this unending edit war. -- Bobblehead (rants) 17:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
do you not understand what "check my history" means, or do you just like to pose? classic andyvphil: getting lectured in 3 different talk threads at the same time. hilarious 72.0.180.2 ( talk) 03:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I won't excuse myself from fault or point fingers. However, I do think that sometimes the problem with trying to build consensus is getting everyone to take part in good faith. Where does the questioned edit belong during the time that consensus is being discussed? If someone puts it into the article, those that feel it doesn't belong revert summarizing, "no consensus for this inclusion (see talk)". If it's taken out, those who feel it does belong revert summarizing, "no consensus for this removal (see talk)". → Wordbuilder ( talk) 02:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
How about we return the Barack Obama#Personal life section to this version dating from 14 January, agreeing to seek prior consensus here on any proposed additions to that section, at least until things have settled? Any support, fellow editors? -- HailFire ( talk) 18:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC) {{ editprotected}}
Andyvphil, please specify the POV flaws that you find in this paragraph that would prevent you from endorsing it as an agreed resume point for seeking consensus. -- HailFire ( talk) 21:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] Facts can be hard to pin down sometimes. The web site GovTrack.us categorizes Senator Obama as a "Rank and File Democrat" using a statistical analysis that offers a compelling case for being NPOV. [11] As for the notion that there was ever any plan for Trinity UCC to host Obama's presidential campaign announcement, you may want to double check that. -- HailFire ( talk) 15:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I am preparing to nominate this article for a third
featured article review on the grounds that it now fails
featured article criteria 1(e) which states in part: the article is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and that its content does not change significantly from day to day, except for edits made in response to the featured article process. If Andyvphil or any other editor who may hold additional concerns about the article wishes to make the nomination before I do, that is OK by me. --
HailFire (
talk) 13:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC) -- Strikeouts added, per guidance from SandyGeorgia. --
HailFire (
talk) 23:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)] -- OUT. --
HailFire (
talk)
00:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't the edit protection prevent edit wars? I think the article the way it is now is fine, and perhaps the protection should be extended. Of course it will need to be updated at some point. JonErber ( talk) 14:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to wait until the protection is removed and then see what happens with the article before nominating it for a featured article review? I know it's wishful thinking, but there's a slim chance that we can learn to get along. If we can't, then proceed. But, not before. → Wordbuilder ( talk) 19:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's please try to correct a misunderstanding. Wikipedia:Featured article review is NOT where articles go to be de-featured, it's where they go to be improved. We've been through it twice now and always this article has come out of the process better than before. I hesitate before taking that step because the skilled editors who invest their time in addressing FAR issues are already an overworked bunch, and it doesn't seem right to distract them from work on articles that need urgent attention just because minor segments of this article are gyrating back and forth and failing WP:FACR 1(e).
But it is Andyvphil who has claimed more substantive faults with this article by stating plainly: I don't want it to have undeserved FA status unless its POV flaws are corrected. Because of this, he really is the editor best placed to lead us into a more meaningful FAR. And in case anyone may have missed this nuance, articles undergoing FAR must be made available for editing. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Just one thing you should all be aware of: anyone who thinks FAR may be a quick fix will be sadly disappointed. Articles are at FAR for at least a month, more like two. I strongly recommend that you all try to work this out without a FAR. Most of the people who regularly review articles there are experienced enough to understand that it is expected that this article will see some tough times this year and will be slow to defeature it simply because of election year differences. If the article has to be protected because of the circumstances, that's not a good reason for defeaturing, and more importantly, won't solve your underlying differences. I suggest you try other options in dispute resolution first, like request for comment, etc. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}} Says Washingon instead of Washington
Still waiting for an answer.
"THE FACTS: Obama acknowledges that over nearly eight years in the Illinois Senate, he voted "present" 129 times. That was out of roughly 4,000 votes he cast, so those "presents" amounted to about one of every 31 votes in his legislative career." - http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
He voted present on a wide range of issues including many which garnered bipartisan support. Why isn't this information included? How is this information not relevant? This article and the wiki administrators are incredibly biased.
Lid, thanks for the reply but I don't understand why that information did not make it into this article under the State Leg. section. Also, it's not just a campaign issue or something that was brought up by Obama's opponent in the context of a South Carolina debate. This (the fact that he voted present 129 times) is a demonstrable fact and as it notes above, a present vote accounted for 1 out of every 31 votes he cast over his 8 year tenure. This was a consistent pattern that emerges from his voting record as a State Legislator. Of course, the fact that Obama gives reasons justifying these votes is no reason not to include this information and there is no reason why his own justifications cannot be included as well (though in certain cases he was the only state senator not to vote yes). Candidates give reasons for all sorts of things it doesn't make past actions just go away. These are all relevant facts (not opinions) regarding his voting record and he has been criticized widely by Democrats and Republicans alike. There is absolutely no good reason why this crucial aspect of his voting record should be ignored or obscured by the administrators of this page. It seems as though editors of this page are getting their direction from the Obama campaign. If the reason is simply that most of you support Obama or that the Obama campaign is contributing to this article than please just say so. At least that would be a reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 12:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, thanks for the response. I only made the conspiracy theory comment because nobody was giving any reasons and I simply wanted an explanation. That's all. I did propose that more information be added (in the discussion above) and I cited specific sources. Here are some relevant articles:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/12/20/528491.aspx
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2008/Story?id=4339659&page=2
At the very least the fact that he voted "present" 129 times out of 4,00 votes in the state senate should be included. There should also be some elaboration as to some of the other issues/bills he voted present on as well as a statement to this effect from the Times article above.
"An examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way.
In more than 50 votes, he seemed to be acting in concert with other Democrats as part of a strategy."
There should be some mention of the fact that he has been widely criticized by both Democrats and Republicans alike (including Clinton) for excercisng this neutral political option which is often viewed as a way to "take political cover". There is no reason why Obama's defense cannot also be included as well as a larger picture of why this option is fairly common in Illinois state politics in order to give some fair perspective. There are plenty of direct quotations and facts from the articles above but if you'd rather I draw up the exact language I'm willing to do so. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
K. Kellogg-Smith,
Thankyou for your reply and as I said there's no reason why you cannot include Obama's defense. Did you miss the part where I said his defense should be included? It should definitely be included. But why not include the facts as well as the defense? Simply because the Obama campaign has an official defense does not mean that the information should not be included or is not relevant. It is widely known, among Democrats and Republicans alike, that the "present" vote can be used as an option for politicians to "take political cover" as one commentator in the NY Times said. That is to say, the present vote is a convenient way for Illinois state politicians to avoid taking a stand on controversial votes that could potentially have political ramifications in the future. There are also other purposes served by this option, some of which you addressed. This information should also be included and it should be up to individuals to decide how they weigh this information. You don't have to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Simply state the facts and both sides of this important and relevant issue and let individual users form their own opinions. Why ignore or obscure these undeniable facts? Introducing these information about his voting record does not introduce POV. It's simply a reporting of the facts. Fact: Obama voted present 129 times out of 4,00 votes. Fact: This accounts for 1/31 votes cast. Fact: Partial birth abortion and parental notification issues are not the only issues which votes present nor the only present votes for which he has been criticized, as the article implies now. Fact: Obama has been criticized by both Democrats and Republicans for voting present so many times. Fact: Obama and his campaign have a defense and a justification for these votes.
Why not include all of these facts in the State Leg. section? Its 1 out of 31 votes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 21:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
(c) No bill shall become a law without the concurrence of a majority of the members elected to each house. Final passage of a bill shall be by record vote. In the Senate at the request of two members, and in the House at the request of five members, a record vote may be taken on any other occasion. A record vote is a vote by yeas and nays entered on the journal.
Obama's campaign has argued that he voted "present" either to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy, often characterizing the practice as an Illinois Senate tradition. Senators in the minority often vote present as a way to force the majority party to negotiate. Obama was in the minority party for six of his eight years in the state Senate.
Illinois state Sen. Daniel Cronin calls that characterization a "big overstatement," and believes that voting "present" is a practice that is only "employed on rare occasions."
"You just have to vote 'yes' or 'no,'" Cronin said. "You got to stand up and be counted."
Cronin believes that Obama's votes demonstrate an indecisiveness that is at odds with being an effective commander in chief.
"I don't know whether he was planning for the future, whether he was calculating what his next move was," Cronin said. "Whatever it was, he didn't want to stick his neck out, he didn't want to risk alienating some group. And that sort of ambivalence is sort of scary when you think about a guy who wants to become commander in chief."
Cronin has also voted "present" approximately 100 times.
It's not a matter of attacking his campaign, nor is this just a "campaign issue" brought up solely in a South Carolina debate (as that article would have you believe). Its simply a matter of reporting an element of his voting record in the state leg; a factual, public record. You have a section in the article on his tenure in the state leg and he voted present 129 times over an 8 year span. As the article is written now, the present vote is articulated in a misleading and an incomplete fashion. This is not the whole story. Just give the facts, give some of the criticism, give Obama's defense and give a little persepctive. The Cronin issue is irrelevant as he's not the one running for the highest leadership office in the world. Does Obama's voting record distinguish himself as a leader? That should not be for you guys (the administrators) to decide. It's utterly inappropriate for wikipedia to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Whether you personally feel that its a small issue, the fact remains that there are many who disagree with you and you should simply let his record speak for itself without editing or ignoring details of which you (and Obama) may be a little uncomfortable. Is Obama's campaign manager in the house? Has money exchanged hands here? I've never seen such a biased, one dimensionally positive article of a public figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 05:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no way on Earth that the picture in the article is of Obama. He is making a shot, yet he is not looking towards the hoop. The skin tone on the arms is not Obama's. His facial expression also doesn't lend itself to the picture. THe picture is most definitely photoshopped. wjs23 -19:52 EST 12 March 2008
Why is there no mention of association with Bill Ayers of the Weathermen terrorist group? This has been a significant source of controversy duing his campaign and deserves to be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.178.70.195 ( talk) 23:34, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
There has been established no association of note with William Ayers, and this has not "been a significant source of controversy during his campaign," as evidenced by the fact that no one campaigning against him has bothered with it. The Ayers "story" is found in a limited number of places, none of them particularly reputable or journalistic in nature. Pseudo-smears or (particularly weak) attempted guilt-by-association attacks aren't taken seriously or even put forth in the first place by anyone besides those with an anti-Obama or anti-Hillary agenda
Yet more partisanship. Hillary's page is - and says - 'Hillary RODHAM Clinton'. This page CONVENIENTLY hides 'Hussein'. If Obama was ashamed of this name he would have changed his name long ago. STOP RUNNING HIS CAMPAIGN FOR HIM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.5.136.204 ( talk) 08:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
What the <Insert your favorite rude word>! This article has plenty of Emphasis on Obamas middle name, also what does it matter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.150.30 ( talk) 00:08, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
All three top-tier Prez candidates' articles currently are consistent in that they state their full name in bold, and that's the way it should stay. — AMK1211 talk! 20:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}Please remove Obama's middle name, Hussein. It is only there to defame him, since middle names are rarely present at the beginning of articles about people. SteveSims ( talk) 08:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Michaelk08 ( talk) 19:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Please add this uncontroversial info to the end of his Presidential campaign section:
Barack Obama's secret service codename is Renegade. [1]
Thanks! Lawrence § t/ e 18:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Notable? -- HailFire ( talk) 20:52, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
More info at Secret Service codename. Lawrence § t/ e 21:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Had another look, and though the addition does read as trivia, the cited source that was added with it is current and informative, making the edit more useful overall. So I'm OK with it (but please no future editorializing on any alleged "significance" of the codename, waste of article space). I am more concerned about our use of full protection and the unnecessary strain it puts on editors, admins, and especially the readers (for example, when innocent typos or grammar errors that can be easily fixed in seconds remain because of the time it takes to "discuss" them, and when simple updates take days to perform--see request for a delegate count update that is STILL not in the article). Please, let's not go for one week next time, it's overkill, 2 days is plenty to force a pause and reflect among editors who can't contain their enthusiasms, and blocking the worst offenders is a far less intrusive and more traditional first resort to address such problems. We have SandyGeorgia's assurance that this article is unlikely to lose FA status just because passions have been raised in an election year, and I'd bet few editors understand the WP:FAR process better than she does. So anyone aiming to de-feature this article through constant pestering is unlike to get their hoped for result. -- HailFire ( talk) 05:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Please research details (access legal records in Hawaii,etc...) as to date and venue/auspices of parent's marriage & circumstances of separation & divorce.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 ( talk • contribs)
{{editprotected}} Today is the 14th. Can I edit yet?--
TonyTheTiger (
t/
c/
bio/
WP:CHICAGO/
WP:LOTD)
02:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
If He Hadn't Been In The Presidential Race This Article Wouldnt Be Featured. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.151.71 ( talk) 03:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
[outdent] I've just located this. Hope you put a lot of money on that bet! :) -- HailFire ( talk) 16:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the fairness of this edit, Loonymonkey, Andyvphil, and other interested editors should be sure to read Wright's letter to the New York Times dated March 11, 2007. It's published in the this edition of the TUCC Bulletin at page 10. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Andyvphil ( talk) 14:54, 8 March 2008 (UTC)The church's motto is "unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian," and sunlight streams through stained glass windows depicting the life of a black Jesus. The Reverend Doctor Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., Trinity's pastor since 1972, flies a red, black, and green flag near his altar and often preaches in a dashiki. He has spent decades writing about the African roots of Christianity, partly as a way to convince young blacks tempted by Islam that Christianity is not "a white man's religion." [14]
{{
editprotected}}
Description: This
update contains the post-Wyoming delegate count as estimated by the Associated Press. Inclusion of current AP delegate estimates in the last line of the
Barack Obama#Presidential campaign summary section has not been disputed. --
HailFire (
talk)
21:08, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
editprotected}}
Similar description as above, new
update. Still no dispute on talk about making these updates. --
HailFire (
talk)
22:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
{{
not done}}
Page is no longer fully-protected. Incidentally, I agree that fully-protecting a page in need of such regular maintenance is unhelpful to say the least.
Happy‑
melon
18:08, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Came to this article looking to finally get myself educated about the candidates for the upcoming election and primaries. The article definitely has some good information about Senator Obama and his positions, many of which I am fond of given what I have read so far. But where are the criticisms? Anyone who is a significant player in the primary race of a major political party is bound to have lots of criticisms floating around about him, justified or not. Why aren't they represented here in an easy to find way? -- Floorsheim ( talk) 02:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Can someone tell me why the following images have been removed from the page:
What B said, and also this: Images must be relevant to the article they appear in and be significant relative to the article's topic. Let's try to be selective, use only the best images, and not clutter the article. For summary sections where article space is most limited, one image is probably best. Others can go in the daughter article where there is more room to expand into sub sections. We should use images to illustrate article content in a way that helps our readers understand the adjoining text. Adding more and more images just because they are available is not really helpful. We've had lots of discussions here about changing, moving, or deleting images, and these discussions have always been cordial. If you have an idea about how to improve the article please tell us, or just go for it. But please don't be offended if our illustration of that particular text already has a previous discussion history, and editors here ask that we pick up the previous discussion where it left off to consider the proposed change. Open to other views. -- HailFire ( talk) 18:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend that any comments added to this talk page that have not been signed in the usual manner be completely ignored from now on. Almost all of them appear to be anti-Obama demands for the inclusion of things that simply don't belong here. There. I've said it. -- Scjessey ( talk) 00:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Something has to give here. Andyvphil continues to make sweeping changes to the article without posting his proposed large revisions for discussion at the talkpage. There's nothing remotely resembling consensus here for such changes. I'm struggling to figure out why it's so difficult to simply write up what you want to see included (especially with such huge changes), let others discuss, tweak, and work with your proposed changes, and then, after building consensus, post the changes. Why is that so difficult to do? If he won't do it, then I may post the proposed changes here, to get a feel for whether or not there is actual consensus to make such changes to the article. Bellwether B C 15:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
What on earth does the start of this article mean?? Is it locked-in vandalism? Site Admins. please advise. 69.69.80.201 ( talk) 23:26, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
This is hugely relevant. The church that Obama has attended for 20 years, got married in, had his children baptised by, and is quoted as being a mentor to Obama....mysteriously nothing about Wright is in Obama's article. Is wikipedia deliberately leaving out Jeremiah Wright? This man is the subject of huge controversey, far and away noteworthy of inclusion being that he is Obama's pastor of 20 years and now officially part of his campaign. What is the justification for Wright's censorship in this article? I'm certain that as time goes on, the widespread press will compel wiki by force to mention him just to save face, but if we can be honest right now (before that happens), I think it would be prudent to make mention of this in the Obama article (not the campaign article) as his Pastor and his massive controversey is relevant to his personal life, hence, relevant to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.9.46 ( talk) 22:14, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
To compare the influence of Wright to a dentist or doctor is absurd. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe the title of his autobiography was inspired by his proctologist. Jeremiah Wright has been Obama's spiritual mentor for some 20 years now and Obama himself has indentified Wright as one of the people that has most shaped and determined his spiritual and moral outlook. Wright, of course, married Barack and Michelle and was the inspiration for tehn title of Obama's autobiography. In other words, in order to really know Barack Obama one has to know a little something about Jeremiah Wright and that's why a biographical sketch that barely mentions Jeremiah Wright is incomplete and even a little silly. Wright is essential in Obama's formation and that should be the primary criterion for inclusion. Given the close spiritual relationship the two have shared for some 20 years now, the fact that Wright has, over the years, engaged in Black Panther type, anti-American rhetoric is something that every biographical sketch should include. This is all part of the essential formation of Obama's character and worldview. The facts should be presented and readers should be left to judge for themselves how they feel about the whole thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:07, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, the difference is that in the case of his basketball coach, therapist etc., you are "presuming." There is no presumption required in the case of Wright. Obama himself has explicitly stated his admiration for Wright and he has emphasized the importance of their relationship and Wright's spiritual mentoring over the years. The title of his autobiography was inspired by one of Wright's sermons for God's sake! Whether its "disparaging" or not is not for you to decide and the fact that it may be perceived as disparaging is not a sufficient reason not to include these objective facts. Again, one cannot know Barack Obama without knowing a little something about Wright but this does not at all imply that Obama necessarily identifies with this Black Panther type rhetoric. In fact, the article should also include Obama's comments to the effect that he often disagrees with Wright's political views. Why don't you guys do a little less worrying about how things might, possibly be perceived and a little more straightforward reporting. Instead of avoiding controversies why don't you give an accurate and fair representation? You guys are way behind the curve on this one and you will have to, at some point, address this issue. Mark my words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 14:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether writes "His therapist, his high school basketball coach, and presumably many others have had as much or more influence on [Obama's] life and thinking as Wright." But the Wikipedia article on Obama's "personal manifesto for his 2008 campaign for the Presidency" notes "The title of 'The Audacity of Hope' was taken from a sermon written by Obama's religious and spiritual mentor, Jeremiah Wright." And, I would add, not merely his religious mentor. Despite being himself a skeptic Obama came to Chicago because he got a job fronting for some white guys, disciples of Saul Alinsky, who wanted to organize the local politics of Chicago's black churches. An obvious asset, Obama was recruited by a number of ministers, but chose about three years later to align himself with Jeremiah Wright's Trinity UCC. Jodi Kantor writes in the NY Times", "Still, Mr. Obama was entranced by Mr. Wright, whose sermons fused analysis of the Bible with outrage at what he saw as the racism of everything from daily life in Chicago to American foreign policy. Mr. Obama had never met a minister who made pilgrimages to Africa, welcomed women leaders and gay members and crooned Teddy Pendergrass rhythm and blues from the pulpit. Mr. Wright was making Trinity a social force, initiating day care, drug counseling, legal aid and tutoring. He was also interested in the world beyond his own; in 1984, he traveled to Cuba to teach Christians about the value of nonviolent protest and to Libya to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, along with the Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan..." [16] In other words, what attracted Obama to Trinity UCC was as much or more Wright's politics as any trancendental appeal. To pretend that Wright's politics are now irrelevant to Obama's biography is the determined blindness of someone who will not see what he doesn't want to see. Andyvphil ( talk) 15:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Then you are simply ignoring what Obama himself has stated repeatedly. If you want to know Obama you have to know a little bit about Pastor Wright and no amount of sophistry will change this fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 18:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
B C 20:39, 14 March 2008 (UTC) Bellweather, you accused a couple of us of "pontificating," (to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner) which is at least as much of an insult as "sophistry". It's probably worse. The only difference is that my description was accurate. Do you really think "sophistry" is an insult? My God you are a Democrat aren't you? Also, as I said before, there will come the day, sooner or later, when you will be forced to include a better explanation of Obama's link with Wright IN THIS ARTICLE. I do appreciate the fact that you at least offer a response. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 20:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I completely disagree with Bellwether's logic (who, btw, began the insults with using the accusation of pontificating). According to Bellwether, we should not include mention of Wright for the same reason that we wouldn't mention "His therapist, his high school basketball coach"....to me this is a grave fallacy. If we use that logic, then we shouldn't mention his wife, his children, or ANY significant individual that has an important and highly esteemed place in his life. How can anyone reasonably state that all the individuals in someone's life should be equivocated to the level of importance as a therapist? Obviously Obama himself has stated the significant influence and place Wright has had in his life. TO leave out this monumentous detail, or to relegate it to the equivalency of some passerby Obama once saw on a bus is a very poor approach to writing. If we are attempting a biography here, then any individual who has significantly shaped Obama (especially when Obama himself states it) is worth mentioning. And 20 years of influence, mentoring and spiritual shaping is something very much worth noting. Honestly, I smell a deliberate attempt to protect Obama here, at the expense of genuine neutrality. No matter how much any of us like a candidate, we must not attempt to censor relevant information. Wright's influence on Obama goes far beyond his campaign...20 years worth. Putting wright in the campaign article is irrelevant. Waiting for media coverage is irrelevant....Wright is a major influence on Obama. Period. This is from Obama himself. No matter what the media does or does not do with Wright, this is a very important component of Obama's life. Wright has such an influence on Obama, he wrote a book after one of his sermons, and in that book Wright is highly esteemed. Basketball coach? Cmon...seriously, are we taking wikipedia to the level of playing a charrade? I cannot believe, given the self-stated significance of Wright in Obama's life, that an editor would postulate that he is of equal weight as some long forgotten basketball coach. Really, such notions to me just waste space on this forum. Is that honestly the consensus here? That Wright's importance in Obama's life should be treated the same as a high school coach? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.9.46 ( talk) 04:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, whether or not it is "guilt by association" is irrelevant if, in fact, the relationship has been important to Obama's formation and development. We are not attempting to smear but you are deliberately omitting relevant and crucial biographical information. Obama himself has admitted on repeated occasions the importance of Wright's spiritual mentoring. Do you dispute Obama's own account? Why can't we just present the relevant facts; Obama's long time relationship with Wright and Wright's Church, the fact that Wright married Obama and his wife and baptized his children, the fact that his autobiography is titled after a sermon given by Wright and the fact that Obama has explicitly expressed the importance of his friendship with Pastor Wright? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 17:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Bellwether, learning about your best friend for most of your life would indeed tell us something about you. Presumably you guys/girls share many of the same (or at least some of the same) insights, personality traits, interests and hobbies. I'll bet the two of you view the world more similarly than you realize. The fact that your political views are opposed only proves that you cannot reduce a person to his politics. But I would certainly argue that a biographical sketch of your life should include some decription of the relationship with your best friend and that there is no way that this relationship has not changed and affected you even if you do not share the same political worldview. I'm sure you would identify this friend as being important in your life and for that reason alone this friend is worth talking a little bit about. Without a brief description of Obama's relationship with Wright, this article is incomplete. Also, the fact that Obama has begun distancing himself from Wright only relatively recently is indeed telling and indicates a closer political worldview in the past and that his present positions are being affected by his campaign (to a certain extent). These are all things that have to be included and that voters have the RIGHT to know. Deliberate obfuscation is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
[lengthy comment copied by author to "Jeremiah Wright" section, below] Jtextor ( talk) 15:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Isn't it? 8thstar 23:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
As 8thstar notes, the following was removed from this page by BellwetherBC with the AGF-impaired comment "rm-ed trolling":
Is it true that Obama's father and step father were muslims, or that he went to a predominantly muslim school? I mean, I read through the whole article but didn't find anything about this, kind of odd. 8thstar 15:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
There are a couple sentences on this in the Personal Life" section, though they're easy to miss. More detailed answers to your questions will be found...um, most of it's at [17]. Bits about his fathers can be dug out of the deleted (alleged "POV split") article now found at [18]. It's pretty clear that he did pray at the mosque with his stepfather, despite the denial on his campaign website, but it's also probable that he was the skeptic his mother raised him to be at least until he decided in his 20's that he could be both doubtful and Christian, if I remember his words in "Audacity of Hope" correctly. So there's no reason to think his contacts with and connections to the Muslim religion are very important biographically. Andyvphil ( talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Favors For (and From) A Shady Chicago Businessman Barack Obama has been friends with Antoin ("Tony") Rezko since at least 1990. Barack interviewed with Rezko for a job in the early 1990s (offered, but declined), and has raised at least $150,000 for Obama's campaigns. Prosecutors charge that at least $10,000 of the money Rezko gave Obama was extorted in return for political favors by a different politician. In return, Barack arranged an internship in 2005 for John Aramanda, the son of a Rezko business associate (Joseph Aramanda, who himself gave Barack $11,500.) There's more. In June, 2005, Obama bought a house in Chicago for $1.65 million ($300,000 below the asking price). The same day, Rezko bought (in his wife's name) the vacant lot next door for $625,000, the full price asked. Seven months later, Rezko sold Barack a slice (1/6th) of his lot so the Obamas could have a bigger yard. There's no evidence that Rezko bought the vacant land for any other reason than to do Obama a favor. The seller would only sell the house if he could sell the lot on the same day. And the lot is only accessible through Obama's yard. Rezko and his wife sold the lot last year to someone they owed money to, and let that person keep the small profit he made. Here's the real problem: among other problems, Rezko is on trial in a federal government corruption case for demanding kickbacks from companies wanting to do business with Illinois Governor Blagojevich, another politician that Rezko has befriended and donated to. (Rezko is also under indictment for shaking down a Hollywood producer for $1.5 million in campaign contributions for Blagojevich. The guy takes care of his political friends.) In fact, Joseph Aramanda is an un indicted co-conspirator in one of the kickback cases. Obama has admitted that the land deal was a mistake, and donated money donated directly by Rezko to charity. His story has changed, though. When the land deal was first reported, Obama said his only contact with Rezko was asking him if it was a good deal. In February 2008, though, one of Obama's staffers admitted that the candidate walked around the house and lot with Rezko. Rezko has said he bought the lot to help the Obamas expand their backyard.
No date, time, signature or IP address yet? Are you saying you want this in the article(and I think you are the same person that put in the Cocaine section)? This discussion page isn't a forum to present allegations about Obama or even a general discussion. JonErber ( talk) 16:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Similar description as above, new update. Still no dispute on talk about making these updates. -- HailFire ( talk) 22:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
This is a dup of the request made above - it was just moved here to attract more attention. 199.125.109.36 ( talk) 01:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
There is only one mention of Obama voting "present" in the Illinois State legislature(in reference to late term abortion votes). The truth is that Obama voted "present" 130 times in the State legislature, on a wide range of issues (not just abortion) and this is something that has to be included in that section of the article. The text, as it stands right now, gives the impression that Obama was criticized only for his present votes with regard to the abortion issue. It does not convey the extent to which he employed this option; an option that is often viewed as a resort for those wishing to "take politcal cover" and to avoid controversial votes which might be held against candidates in their political future. This is an important issue and an essential aspect of his tenure in the State legislature. It is also an essential piece of the Obama political picture as he tries to distinguish himself as the next potential leader of the free world. Can somebody please explain why so much of this information is omitted? This article from the MSNBC/NY Times site can be referenced: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335739/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 19:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Because it's not relevant? A present vote isn't a commitment either way, so maybe we should have a section about just how neutral that dastardly Obama is? 76.25.115.99 ( talk) 06:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
"A present vote isn't a commitment either way." Exactly, that's the whole point and it is, in fact, very relevant. The fact that he refused to take a stand no less than 130 times in the State legislature is something that should be included in the State Leg. section. Can anyone else provide a good reason why this important information is not included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk • contribs)
How many times did he take a stand in the same period? What issues didn't he take a stand on? Those to have direct bearing on whether it is important enough to include. Jons63 ( talk) 16:10, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Jons63 asked:"How many times did he take a stand in the same period? What issues didn't he take a stand on?"
Well, here is more specific information:
"For example, in 1997, Obama voted "present" on two bills (HB 382 and SB 230) that would have prohibited a procedure often referred to as partial birth abortion. He also voted "present" on SB 71, which lowered the first offense of carrying a concealed weapon from a felony to a misdemeanor and raised the penalty of subsequent offenses.
In 1999, Obama voted "present" on SB 759, a bill that required mandatory adult prosecution for firing a gun on or near school grounds. The bill passed the state Senate 52-1. Also in 1999, Obama voted "present" on HB 854 that protected the privacy of sex-abuse victims by allowing petitions to have the trial records sealed. He was the only member to not support the bill.
In 2001, Obama voted "present" on two parental notification abortion bills (HB 1900 and SB 562), and he voted "present" on a series of bills (SB 1093, 1094, 1095) that sought to protect a child if it survived a failed abortion. In his book, the "Audacity of Hope," on page 132, Obama explained his problems with the "born alive" bills, specifically arguing that they would overturn Roe v. Wade. But he failed to mention that he only felt strongly enough to vote "present" on the bills instead of "no."
And finally in 2001, Obama voted "present" on SB 609, a bill prohibiting strip clubs and other adult establishments from being within 1,000 feet of schools, churches, and daycares."-Wall Street Journal
"An examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way.
In more than 50 votes, he seemed to be acting in concert with other Democrats as part of a strategy.
For a juvenile-justice bill, lobbyists and fellow lawmakers say, a political calculus could have been behind Mr. Obama’s present vote. On other measures like the anti-abortion bills, which Republicans proposed, Mr. Obama voted present to help more vulnerable Democrats under pressure to cast “no” votes.
In other cases, Mr. Obama’s present votes stood out among widespread support as he tried to use them to register legal and other objections to parts of the bills.
In Illinois, political experts say voting present is a relatively common way for lawmakers to express disapproval of a measure. It can at times help avoid running the risks of voting no, they add.
“If you are worried about your next election, the present vote gives you political cover,” said Kent D. Redfield, a professor of political studies at the University of Illinois at Springfield. “This is an option that does not exist in every state and reflects Illinois political culture.”"-NY Times
"THE FACTS: Obama acknowledges that over nearly eight years in the Illinois Senate, he voted "present" 129 times. That was out of roughly 4,000 votes he cast, so those "presents" amounted to about one of every 31 votes in his legislative career." - http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/24/fact_check_obamas_present_votes/
Does anyone actually have a good reason why this information should not be included or are we going to simply engage in ad hominems and claim that anyone who could possibly think that the fact that he voted a neutral present 130 (or 129 as he claims) times in the State legislature should be included is an "anti-Obama crusader?" It is true that other Illinois State senators take advantage of this unique political option and there is no reason why that cannot be stated in the article as well. Furthermore, simply because other senators excercised the same option does not render it insignificant. This is the guy running for the highest leadership office in the world. I'm not saying that Obama's defense cannot be included in the article but to omit such a crucial aspect of his tenure in the State Leg. is inexcuable and calls into serious question the political biases and motives of wikipedia. The editors and administrators of this page have to step up and do a little work here as the information is relatively easy to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 14:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has a good answer, huh?
I copied my response from below:
K. Kellogg-Smith,
Thankyou for your reply and as I said there's no reason why you cannot include Obama's defense. Did you miss the part where I said his defense should be included? It should definitely be included. But why not include the facts as well as the defense? Simply because the Obama campaign has an official defense does not mean that the information should not be included or is not relevant. It is widely known, among Democrats and Republicans alike, that the "present" vote can be used as an option for politicians to "take political cover" as one commentator in the NY Times said. That is to say, the present vote is a convenient way for Illinois state politicians to avoid taking a stand on controversial votes that could potentially have political ramifications in the future. There are also other purposes served by this option, some of which you addressed. This information should also be included and it should be up to individuals to decide how they weigh this information. You don't have to do the work of Obama's campaign for him. Simply state the facts and both sides of this important and relevant issue and let individual users form their own opinions. Why ignore or obscure these undeniable facts? Introducing this information about his voting record does not introduce POV. It's simply a reporting of the facts. Fact: Obama voted present 129 times out of 4,00 votes. Fact: This accounts for 1/31 votes cast. Fact: Partial birth abortion and parental notification issues are not the only issues which votes present nor the only present votes for which he has been criticized, as the article implies now. Fact: Obama has been criticized by both Democrats and Republicans for voting present so many times. Fact: Obama and his campaign have a defense and a justification for these votes.
Why not include all of these facts in the State Leg. section? Its 1 out of 31 votes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 21:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, it's really not for you to decide what the critical percentage should be. Just include the facts and let his record speak for itself without ignoring and hiding those aspects of his record which make you and the other Obamaniacs that administer this article a little uncomfortable. 129 times is a 129 times. And 3%, in this case, is not insignificant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 05:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
-- HailFire ( talk) 07:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Yup. 3% is significant there as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Practical question: How is present different than 'no'? I thought in order to pass a bill needed a majority. "Present" and "no" do not add to the majority.
{{ editprotected}} Please add: sl:Barack Obama. -- AndrejJ ( talk) 13:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
When the article mentions his father's birth, it notes that he is of Luo ethnicity. I think it would be factually relevant to note, similarly, after mentioning his mother's birthplace that she is Caucasian or of white American ethnicity. I say this because his being mixed race seems a significant and interesting aspect of his early life and his background. It explains factually why the article refers to his "multiracial" heritage later. Admittedly, the article later backs into this fact by quoting him as comparing his mother's skin to milk, but that seems a back-door way to give a relevant fact. I raise this point with absolutely no hidden political agenda: I am not suggesting this go in as a way to make him look good or bad, instead I think it should go in because it is as relevant to who he is and to what he represents. 66.92.173.67 ( talk) 02:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone be willing to make a list of every bill Obama voted on, including how he voted? For me, personally, since Obama is a politician what he voted on and how he voted makes more of a difference than his personal history and aknowledged character traits, especially when it comes to deciding whether or not to vote for him as President. Thanks in advance to the person willing to take on the task.
PS: It doesn't look very good on the Obama campaign that they haven't created this list already. Are they attempting to ignore Obama's voting record? ~Alma Entity —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.151.116 ( talk) 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
68 wrote: for that reason alone this friend is worth talking a little bit about. So maybe this dispute comes down to how we define the meaning of the word little. For me, this version that made a brief appearance earlier today had at least some consensus building potential. I would also suggest we add text linking the term black church to help interested readers put that term in historical and cultural context. Can we establish an interim consensus for restoring that version while discussion about any necessary additions continues? We need to hear from editors on both side of this ongoing condense/expand debate. Any support? -- HailFire ( talk) 15:01, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
this version is not bad but it does not go quite far enough, IMO. There is far more to the relationship than that passage details. For example, they were close friends over a 20 year span, Wright baptized Obama and his children and married he and Michelle, Obama attended Church there regularly for some 14 years and Wright served (he just left this position a few days ago) with Obama's campaign ("African American Religious Leadership Committee"). Are we to believe that Obama was not regularly exposed to or familiar with Wright's inflammatory rhetoric? As someone said abov, those of us that attend Church regularly would have a hard time sitting through sermons we strongly disagree with and find offensive, week after week, year after year. This is not proof that Obama holds these views but it is "evidence" that would be admitted in a court of law. In any event, the facts should be included, in addition to Obama's recent denouncements and readers should be left to judge for themselves. The basic principle of this "guilt by association" factor is that though one is not responsible for the views of one's friends, we are responsible for how we react to the views of our friends and associates. Obama has certainly had many years of experience and friendship with Wright and thus he has had many opportunities to denounce Wright's extreme worldview and Wright's praise of Farakhan and others. The fact that he is only explicitly and publically doing so recently does raise questions. It's certainly possible to have friends and associates that one disagrees with but we are responsible for, at the very least, making our disagreements known and articulating the reasons for our disagreements. There is also a direct proportion between how evil and hateful the views expressed by others (especially friends) and how great is our responibility to speak out forecully against them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 17:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that wikipedia must speak out forcefully. I said that Barack Obama is responsible for the ways in which he reacted over the years to Wright's inflammatory and sometimes hate-filled and anti-American rhetoric. Some might say that his failure to speak out forcefully might imply some kind of tacit consent (this is of course speculation). In any event, Wikipedia IS responsible for reporting relevant facts and truths regardless of whether these facts or truths are controversial or uncomfortable for the Obama supporters that seem to control the content of this page. This article purports to be a biographical sketch and as such, should include the relevant details of Obama's longtime friendship and protege relationship with Wright. As it stands, the article is incomplete and misleading. It seems that the only "personal opinions that are relevant" are those of Obama's supporters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 20:04, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
How about this? Any better? -- HailFire ( talk) 21:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Every other politician who has a biography I've read here at Wikipedia has a "Criticism and controversy" section. Where is the "Criticism and controversy" section in this article? Barack Obama has been the subject of a lot of criticism, especially in the past seven days with the Tony Rezko trial and the Jeremiah Wright controversy, but you'd never know it from reading this article. Let's do our best to be NPOV here. Who would like to step forward and draft the new section? Kossack4Truth ( talk) 00:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Other than the first five years of their friendship, you make a lot of hot air but I'm not sure how much "there" is there for your claims." You're not sure indeed. Obama himself has repeatedly admitted to the fact that Wright was his close friend and spiritual mentor for some 20 years and that he brought him to the Christian faith. Obama attended sermons there for 14 years(!) and Wright even served in Obama's campaign. As I'm sure you know, there is no law that one has to be married or baptized in one's hometown parish and that's exactly why people usually choose to be married by priests/pastors that they have a personal relationship with. And Obama titled his autobiogrpahy after a sermon given by Pastor Wright... Yes they were, in point of fact, very close friends and Obama has stated as much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 04:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hailfire, to my mind that's a little better but there is still quite a bit missing and readers do not get an accurate sense of the depth of their relationship. I appreciate your efforts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 04:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys - be real clear here: there are people out there who believe that you can't criticize Obama AT ALL, and they are never going to change their minds. Arguing with them is pointless. For this reason, you make a relevant change like the new one to the presidential campaign section, and defend it with facts. As you can see, you get some idiot who wants to 'revert to the last version that made sense,' however facts have this way of asserting themselves, and you can pretty much rely on them, no matter how big a skeptic you are.
Obama is a disciple of Wright. <BLP slander violation reverted (strike 2)
72.0.180.2 (
talk) 19:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)>. The involvement of Wright in his campaign is relevant AND historical, and belongs in his record. To say that a man is not influenced by the opinions of his pastor of twenty years, who officiated his marriage and baptised his children, is ludicrous and the other campaigns are all over it. It isn't going away.(
talk)
12:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
72.0.180.2, what's your point? Simply reporting and including the FACTS is not advocacy. Willfully, ignoring pertinent, relevant facts is advocacy. If your only point is that the fact that Wright baptized Obama, married he and his wife and baptized both his children is only an accident of Wright's capacity to perform the various sacramental functions of a pastor, I'm afraid you're still missing the main idea. It was his friendship and personal relationship with Wright that brought him to the United Church of Christ to begin with. This is a particular kind of Church; a Church which incorporates afrocentricisn and black power politics with the teachings of Christianity. Of course, were Obama only interested in the teachings of Christianity per se he could have been baptized into one of the more mainstream Christian branches like Catholicism, Presbyterianism, Southern Baptism or whatever. But he didn't, he joined this particular kind of Christian Church and he did so precisely because of his relationship with Wright. That Wright has been a part of so many of Obama's fundamental life experiences (wedding, baptisms etc.) is something which has only deepened their personal bond. Are you denying that the 2 shared a close friendship over the years? Are you denying that Wright was Obama's most important spiritual and religious influence? Are you denying that Obama attended Church services at that Church for some 14 years? Are you denying that Obama titled his autobiography after a sermon by Wright? Are you denying that Wright served, until just a few days ago, in Obama's campaign? What exactly are you saying? Was Wright not an important influence in Obama's life? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.0.182 ( talk) 13:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
No, those were pretty much my points —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fovean Author ( talk • contribs) 15:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel BLP policy allows us to RV talk page statements that do not discuss, or barely discuss, the actual article and are "drive-by" posted by IP's who do not otherwise participate. Specifically I feel this is a form of advocacy, prohibited on talk pages. It also, sometimes, bumps up against BLP content policies. So, like good editors, I feel we should discuss this before i start unilaterally making edits. lol andy. 72.0.180.2 ( talk) 02:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC) also remember not to feed them people....
I have read they are going to show a common candidature, with Obama as President and Hillary as Vicepresident.-- Nopetro ( talk) 06:54, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Given all of the innuendo and discussion about Rezko and Obama in the media, I think we need to have a page somewhere (not on this page) that discusses this relationship in full so that we can link to it if people want the full information. I bring this up here so that those involved in the Obama articles can have some input. Also, the recent full interview he gave with the Chicago Tribune goes into great detail about what exactly happened and would be useful for anyone who wants to create a better description of the facts in wikipedia Link to story. Remember ( talk) 14:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Clearly this is a popular article at the moment. The normal procedure of making bold edits isn't going to work here because there is so much disagreement and controversy over every single edit. Please seek a broad consensus (from established editors) on this talk page for anything other than minor grammatical changes. -- Scjessey ( talk) 12:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
The article was long overdue an update on primary results etc, the article magically managed to avoids the fact that clinton had own anything lol. As for the stuff on his reverand, there has been discussion and the article provides a little snipet of info on the issue, it can be expanded latter but the bare bones of the story are down which is a good thing. Realist2 ( talk) 12:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Scjessey is engaging in mass unconsidered reverts with misleading edit summarys and falsely marking his reverts as minor. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. He's restoring outright errors (the mistitling of the pronunciation cite and the misattribution and misquotation of Soetoro-Ng spring to mind) and deleting "pro-Obama" material (the community-organizer and voter registration are obvious examples) that I'm sure he would be quite happy with if he actually looked at it, as well as the NPOV stuff he doesn't want to see. And he's violated 3RR. Time to ask admin help, I think. Andyvphil ( talk) 13:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC) Added another. Hes made 5 reverts. -- Realist2 ( talk) 14:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Although Scjessey describes me as a "moron" I will say, this is NOT the place to make accusations of sock puppetry!!!!!!!! Fovean Author, thing about what your saying when you make such accusations. If you have evidence to support your claims report it, but DONT bring it here. -- Realist2 ( talk) 20:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree about your content concerns but accusations of SP are a no no. -- Realist2 ( talk) 20:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Rev. Wright is more than just a campaign issue. He was a major influence and inspiritation in Obama's life and spiritual formation. Knowing about the longtime relationship with Wright is certainly more important than knowing that Barack likes chili and is a "pretty good poker player." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.114.140 ( talk) 16:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Agreed, we should also reinstate the removed information of their long standing friendship as well as the criticism obama recieved for not reacting strongly or swiftely. Realist2 ( talk) 16:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello all. I didn't see the plea to build consensus on "anything other than minor grammatical changes" before I expanded the Wright controversy section and added some brief mention of related criticisms. I apologize. Under normal circumstances, I'd probably never go to a talk page for fixing an obvious problem like an oddly misdirected section topic. Basically, the previous title for the section (and subsequent prose) read: "The media were criticized for not criticizing Obama, so then they criticized him". I thought it was prudent to clarify that the section is about Obama, not the Media.
I also added a few sourced paragraphs for a greater "criticism during presidential campaign" section about related scrutiny. Objections? Okiefromokla questions? 04:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
A member's of the antivirus avast company, create hoax trojan rogueiframe. this member with desired will destabilize the credibility of the official website of barack obama to the presidency of the USA. for that it took the code which has to find on the site and to declare like important Trojan. the inofancif code of this hoax :
document.write('<iframe src="page.html" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" hspace="0" vspace="0" frameborder="0" height="1" scrolling="no" width="1"></iframe>')
March 17 this imaginary Trojan is set up, it will take 24 hours for the company of avast to react and remove this false information this day.
link RoguIframe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.248.230.186 ( talk) 17:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I just think this section is urgently needed. In the Ron Paul article one of the largest sections was in reference to the "newsletter controversy" which supposedly wasn't directly an act of Ron Paul, but associated with him. The controversy about Obama attending a black nationalist church and his preachers radical speeches could not be more similar to the Ron Paul controversy even in fiction. Tthe Ron Paul section was up as fast as the news broke, where is the info here? The Black Value System (now removed from his churches website but available on the web archive): 1. Commitment to God 2. Commitment to the Black Community 3. Commitment to the Black Family 4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education 5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence 7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect 8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of ‘Middleclassness’ 9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community 10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions 11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System 12. Personal commitment to embaracement of the Black Value System.’ Essentially switch the word black with aryan and you get the picture. It's breaking in the mainstream already. Some links to his preachers speechers would be handy in the article. The other candidates pages seem to include a lot more criticism where as this looks almost as though its a baseball card talking about his vast achievements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.246.211.229 ( talk) 18:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I second that, a section on his chruch's controversy is greaty needed KingsOfHearts ( talk) 21:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
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