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Hiya Wikipedians! I'm a member of the Copy Editors Guild and I stalk a lot of random pages in Wiki. I am doing a copy edit run through this article and noticed that a lot of the content is unreliably sourced.
Here is some info about what makes a source reliable:
Two things I can tell you: 1) reliable sources don't have to be "archeological experts" and 2) they also can't be full of self-published, user-generated content, which is precisely what blogs are. Such sources can be sources on themselves, but not cited as reliable for actual content that is not verified by another, more reliable source. With respect to yes, there are self-published sources by experts who have already been published in peer review journals. Several of the sources I removed, such as the student blog, are not that.
Content removed due to all sources being blogs
1. === Bitumen as an insulator === A bitumen seal, being thermoplastic, would be extremely inconvenient for a galvanic cell, which would require frequent topping up of the electrolyte (if they were intended for extended use). [1] [2] [3]
Please do not add back this content until you have found reliable sources to back up the claims being made. Blogs are not reliable sources. Curdigirl ( talk) 19:15, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
2. === Battery hypothesis === The artifacts do not form a useful battery for several reasons: original research?
Also the jar was sealed with asphalt, making it enormously difficult to refill the liquid electrolyte. [5] The presumed “battery” also has no terminals. The iron rod projected outside of the asphalt plug, but the copper tube did not, making it impossible to connect wires to make a circuit. [6]
Wordpress is user generated content. It is not a reliable source.
@DougWeller. Thanks for chiming in. Bad Archeology is a private, user generated content website operated by two dudes. This would indicate to me that there is therefore, no editorial oversite for the website. Also, of course, I did note that blogs could be sources on themselves, so I acknowledge that what you say is true concerning "it's not always the case" that blogs are an unreliable source. In general, however, they are not reliable. Thanks for finding common ground! :) Also, yes, I checked out Skeptic and that source has much more stance as a reliable source than any of the ones that were removed. It has a shop, contact information, and further, "The Skeptics Society is a non-profit, member-supported 501(c)(3) organization whose mission is to promote science and reason." This is an organization with standing, making it much more reliable than a wordpress blog, a University students' blog, or a website/blog operated by two dudes. :) Definitely let's use the Skeptics Society website if it can support any claims in this article. Thanks for your collaboration toward improving the quality of this Wikipedia article.
Curdigirl ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC) Curdigirl ( talk) 19:40, 8 June 2019 (UTC) Curdigirl ( talk) 19:53, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help) MSU students cite the now offline SkepticWorld.com website article (
archived January 16, 2012) and offer their viewpoint.
Here's what the policy that you referred me to states:
Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, or user-generated sources, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. [8] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources. [10]
Based on what you are saying, Keith Fitzpatrick Matthews' page may indeed be acceptable. I'll check it out and I'm happy to add back content that is properly sourced. My main concern is promoting quality Wikipedia articles. I'll circle back once I've completed the related tasks. Curdigirl ( talk) 22:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
This University of Pennsylvania Press book [7] has an article in it [8] "Electricity Generation Or Magic? The Analysis Of An Unusual Group Of Finds From Mesopotamia"
"A review of the literature isolates twelve comparable finds from Parthian and Sassanian contexts to which a similar function has been occasionally ascribed. Four small unglazed earthenware jars sealed with bitumen were uncovered in 1930 by a University of Michigan excavation at the Seleucid trading post of Opis, on the Tigris. The vessels were about 15-20 cm high and of various shapes, two with handles. Three were found lying on their sides, each with up to four metal rods stuck in the ground around them. One of the rods with each find was iron; the rest were bronze, all about 20-25 cm long. Each toppled jar contained a bronze cylinder, just under 3 cm in diameter and 7.5 cm long, sealed at both ends. Tucked into these "containers" were compressed rolls of papyrus—presumably inscribed—in various stages of decomposition. The one jar still standing contained fragments of a glass bottle. The finds were dated to the late Sassanian period (5th-early 6th century AT).) by coins. The excavator gave no interpretation of the finds, merely emphasizing that they had been deposited irregularly around a (cult?) building and that they were not associated with a burial (Watermann 1931:60-62). At about the same time German archaeologists were carrying out excavations on the east bank of the Tigris at Ctesiphon (Fig. 2, plan). In the second season of excavation (1931/32), undertaken jointly by the Islamic Art Museum of the Staatliche Museum, Berlin, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, led by Ernst Ktlhnel (KQhnel 1932, 1933; see also Upton 1933), six sealed unglazcd earthenware jars were found, each containing little rolls of metal or metal nails (Fig. 2a-f):" - these were from late Sassanian layers.
"The artifact group which prompted this article (Fig. 1) was found three years later, in 1936, on the northern outskirts of Baghdad near Khuyut Rabbou’a, in a late Parthian layer (Damerji 1979). The vessel of unglazed earthenware, originally sealed, contained a copper cylinder closed at one end with a copper plate, and sealed at both ends with bitumen. Inserted into the copper cylinder was an iron spike held in place by the bitumen stopper. The thicker end of the heavily encrusted and corroded spike projected about a centimeter from the sealing. Traces of metal, presumed to be lead, were registered on the stopper. According to KOnig (1938:8-9; 1940:164-168), the cylinder consists of “fairly pure copper with traces of zinc, lead, and iron." An investigation of the spike was not carried out.
"A group working under Prof. W. Jansen (Oldenburg) independently came to similar conclusions (Jansen et al. 1985). The finds have only an apparent outward resemblance to a cell (or dry battery). Instead, they probably served for the performance of magical practices." This is followed by a discussion of magic at the time, including eg the role of nails.
"The group of objects found at Scleucia becomes more comprehensible. The content of the texts of papyrus, unfortunately no longer accessible to us, probably concerned foundation texts or protective spells. For magical protection they were put into sealed bronze rolls (as discussed below); for practical protection they were then deposited in earthenware jars. The finds were in each case 'nailed fast' with a set of iron and bronze rods. Given the circumstances of discovery it is reasonable to assume they were deposited around a cult building."
"We conclude that the earthenware jars found in Parthian and Sassanian contexts, sealed with bitumen and containing metal cases, occasionally associated with papyrus remains and metal rods, did noc represent any apparatus with a pracii cal use in the modem sense, e.g., the generation of electricity. Rather, they were, as Kuhnel (1932) described, containers fro “conjurations, blessings and the like, written perhaps 01 papyrus,” which had been deposited to exercise a protective defensive, or occasionally harmful magic spell."
Also see this [9] Doug Weller talk 15:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Surely more information is available about when it was discovered, at least the year? VQuakr ( talk) 18:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
[10] [11] [12] Doug Weller talk 11:59, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
The Baghdad Battery is the name given by some contemporary sources to a set of three artifacts which were found together: a ceramic pot, a tube of copper, and a rod of iron.etc. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 19:18, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
I have removed this recently added diagram because it appears to be an editor's own speculation, not based on any of the reliable sources proposing its purpose as a battery. The Keyser source, for instance, has a diagram of the proposed assembly which he got directly from Konig's paper. That diagram shows the end of the copper tube accessible through the bitumen. That, of course, makes much more sense than the diagram here which shows the copper entirely sealed in bitumen. Given that that feature has been raised here as evidence that the battery theory must be false, I think it's important not to give the impression that Konig and Keyser did not understand this issue. Clearly they did understand that access to the copper was essential to make their theory work. Spinning Spark 23:46, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Baghdad Battery article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 360 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hiya Wikipedians! I'm a member of the Copy Editors Guild and I stalk a lot of random pages in Wiki. I am doing a copy edit run through this article and noticed that a lot of the content is unreliably sourced.
Here is some info about what makes a source reliable:
Two things I can tell you: 1) reliable sources don't have to be "archeological experts" and 2) they also can't be full of self-published, user-generated content, which is precisely what blogs are. Such sources can be sources on themselves, but not cited as reliable for actual content that is not verified by another, more reliable source. With respect to yes, there are self-published sources by experts who have already been published in peer review journals. Several of the sources I removed, such as the student blog, are not that.
Content removed due to all sources being blogs
1. === Bitumen as an insulator === A bitumen seal, being thermoplastic, would be extremely inconvenient for a galvanic cell, which would require frequent topping up of the electrolyte (if they were intended for extended use). [1] [2] [3]
Please do not add back this content until you have found reliable sources to back up the claims being made. Blogs are not reliable sources. Curdigirl ( talk) 19:15, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
2. === Battery hypothesis === The artifacts do not form a useful battery for several reasons: original research?
Also the jar was sealed with asphalt, making it enormously difficult to refill the liquid electrolyte. [5] The presumed “battery” also has no terminals. The iron rod projected outside of the asphalt plug, but the copper tube did not, making it impossible to connect wires to make a circuit. [6]
Wordpress is user generated content. It is not a reliable source.
@DougWeller. Thanks for chiming in. Bad Archeology is a private, user generated content website operated by two dudes. This would indicate to me that there is therefore, no editorial oversite for the website. Also, of course, I did note that blogs could be sources on themselves, so I acknowledge that what you say is true concerning "it's not always the case" that blogs are an unreliable source. In general, however, they are not reliable. Thanks for finding common ground! :) Also, yes, I checked out Skeptic and that source has much more stance as a reliable source than any of the ones that were removed. It has a shop, contact information, and further, "The Skeptics Society is a non-profit, member-supported 501(c)(3) organization whose mission is to promote science and reason." This is an organization with standing, making it much more reliable than a wordpress blog, a University students' blog, or a website/blog operated by two dudes. :) Definitely let's use the Skeptics Society website if it can support any claims in this article. Thanks for your collaboration toward improving the quality of this Wikipedia article.
Curdigirl ( talk) 19:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC) Curdigirl ( talk) 19:40, 8 June 2019 (UTC) Curdigirl ( talk) 19:53, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help) MSU students cite the now offline SkepticWorld.com website article (
archived January 16, 2012) and offer their viewpoint.
Here's what the policy that you referred me to states:
Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published media, or user-generated sources, such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs (as distinguished from newsblogs, above), content farms, Internet forum postings, and social media postings, are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. [8] Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources. [10]
Based on what you are saying, Keith Fitzpatrick Matthews' page may indeed be acceptable. I'll check it out and I'm happy to add back content that is properly sourced. My main concern is promoting quality Wikipedia articles. I'll circle back once I've completed the related tasks. Curdigirl ( talk) 22:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
This University of Pennsylvania Press book [7] has an article in it [8] "Electricity Generation Or Magic? The Analysis Of An Unusual Group Of Finds From Mesopotamia"
"A review of the literature isolates twelve comparable finds from Parthian and Sassanian contexts to which a similar function has been occasionally ascribed. Four small unglazed earthenware jars sealed with bitumen were uncovered in 1930 by a University of Michigan excavation at the Seleucid trading post of Opis, on the Tigris. The vessels were about 15-20 cm high and of various shapes, two with handles. Three were found lying on their sides, each with up to four metal rods stuck in the ground around them. One of the rods with each find was iron; the rest were bronze, all about 20-25 cm long. Each toppled jar contained a bronze cylinder, just under 3 cm in diameter and 7.5 cm long, sealed at both ends. Tucked into these "containers" were compressed rolls of papyrus—presumably inscribed—in various stages of decomposition. The one jar still standing contained fragments of a glass bottle. The finds were dated to the late Sassanian period (5th-early 6th century AT).) by coins. The excavator gave no interpretation of the finds, merely emphasizing that they had been deposited irregularly around a (cult?) building and that they were not associated with a burial (Watermann 1931:60-62). At about the same time German archaeologists were carrying out excavations on the east bank of the Tigris at Ctesiphon (Fig. 2, plan). In the second season of excavation (1931/32), undertaken jointly by the Islamic Art Museum of the Staatliche Museum, Berlin, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, led by Ernst Ktlhnel (KQhnel 1932, 1933; see also Upton 1933), six sealed unglazcd earthenware jars were found, each containing little rolls of metal or metal nails (Fig. 2a-f):" - these were from late Sassanian layers.
"The artifact group which prompted this article (Fig. 1) was found three years later, in 1936, on the northern outskirts of Baghdad near Khuyut Rabbou’a, in a late Parthian layer (Damerji 1979). The vessel of unglazed earthenware, originally sealed, contained a copper cylinder closed at one end with a copper plate, and sealed at both ends with bitumen. Inserted into the copper cylinder was an iron spike held in place by the bitumen stopper. The thicker end of the heavily encrusted and corroded spike projected about a centimeter from the sealing. Traces of metal, presumed to be lead, were registered on the stopper. According to KOnig (1938:8-9; 1940:164-168), the cylinder consists of “fairly pure copper with traces of zinc, lead, and iron." An investigation of the spike was not carried out.
"A group working under Prof. W. Jansen (Oldenburg) independently came to similar conclusions (Jansen et al. 1985). The finds have only an apparent outward resemblance to a cell (or dry battery). Instead, they probably served for the performance of magical practices." This is followed by a discussion of magic at the time, including eg the role of nails.
"The group of objects found at Scleucia becomes more comprehensible. The content of the texts of papyrus, unfortunately no longer accessible to us, probably concerned foundation texts or protective spells. For magical protection they were put into sealed bronze rolls (as discussed below); for practical protection they were then deposited in earthenware jars. The finds were in each case 'nailed fast' with a set of iron and bronze rods. Given the circumstances of discovery it is reasonable to assume they were deposited around a cult building."
"We conclude that the earthenware jars found in Parthian and Sassanian contexts, sealed with bitumen and containing metal cases, occasionally associated with papyrus remains and metal rods, did noc represent any apparatus with a pracii cal use in the modem sense, e.g., the generation of electricity. Rather, they were, as Kuhnel (1932) described, containers fro “conjurations, blessings and the like, written perhaps 01 papyrus,” which had been deposited to exercise a protective defensive, or occasionally harmful magic spell."
Also see this [9] Doug Weller talk 15:18, 22 August 2020 (UTC)
Surely more information is available about when it was discovered, at least the year? VQuakr ( talk) 18:06, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
[10] [11] [12] Doug Weller talk 11:59, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
The Baghdad Battery is the name given by some contemporary sources to a set of three artifacts which were found together: a ceramic pot, a tube of copper, and a rod of iron.etc. - LuckyLouie ( talk) 19:18, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
I have removed this recently added diagram because it appears to be an editor's own speculation, not based on any of the reliable sources proposing its purpose as a battery. The Keyser source, for instance, has a diagram of the proposed assembly which he got directly from Konig's paper. That diagram shows the end of the copper tube accessible through the bitumen. That, of course, makes much more sense than the diagram here which shows the copper entirely sealed in bitumen. Given that that feature has been raised here as evidence that the battery theory must be false, I think it's important not to give the impression that Konig and Keyser did not understand this issue. Clearly they did understand that access to the copper was essential to make their theory work. Spinning Spark 23:46, 7 January 2022 (UTC)