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This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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N Królikowska-Jedlinska - Slaves and Slave Agency in the …, 2020 - books.google.com Pages 355-369
Bookku (
talk) 12:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Childhood in the Late Ottoman Empire and After, 2016 - library.oapen.org
Prof Dr Stephan Conermann , Dr. Gül Şen Published Online:May 2020https://doi.org/10.14220/9783737010375
Tracy, James D.. Balkan Wars: Habsburg Croatia, Ottoman Bosnia, and Venetian Dalmatia, 1499–1617. United States, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2016.
Bookku ( talk) 12:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 09:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 11:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 07:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 11:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 07:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 12:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
References
@ GPinkerton:
Hello once again, I am looking for some help in article expansion support.
Please do have a look at the newly initiated article Draft:Avret Pazary about historical plight of women slaves.
Please do join in article expansion if the topic interests you. You can try / bring in different sources, besides following source too is still to be adequately tapped
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku ( talk) 05:42, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I think the title should be in english, otherwise the article cannot be easily found with search.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
@ User:Skylax30 Thanks for your contribution to the article. As far as article title is concerned while I do acknowledge English Wikipedia tradition on an average is to translate article title where possible in to English language. But I am not sure about grammar part of it, Whether Avret Esir Pazarları would constitute as proper name / proper noun and whether proper nouns can be translated.
The second part is there is not much concern in translating words Esir Pazarları to Slave Bazar or market, but word 'avret' constitutes some unfortunate religio cultural baggage enforced by pre 20th century Muslim world on largely non Muslim slave women. Though largely denigrated and even not original to Non Muslim female slaves but word Avret brings a baggage of an (unfortunate) identity. Actually I had started an article Aurat on English Wikipedia and that unfortunately got deleted but would have helped understanding cultural nuances still there is one Draft:Aurats (word) in development stage and besides may be this research paper on Muslim world concept of Umm walad will give an idea about Muslim world's sexual politics involved behind word Avret, and I am alone can not be sure of such a change. Particularly Muslim women are largely absent from Wikipedia world and story of deletion of article Aurat shows once one lets it go that wiki community does not easily restores. Any ways here my purpose is just to explain little nuances but I am not too insistent about retaining the title as is.
Thanks Bookku ( talk) 10:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
@ User:Skylax30 As you said if reflections in traditional folk songs is available then that will be significant.
I will check if Wikipedia already has any article on Arab Spain slave trade if not, the I will write a draft.
Many thanks for your contribution to the article specially about Greek sources and reflection. Bookku ( talk) 03:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
You might want to add in the article a section with traditional folk songs mentioning slavery, even if the subject of the article is the slave market. It shows how some women started (and how some didn't) their route to the slave markets.
The oldest collection of Greek folk songs was that by Claude Fauriel, compiled and published in 1824-25, during the Greek Revolution. In this collection there are some songs mentioning Greeks slaves of the Turks, or the possibility of one becoming a slave and fighting to avoid it. These songs refer to pre-revolution events, mainly the wars of Souli against Ali Pasha of Jannina and Albanian Muslims. Despo, the wife of Souliote chieftain Tzavellas, is one of the heroines of the songs, committing a honor suicide with other women before they all get captives and slaves. In: C. Fauriel, Chants populaires de la Grèce modern, vol. 1, pp 302, “Guerres de Soulotes, 8”, (in greek), p. 303 (French translation). “you are slave of the Pasha, captive(*) of the Albanians” [(*)“captive” is not a literal translation here. The Gr. σκλάβα means “slave (woman)”. “Albanians” means the Muslim Albanians]. See also Souliotic songs.
On the same song and the theme of women’s suicide in order to avoid slavery: Ewa Róża Janion, “„ŻONA CAWELI MĘŻNIE GRODU BRONI...” [Τzavellas’ wife is fighing …”, in VADE NOBISCUM, MATERIAŁY STUDENCKIEGO KOŁA NAUKOWEGO HISTORYKÓW UNIWERSYTETU ŁÓDZKIEGO VOL. X, UNIVERSITY OF LODZ, Poland, ŁÓDŹ 2014, pp. 47-54.
Machine translation Polish to English, with some corrections: p. 49, top. <It's men’s traditional duty to protect women and kill the enemy, but when they fail and the fight is lost, women are forced to do everything possible to make the differences between the two hostile groups. […] Thus, only taking a fight is going beyond the traditional female role. Also here the Greek and Philhellelic repertoire presents 2 types of heroines. The first is suicide fighting, Despo [Tzavellas’ wife], who defends the fortress with her daughters. When further defense stood impossible, Despo set fire to the gunpowder storage: as a result both defenders and aggressors were killed by the explosion.[6] The transgression of gender boundaries is here neutralized by the heroine's death. As with Polish women knights, famous from the works of Adam Mickiewicz: Emilia Plater, Grażyna, Żywila, which die after the takeover male role [7].> [footnote 6 refers to the song of Despo Tzavellas]
On the same song, English publication, partial preview: Constantinides, Elizabeth. "Andreiomeni: The Female Warrior in Greek Folk Songs." Journal of Modern Greek Studies, vol. 1 no. 1, 1983, p. 63-72. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/mgs.2010.0076. On the honor suicide of Despo: “O come, my children, come with me, We shall not live as slaves of Turks." She touched the powder with the torch — Engulfing flames consumed them all.”
Another song, about two Greek boys, slaves of a Turkish woman, who is asking them to convert to Islam, in: Fauriel vol.2, (1825), p. (pdf) 70 (in Greek), and p. 71 in French “Les deux esclaves …”
Α folk song about a man slave, in [ https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/09/85/37/00001/greekfolksongsfr00garn.pdf Greek folk-songs, by Garnett, Lucy M.J. London, 1885, p. 206 (pdf 244)], in English translation. In the same, p. 219, men and women taken slaves to Yannina (the headquarters of Ali Pasha before 1822) and Tepeleni (in Albania). Originally published by Passow. Page 243 (pdf 281). A young man says farewell to his mother, going to be a “Klepht” (irregular fighter), not wanting “to Turks enslaved”. There are more folk songs in other collections, but I think these are OK for the moment. -- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Skylax30 @Aciram @Immanuelle requesting your inputs for change in title according to the coverage of the article.
Some suggestions:
Please remember some other WP article already covers Elite--women slavery in Ottoman Empire and this article focuses on the status and marketing of Non-elite-commoner-women-slave in Ottoman Empire.
Bookku (
talk) 06:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Some of this article's
listed sources may not be
reliable. |
According to Avarogullari Ayten and Muhammet, slavery in Turkish and Islamic history is mostly omitted or condoned in Turkish school textbooks. citation needed Contents in the history and social studies school textbooks in Turkey contain substantial non inclusion and misrepresentations related to pre modern slavery in Turkey and Islam. citation needed
Avarogullaris see some patterns in the way slavery is dealt with in Turkish school textbooks. First, slavery as an issue that occurred mainly in the West; While institutionalized western slavery are rightly criticized in Turkish textbook. But avoids any mention of the existence of slaves in the Islamic world and how Muslims got their own slaves, especially in the Ottoman past of Turks and their actual treatment on the ground. Such omission creates the impression that there was no slavery in the Turkish past, or slaves in Turkish history were very happy. citation needed
Turkish textbooks cherry-pick while depicting wherever and whenever Turks were taken into slavery but go silent on their own Turkish past which was proactively participated in enslavement and trade of slaves. citation needed
While Turkish textbooks take note of role of European Human Rights Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights in abolishing slavery but miss on human elements that strived for the goal, which happened to be some proactive westerners. citation needed
Turkish textbooks create perception that only African black people were enslaved but factually largest number of slaves traded and used in premodern Turkey were Russians than Africans since Ottomans had frequent wars with Russians were taken as war prisoners where as they had to pay to buy African slaves from traders still prices for White slaves were more and Women slaves were more than male slaves, male slaves were most frequently castrated. citation needed
While Turkish text books talk of human rights, depict enslavement as inhuman but only western slavery is singled out for the purpose in a negative role. Avarogullaris say that treatment of past slavery in Turkish textbooks produces falsely prejudiced generations which end up believing that slavery was only a western phenomena unaware of phenomena of slavery in Turkish and Islamic past. According to Avarogullaris instead of hiding Turkish and Islamic past of human slavery, Turkish textbooks should have helped pupil face it and help them understand how slavery in Turkey was abolished peacefully. citation needed
Avarogullaris say that Turkish authors of textbooks probably too focused on social and national identity creation, perceive factual knowledge of historical facts as threat, which might have led them to omit or distort the Turkish and Islamic past with regard to slavery, instead providing inaccurate and incomplete information. citation needed Avarogullaris say that one of the reasons for teaching history is to develop students to be active citizens of pluralistic and democratic societies, and they are expected to respond with appropriate moral dimension historical events hence omission of facts about contemporary and historical slavery from Turkish school curriculum is cause of concern. citation needed
While textbooks are quick in criticizing the west for it's part in slavery but fail to give due credit to western societies for their initiative in the abolition of slavery. Actual fact that it was proactive British diplomatic pressure in nineteenth century and Ottoman rulers need to maintain its positive image lead to eventual gradual abolishing of slavery from Ottoman Empire by end of nineteenth century. citation needed
Even after several measures to ban slavery in the late 19th century, the practice continued largely unabated into the early 20th century. As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire. [1] Sexual slavery was a central part of the Ottoman slave system throughout the history of the institution. [2] [3]
Turkish textbooks paint an incorrect picture that it was Islam that banned slavery. Factually, Islam never banned slavery but rather permitted the continued capturing and trading of slaves, albeit with some encouragement for better treatment to slaves and encouragement to manumission; however, but that does not amount to complete abolition of slavery, but Turkish textbooks tell the students otherwise. citation needed
According to IMO (International Migration Office), 2005, Turkey, Trafficking &Trends, IOM Publication, Turkey continues to be one of the largest markets in the trafficking of women from neighboring former Soviet states who have been forced into prostitution. 2004 profits from the illegal sex trade in Turkey were estimated to the tune of $3.6 billion. Approximately 5,000 women, large percentage from Moldova and Ukraine, were believed to be working as sex slaves in Turkey. The prostitution networks make about $150 per customer, with each woman serving up to 15 clients a day. [4] [5]
References
Schierbrand1886
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).@ Ipigott
You seem to have removed todo template. I just moved Talk:Avret Esir Pazarları/to do from Draft talk namespace. May be you can consider including that back if you find okay enough. Thanks for your support. Bookku ( talk) 12:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Ipigott
In dif 1137252572 Though your c/e change ".. selling a slave woman to another man for sex was permissible .." not incorrect in 'what it means' as such but sounds too direct compared to the source. Then kind of buyer preferences for female slaves there in those times no doubt indicate the way you have written. IMO there are eulogizing historiographers might contest such direct inference. The source author in the reference used here is referring to blurred lines. So may be a visit to original source will help in our consideration.
Actually I wanted to add relevant quotes in all refs before bringing to main space some how some other user got impatient and submitted to AFC yesterday.
Bookku ( talk) 05:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 05:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The ref for discussion reference [1]
References
.. Female slaves .. were legally vulnerable to involuntary sexual use. .. Their second disadvantage as sexual beings were uniquely theirs .. from moment of capture were legally subject to the disposition of male captors... (p.p.197-198)..female slaves were personal property of their master's. Unlike males, however, every female slave of whatever age or provenance by whatever label, was also her master's sexual property. Women had no right of refusal or appeal with regard to their sexuality, although the law forbade owners to use women for outright prostitution. The notional, if not the legal, line between prostitution and the selling of female slave to another male, who might sale her to yet another was whisper thin. ..p205
Hi @ Ost316: How goes it. You have changed the name of this Avret Pazarları, which is "private markets" when it used to be Avret Esir Pazarları, meaning Awret Captive Markets or the private markets in the Awret quarter of instanbul. It seems a bit odd? scope_creep Talk 07:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Collapsing non-crucial part for discussion in hand
|
---|
|
Bookku ( talk) 09:09, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Bookku: I fixed ref 15 as it had a works error on it. Is that same as ref 16 with the same chapter? They look almost identical. I plan to update ref 56 which looks a bit knackered. scope_creep Talk 10:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
Though article is reasonably researched with academic WP:RS - still considerable update was remaining; as of the day, I suppose, most users and copy editors (including those with Turkey or middle eastern background) are unlikely to have in-depth context of "Non-elite-female-slavery in Ottoman times", which is main focus of this article topic, and also most users and copy editors do not open referred literature. Hence being significant contributor to the article, I am aware many sentences need to be updated or provided with specific quotes along with page numbers to avoid doubts. So I am not surprised some sentences have been tagged. Since I bit busy in real life, it will take some weeks to fulfill/ address tag requests, and I plan to address them one by one at a time. Bookku ( talk) 11:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Guild of Copy Editors | ||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
N Królikowska-Jedlinska - Slaves and Slave Agency in the …, 2020 - books.google.com Pages 355-369
Bookku (
talk) 12:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
Childhood in the Late Ottoman Empire and After, 2016 - library.oapen.org
Prof Dr Stephan Conermann , Dr. Gül Şen Published Online:May 2020https://doi.org/10.14220/9783737010375
Tracy, James D.. Balkan Wars: Habsburg Croatia, Ottoman Bosnia, and Venetian Dalmatia, 1499–1617. United States, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2016.
Bookku ( talk) 12:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 09:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 11:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 07:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 11:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 07:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 12:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
References
@ GPinkerton:
Hello once again, I am looking for some help in article expansion support.
Please do have a look at the newly initiated article Draft:Avret Pazary about historical plight of women slaves.
Please do join in article expansion if the topic interests you. You can try / bring in different sources, besides following source too is still to be adequately tapped
Thanks and warm regards
Bookku ( talk) 05:42, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I think the title should be in english, otherwise the article cannot be easily found with search.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
@ User:Skylax30 Thanks for your contribution to the article. As far as article title is concerned while I do acknowledge English Wikipedia tradition on an average is to translate article title where possible in to English language. But I am not sure about grammar part of it, Whether Avret Esir Pazarları would constitute as proper name / proper noun and whether proper nouns can be translated.
The second part is there is not much concern in translating words Esir Pazarları to Slave Bazar or market, but word 'avret' constitutes some unfortunate religio cultural baggage enforced by pre 20th century Muslim world on largely non Muslim slave women. Though largely denigrated and even not original to Non Muslim female slaves but word Avret brings a baggage of an (unfortunate) identity. Actually I had started an article Aurat on English Wikipedia and that unfortunately got deleted but would have helped understanding cultural nuances still there is one Draft:Aurats (word) in development stage and besides may be this research paper on Muslim world concept of Umm walad will give an idea about Muslim world's sexual politics involved behind word Avret, and I am alone can not be sure of such a change. Particularly Muslim women are largely absent from Wikipedia world and story of deletion of article Aurat shows once one lets it go that wiki community does not easily restores. Any ways here my purpose is just to explain little nuances but I am not too insistent about retaining the title as is.
Thanks Bookku ( talk) 10:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
@ User:Skylax30 As you said if reflections in traditional folk songs is available then that will be significant.
I will check if Wikipedia already has any article on Arab Spain slave trade if not, the I will write a draft.
Many thanks for your contribution to the article specially about Greek sources and reflection. Bookku ( talk) 03:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
You might want to add in the article a section with traditional folk songs mentioning slavery, even if the subject of the article is the slave market. It shows how some women started (and how some didn't) their route to the slave markets.
The oldest collection of Greek folk songs was that by Claude Fauriel, compiled and published in 1824-25, during the Greek Revolution. In this collection there are some songs mentioning Greeks slaves of the Turks, or the possibility of one becoming a slave and fighting to avoid it. These songs refer to pre-revolution events, mainly the wars of Souli against Ali Pasha of Jannina and Albanian Muslims. Despo, the wife of Souliote chieftain Tzavellas, is one of the heroines of the songs, committing a honor suicide with other women before they all get captives and slaves. In: C. Fauriel, Chants populaires de la Grèce modern, vol. 1, pp 302, “Guerres de Soulotes, 8”, (in greek), p. 303 (French translation). “you are slave of the Pasha, captive(*) of the Albanians” [(*)“captive” is not a literal translation here. The Gr. σκλάβα means “slave (woman)”. “Albanians” means the Muslim Albanians]. See also Souliotic songs.
On the same song and the theme of women’s suicide in order to avoid slavery: Ewa Róża Janion, “„ŻONA CAWELI MĘŻNIE GRODU BRONI...” [Τzavellas’ wife is fighing …”, in VADE NOBISCUM, MATERIAŁY STUDENCKIEGO KOŁA NAUKOWEGO HISTORYKÓW UNIWERSYTETU ŁÓDZKIEGO VOL. X, UNIVERSITY OF LODZ, Poland, ŁÓDŹ 2014, pp. 47-54.
Machine translation Polish to English, with some corrections: p. 49, top. <It's men’s traditional duty to protect women and kill the enemy, but when they fail and the fight is lost, women are forced to do everything possible to make the differences between the two hostile groups. […] Thus, only taking a fight is going beyond the traditional female role. Also here the Greek and Philhellelic repertoire presents 2 types of heroines. The first is suicide fighting, Despo [Tzavellas’ wife], who defends the fortress with her daughters. When further defense stood impossible, Despo set fire to the gunpowder storage: as a result both defenders and aggressors were killed by the explosion.[6] The transgression of gender boundaries is here neutralized by the heroine's death. As with Polish women knights, famous from the works of Adam Mickiewicz: Emilia Plater, Grażyna, Żywila, which die after the takeover male role [7].> [footnote 6 refers to the song of Despo Tzavellas]
On the same song, English publication, partial preview: Constantinides, Elizabeth. "Andreiomeni: The Female Warrior in Greek Folk Songs." Journal of Modern Greek Studies, vol. 1 no. 1, 1983, p. 63-72. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/mgs.2010.0076. On the honor suicide of Despo: “O come, my children, come with me, We shall not live as slaves of Turks." She touched the powder with the torch — Engulfing flames consumed them all.”
Another song, about two Greek boys, slaves of a Turkish woman, who is asking them to convert to Islam, in: Fauriel vol.2, (1825), p. (pdf) 70 (in Greek), and p. 71 in French “Les deux esclaves …”
Α folk song about a man slave, in [ https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/09/85/37/00001/greekfolksongsfr00garn.pdf Greek folk-songs, by Garnett, Lucy M.J. London, 1885, p. 206 (pdf 244)], in English translation. In the same, p. 219, men and women taken slaves to Yannina (the headquarters of Ali Pasha before 1822) and Tepeleni (in Albania). Originally published by Passow. Page 243 (pdf 281). A young man says farewell to his mother, going to be a “Klepht” (irregular fighter), not wanting “to Turks enslaved”. There are more folk songs in other collections, but I think these are OK for the moment. -- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Skylax30 @Aciram @Immanuelle requesting your inputs for change in title according to the coverage of the article.
Some suggestions:
Please remember some other WP article already covers Elite--women slavery in Ottoman Empire and this article focuses on the status and marketing of Non-elite-commoner-women-slave in Ottoman Empire.
Bookku (
talk) 06:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Some of this article's
listed sources may not be
reliable. |
According to Avarogullari Ayten and Muhammet, slavery in Turkish and Islamic history is mostly omitted or condoned in Turkish school textbooks. citation needed Contents in the history and social studies school textbooks in Turkey contain substantial non inclusion and misrepresentations related to pre modern slavery in Turkey and Islam. citation needed
Avarogullaris see some patterns in the way slavery is dealt with in Turkish school textbooks. First, slavery as an issue that occurred mainly in the West; While institutionalized western slavery are rightly criticized in Turkish textbook. But avoids any mention of the existence of slaves in the Islamic world and how Muslims got their own slaves, especially in the Ottoman past of Turks and their actual treatment on the ground. Such omission creates the impression that there was no slavery in the Turkish past, or slaves in Turkish history were very happy. citation needed
Turkish textbooks cherry-pick while depicting wherever and whenever Turks were taken into slavery but go silent on their own Turkish past which was proactively participated in enslavement and trade of slaves. citation needed
While Turkish textbooks take note of role of European Human Rights Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights in abolishing slavery but miss on human elements that strived for the goal, which happened to be some proactive westerners. citation needed
Turkish textbooks create perception that only African black people were enslaved but factually largest number of slaves traded and used in premodern Turkey were Russians than Africans since Ottomans had frequent wars with Russians were taken as war prisoners where as they had to pay to buy African slaves from traders still prices for White slaves were more and Women slaves were more than male slaves, male slaves were most frequently castrated. citation needed
While Turkish text books talk of human rights, depict enslavement as inhuman but only western slavery is singled out for the purpose in a negative role. Avarogullaris say that treatment of past slavery in Turkish textbooks produces falsely prejudiced generations which end up believing that slavery was only a western phenomena unaware of phenomena of slavery in Turkish and Islamic past. According to Avarogullaris instead of hiding Turkish and Islamic past of human slavery, Turkish textbooks should have helped pupil face it and help them understand how slavery in Turkey was abolished peacefully. citation needed
Avarogullaris say that Turkish authors of textbooks probably too focused on social and national identity creation, perceive factual knowledge of historical facts as threat, which might have led them to omit or distort the Turkish and Islamic past with regard to slavery, instead providing inaccurate and incomplete information. citation needed Avarogullaris say that one of the reasons for teaching history is to develop students to be active citizens of pluralistic and democratic societies, and they are expected to respond with appropriate moral dimension historical events hence omission of facts about contemporary and historical slavery from Turkish school curriculum is cause of concern. citation needed
While textbooks are quick in criticizing the west for it's part in slavery but fail to give due credit to western societies for their initiative in the abolition of slavery. Actual fact that it was proactive British diplomatic pressure in nineteenth century and Ottoman rulers need to maintain its positive image lead to eventual gradual abolishing of slavery from Ottoman Empire by end of nineteenth century. citation needed
Even after several measures to ban slavery in the late 19th century, the practice continued largely unabated into the early 20th century. As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire. [1] Sexual slavery was a central part of the Ottoman slave system throughout the history of the institution. [2] [3]
Turkish textbooks paint an incorrect picture that it was Islam that banned slavery. Factually, Islam never banned slavery but rather permitted the continued capturing and trading of slaves, albeit with some encouragement for better treatment to slaves and encouragement to manumission; however, but that does not amount to complete abolition of slavery, but Turkish textbooks tell the students otherwise. citation needed
According to IMO (International Migration Office), 2005, Turkey, Trafficking &Trends, IOM Publication, Turkey continues to be one of the largest markets in the trafficking of women from neighboring former Soviet states who have been forced into prostitution. 2004 profits from the illegal sex trade in Turkey were estimated to the tune of $3.6 billion. Approximately 5,000 women, large percentage from Moldova and Ukraine, were believed to be working as sex slaves in Turkey. The prostitution networks make about $150 per customer, with each woman serving up to 15 clients a day. [4] [5]
References
Schierbrand1886
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).@ Ipigott
You seem to have removed todo template. I just moved Talk:Avret Esir Pazarları/to do from Draft talk namespace. May be you can consider including that back if you find okay enough. Thanks for your support. Bookku ( talk) 12:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Ipigott
In dif 1137252572 Though your c/e change ".. selling a slave woman to another man for sex was permissible .." not incorrect in 'what it means' as such but sounds too direct compared to the source. Then kind of buyer preferences for female slaves there in those times no doubt indicate the way you have written. IMO there are eulogizing historiographers might contest such direct inference. The source author in the reference used here is referring to blurred lines. So may be a visit to original source will help in our consideration.
Actually I wanted to add relevant quotes in all refs before bringing to main space some how some other user got impatient and submitted to AFC yesterday.
Bookku ( talk) 05:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
Bookku ( talk) 05:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
The ref for discussion reference [1]
References
.. Female slaves .. were legally vulnerable to involuntary sexual use. .. Their second disadvantage as sexual beings were uniquely theirs .. from moment of capture were legally subject to the disposition of male captors... (p.p.197-198)..female slaves were personal property of their master's. Unlike males, however, every female slave of whatever age or provenance by whatever label, was also her master's sexual property. Women had no right of refusal or appeal with regard to their sexuality, although the law forbade owners to use women for outright prostitution. The notional, if not the legal, line between prostitution and the selling of female slave to another male, who might sale her to yet another was whisper thin. ..p205
Hi @ Ost316: How goes it. You have changed the name of this Avret Pazarları, which is "private markets" when it used to be Avret Esir Pazarları, meaning Awret Captive Markets or the private markets in the Awret quarter of instanbul. It seems a bit odd? scope_creep Talk 07:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
Collapsing non-crucial part for discussion in hand
|
---|
|
Bookku ( talk) 09:09, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Bookku: I fixed ref 15 as it had a works error on it. Is that same as ref 16 with the same chapter? They look almost identical. I plan to update ref 56 which looks a bit knackered. scope_creep Talk 10:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
Though article is reasonably researched with academic WP:RS - still considerable update was remaining; as of the day, I suppose, most users and copy editors (including those with Turkey or middle eastern background) are unlikely to have in-depth context of "Non-elite-female-slavery in Ottoman times", which is main focus of this article topic, and also most users and copy editors do not open referred literature. Hence being significant contributor to the article, I am aware many sentences need to be updated or provided with specific quotes along with page numbers to avoid doubts. So I am not surprised some sentences have been tagged. Since I bit busy in real life, it will take some weeks to fulfill/ address tag requests, and I plan to address them one by one at a time. Bookku ( talk) 11:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)