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Attack on Mers-el-Kébir article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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@ Mathglot: Quite so, there was narrative in the article but it was not citable when the article got a spring clean. Thanks for the reminder. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 07:04, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I've revised the sections you mention, does it look better now? Keith-264 ( talk) 15:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
The main result of the attack was the Vichy regime supported Germany during the occupation, French citizens were encouraged to collaborate, recruitment for the Free France movement plummeted, and French forces in North Africa and Syria increased their opposition to British and Free French forces. All of this is detailed in numerous sources such as this one: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/09/22/why-did-the-royal-navy-sink-the-french-fleet-in-world-war-ii/ ( Gndk1111 ( talk) 15:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC))
Biography can be a bit one-eyed, it isn't prudent to rely on them without looking at other RS. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Wiki is biased in favour of secondary sources Wikipedia:Reliable sources, preferably printed [1]. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 19:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
That is massive OR, Much of the Vichy regime was antisemitic anyway. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Calling the result a British victory is misleading. The raid was unnecessary and encouraged France to collaborate with Germany. The French would have scuttled their fleet, as they did in November 1942. Most importantly of all the British failed to disable half of the French capital ships. ( Gndk1111 ( talk) 12:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC))
England's Last War Against France: Fighting Vichy 1940–42 (2010) by Colin Smith worth a look. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 17:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Banging on about this instead of producing sources which contradict those that the result is based on is futile. Arguing can't change this, facts from RS can. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
It is not for you to dictate a deadline for a unilateral edit (unless you want to be reverted). Keith-264 ( talk) 12:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Quoting the
Template documentation so that what it says about the contents of the Result parameter appears somewhere on this talkpage (note that the parameter contents "should reflect what the sources say"):
← ZScarpia 11:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
It's written in the first para that five British aircrafts were destroyed but in the table, it's 6. Any ideas? ShauryaOMG ( talk) 06:29, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@ DesertPipeline: I reverted your edits because they weren't helpful to an article in BritEng but I'm happy to discuss them here if your wish. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:39, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
@ DesertPipeline: Sorry about that, some editors of this article aren't as reasonable. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 16:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
Wasn't an attack on a neutral country regarded as a war crime? ( FrancoisDeEstay ( talk) 17:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC))
What do the RS say? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 09:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Has many of the source are British , I genuinely ask the question ? -Did the attack was a victory, it's ambiguous . More importantly it misleads people on the significance , it's not really a remake of Trafalgar - Did the french planned to surrender their fleet to the Germans ? It's perhaps the worst defeat of French , the battle for the internet .
Some misleading media * try to enforce the idea the French fleet was destroyed by Churchill because they goeing to surrender their fleet . We must debunk this fake news .
It's perhaps the worst defeat of French , the battle for the internet . We need more french source and more french oriented views for balence the article . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Do you accept foreign source ?
Why have you delated by add ?
I usued many internal link , from wipidia themself
"" The ship managed to escape the harbor during the British attack on Mers-el-Kébir on 3 July and briefly engaged the destroyer HMS Wrestler, together with her sister Lynx. "" /info/en/?search=French_destroyer_Tigre
What do you need more ...a copy of the Book ? why have you delated my add , you could you send me a PM . Thank — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Obiously Jean Lassaque , les Contre-torpilleurs de 2400 tonnes , l'armistice et l'Attaque de mers el Khébir , P70 -71
What do you need more from a frenchman ?
I could provide an English source : French Destroyers: Torpilleurs d'Escadre & Contre-Torpilleurs 1922 - 1956" by John Jordan and Jean Moulin
As a French i could have some little problem whive grammar and everything .
( Source is another problem )
Could you correct me
The retreat to Toulon and the future of french fleet .
Battleship Strasbourg and several destroyers ( Volta , Le Terrible ,Lynx and Tigre) forced the blocus and retreated back to Toulon , them they were assigned to various french force who remained in Toulon or the colonial empire .
During the retreat the Lynx and the Tigre engage briefly the HMS Wrestler and later the Lynx spoted a torpedos from a swordwish , saving the Battleship from a certain damage .
The most notable fleet in Toulon was the Forces de haute mer which includes the battleship Strasbourg and the destroyers Volta .
Interesting point , so the article is wrong , because Strasbourg wasn't alone , she escaped whive fives destroyers who gave her escort and briefly engaged british force .
That " succesful retreat " is a french success ! We must talk about !
I'm ready to bring you all the source i have , in French and in English .
Do you want to work whive for improve that point ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 17:32, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I folow the article for years ( i'm aware ) The success of the French retreat is a point i want to improve .
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 17:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this article aren't yours .
The french succefully saved one battleship and fives destroyers , one Battleship was sank , two were crippled and one destroyer was grounded . That's a success and we must talk about .... I'm still ready to gave you all the source you need to enforce that point — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I fear i need to be more clear , i want to enforce the action of Strassbourg and the folowing destroyers , particulary Tigre an Lynx . That's exactly what i think i have does .
I'm ready to help . I got many source in both French and English language
Is it maybe possible to add a Non-British source ... in this article 🤔
-A French point of view who ballence the "British victory " The Attack is far from a total sucess ,Provence take the sea fews months later and only Bretagne was definitevely lost , Dunkerque was crippled after a second attack ( who cost three hundred lives ) and returned to Toulon ..despite british effort .
Strasbourg ....retreated back to France ...
I think people coul be lured
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB00:BF8:9800:64BA:7378:F0C2:31D ( talk) 06:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Is it a legitimate battle ? Did Britain declared war on Vichy ? 2A01:CB00:BF8:9800:C8E3:472E:71C3:BE77 ( talk) 13:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I reviewed the table and noted it was in disfavour of the French .
-1 ) In the table , it's say a tugboat was sank , is this really relevant ? -2 ) In the table , it's say the french seaplane tender was damaged . Yes that's true ..i checked on wikipedia "She was lightly damaged by shell splinters during the British attack on Mers-el-Kébir on 3 July 1940, but suffered no casualties. "
/info/en/?search=French_seaplane_carrier_Commandant_Teste
Is this really relevant ? Crazy defender 2 ( talk) 19:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Mdnavman: Good stuff but do we need that many citations? Keith-264 ( talk) 15:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Dear watchlisters, As a Frenchperson, I am appalled by the pov-pushing towards embellishing Vichy France by a lot of French in this talk page, but my question is other : I'm curious to know why Operation Catapult possesses its own article in nine languages but does not exist in WP:en, given that it's a British war operation ? (No idea myself) Alexandre Hocquet ( talk) 19:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
If an EngWiki article doesn't overlap this one too much, have a go. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 20:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Why not rename the last paragrath ? Crazy defender 2 ( talk) 01:23, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Seahawk-2023: Greetings, I reverted quite a few of your wikilinks because they were duplicates. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 18:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Swapped online citations with Rohwer and Hümmelchen (2005) Keith-264 ( talk) 15:55, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
The article says Operation Lever took place 8 July but French battleship Dunkerque says it was 6 July. Housecarl ( talk) 02:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
"The orders to the four French submarines were quickly decoded and London ordered Somerville to act; the boats were unable to close with Force H" is used verbatim two times in a short distance. is this intended or a copy mistake ? 46.15.45.246 ( talk) 16:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Attack on Mers-el-Kébir article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on 10 dates. show |
@ Mathglot: Quite so, there was narrative in the article but it was not citable when the article got a spring clean. Thanks for the reminder. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 07:04, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
I've revised the sections you mention, does it look better now? Keith-264 ( talk) 15:20, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
The main result of the attack was the Vichy regime supported Germany during the occupation, French citizens were encouraged to collaborate, recruitment for the Free France movement plummeted, and French forces in North Africa and Syria increased their opposition to British and Free French forces. All of this is detailed in numerous sources such as this one: https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/09/22/why-did-the-royal-navy-sink-the-french-fleet-in-world-war-ii/ ( Gndk1111 ( talk) 15:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC))
Biography can be a bit one-eyed, it isn't prudent to rely on them without looking at other RS. Keith-264 ( talk) 18:28, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Wiki is biased in favour of secondary sources Wikipedia:Reliable sources, preferably printed [1]. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 19:04, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
That is massive OR, Much of the Vichy regime was antisemitic anyway. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:30, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Calling the result a British victory is misleading. The raid was unnecessary and encouraged France to collaborate with Germany. The French would have scuttled their fleet, as they did in November 1942. Most importantly of all the British failed to disable half of the French capital ships. ( Gndk1111 ( talk) 12:24, 20 December 2020 (UTC))
England's Last War Against France: Fighting Vichy 1940–42 (2010) by Colin Smith worth a look. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 17:19, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
Banging on about this instead of producing sources which contradict those that the result is based on is futile. Arguing can't change this, facts from RS can. Keith-264 ( talk) 13:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
It is not for you to dictate a deadline for a unilateral edit (unless you want to be reverted). Keith-264 ( talk) 12:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Quoting the
Template documentation so that what it says about the contents of the Result parameter appears somewhere on this talkpage (note that the parameter contents "should reflect what the sources say"):
← ZScarpia 11:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
It's written in the first para that five British aircrafts were destroyed but in the table, it's 6. Any ideas? ShauryaOMG ( talk) 06:29, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
@ DesertPipeline: I reverted your edits because they weren't helpful to an article in BritEng but I'm happy to discuss them here if your wish. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 10:39, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
@ DesertPipeline: Sorry about that, some editors of this article aren't as reasonable. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 16:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
Wasn't an attack on a neutral country regarded as a war crime? ( FrancoisDeEstay ( talk) 17:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC))
What do the RS say? Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 09:10, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
Has many of the source are British , I genuinely ask the question ? -Did the attack was a victory, it's ambiguous . More importantly it misleads people on the significance , it's not really a remake of Trafalgar - Did the french planned to surrender their fleet to the Germans ? It's perhaps the worst defeat of French , the battle for the internet .
Some misleading media * try to enforce the idea the French fleet was destroyed by Churchill because they goeing to surrender their fleet . We must debunk this fake news .
It's perhaps the worst defeat of French , the battle for the internet . We need more french source and more french oriented views for balence the article . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Do you accept foreign source ?
Why have you delated by add ?
I usued many internal link , from wipidia themself
"" The ship managed to escape the harbor during the British attack on Mers-el-Kébir on 3 July and briefly engaged the destroyer HMS Wrestler, together with her sister Lynx. "" /info/en/?search=French_destroyer_Tigre
What do you need more ...a copy of the Book ? why have you delated my add , you could you send me a PM . Thank — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Obiously Jean Lassaque , les Contre-torpilleurs de 2400 tonnes , l'armistice et l'Attaque de mers el Khébir , P70 -71
What do you need more from a frenchman ?
I could provide an English source : French Destroyers: Torpilleurs d'Escadre & Contre-Torpilleurs 1922 - 1956" by John Jordan and Jean Moulin
As a French i could have some little problem whive grammar and everything .
( Source is another problem )
Could you correct me
The retreat to Toulon and the future of french fleet .
Battleship Strasbourg and several destroyers ( Volta , Le Terrible ,Lynx and Tigre) forced the blocus and retreated back to Toulon , them they were assigned to various french force who remained in Toulon or the colonial empire .
During the retreat the Lynx and the Tigre engage briefly the HMS Wrestler and later the Lynx spoted a torpedos from a swordwish , saving the Battleship from a certain damage .
The most notable fleet in Toulon was the Forces de haute mer which includes the battleship Strasbourg and the destroyers Volta .
Interesting point , so the article is wrong , because Strasbourg wasn't alone , she escaped whive fives destroyers who gave her escort and briefly engaged british force .
That " succesful retreat " is a french success ! We must talk about !
I'm ready to bring you all the source i have , in French and in English .
Do you want to work whive for improve that point ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 17:32, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I folow the article for years ( i'm aware ) The success of the French retreat is a point i want to improve .
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 17:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm sorry but this article aren't yours .
The french succefully saved one battleship and fives destroyers , one Battleship was sank , two were crippled and one destroyer was grounded . That's a success and we must talk about .... I'm still ready to gave you all the source you need to enforce that point — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crazy defender 2 ( talk • contribs) 18:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
I fear i need to be more clear , i want to enforce the action of Strassbourg and the folowing destroyers , particulary Tigre an Lynx . That's exactly what i think i have does .
I'm ready to help . I got many source in both French and English language
Is it maybe possible to add a Non-British source ... in this article 🤔
-A French point of view who ballence the "British victory " The Attack is far from a total sucess ,Provence take the sea fews months later and only Bretagne was definitevely lost , Dunkerque was crippled after a second attack ( who cost three hundred lives ) and returned to Toulon ..despite british effort .
Strasbourg ....retreated back to France ...
I think people coul be lured
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB00:BF8:9800:64BA:7378:F0C2:31D ( talk) 06:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Is it a legitimate battle ? Did Britain declared war on Vichy ? 2A01:CB00:BF8:9800:C8E3:472E:71C3:BE77 ( talk) 13:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
I reviewed the table and noted it was in disfavour of the French .
-1 ) In the table , it's say a tugboat was sank , is this really relevant ? -2 ) In the table , it's say the french seaplane tender was damaged . Yes that's true ..i checked on wikipedia "She was lightly damaged by shell splinters during the British attack on Mers-el-Kébir on 3 July 1940, but suffered no casualties. "
/info/en/?search=French_seaplane_carrier_Commandant_Teste
Is this really relevant ? Crazy defender 2 ( talk) 19:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Mdnavman: Good stuff but do we need that many citations? Keith-264 ( talk) 15:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Dear watchlisters, As a Frenchperson, I am appalled by the pov-pushing towards embellishing Vichy France by a lot of French in this talk page, but my question is other : I'm curious to know why Operation Catapult possesses its own article in nine languages but does not exist in WP:en, given that it's a British war operation ? (No idea myself) Alexandre Hocquet ( talk) 19:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
If an EngWiki article doesn't overlap this one too much, have a go. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 20:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Why not rename the last paragrath ? Crazy defender 2 ( talk) 01:23, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
@ Seahawk-2023: Greetings, I reverted quite a few of your wikilinks because they were duplicates. Regards Keith-264 ( talk) 18:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Swapped online citations with Rohwer and Hümmelchen (2005) Keith-264 ( talk) 15:55, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
The article says Operation Lever took place 8 July but French battleship Dunkerque says it was 6 July. Housecarl ( talk) 02:58, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
"The orders to the four French submarines were quickly decoded and London ordered Somerville to act; the boats were unable to close with Force H" is used verbatim two times in a short distance. is this intended or a copy mistake ? 46.15.45.246 ( talk) 16:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)