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(a) Why 'subcultures'? (b)I assume we are speaking of (i)Ashkenazi (ii)Sephardi (iii)Mizrahi? if so, the problem is that often (ii) and (iii) are used interchangeably when ethnic denominators. Cf.
'There are two main Jewish ethnic groups:Ashkenazi and Sephardi; Ashkenazim are Jews of European origin; Sephardim, also known as Mizrahim ("Oriental" Jews=, have North African and Middle Eastern roots.'Marina Niznick, in Eliezer Ben Rafael,Yosef Gorni,Yaacov Ro'i (EDS.) Contemporary Jewries: Convergence and Divergence, BRILL 2003 p.240
I guess this can't be considered a sub-culture, however I wanted to share my 23&me genetic results with you-all. I am identified as a sub-group of haplogroup K. "Haplogroup: K, a subgroup of R - Age: 35,000 years - Region: Near East, Europe, Central Asia, Northern Africa - Example Populations: Ashkenazi, Druze, Kurds Highlight: One branch of haplogroup K ties about 1.7 Ashkenazi Jews living today to a single maternal ancestor." It also says: "K branched off haplogroup U8 about 35,000 years ago. It continues to have a strong presence in the region today, reaching levels of 20% among Druze Muslims and about 10% among Kurds, Palestinians and Yemenites. It is also found among the Gurage of Ethiopia, who are thought to be descended from Arabian invaders." It seems to show that Ashkenazi Jews are really local with Druze and Kurds, no? Ridingdog ( talk) 19:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
@Ridingdog, The maternal and paternal haplogroups make up a fraction of ones ancestry, the real info is in the Autosomal DNA, for example, my maternal haplorgroup is K1a9, most agree it has a Middle Eastern source (though some claim a Western European one), but my Autosomal DNA shows that I'm more of a "native" European than I am a "native" Middle Easterner, and I form a cluster not with Druze and Kurds but with Italians and Greeks, and on the world map, I'm not in the Middle East but in Europe, the Italian peninsula specifically. The average "Native" European ancestry among individual Ashkenazis ranges between 35-55%, I score 45-52%, about 30-38% of my ancestry is "native" Middle Eastern and the rest seems to be Anatolian/Southwest Caucasian. 84.108.30.185 ( talk) 09:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Nishidani I completely agree, in the end of the day humans are 99.9% identical genetically and we all share a common ancestry in east Africa about 50,000 years ago, the 1-100% that you get from autosomal tests represent about 0.010-0.015% of the Human DNA, every individual identifies himself in his own way, and genetics obviously can't make someone identify in this way or that way, and yes it's true that DNA tests are in their infancy, I just replied to a person who used genetics to make his statement. It's very unfortunate that politics have managed to make their way into subjects that are none of their concern, and I've stated time and time again that genetics should be secondary and that one person cannot speak in the name of everyone. 84.108.30.185 ( talk) 13:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Nishidani and Debresser, the genetics came up because Ridingdog said that his maternal haplogroup was common among Druze and Kurds and he was an Ashkenazi Jew therefore "It seems to show that Ashkenazi Jews are really local with Druze and Kurds, no?" To which the IP editor replied that haplogroups make up a fraction of ones ancestry and that most of the ancestry is found in the Autosomes and that Ashkenazis individually can come out more Middle Eastern or more European. Guy355 ( talk) 13:05, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree, genetics are very unreliable and can often lead to contradictions. Guy355 ( talk) 10:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The Genealogical Science: The Search for Jewish Origins and the Politics of Epistemology (Chicago Studies in Practices of Meaning). [1].
Looks like it is directly relevant. Dougweller ( talk) 06:10, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to invite editors to express their opinions about Talk:Czechs#Bohemian Jews and Czech Jews.-- Der Golem ( talk) 09:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Bohemians and Czechs of the Jewish faith? That's what comes to mind when I think about Bohemian and Czech Jews, kinda like Bohemian and Czech Catholics or Protestants I reckon.
Guy355 (
talk)
13:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
What do you want from me Debresser? I can't get what into my head? Guy355 ( talk) 10:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Care to be more polite mate? I don't even know you. Guy355 ( talk) 10:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that in the related ethnic groups section we replace in the "Other Europeans" which links to "ethnic groups in Europe" simply to "Europe" just like the "other Levantines" simply links to "the Levant", is it perhaps possible to include both "Europe" and "ethnic groups in Europe"? If there's any opposition please reply to this section, I know that such subjects are like explosive barrels and that specifically in this article one needs a consensus on just about everything. :-P If there will be no opposition until Sunday then I guess it'll be fine? Guy355 ( talk) 10:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
There's no
Ethnic groups in the Levant? That's a shame. Well okay, I won't touch it.
Guy355 (
talk)
13:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a head's up, I posted a request for assistance at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Genetics#Ashkenazi Jews for help determining how much weight to give the variety of genetic studies included, hopefully with the result that this section is reduced in size but, at the same time, reflect whatever scientific consensus exists at this time. I'm not sure of the response this request will receive but I think this article could use the expertise from some editors who have more knowledge and experience editing in this area. Liz Read! Talk! 13:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree, this article would only benefit from editors who actually have experience on the subject of genetics who would be able to make some order from the mess and bias that found it's way into this article via biased inexperienced editors, I hope those experienced editors would agree to help, that's their choice, but I'm sure their work would be only beneficial and greatly appreciated. Guy355 ( talk) 17:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The link at Reference 101 is dead. If it's intended to be to the article mentioned in 100, http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/ works. Mcljlm ( talk) 08:17, 14 June 2014 (UTC) 14 June 2014
True, every year a new study turns up that contradicts or confirms several previous studies, this science is still in it's infancy and shouldn't be taken as fact. Guy355 ( talk) 10:32, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Why is he included? he specifically said he did not want to be included in racial lists.
"He routinely refused to be included in lists or books that classified people by race. He asked to not be included in Tina Levitan's The Laureates: Jewish Winners of the Nobel Prize, writing, "To select, for approbation the peculiar elements that come from some supposedly Jewish heredity is to open the door to all kinds of nonsense on racial theory" and adding "...at thirteen I was not only converted to other religious views, but I also stopped believing that the Jewish people are in any way 'the chosen people'""
/info/en/?search=Richard_Feynman#Education — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bumblebritches57 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.
Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??
Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 ( talk)
File:Anne Frank.jpg is non-free and has been identified as possibly not being in compliance with the non-free content policy. For specific information on the problems with the file and how they can be fixed, please check the message at File:Anne Frank.jpg. For further questions and comments, please use the non-free content review page. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 09:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Quite the contrary, according to Jewish law, a person with a Jewish mother will always be Jewish, even if he becomes the pope. Guy355 ( talk) 17:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, pardon me, I was wrong, I suppose such a subject would never be a simple issue. Guy355 ( talk) 19:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
True, but Jews are also an ethnicity, they're an ethnoreligious group, and Ashkenazi Jews are a Jewish ethnic division. Just like the Druze are a religion and an ethnicity (the difference is that while Judaism is open for people who truly wish to become Jewish and convert, the Druze religion is completely exclusive to those born into it, but, you get my point.) Guy355 ( talk) 18:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes my point sound Christianity also a religion of some Ashkenazi Jews. so it's possible to add here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians??
Also Heinrich Heine and Karl Marx. Guy355 ( talk) 19:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I reckon it would be accurate, if there's a consensus then go ahead, although I think you should wait for at least 24 hours to see if anyone opposes that.
Guy355 (
talk)
19:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The article is about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, for the article about Jews by the religious law go to the article on Who is a Jew. Converted to Christianity or no is irrelevant to your ethnicity and your origins, so even if Mahler converted he is still an Ashkenazi Jew by ethnicity. By the way, by the Jewish law conversions out of Judaism don't mean anything. Also, those conversions can't really be taken seriously. Many who converted were simply atheists (not true Christians) who simply didn't want anti-Semitism to block their way in society. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 23:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
My point if you want to consider Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, then you should add in Religion Christianity too, Becouse some we added here pictures of at least 4 Jewish who convert to Christianity, If we consdier Ashkenazi Jews as a religious group, Then you should remove Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner and Heinrich Heine, they convert to Christianity and they didn't practced Judaism anymore. But Ashkenazi Jews are both rigth? If we added some secular, irreligious, What the problem to add christians? Christians Ashkenazi Jews they are not small group. Many of the notable Ashkenazi Jews were Christians as Max Born, Fritz Haber, Gerty Cori, George de Hevesy, Dennis Gabor, Leopold Kronecker, Felix Mendelssohn, Gustav Mahler, John von Neumann, Lise Meitner, Heinrich Heine, Bob Dylan, Israel Zolli, Harry Frederick Oppenheimer, Jean-Marie Lustiger and others so we are not talk about small and not visible group, These figures consider important and respocted among Jewish. Besides there are two movements of Jews (mostly Ashkenazi Jews) with large numbers and they are Jewish who converts to Christianity and still identify themselves as Jews and still maintain their Jewish traditions, thes are: Hebrew Catholics and Messianic Judaism.
What i want to say is since Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, as you said and some Jewish (not rare and not small numbers) convert to Christianity why I can't add Christianity it's truth some are Chrsitians : {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians.??
I'm not saying to add this and making a paragraph about it and i don't think it's irrelevant, it's only small word adding this here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians. as i explaind befor the Majority of Ashkenazi Jews practice Judaism but also some are secular, irreligious, and some are Christians (in the USA alone there are 1.6 millions).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 ( talk) 00:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It would seem that the practical rule is "a Christian who was once a Jew or (some of) whose ancestors happened to be Jews will be counted as a Jew if he or she is famous for a good thing". Feketekave ( talk) 16:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I hope the reason that it happens is because Jews are an ethnicity and Ashkenazi Jews are a Jewish ethnic division and not because of the reason you mentioned, if it's the latter, then... :-\ Guy355 ( talk) 16:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"The authors also report on Eu 19 (R1a) chromosomes, which are very frequent in Central and Eastern Europeans (54%–60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. They hypothesized that the differences among Ashkenazim Jews could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. A later 2005 study by Nebel et al., found a similar level of 11.5% of male Ashkenazim belonging to R1a1a (M17+), the dominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in Central and Eastern Europeans."
This all refers to R1a which not only is frequent in Eastern Europe, but also in India and Mideast. Jews mostly belong to the Mideastern subgroups of R1a and not to the Eastern European subgroups. So please, someone could add this important information or even delete these misleading sentences. Similar problem with R1b and in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews Robertius ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.
Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??
Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
In the intro, ""The Jews of Germany"), are a Jewish ethnic division originating in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East who coalesced in the Holy Roman Empire around the turn of the first millennium"
Then in the body, "The origins of the Ashkenazim are obscure,[39] and many theories have arisen speculating about their ultimate provenance.[40] The most well supported theory is the one that details a Jewish migration through what is now Italy and other parts of southern Europe."
Which is it? There is no concrete evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Semitic Israelite tribes from the Middle East, so why is the article claiming such a thing? ScienceApe ( talk) 21:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The Germans were not the only group invited into the empires and kingdoms that controlled territories in Central Europe. The Jews were an important second group. There were two distinct groups of Jews with two separate geographic patterns of migration throughout Europe: Ashkenazim and Sephardim. In 1900 of the approximately 10 million Jews worldwide, over 70 percent were Ashkenazim residing in Central Europe. In general the Ashkenazim originally came out of the Holy Roman Empire, speaking a version of German that incorporates Hebrew and Slavic words, Yiddish. Encouraged to move out of the Holy Roman Empire as persecution of their communities intensified during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Ashkenazim community increasingly gravitated toward Poland. After Poland joined with Lithuania to move the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Jews moved into the eastern reaches of the Commonwealth, particularly in the regions known as Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine. With the collapse of the Polish—Lithuania Commonwealth and the division of Poland in the eighteenth century (Prussia, Austria, and Russia basically carving up Poland that had de facto become a Russian dependency between 1772 and 1795), most of the Ashkenazim ended up residing in areas controlled by Russia. This area eventually became known as the Pale of Settlement or Pale.
— Mosk, Carl (2013). Nationalism and economic development in modern Eurasia. New York: Routledge. p. 143. ISBN 9780415605182.
The disputed sentence was removed from the article a while ago after fierce discussion. Recently, it was restored in this edit. I have no problem with undoing that edit. Debresser ( talk) 17:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Besides studies on the Ashkenazi Autosomal DNA (the Autosomes represent ones overall ancestry, the maternal/paternal lineages represent only a fraction of ones ancestry) show that Ashkenazi Jews plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, next to Sicilians and Maltese, in the gap between Cypriots (who probably best represent pre Islamic Levantines) and Greeks, there also seems to have been geneflow from Greeks to AJs, there's a genetic relation there, perhaps due to admixture as far away as the late bronze age, and as recently as the Hellenistic/Roman periods. Here's the link for the latest study which shows the plots [2] Guy355 ( talk) 06:49, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The problem with keeping the two statements together is that it violates WP:SYNTHESIS. If source "A" claims "X" and source "B" claims "Y", you cannot use both sources to make a claim "Z". In this case, you need a source that mentions that they're both Middle eastern in origin and that they coalesced in the Roman Empire. No exceptions. Khazar ( talk) 18:11, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
"The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora... Today, Jews belong to several communities that can be classified according to the location where each community developed. Among others, these include the Middle Eastern communities of former Babylonia and Palestine, the Jewish communities of North Africa and the Mediterranean Basin, and Ashkenazi communities of central and eastern Europe" -- Monochrome_ Monitor 16:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC) [3]
Although the copious number of genetic studies on Ashkenazim — researching both their paternal and maternal lineages — all point to ancient Levantine origins, the studies have arrived at diverging conclusions regarding both the degree and the sources of their non-Levantine admixture.[23] These diverging conclusions focus particularly in respect to the extent of the predominant non-Levantine genetic origin observed in Ashkenazi maternal lineages, which is in contrast to the predominant Levantine genetic origin observed in Ashkenazi paternal lineages. ....with a detailed paragraph like this, why is there an urge to mention this once before, and in less than six words? I'm glad I can help. Best regards, Khazar ( talk) 03:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Monitor, the thing about your quote is that it's about the Ashkenazi paternal lineage, paternal/maternal lineages make up a fraction of ones ancestry, the overall information for ones ancestry is in the Autosomes, and according to the links Guy355 provided, Ashkenazis are roughly as European as Sicilians and Maltese, in the gap between Europe and the near east. Your link looked at the Y chromosome, which indeed most AJs belong to paternal lineages with a near eastern source, but doesn't represent their overall ancestry. BTW, the term "Semitic" is quite irrelevant, there are Semitic languages, but there's no Semitic ethnicity just like there's no Japthetic ethnicity or Hamitic ethnicity, I believe the term you're looking for is west Asian, near eastern, Levantine etc etc. 86.169.239.107 ( talk) 15:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Ashkenazi Jews has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Sergio DellaPergola
should be
Sergio Della Pergola
source: "Sergio Della Pergola" on Wikipedia MEdictate ( talk) 15:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
(a) Why 'subcultures'? (b)I assume we are speaking of (i)Ashkenazi (ii)Sephardi (iii)Mizrahi? if so, the problem is that often (ii) and (iii) are used interchangeably when ethnic denominators. Cf.
'There are two main Jewish ethnic groups:Ashkenazi and Sephardi; Ashkenazim are Jews of European origin; Sephardim, also known as Mizrahim ("Oriental" Jews=, have North African and Middle Eastern roots.'Marina Niznick, in Eliezer Ben Rafael,Yosef Gorni,Yaacov Ro'i (EDS.) Contemporary Jewries: Convergence and Divergence, BRILL 2003 p.240
I guess this can't be considered a sub-culture, however I wanted to share my 23&me genetic results with you-all. I am identified as a sub-group of haplogroup K. "Haplogroup: K, a subgroup of R - Age: 35,000 years - Region: Near East, Europe, Central Asia, Northern Africa - Example Populations: Ashkenazi, Druze, Kurds Highlight: One branch of haplogroup K ties about 1.7 Ashkenazi Jews living today to a single maternal ancestor." It also says: "K branched off haplogroup U8 about 35,000 years ago. It continues to have a strong presence in the region today, reaching levels of 20% among Druze Muslims and about 10% among Kurds, Palestinians and Yemenites. It is also found among the Gurage of Ethiopia, who are thought to be descended from Arabian invaders." It seems to show that Ashkenazi Jews are really local with Druze and Kurds, no? Ridingdog ( talk) 19:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
@Ridingdog, The maternal and paternal haplogroups make up a fraction of ones ancestry, the real info is in the Autosomal DNA, for example, my maternal haplorgroup is K1a9, most agree it has a Middle Eastern source (though some claim a Western European one), but my Autosomal DNA shows that I'm more of a "native" European than I am a "native" Middle Easterner, and I form a cluster not with Druze and Kurds but with Italians and Greeks, and on the world map, I'm not in the Middle East but in Europe, the Italian peninsula specifically. The average "Native" European ancestry among individual Ashkenazis ranges between 35-55%, I score 45-52%, about 30-38% of my ancestry is "native" Middle Eastern and the rest seems to be Anatolian/Southwest Caucasian. 84.108.30.185 ( talk) 09:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Nishidani I completely agree, in the end of the day humans are 99.9% identical genetically and we all share a common ancestry in east Africa about 50,000 years ago, the 1-100% that you get from autosomal tests represent about 0.010-0.015% of the Human DNA, every individual identifies himself in his own way, and genetics obviously can't make someone identify in this way or that way, and yes it's true that DNA tests are in their infancy, I just replied to a person who used genetics to make his statement. It's very unfortunate that politics have managed to make their way into subjects that are none of their concern, and I've stated time and time again that genetics should be secondary and that one person cannot speak in the name of everyone. 84.108.30.185 ( talk) 13:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Nishidani and Debresser, the genetics came up because Ridingdog said that his maternal haplogroup was common among Druze and Kurds and he was an Ashkenazi Jew therefore "It seems to show that Ashkenazi Jews are really local with Druze and Kurds, no?" To which the IP editor replied that haplogroups make up a fraction of ones ancestry and that most of the ancestry is found in the Autosomes and that Ashkenazis individually can come out more Middle Eastern or more European. Guy355 ( talk) 13:05, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree, genetics are very unreliable and can often lead to contradictions. Guy355 ( talk) 10:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The Genealogical Science: The Search for Jewish Origins and the Politics of Epistemology (Chicago Studies in Practices of Meaning). [1].
Looks like it is directly relevant. Dougweller ( talk) 06:10, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I would like to invite editors to express their opinions about Talk:Czechs#Bohemian Jews and Czech Jews.-- Der Golem ( talk) 09:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
Bohemians and Czechs of the Jewish faith? That's what comes to mind when I think about Bohemian and Czech Jews, kinda like Bohemian and Czech Catholics or Protestants I reckon.
Guy355 (
talk)
13:05, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
What do you want from me Debresser? I can't get what into my head? Guy355 ( talk) 10:24, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Care to be more polite mate? I don't even know you. Guy355 ( talk) 10:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I suggest that in the related ethnic groups section we replace in the "Other Europeans" which links to "ethnic groups in Europe" simply to "Europe" just like the "other Levantines" simply links to "the Levant", is it perhaps possible to include both "Europe" and "ethnic groups in Europe"? If there's any opposition please reply to this section, I know that such subjects are like explosive barrels and that specifically in this article one needs a consensus on just about everything. :-P If there will be no opposition until Sunday then I guess it'll be fine? Guy355 ( talk) 10:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
There's no
Ethnic groups in the Levant? That's a shame. Well okay, I won't touch it.
Guy355 (
talk)
13:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Just a head's up, I posted a request for assistance at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Genetics#Ashkenazi Jews for help determining how much weight to give the variety of genetic studies included, hopefully with the result that this section is reduced in size but, at the same time, reflect whatever scientific consensus exists at this time. I'm not sure of the response this request will receive but I think this article could use the expertise from some editors who have more knowledge and experience editing in this area. Liz Read! Talk! 13:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree, this article would only benefit from editors who actually have experience on the subject of genetics who would be able to make some order from the mess and bias that found it's way into this article via biased inexperienced editors, I hope those experienced editors would agree to help, that's their choice, but I'm sure their work would be only beneficial and greatly appreciated. Guy355 ( talk) 17:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
The link at Reference 101 is dead. If it's intended to be to the article mentioned in 100, http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/ works. Mcljlm ( talk) 08:17, 14 June 2014 (UTC) 14 June 2014
True, every year a new study turns up that contradicts or confirms several previous studies, this science is still in it's infancy and shouldn't be taken as fact. Guy355 ( talk) 10:32, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Why is he included? he specifically said he did not want to be included in racial lists.
"He routinely refused to be included in lists or books that classified people by race. He asked to not be included in Tina Levitan's The Laureates: Jewish Winners of the Nobel Prize, writing, "To select, for approbation the peculiar elements that come from some supposedly Jewish heredity is to open the door to all kinds of nonsense on racial theory" and adding "...at thirteen I was not only converted to other religious views, but I also stopped believing that the Jewish people are in any way 'the chosen people'""
/info/en/?search=Richard_Feynman#Education — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bumblebritches57 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.
Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??
Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 ( talk)
File:Anne Frank.jpg is non-free and has been identified as possibly not being in compliance with the non-free content policy. For specific information on the problems with the file and how they can be fixed, please check the message at File:Anne Frank.jpg. For further questions and comments, please use the non-free content review page. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 09:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Quite the contrary, according to Jewish law, a person with a Jewish mother will always be Jewish, even if he becomes the pope. Guy355 ( talk) 17:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, pardon me, I was wrong, I suppose such a subject would never be a simple issue. Guy355 ( talk) 19:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
True, but Jews are also an ethnicity, they're an ethnoreligious group, and Ashkenazi Jews are a Jewish ethnic division. Just like the Druze are a religion and an ethnicity (the difference is that while Judaism is open for people who truly wish to become Jewish and convert, the Druze religion is completely exclusive to those born into it, but, you get my point.) Guy355 ( talk) 18:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes my point sound Christianity also a religion of some Ashkenazi Jews. so it's possible to add here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians??
Also Heinrich Heine and Karl Marx. Guy355 ( talk) 19:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I reckon it would be accurate, if there's a consensus then go ahead, although I think you should wait for at least 24 hours to see if anyone opposes that.
Guy355 (
talk)
19:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The article is about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, for the article about Jews by the religious law go to the article on Who is a Jew. Converted to Christianity or no is irrelevant to your ethnicity and your origins, so even if Mahler converted he is still an Ashkenazi Jew by ethnicity. By the way, by the Jewish law conversions out of Judaism don't mean anything. Also, those conversions can't really be taken seriously. Many who converted were simply atheists (not true Christians) who simply didn't want anti-Semitism to block their way in society. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 23:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
My point if you want to consider Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, then you should add in Religion Christianity too, Becouse some we added here pictures of at least 4 Jewish who convert to Christianity, If we consdier Ashkenazi Jews as a religious group, Then you should remove Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner and Heinrich Heine, they convert to Christianity and they didn't practced Judaism anymore. But Ashkenazi Jews are both rigth? If we added some secular, irreligious, What the problem to add christians? Christians Ashkenazi Jews they are not small group. Many of the notable Ashkenazi Jews were Christians as Max Born, Fritz Haber, Gerty Cori, George de Hevesy, Dennis Gabor, Leopold Kronecker, Felix Mendelssohn, Gustav Mahler, John von Neumann, Lise Meitner, Heinrich Heine, Bob Dylan, Israel Zolli, Harry Frederick Oppenheimer, Jean-Marie Lustiger and others so we are not talk about small and not visible group, These figures consider important and respocted among Jewish. Besides there are two movements of Jews (mostly Ashkenazi Jews) with large numbers and they are Jewish who converts to Christianity and still identify themselves as Jews and still maintain their Jewish traditions, thes are: Hebrew Catholics and Messianic Judaism.
What i want to say is since Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, as you said and some Jewish (not rare and not small numbers) convert to Christianity why I can't add Christianity it's truth some are Chrsitians : {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians.??
I'm not saying to add this and making a paragraph about it and i don't think it's irrelevant, it's only small word adding this here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians. as i explaind befor the Majority of Ashkenazi Jews practice Judaism but also some are secular, irreligious, and some are Christians (in the USA alone there are 1.6 millions).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 ( talk) 00:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It would seem that the practical rule is "a Christian who was once a Jew or (some of) whose ancestors happened to be Jews will be counted as a Jew if he or she is famous for a good thing". Feketekave ( talk) 16:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I hope the reason that it happens is because Jews are an ethnicity and Ashkenazi Jews are a Jewish ethnic division and not because of the reason you mentioned, if it's the latter, then... :-\ Guy355 ( talk) 16:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
"The authors also report on Eu 19 (R1a) chromosomes, which are very frequent in Central and Eastern Europeans (54%–60%) at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews. They hypothesized that the differences among Ashkenazim Jews could reflect low-level gene flow from surrounding European populations and/or genetic drift during isolation. A later 2005 study by Nebel et al., found a similar level of 11.5% of male Ashkenazim belonging to R1a1a (M17+), the dominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in Central and Eastern Europeans."
This all refers to R1a which not only is frequent in Eastern Europe, but also in India and Mideast. Jews mostly belong to the Mideastern subgroups of R1a and not to the Eastern European subgroups. So please, someone could add this important information or even delete these misleading sentences. Similar problem with R1b and in this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews#Y-DNA_of_Ashkenazi_Jews Robertius ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 21:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.
Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??
Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out ( talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
In the intro, ""The Jews of Germany"), are a Jewish ethnic division originating in the Israelite tribes of the Middle East who coalesced in the Holy Roman Empire around the turn of the first millennium"
Then in the body, "The origins of the Ashkenazim are obscure,[39] and many theories have arisen speculating about their ultimate provenance.[40] The most well supported theory is the one that details a Jewish migration through what is now Italy and other parts of southern Europe."
Which is it? There is no concrete evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Semitic Israelite tribes from the Middle East, so why is the article claiming such a thing? ScienceApe ( talk) 21:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
The Germans were not the only group invited into the empires and kingdoms that controlled territories in Central Europe. The Jews were an important second group. There were two distinct groups of Jews with two separate geographic patterns of migration throughout Europe: Ashkenazim and Sephardim. In 1900 of the approximately 10 million Jews worldwide, over 70 percent were Ashkenazim residing in Central Europe. In general the Ashkenazim originally came out of the Holy Roman Empire, speaking a version of German that incorporates Hebrew and Slavic words, Yiddish. Encouraged to move out of the Holy Roman Empire as persecution of their communities intensified during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the Ashkenazim community increasingly gravitated toward Poland. After Poland joined with Lithuania to move the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Jews moved into the eastern reaches of the Commonwealth, particularly in the regions known as Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine. With the collapse of the Polish—Lithuania Commonwealth and the division of Poland in the eighteenth century (Prussia, Austria, and Russia basically carving up Poland that had de facto become a Russian dependency between 1772 and 1795), most of the Ashkenazim ended up residing in areas controlled by Russia. This area eventually became known as the Pale of Settlement or Pale.
— Mosk, Carl (2013). Nationalism and economic development in modern Eurasia. New York: Routledge. p. 143. ISBN 9780415605182.
The disputed sentence was removed from the article a while ago after fierce discussion. Recently, it was restored in this edit. I have no problem with undoing that edit. Debresser ( talk) 17:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Besides studies on the Ashkenazi Autosomal DNA (the Autosomes represent ones overall ancestry, the maternal/paternal lineages represent only a fraction of ones ancestry) show that Ashkenazi Jews plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, next to Sicilians and Maltese, in the gap between Cypriots (who probably best represent pre Islamic Levantines) and Greeks, there also seems to have been geneflow from Greeks to AJs, there's a genetic relation there, perhaps due to admixture as far away as the late bronze age, and as recently as the Hellenistic/Roman periods. Here's the link for the latest study which shows the plots [2] Guy355 ( talk) 06:49, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
The problem with keeping the two statements together is that it violates WP:SYNTHESIS. If source "A" claims "X" and source "B" claims "Y", you cannot use both sources to make a claim "Z". In this case, you need a source that mentions that they're both Middle eastern in origin and that they coalesced in the Roman Empire. No exceptions. Khazar ( talk) 18:11, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
"The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora... Today, Jews belong to several communities that can be classified according to the location where each community developed. Among others, these include the Middle Eastern communities of former Babylonia and Palestine, the Jewish communities of North Africa and the Mediterranean Basin, and Ashkenazi communities of central and eastern Europe" -- Monochrome_ Monitor 16:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC) [3]
Although the copious number of genetic studies on Ashkenazim — researching both their paternal and maternal lineages — all point to ancient Levantine origins, the studies have arrived at diverging conclusions regarding both the degree and the sources of their non-Levantine admixture.[23] These diverging conclusions focus particularly in respect to the extent of the predominant non-Levantine genetic origin observed in Ashkenazi maternal lineages, which is in contrast to the predominant Levantine genetic origin observed in Ashkenazi paternal lineages. ....with a detailed paragraph like this, why is there an urge to mention this once before, and in less than six words? I'm glad I can help. Best regards, Khazar ( talk) 03:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Monitor, the thing about your quote is that it's about the Ashkenazi paternal lineage, paternal/maternal lineages make up a fraction of ones ancestry, the overall information for ones ancestry is in the Autosomes, and according to the links Guy355 provided, Ashkenazis are roughly as European as Sicilians and Maltese, in the gap between Europe and the near east. Your link looked at the Y chromosome, which indeed most AJs belong to paternal lineages with a near eastern source, but doesn't represent their overall ancestry. BTW, the term "Semitic" is quite irrelevant, there are Semitic languages, but there's no Semitic ethnicity just like there's no Japthetic ethnicity or Hamitic ethnicity, I believe the term you're looking for is west Asian, near eastern, Levantine etc etc. 86.169.239.107 ( talk) 15:40, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
This
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Sergio DellaPergola
should be
Sergio Della Pergola
source: "Sergio Della Pergola" on Wikipedia MEdictate ( talk) 15:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)