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Antoni Dunin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 26 November 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Since the article was created by a descendant, and includes her own self-published family tree as a reference, I think significantly more neutral references are needed here. -- 208.181.90.67 20:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
These, I need to see for Antoni Dunin. If you know of any, please list them here. If we cant find any, the article will get deleted. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 13:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the material that keeps being removed. Either the subject is notable and the sources adequate or not. If not, the article should be deleted. If yes, I see no harm in that material remaining. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 19:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia works by consensus; while the biography notability guidelines apply, this doesn't make the more specific consensus developed in the project discussions any less important. The assertion of his nobility and the military award are not sourced to Elonka's site. Her site is used for biographical background only - the site is also based on third-party references which I am working on locating and including directly since Elonka's site seems to be a major sticking point here. Given the short period of time I've had to work, you could consider that I've already come up with additional third-party sources and allow me some time to wade into the morass that is researching post-war Poland. Or, you could proactive and assist in the research yourself. However, if this is really a "not notable" discussion, it should be going on in the community eye somewhere like Afd. Shell babelfish 13:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Elsie Ivancich Dunin, Jimbo Wales wrote, "Every fact in the article needs to be cited to a reliable source." [4] Not some facts. Every fact. Proabivouac 02:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Please forget who created these articles. It doesnt matter. Thats in the past. We have the material now and we must make sure its appropriate. WP:COI is not an issue. WP:RS is. Here's a version of the article which uses reliable sources only:
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Thats all there is to it. The picture cannot be added because there is no reliable source claiming that Antoni Dunin lived in this house. Is Elonka Dunin's personal website a reliable source for her grandfather Antoni Dunin? Thats the only issue. Wikipedia has to use reliable sources. If Elonka.com is a reliable source for Antoni Dunin, imagine this scenario and tell me if its acceptable:
Please be impartial; forget for a moment that the family member of this article is your friend and you know them. If you are going to accept Elonka.com as a reliable source for Antoni Dunin, realize that:
Looking at Wikipedia:Notability (people):
WP:RS says explictly:
Jimbo Wales himself has said on the Dunin related articles that 'family trees' (meaning personal websites) cannot be used as reliable sources.
So are there any objections to my analysis? Once again, the main issue is: Can the subject's granddaughter's personal website be used as a reliable source for the article, especially when there is only one other reliable source that mentions Antoni Dunin? You either have to accept Elonka.com as a source, or reject it. This is what we have to decide first. Please give your reasonings. If there are any other reliable (3rd party, non-trivial) sources for Antoni Dunin, please add them here, but as far as I know, thats the only source I can see. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Since my request to give me time for offline research has been ignored, here's a few of the online resources I've found so far.
Blueboar, it might be worth noting, since this discussion has snowballed to many areas due to forum shopping that Elonka's personal site is referenced. I am digging up those references and translating from Polish so they can be used directly since there is such opposition to using her site. Shell babelfish 15:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
To demonstrate the amount of unsourced OR in this article which has been reverted time and again, I am asking for a reliable source that makes this assertion:
In a few days, I will remove this and other unsourced OR in the article. If anyone has any questions, let me know here right now. Please dont revert later without an explanation, without providing a source or without telling me why the subject's grandaughter's personal website is a reliable source (do see BlueBoar's comments above). -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 19:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
My opinion is that this article just "barely" meets Notability guidelines. Nobility and recipients of notable awards would probably meet notability guidelines in my opinion. So the real question here revolves around the use of sources from Elonka Dunin, descendant of the topic of the article. While "Personal websites" are generally not allowed, I don't see a problem with a website created by a descendant and used sources. While it would be original research, I think that if someone else added it as research which Elonka Dunin created but who was not affiliated with Elonka Dunin, It should be alright. I've seen many instances of articles using sources published by descendants of the person being discussed. As long as someone who didn't publish the material uses it as a reference, It should suffice in my opinion. Wikidudeman (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This section currently reads:
Dunin is one of the characters in the Italian novel "Il Guardiano dei Signio" (The Guardian of Dreams) by Paolo Maurensig ( ISBN 8-80-454976-9).
This material was added by User:AndyFinkenstadt, [14] a known associate (at least) of the articles' creator who even went so far as to to create Paolo Maurensig in order to shore up this reference. The notability of Maurensi aside, is there any reliable source which states that Maurensig refers to Antoni Dunin, or can establish that this is a notable fact about Antoni Dunin? Or, can someone at least quote the relevant passage(s)? Proabivouac 09:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Without wanting to criticise the work that has already gone into this article, I feel that it could be improved a bit. Some suggestions I have are:
Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Once these have been added you might consider having the article re-assessed. This can be done by going to WP:MHA. Also peer review can help with providing some ideas for future development. This can be done by going to WP:MHPR. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 07:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link)
-- El on ka 23:56, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Antoni Dunin article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 26 November 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 22 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Since the article was created by a descendant, and includes her own self-published family tree as a reference, I think significantly more neutral references are needed here. -- 208.181.90.67 20:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
These, I need to see for Antoni Dunin. If you know of any, please list them here. If we cant find any, the article will get deleted. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 13:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the material that keeps being removed. Either the subject is notable and the sources adequate or not. If not, the article should be deleted. If yes, I see no harm in that material remaining. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 19:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia works by consensus; while the biography notability guidelines apply, this doesn't make the more specific consensus developed in the project discussions any less important. The assertion of his nobility and the military award are not sourced to Elonka's site. Her site is used for biographical background only - the site is also based on third-party references which I am working on locating and including directly since Elonka's site seems to be a major sticking point here. Given the short period of time I've had to work, you could consider that I've already come up with additional third-party sources and allow me some time to wade into the morass that is researching post-war Poland. Or, you could proactive and assist in the research yourself. However, if this is really a "not notable" discussion, it should be going on in the community eye somewhere like Afd. Shell babelfish 13:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Elsie Ivancich Dunin, Jimbo Wales wrote, "Every fact in the article needs to be cited to a reliable source." [4] Not some facts. Every fact. Proabivouac 02:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Please forget who created these articles. It doesnt matter. Thats in the past. We have the material now and we must make sure its appropriate. WP:COI is not an issue. WP:RS is. Here's a version of the article which uses reliable sources only:
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)Thats all there is to it. The picture cannot be added because there is no reliable source claiming that Antoni Dunin lived in this house. Is Elonka Dunin's personal website a reliable source for her grandfather Antoni Dunin? Thats the only issue. Wikipedia has to use reliable sources. If Elonka.com is a reliable source for Antoni Dunin, imagine this scenario and tell me if its acceptable:
Please be impartial; forget for a moment that the family member of this article is your friend and you know them. If you are going to accept Elonka.com as a reliable source for Antoni Dunin, realize that:
Looking at Wikipedia:Notability (people):
WP:RS says explictly:
Jimbo Wales himself has said on the Dunin related articles that 'family trees' (meaning personal websites) cannot be used as reliable sources.
So are there any objections to my analysis? Once again, the main issue is: Can the subject's granddaughter's personal website be used as a reliable source for the article, especially when there is only one other reliable source that mentions Antoni Dunin? You either have to accept Elonka.com as a source, or reject it. This is what we have to decide first. Please give your reasonings. If there are any other reliable (3rd party, non-trivial) sources for Antoni Dunin, please add them here, but as far as I know, thats the only source I can see. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 02:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Since my request to give me time for offline research has been ignored, here's a few of the online resources I've found so far.
Blueboar, it might be worth noting, since this discussion has snowballed to many areas due to forum shopping that Elonka's personal site is referenced. I am digging up those references and translating from Polish so they can be used directly since there is such opposition to using her site. Shell babelfish 15:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
To demonstrate the amount of unsourced OR in this article which has been reverted time and again, I am asking for a reliable source that makes this assertion:
In a few days, I will remove this and other unsourced OR in the article. If anyone has any questions, let me know here right now. Please dont revert later without an explanation, without providing a source or without telling me why the subject's grandaughter's personal website is a reliable source (do see BlueBoar's comments above). -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 19:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
My opinion is that this article just "barely" meets Notability guidelines. Nobility and recipients of notable awards would probably meet notability guidelines in my opinion. So the real question here revolves around the use of sources from Elonka Dunin, descendant of the topic of the article. While "Personal websites" are generally not allowed, I don't see a problem with a website created by a descendant and used sources. While it would be original research, I think that if someone else added it as research which Elonka Dunin created but who was not affiliated with Elonka Dunin, It should be alright. I've seen many instances of articles using sources published by descendants of the person being discussed. As long as someone who didn't publish the material uses it as a reference, It should suffice in my opinion. Wikidudeman (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
This section currently reads:
Dunin is one of the characters in the Italian novel "Il Guardiano dei Signio" (The Guardian of Dreams) by Paolo Maurensig ( ISBN 8-80-454976-9).
This material was added by User:AndyFinkenstadt, [14] a known associate (at least) of the articles' creator who even went so far as to to create Paolo Maurensig in order to shore up this reference. The notability of Maurensi aside, is there any reliable source which states that Maurensig refers to Antoni Dunin, or can establish that this is a notable fact about Antoni Dunin? Or, can someone at least quote the relevant passage(s)? Proabivouac 09:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Without wanting to criticise the work that has already gone into this article, I feel that it could be improved a bit. Some suggestions I have are:
Just a few ideas. Hope this helps. Once these have been added you might consider having the article re-assessed. This can be done by going to WP:MHA. Also peer review can help with providing some ideas for future development. This can be done by going to WP:MHPR. — AustralianRupert ( talk) 07:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) CS1 maint: multiple names: editors list (
link)
-- El on ka 23:56, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Antoni Dunin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 21:40, 15 October 2016 (UTC)