The following quotes removed as irrelevant.
mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The first one is a stereotype of Poles being thieves (I am sorry to hear you are under the influence of the stereotype) The second denies Poland sovereignty, and tries to portay it as part of Russia.-- Molobo 18:34, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"The stereotype has its grounds. " I am sure Germans and Russians don't rob people or commit crimes like those Poles...
"Or you are going to claim that equal number of stolen cars landed in France? " Actually they were stolen by Russian gangs and landed in Russia from what I know. Yet there is no German saying that "Your car is in Russia." -- Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Sovereighty: So what? It (i.e., absence of sov..ty) was a historical fact." Claiming Poland doesn't have right to being independent and isn't foreign is antipolish sentiment.
For Russification and persecution of Poles in Russian occupied Poland as well as negative views of Poles in Russian society(including Pogroms of Poles) and ideology see relevant links and sources in the article.-- Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Russian peasants (a source of all Russian folklore) did not persecute Poles in Poland" That would be very difficult because they were scarcely any Russian peasents on the territory of Poland, the main Russian population were soldiers and tsars administration. However in Russia persecution of Poles and negative stereotypes of them existed contrary to your belief, from link in the main article(I urge you to read it and links before commenting): http://www.acls.org/crn/network/ebook_gatagova_paper2.doc "In Russian national consciousness, the image of the Pole as one from a foreign religion was formed long ago. The Pole's everyday behavior and his clothes were perceived as signs of his Catholic affiliation. Moreover, the Catholic was associated with dark powers. Because in the folk sphere the reflection of historical reality is very often transferred into the unconscious level, the complex, centuries-long history of Russian –Polish coexistence have "accumulated" a great mass of myths and legends. These unceasingly feed the dangerously antagonistic relations between the two peoples. Here are some small examples of folk creativity expressing negative stereotypes from one side: "The Polock is a cursed soul" "cursed unbelievers" "dishonest Polocks."" " Anti-polish sentiment gripped the peasant masses to a lesser extent, than it did the educated classes. However, in the common people also, Polonophobia was very noticeable. In any case, when a wave of fires swept over the western provinces of the empire in 1865 (soon after the rebellion), many anonymous letters and various kinds of rumors arose about the crafty schemes of the Poles. From all areas, mass accusations of arson poured out against the Poles. Their motivations seemed unconvincing. Nevertheless. all the "accusers" agreed that it was essential to severely/cruelly cut off the "criminal intentions" of yesterday's insurgent rebels. Here is one of many examples: in 1865, in Novoarkhangelsk settlement in Kherson province, a few insignificant fires too place. Local authorities with the total support of the population placed the blame for what had happened on two Poles: the officer Leshchinsky (who was on indefinite leave) and his fifteen-year-old son. In September of 1866 a major fire burned about 600 houses in the city of Serdobsk in Saratov province; there also, exiled Poles were found to be "guilty." They were saved from violent reprisals only by speedy transit by urgent convoy to another place. A later inquiry revealed the Poles had absolutely no involvement in the setting of the fires. In Saratov itself, something resembling the "Doctor's Plot" was initiated. The following very serious accusation was directed at three doctors of Polish decent who had worked in the Alexander Hospital: "The treatment of lower ranking officials has turned out to be completely careless and even intentionally incorrect, following the dangerous way of thinking of the Polish doctors Krasovsky, Rudkovsky, and Malakhovsky, the antagonistic feelings of whom towards the Russians have aroused the censure of military authorities and local society." The fears of Polish spies, arsonists and poisoners that was being whipped up by rumor aroused the residents of Moscow to form a home [national] guard (!). Multiple manifestations of Polonophobia were noted even in private life. For example, in Petersburg, the wife of the collegiate assessor Iurevich demanded that her husband be separated from her four minor children, asserting that her spouse "as a Pole tries to develop in them enemy feelings towards Russians."
The say that Poland isn't foreign is justification of Russia's conquest of Poland, Russification and denial of existance of Polish nationality and culture. -- Molobo 10:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2005/02/22/2038_type82916_84445.shtml
This article does not contain words "Poland" or "polish", hence irrelevant to anti-polonism. It does say about Molotv-ribbentrop Pact, so what?
mikka
(t)
-
As for the people who want to or attempt to rewrite history, to disparage the importance of this event and the important of the Soviet Union and the Red Army, the Soviet Army, in the victory over Nazism, we understand the events that this is connected with. For example, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is often mentioned, which resulted in a pact between Soviet Russia, the Soviet Union and Hitler’s Germany, and the subsequent annexation of the Baltic States.
What can one say about this? Everything needs to be seen in the context of historic events. And I would ask you to return to the events of September 1938, when agreements were made between Nazi Germany and western European countries, which later went down in history as the “Munich pact”.
I would also remind you that these agreements were signed by the western allies: Daladier, I believe, from France and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, and on the other side by Mussolini and Hitler himself.
The Soviet-German document was signed on a much lower level – on the level of foreign ministers – one year later, in response to the treaty signed by the western countries, which is now called the “Munich pact”. I would also remind you – and for you as Slovaks, this is probably especially important: as a result of the Munich pact, Czechoslovakia was handed over to Nazi Germany, and the western partners, as it were, showed Hitler where he should go to fulfil his growing ambitions – to the East. To protect its interests and security on its western borders, the Soviet Union signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with Germany.
If we look at the problem in this context, it looks quite different. And I would recommend new historians, or rather those who want to rewrite history, to learn to read books before they rewrite or write them. Please stick to the topic of the article: existing or alleged anti-Polonism. Some people are kind of busy here to read long easays. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC) If one justifies a pact of aggression against Poland and Polish people(that led to murder of 6milion Polish citizens) as selfdefence its certainly antipolish-and was reported as such by Polish media. -- Molobo 10:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Second link:
http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/metroon/1,0,2762689.html " Argunowa wyjaśnia, że Rosja podczas rozbiorów nie zajęła żadnych etnicznie polskich terytoriów, lecz przywróciła w swe władanie ruskie ziemie wchodzące w skład wczesnośredniowiecznej Rusi" Argunowa explains that Russia during the Partitions Russia didn't take ethnic polish territories but reclaimed into its rule Russian territories that were part of early medieval Rus.-- Molobo 19:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
As you know Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was aimed against Poland, and led to massacres of Polish population. Furthermore it was series of treaties also directed against Poles : " http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm
The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:
Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.
Moscow, September 28,1939.
For the Government of the German Retch:
J. RIBBENTROP
By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:
W. MOLOTOV "
The claim that Poland was just part of Russia is obvious antipolish statement and I don't think there is anything confusing about it. -- Molobo 10:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Temporary I excluded this parts into this talk-page, because:
1. This is an encyclopedia. And not a listing of individuals and every irrelevant individual cases happened in Germany against Polish. Primarily an encyclopedia should only describe a subject.
2. There do not exit any official reprisals by the German State against Polish or polish citizen in (todays) Germany.
Funny ? Yes since if you would read the previous talk you would know we were talking about several cases.The article you source has certain bias I am afraid and takes sides. Molobo
==== Anti-Polonism in Germany ====
{{Sectfact}}{{POV-section}}
Antipolish sentiments persist in Germany.
===== Rudi Pawelka =====
Poland is accused by some groups of having caused World War II. Rudi Pawelka the president of the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia in his speech made in Nuremberg blamed the outburst of the war on, in his opinion, acts of aggression committed by Poles during the period 1918-1938.
===== German courts and Polish language and culture =====
German courts have not only forbidden divorced Polish-speaking parents to teach their children Polish, but also voiced objections to raising them in Polish culture, claiming that to do so would be harmful to their development. [4], [5]. In addition they have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work.
===== German media's portrayal of Poland =====
Another example of anti-Polish bias in the German media is the "Harald Schmidt Show." The highlights of this extremely popular program are insulting "jokes" about Poles, Polish culture and Poland. Harald Schmidt, who exploits antipolish views and stereotypes that a few decades earlier accompanied German crimes of genocide against the Polish people, such as supposed inferior intellect or natural criminality of Poles, has received the Bambi viewers' choice award, the Grimme Award, the Golden Camera, and the Golden Lion as best show host.
===== Florian Illies =====
Florian Illies, a former journalist with the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and best-selling author, also cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias, with jokes on the Polish language and cleaners. Incidentally, Illies actively supported a motion to reanimate name the name of "Preußen" (Prussia) for a new German federal state to be formed by a merger of the capital Berlin with Brandenburg; hostility towards Poland had been one of the political cornerstones of historical Prussia [6].
===== German constitution and politics =====
German constitution grants German citizenship to Polish-born persons if their ancestors were Germans citizens living on German territory as of 1937. In addition radical German organisations expressing anti-Polish views(blaming Poles for WWII), are visited on regular basis by leading CDU and CSU politicians [7]
I think we should discuss about the relevance of this segment and if we should put it in a changed up form back to the article. It make a view and image about Germany that still isn´t true. Jonny84 23:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Moved from above, I think the following should be deleted until sourced:
Further, it is never asserted that such policies (if in fact they are policies) differ substantially from the treatment given Turks, Arabs etc. Are the Poles singled out or this a general tendency toward homogenization (which, ultimately, the larger German society is free to pursue)? Poles have a long tradition in Germany of persecution and antipolish feelings are expressed on regular basis in Germany.In the past they have led to murder by Germans of 6milion Polish citizens.See previous talk.-- Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I really think the last point is important. It isn't Anti-Polonism if it occurs across the board with minorities, any more than Japanese attitudes are anti-Koreanism (xenophobic yes, but toward virtually every foreign group). I know, for instance, third-generation Turks cannot become Germans. So please prove the above points and attempt to show their notability vis-a-vis other groups. Marskell 09:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Everything what is now in the anti-Polonism in Germany today - section is false.
Rudi Pawelka paragraph:
"German courts and Polish language and culture
Harald Schmidt Show
Florian Illies
So this is the anti-Polonism of today's Germany in the article: chimeras dressed as facts. None of the allegations is true. Molobo, I know your passion for Nazism and other things connected to WWII but face it: we live in the 21th century, times have changed. Don't invent facts only to try to connect a WWII article to today. Does anyone apart from Molobo think any "fact" should be included? NightBeAsT 12:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for compiling this NightBeAsT, I thought of doing it myself. - guety is talking english bad 01:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear NightBeast! You think that I deleted the 'German-Polish-Friendship-Section'. Well, that is not true. Unfortunately my IP is a shared IP, 15.000 Students use it every day. It is possible, that someone else deleted the section... I have no influence on what people use our server and what they do with this page. Micha.
Please don't lie NB. I said clearly that I support the article on attempts to erase traditional antipolonism in German culture and adding link to the main article.As to the title-in terms of culture such thing as friendship between two nations is a bit unscientific in my view, of course they exist nations that have culturaly friendly views to each other, this is not the case of course with Germans and Poles so title would be false. -- Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.westfr.de/ns-literatur/konservative.htm -- Molobo 19:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
So please watch out for awkward statements such "add this lies" etc.-- Molobo 20:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The entire article confuses several terms and meanings, and interprets everything as Anti-polish prejudice without real understanding. Overall, it is pure POV with little real content.
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm + - The Sub-human (RuSHA, 1942) + - "The category of sub-human (Untermensch) included Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.) Gypsies and Jews. TOP + - "To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated: + - The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1 The Nazis acknowledged that among the sub-humans, (especially among their leaders) there were those few who had obvious traces of Aryan-Nordic ancestry; however, it was decided that most of these people would have to be destroyed in order to leave the inferior races without leadership. It was possible that some of these superior people could be "germanized" -- but if not, one should at least preserve the good blood in their children. By this logic, many thousands of Polish children were subjected to a racial test. Those who had what Nazis defined as "Aryan" characteristics -- such as blue eyes, blond hair, a properly proportioned head, good behavior and above average intelligence -- were kidnapped from their parents and shipped to Germany for ultimate adoption by appropriate German families. " +
Furthermore I have nothing against adding in Russophobia article that Russians were perceived by German state as subhumans. -- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
That Poles were considered subhumans by German state in WW2 .That is right. -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Michal Czaplicki from the Institute which made the study summed up the findings : http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?wid=4810708&katn=Polska&widn=%22Polska+krajem+biedy+i+z%B3odziei+samochod%F3w%22&kat=1342&ticaid=1468&_ticrsn=3 "Niemcy postrzegają Polskę bardziej negatywnie, przede wszystkim jako kraj złodziei i kraj, który jest inny" "Germans view Poland more negative-most of all as country of thieves, and country that is different." As you can see the stereotype of Poles being criminals that existed during German atrocities in Poland still exist in Germany. -- Molobo 22:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Some specific concerns:
I already provided information on polls in regards to German societies attitude towards Polish people.Please read talk carefully in the future Alx: "In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago." From article sourced above-I thought you read it since you decided to delete it. Molobo
|Molobo]] 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
"Uważajcie. Tu siedzą polnische banditen! - ostrzega Niemiec. - No to im pokażemy! - rzucam. Niemcy się śmieją." "Look out.Here are polnische banditen-warns the German-We will show them-I shout.Germans laugh" This from memories the German anihiliation of Warsaw.As you can see the term describing Poles as thieves is used by Germans.The same stereotype is repeated by Schmidt. -- Molobo 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"we are back to bad jokes" Which are the same stereotype that in part led to and was used in mass murder of Poles by Germany.It is certainly worth noting that such stereotypes have found audience again in Germany. -- Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"though a reference to Schmidt's use of the stereotype would be nice."
From Thomas Urban-a know researcher on German-Polish relations. http://www.thomas-urban.pl/artykul2.php "Wróciły dobrze znane stereotypy na temat Polaków: „polski bałagan", „Polak-złodziej", „Polską rządzi kler, ciemnota" i „Polacy to antysemici". Niestety, sporo Niemców traktuje Polskę jako jakiś dziki kraj, gdzie rośnie tajga. Parę lat temu znany prezenter TV Harald Schmidt regularnie opowiadał do znudzenia dowcipy o Polakach, którzy kradną. W ten sposób urabia się opinię." Well known stereotypes about Poles have returned-"Polish disorder", "Poland is led by priests and dumbness" and "Poles are antisemites".Unfortunetly most Germans treat Poland as wild country wher taiga grows.A few years ago known TV presenter regularly till boredom talked about Poles that steal.In such way an opinion is made. -- Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Usage of stereotype of Poles being criminals in concentration camp by SSmen http://republika.pl/horajec/okup2.html" przychodzi oficer esesman i każdego z nas wita harapem, lub butem w brzuch, albo pięścią w twarz . Mnie tak przywitał , że mi ząb zaraz wyleciał i mówił "polnisch bandit"." An SS officer comes and welcomes us with harap, or with kick in the stomach, or fist in the face.He welcomed me so much, my tooth fell out, and he spoke "polnisch bandit".
"Idziemy piątkami na drugie pole- w bramie nas liczą i nahajką ćwiczą. Esesmani mówią coś do siebie, pokazują na nas - "polnische banditen". Przystanęliśmy przy pierwszym bloku; prowadzą nas do trzeciego bloku."
We go in five on the second field-in the gates the count us and treat with whips.SSmen speak something to themselfs, they point out us-"polnische banditen".We stoped at the first bloc, they led us to third bloc.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities9.htm During the Rising, on leaving the house where I lived, No. 30 Ogrodowa Street, I found myself in a shelter of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, No. 2 Elektoralna Street. This was on August 7, 1944. In the shelter there were several hundred people, mostly women and children. In the afternoon of this day, after the Insurgents had retreated from Elektoralna Street, a German outpost was set in front of the gateway of the Ministry. About 9 o’clock in the evening 2 gendarmes entered the shelter and ordered all the men to go out. The soldier who stood on guard assured us that we were only going to work. We were led out three by three (we were about 150 men) to Mirowski Square, among the buildings of the two Market Halls. Here we were ordered to remove the corpses, scores of which were lying on the ground, and after that, rubble from the gutters and the roadway. There were about a hundred Poles on the square when we came, all busy cleaning it up, and some hundreds of Germa n gendarmes, who behaved very brutally: beating the Poles, kicking them, and calling them Polnische Banditen. At a certain moment they stopped our work and ordered those who were not Poles to step forward. One man who had White-Russian documents did so, and was immediately released. After an hour and a half’s work, the gendarmes ordered us to form threes. I found myself in the second rank. We were all made to stand with our hands up. An old man in the front rank, who could not hold his hands up any longer, was cruelly struck in the face by a gendarme. After 10 minutes five rows of three were marched off under the escort of five gendarmes armed with tommy guns to the Market Hall in Chlodna Street. By chance I heard the names of two of the gendarmes who shouted to each other, Lipinski and Walter. When we entered the building after passing two gates I saw, almost in the centre of the Hall, a deep hole in which a fire was burning; it must have been sprinkled with petrol because of the dense black smo ke. We were put under a wall on the left side of the entrance near a lavatory. We stood separately with faces turned to the wall and hands up.
After a few minutes I heard a series of shots and I fell. Lying on the ground I heard the moans and groans of people lying close to me and also more shots. When the firing ceased I heard the gendarmes counting those who lay on the ground; they only counted up to thirteen. Then they began to look for two more who were missing. They found a father and son hiding in the adjoining lavatory. They brought them out, and I heard the voice of the boy shouting "Long live Poland", and then shots and moans."
As you can see there is much evidence that stereotype of Poles being criminals was used by Germans during their mass murder of Polish people.The same stereotype repeated by German media star that was awarded for his work.
I am sure those Poles would love German jokes about Poles being criminals...
-- Molobo 22:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Some statistics about German jokes on the Web (from Google search results):
I think this proves my point that German jokes are more about direct neighbors and do not reflect a specific prejudice. Groeck 20:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. And to extend the point a little farther: is John Cleese anti-German?: is Steve Coogan anti-French?: is Chris Rock anti-white? Sure, if you pick a given skit, but in general no. Keep your thinking cap on. An anti-Polish joke on German T.V. is not the reappearance of the SS. Is Canadian culture anti-American? Of course. But no more anti-American than American culture is anti-Canadian (according to ME)...and of course it reveals a bond as much as anything else (why, incidentally, did German-Polish friendship get removed?). Nothing on the page proves to me that this is specific and particular to Poles. I asked this above and I think it important: is the treatment of Poles in Germany different than that provided Turks and Arabs? I'd like to see somebody prove yes. Marskell 23:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. I collected some more stats, this time about articles in German language mentioning hate of foreigners. Countries are mentioned in such articles as follows:
Obviously, there is no statistical relationship between the number of jokes and the amount of "hate".
There are several good articles on the web about hate of foreigners in Germany, including some with Polish-German specifics and theories about its roots. For example, it apears that the East German SED (the only political party in the German Democratic Republic before the reunification) started an anti-Polish campaign in the 1980's. This is information which can easily be confirmed and should have a well deserved place in the Anti-Polonism article. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Instead, there is a lot of non-information, information which would usually be removed from Wikipedia as "original research".
I would suggest to remove all unconfirmed information, i.e., all original research, and replace it with information which can be confirmed through independent references. Groeck 04:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Please read it then instead of repeating the same questions over and over. -- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I will second Groeck. The article proved that German citizenship or "status" laws are archaic and insular. It did not prove specifically anti-Polish bigotry. Marskell 22:26, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
'The Germans speak arrogantly of Polnische Wirtschaft, thus confirming the economic differences between the two countries but conveniently forgetting the German (and Prussian) contribution to the destruction of that Wirtschaft. In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago. On the other hand, during the time of communism in central and eastern Europe, it was difficult for Polish and other immigrants from communism to develop pride concerning their country of origin. The poverty of eastern and central European countries, their lack of democracy and constant economic crises evoked the feeling shame and jealousy as contrasted with West German prosperity. The discrimination of Poles (and of other ethnic minorities) in Germany has been exacerbated by the extremist right and its slogans of Deutschland für Deutsche and Ausländer raus!
Still another problem is the culture shock stemming from two different perceptions of what Europe really means. To Poles, it seems natural that they, together with the Germans, belong to a common European culture and share a common religion. This feeling of belonging together is not shared by the Germans. While the Poles accept German culture as part of European culture, the Germans do not see Polish culture as sharing the same cultural roots. While an educated Pole knows at least some German writers, the opposite is not true of an educated German. The growing realization of this situation, the feeling of frustration, anger and resentment not only against the Germans but also against Polish culture is a natural result, and some immigrants begin to share the prejudices of the dominant group. While the emigration of the last 20 years has somewhat softened these problems, they still do exist.
That does not prevent the occasional Germans revisionist claims. Among those was a recent attempt by the extreme right wing German party, "Nationale Offensive," to establish itself in the Opole region of Poland, in the village of Dziewkowice. The Bund der Vertriebenen, an organization representing those expelled from east of the Oder-Neisse line, occasionally expresses revisionist goal and demands that Germans from Germany be allowed to join the German minority organizations in Poland. "Helmut, you are our chancellor too:" such posters (in Polish) occasionally appeared in Silesia under the auspices of such German organizations.
In particular, the treatment accorded to Poles has obviously been not on the agenda of the German civil rights organizations or of those German scholars and thinkers who spend time agonizing over Germany's actions in the twentieth century. +
Few Germans wish to remember that the establishment of Poland's western border along the Oder-Neisse rivers is linked with the incorporation of 46 percent of Poland's prewar territory by the Soviet Union and the decision of the three Great Powers to transfer German population from Poland to Germany, and the Polish population from Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania to post-German territories. The forced human dislocation, without precedent in modern history, compelled 4.5 million Poles to leave their eastern and rural homelands and move to the industrialized region abandoned by the forcibly expelled millions of Germans. The Germans remember the tragedy of their dislocation but conveniently forget that of the Poles.
-- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This comment refers to the first part of this chapter. I understand it has been discussed before. After reading through the related talk page comments, there appears to have been an agreement that the statements made are unsupported by the facts. Yet, the text is still there.
I spent some time last night trying to find references for the several "it has been cited that ..." statements in this chapter. I could not find any. References cited confirm the statements, but not an associated Anti-Polish sentiment, much less an "Anti-Polonism" associated with it (of course, I might have missed something).
In addition, the claim made about Polish cavalry fails to mention that the "supidity and incompetence" argument was used during WW II as propaganda by the Germans (and would thus belong to the pre-1945 section). References I found on the Web, contrary to the claim made, typically refer to the bravery of such attacks, and tend to correctly clarify that it was typically not real attacks, but the best way for attacking horses to pass by suddenly appearing tanks.
As such, the text should be removed, or references should be provided for every "has been cited". Groeck 13:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for creating a separate headline for this, even though it has been mentioned a number of times above.
I downloaded the referenced document. I searched through it several times. Either it does not mention the term "anti-Polonism", or I forgot how to search in a Word document. I also tried to find a link through an internet search, but did not find it either. I understand that it has been claimed multiple times that the term would be there, and that an internet search would point to it. Did anyone besides me try to download the file ? If so, did you find the term ? If it is not there, it should not be cited in the article as reference.
Groeck 15:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
In other words a Polish word is used for the English version.Lets not give impression Alx that this is a different word. -- Molobo 22:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason for changing the title. We don't have "Anti-Jewish sentiment".The word Antipolonism is used in scholary works. -- Molobo 17:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Putting Poles in gas chambers and executing children claiming they are animals isn't hate ? Then again you just claimed calling Poles criminals isn't antipolish. -- Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Add info on consistant stereotypes in German cultural sphere on Poles:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/09/02/poland.injuries.ap/?section=cnn_latest Austria also faces the prospect of Polish prosecutors investigating a complaint against midfielder Dietmar Kuehbauer. Kuehbauer, who is set to play, is alleged to have refused to be interviewed with Poland's Adam Ledwon on Austrian television last Saturday, saying he "stinks Polish." -- Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to use some style of formatting to help separating comments from each other ? Groeck 18:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/cgjs/publications/hbpolgerpol.html German anti-Slavism, which was often directed at the Poles, had prominent spokesman in the nineteenth century. In a letter in March 1861 to his sister Malwine, Bismarck, for example, expressed the Prussian-German attitude towards the Poles which turned out to be a blueprint for the future: "So clobbeth the Poles so that they despair; they have my deepest sympathy for their situation, but, if we want to exist, we have no choice but to wipe them out ('ausrotten'); the wolf cannot help it that he was created by God the way he is, but one shoots him yet, if one can."(11)
When the German empire made frenetic attempts to germanise her Polish provinces, she was supported by organisations like the Ostmarkenverein or the Pan-German alliance. These endeavours were also well received by prominent German intellectuals. As, for example, the sociologist Max Weber, once a member of the Pan-German alliance, put it: "It was we who humanised the Poles"(12). This anti-Slavism was to be brought to a climax during the Third Reich. -- Molobo 23:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
A phobia is "irrational fear".The article doesn't speak about irrational fear about Germans but about cultural, political and historical aspects of German society that led to atrocities against Poles.Of course it isn't limited to Germany.I doubt you can speak about a phobia when real life atrcoities accured.You could if they didn't. -- Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"Furthermore, one might possibly suspect some level of emotional response on your side, especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans." So far we hace seen emotional and quite hysteric reaction IMHO on part of German posters towards mentioning historical facts which could led us to some conclusions as to their view of history of Germany.However Wikipedia is not original research.
"especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans" I have yet to express opinion on Germans in the article.So far I used scholary works, historical events and quotes from German politicians such as Bismarck, Hitler, or Goebbels.-- Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but you have proved nothing so far.Have you proved that Germans didn't use the stereotype of Poles as criminals during WW2 as justification for atrocities ? No you didn't.Have you proved that Harald Schmidt doesn't use the same stereotype ? No you didn't. Furthermore If we have a mathematical solution to solving POW disputes in regards to history or political views then I suggest you post it on Wiki's main page right away. I suggest a Noble is also in order. Molobo.
You can't show mathematically what history is probable or true.Sorry. -- Molobo 00:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Both from and about Poles. Doesn't seem to be limited to Germans telling jokes.
Groeck 00:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but Urban said so.I didn't interpret his words.Only translated.You see any other translation ? -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC) 3) is a conclusion which equals Polish stereotypes with anti-Polish attitute I doubt claiming Poles are criminals, thieves, bandits-just like German Reich under Nazis did-is pro-Polish. -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Your attempts of apologism towards German stereotypes of Poles as criminals is not going to change the fact that such stereotype was used in German atrocities against Poles and is still found in German society.Furthermore experts on Polish-German relations admit that Schimdts jokes serve to portayal a negative view of Poles.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"In respect to your interpretation of Thomas Urban's quotes"
I didn't provide an interpretation.I provided a translation.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
" The claim "approved by German society" would, however, require references"
Schimdt won several awards.It doesn't seem he was isolated or that he angered German public by using stereotypes of Poles as criminals that accompanied German mass murder of Poles in XX century.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore you can find acceptence by another German public figure of his usage of the stereotype:
http://www.kaindlstorfer.at/interviews/illies.html
"Was heißt das?
Illies: Harald Schmidt hat uns gelehrt, daß man Menschen einfach nicht ernst nehmen kann, die ständig vom Umweltschutz reden und hellblaue Buttons mit Friedenstauben tragen, weil diese Menschen den Umweltschutz und das Buttontragen selbst viel zu ernst nehmen. Außerdem sind wir die erste Generation, die wieder über Polenwitze lachen kann, ohne gleich an den Polenfeldzug von 1939 denken zu müssen. Auch in dieser Beziehung hat uns Harald Schmidt befreit."
It seems that Harald Schimdt serves as way of letting Germans forget the atrocities on Polish people(We must remember that both Polenfeldzug was a Nazi propaganda term, and that Wehrmacht mass murdered polish civilians during this war).However pointing out such conclusion would be Original Research I think.So the best way would be making a sentence about the Polnische Banditen stereotype used to justify murder of Poles by Germans in WW2 with examples and then citing Illies praising Schmidt that such stereotype can be used again in Germany.
--
Molobo
11:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but you are wrong-the stereotype about Poles being criminals was used to justify mass murder of Polish people.Schmidt uses the same stereotype and as we can see-receives gratitude for allowing Germans to again portay Poles as criminals. Molobo
"What a absurd conclusion. " Sorry but I already provided several examples of Germans atrocities where such stereotypes were used by Germans towards Poles. Here is another example of German stereotype of Poles being criminals that was used during an German atrocity:
he people who stood at the entrance were led, no, pushed in, not all at once but in groups of 20. A boy of twelve, seeing the bodies of his parents and of his little brother through the half-open entrance door, fell in a fit and began to shriek. The Germans and Vlassov's men beat him and pushed him back, while he was endeavouring to get inside. He called for his father and his mother. We all knew what awaited us here; there was no possibility of escape or of buying one's life; there was a crowd of Germans, Ukrainians* (Vlassov's men), and cars. I came last and kept in the background, continuing to let the others pass, in the hope that they would not kill a pregnant woman, but I was driven in with the last lot. In the yard I saw heaps of corpses 3 feet high, in several places. The whole right and left side of the big yard (the first yard) was strewn with bodies. (A sketch of the yard was made by the deponent.) We were led through the second. There were about 20 people in our group, mostly children of 10 to 12. There were children without parents, and also a paralysed old woman whose son-in-law had been carrying her all the time on his back. At her side was her daughter with two children of 4 and 7. They were all killed. The old woman was literally killed on her son-in-law's back, and he along with her. We were called out in groups of four and led to the end of the second yard to a pile of bodies. When the four reached this point, the Germans shot them through the backs of their heads with revolvers. The victims fell on the heap, and others came. Seeing what was to be their fate, some attempted to escape; they cried, begged, and prayed for mercy. I was in the last group of four. I begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, but the German supervising the execution would not allow them to do so, and when I begged him to let me go he pushed me off, shouting "Quicker!" I fell when he pushed me. He also hit and pushed my elder boy, shouting "hurry up, you Polish bandit ". Thus I came to the place of execution, in the last group of four, with my three children. I held my two younger children by one hand, and my elder boy by the other. The children were crying and praying. The elder boy, seeing the mass of bodies, cried out: "they are going to kill us" and called for his father. The first shot hit him, the second me; the next two killed the two younger children. I fell on my right side. The shot was not fatal. The bullet penetrated the back of my head from the right side and went out through my cheek. I spat out several teeth; I felt the left side of my body growing numb, but I was still conscious and saw everything that was going on around me"
As you can see the stereotype of Pole being a criminal, thief, bandit is used by the German here to murder Polish children and pregnant women.The same stereotype of Poles being criminals, thieves, and bandits is used in German tv by a person who is rewarded by German media society. -- Molobo 00:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Bizarre and repugnant racial categorizations were used in WWII to justify the mass murder of Poles. At the very best stereotypes regarding thievery were ancillary to the process just as the "hook-nose" on the Jew was merely crude caricature that is ultimately irrelevant in itself. And yes it's absolutely a red herring and emotional pleading to bring the idea up in regards to a TV commentator in 2005. Get on topic Molobo and God could you address the complaint: why should this not be re-named? Marskell 23:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
"and emotional pleading to bring the idea up in regards to a TV commentator in 2005." TV commentator shouldn't use antipolonism just as he shouldn't use antisemitism.As to renaming the term is used in Polish encyclopedia(as printed in Wielkiej Ilustrowanej Encyklopedii Powszechnej (Suplement Wspolczesny) t.23/1 Wydanej przez Wydawnictwo Gutenberg Print w 1997 r.) so I see no reason for renaming it. -- Molobo 00:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
"according to you POV" They are according to specialists in regards to German-Polish relations.That is not my POV.However If you believe presenting people as bandits and criminals is positive I don't think we can engage in discussion. "but your repeated references to World War II atrocities are diversions." It was a German author that thanked Schmidt that he can again think about Poles as bandits and laugh without needing to be remembered about German aggresion against Poland. See also : http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/98/02/p-witze.htm Wenn Harald Schmidt fur seine Polenwitze mit Medienpreisen �bersch�ttet werde, denke in Deutschland niemand an die drei Millionen Polen und die weiteren drei Millionen polnischen Juden, die die Deutschen im Zweiten Weltkrieg umgebracht haben. -- Molobo 01:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
" differs in kind from a Polish joke on German T.V. in 2005. " Does seem so according to these articles : See also : http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/98/02/p-witze.htm Wenn Harald Schmidt fur seine Polenwitze mit Medienpreisen �bersch�ttet werde, denke in Deutschland niemand an die drei Millionen Polen und die weiteren drei Millionen polnischen Juden, die die Deutschen im Zweiten Weltkrieg umgebracht haben. See also: http://fesportal.fes.de/pls/portal30/docs/FOLDER/IPG/IPG1_2004/ARTKRZEMINSKI.PDF Spaß muss sein. Und – wie Florian Illies6 am Anfang seines Buches bemerkt – Schmidts »Polenwitze« hatten für diese Generation eine befreiende Funktion. Polen war nie ein solches Tabu wie die Juden gewesen, aber als ein »Opfervolk« im Zweiten Weltkrieg und dann im Kriegszustand 1981 unterlag es den Selbstbeschränkungen einer gewissen »political correctness « oder einfach der »guten Erziehung«. Da die Hemmschwelle nie so hoch gewesen war, und die alten Raster der Verachtung gegenüber dem rückständigen Volk und »der polnischen Wirtschaft« weiterhin virulent waren, fiel auch die Umstellung von der »unterdrückten Solidarnosc« auf den »barbarischen Polenmarkt« nicht schwer. Und im Topos der polnischen Autodiebe konnte man unterschwellig sehr leicht die unausgesprochene Assoziation »Volk der Diebe« heraushören: Sie klauen Schlesien, Autos und nun auch deutsche Arbeitsplätze. In der eu sind sie lediglich hinter den Geldern der Nettozahler her, und im Irak wollen sie obendrein als »trojanischer Esel Amerikas« am Krieg gewinnen. Sie spielen sich nur auf und sind nicht einmal imstande, eine vernünftige Automarke auf den Weltmarkt zu bringen. Dies sind vielleicht krass überzeichnete überzeichnete Stimmungslagen, doch keineswegs Projektionen. Die Reserve gegenüber Polens Aufnahme in die eu, die gerade die Eurobarometer in Deutschland anzeigten, wie auch die niedrige Position der Polen auf dem deutschen Thermometer der Sympathie belegen, dass in der deutschen Gesellschaft nach wie vor historisch viel ältere Aversionen gegen den östlichen Nachbarn existieren als die durch die Grenzveränderungen und den »Bevölkerungsaustausch« von 1945 verursachten. Und, was noch wichtiger und bedenklicher ist: Die Selbstkorrektive sind in der deutschen Tradition schwächer als in anderen historisch belasteten Fällen, etwa dem deutsch-französischen, dem deutsch-russischen, deutsch-amerikanischen oder deutsch-israelischen Verhältnis. Care to translate the sentence and add it to the article ? Especially the part about "Volk der Diebe".... -- Molobo 01:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Please translate the article. If you are not willing to I will do it, although my German isn't top quality, perhaps I will need help. However I can already tell you that the article tells that stereotypes about Poles told by Harald led to stereotype of Nation of Thieves and that Germans have much less self-correctnes to Poles then to other nations. -- Molobo 11:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
My dear friend Molobo! Your last comment here shows clearly, that you never saw the Harald-Schmidt-Show! Otherwise you would have recognized, that he made the same jokes with the same correctness with Turkish, Belgian, Danish, Czech people and so on, too! Simply said, what YOU say is completely Bullshit! (Oops, I don't feel sorry for this "Personal Attac" :-) ) Micha.
The reference to the Polish encyclopedia that was brought by Molobo is a strong point in favour of the retaining the article under the title anti-Polonism. Alx-pl D 20:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC) I am very sorry, but the week before and this week I was/am very busy in the real life
I am not following all discussions here, but this recent anon edit strikes me like a vandalism. Shouldn't it be reverted? If so, I'd recommend incorporating recent good faith edits of Sidp into old version it. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes please revert the page to the previous NPOV disputed one (mainly because multiple links, photos have been deleted by the vandal). As to the text content in view of encyclopedia having entry on Antipolonism information it seems necessery to write new version incorporating the rich info and data provided in it.However I would like to have the main structure restored with photos, links and quotes . -- Molobo 12:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Fortunately someone had the courage to re-edit this text to the original version without these Erika-Steinbach- or Harald-Schmidt-lies Molobo and others would like to see in. These Lies have been the only vandalizm in this text, and fortunately they have been removed now. Micha.
Well Micha you don't give up. Perhaps you should create an account rather than sniping from the sidelines.
To repeat there is no Polish Black Legend. You can infer or incidentally analogize one into existence but it makes no more sense than a Nigerian Black Legend or a Mexican Black Legend. The Black Legend is a highly specified idea.
Also, added "academic" before "term." That's as much as we can say in English. Marskell 23:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my last edit was not against you or your Opinion or comments. Just let me explain: on the one hand Molobo called me -and not only me- names on more than one occasion, but on the other hand he does not want to be called e.g. a liar (which he in my opinion is) himself. He was the one who used this method first, and now he removed all my last comments as "personal attacks". Well, if he wants to have an edit war, he can have one. Next time I try to save at least your comments and put it into the re-edited page. Micha.
--- Molobo 23:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
" It is inappropriate as it stood because the Black Legend page makes absolutely no reference to Poland" The Wiki page is not the ultimate authority.Neither it is a scholary work. "and the vast majority of people who understand the term understand it in terms of Spain and Spain alone." This is your POV.Remember Wiki is not an original research. " In practical discourse there is no Polish Black Legend" Again, this is your POV.Remember Wiki is not an original research.-- Molobo 11:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC) "make a properly qualified reference with link" Marskell there was a time when this article was supplied with links and reference for most of it.However it is vandalised on constant basis, right now I am in process of writing a whole new version supplied with links so that it can be entered at any time after vandalisation(btw in old versions the line was supported with resources)-- Molobo 11:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"is hardly my POV" Please bring world wide opinion poll on this.Otherwise its your POV. "Asserting a Polish black legend is like applying Anti-Americanism to Indonesia." Again this is your PoV reflecting your bias towards the topic. "and neither is an academic looking for a catchy book title." That this only a catchy title is again your PoV and rather unfriendly reflection of your bias towards the article.
-- Molobo 11:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"POV but my perfectly reasonable observation " Wiki is not about personal observations.Remember Wiki is not original research. " I left it in but I qualified it properly. One "researcher has suggested" is about as much as you can say" You qualified it wrong.First of all they are several works reaserching this not one. Secondly no a researcher hasn't suggest it but studied.Saying he has suggested implies it doesn't exist and was invented by researches, which serves to push your POV that this only a "catchy title". -- Molobo 11:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"Your use of POV and OR here is badly skewed." I am sorry but my name isn' Dawid Łukasiewicz.Neither did I write Polish Encyclopedia.
"That the Black Legend is associated with Spain is simply a fact Molobo"
Sorry but this is your POV.Black Legend isn't concerned only with Spain. ""There are several works"--when this was brought up previously you referenced one. Where are these several? " Why do you misinform ? I brought to you two scholary works that study the issue "Further, research in the social sciences is necessarily suggestive; there is nothing wrong with my qualification" If you want to publish a book be my guest.However Wiki isn't for original research that you are trying to push.-- Molobo 12:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
" Above, under "Changes" you provided one reference for the Black Legend bit" You misinform.I provided you with two sources the other being Polish Encyclopedia. "you want to assert a generic Polish Black Legend" I am not Dawid Lukasiewicz or makers of Polish Encyclopedia.-- Molobo 13:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
You want to use Google to affirm academic terms ? Anyway it seems you didn't search much : http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6625 The Black Legend against Spain is part of a vast movement started by the enemies of the Faith to destroy the Catholic religion. It is not an isolated case; other Catholic countries like Italy, Ireland and Poland have had their reputations smeared for their adhesion to the Faith. -- Molobo 13:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The term Black Legend is isolated to Spain" Sorry that is your personal view that ignores now at least 3 scholary works. "Of course religious bigotry isn't isolated to Spain" Please refrain from xenophobic comments in the future. "does not assert that term has been applied to these countries" That is your POV.However both another scholary works-Polish Encyclopedia and book by Dawid Lukasiewicz show also that there is a Polish Black Legend. -- Molobo 13:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks Marskell. "and you have no response" I already proved that Black Legend of Poland is mentioned and studied in Polish Encyclopedia and scholary work. "It's been one, several and two at various points" Actually it has always been two, however you have chosen to misinfom by ignoring the Polish Encyclopedia.The third was found during the discussion.There is also a fourth by Jan Nowak but he is a controversial author so I left him. -- Molobo 14:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but it says that Black Legend type prejudices is found towards other cultures.Furthermore you still have to deal with the David Lukasiewcz's book and entry in Polish Encyclopedia.-- Molobo 14:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The article analogizes between prejudice, it does not assert that "Italian Black Legend" or "Polish Black Legend" are matter-of-factly used." That is your opinion.However Dawid Lukasiewicz and Polish Encyclopedia show that Polish Black Legend xists. "research, for instance, has underscored a similarity between the Spanish Black Legend and historical German attitudes toward Poland" Sorry but such attitude isn't claimed to be only German by the sources. -- Molobo 15:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry Marskell but Polish Encyclopedia doesn't limit Polish Black Legend to Germany. "Indeed, show me where the three words, Polish, Black and Legend are strung together" Czarna Legenda Dziejów Polski-Jan Nowak. Dawid Lukasiewicz-Czarna Legenda Polski. http://www.tiger.edu.pl/kolodko/artykuly/Dzis.8.2003.pdf "Historia ma to do siebie, że niekiedy bywa wredna, wpierw bowiem w odniesieniu do niedawnej przeszłości rysuje czarną wizję. Dotyczy to także historii współczesnej. Historycy nazywają to „czarną legendą". W czasach Odrodzenia bardzo czarno rysowano Średniowiecze. W następnej epoce z kolei, bardzo krytycznie pisano o Odrodzeniu. Kiedy w Polsce odbudowywano gospodarkę po zniszczeniach 2. wojny światowej i tworzono system socjalistyczny, nauczano nas w szkole, jak kiepskim systemem była Polska międzywojenna. Tamten okres też więc, zanim doczekał się w miarę rzetelnego opisu, przejść musiał przez swój epizod „czarnej legendy"." -- Molobo 15:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The history of this page indicates this is an accurate description" Please remember Wiki is not original research. -- Molobo 19:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Adding your personal views in the article what is Black Legend and what is not(which btw contradict scholary works) is OR.Sorry. -- Molobo 10:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Talk is confirming the article.However article is not for presenting your private views Marskell. -- Molobo 12:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The google's first hits (I omit Wikipedia mirrors) give
(this is the result of screening of the first 30 google hits). Alx-pl D 10:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC) BTW. this is also an argument to remove the adjective academic. The word anti-Polonism is widely used in the public debate on Polish-Jewish relations (whereas it is hardly used in the public debate on Polish-German relations which was and is currently the main source of the content for the article). Alx-pl D 10:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
"What is the appropriate way to contextualize this term? " Polish Encyclopedia defines antipolonism as hostility towards Poles and Polish state. -- Molobo 23:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
It does not mean two or even four references, Molobo. You want, as I have stated more times than I can count, to insert the Black Legend bit as time of day. It's not time of day. You haul out the POV soapbox any chance you get and all you're doing with this is inserting POV. "Often" means regularly, in common discourse, obvious. There is absolutely nothing obvious about a "Polish Black Legend." Marskell 00:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
'For the uninvolved, it is quite difficult to follow the contorted logic of nationalists' What is your reason for calling editors of the Polish encyclopedia and Dawid Lukasiewicz nationalists ?-- Molobo 11:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I found an interesting article: http://www.orbis-linguarum.net/1999/12_99/VIADRINA.html.
Here is the translated content of the article from the Polish Wikipedia to compare: ( Alx-pl 16:39, 20 November 2005 (UTC)) note: Arbitrarily written by administrator Szwedzki, who reverts any changes to his version
Anti-Polonism (alternatively spelled antipolonism; also, Polonophobia) is a political slogan that describes collectively all sentiments and all kinds of hostility toward Poles. The word anti-Polonism started to occur in Polish right-wing and radical right-wing media in 1990s as an answer to accusations of anti-Semitism done by Jewish circles.
Historic counterpart of anti-Polonism is polakożerstwo (in English - Poles devouring) - a term used in 19th century to describe anti-Polish politics of Otto von Bismarck.
Currently, the grounds of anti-Polonism are not rasist and it has no support in any organised ideology. The journalists, politics and priests use that term in the context of events that signify sentiment towards Poles (for instance in the context of Polish jokes, presentation of negative stereotypes of Poles in foreign media or historical misstatements like Polish death camps).
Some right-wing journalists, when they refer to anti-Polonism, incorporate conspiracy theories which link the historical persecution of the Polish nation with the incidents of present times. According to these theories anti-Polonism manifested throughout the history in different ways both in acts of individual persons and in organised actions ordained by governments of states or organisations. The actions ranged from propagation of motivated by anti-Polonism aversion for Poles to felonious acts the goal of which was to suppress Polish state and physical extermination of the Polish nation. The groups which are currently most frequently accussed for anti-Polonism include Jewish circles together with German and Russian politics.
Polish wikipedia is very poorly done. Perhaps you should translate the entry from Polish Encyclopedia that gives a more detailed information.-- Molobo 01:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Certainly-if only you will find a scholary source confirming this.As of now perhaps Alx-pl could translate the version from Polish encyclopedia about anti-polonism, which is quite different from Polish wiki.Of course you would have hard time arguing that the term is invention of right-wingers in Poland and used only by them, as it is used by Gazeta Wyborcza-a rather liberal newspaper [22]. I am sure they abuse the term, but it isn't limited only to their line of thinking. For example Gross cites in one of his books Jan Józef Lipski using the term and condeming both antisemitism and anti-polonism. Lipski was known for criticising Polish nationalism and xenophobia so as you see the term isn't the domain of far right. -- Molobo 12:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh and Alx-pl perhaps you would add information from this article : [23] Od wielu miesięcy toczy się w Rosji operacja medialna opisująca przeszłość naszych wzajemnych stosunków. (...) Kampania "polityki historycznej" wobec Polski zaczęła się parę miesięcy przed rocznicą zakończenia II wojny światowej. (...) Sens przekazu był jasny: Polska jest zawsze niepewnym sojusznikiem, w wojnie jej rola była dwuznaczna, a pretensje wysuwane przez Polaków (Katyń, Powstanie Warszawskie, pakt Ribbentrop-Mołotow) to rodzaj agresji propagandowej. W ramach tej kampanii były oficer Smiersz porównywał sytuację w Polsce w 1945 r. do obecnej sytuacji "naszych chłopców" w Czeczenii, zaś autorka poczytnej strony [internetowej] pisała o AK jako sojuszniku hitlerowców itp. Zdumiewa to, że operacja po tej rocznicy nie ustała, lecz dalej toczy się w najlepsze. Ostatnio można było przeczytać, że to Polska prowokowała hitlerowskie Niemcy do wojny oraz że "bojownicy polskiej Armii Krajowej w mieście Mińsk Mazowiecki wyrżnęli nasz szpital, zabijając 200 rannych i cały personel (kobiecy)". Reszty nie przytaczam przez wzgląd na wrażliwość czytelników. Jedynym narodem, który jest przedstawiany w równie negatywnym świetle w rosyjskich mediach, są "czeczeńscy terroryści". -- Molobo 12:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
You should translate this stuff into English when you are using the English Wikipedia. Volkerfreund 19:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Germany, Poland and Europe: Conflict, Co-Operation and Europeanisation by Marcin Zaborowski - Manchester University Press Anti-polonism in (West) Germany although as not decisive as anti-Germanism in Poland, also came to be a significant factor in in the construction of Bonn's official policies towards Warsaw. page 34.
You can read the rest on google print. -- Molobo 12:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
As for citation of the "hen is not a bird" http://users.erols.com/mietek/test/show_news.php?id=news120500.html FROM UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED: 8/11/00 GEORGIE ANNE GEYER by Georgie Anne Geyer WHEN HENS FLY: WARSAW TAKES WING TOWARD THE WEST
WARSAW, Poland -- When Russia looks westward these days, it seems to pass right over Poland. Russian leaders don't even seem to see that substantial land mass it has fought over so many times throughout history and which they have cynically regarded as merely a "corridor" -- theirs -- to Germany and to Europe. Somehow Moscow cannot bear the thought that Warsaw is now part of the West.
But it was not always that way. Historically, the Russians have considered Poland, without second thought, to be nothing but a part of imperial Mother Russia. A favorite refrain was "A hen is not a bird; it can't fly." Poland was the hen.
As for Molotov using Pilsudski's statements-objective reference please. -- Molobo 15:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Poliakam, panam, sobakam sobachaia smert!. The quote is from Jan T. Gross. Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia. -- Molobo 15:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've already stated what often means: regular, time-of-day, taken for granted, easily understood. These do not apply to a putative Polish Black Legend.
I am only entering what is stated in scholary work (Lukasiewicz's book )if you have a scholary source that disputes what Lukasiewicz writes, please present it.-- Molobo 18:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
This is not my opinion Marskell but research made by Lukasiewicz, please provide something that disputes this research. Also its mentioned not only in Lukasiewicz book. -- Molobo 18:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about ? Britannica doesn't deal with Poland or books that mention Polish black legend.-- Molobo 17:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I toned down the article-Samoobrona btw is defined as leftist in its ideology so it didn't fit "far right" definition.Its already mentioned that symbolism used in past persecution of Poles is exploited by such parties-mentioning it three times and under badge from concentration camp seems improper and I believe gives dishonour to people who were forced to wear it. Of course mentioning it is ok with me but not under the badge. Information on NOP or Szczerbiec should be provided in article on them or antisemitism in Poland. -- Molobo 17:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I know for a fact that the term in Poland is almost exclusively used in the context of right wing anti-semitic and anti-europeist propaganda. Information about some of the groups that make this use of the term belongs here "and" in anti-semitism in Poland. I am suprised that a user of Wikipedia supports the same use of the term done by Adam Gmurczyk (president of Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski) at texts like this: [24]. Alexbulg 21:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC) I also think that all the historical part should be removed and maybe placed at an independent article, since this issue is about a modern right wing concept, not a historical once. Having this information here is in according to the ideas of said extremist groups. Alexbulg 21:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I am glad to see the article move in a saner direction, i.e. shedding light on the development and political usage of the Polish word antypolonizm, instead of proclaiming some universal anti-Polish impulse behind the very disparate persecutions Poles have suffered at various points in history. Not surprisingly, not everyone shares my opinion: Brisvegas complained that "this article was increasingly focussed on the anti-Semitism of right-wing Polish groups than the actual phenomenon of anti-Polonism."
The trouble is, there simply is no "actual phenomenon" commonly known as anti-Polonism. Nobody seriously disputes that Poles have suffered repressions in history, and that negative stereotypes about them persist. However, as a concept unifying all these very different repressions and stereotypes, antypolonizm is a dubious coinage. Listing Bismarck's anti-Catholic Kulturkampf, wartime atrocities against Poles and "Polish jokes" under the headline "anti-Polonism" makes about as much sense as it would to list the English conquest of Ireland, the Potato Famine and "no Irish need apply" signs under the headline "anti-Irishism". At best, such a definition is theory-building or original research, which simply is off limits for Wikipedia.
As mentioned during the VfD, the English word "anti-Polonism" is not in general use, whereas the Polish word antypolonizm is virtually a monopoly of said "right-wing Polish groups". Perhaps significantly, it is not even listed by the most comprehensive Polish dictionary, the Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN.
Typically, the word is used as follows (from the forum of a Polish talk radio network): "There is no anti-Semitism in Poland, this is an invention of the Jewish population, which occupies high-ranking positions in the administration and government. There is, however, anti-Polonism. The Jews hate the Polish nation and are trying to destroy it at every turn." This aptly describes the vicious circle of accusations of Polish anti-Semitism and Jewish anti-Polonism.
I found only one piece of evidence that uses the word antypolonizm in a similar fashion as "our" article: "Antypolonizm" in the "modern supplement" volume of the pre-war Wielka ilustrowana encyklopedia powszechna Gutenberga, a facsimile edition of which was published in the 1990s. Subtitled "Activities aiming at the destruction of the Polish state and nation", the article boldy covers everything from remarks in Bishop Thietmar of Merseburg's chronicle from 1012, via the Moravian educator Comenius who had welcomed The Deluge, the usual suspects Marx and Lenin, right down to Steven Spielberg's "lies" in Schindler's List. In line with the term's political connotation, the article culminates in the conspiracy theory that "after the 1953 reparation agreement between West Germany and Israel, activities aimed at denigrating the image of the Poles (in relation to the Jews during WW II) and at the same time white-washing the Germans became increasingly frequent". The article is hosted on a clearly anti-Semitic "patriotic" hate site, which also declares that "The Jews use the term 'anti-Semitism' whenever Poles defend themselves against anti-Polonism. They also have an interest [read: business interest] in anti-Polonism". This speaks volumes about the people who coined the word anti-Polonism and use it with particular gusto.
In its current version per Brisvegas, the article states that "anti-Polonism" has "been studied in scholarly works by Polish, German and Russian researchers", and that it "has entered mainstream academic usage to describe a variety of behaviours and ideologies influenced by an irrational hatred of Poles." I vehemently challenge this: I am not aware of any works by "Polish, German and Russian researchers" which would employ the term "anti-Polonism" (either as a catch-all term in the way the article suggests, or specifically referring to "Jewish anti-Polonism") and at the same time deserve the label "scholarly" (which obviously excludes works by the likes of Ryszard Bender or Jerzy Robert Nowak). Likewise, the claim about "mainstream academic usage" appears to be created out of thin air.
It is about time we made a clear distinction between the concept of anti-Polonism and the reality it allegedly describes. The article should describe the concept, but without adopting the dubious ideological interpretation of reality by of those who mostly use it. -- Thorsten1 17:51, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Thorsten: http://www.episkopat.pl/?a=dokumentyKEP&doc=dialog 'Trzeba uczynić wszystko, aby odbudować i pogłębiać chrześcijańską solidarność z ludem Izraela po to, aby nigdy i nigdzie podobne nieszczęście nie mogło się znowu wydarzyć. Trzeba również skutecznie przezwyciężać wszelkie przejawy antyżydowskości, antyjudaizmu (czyli niechęci wyrosłej z fałszywie rozumianej nauki Kościoła) i antysemityzmu (tj. nienawiści zrodzonej z pobudek narodowościowych, lub rasowych), jakie miały i jeszcze mają miejsce wśród chrześcijan. Oczekujemy, że z równą determinacją przezwyciężany będzie antypolonizm. ' You have also links to Russian work on polonophobia in the article. -- Molobo 18:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
"This speaks volumes about the people who coined the word anti-Polonism and use it with particular gusto. "
Jan Józef Lipski or Jerzy Turowicz ? http://www.mateusz.pl/czytelnia/jt-bilet.htm Są Polacy, którzy lubią usprawiedliwiać antysemityzm antypolonizmem środowisk żydowskich. To jest zupełnie błędne postawienie sprawy, bo antypolonizm jest skutkiem antysemityzmu. Antypolonizm jest nieraz krzywdzący i niesprawiedliwy, ale jest wynikiem tego, że rodzice czy dziadkowie Żydów, urodzonych w Ameryce, którzy przyjechali tam z Polski i przywieźli swoje doświadczenia, byli ofiarami tego antysemityzmu. Pogromy, dyskryminacja, niechęć na uniwersytetach -- oni ten bagaż ze sobą przywieźli i on w reakcji powoduje antypolonizm, więc tego nie można stawiać na równi. -- Molobo 18:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sun.rhbnc.ac.uk/Music/Conferences/00-9-pol.html
Polonophilia and Polonophobia of the Russians Bloomington, September 2000
Call for Papers
Polonophilia and Polonophobia of the Russians
This conference is scheduled for September 16-17, 2000 at the Indiana
University Bloomington campus. We invite proposals for papers on any
aspect of the history of Russia's alternating attraction to and repulsion
of Poland's cultural expression. Topics may include, but need not be
limited to, contributions of Polish creativity to Russian culture and the
reactive use by Russian artists and writers of Polish expression as a foil
for creating a self-conscious Russian cultural identity. The conference is
jointly sponsored by the Indiana University Russian and East European
Institute, the Indiana University Polish Studies Center, and the
University of Wisconsin Madison Department of Slavic Languages and
Literatures. Co-directors are Bozena Shallcross, Indiana University; David
Ransel, Indiana University and Alexander Dolinin, University of Wisconsin
at Madison.
--
Molobo
18:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I only deleted your attempts to describe my personal views and persona.Please concentrate on article and don't use the talk page for personal remarks about other people. -- Molobo 02:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"You know, I really expected you to cite Jan Józef Lipski as a witness" "Anti-Polonism is not morally any better than anti-Semitism or anti-Ukrainism." Jan Jozef Lipski. My point was to show that the term is used by various people. -- Molobo 19:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I only delete personal remarks which aren't related to the article. -- Molobo 02:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Intellectuals, Socialism, and Dissent: The East German Opposition and Its Legacy by John C Torpey
Page 81/82 Perhaps most significant for understanding the reaction of the East German citizenry to the earthquake rumbling through Poland during the second half of 1980 was the SED's blatant exploitation of traditional German anti-Polish feeling.In describing East German's reaction to Solidarność one interviewee noted that "this rather difficult[German-Polish] relationship played an important role. People say the Poles don't know how to work...The Party succeeded in developing a social psychology that was anti-polish. Wittenberg pastor Friedrich Schorlemmer who in the fall of 1989 would go on to help the ill fated citizens initiative Democratic Awakening, raised the matter of regime's exploitation of the older ressentiments towards the Poles.This tactic had become especially apparent in the rejuvenation of "Polish Jokes", some of which remained listeners of the spread of such jokes under the Nazis. -- Molobo 20:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
A lot of this discussion centres on the treatment of Poles by Germans and ultimately by Nazis. What I would like to know is: was the persecution of Poles a part of the more general persecution of Slavs, or were Poles singled out as worse than say Russians, Czechs, Slovenians, Serbs, etc.? Zocky 02:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The problem Zocky is that in contrast to Ukrainians or Czechs, Poles were viewed as inferior by German culture long before Nazism existed.And this traditional hatred and contempt was enforced eve n more strongly by Nazism.-- Molobo 13:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
For example see : htttp://www.oslo2000.uio.no/program/papers/s18/s18-blackbourn.pdf http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=1724846635492 http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/902/223books.html The stated aim of this scholarly study is to trace back the negative stereotypes of Poles entrenched in German historiography and popular culture ever since Prussia and Russia engineered the partitions of Poland in the eighteenth century. The treatise begins with a survey of authors and readers of the Prussian statistical publications in the period under review. We learn that the credibility of Beamtentumsliteratur (studies written by petty officials in Prussia) was often marred by corruption and dishonesty of said officials, as well as by their lack of proficiency in Polish. The data they collected were also marred by incompetence, ignorance and a classically hostile attitude toward the Other--in this case, toward the Poles. The writers' generalizing helped to distort the picture: whenever they did not like something, they were likely to say "as is always the case in Poland;" but when they encountered a city they liked (Poznan), they commented that "the city was built according to German standards." German officials routinely compared Polish peasant farmers to the wild inhabitants of "Kamchatka and the West Indies," or to "Roman slaves and American Indians." Such scholars and travelers as Johann Georg Forster compared Poles to "cattle in human form" (in SŠmtliche Schriften). A certain Lichtenberg (said to be Forster's friend) wrote that Poland was inhabited by "landowning despots, dirty Jews and plica" [Weichselzopf, or koltun]. The expression "German cockroaches" must have entered the English language owing to the similarly brutal descriptions of German immigrants to America by those who came earlier from the British Isles.
Among the specific complaints of these official record keepers were the prevalence of Catholicism among Poles (it was considered scandalous), low level of education, consumerism and vanity of the Polish landowners, poverty and servitude of the Polish peasantry, and the greed of Polish Jews who were seen as Poland's "third estate" and whose numerosity in Poland (by comparison to Prussia) irritated the German officials. üukasiewicz's conclusions are that the Prussian officials created a taxonomy within which persons of Polish nationality were perceived as inferior and in need of Prussian tutelage. -- Molobo 13:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[27] Komisja walczy z antypolonizmem -- Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=1724846635492 More dangerous than an entertaining, if somewhat condescending, fascination with quaint folkloric customs was the tendency to link customs with biological characteristics, a topic explored in Chapter Eight, "Peopling Eastern Europe, Part II: The Evidence of Manners and the Measurements of Race." While Herder was reflecting on the Slavs, Fichte was teaching in Poland and writing negative, racist comments about the Poles. Polish women were slovenly and with a stronger sex drive than Germans (p. 335); Poland was full of wild animals, wild people, and Jews. A racist diatribe published in 1793 (Joachim Christoph Friedrich Schulz's Journey of a Livonian from Riga to Warsaw) was republished in 1941 after the Nazis had conquered Poland, reflecting a trend among German scholars from the eighteenth into the twentieth century to perceive, in the difference between Germany and Poland, a boundary between civilization and barbarism, high German Kultur and "primitive Slavdom" (p. 336). -- Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I am intimately familiar with the subject as I have researched it for University, and right now there is majoritary consensus that no such thing as Anti-Polonism in the sense given by the article exist outside the ideology of nationalist and/or right wing Polish parties. In its current form, the article would be approved by Adam Gmurczyk. I am also curious to know why Molobo has reverted facts that I have properly sourced with embeded links and explained at the Talk Page. Several undisputed facts like the term is not included at Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN have been removed by Molobo with no explanation. As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists. I'll wait for an explanation before re adding the information that you questionably removed. Alexbulg 15:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Several undisputed facts like the term is not included at Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN have been removed by Molobo with no explanation You can put that information in the article.Then I will put information that the word is found in National Library of Poland in Dictionary of subjects.You will put that it is rarely used in research.I will put a dozen or so scholary works as example that still, it is used. What will we achieve in doing that ? You can't dispute that the word exists.
As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists. You claim that no prejudice against Poles exist ? That is an argument defeated easly. If you would read the archive like I asked you, you will multiple evidence of modern bias towards Poles. Shall I give you book titling Poland a "hyeana" ? Or saying that "every Pole should be shot with contempt" ? Shall I give you a link to Gazeta Wyborcza with article on "antipolish ideology" being used ? -- Molobo 15:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And please read before editing-they are two books by German researches on antipolonismus-yet you set it as "need citation". The citation is easly found by scrolling down by sources.Not to mention your naming of Russian research as "being from XIX century" while it is from modern author speaks negatively about your contributions. -- Molobo 15:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
But it isn't from XIX researcher.Furthermore a simple reading of links will take to Gazeta Wyborcza which has an article on modern usage of antipolish ideology in Russia. -- Molobo 16:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Equalling Polish jokes with Nazi persecution is the typical speech of the NOP, not that of scholars. It seems you have limitied knowledge about this :
Intellectuals, Socialism, and Dissent: The East German Opposition and Its Legacy by John C Torpey [28]
The Mirth of Nations by Christie Davies [29]
Both books mention Polish Jokes as originating in Nazi Germany.-- Molobo 16:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Nope, just that the jokes have German origin and are based on racist stereotype(similar to claiming that Poles have to think in certain way because they are Poles). And the book shows that reason for their spreas may have been the growing number of German emmigrants.Not my words. Are the jokes antipolish-of course even if their users don't consider them as such they led to stereotyping Poles as stupid and inferior. It also seems that they can led to discrimination at work : [30]
I rather doubt however that American society has nowadays a strong anti-Polish bias.
But you say that it is a demonstration of Anti-Polonism. So basically its common use (even on movies) in the U.S., according to the logic you display at the article, points exactly otherwise. And that's more or less the same logic displayed at You forgot Poland. Sorry, but your arguments are severely flawed, and you contradict yourself time and time again.
-- Molobo 16:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
So according to that logic, you are clearly saying that German and Russian societies are not necesarily Anti-Polish. I didn't mention neither society in the above discussion.Of course judging by sources and resources we can't even compare the small amount of prejudice in USA towards Poles to traditional beliefs stereotyping negatively Poles in German or Russian cultures. -- Molobo 16:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits by User:Molobo [31] [32] show an undenyable trait of Anti-Semitism, and thus I recommend this article to be read with utmost care regarding the numerous POVs it contains of his authory. I also suggest extreme caution when reading further contributions by this user. Alexbulg 16:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop from using insults.Portaying a nation as having inbreed natural traits is racism of the worst kind, regardles of who is using it against whom. -- Molobo 17:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It was already explained to you that there already exists a page for antisemitism in Poland, where your contributions are more fitting. -- Molobo 17:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I already explained you that information about persecution of Jews is fitting into antisemitism article. -- Molobo 17:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
(The term) was frequently used as a diversion to deflect directed to Poles accusations of anti-Semitism which were expressed by certain Jewish groups. In what way does this fit in Anti-Semitism and not here? By deleting it, it pretty much looks like you're trying to hide the existence of modern Anti-Semitism in Poland, which is an anti-semitic attitude in itself. Alexbulg 17:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but I never deleted it but changed its structure as it is presented to show the detailed situation.In fact your accusations are absurd because I was the first to enter the information that extremist circles abuse the term, and created chapter on misuse of the term. -- Molobo 17:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
No you were not. You created only the chapter and put it to the bottom to hide it.
Ekhem I didn't hide.It was quite visible to any user who would read the text. -- Molobo 17:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yet you deleted all connection between the term and the complaint of Jewsih circles [34]. Please leave your own personal views outside of Wikipedia and let relevant information stay where it belongs, even if it contradicts your views. In fact your accusations are absurd because I was the first to enter the information that extremist circles abuse the term Absurd and false claim: I was the first to do it. In your version, no mention to right wing politics existed. You merely moved it to a different section to suit your own POV of presenting separately the "misuse" of the term to an alleged "reality" that doesn't exist. The term is basically used by said groups, and sometimes (rarely) used outside of them, not the other way around as you presented. So stop hiding relevant and connected information regarding the conections between the users of the term and his Anti-Semitic views, unless you support said Anti-Semitic views. Alexbulg 18:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I put it in the chapter of the misuse of the term. Please leave your own personal views outside of Wikipedia I advise you to do the same. In your version, no mention to right wing politics existed Since they are both leftist and ring wing I see no reason to claim that such views are only part of one political side."So stop hiding relevant and connected information regarding the conections between the users of the term and his Anti-Semitic views, unless you support said Anti-Semitic views." Again there is a page on Antisemitism-you are welcome to edit it to your views, since you seem to be interested more in Antisemitism then Antipolonism.-- Molobo 18:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The matters have a point of connection here, and thus as Alx-pl has said, claiming that it doesn't belong here is only your personal POV. Your attempt to separate them looks pretty much like a diversion to hide every trace of criticism towards anything related to Poland. Alexbulg 18:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Your constant accusations seem make me view critical your neutrality-if the term is misused it should be mentioned in specific chapter, and not spread throughout the whole article. -- Molobo 18:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And your constant diversions of the point and omission to address critical issues make me be critical towards your neutrality too. I said many times, like other users (many) at this page that the term is not misused; rather, it is almost always used by extremists. If you feel that the rule is in fact the exception, that may only mean that you support the sense of the term assigned by the users of the rule, i.e. the sense given by NOP and the likes. Alexbulg 18:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
All Polish parties and Polish Catholic Church are extremists ? Thank you for showing your POV, but I don't think it should be included. -- Molobo 18:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Those are the rare uses :-) They don't make it a key part of their speech, like extremists do, which is undenyable and has been repeatedly mentioned at this talk page. If that's "my POV", it is also that of nearly every other user who has posted here. On the contrary, your own POV, is only supported by you. Alexbulg 19:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC) Those are the rare uses :-) Those are the important and official uses. "On the contrary, your own POV, is only supported by you" No it is supported by Decleration of Polish Catholic Church, and Polish Parliement Comission for Contacts with Abroad, various scholary works, Jan Józef Lipski etc. -- Molobo 19:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This may be of interest for editors here. Alx-pl D 20:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?kat=1356&wid=8128597&rfbawp=1135120771.499&ticaid=1c19 Polski deputowany do Parlamentu Europejskiego Marcin Libicki (PiS) zamierza zwrócić się do niemieckiego ministerstwa ds. rodziny, seniorów, kobiet i młodzieży z prośbą o interwencję w przypadkach dyskryminowania polskich rodziców przez niemieckie urzędy - poinformował w Berlinie doradca polskiego eurodeputowanego Norbert Napieraj.
Napieraj oraz drugi współpracownik Libickiego, Szymon Szynkowski vel Sęk, rozmawiali wcześniej z przedstawicielami niemieckiego ministerstwa oraz ambasady polskiej. Libicki kieruje komisją petycji Parlamentu Europejskiego.
Jak powiedział dziennikarzom Napieraj, do komisji docierają sygnały od Polaków mieszkających w Niemczech, wskazujące na dyskryminowanie polskich rodziców z małżeństw mieszanych. Grupa rodziców skierowała w tej sprawie petycję do komisji. http://www.nowydzien.pl/nowydzien/1,70091,3084887.html
-- Molobo 23:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I reworded the lead a bit...but the rest of the article is still...crap. I started rewriting the next section, but it needs to be almost completely scrapped and started over, this time in English. Also, what is this persistent harping about "Polish death camps"? The only thing I can imagine is that the Poles who are griping about this usage have a very poor grasp of English and fail to understand that it means "death camps in Poland", and that no native English speaker anywhere is stupid enough to think it means "death camps set up by Poles". What this reeks of is Polish-POV-pushing--reinterpreting English usage according to Polish linguistic norms, and then crying "victim!", when, in fact, the entire problem is a failure to understand the original. All your base indeed. Tom e r talk 00:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
"Bismarck and the "Polish Question." Speech to the Lower House of the Prussian Parliament, January 28, 1886. http://h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/speech.html "The intention here is to stifle criticism of an increasingly rigorous anti-Polish government policy, justifying it as an entirely reasonable response to Polish provocation." - Otto von Bismark 72.1.195.4
72.1.195.4 - This is a Public Library computer. -
72.1.195.4
That's the first three paragraphs. Do I have to do this for the entire article? Tom e r talk 00:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh hello, me again...I nearly forgot about this gem from the lead...I wasn't sure what to do with it:
It could be removed since it dates back to attempt to delete the article based on allegation that the word doesn't exist. In order to disproved it several research articles have been found(German,English, Russian) that used. The whole indroductory sentence was made to counter those attempts of deletation.Curiously although research papers are given in sources somebody still puts citation needed. Of course the article is vandalised so often its hard to make it surivive.I stoped being interested when it was changed to "polish conspiracy trying to hide polish anti-semitism". I doubt the article is salvageble. -- Molobo 11:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the quote:
As discussed in the Times Literary Supplement:
Indeed, a significant proportion of Polish citizenry remains cocooned in myths of "traditional Polish tolerance" (largely true in the multi-ethnic Kingdom of Poland centuries ago, not much in evidence subsequently) and of Poland as "Christ among nations"-- a chosen people, singularly virtuous and ready to redeem the world in the name of "your and our freedom." For them, anything perceived as a slur on the good name of their country arouses passionate rebuttals and charges of malevolence and "anti-Polonism". In January l994 a young correspondent of Gazeta Wyborcza, Michal Cichy, reported on the case of about 40 Jews killed by a group of Polish fighters during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising. The article, which in no way implied that the insurgents at large committed such outrages, elicited an orgy of protests. A prominent historian, Tomasz Strzembosz, accused Cichy of practicing a "distinct type of racism," and charged his boss, Adam Michnik, of "cultivating a species of tolerance that is absolutely intolerant of antisemitism yet regards anti-Polonism and anti-goyism [sic] as something altogether natural." (Scholars have since then documented many other murders of Jews committed by soldiers of the underground Home Army.) -- Abraham Blumberg, Murder Most Foul, TLS, March 2 2001
The quote is inaccurate and misleading-Cichy has long time ago apologised for making the article seem to indicate Home Army was responsible. The thesis made in the quote is already stated in the article, and the last line of the quote is disputable. -- Molobo 11:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Still an object of propaganda. Guess I'll have to deal with the article as soon as I've more time again (or if Molobo should change his aims in Wikipedia). Sciurinæ 16:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The following quotes removed as irrelevant.
mikka (t) 18:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The first one is a stereotype of Poles being thieves (I am sorry to hear you are under the influence of the stereotype) The second denies Poland sovereignty, and tries to portay it as part of Russia.-- Molobo 18:34, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"The stereotype has its grounds. " I am sure Germans and Russians don't rob people or commit crimes like those Poles...
"Or you are going to claim that equal number of stolen cars landed in France? " Actually they were stolen by Russian gangs and landed in Russia from what I know. Yet there is no German saying that "Your car is in Russia." -- Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Sovereighty: So what? It (i.e., absence of sov..ty) was a historical fact." Claiming Poland doesn't have right to being independent and isn't foreign is antipolish sentiment.
For Russification and persecution of Poles in Russian occupied Poland as well as negative views of Poles in Russian society(including Pogroms of Poles) and ideology see relevant links and sources in the article.-- Molobo 19:41, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
"Russian peasants (a source of all Russian folklore) did not persecute Poles in Poland" That would be very difficult because they were scarcely any Russian peasents on the territory of Poland, the main Russian population were soldiers and tsars administration. However in Russia persecution of Poles and negative stereotypes of them existed contrary to your belief, from link in the main article(I urge you to read it and links before commenting): http://www.acls.org/crn/network/ebook_gatagova_paper2.doc "In Russian national consciousness, the image of the Pole as one from a foreign religion was formed long ago. The Pole's everyday behavior and his clothes were perceived as signs of his Catholic affiliation. Moreover, the Catholic was associated with dark powers. Because in the folk sphere the reflection of historical reality is very often transferred into the unconscious level, the complex, centuries-long history of Russian –Polish coexistence have "accumulated" a great mass of myths and legends. These unceasingly feed the dangerously antagonistic relations between the two peoples. Here are some small examples of folk creativity expressing negative stereotypes from one side: "The Polock is a cursed soul" "cursed unbelievers" "dishonest Polocks."" " Anti-polish sentiment gripped the peasant masses to a lesser extent, than it did the educated classes. However, in the common people also, Polonophobia was very noticeable. In any case, when a wave of fires swept over the western provinces of the empire in 1865 (soon after the rebellion), many anonymous letters and various kinds of rumors arose about the crafty schemes of the Poles. From all areas, mass accusations of arson poured out against the Poles. Their motivations seemed unconvincing. Nevertheless. all the "accusers" agreed that it was essential to severely/cruelly cut off the "criminal intentions" of yesterday's insurgent rebels. Here is one of many examples: in 1865, in Novoarkhangelsk settlement in Kherson province, a few insignificant fires too place. Local authorities with the total support of the population placed the blame for what had happened on two Poles: the officer Leshchinsky (who was on indefinite leave) and his fifteen-year-old son. In September of 1866 a major fire burned about 600 houses in the city of Serdobsk in Saratov province; there also, exiled Poles were found to be "guilty." They were saved from violent reprisals only by speedy transit by urgent convoy to another place. A later inquiry revealed the Poles had absolutely no involvement in the setting of the fires. In Saratov itself, something resembling the "Doctor's Plot" was initiated. The following very serious accusation was directed at three doctors of Polish decent who had worked in the Alexander Hospital: "The treatment of lower ranking officials has turned out to be completely careless and even intentionally incorrect, following the dangerous way of thinking of the Polish doctors Krasovsky, Rudkovsky, and Malakhovsky, the antagonistic feelings of whom towards the Russians have aroused the censure of military authorities and local society." The fears of Polish spies, arsonists and poisoners that was being whipped up by rumor aroused the residents of Moscow to form a home [national] guard (!). Multiple manifestations of Polonophobia were noted even in private life. For example, in Petersburg, the wife of the collegiate assessor Iurevich demanded that her husband be separated from her four minor children, asserting that her spouse "as a Pole tries to develop in them enemy feelings towards Russians."
The say that Poland isn't foreign is justification of Russia's conquest of Poland, Russification and denial of existance of Polish nationality and culture. -- Molobo 10:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.kremlin.ru/eng/text/speeches/2005/02/22/2038_type82916_84445.shtml
This article does not contain words "Poland" or "polish", hence irrelevant to anti-polonism. It does say about Molotv-ribbentrop Pact, so what?
mikka
(t)
-
As for the people who want to or attempt to rewrite history, to disparage the importance of this event and the important of the Soviet Union and the Red Army, the Soviet Army, in the victory over Nazism, we understand the events that this is connected with. For example, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact is often mentioned, which resulted in a pact between Soviet Russia, the Soviet Union and Hitler’s Germany, and the subsequent annexation of the Baltic States.
What can one say about this? Everything needs to be seen in the context of historic events. And I would ask you to return to the events of September 1938, when agreements were made between Nazi Germany and western European countries, which later went down in history as the “Munich pact”.
I would also remind you that these agreements were signed by the western allies: Daladier, I believe, from France and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, and on the other side by Mussolini and Hitler himself.
The Soviet-German document was signed on a much lower level – on the level of foreign ministers – one year later, in response to the treaty signed by the western countries, which is now called the “Munich pact”. I would also remind you – and for you as Slovaks, this is probably especially important: as a result of the Munich pact, Czechoslovakia was handed over to Nazi Germany, and the western partners, as it were, showed Hitler where he should go to fulfil his growing ambitions – to the East. To protect its interests and security on its western borders, the Soviet Union signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with Germany.
If we look at the problem in this context, it looks quite different. And I would recommend new historians, or rather those who want to rewrite history, to learn to read books before they rewrite or write them. Please stick to the topic of the article: existing or alleged anti-Polonism. Some people are kind of busy here to read long easays. mikka (t) 19:26, 21 September 2005 (UTC) If one justifies a pact of aggression against Poland and Polish people(that led to murder of 6milion Polish citizens) as selfdefence its certainly antipolish-and was reported as such by Polish media. -- Molobo 10:39, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Second link:
http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/metroon/1,0,2762689.html " Argunowa wyjaśnia, że Rosja podczas rozbiorów nie zajęła żadnych etnicznie polskich terytoriów, lecz przywróciła w swe władanie ruskie ziemie wchodzące w skład wczesnośredniowiecznej Rusi" Argunowa explains that Russia during the Partitions Russia didn't take ethnic polish territories but reclaimed into its rule Russian territories that were part of early medieval Rus.-- Molobo 19:13, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
As you know Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was aimed against Poland, and led to massacres of Polish population. Furthermore it was series of treaties also directed against Poles : " http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/sesupp1.htm
The undersigned plenipotentiaries, on concluding the German Russian Boundary and Friendship Treaty, have declared their agreement upon the following:
Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose.
Moscow, September 28,1939.
For the Government of the German Retch:
J. RIBBENTROP
By authority of the Government of the U.S.S.R.:
W. MOLOTOV "
The claim that Poland was just part of Russia is obvious antipolish statement and I don't think there is anything confusing about it. -- Molobo 10:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Temporary I excluded this parts into this talk-page, because:
1. This is an encyclopedia. And not a listing of individuals and every irrelevant individual cases happened in Germany against Polish. Primarily an encyclopedia should only describe a subject.
2. There do not exit any official reprisals by the German State against Polish or polish citizen in (todays) Germany.
Funny ? Yes since if you would read the previous talk you would know we were talking about several cases.The article you source has certain bias I am afraid and takes sides. Molobo
==== Anti-Polonism in Germany ====
{{Sectfact}}{{POV-section}}
Antipolish sentiments persist in Germany.
===== Rudi Pawelka =====
Poland is accused by some groups of having caused World War II. Rudi Pawelka the president of the Preußische Treuhand and the Territorial Association of Silesia in his speech made in Nuremberg blamed the outburst of the war on, in his opinion, acts of aggression committed by Poles during the period 1918-1938.
===== German courts and Polish language and culture =====
German courts have not only forbidden divorced Polish-speaking parents to teach their children Polish, but also voiced objections to raising them in Polish culture, claiming that to do so would be harmful to their development. [4], [5]. In addition they have been cases were Polish workers have been ordered by their employers to talk in German during their private time outside of work.
===== German media's portrayal of Poland =====
Another example of anti-Polish bias in the German media is the "Harald Schmidt Show." The highlights of this extremely popular program are insulting "jokes" about Poles, Polish culture and Poland. Harald Schmidt, who exploits antipolish views and stereotypes that a few decades earlier accompanied German crimes of genocide against the Polish people, such as supposed inferior intellect or natural criminality of Poles, has received the Bambi viewers' choice award, the Grimme Award, the Golden Camera, and the Golden Lion as best show host.
===== Florian Illies =====
Florian Illies, a former journalist with the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung and best-selling author, also cashes in on a clear anti-Polish bias, with jokes on the Polish language and cleaners. Incidentally, Illies actively supported a motion to reanimate name the name of "Preußen" (Prussia) for a new German federal state to be formed by a merger of the capital Berlin with Brandenburg; hostility towards Poland had been one of the political cornerstones of historical Prussia [6].
===== German constitution and politics =====
German constitution grants German citizenship to Polish-born persons if their ancestors were Germans citizens living on German territory as of 1937. In addition radical German organisations expressing anti-Polish views(blaming Poles for WWII), are visited on regular basis by leading CDU and CSU politicians [7]
I think we should discuss about the relevance of this segment and if we should put it in a changed up form back to the article. It make a view and image about Germany that still isn´t true. Jonny84 23:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Moved from above, I think the following should be deleted until sourced:
Further, it is never asserted that such policies (if in fact they are policies) differ substantially from the treatment given Turks, Arabs etc. Are the Poles singled out or this a general tendency toward homogenization (which, ultimately, the larger German society is free to pursue)? Poles have a long tradition in Germany of persecution and antipolish feelings are expressed on regular basis in Germany.In the past they have led to murder by Germans of 6milion Polish citizens.See previous talk.-- Molobo 19:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I really think the last point is important. It isn't Anti-Polonism if it occurs across the board with minorities, any more than Japanese attitudes are anti-Koreanism (xenophobic yes, but toward virtually every foreign group). I know, for instance, third-generation Turks cannot become Germans. So please prove the above points and attempt to show their notability vis-a-vis other groups. Marskell 09:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Everything what is now in the anti-Polonism in Germany today - section is false.
Rudi Pawelka paragraph:
"German courts and Polish language and culture
Harald Schmidt Show
Florian Illies
So this is the anti-Polonism of today's Germany in the article: chimeras dressed as facts. None of the allegations is true. Molobo, I know your passion for Nazism and other things connected to WWII but face it: we live in the 21th century, times have changed. Don't invent facts only to try to connect a WWII article to today. Does anyone apart from Molobo think any "fact" should be included? NightBeAsT 12:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for compiling this NightBeAsT, I thought of doing it myself. - guety is talking english bad 01:48, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Dear NightBeast! You think that I deleted the 'German-Polish-Friendship-Section'. Well, that is not true. Unfortunately my IP is a shared IP, 15.000 Students use it every day. It is possible, that someone else deleted the section... I have no influence on what people use our server and what they do with this page. Micha.
Please don't lie NB. I said clearly that I support the article on attempts to erase traditional antipolonism in German culture and adding link to the main article.As to the title-in terms of culture such thing as friendship between two nations is a bit unscientific in my view, of course they exist nations that have culturaly friendly views to each other, this is not the case of course with Germans and Poles so title would be false. -- Molobo 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.westfr.de/ns-literatur/konservative.htm -- Molobo 19:49, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
So please watch out for awkward statements such "add this lies" etc.-- Molobo 20:03, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The entire article confuses several terms and meanings, and interprets everything as Anti-polish prejudice without real understanding. Overall, it is pure POV with little real content.
http://www.dac.neu.edu/holocaust/Hitlers_Plans.htm + - The Sub-human (RuSHA, 1942) + - "The category of sub-human (Untermensch) included Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, Serbs, etc.) Gypsies and Jews. TOP + - "To avoid mistakes which might subsequently occur in the selection of subjects suitable for 'Germanization,' the RuSHA [The Race and Settlement Head Office] in 1942 distributed a pamphlet, The Sub-Human, to those responsible for that selection. 3,860,995 copies were printed in German alone and it was translated into Greek, French, Dutch, Danish, Bulgarian, Hungarian and Czech and seven other languages. It stated: + - The sub-human, that biologically seemingly complete similar creation of nature with hands, feet and a kind of brain, with eyes and a mouth, is nevertheless a completely different, dreadful creature. He is only a rough copy of a human being, with human-like facial traits but nonetheless morally and mentally lower than any animal. Within this creature there is a fearful chaos of wild, uninhibited passions, nameless destructiveness, the most primitive desires, the nakedest vulgarity. Sub-human, otherwise nothing. For all that bear a human face are not equal. Woe to him who forgets it." 1 The Nazis acknowledged that among the sub-humans, (especially among their leaders) there were those few who had obvious traces of Aryan-Nordic ancestry; however, it was decided that most of these people would have to be destroyed in order to leave the inferior races without leadership. It was possible that some of these superior people could be "germanized" -- but if not, one should at least preserve the good blood in their children. By this logic, many thousands of Polish children were subjected to a racial test. Those who had what Nazis defined as "Aryan" characteristics -- such as blue eyes, blond hair, a properly proportioned head, good behavior and above average intelligence -- were kidnapped from their parents and shipped to Germany for ultimate adoption by appropriate German families. " +
Furthermore I have nothing against adding in Russophobia article that Russians were perceived by German state as subhumans. -- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
That Poles were considered subhumans by German state in WW2 .That is right. -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Michal Czaplicki from the Institute which made the study summed up the findings : http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?wid=4810708&katn=Polska&widn=%22Polska+krajem+biedy+i+z%B3odziei+samochod%F3w%22&kat=1342&ticaid=1468&_ticrsn=3 "Niemcy postrzegają Polskę bardziej negatywnie, przede wszystkim jako kraj złodziei i kraj, który jest inny" "Germans view Poland more negative-most of all as country of thieves, and country that is different." As you can see the stereotype of Poles being criminals that existed during German atrocities in Poland still exist in Germany. -- Molobo 22:32, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Some specific concerns:
I already provided information on polls in regards to German societies attitude towards Polish people.Please read talk carefully in the future Alx: "In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago." From article sourced above-I thought you read it since you decided to delete it. Molobo
|Molobo]] 12:16, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
"Uważajcie. Tu siedzą polnische banditen! - ostrzega Niemiec. - No to im pokażemy! - rzucam. Niemcy się śmieją." "Look out.Here are polnische banditen-warns the German-We will show them-I shout.Germans laugh" This from memories the German anihiliation of Warsaw.As you can see the term describing Poles as thieves is used by Germans.The same stereotype is repeated by Schmidt. -- Molobo 21:52, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"we are back to bad jokes" Which are the same stereotype that in part led to and was used in mass murder of Poles by Germany.It is certainly worth noting that such stereotypes have found audience again in Germany. -- Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
"though a reference to Schmidt's use of the stereotype would be nice."
From Thomas Urban-a know researcher on German-Polish relations. http://www.thomas-urban.pl/artykul2.php "Wróciły dobrze znane stereotypy na temat Polaków: „polski bałagan", „Polak-złodziej", „Polską rządzi kler, ciemnota" i „Polacy to antysemici". Niestety, sporo Niemców traktuje Polskę jako jakiś dziki kraj, gdzie rośnie tajga. Parę lat temu znany prezenter TV Harald Schmidt regularnie opowiadał do znudzenia dowcipy o Polakach, którzy kradną. W ten sposób urabia się opinię." Well known stereotypes about Poles have returned-"Polish disorder", "Poland is led by priests and dumbness" and "Poles are antisemites".Unfortunetly most Germans treat Poland as wild country wher taiga grows.A few years ago known TV presenter regularly till boredom talked about Poles that steal.In such way an opinion is made. -- Molobo 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC) Usage of stereotype of Poles being criminals in concentration camp by SSmen http://republika.pl/horajec/okup2.html" przychodzi oficer esesman i każdego z nas wita harapem, lub butem w brzuch, albo pięścią w twarz . Mnie tak przywitał , że mi ząb zaraz wyleciał i mówił "polnisch bandit"." An SS officer comes and welcomes us with harap, or with kick in the stomach, or fist in the face.He welcomed me so much, my tooth fell out, and he spoke "polnisch bandit".
"Idziemy piątkami na drugie pole- w bramie nas liczą i nahajką ćwiczą. Esesmani mówią coś do siebie, pokazują na nas - "polnische banditen". Przystanęliśmy przy pierwszym bloku; prowadzą nas do trzeciego bloku."
We go in five on the second field-in the gates the count us and treat with whips.SSmen speak something to themselfs, they point out us-"polnische banditen".We stoped at the first bloc, they led us to third bloc.
http://www.warsawuprising.com/witness/atrocities9.htm During the Rising, on leaving the house where I lived, No. 30 Ogrodowa Street, I found myself in a shelter of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, No. 2 Elektoralna Street. This was on August 7, 1944. In the shelter there were several hundred people, mostly women and children. In the afternoon of this day, after the Insurgents had retreated from Elektoralna Street, a German outpost was set in front of the gateway of the Ministry. About 9 o’clock in the evening 2 gendarmes entered the shelter and ordered all the men to go out. The soldier who stood on guard assured us that we were only going to work. We were led out three by three (we were about 150 men) to Mirowski Square, among the buildings of the two Market Halls. Here we were ordered to remove the corpses, scores of which were lying on the ground, and after that, rubble from the gutters and the roadway. There were about a hundred Poles on the square when we came, all busy cleaning it up, and some hundreds of Germa n gendarmes, who behaved very brutally: beating the Poles, kicking them, and calling them Polnische Banditen. At a certain moment they stopped our work and ordered those who were not Poles to step forward. One man who had White-Russian documents did so, and was immediately released. After an hour and a half’s work, the gendarmes ordered us to form threes. I found myself in the second rank. We were all made to stand with our hands up. An old man in the front rank, who could not hold his hands up any longer, was cruelly struck in the face by a gendarme. After 10 minutes five rows of three were marched off under the escort of five gendarmes armed with tommy guns to the Market Hall in Chlodna Street. By chance I heard the names of two of the gendarmes who shouted to each other, Lipinski and Walter. When we entered the building after passing two gates I saw, almost in the centre of the Hall, a deep hole in which a fire was burning; it must have been sprinkled with petrol because of the dense black smo ke. We were put under a wall on the left side of the entrance near a lavatory. We stood separately with faces turned to the wall and hands up.
After a few minutes I heard a series of shots and I fell. Lying on the ground I heard the moans and groans of people lying close to me and also more shots. When the firing ceased I heard the gendarmes counting those who lay on the ground; they only counted up to thirteen. Then they began to look for two more who were missing. They found a father and son hiding in the adjoining lavatory. They brought them out, and I heard the voice of the boy shouting "Long live Poland", and then shots and moans."
As you can see there is much evidence that stereotype of Poles being criminals was used by Germans during their mass murder of Polish people.The same stereotype repeated by German media star that was awarded for his work.
I am sure those Poles would love German jokes about Poles being criminals...
-- Molobo 22:08, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Some statistics about German jokes on the Web (from Google search results):
I think this proves my point that German jokes are more about direct neighbors and do not reflect a specific prejudice. Groeck 20:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. And to extend the point a little farther: is John Cleese anti-German?: is Steve Coogan anti-French?: is Chris Rock anti-white? Sure, if you pick a given skit, but in general no. Keep your thinking cap on. An anti-Polish joke on German T.V. is not the reappearance of the SS. Is Canadian culture anti-American? Of course. But no more anti-American than American culture is anti-Canadian (according to ME)...and of course it reveals a bond as much as anything else (why, incidentally, did German-Polish friendship get removed?). Nothing on the page proves to me that this is specific and particular to Poles. I asked this above and I think it important: is the treatment of Poles in Germany different than that provided Turks and Arabs? I'd like to see somebody prove yes. Marskell 23:13, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. I collected some more stats, this time about articles in German language mentioning hate of foreigners. Countries are mentioned in such articles as follows:
Obviously, there is no statistical relationship between the number of jokes and the amount of "hate".
There are several good articles on the web about hate of foreigners in Germany, including some with Polish-German specifics and theories about its roots. For example, it apears that the East German SED (the only political party in the German Democratic Republic before the reunification) started an anti-Polish campaign in the 1980's. This is information which can easily be confirmed and should have a well deserved place in the Anti-Polonism article. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Instead, there is a lot of non-information, information which would usually be removed from Wikipedia as "original research".
I would suggest to remove all unconfirmed information, i.e., all original research, and replace it with information which can be confirmed through independent references. Groeck 04:23, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Please read it then instead of repeating the same questions over and over. -- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I will second Groeck. The article proved that German citizenship or "status" laws are archaic and insular. It did not prove specifically anti-Polish bigotry. Marskell 22:26, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
'The Germans speak arrogantly of Polnische Wirtschaft, thus confirming the economic differences between the two countries but conveniently forgetting the German (and Prussian) contribution to the destruction of that Wirtschaft. In the opinion polls about various nationalities, Poles rank lower than Turks or Russians, and 87 percent of young Germans regard them as "worse than themselves."(17) In popular TV programs, Poles are presented the way blacks were presented in the American press half a century ago. On the other hand, during the time of communism in central and eastern Europe, it was difficult for Polish and other immigrants from communism to develop pride concerning their country of origin. The poverty of eastern and central European countries, their lack of democracy and constant economic crises evoked the feeling shame and jealousy as contrasted with West German prosperity. The discrimination of Poles (and of other ethnic minorities) in Germany has been exacerbated by the extremist right and its slogans of Deutschland für Deutsche and Ausländer raus!
Still another problem is the culture shock stemming from two different perceptions of what Europe really means. To Poles, it seems natural that they, together with the Germans, belong to a common European culture and share a common religion. This feeling of belonging together is not shared by the Germans. While the Poles accept German culture as part of European culture, the Germans do not see Polish culture as sharing the same cultural roots. While an educated Pole knows at least some German writers, the opposite is not true of an educated German. The growing realization of this situation, the feeling of frustration, anger and resentment not only against the Germans but also against Polish culture is a natural result, and some immigrants begin to share the prejudices of the dominant group. While the emigration of the last 20 years has somewhat softened these problems, they still do exist.
That does not prevent the occasional Germans revisionist claims. Among those was a recent attempt by the extreme right wing German party, "Nationale Offensive," to establish itself in the Opole region of Poland, in the village of Dziewkowice. The Bund der Vertriebenen, an organization representing those expelled from east of the Oder-Neisse line, occasionally expresses revisionist goal and demands that Germans from Germany be allowed to join the German minority organizations in Poland. "Helmut, you are our chancellor too:" such posters (in Polish) occasionally appeared in Silesia under the auspices of such German organizations.
In particular, the treatment accorded to Poles has obviously been not on the agenda of the German civil rights organizations or of those German scholars and thinkers who spend time agonizing over Germany's actions in the twentieth century. +
Few Germans wish to remember that the establishment of Poland's western border along the Oder-Neisse rivers is linked with the incorporation of 46 percent of Poland's prewar territory by the Soviet Union and the decision of the three Great Powers to transfer German population from Poland to Germany, and the Polish population from Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania to post-German territories. The forced human dislocation, without precedent in modern history, compelled 4.5 million Poles to leave their eastern and rural homelands and move to the industrialized region abandoned by the forcibly expelled millions of Germans. The Germans remember the tragedy of their dislocation but conveniently forget that of the Poles.
-- Molobo 18:17, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
This comment refers to the first part of this chapter. I understand it has been discussed before. After reading through the related talk page comments, there appears to have been an agreement that the statements made are unsupported by the facts. Yet, the text is still there.
I spent some time last night trying to find references for the several "it has been cited that ..." statements in this chapter. I could not find any. References cited confirm the statements, but not an associated Anti-Polish sentiment, much less an "Anti-Polonism" associated with it (of course, I might have missed something).
In addition, the claim made about Polish cavalry fails to mention that the "supidity and incompetence" argument was used during WW II as propaganda by the Germans (and would thus belong to the pre-1945 section). References I found on the Web, contrary to the claim made, typically refer to the bravery of such attacks, and tend to correctly clarify that it was typically not real attacks, but the best way for attacking horses to pass by suddenly appearing tanks.
As such, the text should be removed, or references should be provided for every "has been cited". Groeck 13:46, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry for creating a separate headline for this, even though it has been mentioned a number of times above.
I downloaded the referenced document. I searched through it several times. Either it does not mention the term "anti-Polonism", or I forgot how to search in a Word document. I also tried to find a link through an internet search, but did not find it either. I understand that it has been claimed multiple times that the term would be there, and that an internet search would point to it. Did anyone besides me try to download the file ? If so, did you find the term ? If it is not there, it should not be cited in the article as reference.
Groeck 15:19, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
In other words a Polish word is used for the English version.Lets not give impression Alx that this is a different word. -- Molobo 22:12, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason for changing the title. We don't have "Anti-Jewish sentiment".The word Antipolonism is used in scholary works. -- Molobo 17:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Putting Poles in gas chambers and executing children claiming they are animals isn't hate ? Then again you just claimed calling Poles criminals isn't antipolish. -- Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Add info on consistant stereotypes in German cultural sphere on Poles:
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/football/09/02/poland.injuries.ap/?section=cnn_latest Austria also faces the prospect of Polish prosecutors investigating a complaint against midfielder Dietmar Kuehbauer. Kuehbauer, who is set to play, is alleged to have refused to be interviewed with Poland's Adam Ledwon on Austrian television last Saturday, saying he "stinks Polish." -- Molobo 18:21, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to use some style of formatting to help separating comments from each other ? Groeck 18:35, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/cgjs/publications/hbpolgerpol.html German anti-Slavism, which was often directed at the Poles, had prominent spokesman in the nineteenth century. In a letter in March 1861 to his sister Malwine, Bismarck, for example, expressed the Prussian-German attitude towards the Poles which turned out to be a blueprint for the future: "So clobbeth the Poles so that they despair; they have my deepest sympathy for their situation, but, if we want to exist, we have no choice but to wipe them out ('ausrotten'); the wolf cannot help it that he was created by God the way he is, but one shoots him yet, if one can."(11)
When the German empire made frenetic attempts to germanise her Polish provinces, she was supported by organisations like the Ostmarkenverein or the Pan-German alliance. These endeavours were also well received by prominent German intellectuals. As, for example, the sociologist Max Weber, once a member of the Pan-German alliance, put it: "It was we who humanised the Poles"(12). This anti-Slavism was to be brought to a climax during the Third Reich. -- Molobo 23:31, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
A phobia is "irrational fear".The article doesn't speak about irrational fear about Germans but about cultural, political and historical aspects of German society that led to atrocities against Poles.Of course it isn't limited to Germany.I doubt you can speak about a phobia when real life atrcoities accured.You could if they didn't. -- Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"Furthermore, one might possibly suspect some level of emotional response on your side, especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans." So far we hace seen emotional and quite hysteric reaction IMHO on part of German posters towards mentioning historical facts which could led us to some conclusions as to their view of history of Germany.However Wikipedia is not original research.
"especially when it comes to your opinion about Germans" I have yet to express opinion on Germans in the article.So far I used scholary works, historical events and quotes from German politicians such as Bismarck, Hitler, or Goebbels.-- Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but you have proved nothing so far.Have you proved that Germans didn't use the stereotype of Poles as criminals during WW2 as justification for atrocities ? No you didn't.Have you proved that Harald Schmidt doesn't use the same stereotype ? No you didn't. Furthermore If we have a mathematical solution to solving POW disputes in regards to history or political views then I suggest you post it on Wiki's main page right away. I suggest a Noble is also in order. Molobo.
You can't show mathematically what history is probable or true.Sorry. -- Molobo 00:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Both from and about Poles. Doesn't seem to be limited to Germans telling jokes.
Groeck 00:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but Urban said so.I didn't interpret his words.Only translated.You see any other translation ? -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC) 3) is a conclusion which equals Polish stereotypes with anti-Polish attitute I doubt claiming Poles are criminals, thieves, bandits-just like German Reich under Nazis did-is pro-Polish. -- Molobo 00:56, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Your attempts of apologism towards German stereotypes of Poles as criminals is not going to change the fact that such stereotype was used in German atrocities against Poles and is still found in German society.Furthermore experts on Polish-German relations admit that Schimdts jokes serve to portayal a negative view of Poles.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
"In respect to your interpretation of Thomas Urban's quotes"
I didn't provide an interpretation.I provided a translation.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
" The claim "approved by German society" would, however, require references"
Schimdt won several awards.It doesn't seem he was isolated or that he angered German public by using stereotypes of Poles as criminals that accompanied German mass murder of Poles in XX century.
--
Molobo 11:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore you can find acceptence by another German public figure of his usage of the stereotype:
http://www.kaindlstorfer.at/interviews/illies.html
"Was heißt das?
Illies: Harald Schmidt hat uns gelehrt, daß man Menschen einfach nicht ernst nehmen kann, die ständig vom Umweltschutz reden und hellblaue Buttons mit Friedenstauben tragen, weil diese Menschen den Umweltschutz und das Buttontragen selbst viel zu ernst nehmen. Außerdem sind wir die erste Generation, die wieder über Polenwitze lachen kann, ohne gleich an den Polenfeldzug von 1939 denken zu müssen. Auch in dieser Beziehung hat uns Harald Schmidt befreit."
It seems that Harald Schimdt serves as way of letting Germans forget the atrocities on Polish people(We must remember that both Polenfeldzug was a Nazi propaganda term, and that Wehrmacht mass murdered polish civilians during this war).However pointing out such conclusion would be Original Research I think.So the best way would be making a sentence about the Polnische Banditen stereotype used to justify murder of Poles by Germans in WW2 with examples and then citing Illies praising Schmidt that such stereotype can be used again in Germany.
--
Molobo
11:38, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but you are wrong-the stereotype about Poles being criminals was used to justify mass murder of Polish people.Schmidt uses the same stereotype and as we can see-receives gratitude for allowing Germans to again portay Poles as criminals. Molobo
"What a absurd conclusion. " Sorry but I already provided several examples of Germans atrocities where such stereotypes were used by Germans towards Poles. Here is another example of German stereotype of Poles being criminals that was used during an German atrocity:
he people who stood at the entrance were led, no, pushed in, not all at once but in groups of 20. A boy of twelve, seeing the bodies of his parents and of his little brother through the half-open entrance door, fell in a fit and began to shriek. The Germans and Vlassov's men beat him and pushed him back, while he was endeavouring to get inside. He called for his father and his mother. We all knew what awaited us here; there was no possibility of escape or of buying one's life; there was a crowd of Germans, Ukrainians* (Vlassov's men), and cars. I came last and kept in the background, continuing to let the others pass, in the hope that they would not kill a pregnant woman, but I was driven in with the last lot. In the yard I saw heaps of corpses 3 feet high, in several places. The whole right and left side of the big yard (the first yard) was strewn with bodies. (A sketch of the yard was made by the deponent.) We were led through the second. There were about 20 people in our group, mostly children of 10 to 12. There were children without parents, and also a paralysed old woman whose son-in-law had been carrying her all the time on his back. At her side was her daughter with two children of 4 and 7. They were all killed. The old woman was literally killed on her son-in-law's back, and he along with her. We were called out in groups of four and led to the end of the second yard to a pile of bodies. When the four reached this point, the Germans shot them through the backs of their heads with revolvers. The victims fell on the heap, and others came. Seeing what was to be their fate, some attempted to escape; they cried, begged, and prayed for mercy. I was in the last group of four. I begged the Vlassov's men around me to save me and the children, and they asked if I had anything with which to buy my life. I had a large amount of gold with me and gave it them. They took it all and wanted to lead me away, but the German supervising the execution would not allow them to do so, and when I begged him to let me go he pushed me off, shouting "Quicker!" I fell when he pushed me. He also hit and pushed my elder boy, shouting "hurry up, you Polish bandit ". Thus I came to the place of execution, in the last group of four, with my three children. I held my two younger children by one hand, and my elder boy by the other. The children were crying and praying. The elder boy, seeing the mass of bodies, cried out: "they are going to kill us" and called for his father. The first shot hit him, the second me; the next two killed the two younger children. I fell on my right side. The shot was not fatal. The bullet penetrated the back of my head from the right side and went out through my cheek. I spat out several teeth; I felt the left side of my body growing numb, but I was still conscious and saw everything that was going on around me"
As you can see the stereotype of Pole being a criminal, thief, bandit is used by the German here to murder Polish children and pregnant women.The same stereotype of Poles being criminals, thieves, and bandits is used in German tv by a person who is rewarded by German media society. -- Molobo 00:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Bizarre and repugnant racial categorizations were used in WWII to justify the mass murder of Poles. At the very best stereotypes regarding thievery were ancillary to the process just as the "hook-nose" on the Jew was merely crude caricature that is ultimately irrelevant in itself. And yes it's absolutely a red herring and emotional pleading to bring the idea up in regards to a TV commentator in 2005. Get on topic Molobo and God could you address the complaint: why should this not be re-named? Marskell 23:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
"and emotional pleading to bring the idea up in regards to a TV commentator in 2005." TV commentator shouldn't use antipolonism just as he shouldn't use antisemitism.As to renaming the term is used in Polish encyclopedia(as printed in Wielkiej Ilustrowanej Encyklopedii Powszechnej (Suplement Wspolczesny) t.23/1 Wydanej przez Wydawnictwo Gutenberg Print w 1997 r.) so I see no reason for renaming it. -- Molobo 00:50, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
"according to you POV" They are according to specialists in regards to German-Polish relations.That is not my POV.However If you believe presenting people as bandits and criminals is positive I don't think we can engage in discussion. "but your repeated references to World War II atrocities are diversions." It was a German author that thanked Schmidt that he can again think about Poles as bandits and laugh without needing to be remembered about German aggresion against Poland. See also : http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/98/02/p-witze.htm Wenn Harald Schmidt fur seine Polenwitze mit Medienpreisen �bersch�ttet werde, denke in Deutschland niemand an die drei Millionen Polen und die weiteren drei Millionen polnischen Juden, die die Deutschen im Zweiten Weltkrieg umgebracht haben. -- Molobo 01:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
" differs in kind from a Polish joke on German T.V. in 2005. " Does seem so according to these articles : See also : http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/98/02/p-witze.htm Wenn Harald Schmidt fur seine Polenwitze mit Medienpreisen �bersch�ttet werde, denke in Deutschland niemand an die drei Millionen Polen und die weiteren drei Millionen polnischen Juden, die die Deutschen im Zweiten Weltkrieg umgebracht haben. See also: http://fesportal.fes.de/pls/portal30/docs/FOLDER/IPG/IPG1_2004/ARTKRZEMINSKI.PDF Spaß muss sein. Und – wie Florian Illies6 am Anfang seines Buches bemerkt – Schmidts »Polenwitze« hatten für diese Generation eine befreiende Funktion. Polen war nie ein solches Tabu wie die Juden gewesen, aber als ein »Opfervolk« im Zweiten Weltkrieg und dann im Kriegszustand 1981 unterlag es den Selbstbeschränkungen einer gewissen »political correctness « oder einfach der »guten Erziehung«. Da die Hemmschwelle nie so hoch gewesen war, und die alten Raster der Verachtung gegenüber dem rückständigen Volk und »der polnischen Wirtschaft« weiterhin virulent waren, fiel auch die Umstellung von der »unterdrückten Solidarnosc« auf den »barbarischen Polenmarkt« nicht schwer. Und im Topos der polnischen Autodiebe konnte man unterschwellig sehr leicht die unausgesprochene Assoziation »Volk der Diebe« heraushören: Sie klauen Schlesien, Autos und nun auch deutsche Arbeitsplätze. In der eu sind sie lediglich hinter den Geldern der Nettozahler her, und im Irak wollen sie obendrein als »trojanischer Esel Amerikas« am Krieg gewinnen. Sie spielen sich nur auf und sind nicht einmal imstande, eine vernünftige Automarke auf den Weltmarkt zu bringen. Dies sind vielleicht krass überzeichnete überzeichnete Stimmungslagen, doch keineswegs Projektionen. Die Reserve gegenüber Polens Aufnahme in die eu, die gerade die Eurobarometer in Deutschland anzeigten, wie auch die niedrige Position der Polen auf dem deutschen Thermometer der Sympathie belegen, dass in der deutschen Gesellschaft nach wie vor historisch viel ältere Aversionen gegen den östlichen Nachbarn existieren als die durch die Grenzveränderungen und den »Bevölkerungsaustausch« von 1945 verursachten. Und, was noch wichtiger und bedenklicher ist: Die Selbstkorrektive sind in der deutschen Tradition schwächer als in anderen historisch belasteten Fällen, etwa dem deutsch-französischen, dem deutsch-russischen, deutsch-amerikanischen oder deutsch-israelischen Verhältnis. Care to translate the sentence and add it to the article ? Especially the part about "Volk der Diebe".... -- Molobo 01:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Please translate the article. If you are not willing to I will do it, although my German isn't top quality, perhaps I will need help. However I can already tell you that the article tells that stereotypes about Poles told by Harald led to stereotype of Nation of Thieves and that Germans have much less self-correctnes to Poles then to other nations. -- Molobo 11:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
My dear friend Molobo! Your last comment here shows clearly, that you never saw the Harald-Schmidt-Show! Otherwise you would have recognized, that he made the same jokes with the same correctness with Turkish, Belgian, Danish, Czech people and so on, too! Simply said, what YOU say is completely Bullshit! (Oops, I don't feel sorry for this "Personal Attac" :-) ) Micha.
The reference to the Polish encyclopedia that was brought by Molobo is a strong point in favour of the retaining the article under the title anti-Polonism. Alx-pl D 20:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC) I am very sorry, but the week before and this week I was/am very busy in the real life
I am not following all discussions here, but this recent anon edit strikes me like a vandalism. Shouldn't it be reverted? If so, I'd recommend incorporating recent good faith edits of Sidp into old version it. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 21:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes please revert the page to the previous NPOV disputed one (mainly because multiple links, photos have been deleted by the vandal). As to the text content in view of encyclopedia having entry on Antipolonism information it seems necessery to write new version incorporating the rich info and data provided in it.However I would like to have the main structure restored with photos, links and quotes . -- Molobo 12:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Fortunately someone had the courage to re-edit this text to the original version without these Erika-Steinbach- or Harald-Schmidt-lies Molobo and others would like to see in. These Lies have been the only vandalizm in this text, and fortunately they have been removed now. Micha.
Well Micha you don't give up. Perhaps you should create an account rather than sniping from the sidelines.
To repeat there is no Polish Black Legend. You can infer or incidentally analogize one into existence but it makes no more sense than a Nigerian Black Legend or a Mexican Black Legend. The Black Legend is a highly specified idea.
Also, added "academic" before "term." That's as much as we can say in English. Marskell 23:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my last edit was not against you or your Opinion or comments. Just let me explain: on the one hand Molobo called me -and not only me- names on more than one occasion, but on the other hand he does not want to be called e.g. a liar (which he in my opinion is) himself. He was the one who used this method first, and now he removed all my last comments as "personal attacks". Well, if he wants to have an edit war, he can have one. Next time I try to save at least your comments and put it into the re-edited page. Micha.
--- Molobo 23:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
" It is inappropriate as it stood because the Black Legend page makes absolutely no reference to Poland" The Wiki page is not the ultimate authority.Neither it is a scholary work. "and the vast majority of people who understand the term understand it in terms of Spain and Spain alone." This is your POV.Remember Wiki is not an original research. " In practical discourse there is no Polish Black Legend" Again, this is your POV.Remember Wiki is not an original research.-- Molobo 11:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC) "make a properly qualified reference with link" Marskell there was a time when this article was supplied with links and reference for most of it.However it is vandalised on constant basis, right now I am in process of writing a whole new version supplied with links so that it can be entered at any time after vandalisation(btw in old versions the line was supported with resources)-- Molobo 11:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"is hardly my POV" Please bring world wide opinion poll on this.Otherwise its your POV. "Asserting a Polish black legend is like applying Anti-Americanism to Indonesia." Again this is your PoV reflecting your bias towards the topic. "and neither is an academic looking for a catchy book title." That this only a catchy title is again your PoV and rather unfriendly reflection of your bias towards the article.
-- Molobo 11:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"POV but my perfectly reasonable observation " Wiki is not about personal observations.Remember Wiki is not original research. " I left it in but I qualified it properly. One "researcher has suggested" is about as much as you can say" You qualified it wrong.First of all they are several works reaserching this not one. Secondly no a researcher hasn't suggest it but studied.Saying he has suggested implies it doesn't exist and was invented by researches, which serves to push your POV that this only a "catchy title". -- Molobo 11:41, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"Your use of POV and OR here is badly skewed." I am sorry but my name isn' Dawid Łukasiewicz.Neither did I write Polish Encyclopedia.
"That the Black Legend is associated with Spain is simply a fact Molobo"
Sorry but this is your POV.Black Legend isn't concerned only with Spain. ""There are several works"--when this was brought up previously you referenced one. Where are these several? " Why do you misinform ? I brought to you two scholary works that study the issue "Further, research in the social sciences is necessarily suggestive; there is nothing wrong with my qualification" If you want to publish a book be my guest.However Wiki isn't for original research that you are trying to push.-- Molobo 12:35, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
" Above, under "Changes" you provided one reference for the Black Legend bit" You misinform.I provided you with two sources the other being Polish Encyclopedia. "you want to assert a generic Polish Black Legend" I am not Dawid Lukasiewicz or makers of Polish Encyclopedia.-- Molobo 13:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
You want to use Google to affirm academic terms ? Anyway it seems you didn't search much : http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6625 The Black Legend against Spain is part of a vast movement started by the enemies of the Faith to destroy the Catholic religion. It is not an isolated case; other Catholic countries like Italy, Ireland and Poland have had their reputations smeared for their adhesion to the Faith. -- Molobo 13:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The term Black Legend is isolated to Spain" Sorry that is your personal view that ignores now at least 3 scholary works. "Of course religious bigotry isn't isolated to Spain" Please refrain from xenophobic comments in the future. "does not assert that term has been applied to these countries" That is your POV.However both another scholary works-Polish Encyclopedia and book by Dawid Lukasiewicz show also that there is a Polish Black Legend. -- Molobo 13:53, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Please refrain from personal attacks Marskell. "and you have no response" I already proved that Black Legend of Poland is mentioned and studied in Polish Encyclopedia and scholary work. "It's been one, several and two at various points" Actually it has always been two, however you have chosen to misinfom by ignoring the Polish Encyclopedia.The third was found during the discussion.There is also a fourth by Jan Nowak but he is a controversial author so I left him. -- Molobo 14:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but it says that Black Legend type prejudices is found towards other cultures.Furthermore you still have to deal with the David Lukasiewcz's book and entry in Polish Encyclopedia.-- Molobo 14:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The article analogizes between prejudice, it does not assert that "Italian Black Legend" or "Polish Black Legend" are matter-of-factly used." That is your opinion.However Dawid Lukasiewicz and Polish Encyclopedia show that Polish Black Legend xists. "research, for instance, has underscored a similarity between the Spanish Black Legend and historical German attitudes toward Poland" Sorry but such attitude isn't claimed to be only German by the sources. -- Molobo 15:09, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry Marskell but Polish Encyclopedia doesn't limit Polish Black Legend to Germany. "Indeed, show me where the three words, Polish, Black and Legend are strung together" Czarna Legenda Dziejów Polski-Jan Nowak. Dawid Lukasiewicz-Czarna Legenda Polski. http://www.tiger.edu.pl/kolodko/artykuly/Dzis.8.2003.pdf "Historia ma to do siebie, że niekiedy bywa wredna, wpierw bowiem w odniesieniu do niedawnej przeszłości rysuje czarną wizję. Dotyczy to także historii współczesnej. Historycy nazywają to „czarną legendą". W czasach Odrodzenia bardzo czarno rysowano Średniowiecze. W następnej epoce z kolei, bardzo krytycznie pisano o Odrodzeniu. Kiedy w Polsce odbudowywano gospodarkę po zniszczeniach 2. wojny światowej i tworzono system socjalistyczny, nauczano nas w szkole, jak kiepskim systemem była Polska międzywojenna. Tamten okres też więc, zanim doczekał się w miarę rzetelnego opisu, przejść musiał przez swój epizod „czarnej legendy"." -- Molobo 15:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"The history of this page indicates this is an accurate description" Please remember Wiki is not original research. -- Molobo 19:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Adding your personal views in the article what is Black Legend and what is not(which btw contradict scholary works) is OR.Sorry. -- Molobo 10:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Talk is confirming the article.However article is not for presenting your private views Marskell. -- Molobo 12:47, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
The google's first hits (I omit Wikipedia mirrors) give
(this is the result of screening of the first 30 google hits). Alx-pl D 10:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC) BTW. this is also an argument to remove the adjective academic. The word anti-Polonism is widely used in the public debate on Polish-Jewish relations (whereas it is hardly used in the public debate on Polish-German relations which was and is currently the main source of the content for the article). Alx-pl D 10:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
"What is the appropriate way to contextualize this term? " Polish Encyclopedia defines antipolonism as hostility towards Poles and Polish state. -- Molobo 23:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
It does not mean two or even four references, Molobo. You want, as I have stated more times than I can count, to insert the Black Legend bit as time of day. It's not time of day. You haul out the POV soapbox any chance you get and all you're doing with this is inserting POV. "Often" means regularly, in common discourse, obvious. There is absolutely nothing obvious about a "Polish Black Legend." Marskell 00:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
'For the uninvolved, it is quite difficult to follow the contorted logic of nationalists' What is your reason for calling editors of the Polish encyclopedia and Dawid Lukasiewicz nationalists ?-- Molobo 11:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I found an interesting article: http://www.orbis-linguarum.net/1999/12_99/VIADRINA.html.
Here is the translated content of the article from the Polish Wikipedia to compare: ( Alx-pl 16:39, 20 November 2005 (UTC)) note: Arbitrarily written by administrator Szwedzki, who reverts any changes to his version
Anti-Polonism (alternatively spelled antipolonism; also, Polonophobia) is a political slogan that describes collectively all sentiments and all kinds of hostility toward Poles. The word anti-Polonism started to occur in Polish right-wing and radical right-wing media in 1990s as an answer to accusations of anti-Semitism done by Jewish circles.
Historic counterpart of anti-Polonism is polakożerstwo (in English - Poles devouring) - a term used in 19th century to describe anti-Polish politics of Otto von Bismarck.
Currently, the grounds of anti-Polonism are not rasist and it has no support in any organised ideology. The journalists, politics and priests use that term in the context of events that signify sentiment towards Poles (for instance in the context of Polish jokes, presentation of negative stereotypes of Poles in foreign media or historical misstatements like Polish death camps).
Some right-wing journalists, when they refer to anti-Polonism, incorporate conspiracy theories which link the historical persecution of the Polish nation with the incidents of present times. According to these theories anti-Polonism manifested throughout the history in different ways both in acts of individual persons and in organised actions ordained by governments of states or organisations. The actions ranged from propagation of motivated by anti-Polonism aversion for Poles to felonious acts the goal of which was to suppress Polish state and physical extermination of the Polish nation. The groups which are currently most frequently accussed for anti-Polonism include Jewish circles together with German and Russian politics.
Polish wikipedia is very poorly done. Perhaps you should translate the entry from Polish Encyclopedia that gives a more detailed information.-- Molobo 01:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Certainly-if only you will find a scholary source confirming this.As of now perhaps Alx-pl could translate the version from Polish encyclopedia about anti-polonism, which is quite different from Polish wiki.Of course you would have hard time arguing that the term is invention of right-wingers in Poland and used only by them, as it is used by Gazeta Wyborcza-a rather liberal newspaper [22]. I am sure they abuse the term, but it isn't limited only to their line of thinking. For example Gross cites in one of his books Jan Józef Lipski using the term and condeming both antisemitism and anti-polonism. Lipski was known for criticising Polish nationalism and xenophobia so as you see the term isn't the domain of far right. -- Molobo 12:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh and Alx-pl perhaps you would add information from this article : [23] Od wielu miesięcy toczy się w Rosji operacja medialna opisująca przeszłość naszych wzajemnych stosunków. (...) Kampania "polityki historycznej" wobec Polski zaczęła się parę miesięcy przed rocznicą zakończenia II wojny światowej. (...) Sens przekazu był jasny: Polska jest zawsze niepewnym sojusznikiem, w wojnie jej rola była dwuznaczna, a pretensje wysuwane przez Polaków (Katyń, Powstanie Warszawskie, pakt Ribbentrop-Mołotow) to rodzaj agresji propagandowej. W ramach tej kampanii były oficer Smiersz porównywał sytuację w Polsce w 1945 r. do obecnej sytuacji "naszych chłopców" w Czeczenii, zaś autorka poczytnej strony [internetowej] pisała o AK jako sojuszniku hitlerowców itp. Zdumiewa to, że operacja po tej rocznicy nie ustała, lecz dalej toczy się w najlepsze. Ostatnio można było przeczytać, że to Polska prowokowała hitlerowskie Niemcy do wojny oraz że "bojownicy polskiej Armii Krajowej w mieście Mińsk Mazowiecki wyrżnęli nasz szpital, zabijając 200 rannych i cały personel (kobiecy)". Reszty nie przytaczam przez wzgląd na wrażliwość czytelników. Jedynym narodem, który jest przedstawiany w równie negatywnym świetle w rosyjskich mediach, są "czeczeńscy terroryści". -- Molobo 12:25, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
You should translate this stuff into English when you are using the English Wikipedia. Volkerfreund 19:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Germany, Poland and Europe: Conflict, Co-Operation and Europeanisation by Marcin Zaborowski - Manchester University Press Anti-polonism in (West) Germany although as not decisive as anti-Germanism in Poland, also came to be a significant factor in in the construction of Bonn's official policies towards Warsaw. page 34.
You can read the rest on google print. -- Molobo 12:34, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
As for citation of the "hen is not a bird" http://users.erols.com/mietek/test/show_news.php?id=news120500.html FROM UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DATED: 8/11/00 GEORGIE ANNE GEYER by Georgie Anne Geyer WHEN HENS FLY: WARSAW TAKES WING TOWARD THE WEST
WARSAW, Poland -- When Russia looks westward these days, it seems to pass right over Poland. Russian leaders don't even seem to see that substantial land mass it has fought over so many times throughout history and which they have cynically regarded as merely a "corridor" -- theirs -- to Germany and to Europe. Somehow Moscow cannot bear the thought that Warsaw is now part of the West.
But it was not always that way. Historically, the Russians have considered Poland, without second thought, to be nothing but a part of imperial Mother Russia. A favorite refrain was "A hen is not a bird; it can't fly." Poland was the hen.
As for Molotov using Pilsudski's statements-objective reference please. -- Molobo 15:27, 25 November 2005 (UTC) Poliakam, panam, sobakam sobachaia smert!. The quote is from Jan T. Gross. Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia. -- Molobo 15:40, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
I've already stated what often means: regular, time-of-day, taken for granted, easily understood. These do not apply to a putative Polish Black Legend.
I am only entering what is stated in scholary work (Lukasiewicz's book )if you have a scholary source that disputes what Lukasiewicz writes, please present it.-- Molobo 18:01, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
This is not my opinion Marskell but research made by Lukasiewicz, please provide something that disputes this research. Also its mentioned not only in Lukasiewicz book. -- Molobo 18:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
What are you talking about ? Britannica doesn't deal with Poland or books that mention Polish black legend.-- Molobo 17:39, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I toned down the article-Samoobrona btw is defined as leftist in its ideology so it didn't fit "far right" definition.Its already mentioned that symbolism used in past persecution of Poles is exploited by such parties-mentioning it three times and under badge from concentration camp seems improper and I believe gives dishonour to people who were forced to wear it. Of course mentioning it is ok with me but not under the badge. Information on NOP or Szczerbiec should be provided in article on them or antisemitism in Poland. -- Molobo 17:28, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I know for a fact that the term in Poland is almost exclusively used in the context of right wing anti-semitic and anti-europeist propaganda. Information about some of the groups that make this use of the term belongs here "and" in anti-semitism in Poland. I am suprised that a user of Wikipedia supports the same use of the term done by Adam Gmurczyk (president of Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski) at texts like this: [24]. Alexbulg 21:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC) I also think that all the historical part should be removed and maybe placed at an independent article, since this issue is about a modern right wing concept, not a historical once. Having this information here is in according to the ideas of said extremist groups. Alexbulg 21:31, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I am glad to see the article move in a saner direction, i.e. shedding light on the development and political usage of the Polish word antypolonizm, instead of proclaiming some universal anti-Polish impulse behind the very disparate persecutions Poles have suffered at various points in history. Not surprisingly, not everyone shares my opinion: Brisvegas complained that "this article was increasingly focussed on the anti-Semitism of right-wing Polish groups than the actual phenomenon of anti-Polonism."
The trouble is, there simply is no "actual phenomenon" commonly known as anti-Polonism. Nobody seriously disputes that Poles have suffered repressions in history, and that negative stereotypes about them persist. However, as a concept unifying all these very different repressions and stereotypes, antypolonizm is a dubious coinage. Listing Bismarck's anti-Catholic Kulturkampf, wartime atrocities against Poles and "Polish jokes" under the headline "anti-Polonism" makes about as much sense as it would to list the English conquest of Ireland, the Potato Famine and "no Irish need apply" signs under the headline "anti-Irishism". At best, such a definition is theory-building or original research, which simply is off limits for Wikipedia.
As mentioned during the VfD, the English word "anti-Polonism" is not in general use, whereas the Polish word antypolonizm is virtually a monopoly of said "right-wing Polish groups". Perhaps significantly, it is not even listed by the most comprehensive Polish dictionary, the Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN.
Typically, the word is used as follows (from the forum of a Polish talk radio network): "There is no anti-Semitism in Poland, this is an invention of the Jewish population, which occupies high-ranking positions in the administration and government. There is, however, anti-Polonism. The Jews hate the Polish nation and are trying to destroy it at every turn." This aptly describes the vicious circle of accusations of Polish anti-Semitism and Jewish anti-Polonism.
I found only one piece of evidence that uses the word antypolonizm in a similar fashion as "our" article: "Antypolonizm" in the "modern supplement" volume of the pre-war Wielka ilustrowana encyklopedia powszechna Gutenberga, a facsimile edition of which was published in the 1990s. Subtitled "Activities aiming at the destruction of the Polish state and nation", the article boldy covers everything from remarks in Bishop Thietmar of Merseburg's chronicle from 1012, via the Moravian educator Comenius who had welcomed The Deluge, the usual suspects Marx and Lenin, right down to Steven Spielberg's "lies" in Schindler's List. In line with the term's political connotation, the article culminates in the conspiracy theory that "after the 1953 reparation agreement between West Germany and Israel, activities aimed at denigrating the image of the Poles (in relation to the Jews during WW II) and at the same time white-washing the Germans became increasingly frequent". The article is hosted on a clearly anti-Semitic "patriotic" hate site, which also declares that "The Jews use the term 'anti-Semitism' whenever Poles defend themselves against anti-Polonism. They also have an interest [read: business interest] in anti-Polonism". This speaks volumes about the people who coined the word anti-Polonism and use it with particular gusto.
In its current version per Brisvegas, the article states that "anti-Polonism" has "been studied in scholarly works by Polish, German and Russian researchers", and that it "has entered mainstream academic usage to describe a variety of behaviours and ideologies influenced by an irrational hatred of Poles." I vehemently challenge this: I am not aware of any works by "Polish, German and Russian researchers" which would employ the term "anti-Polonism" (either as a catch-all term in the way the article suggests, or specifically referring to "Jewish anti-Polonism") and at the same time deserve the label "scholarly" (which obviously excludes works by the likes of Ryszard Bender or Jerzy Robert Nowak). Likewise, the claim about "mainstream academic usage" appears to be created out of thin air.
It is about time we made a clear distinction between the concept of anti-Polonism and the reality it allegedly describes. The article should describe the concept, but without adopting the dubious ideological interpretation of reality by of those who mostly use it. -- Thorsten1 17:51, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Hi Thorsten: http://www.episkopat.pl/?a=dokumentyKEP&doc=dialog 'Trzeba uczynić wszystko, aby odbudować i pogłębiać chrześcijańską solidarność z ludem Izraela po to, aby nigdy i nigdzie podobne nieszczęście nie mogło się znowu wydarzyć. Trzeba również skutecznie przezwyciężać wszelkie przejawy antyżydowskości, antyjudaizmu (czyli niechęci wyrosłej z fałszywie rozumianej nauki Kościoła) i antysemityzmu (tj. nienawiści zrodzonej z pobudek narodowościowych, lub rasowych), jakie miały i jeszcze mają miejsce wśród chrześcijan. Oczekujemy, że z równą determinacją przezwyciężany będzie antypolonizm. ' You have also links to Russian work on polonophobia in the article. -- Molobo 18:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
"This speaks volumes about the people who coined the word anti-Polonism and use it with particular gusto. "
Jan Józef Lipski or Jerzy Turowicz ? http://www.mateusz.pl/czytelnia/jt-bilet.htm Są Polacy, którzy lubią usprawiedliwiać antysemityzm antypolonizmem środowisk żydowskich. To jest zupełnie błędne postawienie sprawy, bo antypolonizm jest skutkiem antysemityzmu. Antypolonizm jest nieraz krzywdzący i niesprawiedliwy, ale jest wynikiem tego, że rodzice czy dziadkowie Żydów, urodzonych w Ameryce, którzy przyjechali tam z Polski i przywieźli swoje doświadczenia, byli ofiarami tego antysemityzmu. Pogromy, dyskryminacja, niechęć na uniwersytetach -- oni ten bagaż ze sobą przywieźli i on w reakcji powoduje antypolonizm, więc tego nie można stawiać na równi. -- Molobo 18:05, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sun.rhbnc.ac.uk/Music/Conferences/00-9-pol.html
Polonophilia and Polonophobia of the Russians Bloomington, September 2000
Call for Papers
Polonophilia and Polonophobia of the Russians
This conference is scheduled for September 16-17, 2000 at the Indiana
University Bloomington campus. We invite proposals for papers on any
aspect of the history of Russia's alternating attraction to and repulsion
of Poland's cultural expression. Topics may include, but need not be
limited to, contributions of Polish creativity to Russian culture and the
reactive use by Russian artists and writers of Polish expression as a foil
for creating a self-conscious Russian cultural identity. The conference is
jointly sponsored by the Indiana University Russian and East European
Institute, the Indiana University Polish Studies Center, and the
University of Wisconsin Madison Department of Slavic Languages and
Literatures. Co-directors are Bozena Shallcross, Indiana University; David
Ransel, Indiana University and Alexander Dolinin, University of Wisconsin
at Madison.
--
Molobo
18:16, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I only deleted your attempts to describe my personal views and persona.Please concentrate on article and don't use the talk page for personal remarks about other people. -- Molobo 02:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
"You know, I really expected you to cite Jan Józef Lipski as a witness" "Anti-Polonism is not morally any better than anti-Semitism or anti-Ukrainism." Jan Jozef Lipski. My point was to show that the term is used by various people. -- Molobo 19:26, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I only delete personal remarks which aren't related to the article. -- Molobo 02:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Intellectuals, Socialism, and Dissent: The East German Opposition and Its Legacy by John C Torpey
Page 81/82 Perhaps most significant for understanding the reaction of the East German citizenry to the earthquake rumbling through Poland during the second half of 1980 was the SED's blatant exploitation of traditional German anti-Polish feeling.In describing East German's reaction to Solidarność one interviewee noted that "this rather difficult[German-Polish] relationship played an important role. People say the Poles don't know how to work...The Party succeeded in developing a social psychology that was anti-polish. Wittenberg pastor Friedrich Schorlemmer who in the fall of 1989 would go on to help the ill fated citizens initiative Democratic Awakening, raised the matter of regime's exploitation of the older ressentiments towards the Poles.This tactic had become especially apparent in the rejuvenation of "Polish Jokes", some of which remained listeners of the spread of such jokes under the Nazis. -- Molobo 20:03, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
A lot of this discussion centres on the treatment of Poles by Germans and ultimately by Nazis. What I would like to know is: was the persecution of Poles a part of the more general persecution of Slavs, or were Poles singled out as worse than say Russians, Czechs, Slovenians, Serbs, etc.? Zocky 02:07, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The problem Zocky is that in contrast to Ukrainians or Czechs, Poles were viewed as inferior by German culture long before Nazism existed.And this traditional hatred and contempt was enforced eve n more strongly by Nazism.-- Molobo 13:26, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
For example see : htttp://www.oslo2000.uio.no/program/papers/s18/s18-blackbourn.pdf http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=1724846635492 http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~sarmatia/902/223books.html The stated aim of this scholarly study is to trace back the negative stereotypes of Poles entrenched in German historiography and popular culture ever since Prussia and Russia engineered the partitions of Poland in the eighteenth century. The treatise begins with a survey of authors and readers of the Prussian statistical publications in the period under review. We learn that the credibility of Beamtentumsliteratur (studies written by petty officials in Prussia) was often marred by corruption and dishonesty of said officials, as well as by their lack of proficiency in Polish. The data they collected were also marred by incompetence, ignorance and a classically hostile attitude toward the Other--in this case, toward the Poles. The writers' generalizing helped to distort the picture: whenever they did not like something, they were likely to say "as is always the case in Poland;" but when they encountered a city they liked (Poznan), they commented that "the city was built according to German standards." German officials routinely compared Polish peasant farmers to the wild inhabitants of "Kamchatka and the West Indies," or to "Roman slaves and American Indians." Such scholars and travelers as Johann Georg Forster compared Poles to "cattle in human form" (in SŠmtliche Schriften). A certain Lichtenberg (said to be Forster's friend) wrote that Poland was inhabited by "landowning despots, dirty Jews and plica" [Weichselzopf, or koltun]. The expression "German cockroaches" must have entered the English language owing to the similarly brutal descriptions of German immigrants to America by those who came earlier from the British Isles.
Among the specific complaints of these official record keepers were the prevalence of Catholicism among Poles (it was considered scandalous), low level of education, consumerism and vanity of the Polish landowners, poverty and servitude of the Polish peasantry, and the greed of Polish Jews who were seen as Poland's "third estate" and whose numerosity in Poland (by comparison to Prussia) irritated the German officials. üukasiewicz's conclusions are that the Prussian officials created a taxonomy within which persons of Polish nationality were perceived as inferior and in need of Prussian tutelage. -- Molobo 13:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
[27] Komisja walczy z antypolonizmem -- Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=1724846635492 More dangerous than an entertaining, if somewhat condescending, fascination with quaint folkloric customs was the tendency to link customs with biological characteristics, a topic explored in Chapter Eight, "Peopling Eastern Europe, Part II: The Evidence of Manners and the Measurements of Race." While Herder was reflecting on the Slavs, Fichte was teaching in Poland and writing negative, racist comments about the Poles. Polish women were slovenly and with a stronger sex drive than Germans (p. 335); Poland was full of wild animals, wild people, and Jews. A racist diatribe published in 1793 (Joachim Christoph Friedrich Schulz's Journey of a Livonian from Riga to Warsaw) was republished in 1941 after the Nazis had conquered Poland, reflecting a trend among German scholars from the eighteenth into the twentieth century to perceive, in the difference between Germany and Poland, a boundary between civilization and barbarism, high German Kultur and "primitive Slavdom" (p. 336). -- Molobo 15:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I am intimately familiar with the subject as I have researched it for University, and right now there is majoritary consensus that no such thing as Anti-Polonism in the sense given by the article exist outside the ideology of nationalist and/or right wing Polish parties. In its current form, the article would be approved by Adam Gmurczyk. I am also curious to know why Molobo has reverted facts that I have properly sourced with embeded links and explained at the Talk Page. Several undisputed facts like the term is not included at Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN have been removed by Molobo with no explanation. As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists. I'll wait for an explanation before re adding the information that you questionably removed. Alexbulg 15:46, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Several undisputed facts like the term is not included at Słownik Języka Polskiego PWN have been removed by Molobo with no explanation You can put that information in the article.Then I will put information that the word is found in National Library of Poland in Dictionary of subjects.You will put that it is rarely used in research.I will put a dozen or so scholary works as example that still, it is used. What will we achieve in doing that ? You can't dispute that the word exists.
As I had put it, the first part of the article focused on Modern Anti-Polonism, which is an ideological fabrication entirely, while the second one did on Historical Anti-Polonism, which was also a reality but no longer exists. You claim that no prejudice against Poles exist ? That is an argument defeated easly. If you would read the archive like I asked you, you will multiple evidence of modern bias towards Poles. Shall I give you book titling Poland a "hyeana" ? Or saying that "every Pole should be shot with contempt" ? Shall I give you a link to Gazeta Wyborcza with article on "antipolish ideology" being used ? -- Molobo 15:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And please read before editing-they are two books by German researches on antipolonismus-yet you set it as "need citation". The citation is easly found by scrolling down by sources.Not to mention your naming of Russian research as "being from XIX century" while it is from modern author speaks negatively about your contributions. -- Molobo 15:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
But it isn't from XIX researcher.Furthermore a simple reading of links will take to Gazeta Wyborcza which has an article on modern usage of antipolish ideology in Russia. -- Molobo 16:16, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Equalling Polish jokes with Nazi persecution is the typical speech of the NOP, not that of scholars. It seems you have limitied knowledge about this :
Intellectuals, Socialism, and Dissent: The East German Opposition and Its Legacy by John C Torpey [28]
The Mirth of Nations by Christie Davies [29]
Both books mention Polish Jokes as originating in Nazi Germany.-- Molobo 16:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Nope, just that the jokes have German origin and are based on racist stereotype(similar to claiming that Poles have to think in certain way because they are Poles). And the book shows that reason for their spreas may have been the growing number of German emmigrants.Not my words. Are the jokes antipolish-of course even if their users don't consider them as such they led to stereotyping Poles as stupid and inferior. It also seems that they can led to discrimination at work : [30]
I rather doubt however that American society has nowadays a strong anti-Polish bias.
But you say that it is a demonstration of Anti-Polonism. So basically its common use (even on movies) in the U.S., according to the logic you display at the article, points exactly otherwise. And that's more or less the same logic displayed at You forgot Poland. Sorry, but your arguments are severely flawed, and you contradict yourself time and time again.
-- Molobo 16:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
So according to that logic, you are clearly saying that German and Russian societies are not necesarily Anti-Polish. I didn't mention neither society in the above discussion.Of course judging by sources and resources we can't even compare the small amount of prejudice in USA towards Poles to traditional beliefs stereotyping negatively Poles in German or Russian cultures. -- Molobo 16:48, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The recent edits by User:Molobo [31] [32] show an undenyable trait of Anti-Semitism, and thus I recommend this article to be read with utmost care regarding the numerous POVs it contains of his authory. I also suggest extreme caution when reading further contributions by this user. Alexbulg 16:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Please stop from using insults.Portaying a nation as having inbreed natural traits is racism of the worst kind, regardles of who is using it against whom. -- Molobo 17:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
It was already explained to you that there already exists a page for antisemitism in Poland, where your contributions are more fitting. -- Molobo 17:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I already explained you that information about persecution of Jews is fitting into antisemitism article. -- Molobo 17:34, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
(The term) was frequently used as a diversion to deflect directed to Poles accusations of anti-Semitism which were expressed by certain Jewish groups. In what way does this fit in Anti-Semitism and not here? By deleting it, it pretty much looks like you're trying to hide the existence of modern Anti-Semitism in Poland, which is an anti-semitic attitude in itself. Alexbulg 17:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry but I never deleted it but changed its structure as it is presented to show the detailed situation.In fact your accusations are absurd because I was the first to enter the information that extremist circles abuse the term, and created chapter on misuse of the term. -- Molobo 17:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
No you were not. You created only the chapter and put it to the bottom to hide it.
Ekhem I didn't hide.It was quite visible to any user who would read the text. -- Molobo 17:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Yet you deleted all connection between the term and the complaint of Jewsih circles [34]. Please leave your own personal views outside of Wikipedia and let relevant information stay where it belongs, even if it contradicts your views. In fact your accusations are absurd because I was the first to enter the information that extremist circles abuse the term Absurd and false claim: I was the first to do it. In your version, no mention to right wing politics existed. You merely moved it to a different section to suit your own POV of presenting separately the "misuse" of the term to an alleged "reality" that doesn't exist. The term is basically used by said groups, and sometimes (rarely) used outside of them, not the other way around as you presented. So stop hiding relevant and connected information regarding the conections between the users of the term and his Anti-Semitic views, unless you support said Anti-Semitic views. Alexbulg 18:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I put it in the chapter of the misuse of the term. Please leave your own personal views outside of Wikipedia I advise you to do the same. In your version, no mention to right wing politics existed Since they are both leftist and ring wing I see no reason to claim that such views are only part of one political side."So stop hiding relevant and connected information regarding the conections between the users of the term and his Anti-Semitic views, unless you support said Anti-Semitic views." Again there is a page on Antisemitism-you are welcome to edit it to your views, since you seem to be interested more in Antisemitism then Antipolonism.-- Molobo 18:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The matters have a point of connection here, and thus as Alx-pl has said, claiming that it doesn't belong here is only your personal POV. Your attempt to separate them looks pretty much like a diversion to hide every trace of criticism towards anything related to Poland. Alexbulg 18:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Your constant accusations seem make me view critical your neutrality-if the term is misused it should be mentioned in specific chapter, and not spread throughout the whole article. -- Molobo 18:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
And your constant diversions of the point and omission to address critical issues make me be critical towards your neutrality too. I said many times, like other users (many) at this page that the term is not misused; rather, it is almost always used by extremists. If you feel that the rule is in fact the exception, that may only mean that you support the sense of the term assigned by the users of the rule, i.e. the sense given by NOP and the likes. Alexbulg 18:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
All Polish parties and Polish Catholic Church are extremists ? Thank you for showing your POV, but I don't think it should be included. -- Molobo 18:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Those are the rare uses :-) They don't make it a key part of their speech, like extremists do, which is undenyable and has been repeatedly mentioned at this talk page. If that's "my POV", it is also that of nearly every other user who has posted here. On the contrary, your own POV, is only supported by you. Alexbulg 19:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC) Those are the rare uses :-) Those are the important and official uses. "On the contrary, your own POV, is only supported by you" No it is supported by Decleration of Polish Catholic Church, and Polish Parliement Comission for Contacts with Abroad, various scholary works, Jan Józef Lipski etc. -- Molobo 19:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This may be of interest for editors here. Alx-pl D 20:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/wiadomosc.html?kat=1356&wid=8128597&rfbawp=1135120771.499&ticaid=1c19 Polski deputowany do Parlamentu Europejskiego Marcin Libicki (PiS) zamierza zwrócić się do niemieckiego ministerstwa ds. rodziny, seniorów, kobiet i młodzieży z prośbą o interwencję w przypadkach dyskryminowania polskich rodziców przez niemieckie urzędy - poinformował w Berlinie doradca polskiego eurodeputowanego Norbert Napieraj.
Napieraj oraz drugi współpracownik Libickiego, Szymon Szynkowski vel Sęk, rozmawiali wcześniej z przedstawicielami niemieckiego ministerstwa oraz ambasady polskiej. Libicki kieruje komisją petycji Parlamentu Europejskiego.
Jak powiedział dziennikarzom Napieraj, do komisji docierają sygnały od Polaków mieszkających w Niemczech, wskazujące na dyskryminowanie polskich rodziców z małżeństw mieszanych. Grupa rodziców skierowała w tej sprawie petycję do komisji. http://www.nowydzien.pl/nowydzien/1,70091,3084887.html
-- Molobo 23:23, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I reworded the lead a bit...but the rest of the article is still...crap. I started rewriting the next section, but it needs to be almost completely scrapped and started over, this time in English. Also, what is this persistent harping about "Polish death camps"? The only thing I can imagine is that the Poles who are griping about this usage have a very poor grasp of English and fail to understand that it means "death camps in Poland", and that no native English speaker anywhere is stupid enough to think it means "death camps set up by Poles". What this reeks of is Polish-POV-pushing--reinterpreting English usage according to Polish linguistic norms, and then crying "victim!", when, in fact, the entire problem is a failure to understand the original. All your base indeed. Tom e r talk 00:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
"Bismarck and the "Polish Question." Speech to the Lower House of the Prussian Parliament, January 28, 1886. http://h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/speech.html "The intention here is to stifle criticism of an increasingly rigorous anti-Polish government policy, justifying it as an entirely reasonable response to Polish provocation." - Otto von Bismark 72.1.195.4
72.1.195.4 - This is a Public Library computer. -
72.1.195.4
That's the first three paragraphs. Do I have to do this for the entire article? Tom e r talk 00:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Oh hello, me again...I nearly forgot about this gem from the lead...I wasn't sure what to do with it:
It could be removed since it dates back to attempt to delete the article based on allegation that the word doesn't exist. In order to disproved it several research articles have been found(German,English, Russian) that used. The whole indroductory sentence was made to counter those attempts of deletation.Curiously although research papers are given in sources somebody still puts citation needed. Of course the article is vandalised so often its hard to make it surivive.I stoped being interested when it was changed to "polish conspiracy trying to hide polish anti-semitism". I doubt the article is salvageble. -- Molobo 11:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I removed the quote:
As discussed in the Times Literary Supplement:
Indeed, a significant proportion of Polish citizenry remains cocooned in myths of "traditional Polish tolerance" (largely true in the multi-ethnic Kingdom of Poland centuries ago, not much in evidence subsequently) and of Poland as "Christ among nations"-- a chosen people, singularly virtuous and ready to redeem the world in the name of "your and our freedom." For them, anything perceived as a slur on the good name of their country arouses passionate rebuttals and charges of malevolence and "anti-Polonism". In January l994 a young correspondent of Gazeta Wyborcza, Michal Cichy, reported on the case of about 40 Jews killed by a group of Polish fighters during the 1944 Warsaw Uprising. The article, which in no way implied that the insurgents at large committed such outrages, elicited an orgy of protests. A prominent historian, Tomasz Strzembosz, accused Cichy of practicing a "distinct type of racism," and charged his boss, Adam Michnik, of "cultivating a species of tolerance that is absolutely intolerant of antisemitism yet regards anti-Polonism and anti-goyism [sic] as something altogether natural." (Scholars have since then documented many other murders of Jews committed by soldiers of the underground Home Army.) -- Abraham Blumberg, Murder Most Foul, TLS, March 2 2001
The quote is inaccurate and misleading-Cichy has long time ago apologised for making the article seem to indicate Home Army was responsible. The thesis made in the quote is already stated in the article, and the last line of the quote is disputable. -- Molobo 11:49, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Still an object of propaganda. Guess I'll have to deal with the article as soon as I've more time again (or if Molobo should change his aims in Wikipedia). Sciurinæ 16:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)