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I moved the Art of chumbley to external links (Occult art gallery) as it is an external link. Also added a recent article discussing his life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.149.1.195 ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 20 September 2005.
Is the criticism section in this page really approproate or accurate. I have studied this person in some detail and not come across any such criticisms of Chumbleys work. If it should remain perhaps it could be referenced. [30/03/06] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paolo sammut ( talk • contribs).
It is not a case of criticism. It is a case of someone attempting to artificially create a magickal current without any magickal link to a genuine magickal/occult guide. Azoetia is a prime example of pretentious and ill conceived ideas passed off has a legitimate magickal current. Most of this was ripped off from chaos magick techniqiues , Qabbalah , thelema , and even Golden Dawn material. When you look at the final pages of the 2nd edtion of Azoetia you see a copy of the 231 gates taken from traditional Qabbalah. Witchcraft has no business with this. And the spiritual current will take steps to protect itself. This is evidenced in Chumbley's passing.The mistakes of the past are repeating themselves , just has Alex Sanders attempted to create a artificial current with Alexandrian Wicca , so Chumbley repeated the mistakes of the past in artificially creating Cultus Sabbati. It saddens me that his books have gained a reputation since they only have that reputation due to their high prices. And people inflating the books and Chumbley's reputation to sell them at a high price. With regard to his supposed "high standing " in the occult community , this is not the case. Only Wiccans seem to place Chumbley's work in high regard. Most occultist's and hermetic practioners see his work has a retread of Sanders mistakes and literally stealing large chunks of ideas from the Qabbalah and Chaos magick.
Ok point taken. The first reference i wil give is over the use of the traditional Qabbaliah's 231 gates in the final pages of the 2nd edtion of Azoetia. This concept was originally published for the first time by the esteemed Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan in his interpretation and translation of the Sepher Yetzirah (Weiser Books). Before Kaplan no one had ever published this before. The 231 gates is a technique used by very experienced rabbis to gain a closer relationship with G-D. This has absolutely nothing to do with Witchcraft and is a clear case of Plagarism. Simple. When you say that Witchcraft does have business with Qabbalah you are showing disrespect and ignorance to the traditon of Qabbalah developed over the centuries by Rabbis. ( Note not witches?) Secondly a large percentage of Crowleys Thelemic material is original and cant really be cited has plagarised from else where. All his thelemic rituals were of his own hand. So in that context you cant use that argument for Chumbley , who has clearly plagarised material like the 231 gates from a Jewish source ( Sepher Yetzirah : Kaplan)
The second point and reference is over the book Qutub. The book has 72 verses in it , and is clearly a plagarism of the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash. This is the 72 fold name of god taken from the christian bible (Exodus 14;19-21). Again this implies the parasitical nature in Chumbley's work of trying to pass off other legitimate spiritual traditions has his own. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.218.206 ( talk • contribs).
From the Wikipedia article about Aryeh Kaplan: "Rabbi Kaplan once remarked: “I use my physics background to analyze and systematize data, very much as a physicist would deal with physical reality.”' I guess by this Qabbalist's definition of plagiarism, this Rabbi is a plagiarist, too. Physics does not belong with Qabbala as much as Qabbala does not belong with Witches. How dare he use one system to analyse and systemize data in another system! This elevates Chumbley to at least the esteem and status of Aryeh Kaplan using the Qabbalist's logic. Thanks, guy.
I've got 72 matches in my pocket right now, and I promise, they are not a rip-off of the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash. Cross my heart. They do, however, have something to do with a magical working.
The Goetia lists 72 daemons related to Lucifer. And they're not the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash, either. Wait a minute-maybe they are-Solomon was a Jew. Get a grip and get a life. And do some research. Your ignorance is showing.
The mysterymag article is a joke. Let it stand as testament to bad research, innuendo, and name dropping. 20:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
There have been a number of criticisms levelled against Chumbley both in the article and in the discussion pages. The nature of these criticisms makes them sound like they're from a rival witch or witches who would like to promote their own brand of magic over his. I'm not particularly fussed about whether Chumbley was hot stuff or cold custard, but I am fussed if people try to remove information from an article to promote their own biases, prejudices or egos. Please read the Wikipedia policy Neutral point of view.
If you have any criticisms to make, please make them in terms of verifiable facts or else published opinions from reliable sources. For instance, if you want to say "Chumbley's magic was a hodge-podge of other traditions" you need to find a reliable source XXX who holds that opinion and say "XXX is of the opinion that Chumbley's magic is a hodge-podge of other traditions", and provide a reference. Otherwise they will be considered as original research and removed, and your time and spleen will have been wasted. Editing articles well is not hard, you just have to be willing to put a little effort into doing your research and citing your sources.
We take a particularly dim view to the removal of information from articles, such as the mysterymag link which is currently the only external link providing basic biographical details and analysis of his work.
Please remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog for personal attacks. We deal in research and facts, not opinions. Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I think I should state immediately that I am not the person who made the most recent changes to this entry(10/30/06). The latest change (10/30) or removal of information has me thinking. There is no reference given for the former Spare "reference" and in truth I've looked for it after reading it here. I couldn't find it. I wonder at taking out the Chaos magazine attribution, but the further "reference" to Chaos influence within Chumbley's work has no verifiable attribution and is just sort of generally attributed to Chumbley's work. Hearsay and opinion. It should probably stay removed until a verifiable and authoritative source can be found. As a balance, Chumbley contributed quite a few articles to the Witchcraft magazine 'The Cauldron' over a period of at least 10 years. This has never been mentioned here. That magazine is still publishing and has been around for almost 30 years. I think the addition to the OTO membership instructive. Rather than have the removed bits unilaterally reinstated, I thought it might be helpful to carefully asses the removals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The thing is-Spare is thought to be a Chaos practitioner by today's Chaots. He wasn't, of course-he called himself a witch and "Chaos" magic as it (can it be?) is defined wasn't around. I've never found a source wherein Chumbley said he was a Chaos practitioner. He does refer to himself as a witch and Cunningman, though. See his essay 'What is Traditional Craft' and the only known published interview with Chumbley, both originally published in 'The Cauldron' found on the web only at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Witches_Sabbath/ in their files.
Here is a direct link to an essay by Chumbley wherein he describes what he does as witchcraft and cunningcraft. I have never found any assertion by him of being a Chaos pratitioner. http://web.archive.org/web/20050307140707/http://www.occultartgallery.com/occultartgallery/cultus/cultus.html
The mysterymag article, when assessed for content comes up very short. It is simply reitterating hearsay and as the poster above pointed out is a lot of unnuendo. I see the name dropping in the "I almost might have met Chumbley once" bit at the end. Unfortunately, a lot about the article "just misses" as the author just missed meeting Chumbley. The OTO "left under a cloud" bit is surely gossip. Why on earth is it in the article with no attribution? There are no attributions or references given for anything in the article which makes it weak and rather 'sensationalist'. The author wrote a second sensationalistic article about Chumbley here: http://www.mysterymag.com/earthmysteries/index.php?page=article&subID=120&artID=572 An appalling play for fame on another's name, this article is "Little Rascals in a Churchyard" and Chumbley's name is attached with absolutely no reason except that he happened to live in Britain, it appears. This article clearly shows the intention of the author not to express an article of fact, but to produce an article to ride coattails to fame.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.74 ( talk • contribs)
The rub is that there are references, written by him, but they're tightly held by his estate and not made available on the internet-except through the egroup site listed above. It's a hallmark of Chumbley and much of this brand of witchcraft to stay out of the limelight. Those who know anything about the man aren't writing about him because 'it's not done'. This Mysterymag author actually has probably the best there is to offer about Chumbley outside of his inner circle.
If you want to delete his entry because he might not seem notable enough because he was private and preferred to have his writings speak for him, that's up to you. He was a very private man, uninterested in fame, and until someone in his inner circle breaks ranks and writes about him, you're not going to find much. I won't hold my breath. However, the fact that he was a private man doesn't change the fact that he was/is extremely highly regarded within the educated "elite" of witchcraft and you'd probably hear some howls about his removal. Hutton references him in his Triumph of the Moon-favorably. Hutton's a leading light in the educated "elite" in GB, as you probably know. Even Hutton was not allowed to investigate Chumbley's witchcraft world, though. Perhaps a bit in the Wiki article about Hutton's reference to Chumbley in his book might add notability? When all is said and done-who cares? Those who know, know and it doesn't matter whether Chumbley is included in Wikipedia or not in the end.
History will probably place his work within the level of Spare or Crowley, but only time will tell.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The term educated "elite" and Witchcraft really dont belong in the same sentence. Wiccans are spiritual parasites who steal from other traditions since they dont have anything to offer or give themselves. This is why a lot of Wiccans attempt to join hermetic and occult groups. This is reflected in Chumbleys work . The Xoanon books are the realisation of the spiritual and magickal failures of Wiccan based philosophy in Magick and the occult. Since Wicca has failed to provide any magical legitimacy, the Chumbley books are a timely reminder that a real magickal current cant be bought with money or artificially created from other peoples work. Chumbley's passing is a reminder to people who would do this to make a name for themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.52.186 ( talk • contribs)
Gee, Fuzzypeg-"claimed involvement"? See edit re: Hutton. You're pushing me to actually write something of merit, well referenced here, aren't you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The issue over the need for citations and references academically is difficult in Magick and the occult since Magick is subjective and cant really be verified in a academic context. In this context the moderators on Wikipedia are always going to have a problem with Occult postings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.52.186 ( talk • contribs)
This article seems fully referenced now until someone adds more. See p. 306, 308 Triumph of the Moon, Hutton, where Chumbley refutes Hutton's assertion that there was no pre-reconstruction witchcraft. Hutton and Chumbley held each other in high regard, as evidenced in Hutton's introduction wherein he thanked Chumbley for his help with several chapters. 64.12.116.65 17:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a problem with reference #6. Shah's book should be referenced, but a discussion in the reference about an earlier work that is not mentioned or referenced in the article body is inappropriate. That can be in the Shah article.
Only Shah is referenced in the article. Any discussion of Shah pseudonyms is inappropriate on Chumbley's article. That belongs in Shah's article. If investigators are misled by Shah's references, it has absolutely nothing to do with Chumbley and should not be cited on Chumbley's page but instead pursued on Shah's page. Daraul's identity in evaluating Shah's work is Shah's problem, not Chumbley's. Chumbley only referenced Shah. It's not Chumbley's "responsibility" to help investigators figure out Shah's pseudonyms, so why is this on his page?
Also, I made the Eliade reference in the article, as well as most of the others. Then it was changed implying that the Eliade reference makes a clear correspondence between Chumbley's work and gnosticism/tantra, which it does not. As I wrote the sentence is as far as correspondence can be made with that reference. If the sentence is changed, the reference will have to be removed and/or a new one made. If the person who changed the sentence insists on the change, he will have to provide his own reference. I'll lay odds that the person who changed the sentence is not familiar with Eliade's book or how I made the reference correspondence. Shoo! Go do your own research! Hands off mine! 70.106.245.190 00:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I know it's no longer "my research" once posted. My point was/is that when it was changed, it was no longer a valid reference. The person who changed the sentence did not know the reference and therefore the change was done out of ignorance, not research. That's why I said, shoo!
By the way, Henry Corbin is much better for referencing Chumbley's work, but Chumbley only recommended Corbin publicly on now long defunct egroups and there's no referencing it now. And Chumbley never used his own name in egroups. 64.12.116.65 22:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the word syncretic describing Chumbley's philosophy. Syncretic means "reconciliation of conflicting (as in religious) beliefs", "syncretism." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com ( 10 Nov. 2006). Chumbley's philosophy was not syncretic/involving conflicting beliefs within his philosophy. His philosophy involved a reconciliation of beliefs that heralded from a common thread, (see any Eliade book to make correspondences) not from conflicting beliefs.
Eclectic describes Chumbley's philosophy much better than syncretic; "selecting what appears to be best or true in various and diverse doctrines or methods : rejecting a single, unitary, and exclusive interpretation, doctrine, or method : of or relating to eclecticism : "eclectic." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com ( 10 Nov. 2006).
So, if the person who changed the word eclectic to syncretic can give references refuting Eliade's body of work supporting Chumbley's eclectic philosophy, the word might be better changed. This is why I have returned the wording to eclectic. 70.106.245.190 04:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, It was myself that changed 'eclectic' to 'syncretic' - I have done some minor work on the article but forgot to log in - apologies for that. I hear what you're saying re Eliade, but I don't think it necessary to refute his body of work to make such a change. Thanks for typing out the definitions from Webster; I favour Chambers and Oxford. My rationale being that if you practised those disparate forms of religious belief simultaneously, you would likely find some conflicts in the way you applied your belief. What Chumbley's system apparently achieves is a re-alignment and consequent harmonization of systems in the context of practice. The whole thing might be better phrased as, "his method of gathering was eclectic, the system/philosphy he designed is syncretic." Can you see the difference? The reference in the article refers to Chumbley's philosopy, does it not? - not to Chumbley's means of creating that philosophy.
I'm surprised that the reference to Chaos Magic stays in - Chumbley had nothing but disdain for Chaos Magic; his articles were published in 'Chaos Int.' because the editor was impressed by Chumbley and his work while one or two other London-based mags had not become aware of him. 'Chaos Int.' was at the time issued four times a year, and punctually, while others such as 'Starfire' once a year if they could manage it. It was simply a question of the editor 'snapping him up' before others could. It is very difficult indeed to discern any CM influence in Chumbley's work; there are parallels between some of his strategies and those to be found in Pete Carroll's books which were available prior to 1992 (when Azoetia was published), however I think it is far more accurate to say that both Chumbley and Carroll were following a modus operandi established by Aleister Crowley.
By the way, Spare did not describe himself as a 'witch'; his article 'Mind to Mind and How', which was intended for magazine publication, was to be credited 'by a Sorcerer'. All other attributions can be traced to the works of Kenneth Grant. You'll look a very long way to find Spare labelling himself in magical terms at all; to the best of my knowledge, apart from that somewhat ironic article credit, he did not.
Thanks for your fine work Fuzzypeg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reineke ( talk • contribs)
Hello;
No, I don't agree that Chumbley's philosophy is/was syncretic, or "a flagrant compromise in religion or philosophy: eclecticism that is illogical or leads to inconsistency: uncritical acceptance of conflicting or divergent beliefs or principles" as syncretism means. Surely you know that Chumbley not only had an unusual grasp of words and meaning, he also chose his words very carefully. He was also very critical of all that syncretism implies. He had very high standards, was extremely precise in his magical structure and could back up everything he did with critical standards of correspondence.
Syncretic is not the right word to express Chumbley's philosophy. And yes, I do understand the difference between Chumbley's method of gathering and his philosophy, thank-you. Fuzzypeg pointed out that eclectic reminds him of the syncretic co-option of the word by fluffies. That is a shame, and perhaps the word has lost its luster through association. But surely something other than syncretic would be a better description of Chumbley's philosophy. Lulubyrd Lulubyrd 03:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Fuzzypeg. Here is where I got the definition. Main Entry: syn·cre·tism Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: sikrtizm, sink- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): -s Etymology: New Latin syncretismus, from Greek synkrtismos federation of Cretan cities, from synkrtizein to unite against a common enemy 1 : the reconciliation or union of conflicting (as religious) beliefs or an effort intending such; specifically : a movement of a Lutheran party in the 17th century led by George Calixtus seeking the union of Protestant sects with each other and with the Roman Catholic Church 2 : flagrant compromise in religion or philosophy : eclectricism that is illogical or leads to inconsistency : uncritical acceptance of conflicting or divergent beliefs or principles3 : the developmental process of historical growth within a religion by accretion and coalescence of different and often originally conflicting forms of belief and practice through the interaction with or supersession of other religions 4 : the union or fusion into one of two or more originally different inflectional forms
Citation format for this entry:
"syncretism." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (15 Nov. 2006).
No, you don't look stupid, Fuzzypeg. You look knowledgeable and passionate. Not bad for a Fuzzypeg...(this coming from a Lulubyrd)I should have made the attribution in the first place.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I moved the Art of chumbley to external links (Occult art gallery) as it is an external link. Also added a recent article discussing his life. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.149.1.195 ( talk • contribs) 14:59, 20 September 2005.
Is the criticism section in this page really approproate or accurate. I have studied this person in some detail and not come across any such criticisms of Chumbleys work. If it should remain perhaps it could be referenced. [30/03/06] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Paolo sammut ( talk • contribs).
It is not a case of criticism. It is a case of someone attempting to artificially create a magickal current without any magickal link to a genuine magickal/occult guide. Azoetia is a prime example of pretentious and ill conceived ideas passed off has a legitimate magickal current. Most of this was ripped off from chaos magick techniqiues , Qabbalah , thelema , and even Golden Dawn material. When you look at the final pages of the 2nd edtion of Azoetia you see a copy of the 231 gates taken from traditional Qabbalah. Witchcraft has no business with this. And the spiritual current will take steps to protect itself. This is evidenced in Chumbley's passing.The mistakes of the past are repeating themselves , just has Alex Sanders attempted to create a artificial current with Alexandrian Wicca , so Chumbley repeated the mistakes of the past in artificially creating Cultus Sabbati. It saddens me that his books have gained a reputation since they only have that reputation due to their high prices. And people inflating the books and Chumbley's reputation to sell them at a high price. With regard to his supposed "high standing " in the occult community , this is not the case. Only Wiccans seem to place Chumbley's work in high regard. Most occultist's and hermetic practioners see his work has a retread of Sanders mistakes and literally stealing large chunks of ideas from the Qabbalah and Chaos magick.
Ok point taken. The first reference i wil give is over the use of the traditional Qabbaliah's 231 gates in the final pages of the 2nd edtion of Azoetia. This concept was originally published for the first time by the esteemed Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan in his interpretation and translation of the Sepher Yetzirah (Weiser Books). Before Kaplan no one had ever published this before. The 231 gates is a technique used by very experienced rabbis to gain a closer relationship with G-D. This has absolutely nothing to do with Witchcraft and is a clear case of Plagarism. Simple. When you say that Witchcraft does have business with Qabbalah you are showing disrespect and ignorance to the traditon of Qabbalah developed over the centuries by Rabbis. ( Note not witches?) Secondly a large percentage of Crowleys Thelemic material is original and cant really be cited has plagarised from else where. All his thelemic rituals were of his own hand. So in that context you cant use that argument for Chumbley , who has clearly plagarised material like the 231 gates from a Jewish source ( Sepher Yetzirah : Kaplan)
The second point and reference is over the book Qutub. The book has 72 verses in it , and is clearly a plagarism of the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash. This is the 72 fold name of god taken from the christian bible (Exodus 14;19-21). Again this implies the parasitical nature in Chumbley's work of trying to pass off other legitimate spiritual traditions has his own. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.218.206 ( talk • contribs).
From the Wikipedia article about Aryeh Kaplan: "Rabbi Kaplan once remarked: “I use my physics background to analyze and systematize data, very much as a physicist would deal with physical reality.”' I guess by this Qabbalist's definition of plagiarism, this Rabbi is a plagiarist, too. Physics does not belong with Qabbala as much as Qabbala does not belong with Witches. How dare he use one system to analyse and systemize data in another system! This elevates Chumbley to at least the esteem and status of Aryeh Kaplan using the Qabbalist's logic. Thanks, guy.
I've got 72 matches in my pocket right now, and I promise, they are not a rip-off of the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash. Cross my heart. They do, however, have something to do with a magical working.
The Goetia lists 72 daemons related to Lucifer. And they're not the Qabbalistic 72 divine names of the Shem ha-Mephorash, either. Wait a minute-maybe they are-Solomon was a Jew. Get a grip and get a life. And do some research. Your ignorance is showing.
The mysterymag article is a joke. Let it stand as testament to bad research, innuendo, and name dropping. 20:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
There have been a number of criticisms levelled against Chumbley both in the article and in the discussion pages. The nature of these criticisms makes them sound like they're from a rival witch or witches who would like to promote their own brand of magic over his. I'm not particularly fussed about whether Chumbley was hot stuff or cold custard, but I am fussed if people try to remove information from an article to promote their own biases, prejudices or egos. Please read the Wikipedia policy Neutral point of view.
If you have any criticisms to make, please make them in terms of verifiable facts or else published opinions from reliable sources. For instance, if you want to say "Chumbley's magic was a hodge-podge of other traditions" you need to find a reliable source XXX who holds that opinion and say "XXX is of the opinion that Chumbley's magic is a hodge-podge of other traditions", and provide a reference. Otherwise they will be considered as original research and removed, and your time and spleen will have been wasted. Editing articles well is not hard, you just have to be willing to put a little effort into doing your research and citing your sources.
We take a particularly dim view to the removal of information from articles, such as the mysterymag link which is currently the only external link providing basic biographical details and analysis of his work.
Please remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a blog for personal attacks. We deal in research and facts, not opinions. Thanks, Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I think I should state immediately that I am not the person who made the most recent changes to this entry(10/30/06). The latest change (10/30) or removal of information has me thinking. There is no reference given for the former Spare "reference" and in truth I've looked for it after reading it here. I couldn't find it. I wonder at taking out the Chaos magazine attribution, but the further "reference" to Chaos influence within Chumbley's work has no verifiable attribution and is just sort of generally attributed to Chumbley's work. Hearsay and opinion. It should probably stay removed until a verifiable and authoritative source can be found. As a balance, Chumbley contributed quite a few articles to the Witchcraft magazine 'The Cauldron' over a period of at least 10 years. This has never been mentioned here. That magazine is still publishing and has been around for almost 30 years. I think the addition to the OTO membership instructive. Rather than have the removed bits unilaterally reinstated, I thought it might be helpful to carefully asses the removals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The thing is-Spare is thought to be a Chaos practitioner by today's Chaots. He wasn't, of course-he called himself a witch and "Chaos" magic as it (can it be?) is defined wasn't around. I've never found a source wherein Chumbley said he was a Chaos practitioner. He does refer to himself as a witch and Cunningman, though. See his essay 'What is Traditional Craft' and the only known published interview with Chumbley, both originally published in 'The Cauldron' found on the web only at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Witches_Sabbath/ in their files.
Here is a direct link to an essay by Chumbley wherein he describes what he does as witchcraft and cunningcraft. I have never found any assertion by him of being a Chaos pratitioner. http://web.archive.org/web/20050307140707/http://www.occultartgallery.com/occultartgallery/cultus/cultus.html
The mysterymag article, when assessed for content comes up very short. It is simply reitterating hearsay and as the poster above pointed out is a lot of unnuendo. I see the name dropping in the "I almost might have met Chumbley once" bit at the end. Unfortunately, a lot about the article "just misses" as the author just missed meeting Chumbley. The OTO "left under a cloud" bit is surely gossip. Why on earth is it in the article with no attribution? There are no attributions or references given for anything in the article which makes it weak and rather 'sensationalist'. The author wrote a second sensationalistic article about Chumbley here: http://www.mysterymag.com/earthmysteries/index.php?page=article&subID=120&artID=572 An appalling play for fame on another's name, this article is "Little Rascals in a Churchyard" and Chumbley's name is attached with absolutely no reason except that he happened to live in Britain, it appears. This article clearly shows the intention of the author not to express an article of fact, but to produce an article to ride coattails to fame.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.74 ( talk • contribs)
The rub is that there are references, written by him, but they're tightly held by his estate and not made available on the internet-except through the egroup site listed above. It's a hallmark of Chumbley and much of this brand of witchcraft to stay out of the limelight. Those who know anything about the man aren't writing about him because 'it's not done'. This Mysterymag author actually has probably the best there is to offer about Chumbley outside of his inner circle.
If you want to delete his entry because he might not seem notable enough because he was private and preferred to have his writings speak for him, that's up to you. He was a very private man, uninterested in fame, and until someone in his inner circle breaks ranks and writes about him, you're not going to find much. I won't hold my breath. However, the fact that he was a private man doesn't change the fact that he was/is extremely highly regarded within the educated "elite" of witchcraft and you'd probably hear some howls about his removal. Hutton references him in his Triumph of the Moon-favorably. Hutton's a leading light in the educated "elite" in GB, as you probably know. Even Hutton was not allowed to investigate Chumbley's witchcraft world, though. Perhaps a bit in the Wiki article about Hutton's reference to Chumbley in his book might add notability? When all is said and done-who cares? Those who know, know and it doesn't matter whether Chumbley is included in Wikipedia or not in the end.
History will probably place his work within the level of Spare or Crowley, but only time will tell.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The term educated "elite" and Witchcraft really dont belong in the same sentence. Wiccans are spiritual parasites who steal from other traditions since they dont have anything to offer or give themselves. This is why a lot of Wiccans attempt to join hermetic and occult groups. This is reflected in Chumbleys work . The Xoanon books are the realisation of the spiritual and magickal failures of Wiccan based philosophy in Magick and the occult. Since Wicca has failed to provide any magical legitimacy, the Chumbley books are a timely reminder that a real magickal current cant be bought with money or artificially created from other peoples work. Chumbley's passing is a reminder to people who would do this to make a name for themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.52.186 ( talk • contribs)
Gee, Fuzzypeg-"claimed involvement"? See edit re: Hutton. You're pushing me to actually write something of merit, well referenced here, aren't you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.65 ( talk • contribs)
The issue over the need for citations and references academically is difficult in Magick and the occult since Magick is subjective and cant really be verified in a academic context. In this context the moderators on Wikipedia are always going to have a problem with Occult postings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.52.186 ( talk • contribs)
This article seems fully referenced now until someone adds more. See p. 306, 308 Triumph of the Moon, Hutton, where Chumbley refutes Hutton's assertion that there was no pre-reconstruction witchcraft. Hutton and Chumbley held each other in high regard, as evidenced in Hutton's introduction wherein he thanked Chumbley for his help with several chapters. 64.12.116.65 17:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a problem with reference #6. Shah's book should be referenced, but a discussion in the reference about an earlier work that is not mentioned or referenced in the article body is inappropriate. That can be in the Shah article.
Only Shah is referenced in the article. Any discussion of Shah pseudonyms is inappropriate on Chumbley's article. That belongs in Shah's article. If investigators are misled by Shah's references, it has absolutely nothing to do with Chumbley and should not be cited on Chumbley's page but instead pursued on Shah's page. Daraul's identity in evaluating Shah's work is Shah's problem, not Chumbley's. Chumbley only referenced Shah. It's not Chumbley's "responsibility" to help investigators figure out Shah's pseudonyms, so why is this on his page?
Also, I made the Eliade reference in the article, as well as most of the others. Then it was changed implying that the Eliade reference makes a clear correspondence between Chumbley's work and gnosticism/tantra, which it does not. As I wrote the sentence is as far as correspondence can be made with that reference. If the sentence is changed, the reference will have to be removed and/or a new one made. If the person who changed the sentence insists on the change, he will have to provide his own reference. I'll lay odds that the person who changed the sentence is not familiar with Eliade's book or how I made the reference correspondence. Shoo! Go do your own research! Hands off mine! 70.106.245.190 00:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I know it's no longer "my research" once posted. My point was/is that when it was changed, it was no longer a valid reference. The person who changed the sentence did not know the reference and therefore the change was done out of ignorance, not research. That's why I said, shoo!
By the way, Henry Corbin is much better for referencing Chumbley's work, but Chumbley only recommended Corbin publicly on now long defunct egroups and there's no referencing it now. And Chumbley never used his own name in egroups. 64.12.116.65 22:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the word syncretic describing Chumbley's philosophy. Syncretic means "reconciliation of conflicting (as in religious) beliefs", "syncretism." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com ( 10 Nov. 2006). Chumbley's philosophy was not syncretic/involving conflicting beliefs within his philosophy. His philosophy involved a reconciliation of beliefs that heralded from a common thread, (see any Eliade book to make correspondences) not from conflicting beliefs.
Eclectic describes Chumbley's philosophy much better than syncretic; "selecting what appears to be best or true in various and diverse doctrines or methods : rejecting a single, unitary, and exclusive interpretation, doctrine, or method : of or relating to eclecticism : "eclectic." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com ( 10 Nov. 2006).
So, if the person who changed the word eclectic to syncretic can give references refuting Eliade's body of work supporting Chumbley's eclectic philosophy, the word might be better changed. This is why I have returned the wording to eclectic. 70.106.245.190 04:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Greetings, It was myself that changed 'eclectic' to 'syncretic' - I have done some minor work on the article but forgot to log in - apologies for that. I hear what you're saying re Eliade, but I don't think it necessary to refute his body of work to make such a change. Thanks for typing out the definitions from Webster; I favour Chambers and Oxford. My rationale being that if you practised those disparate forms of religious belief simultaneously, you would likely find some conflicts in the way you applied your belief. What Chumbley's system apparently achieves is a re-alignment and consequent harmonization of systems in the context of practice. The whole thing might be better phrased as, "his method of gathering was eclectic, the system/philosphy he designed is syncretic." Can you see the difference? The reference in the article refers to Chumbley's philosopy, does it not? - not to Chumbley's means of creating that philosophy.
I'm surprised that the reference to Chaos Magic stays in - Chumbley had nothing but disdain for Chaos Magic; his articles were published in 'Chaos Int.' because the editor was impressed by Chumbley and his work while one or two other London-based mags had not become aware of him. 'Chaos Int.' was at the time issued four times a year, and punctually, while others such as 'Starfire' once a year if they could manage it. It was simply a question of the editor 'snapping him up' before others could. It is very difficult indeed to discern any CM influence in Chumbley's work; there are parallels between some of his strategies and those to be found in Pete Carroll's books which were available prior to 1992 (when Azoetia was published), however I think it is far more accurate to say that both Chumbley and Carroll were following a modus operandi established by Aleister Crowley.
By the way, Spare did not describe himself as a 'witch'; his article 'Mind to Mind and How', which was intended for magazine publication, was to be credited 'by a Sorcerer'. All other attributions can be traced to the works of Kenneth Grant. You'll look a very long way to find Spare labelling himself in magical terms at all; to the best of my knowledge, apart from that somewhat ironic article credit, he did not.
Thanks for your fine work Fuzzypeg. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reineke ( talk • contribs)
Hello;
No, I don't agree that Chumbley's philosophy is/was syncretic, or "a flagrant compromise in religion or philosophy: eclecticism that is illogical or leads to inconsistency: uncritical acceptance of conflicting or divergent beliefs or principles" as syncretism means. Surely you know that Chumbley not only had an unusual grasp of words and meaning, he also chose his words very carefully. He was also very critical of all that syncretism implies. He had very high standards, was extremely precise in his magical structure and could back up everything he did with critical standards of correspondence.
Syncretic is not the right word to express Chumbley's philosophy. And yes, I do understand the difference between Chumbley's method of gathering and his philosophy, thank-you. Fuzzypeg pointed out that eclectic reminds him of the syncretic co-option of the word by fluffies. That is a shame, and perhaps the word has lost its luster through association. But surely something other than syncretic would be a better description of Chumbley's philosophy. Lulubyrd Lulubyrd 03:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello Fuzzypeg. Here is where I got the definition. Main Entry: syn·cre·tism Pronunciation Guide Pronunciation: sikrtizm, sink- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): -s Etymology: New Latin syncretismus, from Greek synkrtismos federation of Cretan cities, from synkrtizein to unite against a common enemy 1 : the reconciliation or union of conflicting (as religious) beliefs or an effort intending such; specifically : a movement of a Lutheran party in the 17th century led by George Calixtus seeking the union of Protestant sects with each other and with the Roman Catholic Church 2 : flagrant compromise in religion or philosophy : eclectricism that is illogical or leads to inconsistency : uncritical acceptance of conflicting or divergent beliefs or principles3 : the developmental process of historical growth within a religion by accretion and coalescence of different and often originally conflicting forms of belief and practice through the interaction with or supersession of other religions 4 : the union or fusion into one of two or more originally different inflectional forms
Citation format for this entry:
"syncretism." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (15 Nov. 2006).
No, you don't look stupid, Fuzzypeg. You look knowledgeable and passionate. Not bad for a Fuzzypeg...(this coming from a Lulubyrd)I should have made the attribution in the first place.
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